Orientation of the grip of this keris

[Freddy]

I recently bought what I think is a Bugis keris. Unfortunately without sheath, but it's still a nice piece.

The position of the handle looked a bit 'akward' to me. I had quite some trouble getting it off the blade. The peksi was bent.

I was able to straighten it without causing damage, but now I'm wondering what would be the best position of the handle for this type of keris.

I'm sure some of our keris-loving forum members could 'enlighten' me. ;)

Here are some pics : first the piece as I got it, secondly a pic of the 'bent' peksi.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/191665318_o.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/Afbeelding002-4.jpg

[kulbuntet]

Hi Fredy,

I do also think it's a bugis from sulawesi, but im no expert. But stil i can see the garuda on the sorsoran(V shape). I have one like it, but without luk.

Her a pic, how it's mounted.


http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/628/img0677ih6.jpg

You have to twist the hilt till it is in comfort in your hand. I hope it is clear for you, iff not tel us and one of us wil try to help. One knows a bit..all know a lot.

Regards and congrats...nice blade and willah. Maybe someone can help you with a sheath(sarong)...try out and you wil know. :)

[David]

That's a nice looking Bugis keris. Kulbuntet's photo should set you straight, but he is also right that the exact postion will depend on what is most comfortable in your hand. It should be based on that grip in the photo though.
On of our Peninsula area friends might be able to put you on to a new sheath, but i suspect that it will cost you quite a bit more than the price you paid for the keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

I believe that the original position of the grip on this keris was correct.

I have seen a number of examples of this type of keris with the grip apparently reversed. I own two myself, both of which were very old acquisitions into Australia, and the hilts were fitted with damar, that is, they were glued into place with a natural resin.

I have also seen at least one old photograph showing a keris like this being worn.

The tang on these Bugis type keris nearly always seems to be bent to some degree, I doubt that I have ever pulled a keris of the generic Bugis type apart and found it with a straight tang--- and I've taken apart one hell of a lot of these keris.

I do not know exactly where, when or why these keris have reversed grips, but it is absolutely certain that they do exist and the reversed grip is correct.

[kulbuntet]

To Allan,

I know that the sulawesi buginese do take off their hilt sometimes, when they are a guest in some ones house, or court. So that they can't use their keris....

Could it be like that? I think that it is difficult to hold/use the keris like that.

Allan is right about the fact that sometimes bugi kerisses show the reversed grip. I always thought it was just fitted wrong.

[A. G. Maisey]

Any Bugis keris that came out of S.E. Asia a long time ago, and that I have handled, have always had the hilt fixed very firmly, more often than not with damar.

Possibly these reversed grip keris were used in a different manner, or worn like that for a particular reason. It occurs to me that it would be a very practical way to mount a keris hilt for somebody working around ropes, such as a seaman.

[David]

I certainly would not argue that you and others have occasionally come across a hilt fixed into this "reverse" position, for whatever reason. However, i don't believe that one can automatically assume that the original position of this grip was therefore correct. We have no idea whose hands this keris was in over it's recent (and not so recent) past. Did this keris come out of S.E. Asia a long time ago, or has it been in more Western hands for many years? I certainly don't know, but it seems strange to me that you would form a conclusion based on the exception to the rule.
I do know that the opposite orientation, the one showed by Kulbunet, allows this keris to best be wielded as a weapon. It therefore seems a logical explanation to photos that might show a reverse orientation (again, i believe, the exception to the rule) that the wearer is perhaps show a peaceful intent. I do realize that this does not explain keris that have this reverse orientation fixed with damar, but how many of these have you actually encountered in you 50 some odd years of experience?

[A. G. Maisey]

I have two of these keris, David.

One has the end of the grip broken off , making it considerably shorter in the grip. (pictured)

One of these keris belonged to my mother's father, that is, my grandfather, and he brought it to Australia around 1920.

The other one I bought at an arms fair.

I have taken both these keris apart, and both had the grips fixed in the reverse position with damar, I needed to heat the blades to remove the hilts.

I have also seen an old photograph of a keris being worn in this way.I saw it in a book, but I cannot remember which book.

Yes, I agree, this way of mounting a hilt is an exception to the rule, but if a tang has been purposely bent to allow such mounting, I believe it is very likely that the hilt was fixed in that way in its place of origin.

It probably comes down to just how the hilt was fixed, and how it sat on the blade when moved to a normal position before the tang was straightened.

One other thing:- both of my keris that had hilts mounted in this way have blades that appear to share relevant characteristics with Freddy's blade, they are broad, have very stiff gonjos, and the kembang kacang is very internal. To me, they seem to be variations of the same type of blade. If we were talking tangguh---which I don't think we can with these types of blades---I'd be inclined to think they were candidates to be classified into the same tangguh.

Yes, I accept that in the case of Freddy's keris, we do not know its history, and no mention of the way in which it was secured is made. Maybe I was a little too positive in my previous remarks, however, although I could be wrong, I don't think I am.

[Freddy]

Thanks for all your input, guys. :)

I don't believe the position of the grip on this keris was the original one. When I got it, it was too much bent towards the ganja to be held comfortably in one's hand.

It wasn't easy to get this grip loose from the peksi. But once I was able to take the keris apart, I can assure you that there was nothing with which the handle was secured to the peksi. No 'damar', cloth, paper or similar things.

Only the bent peksi 'secured' the grip. It seemed unnatural to me. Therefore I guess the peksi was bend some time ago. Perhaps it got stuck somewhere. :shrug:

Now, I'm trying out the best position (for me) for this grip. I'll show some pics when I figured this out.

There was no sheath with this keris. Does anyone know where it would be possible to get a proper sheath made ?

[Battara]

Alan, would the one you pictured be considered a chieftain's keris?

[A. G. Maisey]

I do not know.

I had never heard of a "chieftain's keris" before I started to read posts to this forum.

Its an English language name, so I just don't know what it means.

I also do not know what a "chieftain" is in the cultural context of the people who would have originally generated these keris.

