19th century fencing foils

[William V.]

Hello over there :)

On the special whish of a single person I'm going to present to the forum a matching pair of late 19th century fencing foils. The "ethnographic" aspect may be found in their special grip. They are fitted with a so called "German handle" which means that the quillons are attached directly below the guard, leaving a very small ricasso (in contrast to the Italian style).
The blades were imported by J.H. Lau at 75 Chambers Street, New York. They are both forged at Solingen (Germany) etched with some kind of floral pattern. I assume that they were not used for actual fencing but are nevertheless in a very good condition.

Does anyone have further information on J.H. Lau? I found out a great deal, but I'm still looking for a date when he opened his shop in NY.

All the best


William

[Ed]

Hello over there :)

On the special whish of a single person I'm going to present to the forum a matching pair of late 19th century fencing foils. The "ethnographic" aspect may be found in their special grip. They are fitted with a so called "German handle" which means that the quillons are attached directly below the guard, leaving a very small ricasso (in contrast to the Italian style).
The blades were imported by J.H. Lau at 75 Chambers Street, New York. They are both forged at Solingen (Germany) etched with some kind of floral pattern. I assume that they were not used for actual fencing but are nevertheless in a very good condition.

Does anyone have further information on J.H. Lau? I found out a great deal, but I'm still looking for a date when he opened his shop in NY.

All the best


William

Hi.

He was a tall man as the clip demonstrates. And he entered the country in 1889.

Fortunately you can search over at the New York Times.



Here is the first page of a search I made (http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?frow=0&n=10&srcht=s&query=J.H.+Lau&srchst=p&submit.x=13&submit.y=9&submit=sub&hdlquery=&bylquery=&daterange=full&mon1=01&day1=01&year1=1981&mon2=11&day2=18&year2=2008)

There are a lot of hits, perhaps what you are looking for is in there somewhere. You might find copies of the NYC Directory and see where his establishment makes it's first appearance.

Good luck.

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding photos William! and welcome to our forum!!! :)

These foils are extremely nice, and I have often wondered how the types varied. I have only ever known of the modern versions of French, Italian and foils or sabres. It seems interesting that these appear almost vestigial versions of the famed Spanish cuphilt.

I'd like to know more on the different types of foils used in the 19th century, and hope we can include more on some of the makers and outfitters who provided them. A most interesting sector in arms collecting!!!!

All the best,
Jim

[William V.]

Thanks for the replies ;)

@ Ed:
Very good hint. But unfortunately I have already searched through all hints on the NY Times archive. The date you mentioned is 1869 :o
But I'm not sure if all the dates an information are related to the same person :shrug:
They could have been 2 persons with the same name....
Unfortunately the TIMES is quiet on the matter when he started his business. Further inquiries with the Brooklyn Library haven't brought up anything new. The NY Library offered a service to check for material but charges 60 Dollar per hour even if they don't find anything.
Thanks for the hint on the " NYC Directory", I'll see what I can find :)

@Jim
regarding the different grips: There are a lot more. Especially in Italy it seems common that every great "maestro de armas" up to the 1930' developed his own handle according to his own method of fencing.
I might post more on the different styles (depending on the time :D ).

So far for now,

all the best

William

[Jim McDougall]

Hi William,
It would really be great to have some more examples of the type hilts and styles of these civilian foils. With your posts I was compelled to see if I could find more on these very undiscussed weapons in the world of arms and armour and have found that there are few, if any, resources with any amount of comprehensive information.
While the history of fencing is well represented by a number of books, one of the most thorough that I have found, "By The Sword" (Richard Cohen, 2002), is well written and gives fascinating accounts and history, but little in any description of the weaponry.
The only specific references I found noted the effort to find a weapon that was specifically for sport and presumably practice, in the court of Louis XIV in France, was the "...blunted, rectangular section foil". It describes further the first masks of c.1750 of tin with peep holes or horizontal slits for the eyes, which while offering protection, still left potential for injury, much as with the jousting helms in medieval times. Much as in that case, there did occur eye injuries with the blade entering through the holes. By 1770, the first wire mesh masks were introduced.

With that, we are left wondering just what the earliest foils looked like, were they very different from those seen today? Were there distinct differences in the features of the foil preferred by the various countries who practiced this civilian sport? Did these change in any particular way as the sport developed?

These are some of the things I hope we can bring into this discussion thread, and I'm really glad you have brought this fascinating subject to the forum! :)
Thank you!

All the very best,
Jim

[Chris Evans]

Hi William,

Those look to me like decorative display foils. Their hilts aproximate that of the Flamberg type transitional rapier, but without the pas dáne (see E.Castle).

