16th/17th century chain shot [Archive] - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Pukka Bundook

28th December 2008, 04:06 PM

M ELEY

2nd January 2009, 05:25 AM

Awesome piece, and I am also surprised by the early dating on this piece. True, they could take out rigging, but also personnel. During one of the many wars between Spain and England, one Englsi captain was cut in half by a fired piece of chain-shot. I remember the reference, but not the exact battle. The indented protrusions fit into the depressions just long enough to hold the two halves together prior to firing. Once in the air, they of course separated for maximal damage. Green with envy on this piece...

kisak

2nd January 2009, 01:42 PM

Regarding the dating, here's some chain and bar shot from a ship which sank in Stockholm somewhere around the late 15th/early 16th century. Picture taken at Stockholm's Medieval Museum.

broadaxe

2nd January 2009, 06:06 PM

Very interesting. Kisak, the ship is the Vasa that sunk at 1628. Chainshots (and barshots!) recovered from the Vasa were clearly not a new thing by that period, thus taking the invention a little more back in time. Although no scale or dimensions I assume the chainshots are in between 6 to 8 pounds, check the chains themselves: the one in the 1st pic is significantly longer than the chains from the Vasa, the latter have only 3 links each. The longer the chain - the wider the spread.
The eternal excavations in the city of Acre, Israel, have revealed tons of cannon projectiles from the Napoleon siege of 1799, including chainshots and barshots, but the most common are small solid balls (1/2 & 1 pound) from canister/grape shots.

kisak

3rd January 2009, 03:29 PM

Very interesting. Kisak, the ship is the Vasa that sunk at 1628.

No, the ship in question here was a considerably smaller vessel, dated to the late 14th century (the stocks for the four cannons aboard where late 15th though, so it had been around fora while before it sank), which sank between the Old Town and Riddarholmen.

broadaxe

3rd January 2009, 07:29 PM

No, the ship in question here was a considerably smaller vessel, dated to the late 14th century (the stocks for the four cannons aboard where late 15th though, so it had been around fora while before it sank), which sank between the Old Town and Riddarholmen.

Wow, I wasn't aware of another sunken ship museum in the same place. :cool:

kisak

3rd January 2009, 08:37 PM

Well, it is an old port city... Though in the case of this ship the museum hasn't been built around it like the Vasa museum, it's just one of many items in their collections.

Matchlock

5th January 2009, 09:01 PM

I know you are a busy chap, Michael,

But are the indentations in the split shot there to recieve musket balls,...to hold the two halves 'square' 'til they leave the muzzle?

I am a little surprised at the early date for this, having only seen 18th century types, joined with chain as here, or with the bars.

Though designed for taking out rigging, one flying a bit low would certainly take out one's personal 'rigging' in a rather horrendous manner!

Best wishes,

R.
On looking again, I think the 'holes' in one side are in fact studs protruding. Makes much more sense, and answers my dumb question!

Hi Richard,

Please forgive my not answering back any earlier.

Your question was not dumb in any way. Your first guess was correct: there are holes and studs respectively to hold the two halves 'square'.

These have been in use since at least the 16th thru the 19th century. They are hard to date but as nothing has been added to the Hohensalzburg armory after the 17th century we have a terminus ante quem.

Best wishes,
m

Matchlock

7th January 2009, 04:33 PM

Mark,

I sent you a private message.

Michael

M ELEY

7th January 2009, 09:39 PM

Thanks, Michael! :)

Jim McDougall

19th January 2009, 10:09 PM

Interesting stuff here!! I had heard of all manner of assorted items being fired out of cannon in naval melee's in early battles, and of the chain shot as well. It is interesting to see actual examples as shown by Michael, and those by Kisak.
I am always astounded by the severe damage done by low velocity shot and material, as my limited exposure to understanding ballistics always assumes that the high velocity was essential to carry out the end result. To see an object moving at a speed it could actually be seen moving through the air is surprising that it could sever bodies and so on. Obviously, that was the case, except perhaps when the projectile was well spent.
Many years ago, I found an old account from a grandfather who had fought in the Civil War, when asked if he was ever wounded, as he fought in a well actioned unit in many battles and campaigns. His dry and folksy reply, "..well I got hit by a cannon ball once, but didnt hurt me none". !!

All best regards,
Jim

Matchlock

21st January 2009, 11:28 PM

I cannot but bow down before that really cool and grand grandfather, Jim! :) ;)

m

Matchlock

18th February 2009, 03:06 PM

Retaining its original blackened surface.

Michael

M ELEY

19th February 2009, 09:20 AM

Nice piece, Michael. I'm surprised at the relatively small size of these pieces. I guess I always assumed they had much longer chains and were of a heavier weight. There were much later variations of chain shot created in the mid-19th century that were larger and made for more of an "anti-personnel" effect. It was shot out of a double cannon barrel (think shotgun) at troops. Apparently, it had very mixed effects. Anyway, thanks for posting. Do you have any barshot close-ups. It would be interesting to compare...

Matchlock

19th February 2009, 02:03 PM

Hi there,

Unfortunately I do not have bar shot as I am not really much into artillery.

Michael

Matchlock

19th February 2009, 02:09 PM

You asked for pics of bar shot so here they are (from the web).

Michael

Matchlock

19th February 2009, 02:21 PM

Hope I did not post these before. :eek:

Michael

archer

20th February 2009, 04:26 PM

M Eley mentions the use of double barreled cannon for large chain shot. I wondered about how the split chain shot was loaded in a single bore chain ahead or trailing. I would think that improper loading could destroy the cannon and would surely raise heck with even a smooth bore.