I strongly suspect it is a Singapore or Malaysian collector classification, rather than a cultural classification.

Perhaps one of our brothers from that area could enlighten us as to origin and meaning of the term?

[kulbuntet]

at first to Allan again. Chieftain keris is as i see it know as a tribe elder or leader, head waroir. I heve read the same that those men had a keris with a large wranka fited for their status.

To Freddy, the missing of batik/hair or what ever, on the peksi as the bended peksi. Can be explained as it try to write before. Sulawesi bugis do twist off their hilt as a sight of good will. Like the sam custom as carrying a keris in the right hand an putting you left on your right wrist when shaking sombody's hand. Sulawesi bugis did not put their keris in a rack or stand when entering a hous or court.They just twist off the hilt, and the keris can not be used as a weapon but is stil with the owner.

I also found some pics in books showing the reversed hilt(Edward Frey/The Kris..pg67C/E, pg66E and pg68F bugis Sulawesi and Sumatra keris)(and David van Duren/The kris(dutch versoin)..pg89). I had a thought about what Allan said...using ropes..bugis/sulawesi..they were seamen the bugis. I tryed using the keris with reversed hilt, it can be used as a cutting/stabing weapon(cutting roppes?). The diffrence would be that it is more used as a short sword than as a dagger.



:) Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Michel, that's the obvious interpretation of "chieftain".

Don't get me wrong:- I understand the word itself, I just have no idea of why this keris type is called this name, I also have no idea of exactly what a "chieftain" is in the cultural context of these societies.

If a Malay word were to be used to describe this type of keris, we would probably have a pretty good idea of exactly what was meant, and the relevant connotations, but "chieftain"?---sorry, I do not understand.

If it is true that the elites of some cultural group wore keris with a bigger than usual wrongko, can we identify the specific cultural group, persons permitted this style within the cultural group, location, time period, source of information,---etc, etc, etc? In other words:- what do we know and how do we know it?

Whenever we give an opinion on something, that opinion is usually based upon our experience. We might come to a particular conclusion after some years of observing various factors from various sources, and our experience can be of varying types, varying integrity, and varying durations. But when all is said and done, an opinion is just somebody's good guess. It could well be wrong. However, with this "chieftain" name tag, I see it recurring consistently, and I doubt that it is based on experience, but rather upon information from some source. The gap in my knowledge is that I do not know the source, and not knowing the source, I don't really understand what it means.

As for the reversed grip, as I have already stated, the ones I have handled with reversed grips were of the same type,and these grips were not easily removeable, both were firmly stuck in place with damar. Perhaps Freddy's keris grip was not stuck with damar, and perhaps its reversal was the result of some ill advised removal and replacement, but the fact remains that the blade type seems to fall within the same classification as my two that had reversed grips. I do most strongly believe that this grip reversal was a practice that was observed by some group of people at some time. Who, when, where, why, I cannot even guess.

[sipakatuo]

Freddy, we dont called it Keris in Sulawesi. We called it Tappi or Sele but I prefer Tappi. IMHO your Tappi has Bugis Characters such as Pangulu (Handle), Wanua (Sheath) and Kili kili (Ring/Mendak). It is true what Alan said, there are some Tappi which have reversed Pangulu. In term of Watting (Paksi), yes they are always bend but not quite as bend as yours and most of the Watting slightly twisted at the edge. As far as why the watting always glued/sealed very hard? it is a tradition or so called belief that the 'Tuah' of the Tappi stayed inside the Watting therefore you can always show the blade to someone but never show the Watting. The same with Badik, Alameng, and Salaga they are always sealed.

[David]

As far as why the watting always glued/sealed very hard?
I have always assumed that hilts were secured to the blades with damar when they were to be used for fighting to make sure that they do not become separated in the heat of battle. :shrug:

[sipakatuo]

I have always assumed that hilts were secured to the blades with damar when they were to be used for fighting to make sure that they do not become separated in the heat of battle. :shrug:

True indeed, apart from that there is also mystical factor. Thank you for adding.

[BluErf]

Hi all,

I attach pictures of 2 Bugis kerises from my collection - one Straits Bugis, prob from the Peninsula side, and one Sulawesi Bugis. Both have pretty straight/unbent peksi (in Malay terminology). You could use a ruler to verify the centre line of each peksi remains true from ganja to the end the peksi. I should have some more Bugis kerises from various locations with pretty straight peksi.

However, I have also seen many Bugis kerises with bent peksi.

On the point about chieftain kerises, I cannot pinpoint where I first heard the about it. I do hear my Malay collector friends call such kerises "keris penghulu", which I understand to mean village headman or a chief of sorts. I see the term "chieftain" as a convenient tag to identify such types of Bugis kerises in the Peninsular/Sumatran context, defined by big sampir, broad batang, and typically a short but broad 7-waved Bugis blade. These kerises seemed to be a Peninsular/Sumatran construct, and not found in Sulawesi.

In the Peninsular/Sumatran Bugis context, the bigger the size of the sampir, the higher the status of the wearer. There seemed to be no fixed rule as to how big or small it should be for any given social standing of the chief, and I suppose much depends on the economic wellbeing of the keris owner. That said, I don't see any of this "chieftain" kerises as being really really high class. The epitome of Bugis keris in the Peninsular/Sumatran context is probably the golden keris on the cover of Court Arts of Indonesia, from the Riau-Lingga empire, if I remember correctly. That keris has a normal-sized sampir covered in finely chased gold. I suppose the "chieftain" keris could be a phenomenon amongst the "village head" level of people.

On the orientation of the hilt, even if the few specimens here have had their hilts fixed sideways with resin, it may not prove that it is the 'correct' way, I feel. I turn my Bugis keris hilts that way myself all the time - when I am storing them. I'm not saying that this is the reason for these keris hilts to turn up like that in the original context, but surely for practical reasons, the hilt has to be turned to face forward again when necessary? And as pointed out, turning the hilt sideways could have been to signify a non-aggressive stance, or perhaps it made sense for sea-faring Bugis not to have the hilt get in the way. So perhaps there are a few ways of positioning the hilt, and the correctness of either position may not be that important.