Cheers
Chris

[broadaxe]

Hello all. I had my own short time of interest in 19th century fencing weapons, it isa subject yet to be thoroughly researched, as Jim said. By the way, it is not less "ehtnographical" than any other flyssa or shamshir (just for example).
Matching sets of highly decorated foils and epees were sold as "case of swords" = presentation gifts and trophies to champions and maestros.
The foil appeared first at the second half of the 17th century, just as a drill substitute to a sharp smallsword. Later on, when fencing was booming as a popular sport in Western Europe It has became as fencing tool of its own, especially with women & children because of its lighter weight and sometimes shorter length. One must remember that honor duelling was still a regular did at the end of the 19th century and it was customary for all gentlemen to be trained in swordplay as a matter of manhood; the heavier epee with its longer stiffer blade and large bowl guard was considred as the weapon of honor, so cases of matching decorated epees were reserved for serious affairs.
I think you will find interest in those links: http://www.tcasfencing.com/antique_fencing_catalog.htm
http://www.fencingmuseum.com/index.htm

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding input Broadaxe! and welcome!
BTW, no need to worry about ethnographic or not. The reason we began the European Armoury was to diversify into other fields of arms and armour study.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

While not strictly concerning fencing foils, discovered an interesting note from early classical antiquity with most distant relation to fencing, from about the 12th century BC,

"...the long rapier, which was the commonest type in the shaft graves, was not Mycenaean in origin, but had been developed by the Minoan bronzesmiths of Crete".
"...it is a huge weapon,-many of the extant examples exceed three feet in length, without the elaborate hilt attachments with which they were originally fitted- but this in itself reduced its practical value. A heavy blow on the edge of the sword, if it did not shatter the slender blade was likely to snap the even thinner tang, so that hilt and blade parted company. In many cases the swords have been found with thier tangs broken in this way, probably during use. Strictly these are thrusting weapons and thier designed use must have been largely limited to the fencing duels, between single champions, we see represented on some signet rings of the period".
"Arms and Armour of the Greeks"
A.M.Snodgrass, 1967 , pp.15-16
Just thought it was interesting while we discuss the history of fencing.

All best regards,
Jim

[broadaxe]

Jim, the citation is very interesting indeed.
Back the original subject, I'm aware of two individuals who are being regarded as a "living source" of classical and olympic fencing. Interestingly both were fencing instructors (one of them still is) and both hold private fencing museums:
Maitre (maestro) Rudy Van Oeveren http://musee.escrime.free.fr/
Maitre Jaque Castanet http://www.antiquaire-escrime.com.fr/index.htm
I have met with Mr. Castanet in person and visited his museum - it is most fascinating, and one can touch (and buy...) almost everything. Note the antique-looking swept-hilt foil on the opening page, it is possibly the oldest known survivng foil, circa 1670. For me, the section of sharp epees was the most interesting part, he has pairs of varied hilts including cup-hilt style that were used in Spanish colonies. If there is interest I can upload here some pics I took there.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, the citation is very interesting indeed.
Back the original subject, I'm aware of two individuals who are being regarded as a "living source" of classical and olympic fencing. Interestingly both were fencing instructors (one of them still is) and both hold private fencing museums:
Maitre (maestro) Rudy Van Oeveren http://musee.escrime.free.fr/
Maitre Jaque Castanet http://www.antiquaire-escrime.com.fr/index.htm
I have met with Mr. Castanet in person and visited his museum - it is most fascinating, and one can touch (and buy...) almost everything. Note the antique-looking swept-hilt foil on the opening page, it is possibly the oldest known survivng foil, circa 1670. For me, the section of sharp epees was the most interesting part, he has pairs of varied hilts including cup-hilt style that were used in Spanish colonies. If there is interest I can upload here some pics I took there.


Outstanding Broadaxe!!! There is indeed interest, so please post :)
Thank you for sharing these links!!

All the best,
Jim

[kronckew]

yes, broadaxe, please post more. i have a nostalgic fondness for the epee as i was trained in it and fenced on my varsity college team 40 odd years or so ago. (we had a very good hungarian coach, an ex- hungarian cavalry officer).

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/stuff/Yearbook2.jpg

[broadaxe]

Hungarians are very famous as fencers, espacialy with epee.
Here are some pics, feel free to post questions, I hope I can answer all :o

[Chris Evans]

Hungarians are very famous as fencers, espacialy with epee.
Here are some pics, feel free to post questions, I hope I can answer all :o

Hi,

Absolutely fantastic - Thank you for sharing them.


Some years ago, I sa a similar collection (in variety and scope) in Buenos Aires. Walked out with a very light wallet and a couple of swords.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Beautyful pieces you show there, Broadaxe. Do they belong to you ? What a fascinating colection :cool: .
If you people don't mind, let me take the opportunity to have in this thread some authorities in this area, and ask for coments on one "and half" foils i have; unfortunately one of them has a blade broken by its half length.
The entire one has a 87 cms blade and still keeps a very thin brass wire wraped around the leather grip. I never knew what the term BEDEL means.
All the marks on the blade are well visible. There is also the figure 5 engraved; i wonder if that represents the size of the sword.
The other example has a completely identical grip, only missing the wraping wire. The blade has only one mark, ASOLINGEN; i wonder what the letter "A" added to the word Solingen means.
Coments on these pieces would be much welcome, namely on their provenance and possible age.
Fernando

[broadaxe]

Hi Fernando. All the photos were taken at the private museum of Maitre Jaque Castanet in France. For me this is just a side field of interest. The number 5 stands for length of the blade, which is the adult standard. For youth it used to be #3, and there was a rare longer blade, #7. I don't remember the exact measures. The style of your hilt can be dated to the mid-19th century; please check if the fittings are nickel-plated steel thus indicate later age.

[Jim McDougall]

WOW! Broadaxe.....now THATS what I'm talkin' about!!!
Thank you so much for posting these, and its wonderful to see such a grouping of fencing swords and masks.

Pretty much speechless at this point :) I'll think of something to say, I think!