Steve

M ELEY

21st February 2009, 03:00 AM

Matchlock

21st February 2009, 03:16 PM

Hi there,

These charmingly nice things invented for maximum cruelty can be found in contemoprary illustrations in 16th and 17th century books on fireworks and artillery, e.g.
Hans Georg Schirvatt: Kunst- u. Artilleriebuch, 1622, Cod. icon. 232, Bavarian State Library Munich.

Michael

Matchlock

21st February 2009, 03:27 PM

The title page dated 1622.

m

Matchlock

24th February 2009, 11:18 PM

This one was sold at a German auction in September 2008.

Cal. 9 cm, length overall 62 cm.

Michael

Jim McDougall

25th February 2009, 05:20 AM

Thanks Michael for posting that pic from the web. You are a better web-searcher than I am, because I haven't been able to find many pics of chain or bar-shot.

Steve, I have also wondered that same question many times. It would seem the force of the blast would have broken these relatively delicate-looking chains. Perhaps the chains were wrapped in protective material that would come apart in flight? Or perhaps the charge used wasn't as powerful due to it being more of a close-range shot? I have heard that hot shot was fired using low charge so that the ball would embed into the decking and burn rather than shoot right through. Comments about this, anyone? Anyway,check out the following link about what I mentioned concerning the anti-personnel chain shot. Rather interesting, if ineffective :rolleyes:

www.batteryb.com/double-barreled_cannon.html

Interesting thoughts Mark! It seems that I have seen references noting that the chains did in fact come apart or shatter in many cases, creating a notably gruesome cluster of shrapnel, but often not carrying out the scything effect intended with the whirling projectiles.
I would think also that brittle iron in these might account for such shattering and separating effects with these joined cannon balls crashing into the chain at ignition. If the chain was draped outside the barrel as suggested, the force of the cannonballs would seem to tear loose the attachments.

These obviously produced for effect chained cannonball projectiles seem like they must have been used as described, but with low charges and very close range. It would be interesting to hear narrated accounts of these weapons as actually used.

All best regards,
Jim

Michael, in rereading this thread I just noticed your kind comments on my grandfather, thank you! :) He sounded like quite a character, and was still being interviewed as a Civil War veteran in the late 1930's, he died at 102.

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock

25th February 2009, 06:57 PM

Matchlock

25th February 2009, 07:19 PM

Various chain shot, all from Dudley Pope's highly recommendable book Guns, 1965.

Michael

fernando

25th February 2009, 08:09 PM

Michael, you have made my day :eek: .

Various chain shot, all from Dudley Pope's highly recommendable book Guns, 1965.
Michael

I've got that one; the French edition ... nobody's perfect :shrug: .
Having a book recommended by you is an added value :cool: .
Fernando

Matchlock

25th February 2009, 08:18 PM

Thanks a lot, Fernando, that praise of yours does me so good. :cool: :eek:

I got the German version. :shrug:

Michael

M ELEY

28th February 2009, 02:30 AM

Jim,
thanks for replying and seconding the theory of a lower powder charge for the chainshot to achieve its goal. It seems to make sense that it was used this way. Either way, it was a horrible projectile if you got in its way. One of the English admirals was cut in half by a french chainshot during one of their many naval battles back in the 17th century.

Michael,
Thank you so much for posting these amazing pics. Although I'm not much into munitions, I've always been fascinated in these 'specialty' shots for taking out rigging (and personnel). I've seen sketches of the above shot, but never the real pics. Fernando is right. I've got to ge me a copy of that Dudley Pope book! Thanks again!
-Mark

Jim McDougall

28th February 2009, 04:02 AM

Thanks Mark,
It has always seemed so interesting to me that there could be such force in low velocity dynamics concerning ballistics. To think that a projectile moving at a speed where it could easily be seen could have the ability to inflict such gruesome effect.
In combat between ships it seems that just before boarding, a volley was often fired to create confusion on deck, so lesser charge would be needed with the vessels closing. This shot would bring down rigging etc. to add to the confusion. ....at least thats what my pirate manual says :) but then them's just guidelines, right?

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY

28th February 2009, 08:29 AM

'Pirate manual', aye? I always knew you were a true scalawag, Jim! :D :eek:

I was wondering if anyone with knowlegde of munitions has any concrete stories or historical references to portable coehorn cannons being taken to sea. In Gilkerson's 'Borders Away II', he seems to discourage the idea that a short-range portable mortar that fired an anti-personnel shell that dispersed grapeshot had much use in naval battles. Yet, many books mention coehorns and mention their use. True, it might have been a limited bombardment with two ships near each other and one basically lobbing shells onto the others' deck. Let's face it, the whole purpose of the 'fighting tops' was to kill as many of the enemy sailors on their decks as bullets would allow. Likewise, thrown grenadoes had the same effect. So why not a coehorn shell? Gilkerson says (I'm quoting from memory, so I might be wrong) that the fire produced from the blast could have set fire to the rigging, but this explanation seems weak, considering the use of swival guns, which also produced flame. Perhaps it was the unpredictability of the scattering of grape? With the swivals and cannon, the shot would have been directed directly at the enemy ship, whereas the lobbed coehorn shell came down and exploded, sending projectiles in every direction. Thoughts, anyone?

fernando

28th February 2009, 01:33 PM

... I've seen sketches of the above shot, but never the real pics...