[Jussi M.]

Please could you tell me how long are these blades with reverse hilts?

Thanks.

J

[A. G. Maisey]

The length of the blade on the keris I have posted a photo of is 11.5 inches.

The other keris in my possession that had a reverse grip has a blade that is a fraction shorter than this.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Kai Wee for clarifying this "chieftain" terminology. I think that I now might have some small understanding of what is meant by the term.

I thank you also for bringing to my attention a defect in my recent attitude towards posts made to this discussion group.

I have slipped into the habit of making posts in much the same manner that I would adopt if I were to be engaged in casual conversation with a group of friends. During the last 24 hours it has been most forcibly brought to my attention by events which have occurred outside this discussion group, that it is a great mistake to adopt an on-line persona that reflects one's personal approach and character.

I will take a step back, and try to avoid such a relaxed manner in future.

In respect of this current thread, I will attempt to correct some of the statements I have made, and rephrase them in more precise language.

Post of 18th November:-

Quote:- "I believe that the original position of the grip on this keris was correct."

This is very poorly phrased.
If I had wanted to use the word "correct", I should have defined the concept of "correct" in this context. I did not, and the result is a statement that can be read in many ways, resulting in a misunderstanding of the idea I wished to convey.

The idea I wished to convey was that in its place of origin, it was highly probable that the hilt had been reversed by a owner or user of this keris, who was indigenous to that location.

I apologise for any misunderstanding caused by my poor use of my native language.

Quote:- "The tang on these Bugis type keris nearly always seems to be bent to some degree, I doubt that I have ever pulled a keris of the generic Bugis type apart and found it with a straight tang---"

Again, a poorly constructed and imprecise, not to say contradictory statement.I have attempted to encapsulate two opposing ideas into the same construct.

I should have written something like this:- "My experience gained from handling many Bugis type keris over many years indicates that in most cases the tang is bent to greater or lesser degree."

This morning I have checked a sample of 19 of these keris; I have found that in 16 keris the tang has some degree of bend , in three keris the tang could be considered to be straight.

One thing that Kai Wee has highlighted very effectively is the question of the meaning of "correct".

Exactly what does "correct" mean in the context of hilt orientation?

I would propose that in fact, there is no overall "correct" hilt orientation, without a corresponding definition of context.

Thus, in the case of "correct" orientation of a hilt on a keris to be worn in a court environment, that "correctness" would reflect the requirements of this environment.

In the case of "correct" orientation of a keris to be used as weapon, that "correctness" would reflect the personal preferences of the user.

Again I apologise for any misunderstandings caused by my relaxed attitude.

[Jussi M.]

The length of the blade on the keris I have posted a photo of is 11.5 inches.

The other keris in my possession that had a reverse grip has a blade that is a fraction shorter than this.
In the case of "correct" orientation of a keris to be used as weapon, that "correctness" would reflect the personal preferences of the user.

(...) the exact postion will depend on what is most comfortable in your hand (...)

Maybe there is a very simple explanation to all this? Reverse hilt = reverse grip?

http://www.survivalsheath.com/knives/images/icepick2.jpg

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/images/kerism4.jpg

Please do note: both pics are hotlinked to websites which hold rights for these pictures.

Thanks,

J.

[David]

Jussi, have you ever tried holding this type of keris hilt in this manner. Besides, i have serious doubts that the bugis keris in question would ever be used in an overhand stabbing action like the one shown in the relief. :)

[Jussi M.]

Jussi, have you ever tried holding this type of keris hilt in this manner. Besides, I have serious doubts that the bugis keris in question would ever be used in an overhand stabbing action like the one shown in the relief. :)

What I have done or have not done is irrelevant David. What is relevant however is that ancient people - so I believe - did not fight with weapons. - They fought with their fighting art and used the weapons only as an extension of their art. Take for example old Western and South East Asian wood workers; surely some of their tools were similar to each other but they surely also had in some ways different methods of using those tools which makes comparing them the same as comparing apples to oranges.

Same thing here - if one has no understanding of the methodology of how weapons were used on a culture at a given time how can one make claims on whether a weapon is good or not or why a weapon is shaped the way it is? I have a pretty hard time to accept that a tiny little keris is used on the same manner as a big one. It just is´nt very logical. Also it is good to remember that there were big differences on the fighting systems found in the Indonesian archipelago and even on some found on the same areas (so I´ve read). If there are big differences it isnt logical to assume that all those systems used weapons on the same manner either; not to mention the circumstances must also have played a part on shaping the ways weapons were used.

Take ancient Japan for example. The warriors had two swords; one long and one short. Why? - because in constricted space (like on a vessel on our case?) a long blade was not very usable hence it was used only outdoors whereas the shorter one was used inside and on situations where space was constricted.

Lets face it: more or less none here - myself included - have a clue of how the keris was actually used and whether there were different ways of using it (this I believe). We all have a bias that it is used X whereas the truth may very well have been Y, Z or something in between. And it may also have been that one mans Z was at another situation X as just like tools can be used on various ways depending on the situation at hand so can weapons: a rifle is a rifle yes but you can make devastating blows with it choose you to do so.

The relief pictured is from a time when these weapons were actually used, and used a lot. Saying that it isnt a truthful portrayal of how some (the pictured) were worn and used makes little sense from the standpoint of November 2008 as no-one from this forum was witnessing the events that took place when that carving was made.

Instead of us all having strong opinions we maybe should accept that we really dont know and form new hypothesis to broaden our views on how things might of have been. We dont learn new things by clinging ourselves to old ideas but by challenging the status quo and finding new layers of understanding beneath the surface clouded by of our biases :o

Thanks,

J

[fearn]

Hi Jussi,

I have to take the opposing view here. Human fighting arts evolved with and around the weapons they had to use. I think we can all subscribe to the notion that different weapons have their own best strokes. To use an extreme example, you really don't want to use a rapier the same way you'd use an axe. Now, some arts, primarily but not exclusively in the East, have an ideal set of moves, and use those moves with all sorts of weapons. This is your idea of "fighting with an art." I have seen this taken to extremes, where (for instance) a chinese tiger fork is used with to chop with like a guando, even though it doesn't have a sharp edge.