All the very best,
Jim

[celtan]

In Spain, a bedel is someone in charge of a building, and sometimes the term is used for minor administrative hotel employees.

In this case though, I believe its the name of the store that sold the epees. Aciers Bedel, or Steels Bedel.

The A before Solingen could likewise refer to Aceros or Acieres Solingen.

Best

M



5 [/b] engraved; i wonder if that represents the size of the sword.
The other example has a completely identical grip, only missing the wraping wire. The blade has only one mark, ASOLINGEN; i wonder what the letter "A" added to the word Solingen means.

[William V.]

Hello @ all

Sorry for not posting earlier... my job got the better of me :(

@Fernando:
The 5 indicates indeed the lenght of the weapon (normally "5" was 88 cm), the blade was forged in Solingen most probably by the Weyersberg company (before 1883). I suppose that the "Bedel" is the seller of the weapon and the word (as already said) "acier" meaning "steel", is a kind of proofmark that the metal is truly steel. The fact that "acier" is french for "steel" implies that Bedel is a french distributor (by chance I stumbled across 2 other weapons located in France with the same marking, which speaks for this hypothesis).
The "VjB" is probably the full name of the seller, the last letter standing for "Bedel".
The only thing irritating me is the strange king's head, he looks quite different to the original:
http://www.wkc-solingen.de/ueberuns/index.html

Do you mind posting a high-resolution picture of the head only?
Another interesting point is the question why a french distributor should sell german blades? They had Klingenthal and Chatterault around the corner :shrug:

Regarding the other weapon:
Are there any other markings on the blade except the "ASolingen"?
The way I see it the "A" is the french for "at" Solingen. Indicating that the blade was forged at Solingen. This would show that the blade was for the foreign market.

@Broadaxe:

WOW :eek:
I knew the page of Mr Castanet but am truly amazed by the material he has there. Perhaps I should plan a short trip to Paris ;)
Really nice pictures.

So far and all the best

William

[broadaxe]

The place of Mr. Castanet is not actualy in Paris but is very easy to get, about 20 minutes to the south riding the RER train. One should call for appointment.
As there is interest here are some more pics.

[Jim McDougall]

These are absolutely wonderful photos Broadaxe, and its like taking a trip to this completely captivating shop! It is the kind of magical place someone could spend many hours in wandering through, and admiring all the treasures. It reminds me of the antique weapons stores which existed once upon a time (before ebay) and as a youngster, my awe as I wandered through them.
* interesting old Masonic sword there with the skull and crossbones, and in seeing that with my younger eyes, I would have imagined it as a pirate captains trusty sword :)

Thank you William and Manuel for the input describing these markings and notes on the pieces shown.......I feel another notebook coming on !!! I have often thought of putting together information on fencing weapons, and here we have a great start.

Thank you guys!!!!

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Thanks a lot for your input, Broadaxe, Manolo and William.
Yes William, i see your point about these foils having been imported from Germany to France, when the late had their own production. Mybe this was due to the ever famous Sollingen prestige?
By the way, despite being almost invisible in the pictures,k the letter S can be discerned inside the central section of the decoration efects; maybe this stands for Solingen?
You are right in that the King's head is rather different than the traditional one from Weyersberg. The Monarch in my example has a moustache and a beard ... quite intriguing. Would there be another German (or not) sword maker with a King's head mark ? There must be an explanation for this.

Concerning the other example i have posted, the only mark is indeed ASOLINGEN. I stress that the grip is precisely the same model, whereas the blade is slightly thinner.
Both these examples were acquired in the same place and at the same moment (in Portugal); so i would bet they surely belonged to the same owner.
Fernando

[William V.]

Thanks for the fast pictures Fernando...

Regarding the kings head: maybe there is some kind of forgery into this.
As you said, Weyersberg / Solingen was a well known name too: So why not copy the marking and change it slightly to be sure to get no legal issues?
Is just a wild guess, but with your permission I will ask at Weyersberg directly (they are really nice people) if they ever used this kind of marking (or know of a forger who did.

Regarding the "S": As far as I know, you are right. It stands for Solingen. By the way: Blades intended to be sold to a foreign country are (as far as I know marked with an "A", perhaps for german: "Ausland" which means "Foreign Country"). In addition to this, it is interesting to know that Klingenthal used the same symbol with a "K" (logically for "Klingenthal") in it :rolleyes:

@ Jim: Always a pleasure to help ;)

William

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for the fast pictures Fernando...

Regarding the kings head: maybe there is some kind of forgery into this.
As you said, Weyersberg / Solingen was a well known name too: So why not copy the marking and change it slightly to be sure to get no legal issues?
Is just a wild guess, but with your permission I will ask at Weyersberg directly (they are really nice people) if they ever used this kind of marking (or know of a forger who did.

Regarding the "S": As far as I know, you are right. It stands for Solingen. By the way: Blades intended to be sold to a foreign country are (as far as I know marked with an "A", perhaps for german: "Ausland" which means "Foreign Country"). In addition to this, it is interesting to know that Klingenthal used the same symbol with a "K" (logically for "Klingenthal") in it :rolleyes:

@ Jim: Always a pleasure to help ;)

William





More excellent information William. I would never had known the 'A' might have meant that. The marketing and commercial acumen of Solingen was in a word, magnificent! This huge export machine overpowered locally made products even in Spain, and probably in many cases, France.