I've seen at least a real one in 'person', in the Oporto Military museum; just don't know how old it was :shrug: .
Fernando

.

M ELEY

2nd March 2009, 04:10 AM

Bump. Anyone comments on coehorns at sea?

More shot...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Different_types_of_cannon_balls_Vasa.jpg

Matchlock

4th March 2009, 05:30 PM

PRO E36/13, pp.55-62: Inventory of the Mary Rose, 27 July 1514

Ordnance, artillery & habillaments (implements) of war left in the said ship in the charge and custody of John Browne master, & John Bryarley purser, of the same, by indenture as is aforesaid, that is to say - (margin)

Great curtows of brass 5
Murderers of brass 2
Chambers to the same 3
Falcons of brass 2
Falconets of brass 3
Great murderers of iron 1
Chambers to the same 1
Murderers of iron of another sort 2
Chambers to the same 4
Cast pieces of iron 2
Chambers to the same 4
Murderers of iron of another sort 1
Chambers to the same 2
Slings of iron called demi-slings 2
Chambers to the same 4
Stone-guns 26
Top-guns 3
Chambers to the same 75
Serpentines of iron 28
Chambers to the same 107
Forelocks for stone-guns, top-guns and serpentines 94
Myches (swivels) to the same 80
Stone shot, great and small 500
A little gun of brass without (a) chamber 1
Hammers for guns 13
Picks for stone 22
Heads for arrows of wildfire 8
Hocks for arrows of wildfire 29
Strings 600
Bags of leather 9
Parchment skins 20
Lead - 2.25 sows and certain cast (lead) Charging ladles of copper 2
Ladles of iron for casting pellets 2
Bolts of iron 17

Bows 20
Arrows 20
Bills (pole weapons) 20

Artillery and habillaments of war delivered to John Millet & Thomas Elderton by bill signed by with the hands of the foresaid commissioners, that is to say - (margin)

Hacbusshes (muskets) 91
Iron shot of divers sorts 457
Iron shot with cross-bars 120
Lead pellets, great and small 1000
Pellets for hacbusshes 900
Iron dice (for shot) 1500
Arrows of wildfire (incendiaries) 74
Balls of wildfire 2
Salets (helmets) 180
Breast(-plates) 206
Gorgets (armoured neck pieces) 146
Splints (leg armour) 172 pairs
Gun-powder 21.5 barrels
Gun-powder cartridges 1 chest-full
Charging-ladles for falcons and curtows 7
Sponges to the same 6
Stamps 3
Iron crow(-bars) 14
Bows of yew 123
Chests to the same 2
Arrows 504 sheaves
Chests to the same 11
Bills 218
Stakes for the field (pointed wooden stakes) 149
Morris pikes 159

From

http://www.maryrose.org/project/index.html

Michael

Matchlock

4th March 2009, 06:07 PM

Bump. Anyone comments on coehorns at sea?

More shot...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Different_types_of_cannon_balls_Vasa.jpg

Thanks a lot for that important link, Mark!:)

I hope you do not object to my posting that image of various shot found on the Vasa, which sank in 1628.

Thanks again,
Michael

Matchlock

4th March 2009, 06:25 PM

Mark,

Here is a link to some very cheap copies of Dudley Pope's Guns at abebooks.com:

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/p/dudley-pope/guns.htm

Michael

M ELEY

5th March 2009, 09:22 AM

Michael,
Thank you so much for the link to the Dudley Pope book. Just purchased a copy. Thanks, also, for the extensive ordenance listing from the Mary Rose. I am frankly surprised at some of the items on that list being ordenance and not merchandise being shipped. In the later years of "Fighting Sail", with the exception of cutlass, muskets, pike, axes and of course, cannon and shot, there was little else carried for battle. In this early listing, we see breastplates, slings, arrows, and even those implements needed to make more shot, etc. Very interesting.
Yes, the Vasa is incredible and I hope to someday see it in person in my lifetime. Amazing to see a ship raised as it was in such perfect condition. Very glad you posting more pics of this important vessel.
Mark

Gavin Nugent

11th March 2009, 08:52 AM

Another image for reference. These items are from the "Victory"

Gav

Matchlock

11th March 2009, 04:47 PM

Good material - thanks a lot, Gav!

Michael

M ELEY

12th March 2009, 11:31 AM

Just fascinating how many forms and types of barshot there really were. makes me want to lay my hands on an authentic piece. Too bad way out of my price range! Maybe someday... :(

Got my Dudley Pope book today! Awsome volume! I particularly like all of the artillary pieces covered here. Not your typical book on the subject. Thanks, Michael and Fernando, for mentioning it.

Matchlock

7th May 2009, 06:29 PM

Only one piece complete.

Sold Bonhams 2007.

Michael

Matchlock

29th May 2009, 04:34 PM

An illustration of ca. 1560 picturing chain shot and a shell .

Michael

Matchlock

12th June 2009, 04:04 PM

This specimen was sold for 555 euro on Ebay in April 2009. It does not actually look very old to me, telling from the patina, maybe 19th century.

m

M ELEY

13th June 2009, 02:16 AM

Yet another awesome piece, Michael. Thanks for posting it. I had a question...
In your experience, have you ever seen a piece of barshot of the type with disc ends that had a round bar vs the square bar commonly seen? Kind of like a barbell? From my research, it seems that the French favored the kinds with the disc-like ends (think 'hockey-puck') vs the full round (American/Brit) and half round shot ends (Brit). Your thoughts? Also, any indication that factories that made dumbells in the mid-late 19th centuries also produced these? There's a Civil War site that has a small listing of round barshot for sale that are pretty much identical to barbells. They show some age and have black primer like naval items, but then again, most of the weights of this period appear as such, so...?