On the other side are the functional types who figure out the best strokes with the weapon, and then built their art bottom-up from this. This is the way most weapon arts develop, I think. There are, of course, arts where technique and philosophy mix.

I'd also like to point out that culture matters here. To go back to the samurai, I'd point out that they carried the daisho (long and short combination) primarily because the two swords were the badge of the samurai in Tokugawa Japan, by the Shogun's fiat, not by custom. Yes, the wakizashi works better in close quarters, but the thing is, prior to the Tokugawa shogunate, many samurai carried a tanto instead of a wakizashi, and did so on the battlefield. In this case, we're grafting a functional explanation onto what was basically a legislative act.

So far as the keris goes, I have no idea whether it can be held in an icepick grip, although it would be fun to find out. Equally, it could be that this blade was the equivalent of a man's necktie, worn not for physical utility but because it was part of his normal clothing. The handle was twisted out of the way, either to make it easier to wear (as Alan suggested), and it may also have signaled that the owner wasn't interested in getting into a knife fight.

My 0.0002 cents,

F

[Jussi M.]

Hi Jussi,

I have to take the opposing view here.

Go ahead, make my day! :D

Human fighting arts evolved with and around the weapons they had to use. I think we can all subscribe to the notion that different weapons have their own best strokes. To use an extreme example, you really don't want to use a rapier the same way you'd use an axe.

Neither of us was there to witness how fighting arts really evolved but your point sounds logical to me. What I dont agree however is your example regarding rapier and axe. - Of course no one would want to use a rapier like an axe or vice versa as they are not functional on each others roles. A short keris however is very functional in both the common way of grabbing it as well as held on an ice pick grip. Norman Bates proved this on Alfred Hitchcocks Psycho when he used a kitchen knife of the same length as the Bugis kerises discussed on this thread on the nice blond.

Yes, the wakizashi works better in close quarters, but the thing is, prior to the Tokugawa shogunate, many samurai carried a tanto instead of a wakizashi, and did so on the battlefield. In this case, we're grafting a functional explanation onto what was basically a legislative act.


Maybe, maybe not.

So far as the keris goes, I have no idea whether it can be held in an icepick grip, although it would be fun to find out. Equally, it could be that this blade was the equivalent of a man's necktie, worn not for physical utility but because it was part of his normal clothing. The handle was twisted out of the way, either to make it easier to wear (as Alan suggested), and it may also have signaled that the owner wasn't interested in getting into a knife fight.

Equally to the example of feodal Japan yes, the keris was a part of attire and there were customs that were more or less strictly obeyed. However if anything the people of ancient were practical. - They had to be as being a good problem solver and practical at what one did was the key to survival. Hence custom or not I have a hard time believing that if some guy at some place decided that grabbing a smaller keris on a reverse grip was a good idea for survival on a physical bout he wouldnt have modified the grip to suit his style of using the blade.

I said this before but I will repeat what I said: not all systems had similar views on what was the best way of using a weapon. Different systems differ on their emphasis on range, ratio between hitting, kicking, grappling what´ll have you - all that stuff. A man with a background in a system leaning heavily towards being on the ground and grappling surely had a different way of looking at things than say a guy with a background on keeping the fight on upright position with lots of hitting like, say, boxing. - And, just like youd grab a hammer closer to the head when you are hammering small nails that bent easily and grab it from the very end to get more momentum via the longer range of motion for those 2X4 nails when you are building a fence, maybe some fighters of old used different methods of getting the work done with the same tool depending on the situation at hand. - Like nails not all opponents were alike either nor equipped likewise what come to hardware.

Both rapier and axe are very limited in the ways they can be used. Not necessarily so with a small keris. Ask Norman, he knows :D

http://www.libertyfilmfestival.com/libertas/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/psycho_shot5l.jpg

To get serious again I cannot see any reasons why a small keris could not be used on this manner. I think this is a question that may be worthy of a serious discussion.

Thanks,

J

[Rick]

Unless he never intended to use the keris as a weapon; merely as a cultural symbol where all are expected to conform .

When all go armed in a society; maybe there are customs we have no idea about .

Maybe these backward handled keris were expressly made for social gatherings . :shrug:

[Jussi M.]

Unless he never intended to use the keris as a weapon; merely as a cultural symbol where all are expected to conform .

When all go armed in a society; maybe there are customs we have no idea about .

Maybe these backward handled keris were expressly made for social gatherings . :shrug:

Possible but unlikely in my opinion as many men at that time had no money to spend of different kerises for different parties. Also why use the adhesive if not to make sure the hilt stays put on the blade? So far I havent heard of a single keris like this which has not had it´s hilt attached firmly to the peksi.

[Rick]

Well ... that would prevent the handle from being re-oriented into a more dangerous position; wouldn't it . :)

[David]