The use of spurious makers marks, popular wording etc. was well aligned for clients as well. The kings head was also used early by Johannes Wundes if my memory serves, and was a venerable mark by these times. It seems blades sometimes had numerous kings heads stamped in groupings, as many as four sometimes. In my thinking, this might have something to do with the numerous stamps used as hallmarks on silverwork, perhaps suggesting quality of that level? Just a thought for multiple stamps on regular blades.

There is so much historical data reflected in the curious markings and stamps we find on weapons, and that is why I hope to continue compiling more in these threads for future research. Using the search feature will reveal the most current data on these subjects.

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi,
Like Fernando, I also wanted to post these two fencing foils, ( hope you don't mind) The first I believe to be French mid to late 19th C , blade marked ' C G ' with a crown above ...no idea as to the meaning .The blade tip is sharply pointed :eek: and sinisterly ...judging by the rust pitting this 'point' was made a long time ago. Used for duelling ?? ...... I have no idea ...would anyone know if this was common modification.

The second I think is possibly older.....lots of micro pitting to the guard and blade. The wooden handle has a carved chequered pattern which has bee heavily 'rubbed' from extensive use :cool: No discernable marks but may have lost them due to rust/pitting.

All comments gratefully received....thank you

Regards David

[broadaxe]

Katana, your first foil (actually - the only foil, for the second item please follow) is very interesting: straight hilt made of what seems like leather washers, with a very small pommel; wide soulders at the ricasso. I can risk by say it has been made privately or custom ordered.
Please specify blade length, weight and point of balance. Now, duelling foils are not nonexisting but very rare, simply becuase the thin square/rectangular blade is too flexible.

The other item is a sport/olympic saber. Judging from its wooden grip, design of the bowl guard and I could almost swear it is made of steel - please check it (the guard I mean) with a magnet - it is circa 1920-1930's.

[katana]

Thank you for the reply Broadaxe :) ,
the handle is wood (unknown species) with concentric grooves, gives good 'grip' when held.


Blade length to raised shoulder 83 cms
Overall length is 98 cms
handle (including pommel) is 13cm
POB is 12cms from the raised shoulder.....27.5 cms from the pommel 'end'
weight is 310 grammes.

Would you have any idea what 'C.G' with a crown above (the crown is 'crested' with a cross) I have tried to photograph this but it will not show up clearly.

Thank you for the info on the sabre, the bowl is steel ...there is no evidence of any plating or remains of plating on any of the various steel components. Do you think there was originally ? Thank you

Kind Regards David

[broadaxe]

Unfortunately the initials C.G. do not ring any bell :confused:
The POB is down the blade (comparing to a modern foil), due to the small pommel, and this is also an evidence of an amateure making. I think the broad shoulders were intended to give more weight up the blade - the same way it was on practice longswords of the 15th c. in order to have a safe flexible blade with good balance similar to a fighting sword's. The length is somewhat shorter then the standard. Nevertheless, the work look of high quality.
Steel guard sabers used to have nickel plating and/or coloring, but I don't know if this used to be a must.

[katana]

Hi Broadaxe :) ,
thanks again for your comments. I always thought the foil was unusual. As I said before, the sharp point is 'old', using a magnifying glass I can see the same patination and slight pitting as the blade. The blade isn't as 'whippy' as you might expect. To give you some comparison if the foil is pushed, point first into the wall (pressing on the pommel) there is very little flex. If the same pressure is applied to the Sabre the blade flexes around 3" ( I used a spring balance weighing scales to push the pommels ..both were 'forced' by 5.5 kgs ...approx. 12lbs).
The foil would have no problem in stabbing (quite deeply ) assuming it missed bone :eek: I also found this, perhaps my half hearted thoughts of this being a dueling 'sword' is'nt so wrong :shrug:


"...The foil was invented in France as a training weapon in the middle of the 18th century in order to practice fast and elegant thrust fencing. Fencers blunted the point by wrapping a foil around the blade or fastening a knob on the point ("blossom", French fleuret). In addition to practising, some fencers took away the protection and used the sharp foil for duels. German students took up that practice and developed the Pariser ("Parisian") thrusting small sword for the Stoßmensur ("thrusting mensur"). After the dress sword was abolished, the Pariser became the only weapon for academic thrust fencing in Germany.

Since fencing on thrust with a sharp point is quite dangerous, many students died from their lungs being pierced (Lungenfuchser) which made breathing difficult or impossible. However, the counter movement had already started in Göttingen in the 1760s. Here the Göttinger Hieber was invented, the predecessor of the modern Korbschläger, a new weapon for cut fencing. In the following years, the Glockenschläger was invented in East German universities for cut fencing as well.

Thrust fencing (using Pariser) and cut fencing using Korbschläger or Glockenschläger) existed in parallel in Germany during the first decades of the 19th century - with local preferences. So thrust fencing was especially popular in Jena, Erlangen, Würzburg and Ingolstadt/Landshut, two towns where the predecessors of Munich university were located. The last thrust Mensur is recorded to have taken place in Würzburg in 1860.

Until the first half of the 19th century all types of academic fencing can be seen as duels, since all fencing with sharp weapons was about honour. No combat with sharp blades took place without a formal insult....."

Regards David

A Pariser..

[William V.]