Matchlock

14th June 2009, 03:32 PM

Hi Mark,

The only bar shot with disc ends I have ever seen was published by Dudley Pope. I posted it earlier above, p. 1.

I am sorry to say that I do not know anything about manufacturing or national preferences of shapes. I just like them the way they are. :)

Michael

M ELEY

15th June 2009, 03:57 AM

Thanks for replying, Michael. Yes, this is a bit of an obscure subject. I do appreciate all the pics you've posted of bar- and chainshot. You just don't see much of it now-adays to find much research on it.

Matchlock

4th November 2011, 07:59 AM

Hi there,

I found this yesterday.

Best,
Michael

kronckew

4th November 2011, 01:02 PM

...
I am always astounded by the severe damage done by low velocity shot and material, as my limited exposure to understanding ballistics always assumes that the high velocity was essential to carry out the end result. To see an object moving at a speed it could actually be seen moving through the air is surprising that it could sever bodies and so on. Obviously, that was the case, except perhaps when the projectile was well spent.
...

i've read many accounts of battles where the writer described seeing the 'low' velocity roundshot cannon balls destroying a whole file of troops, removing limbs, cutting them in half, etc., and even descriptions of new recruits thinking they could catch one as it seemed to be going slow (and losing an arm or a hand) and people losing legs when they tried to stop a slow ball with their foot. i seem to recall a crimean description of similar instances where troops were warned not to try this foolishness, and photos of hundreds of cannon balls that had rolled back down the hill. at waterloo wellington lost a few generals, one lost a leg next to wellington to a cannonball, and said 'excuse me sir, i seem to have lost my leg'. another had his horse cut in half by one.

roundshot was deliberately aimed to strike before advancing troops so it would skip and take out the whole file. troops prayed for soft ground that would absorb the shot without skipping.

along with grape, cannister, and langridge, as well as the thousands of musket balls flying about, i'm surprised at how few actually were wounded or killed, even tho it was in the thousands at such battles, many more made it, and in most cases disease actually killed more than firearms.

Jim McDougall

4th November 2011, 04:30 PM

i've read many accounts of battles where the writer described seeing the 'low' velocity roundshot cannon balls destroying a whole file of troops, removing limbs, cutting them in half, etc., and even descriptions of new recruits thinking they could catch one as it seemed to be going slow (and losing an arm or a hand) and people losing legs when they tried to stop a slow ball with their foot. i seem to recall a crimean description of similar instances where troops were warned not to try this foolishness, and photos of hundreds of cannon balls that had rolled back down the hill. at waterloo wellington lost a few generals, one lost a leg next to wellington to a cannonball, and said 'excuse me sir, i seem to have lost my leg'. another had his horse cut in half by one.

roundshot was deliberately aimed to strike before advancing troops so it would skip and take out the whole file. troops prayed for soft ground that would absorb the shot without skipping.

along with grape, cannister, and langridge, as well as the thousands of musket balls flying about, i'm surprised at how few actually were wounded or killed, even tho it was in the thousands at such battles, many more made it, and in most cases disease actually killed more than firearms.

Michael thank you for that stunning photo and shown with the open book to set wonderful context, its great to see this thread revived and on such a fascinating topic.

Kronckew, thank you for this dynamic perspective and it is great to get a more realistic picture, though gruesome, of how warfare was in those times. I think one of the best books I ever read on the subject was "The Face of Battle" by the late John Keegan of Sandhurst. He truly showed the nature of human reaction in terrible combat situations, and it is so interesting to better understand how people thought and responded in these circumstances.

I think I mentioned before in this thread or elsewhere, my great grandfather who was a Civil War veteran in reading one of his accounts in a newspaper article recounting his memoirs, when asked if he was ever wounded responded, "..nah, got hit by a cannonball at St.Petersburg but didn't hurt me none!". Naturally thoughts were was this simply embellished hyperbole of an extremely old soldier? or might this have been an extraordinarily 'spent' ball bouncing along as described. I always thought it was a curious tale :)
Much better perspective on it now .

All very best,
Jim

fernando

4th November 2011, 08:50 PM

Hi Michl,

Hi there,
I found this yesterday.
Best,
Michael

Strange device; is it actually a chain shot set ?
Not certainly a prison chain ...
But it looks a bit odd for chain shot ... or am i short sighted ? :o :eek:

Matchlock

5th November 2011, 02:19 AM

Thanks a lot for you inputs, Jim, Kronckew and 'Nando, ;)

I was sent this image about two years ago by an East German antiquarian book deealer (sedulitas) and they assured me that both the ball and chain illustrated were a half ball from a chain shot, and they were not willing to sell it. They regarded it as kind of permanent historical decorative basis for advertisimg their old mss. So that's all I can telly you, folks, sorry though I am. :eek:

Best,
Michael

broadaxe

6th November 2011, 08:23 AM

Hi there,

I found this yesterday.

Best,
Michael

What about the leg cuff and padlock on the right of the ball?...

Matchlock

6th November 2011, 04:19 PM

Brilliantly observed! :)
I overlooked these important items ... :o That of course makes it a ball and chain.