Forgive me Jussi, you seem to have taken some kind of offense from my posting. I can assure you that it was not intended that way.
What i was attempting to point out, and why what you have or have not done is indeed relevant to this question, is that the shape of the hilt on the keris in question makes the "ice pick" grip just a little bit awkward. This is why i asked you if you had ever tried holding it that way, because as examples of your point you presented an ice pick, not a keris with this style hilt.
Also, the butcher knife which Norman Bates uses in the movie (and this is just a movie, not real life) is not a keris either. So no Jussi, Norman doesn't know. He never comes near a keris in the movie. This grip would not be nearly as comfortable with a keris with this style of handle. Form follows function. Holding a keris with this style hilt almost demands a rather specific grip. If you hold the keris with this grip it becomes obvious how one can move and fight with this weapon.
BTW, the blade shown in the relief is not a keris, at least not as we know the keris today. It can and has been argued to be a kind of proto-keris buda, but it is not the same weapon as the keris up for discussion in this thread. It also does not have the same style of hilt as the keris that is up for discussion so i do not find the comparison all that helpful.
Lastly, even if this relief were relevant you can not always trust art to provide an accurate descriptions of ancient warfare. If so we would have to conclude that the Spartans went into battle bare-ass naked which is nothing more than an idealized artist's rendition of the perfected Spartan, not the logical nor historical account of Spartan battle methods. So no, i do not believe that this relief necessarily shows us a "truthful portrayal" of how even this proto-keris weapon was used, though it is indeed possible that this overhand stab was one of the ways to use it. Frankly though, from a purely martial perspective, i find the overhand stab to be ineffective in most cases and opens up the entire mid-section of the assailant to easy counter-attack. It is also easily blocked.
Jussi, i am not personally clinging to old ideas here. What i am doing is taking the keris in hand and actually trying to use it in different ways to see what the most logical and effective grip and form of attack actually is. No, i was not there and neither my conclusion nor you own will ever be conclusive. But i am not merely following the status quo either.

[fearn]

Hi All,

One point of clarification, what I meant to say when I asked whether "the keris" could be held in an icepick grip was whether this particular keris could be held in an icepick grip, as David already asked. If it can't be held reversed, then that's not the explanation for the orientation of the hilt.

As for the non-functional blade explanation, I believe that there are plenty of non-functional modern keris, including specimens that are a handle attached to a sheath. It's similar to a man's neck tie. It used to be for keeping your neck warm, and now it's mostly symbolic. If you think about it, wearing a winter scarf over a necktie is goofy from the functional perspective, but it is normal behavior in western society when it's cold.

As for the utility of the reversed grip, I'm not a knife fighter, but I've certainly seen the arguments for and against. So far as I can tell, you can use the icepick very effectively, at least with a short blade. Do a google search on "Piper knife" if you want to see a very scary South African knife fighting system that uses the icepick grip almost exclusively. You can also use a knife in a sword grip quite effectively too. It's mostly a question of what range you want to fight at, and the icepick comes into its own when you're close in.

Be that as it may, the question on this particular blade is whether it can be held in a functional way, reversed grip or not. If it cannot be held comfortably in any grip (and do check the left-handed grips too), then we should be talking about non-functional explanations.

F

[David]

Hi Fearn. Your point is well taking on the use of the ice pick grip with the Piper knife system. It looks fast, fierce and dangerous from the videos. Of course this grip is used with a rather small knife and in conjunction with a specific martial art which maintains a protection of the torso throughout. In fact the knife seems to rarely move above the torso in these moves, quite unlike Norman Bates use of the butcher knife in Psycho. Also the elbows and your other hand are almost as likely to deal the finishing blows as the knife. Very scary looking art.
I tried some of these moves (at a much slower speed i must say :o ) with the reverse grip and must say that i can see doing some effective fighting this way. The hilt does still feel a bit awkward in the hand though. Then i turned the blade back and adopted the more accepted grip which actually allows a grip on the blade as well as the handle with the thumb and fore finger gripping the base of the blade. From my perspective the blade control and speed is greatly enhanced in this position. So is striking distance. If i were going to fix the hilt in just one position this would be the one i would chose. Others might have a different experience. Your mileage may vary. ;) :)

[Jussi M.]

Forgive me Jussi, you seem to have taken some kind of offense from my posting.

Noup, you got that wrong David - no offense what so ever :)

I am not a native English speaker and sometimes getting the right tone is difficult, especially with such a difficult form of humor as sarcasm. Yes, I am fully aware that Mr. Bates didnt use a keris on the Hitchcock movie but that wasnt the point. The point (pun intended) was that it could of have been a small keris but nuff about that :p

It seems that this subject is clear now. That is good. Now we know.

Cheers,

J

[A. G. Maisey]

This discussion has begun to turn in a direction that has been previously travelled.

The destination of those previous journeys along this road was not a pleasant one, so I do hope that during this current journey we can all admit the very obvious truth that all men do not walk in the same way, take paces of the same length nor cover ground at the same speed.

I would hope that some of what I may write will encourage others to pursue the sources of knowledge of the keris.

Raffles was in Jawa after 1812 and his History of Java was finished before 1818. In "History" he wrote that the keris in Jawa at that time had assumed the position of the small sword in Europe of fifty years previous. In other words, it was a required part of the dress of a gentleman, and was occasionally used as a weapon.

From other historical writings, for example Thorn "The Conquest of Java", the works of Ricklefs, especially "War, Culture and Economy in Java, 1677-1726", and the Pigeaud's "Java in the Fourteenth Century" we can see that the keris was most definitely a weapon, and not only a weapon for personal use, but a weapon used in the battle field context, and in the context of a hunting arm.

In 19th century Central Jawa, condemned criminals were armed with a keris and matched with tigers .

In 14th century Majapahit, exhibitions of keris play were staged for entertainment.

Again during the Majapahit period, civilians carried the keris and used it at the slightest provocation (Groeneveldt, "Historical notes on Indonesia & Malaya from Chinese Sources).

I once knew a retired British serviceman who had been stabbed in the thigh with a keris by a combatant in Malaya during the 1950's.

The temple carvings of Prambanan

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/Prambanan.html

and Panataran

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/PANATARAN.html

are accepted by authorities in this field of study to represent the style and conditions existing in Jawa at the time they were carved. The stories are Indian, but the carvings on the Javanese candis show Javanese representations. The keris-like daggers shown in these carvings were one of the contributing factors to the origin of the modern keris. They were not keris as we now know the keris, but they shared many similarities with the modern keris. My "Origin" article

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/index.html

presents more on this subject.

From a simplistic point of view, the keris developed from an overarm stabbing weapon to a weapon used with a rapier grip. This is true, and can be demonstrated by the evidence. However, like the keris itself, its usage has many facets, and those facets do not allow for a line of reasoning in respect of method of usage that restricts the keris to a single grip.

