Philippine Dagger Just Ended On Ebay

[Robert]

Nice Philippine dagger with a very unusual guard. Thank you Steve for pointing this out to me. Looks like a lot of the turtle shell is missing off the scabbard. Will know more of were in the Philippines when it arrives and I can see the end of the grip. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320335226772&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR4 0%26_trksid%3Dm38%26_nkw%3D320335226772%26_sacat%3 DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1
Comments are welcomed on this especially on the guard and its possible use in fighting. :confused: Will post new pictures when it arrives.

Robert

Here are the pictures from the auction.

[Atlantia]

Looks really nice mate!
Certainly going to be amongst friends in your collection :)
Definately post some pics when it arrives!


Gene

[Robert]

Thank You for your interest Gene. Yes, it will have new friends when it arrives, :D including a straight bladed brother with the same style of scabbard. Will post pictures as soon as it arrives and as has been cleaned of the rust on the blade. Any thoughts on the strange shape of the guard? Something else that is odd about this, the hilt looks to be off-set and not centered to the blade. I've seen this quite a bit on Philippine swords and knives that are of Spanish influence in their design but this is the first dagger I've seen like this. :confused: Comments anyone ?

Robert

[Atlantia]

Hi Robert.
Well these are completely out of my experience, so I'm just an interested admirer, but the guard looks like its been made as a tool. One side elongated and pointed the other shorter broader and flattened.
Could it be old enough to have been used alongside muzzle loaders?
A little spike and flat screwdriver could be useful?

Just a wild guess :shrug:

Regards
Gene

[Dimasalang]

Very nice! Nice price too.

I hope and pray I can find a Philippine dagger like this someday. Why cant I ever get this lucky... sigh...

[Robert]

Gene, Going by the pictures I would only estimate the age of this dagger to be first quarter 20th century at best and more likely the second quarter. I will know more when it arrives. What still looks odd in the pictures is that if the hilt is off-set it looks like it was designed to be held with the pointed side of the guard pointing down or out (fingers side) and the shorter side (thumb side) pointing up or in. Most daggers with straight guards that I've seen seem to be designed to be griped ether way.

Dimasalang, Thank you very much for your kind words. If this had not been pointed out to me by another member of this forum I might have overlooked it myself. :eek: There are still probably quite a few of these out there so you should be able to find one. Good luck in the hunt and when you do find one please post pictures. :D Thank you both again for you interest.

Robert

[Atlantia]

yes bud, I completely agree about the handle.
What are your thoughts on the spike?

[Robert]

No really sure at all. Maybe to rake or gouge with? I was hoping that some of the other members trained in the fighting arts might be able to help out on this.

Robert

[t_c]

Great dagger Robert! In my FMA experience, I have never been shown any specific techniques using a pointed guard (maybe someone else has been though), otherwise I think you are right on: gouge/rake/poke ideas. Sharp and pointy can always be useful, if even just for the incidentals. It definitely adds interest to the piece, and I'm thinking that it probably has more to do with the artistic application of available materials than actually improving on the weapon - can you really improve on a blade like that!? :) Either way, a really nice dagger!

[Battara]

This is an Ilocano dagger. May have been used in a form similar to espada y daga.

[Robert]

Thank you for the identification Jose. I was waiting for it to arrive before posting my thoughts on its origin and who possible made it. Because of not being as knowledgeable as you and others on the forum, I wanted to see the end of the hilt before making my determination. :o What are your thoughts on the age of this piece? I was thinking either first or second quarter of the 20th century and hoping for the first. :D Thank you again for your help and interest.

Robert

[Battara]

As far as age is concerned, I would rather wait for better pictures.

[Robert]

Well here are a few more picture. I'm not sure how much better they are though as I was having problems getting any to come out right. The pommel on this is closed ended (the tang does not go through) which seems unusual if this is from Luzon. The guard is steel or iron and the rest of the fittings including the drag on the scabbard are brass. Now that I have the dagger in hand the strange shape of the guard is still a mystery to me. Looks to me that only one section of the turtle shell on the scabbard is actually missing. When I originally looked at it in the auction pictures I thought the entire scabbard might have been covered with it at one time. The grip is well worn wood and you can see in one of the pictures it is actually octagonal in shape and not round as it looks in the original pictures.
Jose, what are your thoughts on the age of this dagger? I'm leaning towards early 20th century myself. My thanks to everyone for your all your interest and help.
Robert

[t_c]

Robert is it possible that the guard is made from the base of an old file?
If the dagger was part of an espada y daga (sword and dagger) set, then it was intended to be used as a left-hand weapon and the longer guard may have been designed to serve as a "shelf" of sorts to help pass or parry the opponent's weapon, similar in idea to a main-gauche (hope that takes some of the mystery out of it).

[Ferguson]

This may be stupid, but could the guard be used as a pick for the touchhole of a cannon or lantaka?

I think I've seen a guard like that before, but can't remember.

Steve

[Battara]

Robert, I would agree with you about the age. Although unusual for a Luzon piece, I have seen end caps on Ilocano daggers before. In fact, my Ilocano piece has a brass end cap.

The cross guard is strange - no idea.

[Robert]

T_C, It very well could be made from a file. When new and sharp files are used in the shaping and finishing of blades and then when old and dull they are often made into blades and other parts. Waste not want not. :D
Steve, I think you and Gene both might be on to something. He earlier said "The guard looks like its been made as a tool. One side elongated and pointed the other shorter broader and flattened. Could it be old enough to have been used alongside muzzle loaders?" And now your idea "Could the guard be used as a pick for the touchhole of a cannon or lantaka?" Very interesting ideas.

Robert

[Atlantia]

This may be stupid, but could the guard be used as a pick for the touchhole of a cannon or lantaka?

I think I've seen a guard like that before, but can't remember.

Steve



Hi Steve,
Thats what I was infering in my earlier post. In the ebay pictures it looks like a pick and flat screwdriver, but these closeups show the short side is more just a larger spike.
What made me think the long spike was a tool rather than a offensive is that it seems to be a uniform width for a fair proportion of its length, as though its meant to push into something. (like to clear a touch hole)
Unless we are being too weapon orientated, and it has a civilian use like piercing through the thick skin of some fruit, coconut or similar?

I think it looks great in the new pictures! Better than the ebay ones made it look. Bargain methinks.

:)
Gene

[Atlantia]

T_C, It very well could be made from a file. When new and sharp files are used in the shaping and finishing of blades and then when old and dull they are often made into blades and other parts. Waste not want not. :D
Steve, I think you and Gene both might be on to something. He earlier said "The guard looks like its been made as a tool. One side elongated and pointed the other shorter broader and flattened. Could it be old enough to have been used alongside muzzle loaders?" And now your idea "Could the guard be used as a pick for the touchhole of a cannon or lantaka?" Very interesting ideas.

Robert


Hi Robert
Just seen the new pictures!

It looks fabulous :D congratulations on a nice addition to your collection.
Gene

[Robert]

Hi Robert
Just seen the new pictures!

It looks fabulous :D congratulations on a nice addition to your collection.
Gene

Thank you Gene. For me to say that I am extremely pleased with it would be an understatement !! :D Here is a picture of it resting with a few of its new friends.

Robert