Best,
Michael

M ELEY

7th November 2011, 11:31 AM

broadaxe

7th November 2011, 12:45 PM

So many times for the early types of barshot, one sees the four-sided bar attached to two cylindrical balls. I have heard others say that the classic barbell type with round bar and balls existed, perhaps late 18th/early 19th century? I have what I believe to be one of these types and will post pics. The only other thing one might say is that it is so-called "early strongman circus barbell type", but mine seems to fit the pattern of barshot better. :shrug:
Does anyone have any arsenal pics or museum artifacts showing this type? I've been researching this area for awhile, but not alot of indepth info out there...

I never thought of it this way, but since you put it, I think of a problem: if you load a cannon of sort with a proper diameter "barbell", you get a projectile more than twice the weight of the regular cannon ball: 1ball+bar+1ball; so you need much more powder with the danger of exploding your cannon. The bar shots I'm aware of are consisted of two half-balls connected via simple or extending (sliding) bar, so the weight is just marginally higher.

M ELEY

7th November 2011, 01:43 PM

Point well taken, but I have seen fully round barshot, not the half shot popular with British and American ships. It's just that the full shot always seem to have the square bars, yet many contemporary sources will show penciled sketches of barshot looking exactly like barbells (i.e. with a rounded bar). Michael shows one example above in close-up of what appears to be what I'm speaking of, but it is broken and consists of just the ball and a partial stub of a round bar. Can anyone find other examples??

fernando

7th November 2011, 09:50 PM

... Can anyone find other examples?? ...

http://marinhadeguerraportuguesa.blogspot.com/2011/03/o-arsenal-da-marinha-de-lisboa.html

.

M ELEY

8th November 2011, 04:44 AM

Thanks, Fernando. I had some old sites showing potential barshot for which I'm speaking, but upon trying to upload sites and pics from them, none still work- :mad: :(

M ELEY

8th November 2011, 05:09 AM

Trying again-
www.submerged.co.uk/cannonballs%205%20big.jpg
www.travelmuse.com/articles/off-beat/diving-florida-for-sunken-treasure

M ELEY

8th November 2011, 05:11 AM

Attachments...maybe?! The second reported to be War of 1812 with provenance from battle site.

fernando

8th November 2011, 12:46 PM

The Ebay example looks a but phoney to me :confused:
Looking more like a lifting weight, or other sort of thing :o

fernando

8th November 2011, 12:54 PM

How do you like this drawing, Mark ?
The barshot style, "Palanqueta" for the Portuguese, goes in your favor ;).
It comes in a site dedicated to the Portuguese (independence) Restoration War, 1640-1668.

.

Matchlock

8th November 2011, 10:04 PM

Hi Mark and 'Nando,

I liked your contributions - thanks a lot, guys! ;)

Best,
Michael/Michl

M ELEY

9th November 2011, 10:24 AM

Of course, you are probably right, 'Nando. I was hoping that eBay piece might be legit, because as of now, it is the type of which I speak. My piece is similar, so could be a very old dumbell, but the jury is still out. Most dumbells were marked in some way, either on the individual balls or on the bar. These marks could include patent numbers, maker marks or weight size. Likewise, the old cast iron types, referred to among collectors of such as "circus strongman barbells" typically had..huh hum...huge balls with a very short bar between them just big enough for one hand. Likewise, frequently the bar itself would flair in the middle to allow a better grip.

Barshot had continued use all the way up until the American Civil War and it seems that by this point, the barshot (of the early/mid 19th) might have taken on more of the classic dumbell shape with rounded bar. That being said, this is my "thesis" only and still waiting for some concrete proof in the way of said examples. Anybody??? :D

M ELEY

9th November 2011, 01:11 PM

Now these two definitely don't seem right to me. The museum piece, supposedly Rev War, is a hand weight. Note how the bar swells in the middle for a grip. The other piece is also obviously a dumbell with no particular amount of age to it. The bar is also too thin...
www.revolutionarywarmuseum.com/images/galleries/sea/cannon/main.html

www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/extremely-bar-shot-cannonball-74489003

fernando

9th November 2011, 01:13 PM

...huge balls with a very short bar between them just big enough for one hand ...
According to (translating) Memories for an Artillery Officer in Campaign, the palanqueta (barshot) bar should have 10 1/2 inches. This is a very interesting work on artillery, put up in 1778, and was digitized by the New York Public Library, now available through Google, but its (portuguese) text was not translated.
BOOK (http://books.google.com/books?id=QD1FAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=balas+enramadas&source=bl&ots=_URBPOChsj&sig=u0hLh4fxpFtAhv4RSLyXaHlRP1Q&hl=pt-PT&ei=rVm4TtLrJ8zCswaJtuTdDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=balas%20enramadas&f=false)
it contains the description of the inumerous types of shot (PAGE 96). Unfortunately it doesn't detail the shot bar cross section, but the term (perno = unthreaded bolt) takes us to consider that the bar is cylindrical.
Browsing the term palanqueta (barshot) one finds that this type of device was vastly used by the Portuguese. I have read about a few coast fortifications stocking these things by the hundred ... but no pictures yet :shrug:

M ELEY

9th November 2011, 01:18 PM

Once again, I'm amazed at your resources, Fernando. That description does seem to leave alittle room for a rounded bar. Now that I know the term 'palanqueta', I will try to do some research.