George Cameron Stone, "Glossary" (1934) :- "Prince Pakoet Alam at Djockjakarta showed me the old methods of fencing with a kris. He said that if a man had only one kris with him he held the scabbard in his left hand with the straight part extending along his forearm and guarded with it. If he had two krisses, he took his favourite in his right hand, and the other in his left to guard with. The left-hand kris was held against his forearm with the edge and the point at the top outward. In this position it was not only useful as a guard , but if his opponent tried to catch his arm a slight motion would cut his hand severely."

We are now in the 21st century. We are long way from the time when the keris was used as a daily tool to defend and to attack. Many of us are a long way from the cultural thought patterns that guided the users of keris in those far distant times. What we see as a keris, and the ways in which it was used is a construct that is very often based upon our experience in our own world, that is the world of the 21st century:- a world where previous development has produced order and formality. We see the end product of more than 1000 years of development, both of the keris, and of the ways in which it might have been used. To understand the keris we need to try to understand it in the cultural and historical context in which it was used.

Don Draeger was not an authority on the keris, but he was a respected authority on Asian combat and weapons systems. He is reported as saying something to the effect of:- " At this remove from the time when the keris was used as a weapon, who can state with any authority exactly how it was used in the past?"
Of course, nobody can.
We have a few isolated representations of various grips, we have a few isolated historical reports, but we do not have any detailed writings of old time keris usage. We can construct a general theory on keris usage, we can use logic to provide probabilities, but we cannot state with any certainty that any particular method of use of the keris is "correct".

Consider this:- if the modern keris was invariably used in a rapier grip, why is the base assymetric? Material was scarce, the keris was not an implement for structured fencing, so the assymetry provided only very rare function as a protective device. A much shorter extention of the gonjo would have served perfectly well as a support for the base of the index finger when the keris was used in a rapier thrust.
Form does follow function as David has pointed out.
Try holding a keris, especially one with an upright hilt, in the reverse position, with the ham of the hand supported by the gonjo.
Now look at the temple carvings.

I would suggest that a master of the keris, from the distant past, would not have limited himself to any single grip of his weapon, but would have possessed the virtuosity to adapt the grip to the circumstances.

[BluErf]

Hi Jussi,

The relief carving showed an ancient blade which may or may not be the predecessor of the keris. Also, we do not know how the ancients used the earliest kerises, but staying in the here and now, we do see silat groups (i.e. Malay/Indon martial arts schools) which demonstrate the use of kerises as we know today. I'm in Singapore, somewhere in the heart of Southeast Asia, home to the keris, and I'm fortunate to see some of such silat demonstrations in person. Some of my Malay friends are actual silat practioners or are good enough to be in a position to instruct in silat.

I tried searching for a youtube video on how the Malay/Bugis keris is used, and I think the following is a good example to show how kerises are used now, and by extension, the likely position the hilt would have assumed for the purpose of fighting. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDFgG_LhKlg

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai Wee I agree that the relief carving from Candi Panataran, that Jussi has chosen to illustrate his point, is perhaps not the best for this purpose.

In spite of the fact that reproductions of this relief have been published many times in Indonesia to illustrate the historicity of the keris, in fact, it lacks some of the features that we would normally like to associate with the keris, including the archaic proto types of the keris.

This deficiency has never seemed to worry those Indonesian publishers though:- they simply altered the published images so that the missing gandik was magically included, and the blade became assymetric.

There are other representations of proto keris at Panataran, but I believe it is perhaps better to use one of the representations from Prambanan. This representation inarguably has the assymetric blade and gandik of the modern keris, and it dates from an earlier time than Panataran.

I have studied these carvings at first hand, under magnification, and over a period of years. I have obtained verification from Indonesian archeological officials as to the original state of the Prambanan carving shown here, and I have confirmed this verification by my own examination under magnification.

The image shown here from Prambanan is original, undamaged, and unaltered, and it shows a keris-like dagger which possesses many of the features of the modern keris. It also shows the way in which these daggers were used.


Jussi, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read your posts is that you are saying pretty much the same thing that I'm saying, that is:- we do not know exactly how the keris was used in the past, however, there is more than one possible way in which it could have been used.

[David]

For me it is not a question as to whether the keris or even the proto-keris were or could be used in an overhand stabbing action. What we are talking about is the keris at hand in this thread. All of the proto-keris in these reliefs have an upright handle as far as i know. The angled handle presented in this thread and common to the other bugis keris that we are discussing with "reversed" hilts presents a completely different challenge if we consider using the "ice pick" grip for an overhand stab. I think that both Alan and Jussi are absolutely correct. We will never know exactly how the keris and proto-keris were used in the past and certainly more than one grip is a possibility. But i think the question in this thread must remain specific to this type of angled hilt, not the upright hilts of the proto-keris or other upright hilts common to other keris. What i am suggesting is that everyone who has such a keris at hand try these various grips with the hilt in these different positions.. How does it feel? Which grip feels "right" to you? For me the "ice pick" grip with the "reversed" hilt is just a bit awkward, though it is usable. It feels uncomfortable in the hand though. Does this mean that it wasn't ever used? Not at all. We can only ask ourselves what is most likely based on practicality and what we know of these keris and the fighting styles that exist today.
Alan, you wrote: "I would suggest that a master of the keris, from the distant past, would not have limited himself to any single grip of his weapon, but would have possessed the virtuosity to adapt the grip to the circumstances." This may well be so, but if one is to fix a hilt in one position for battle, which would it be? This is not so much a problem with an upright hilt style, but with these angled hilts it is a different story. While i do find that the "ice pick" grip is workable with the hilt in a reverse position, it seems near impossible with the hilt in what has been assumed to be the "normal" position. Try it and see for yourself. The master might have the virtuosity to adapt the grip to different circumstances, but he would not be able to change the positions of a fixed hilt in the heat of battle if those circumstances changed. :shrug:

[fearn]

Hi Jussi,

Thanks for checking with this keris. We all seem to agree that it should be held in a forward (rapier, sword) grip.

