Real or copy? (Montante, Bastard, Claymore)

[celtan]

What do you think, real McCoy or victorian copy?

Manuel Luis

:confused:

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Blade%20Bucket/CIMG0222montante.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Blade%20Bucket/espadas002.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Blade%20Bucket/espadas003.jpg

[katana]

Hi Manuel,
my first reaction is that it is a Victorian copy....the blade looks very similar to the trade blades that reached North Africa and ended up hilted as Takouba. Understandably it is difficult to be sure from a photograph....so I could be totally wrong.

Do you have access to the sword ?

Regards David

[celtan]

Yep! I'm considering buying it. But I need an idea of what's worth, if anything.

Merry Xmas!

M

Hi Manuel,
my first reaction is that it is a Victorian copy....the blade looks very similar to the trade blades that reached North Africa and ended up hilted as Takouba. Understandably it is difficult to be sure from a photograph....so I could be totally wrong.

Do you have access to the sword ?

Regards David

[kisak]

I'd guess Victorian. The tip looks a bit too "flat" to me, and the bits on the ends of the crossguard looks rather disproportional.

[broadaxe]

I would like to support the points brought up by katana & kisak. The crossguard is somehow out of proportions: the cross bars are thin comparing the terminals which look too large at their own. The crossguard is very wide comparing the grip.
An almost identical sword (probably the original, dated to the early 16th century) can be seen in Edged Weapons by Wilkinson, p. 31.

[Paul Macdonald]

Hi Folks,

Just to present my own wee observations...the pommel form is very unusual, not what you would expect to see on an original C16th sword (but not so difficult to manufacture with an C18th or C19th metal lathe ;))

The grip has a top ring which meets the pommel base, and the grip top diameter is less than the pommel base diameter, where pommels stretching towards the grip invariably meet the grip flush for smoother handling.

The quillions appear to be too thin to be practical for this sword type.

The blade type is unusual for a two handed sword of C16th style. It would not be usual for central fullering to run for the full length of the blade, as a two handed sword blade of this type (long and with a very shallow width taper) should have a good distal taper, which should preclude the need for central fullering after about half the blade length.

This would suggest that this piece would not handle too lightly in the hands and cast a questionable shadow over its practicality.

The blade form (shallow width taper, central triple fullering) and makers mark is identical to a single handed blade that I bought some years ago and hilted as a German Katzbalger. This was a C19th blade made to an earlier style.

I would suggest that this sword is an example of the same.

As a C19th repro of this quality (not bad but not top), I would not suggest that it is too valuable. £150 - £200 tops maybe?

Hope that helps and all the best,

Macdonald

[Ed]

The blade looks decidedly African, I even have a mate to it. Altogether it appears too delicate to be authentic.

[celtan]

Thanks for all your learned advice, guy. Much appreciated.

Merry Xmas to all!

Manuel Luis

[Atlantia]

Hey Manuel,
Can you grab the sword pictured with it? That looks more to my taste! ;-)

I can't add anything on the one in question. I Can't see the handle/hilt/guard being anything other than a repro of one age or another, and the blade at best is an old trade blade, nice but better in a Kaskara where at least it would look at home.

Its a nice enbough piece, but it would have to be priced as a repro, not an original of course.
I could see myself buying it, but at around £100 or so.

All the best
Gene

[stekemest]

Besides what has already been mentioned, I have some problems with the blade mark (the crescent). It does not look right for the time if you ask me. I'd also say it's a Victorian copy. Those are sometimes worth a few hundred dollars too, though.
Peter

[celtan]

Hi Guys, the adjacent blade is a Judge, Rule, or executioner's sword, and it's being discussed in another thread. The overall impression is that the blade may be legit, but the pommel and cross guard are replacements...