Here's a real one (sorry, Moderators, couldn't download pics from this closed auction). Square barred, but at least it has the full round balls-
www.ebay.com/itm/Bar-Shot-Cannon-Ball-EXTREMELY-RARE-PRE-CIVIL-WAR-/300601305058

M ELEY

9th November 2011, 01:49 PM

Pulling all the stops here, gentlemen. From much research over the years, I did turn up this interesting site. Note the cannonball with the raised area where once a round bar might have been before it was cut down? (It's the 15th item down). That's what the site says and mentions Keeler Tavern with the same type of cannonball embedded in it (funny, the pic doen't seem to support it, but anyway, take a look...
www.minutemantreasures.com/5139/11401.html
http://keelertavernmuseum.org/keeler-subpages/home/battle.php

fernando

9th November 2011, 03:53 PM

Did you know tat barshot was also called "angels" ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cannon_bullets.png
http://www.americanrevolution.org/artillery.html

Here's a picture of various "multi use" shot, this time from George C. Neumann's Illustrated Encyclopedia (Page 12). Some of them have round connections.

.

M ELEY

10th November 2011, 12:56 AM

AWESOME!!! Finally, a nod if not absolute proof that these things came in all shapes and sizes. I have several of Neumann'sa books, but none with this illustration. Thank you, my friend!! I'm really attached to these types of specialized naval shot. Yes, I had heard them called 'angels', while the round bar with the flaired ends have another name that slips my mind at the present. Here's one recovered from a military site-
http://images.ourontario.ca/niagarahs/71341/image/176968

One of this type was on the Pass Cavallo shipwreck in TX and thus, some believe this type of shot was popular with Spahish ships. This opinion was seconded on another site concerning another wreck.

M ELEY

10th November 2011, 01:34 AM

Speaking of shipwrecks, one of the most informative sources I've yet found are on actual archaeology sites with surviving examples. These papers are like free down-loadable books with exacting information on the length, construction and origin of patterns. For future historians who are interested in this thread, I wanted to attach 3 such sites with info. The first, based on the dive of the French ship Machault (Fernando, you recently posted a pic on another thread about boarding axes with this ship in context). This article by Douglas Brice is long, but absolutely worth it concerning the differing construction (solid cast, cast balls with full bar, etc)-highly recommended.

www.sha.org/research_resources/documents/Weaponry%20of%20the%20Machault.pdf

www.history.navy.mil/branches/UA_Penobscot.pdf

http://repository.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/586/etd-tamu-2004A-ANTH-Borgens-1.pdf)?sequence=1

Matchlock

10th November 2011, 01:45 AM

Excellent inputs, guys!

Please hang on! :)

Best,
Michael

fernando

10th November 2011, 04:48 PM

...For future historians who are interested in this thread, I wanted to attach 3 such sites with info...
Even not aspiring to be an historian, this material is always precious for one's general culture.
But i also enjoy it in that, being you defending the thesis that barshot shaft cross section is not only square but also round, you are now to deal with it also ... hexagonal ;) :cool: :eek: .

... If you don't mind my (Latin) humour :o .

.

M ELEY

11th November 2011, 06:50 AM

Touche, my friend. What's next, a triangular bar? My personal favorite is the deadly 'tiki bar'- :p :D :rolleyes:

M ELEY

13th November 2011, 02:07 AM

Sorry, have been away. Actually, Fernando, upon thinking seriously ( :cool: )about your comment, you do make an important observation that these things had all different styles and shapes (Neuman has one above that looks like it has door knobs for weights!). I've seen the square bars on the full/half shot types, round bars on expanding bar shot and now octogonal on the type previously mentioned. With such variety, it might be hard to pin-point all the types. I'm going to post pics of mine soon...

M ELEY

13th November 2011, 01:12 PM

Site deleted/no longer valid. Too bad as it had some interesting barshot, including an alleged "exploding" barshot. Oh well... :( :shrug:

M ELEY

16th November 2011, 02:33 AM

Here goes...
The piece measures 13" long total, ball diameter 11", bar length alone is 6", and bar is 4 1/2" wide. In my defense, this piece is unmarked, made of forged iron with balls braised to the bar. forging flaws are evident. Patina is chocolate brown. A 2 lb and 4lb cannon ball in pic for comparison. The only thing that didn't come out well in the pics is the roundness of the balls. The pics make them look more ovoid, but in real life they are as round as any of the other artillery shot I have. My argument is that this is what barshot looked like toward the mid/late 19th c. Easier to make than the hand-wrought square barred type of the previous century- :shrug:
Dumbells were typically marked, cast as one piece, just as often made of steel than iron, and didn't have bars this thick or long.

Matchlock

16th November 2011, 03:26 AM

Hi Mark,

Very interesting additions, thank you!

Yeah, mid-19th c. would also be my guess.

Best,
Michael

M ELEY

16th November 2011, 04:02 AM

Thanks, Michael. And thank you for starting this discussion and much of the materials herein. Hopefully, I can acquire an older piece at a later time, but in the meantime, I love coming back to this thread. Perhaps this one might be added to the 'Sticky' section? :D :shrug:

fernando

16th November 2011, 01:43 PM

Hi Mark,
I would adventure to suggest, within the whole of my ignorance, that your item might not be a barshot; i don't know, the proportions of the bar (thickness+length) in relation to whole setup ... the way it is connected to the balls. But don't pay much notice to my impressions :o .
I like that solid shot wooden base, by the way ;) .