Thanks for checking. Just to make sure I'm not getting too confused, did you check a keris with a reversed hilt, or a normal hilt?

Hi Alan,

I'm not disagreeing with the notion the keris in general are designed to be held point forward. I've read Draeger and Stone as well, and to me, this was obvious.

My concern in this case is that we have a keris with the hilt mounted "wrong," and one hypothesis to check is that some creative Bugi mounted the hilt differently that way so that it could be held in a different (icepick) grip. This can be tested simply by holding a keris with a reversed hilt. If it's still more awkward in reverse, then the hypothesis is disproved.

Best,

F

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm sorry gentlemen, I moved away from consideration of the keris that began this thread long ago.

To me, the question in respect of this specific keris of Freddy's cannot be settled:- we know too little about it; anything is possible. I'm just not prepared to hypothesise in respect of something that we don't have enough evidence for.I believe I corrected my initial spontaneity in post #20.

What we do know is that keris of this type did on occasion have their hilts mounted in this reverse position.

Did this specific keris of Freddy's have its hilt mounted in reverse position by a past owner indigenous to place of origin of this keris?

I most sincerely doubt if any amongst us can answer that question.

My most recent posts have most definitely been in respect of the keris in general.

In so far as adapability of the Bugis style hilt to both rapier style and icepick style grip. With the hilt in a position where it extends above the gandik, an ice-pick grip is not only possible, but is distinctly comfortable and feels "right", to use this grip with the hilt in this position, the blade is reversed so that the side of the hand rests on the long part of the gonjo.

With a hilt in the reverse position, again, both method of grip is possible.

Personally, I don't think that it would have mattered a great deal how the hilt was fixed:- each person would have fixed it as suited himself, and used it according to his own style. Possibly an ordinary farmer or seaman could have gone through his life without ever drawing blood with his keris, and he probably had only a vague idea of how to use it, on the other hand the professional enforcer, or pirate, or standover man, or bandit, or other frequent user of violence would have had a bag of tricks that allowed him to use any one of a number of grips, as the circumstances demanded.

Many years ago I had the good fortune to be taught just a little of the way in which a professional assassin thinks and works. The principal philosophy of my teacher was that one never exposes onself to risk. One waits until the opportunity presents itself and then does the job. This man was Chinese-Javanese and he was not a user of a keris, but a user of knife. Bearing in mind the principles of Malay and Javanese warfare and personal combat, I doubt that the philosophy of experienced users of the keris in times past would have varied much from those of my teacher. If this is so, it is only reasonable that the professional would not limit his ability to earn his pay by limiting himself to a single method of use of his tools of trade.

It seems that once again I have wandered away from discussion of Freddy's keris. Whatever anybody wishes to propose in respect of that particular keris, I agree with.

However, in respect of the keris in general and its methods of use in historical times, I suggest that although we cannot know anything about these with any certainty, a prudent user would have had flexibility of style.I think that the only thing I cannot agree with is that there might have been a rigid "one style suits all" approach, universally adopted by all users.

[Jussi M.]

Greetings,

I know nothing about these things but did found this on the internet.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w308/JCJM/Kuva32.png

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w308/JCJM/Kuva33.png

Short video: One Dutch-Indo´s training footage from the 1970´s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDyHQdG5TdI)

Thanks,

J

[Jussi M.]

Jussi, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read your posts is that you are saying pretty much the same thing that I'm saying, that is:- we do not know exactly how the keris was used in the past, however, there is more than one possible way in which it could have been used.

My thoughts exactly Mr. Maisey.

Thanks,

J

[David]

Well Jussi, Victor and his family have quite the reputation in silat circles AFAIK ;) , so it is obvious that at least some silat teacher is using this "reverse" hilt position and alternative grips in their art. His grip(s) do(es) look a little different from the "ice pick" grip we have been discussing though. That grip i still don't find comfortable in either position, but Alan does so i guess it is fairly subjective. To each their own. Live and let live. ;) :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Standard orientation, and reverse orientation using the broken grip keris previously shown.

Forward grip and reverse grip.

Different parts of the hand act as the grip cushion, all grips shown feel natural and comfortable.

Other variations of grip are possible and could work as well as the ones I picture here.

[drdavid]

Unusual position, that last illustration of yours Alan. Ergonomically we dont vertically load the wrist much in that position. Interestingly there has been some work on using a hiking pole in almost exactly this position with a grip not unlike the keris grip. The research suggested that it was a good position to take load in, so it is very likely you could use a keris quite efficiently with this grip.

http://www.pacerpole.com/index.html

drd

[A. G. Maisey]

The keris in the hand using that last position is very, very natural and comfortable. The ham of the hand is fully supported by the top of the gonjo, and it feels as I could give a blow a lot of force. In fact, this is exactly an ice-pick grip, except that the hilt does not go up through the centre of the hand.
Now, if we look at the reliefs of proto-keris at Prambanan, we see pretty much the same grip; yes, the hilts on those weapons are vertical, but the force of the blow is taken into the ham of the hand where it is supported on the gonjo.

You can deliver a blow with a lot of force using such a grip.

[PenangsangII]

IMHO, keris grip should be held in the most natural way, whereby the blade should be parallel to the ground and the hilt is angled about 45 degree from the gandik. You dont have to use a lot of force to penetrate your opponents abdomen or neck, but rather the palm will do the job with very less effort. Other ways could be deemed taboo in the regarded palace silat, but of course kampung folks would have other ideas. Though probably as effective, it is still considered wrong in palace ethics. I am speaking from the Malay palace point of views BTW ;)

[Jussi M.]

Dont you dare to stab me on a wrong way! :D

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w308/JCJM/psycho99.jpg
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IMO this guy got it right - it´s not the style that counts, its the end result!

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w308/JCJM/TheShiningLarge.jpg

:D

Thanks,

J

[Freddy]

Most interesting post, guys.

I've been reading and looking at the added links.