Best

Manuel Luis

[Ed]

These are the images of a Taurag-bladded English Officers Hilt sword that was discussed here some ages ago. I think that I was beguiled (at the time) with Burton's report of survivals of Crusader blades (suitably rehilted) among various middle eastern tribes. The consensus, I recall, was that there was a thriving trade between Europe and the mid east.

Anyhoo, here is the best reference that I have at hand:

Briggs, Lloyd Cabot European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers, Journal of the Arms and Armour Society, London 1965, V, 2 37-92.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Incitatus/Brit%20sword/IMG_4996.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Incitatus/Brit%20sword/IMG_4989.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Incitatus/Brit%20sword/IMG_4990.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Incitatus/Brit%20sword/mark.jpg

[Ed]

Thinking about it, this is a very versitile blade. You want medieval? You got it! You want Brit Civil War, You got it!! You want ...

Just add hilt and mix well. :)

[celtan]

Ed, you're being mischievous. Santa isn't bringing you that aged Chivas Regal you asked him for, nor the 09' Jag...

I spent a few minutes searching the net for Lithuanian blades to no effect (yes, there's a place called Taurag in Lithuania). So I thought, what do you know? It's european after all !

Then I went back to your post, and I found the Tuareg ref...

What can I say,. Got me!

: )

Let's raise the stakes. I'm throwing you guys this tasty morsel.


http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Blade%20Bucket/CIMG0221.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Blade%20Bucket/espadas005.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Blade%20Bucket/espadas007.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Blade%20Bucket/espadas006.jpg



Best

:D

Manuel

[Ed]

Victorian re-hilted German 16th c. blade?

[katana]

....possibly a 1580 Rapier....British :rolleyes: :p :D


.

[Ed]

Cheater :p

[celtan]

The Taurag Trap has been avenged!

:D



No, seriously, you guys think it truly can be late 16th C.? It's gorgeous, I salivate everytime I hold it....

[katana]

Cheater :p

:rolleyes: :D ;)

[celtan]

ditto

[kisak]

To continue with my rampant guesswork and speculation, I guess the blade could be the real deal, but that hilt looks fishy. Maybe not the oddest I've seen, but nothing I'd dare stamp as authentic on my own.

And while manufacturing dates aren't contagious, the fact that it seems to be in the same batch as the Executioner's Sword and the Bastard isn't exactly a good sign.

[Ed]

Frankly, and I mean this in a constructive way, the hilt looks like it belonged to a bouncer in a bordello. An old bordello perhaps, but a bordello nonetheless.

Really.

:D

[katana]

Cheater :p


Or as Mr Sherlock Holmes has said..."“There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact..." :D :p ;) Who's to say the label on the sword is correct though.... :shrug:

Kind Regards David

[ward]

Not my area but waht is the weight on this rapier like?

[Marc]

The blade *could* be genuine 16th - 17th c., but better pictures (short of direct inspection) would be needed. For the hilt, my bets go to "modern" (19th-early 20th c.) on stylistic, decorative and construction grounds (I agree with Ed in that there's a certain degree of... "pimp-ness"... in it :D )

[celtan]

Well, I guess I may have been an English Pimp in a past life, cuz I like the darn thingie...

I'll try to take more pics and weight the items next time I visit.

BTW:

Does anyone know of a mid 19th C. European armourer/s by the initials ISB?

Best

M

[Ed]

The blade looks ok to me but, my dear, that hilt. :D

You know, if it were cheap enough, I'd think about buying it, loosing the hilt and displaying the blade.

[celtan]

INSCRIPTIONS:

A. "SI VIS PACEM/PARA BELLUM"
If you wish peace, prepare for war
B. "VERBUM DOMINI / MANET IN AETERNUM"
God's word is eternal (Lutheran Motto)



http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Blade%20Bucket/081216008.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Blade%20Bucket/081216011var1.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Blade%20Bucket/081216012.jpg


http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Blade%20Bucket/espadas006.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Blade%20Bucket/081216015.jpg


http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/Blade%20Bucket/081216014.jpg