M ELEY

16th November 2011, 08:12 PM

Ahh yes, the solid shot on the wooden base...it came from a land far, far away- ;)

I see your point on the construction and in the end simply need to continue doing research on this puppy. It is not absolutely proven to be a barshot, nor is it absolutely proven not to be a dumbell (I must say, though, that it probably is one or the other versus a third option of counterweight, machine part, etc).

The best proof I had that it was mid-19th was the last site I listed which, unfortunately, is no longer accessible. That gent sold a number of cannons from all age and nationalities and had barshot EXACTLY like mine listed as 19th c. His site wasn't above some controversy, though, being a seller after all (some of his lanaka appeared more modern and poorly cast to be original), sooooo....hopefully, I'll run across a Civil War artillery expert someday who will finally end the speculation.

fernando

16th November 2011, 10:34 PM

....hopefully, I'll run across a Civil War artillery expert someday who will finally end the speculation...
I have registered in a Spanish Naval History forum in purpose to ask details on palanquetas, namely their cross section profile; but no answer so far :shrug: .
http://todoababor.mforos.com/1556314/10622720-palanquetas/

kronckew

17th November 2011, 04:07 AM

i posted a copy of the US artillery manual for the civil war period on the forum before. it mentions bar and chain shot only in passing, for naval use. it goes into great detail on all other civil war era projectiles, their wooden sabot, the tin bands used to hold same to the shot, pre-made cartridges, etc. etc. worth doing a search for & reading it.

Linky to Gibbon Artillery Manual of 1863 (http://www.2ndfloridalightartillery.com/Documents/GibbonArtilleryManual.pdf)

the full 1862 army ordinance manual, scanned, is available thru google books as a .pdf if interested... it's too big to attach here. (19MB) it has sections not only on artillery, but small arms and horse saddles, and tackle, swords and bayonets, etc. and also tables on ballistics and on 'foreign' ordinance.

Linky to google books ord. manual (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wwY6DT2Sc_cC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false) (click the .pdf item upper left to download)

Matchlock

17th November 2011, 05:42 AM

Hi Kronckew,

Those latter contributions seem to kind of lead to a considerably later period of time than I intended to cover when posting the thread and staking its claim. I have to admit though that I don't mind the current evolution at all, and I sure wish you to go on both researching and updating, guys! :)

And don't worry: I promise you I'll hang on bringing in the earliest points of view on my favored subject! After all, all topics need evolution and fresh minds, just in order to stand up to scientific evaluation! :rolleyes: :cool: I'm glad our community is taking the topic to further boundaries! ;)

Best,
Michael

Matchlock

17th November 2011, 06:17 AM

Hi there,

I found this barshot specimen attributed to the American Revolutionary War in a Cowans', Ohio, catalog of 28-29 April 2010.

Best,
Michael

fernando

17th November 2011, 01:51 PM

fernando

17th November 2011, 02:36 PM

Hi Wayne

... Linky to google books ord. manual[/URL] (click the .pdf item upper left to download)

I find no .pdf item in the upper left when i open the link; only one .pdf button in the upper right but it doesn't enable the download. Could it be because we have a different operative system ?

M ELEY

18th November 2011, 04:15 AM

I have a huge appreciation for these naval types of shot and it was never my intention to steer attention away from the primary focus. I assure all that if I had my way, I'd own all the specimens already presented ( :D ), nor do I have a particular interest in post- Age of Fighting Sail armament. It's just that it's so frustrating and amazing that there is an absence of clarity of this area pertaining to the 19th c. I was hoping to find out for sure and thus, I posted here. I feel anyone who researches specialty shot may find this thread informative from beginning to end (i.e. early shot to it's extinction in the latter half of the 19th century).

Kronkew- thank you very much for those links. You bring my exact point to light with this, though. Here are manuals detailing every aspect of artillery from gunpowder grain, combustion forces, exact propulsion with estimation of droppage with firing, specific ordenance, the wood used to make cannon carriages, etc, etc. Yet, when it comes to our little friend, the bar and chain shot, there is a generic 4 or 5 word description. Understandably, these were on their way out, but still, no valid description for something still carried on ships and such? I just read an article on a land-based installation on the Atlantic coast that fired barshot at attacking ships circa 1860's, yet no pics, no descriptions? It's like this with every book and online source I've come across thus far. It's not just the Amer CW either. Other countries still carried forms of bar/chain shot. Were these just recycled from previous centuries, or is my guess right that with modern forging came easier models of barshot (two cannon balls braised to a round bar). That'ss my tirade for the night, just wish someone would definitively prove me right or wrong. :cool:

M ELEY

22nd November 2011, 01:21 PM

Hmmm...another clue to look into if it's correct.

http://cwbullet.org/bullet-relic-forum/archive/index.php/t-6189.html

fernando

7th December 2011, 03:06 PM

I have registered in a Spanish Naval History forum in purpose to ask details on palanquetas, namely their cross section profile; but no answer so far :shrug: .
http://todoababor.mforos.com/1556314/10622720-palanquetas/

I have got an answer from a word keeping Spaniard. Not much of a help for your case, though; but a great article on XVII ships artillery;
http://www.aammb.cat/9034%20galeon%2016%20codos/g16c%20-%2013%20%20La%20artilleria.pdf

.

kronckew

7th December 2011, 11:24 PM

found the referenced youtube video today when looking at another video on sword and buckler posted here. around 02:47 into it, they show an example of the 'slow' cannonball effects i mentioned earlier in this thread. kinda gory. whole video is educational. lotsa nice arms, sharp pointy things and things that go boom.