Hi Katana,

regarding the foil (the saber is not that interesting ;)):
Like broadaxe I have no idea which forge might use "CG" under a crown but it was not uncommon to use foils as a substitute for duelling epees. In fact this habit was critisised by contemporary sources (e.g. G. Hergsell in his "Duell-Codex").
Nevertheless: If you could try to get a decent picture I would try to find out more on the weapon.

All the best

William

[katana]

Hi William,
thank you very much for your help :) Using a magnifying glass mounted on a stand I was able to get a much better picture :cool: It would be great if you could find any information on the mark.

Kind regards David

[broadaxe]

Hi David/katana. Please forgive my habit of being sometimes over-critisize, I can't help it as research is part of my daily wages.
If you check my photos from the fencing collection you will find at least one pair of sharp duelling foils - especially those with colonial-looking cup hilts, so I don't have problems with the thought that your foil was indeed for duelling.
Great innovative "macro shots" ;) ! As I can see now there is a small recess between the guard and the shoulders, your foil may bee missing a thick stiff leather washer that used to cover the entire 8 figure guard, thus closing the large holes and protecting the hand.

[William V.]

:eek: good idea using the magnifying glass :)
I've checked the information I have gathered so far and must admit that I've never came across that kind of marking.
Quite interesting is the fact that the marking is on the "shoulder" of the blade and not on the side, because normally blades were marked there.
Judging by the crown, I would guess the blade was forged in England perhaps first half of the 19th century. The strange grip and the observations made by broadaxe seem to indicate that the weapon was made up at a later point in time using (at least) an older blade (perhaps even the guard).
Do you mind posting pictures of the pommel? This might show if the blade is threaded (which can be another indicator for the forging time).


William

[katana]

Hi Broadaxe,
thank you :) ...yes I did notice one of the labels stating 'paire epees du duel ' but because of the cup hilt, longer handle etc. I did not think it was necessarily applicable to mine. I had wondered whether Duelling rapiers may be partly catergorised by the cup hilt etc ( mentioned above ) ...now I know that it is not necessarily so.

Hi William,
thank you for your time in trying to ID the blade marks...very kind of you :) . There is very little regarding fencing during the 18th C / 19th C on the web, in English anyway. I might start 'googling' ('McDougalling' ;) Hi Jim ) using French and or German ... (I can see Babelfish getting a lot of use soon ;) )

The tang of the blade appears to be 'peened' over......whether the pommel is threaded and the tang peened to secure it (prevent it turning) is unclear. What is clear is the fact that pommel and tang were 'mated' sometime ago .All the fittings are nice and tight so it is impossible to gain any more information.....without damage that is ;) The steel in the 'pommel' picture is in fact quite dark with stablised rust, lighting gives the appearance of newer metal.

Kind Regards David
.

[fernando]

... I might start 'googling' ('McDougalling' ;) Hi Jim)...

Hey ... what about paying some royalties for that ? ;)

Fernando

[William V.]

:D everything to keep me occupied from working is welcomed :p

The pommel looks like the blade is not threaded. This would indicate that the weapon is authentic. So we must get back to Broadaxe' first guess about it being a private ordered weapon. Perhaps the personal whims of a fencer were taken into account while designing the weapon. The POB and the strange grip would indicate something like that.

Regarding the blade... I got something, but I want to verify it first...
this might take some time.

Regarding the sharp point: I wouldn't be too sure that it was in fact used as a duelling weapon. It was not unheard of the sharpening of foils, but the chances are quite slim to get one nowadays which has survived the tides of time. So statistically: it must be sharpened later ;)

William

[Chris Evans]

Hi William.

Regarding the sharp point: I wouldn't be too sure that it was in fact used as a duelling weapon. It was not unheard of the sharpening of foils, but the chances are quite slim to get one nowadays which has survived the tides of time. So statistically: it must be sharpened later ;)


I think that I have to agree with you. I have an antique fencing sabre that has a very flexible foible (incapable of a serious thrust), yet had a point put on it, and this despite not having an edge - Quite obviously a later modification.

Cheers
Chris

[William V.]

@ Chris:
I'm getting goosebumps thinking of some "professional" sharpening an old weapon... :mad: ... kind of raping....
Having two older beauties which were ground down to get a sharp point, my heart is breaking every time I see them :(
One is a "training weapon" for duels with a Klingenthal blade (around 1895), with the guard of o duelling weapon which used to have a flattened tip.
Nevertheless a wonderful piece, but... not original any more...
The sharping was done quite professional, I just found out when I checked the length of the weapon and compared it with other weapons.

I've attached two pics.

Coming back to the foil: perhaps the grooves on the grip were made to provide a grip for some kind of leather-wire binding :shrug:
this would keep the wire in it's place.

All the best

William

[Chris Evans]

Hi William,

A very beautiful foil - Thanks for sharing.

Cheers
Chris

[broadaxe]

Beautiful indeed -
yet not a foil, but an epee, note the tri-blade. This is the main duelling weapon of the 19th century, along with the single shot pistol. The shallow hollow indicates an early blade (without a milled groove), the hilt combination suggests an age of 1860-1880's. I used to have a similar epee with a knight's head pommel but of iron rather brass, with a decorated steel dish guard, circa 1900.

[William V.]

Always a pleasure ;)

As stated before: Someone tried to convert it into a "real" fencing weapon and seemed to have used some kind of cutter to sharpen the tip and part of the ricasso (nearly destroying the Klingenthal marking).