As promised, I post pictures of this keris (or Tappi as Sipakatuo pointed out) when in my hand. At first, I want to state that it's a small keris with a small handle and I have big European hands :rolleyes:

Here is first, in my humble opinion, the best way to hold this keris. The handle, when sheathed, would point a bit to the front, away from the wearer's body.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/bugis1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/bugis2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/bugis3.jpg

Secondly, I put the handle in the position it was when I got this piece. I must say that, after straightening the peksi (or watting), it was easier to get a grip. Before there just wasn't enough room for my fingers. Therefore, I believe the peksi was bent by accident in the past.

I must say in this way you also get a good grip of the keris. This grip and the first one make it possible to deliver straightforward thrusts and also cuts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/bugis4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/bugis5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/bugis6.jpg

[Freddy]

I also tried the 'ice pick' hold. The grip is in the second position. I had to grip the handle in such a way that my little finger was on the blade. My ring finger was supported by the ganja. It was a firm grip, but I wonder if my hand wouldn't be cut if I delivered a downward thrust. :shrug:

Could of course be due to my big hands :p

Anyway, here are the last pics :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/bugis7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/bugis8.jpg

[David]

OK Jussi, you are just cracking me up now. :D
Alan and Freddy, thanks for the photo illustrations. They are most helpful in this discussion.
Yes Alan, that is exactly how i held my keris in the "ice pick" grip. It still wasn't comfortable for me, but that shouldn't stop anyone else if it suits them. :) It does seem perhaps more indisputable (words chosen to avoid the absolute ;) ) that this grip does limit the reach of the blade in action though.
Freddy makes a good point about the size of Western hands in this experiment. And your hilt does seem a bit smaller than the ones Alan and i are working with.
I can't speak to the concept of palace taboos since i don't know enough about this. It does seem to me though that went people get into a fight, especially when their life depends upon the outcome, they tend to fall back on what ever method works best for them.

[Alam Shah]

The keris happens to be a small keris. What is the length of the keris blade? 9" For the sheath, you would want to consider something like this, (( link (http://alamshah.fotopic.net/c1031813.html) )).

[Jussi M.]

Would you like to see my hilt? - it is reversed :D

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w308/JCJM/THE_SHINING-22.jpg

Thanks,

J

[Freddy]

Alam Shah, you get it exactly right : the length is 22,5 cm (or 9 inches).

Fred

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes David, there are no absolutes.

I posted my pics of grip positions only to show that the possibilities are there. In real life situations many things can and do happen that fall outside the parameters of prescribed usage or behaviour, and this ,I am sure, is true of keris usage, as it is of many other things.

We can talk about kraton standards, and silat practices, and so on, and so on, but in days past, and faced with the many possibilities that could arise, I have no doubt at all that the men who used the keris as a weapon developed their own methodologies.

There are many other possibilities of grip that I did not show, but which can be perfect for specific situations.

David, you're perfectly correct in that an ice pick grip does reduce reach, however, to the extent that it reduces reach, it increases power. In a melee situation, as in a press of bodies in combat, the ice pick grip is the preferred grip, however, in a one on one situation, especially where combatants might not be of equal physical stature or prowess, the rapier grip can compensate for those physical shortcomings.

These days I think that perhaps we may tend to see the keris as a rather refined implement:- the "prayer in steel", and so forth, however, if we read our history, it does not take very long to realise that in the distant past it had an entirely different character, and this character was not quite so sanitised as it today.

[PenangsangII]

Kraton or palace is the place where this art is kept alive - in fact most of the totokromo / local customs are still being determined by the palace.

Keris came from the kraton / palace, it's where the most classic silat style still being practised (sometimes secretly to this day). No doubt that commoners would use the keris they deemed fit, but it's still against the normal tatakrama or adab of the palace's standard. So, if iwere asked which way is the most correct way to grip a keris handle, I would opt for the palace's way. Make no mistake, all the grips shown here are correct, as long as they can do the job. I am only pointing out the most correct way.

[Alam Shah]

Kraton or palace is the place where this art is kept alive - in fact most of the totokromo / local customs are still being determined by the palace. Keris came from the kraton / palace, it's where the most classic silat style still being practised (sometimes secretly to this day)...Bear in mind that thru' the ages, the arts may have evolved.. arts lost.. new ways devised.. what is practised now, may not be the way is was practiced say in the 19th or even 17th or 16th century. To me, I wouldn't be absolute about it.. whether in the Malay, Javanese or elsewhere. Just my 2 cents opinion. ;)

[PenangsangII]

Agreed to certain extent.... but the palace is the source that I feel is the closest ways how the keris was wielded in the olden days. Evolved, but still maintained its originality......

[A. G. Maisey]

Penangsang, you are unquestionably correct, from a 20th.-21st. century perspective.

However, what we see and understand from our present perspective is not necessarily applicable to times past.

Equally, when we consider kraton practices and standards as they apply today, those practices and standards do not necessarily reflect the situation from , say, 500 years ago.

In order to understand the keris we need to broaden our studies to include history, literature, sociological and anthropological fields---at least.

I agree with you completely that at our present point in time, the various kratons are arbiters of "correctness" in many fields, however, that "correctness" can only ever extend as far as the influence of any particular kraton. Move into a different area of influence, and the standards of "correctness" can, and do, change.

How much more can those standards change when we move backwards through the dimension of time, and also through the dimension of space?

To understand the past , we need to try to adopt a mode of thought that is in harmony with the past---and that is not always the easiest thing to do.

[kulbuntet]

Would you like to see my hilt? - it is reversed :D

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w308/JCJM/THE_SHINING-22.jpg

Thanks,

J

ROFLMAO
:D

[blue lander]

Apologies for resurrecting such an old thread, but the keris I bought recently, show in this thread...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19929

...also has what would be considered a "reversed" grip, and the blade is firmly attached to the hilt. I tried to pull it out or twist it as hard as I could and it wouldn't budge. It might have been affixed with damar, or maybe some western owner glued it into place. I'll try heating it up and see if it budges.