HD Battle of Camden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUFTcrbRyEM) from 'the Patriot' (best at 720p HD & full screen)

edited: today must be cannon day. found this article:

Cannon ball fired thru home (http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/cannonball-fired-mythbusters-stunt-goes-through-du/nFwRj/)

kinda off topic, but does show the odd bounces they can take.

Matchlock

7th December 2011, 11:46 PM

Very nice video, and rather authentic regarding the guns as well - thanks!

m

broadaxe

8th December 2011, 07:27 AM

This is a video of a real field experiment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfsuIaTU92Y&list=FL53fKwJBEFddV-1C--HnD5g&index=24&feature=plpp_video
Took me a LOT of time to find it after searching for another footage from a different film I once saw on History channel, similar conditions but targets were ballistic gelatine rather plywood.

broadaxe

12th December 2011, 09:53 AM

Two months ago I visited the Czech Republic and was very happy to discover a new vast exhibition of arms & armor in the renovated Schwarzenberg Palace. Two chain shots exhibited, one is a rather interesting hybrid.

Matchlock

13th December 2011, 04:46 PM

Thank you so much for these images - and for the information that the arms museum in the Schwarzenberg Palais has been reopened. I photographed there for hours in 1995.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock

13th December 2011, 04:49 PM

Grrrr, double post ...

fernando

14th December 2011, 10:14 PM

I remembered having seen some of this stuff in the Oporto Military Museum.
... And still they were there today :cool:

-

Matchlock

15th December 2011, 06:10 PM

I remembered having seen some of this stuff in the Oporto Military Museum.
... And still they were there today :cool:
-

And that's what they were supposed to be, I guess! :eek:
m

Matchlock

27th February 2012, 04:34 PM

For more on grape shot and canister shot, please see my thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=134755&posted=1#post134755

Best,
Michael

Matchlock

6th March 2012, 05:01 PM

Labeled as 18th/19th c., from the George F. Harding collection.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock

9th March 2012, 04:57 PM

Another.

m

fernando

9th March 2012, 05:05 PM

Fascinating little specimen ... and in Technicolor :cool:

Matchlock

9th March 2012, 05:20 PM

... and Cinemascope! :cool: :eek:

M ELEY

11th March 2012, 05:28 AM

Awesome new info and pics, Michael. Please keep 'em coming!
Mark

Matchlock

21st March 2012, 04:58 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=136253#post136253

VANDOO

19th April 2012, 04:18 AM

I RAN ACROSS A FEW PICTURES FROM THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR WITH CANNON AND SHOT THOUGHT THIS WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO POST CANNONBALLS.
1. NEATLY STACKED UNION ORDINANCE LIKELY ARSENAL YARD WASHINGTON DC.
2.UNION GUN EMPLACEMENT WITH CANNISTER SHOT.
3.RICHMOND VA. AFTER UNION FORCES WENT THRU REMAINS OF ARSENAL.
MANY MAJOR CITIES IN THE SOUTH LOOKED LIKE THIS AFTER THE WAR MAJOR CITES IN THE NORTH WERE NOT DESTROYED.

Matchlock

25th April 2012, 03:02 PM

For more on quilted shot, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=138225#post138225

Matchlock

27th April 2012, 08:48 PM

Canister grape shot of 1812:

http://images.ourontario.ca/niagarafallsmuseums/71962/data

m

fernando

16th September 2013, 06:14 PM

Chain shot (and not only) pictured last week in the Navy Museum, situated in Torre Del Oro, Seville, Spain.
I looks like the black finishing is original.

.

broadaxe

16th September 2013, 09:54 PM

What do you think about this item here: http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=5683

Personally, I think it is much too elaborated to be ammunition, and not too heavy to be thrown by hand.

fernando

16th September 2013, 10:37 PM

Yes, too elaborated to be cannon stuff and about right to be thrown by hand ... by strong guys.
... and too risky to be posted; as still on active sale ;) .

broadaxe

16th September 2013, 10:45 PM

Yes, too elaborated to be cannon stuff and about right to be thrown by hand ... by strong guys.
... and too risky to be posted; as still on active sale ;) .

I see no problem - not an auction, the seller is active here and a personal friend. If you check the description you'll see he noted the two speculations (we even discussed it today :D ).

fernando

17th September 2013, 10:26 AM

I see no problem - not an auction, the seller is active here and a personal friend. If you check the description you'll see he noted the two speculations (we even discussed it today :D ).

Forgive me, Broadaxe :o
No hard feelings and nothing personal; only the force of habit. I see both sale and auctions with the same binoculars :shrug: .

... 1. Discussion of items currently in the process of being offered for sale, especially active auctions, is strictly prohibited...

broadaxe

17th September 2013, 10:32 AM

No problem, you can delete.

fernando

17th September 2013, 01:47 PM

No problem, you can delete.
Oh no, i am not currently a 'deleter'; that was only a hint.

M ELEY

17th September 2013, 11:49 PM

Well, as long as the pics are still up! :D :cool:

The item in question is very interesting and could be a form of expanding barshot. Its main purpose would have been to slash through lines/ropes in the tops, or as anti-personnel. It is similar to 'star-shot', in that it would have folded up for insertion in the cannon and expanded in flight. It is very elaborate, but then again, many of the Indian suncontinent weapons were. If it is not an artillery shot, I can't say what its purpose would have been?

Fernando, thats for posting that chainshot picture from Saville. I haven't seen too many of the real ones with the chain link directly brazed to the ball itself and the close-up photo was great.