@broadaxe
Your dating is nearly correct. The bladesmith markings on the opposite side of the Klingenthal writing indicate 1895 as year of forging.
Can you tell me since when the "milled groove" was used? I was quite sure that it was widely used after electric fencing was invented (for epee this was around 1936); because this made things easier for the forges to meet the requirements of this "new" sport. Although I own a blade most probably dating before that date.
And may I ask how you draw the lines on your suggestion for the dating of the epee?
Thanks in advance.

William

[broadaxe]

Hmmm, I don't know exactly, but according to both Mr. Castanet and my good friend maestro Udi Carmi (The Israeli olympic fencing team coach and a fencing historian by himself), production of the old fashioned epee blade seized by 1940. The electric epee was indeed introduced in the 1936 Berlin Olympics but gained some use only about two decades later, and was reserved for official competitions only for long time.
The post 1940 epee blade has a deep v-shaped fuller, even in a "dry" blade (= non electric). Electric blade has additional deep narrow cuts at the ends of the fuller, to accomodate the conducting wire.
I will try to look up for examples.

By the way, check this fabulous foil here: http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-FRENCH-19th-CENTURY-FENCING-SWORD_W0QQitemZ120343420415QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item120343420415&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A4%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318

[Chris Evans]

Hi William,

Broadaxe is absolutely right, I missed it, that is an epee and instead of having been vandalized, it is a sharp dueling weapon. I think that you have a valuable piece.

Cheers
Chris

[William V.]

@broadaxe

Thanks for the information. It seems quite logical to assume that electric epee fencing was reserved for competitions only (same goes for cable-less fencing today ).
I wouldn't say that blades with a groove for the electric wire in the ricasso are automatically post 1940. If you check the pictures below, you will see, that the blade doesn't have a groove, but is fitted with a point d'arret in a shape used in the late 40ties and 50ties (if I'm not mistaken).

Thanks for posting the link. Looks like a fine weapon even if I can't read the marking :o (perhaps someone elso can read it)

Which company used the "PR" marking? Does anyone know for sure? I would guess Prieur, but I have no proof so far...

@ Chris
Thanks for the flowers :) it is especially the guard of which I'm very fond of... if requested I may post a close up picture.

William

[Chris Evans]

@broadaxe

@ Chris
Thanks for the flowers :)

My pleasure! :D :D :D



t is especially the guard of which I'm very fond of... if requested I may post a close up picture.

William

Please do.

Cheers
Chris

[William V.]

Your wish is my command :rolleyes:

I must admit that the picture is not taken from my weapon but from an auction on ebay. But the guard is identical to mine.
The knights helmet and the glove are signs for knighthood and valour (a reminder to fight bravely and with honour during a duel). The so called fasces are a reminiscence to the Romans and related to the French revolution (many are stronger than one alone). The leaves on the one side are olive tree, reminders of the olympic idea (sport aspect) the other ones are oak which might point to the fencer wielding the blade to be hard and endurable.

If someon knows the meaning of the fasces with the protuding hand, please let me know.

Greetz

William

[Chris Evans]

Your wish is my command :rolleyes:



Nice one!

Cheers
Chris

[William V.]

HEUREKA! Finally at least a small path to follow to the light of knowledge ;)

@katana:
The blade of your foil was most probably forged by a company named Cooper-Goodman. They produced the Chassepot bayonet (which was used between 1866-1874 by France but found many other countries copying it)...

Check out this link (you can see the similar marking clearly):

http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/1866_chassepot.htm

This information might give a rough idea when the foil might be produced. If one takes into account that the firm might not be active for a long time, and might not have much experience with fencing weapons (referring to the strange POB), this could indicate that the foil may be quite rare.... :cool:

So far for now.

I hope someone can carry on the torch and finds more information on the firm itself.


William

[katana]

HEUREKA! Finally at least a small path to follow to the light of knowledge ;)

@katana:
The blade of your foil was most probably forged by a company named Cooper-Goodman. They produced the Chassepot bayonet (which was used between 1866-1874 by France but found many other countries copying it)...

Check out this link (you can see the similar marking clearly):

http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/1866_chassepot.htm

This information might give a rough idea when the foil might be produced. If one takes into account that the firm might not be active for a long time, and might not have much experience with fencing weapons (referring to the strange POB), this could indicate that the foil may be quite rare.... :cool:

So far for now.

I hope someone can carry on the torch and finds more information on the firm itself.


William


Well done and thank you William :) :cool: ,
hopefully with this new 'lead' I can get find more information. Nice epee (that you posted) certainly has a more business-like blade. :cool: Thank you to you and those whom commented on the foil I posted.

Kind Regards David

[William V.]

A pleasure :cool:
but could you please post a picture of the tip?
I'm interested how it was shaped...

William

[katana]

Hi William,
it seems "Cooper and Goodman" made firearms..and seem to have been based in Birmingham..found this...

"......Mr. Goodman’s connection with the gun trade was of long standing. In 1838, when in the employ of the Scholefields, he entered into partnership with Mr. J.R. Cooper, and subsequently with that gentleman’s brother, Mr. Charles Cooper, the business being carried on at first under the name of J.R. Cooper and Co., and afterwards under that of Cooper and Goodman, until 1888....."

http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:YieWjfv8NCgJ:www.archerfamily.org.u k/obituary/goodman_jd.html+%22Cooper+and+Goodman%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk

So on that basis the blade was presumably manufactured , at the latest 1888

Here on this page , Lot 869
http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:bOFBdAzX5yAJ:www.scotarms.co.uk/catalogues/653.htm+%22Cooper+and+Goodman%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=uk
"An UNUSUAL .500 Cal. double barrelled Medium Game Rifle by Cooper and Goodman"

and half way down on this page...
http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:ndrU7SA_jtEJ:www.oldguns.co.uk/4.html+Cooper+Goodman+bayonet&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk

"A fine and rare 1856 Pattern rifled service pistol, 25.5cm sighted barrel fitted with rear leaf sights, border engraved lock stamped "1858" over "TOWER" and with a Crown over "VR" at the tail, full stock stamped "WD" and "COOPER & GOODMAN",

After hours of searching ....I'm all googled out ;) Perhaps it is rare ...hopefully one of the 'firearm boys' :p :) may have further information on Cooper and Goodman......please ;)

William will post a picture of the 'point' soon

Kind regards David

[William V.]

Bad news...

I got in touch with a fellow blade collector who said, that the information on the "crown above c.g" needs to be updated...
The crown is not in style of the era for the UK, additionally it is a fact that Cooper and Goodman always marked without a crown. He suspects the marking to have belgian origins.

Sorry, to says so: but we have to start anew.... :(

William

[katana]

Hi William,
thanks for letting me know ;) ....never mind, I am sure I will discover the maker at a later date. I have even considered whether the blade may be a re-worked swordstick :shrug:

Here are the pictures of the point.(both magnified)

Best Regards David

.

[William V.]

Thanks for the pictures,
you are right, the tip looks quite original...

I may have another lead on the marking :D

Compare the crown on the following marking with your foil.
The blade belongs to a sword produced in 1875 by the Fabrica Nacional de Toledo in Spain. :cool:

All the best

William

[katana]

Hi William,
thanks for your continuing input :) . Going back to the Chassepot bayonet marking ...according to the 'caption' the markings of crown and C.G were verified by Anthony Carter. A quick search shows that he is a respected writer on bayonets ...... :confused: :confused:

http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:yFLmnvJzN24J:www.militaria.co.uk/s_lists/bk-baynt.htm+Anthony+Carter+bayonet&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk

Perhaps he is mis-informed ....or he knows something we don't ;)

However, it was also stated that a number of Chassepots were manufactured in Belgium ......who would have thought a clearly marked blade could be so difficult to identify :shrug:

Thanks for the pictures,
you are right, the tip looks quite original...
William


I am glad it is not just 'wishful thinking' (on my part) that the point may be original to the piece :cool:

Regards David

[fernando]

David, you have a PM.
Fernando

[William V.]

Hello @ all.

Unfortunately Mr Anthony Carter died in 2003... so we won't be able to contact him in regard of the marking.
You won't believe how many "clearly marked" weapons are hard to identify.... for example: the above mentioned "PR" marking on the ebay link.

Perhaps someone has a book on belgian sword markings, which could help identifying the "C.G".

The point LOOKS original, but we are not able to verify it... so we must take the most probable solution to this problem :o

All the best.... and keep looking/searching.

William

[Jim McDougall]

I have just been rereading this thread, and it has developed into an absolutely magnificent example of discussion, presentation, interaction and supported observations that display what true weapons study is all about!!
This kind of joint effort in active research is a prime example of what this forum is meant to promote, where not only the participants learn together, but so do our membership and readers.

As I mentioned in the beginning, there are few resources examining the history and typology of fencing weapons, especially pertaining to makers and suppliers, so it is great to have this thread developing.It is completely fascinating to see the joint participation and ongoing research in examining markings and even when the presumed outcome is not realized, moving on to other possibilities...its like watching forensics examination unfolding, and the unproductive trails stand as benchmarks as well.

Thank you all so much!!! Please keep this going, its exciting to finally be able to learn so much on these fencing weapons, and have this thread develop as a resource for collectors future research.

All very best regards,
Jim

[broadaxe]

@broadaxe

Thanks for the information. It seems quite logical to assume that electric epee fencing was reserved for competitions only (same goes for cable-less fencing today ).
I wouldn't say that blades with a groove for the electric wire in the ricasso are automatically post 1940. If you check the pictures below, you will see, that the blade doesn't have a groove, but is fitted with a point d'arret in a shape used in the late 40ties and 50ties (if I'm not mistaken).

William

William, of course not automatically; this was a process of develpment in the sport. The blade of your Souzy epee does have the deep & narrow milled canellure, but without the additional groove portals for the electric wire. I call this type an intermediate blade. As a point of interesting info, Souzy Paris closed its gates by WWII, so this epee must have been of their later days.

I'm posting here several pics of different types of blades to show differences:
1. Re-fitted dueling epee, came as loose parts without a knuckle bow. The present bow is new. Note the blade has a shallow wide canellure of the late 19th century type. Signed with a sytlized monogram.
2. All original grand epee - very similar blade signed crisply B.P.R. within a cartouche. Nickel-plated steel bowl guard, centered, nickel-plated faceted pommel, riveted tang, metal bound rayskin grip.
3. Point of the above epee - note how the blade turns from tri edge to square (where the arrow is) and tapers into a visciously sharp point.
4. Modern assembled dueling epee with a vintage 'intermadiate' blade - note deep & narrow milled canellure.
5. Electric blade.

[William V.]

Thanks broadaxe for your post... nice weapons :)
Especially the BPR duelling epee :eek:

:D

I think your "timeline" is correct. The only point in which I'm not fully d'accord is the following: I was convinced that Souzy was taken over by Soudet in the 1960's. Do you know for sure that they stopped producing during WWII?

Do you mind posting pictures of the markings on the blades?


All the best

William

[broadaxe]

Thanks broadaxe for your post... nice weapons :)
Especially the BPR duelling epee :eek:

:D Thanks! :o

I think your "timeline" is correct. The only point in which I'm not fully d'accord is the following: I was convinced that Souzy was taken over by Soudet in the 1960's. Do you know for sure that they stopped producing during WWII?
I think I do,this has been verified by two authorities. Anyway, as you probably know, the epee construction for the last, say, 100 years, is that you can take it apart and rehilt it easily. The aluminum bowl guard can be original to the 1930's though. The thin thread grip looks period enough. I will re-check it anyhow.

Do you mind posting pictures of the markings on the blades? Not at all, with pleasure. :) It will just take me some time as I'll be off line for a couple of days.


All the best

William

:cool:

[William V.]

Honour to those who deserve it :rolleyes:

Unfortunately I'm painfully aware that, especially with the introduction of the threaded tang, the weapons are possibly not "original" to one time, but may be assemblys of various "times". By the way, I do the same with my Gardere-handle (1950's) on a 2005 FIE tournament legal epee blade.... ;)
Thanks for the advice anyway.
By the way, it may be interesting to know that the weapon is not assembled correctly: The guard is placed for a left-handed fencer, while the grip is clearly for a right-handed.
To date the weapon correctly (if that is possible) it would be useful to find out more about "Trule, Waffen- und Fechtartikel". Problem is, that if you want to look into the official registration forms you have to pay for it, and the web is silent (MacDougalling doesn't help :) ). But the firm seems to have vanished very fast (or is very old) because even the oldest fencers here do not remember a company with that name.
Perhaps I should spend the money :shrug:

Anyway, we are all waiting for the pictures of your weapons @ broadaxe :cool:

All the best

William

[broadaxe]

Ok, folks, as promissed, here are pics of the marks on the two epees.

[William V.]

Hi there, nice to see you back :)
Thanks for the detailed pictures, the first one is a mystery and gives no clues (at least for me) to solve it. The second marking can be found from time to time e.g. over here:

http://cgi.ebay.es/ANTIGUO-FLORETE-PARA-ESGRIMA-389PA_W0QQitemZ190192202402QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_186?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

Do you know which company/forge hides behind B.P.R?

Greets

William

[broadaxe]

Hi there, nice to see you back :)
Thanks for the detailed pictures, the first one is a mystery and gives no clues (at least for me) to solve it. The second marking can be found from time to time e.g. over here:

http://cgi.ebay.es/ANTIGUO-FLORETE-PARA-ESGRIMA-389PA_W0QQitemZ190192202402QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_186?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

Do you know which company/forge hides behind B.P.R?

Greets

William

Unfortunately, I don't. :shrug: All the seller had to say was that company no longer exists.

[William V.]

There is still a firm working under the name "BPR" and they are working with metal (producing bending machines), but it seems that they are not identical with this firm...

Regarding the question when Souzy went bankrupt (at least it was still a question for me ;) ) I found a remark in a book on fencing weapons by Heribert Seitz in which he stated that Souzy was producing epee points at least until 1961. I don't know how to verify this information, but... perhaps someone else does. By the way, this Mr. Seitz has published some works on ancient european fencing weapons and is quite famous for his two-volume work which seems to be some kind of standart reference book, at least for antique military weapons. The books themselves seem to be sought after, judging the prices :D

Do you know something about this "PR" marking we had a few posts back on the ebay foil (which went for a horrendous price)? Is it Prieur? They never answered to my request but seem to be in business for some time, they state on their web page:
"Prieur : more than two centuries of skill and experience in fencing equipment. "...


So far

William

[broadaxe]

There is still a firm working under the name "BPR" and they are working with metal (producing bending machines), but it seems that they are not identical with this firm...

Regarding the question when Souzy went bankrupt (at least it was still a question for me ;) ) I found a remark in a book on fencing weapons by Heribert Seitz in which he stated that Souzy was producing epee points at least until 1961. I don't know how to verify this information, but... perhaps someone else does. By the way, this Mr. Seitz has published some works on ancient european fencing weapons and is quite famous for his two-volume work which seems to be some kind of standart reference book, at least for antique military weapons. The books themselves seem to be sought after, judging the prices :D

Do you know something about this "PR" marking we had a few posts back on the ebay foil (which went for a horrendous price)? Is it Prieur? They never answered to my request but seem to be in business for some time, they state on their web page:
"Prieur : more than two centuries of skill and experience in fencing equipment. "...



So far

William

Sorry, don't know about that mark. I visited Prieur center in Paris about two years ago, aside sports equipment they supply the French military regulation swords and historical fencing weapons & parts. The electric blade I posted here is fitted with Prieur hilt parts (cup hilt style).

[William V.]

So we've met another dead end on this one... :(
perhaps we'll find another one :o

Does anyone know the book: Le "Qui est qui" de l'arme en France de 1350 a 1970
by Buigne?
Seems to cover "our" time and may reveal some answers :shrug:

@broadaxe:
Check your pm's please :rolleyes: