Late Gothic Crossbows and Accouterments

[Matchlock]

The first two from Peter Finer's site.

More to follow.

Michael

[Matchlock]

The first text is from Christie's sales catalog of 27 April 1988 when this item was first sold by auction.
The second text and color images are from an Italian auction house where it failed to sell for the astronomic estimate they had put on it some weeks ago. Btw., their dating "late 15th century" is too early; the style of the engravings is not datable before ca. 1520.

Michael

[Matchlock]

The first, about 170 cm high, together with a movable protective wall (that was most probably used by a harquebusier, though) , in the Imperial Castle of Nuremberg, the seond in the Bavarian Army Museum Ingolstadt and of somehat smaller dimensions.
The quiver, too, is of unusual size.

Telling from the long, slender iron socket and the tiny arrow tip, the topmost of the two Ingolstadt crossbow bolts was originally an incendiary arrow, the incendiary mass now missing.

The painted protective wall is also in the Bavarian Army Museum Ingolstadt.

Michael

[Matchlock]

The other quiver in the Bayerisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt. Its style of decoration refllects the Eastern European taste.

Michael

[Matchlock]

At the Kelvingrove Museum Glasgow.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Note the painted composite bow.

Michael

[Matchlock]

More.

[Matchlock]

Found these on the internet, possibly taken at the Hungarian National Museum Budapest.

Michael

[Matchlock]

... preserved in the City Museum of Soest, Germany!

Michael

[Matchlock]

One more of the display at the Soest Ostenhof-Museum.

Michael

[Matchlock]

The left one late 15th century, with a horn composite bow.

Michael

[Matchlock]

The wooden tiller completely covered by carved and part colored ivory plaques. The arms are those of Fels-Colonna, The Tyrol.
Note the mark on the tiller trigger.

Michael

[Matchlock]

At the Museum Ferdinandeum, Innsbruck/The Tyrol.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Finally here is the image of the smith's mark on the tiller trigger.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Sold at auction two years ago, bearing an old inventory label from the famos Vienna Collection of Albert Figdor, early 20th century.

Of beechwood. Both the obsolete 14th century form of the crossbow illustrated on the lid and that of the tinned iron mounts denote that the casket was actually made at least some 100 years earlier than the date 1524 suggests. Furthermore, close inspection proves that all the painting is at the same level, only the date 1524 - showing the Gothic form the numeral 4 - consists of a much thicker layer than the rest.

So this fine object should be referred to as a casket for special crossbow bolts (not the common quarrels), and made in the early 15th century, probably as a prize for the best aiming crossbowman and containing the bolts that he won the title with. It seems to have been dated 1524 some 100 years later - or may be exactly 100 years later, possibly in remembrance of the founding of a crossbowmen's guild.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Preserved at the City museum of Cologne, Germany.

In the first picture, the bow is of course inversed; this had been corrected by the time the second picture was taken.

The open curve of the composite bow is due to not having had a string attached for hundreds of years.

The detached bow of a huge wall crossbow also at the Cologne museum.

Michael

[Matchlock]

The wooden core is covered with pig skin, the mouth of the quiver is leather covered, the original leather lid is now missing on almost all surviving samples.

Michael

[Matchlock]

One more detail.

[Matchlock]

Two line drawings, after 1505, from Martin Löffelholz's Nuremberg scrapbook started in 1505. They picture devices to cut slightly curved grooves into cossbow quarrel hafts for insetting wooden or leather flights/fletches to give them a more accurate ballistic spin as they went.

500 year old machine based mass production.

Michael

[Matchlock]

The first dated 1460, made for Duke Ulrich V of Württemberg, Southern Germany.

Michael

[Matchlock]

The rest.

[Matchlock]

A fine Late Gothic crossbow, 1st half 15th century, and two fine 15th century century quivers, all from the former armory of Schloss Hohenaschau, Upper Bavaria, now preserved at the Bavarian National Museum Munich.

Michael

[Matchlock]

A crossbow from the Basle arsenal, in a Christie's sale in the 1990's.

[Matchlock]

... in the Wallace Collection, London.

The crank of the one dated 1600 is missing.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A group of eleven and another of ten, some of the original hafts (Zaine) retaining their wooden (and partially) leather flights.

Sold Bonhams London, 26 Nov 2008.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

More.

[Matchlock]

The rest.

In some of the hafts in the previous part of this post, small holes can be noted drilled into some of the hafts. They give proof that these quarrels were part of later decorative displays such as roundel or fan shaped arrangements which became very popular during the 17th to 19th centuries and to which the quarrels had been fixed by wires.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Sold Bonhams, Nov 26, 2008.

[Matchlock]

... from the Fencing Books by Thalhoffer, 2 vols., dated 1459!

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Six 15th c. crossbow bolts in fine condition, the oak wood hafts drilled for fixing to a later Baroque or Historismus iron panoply, as shown above.
Author's collection, recent acquisitions.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A bolt quiver, early 16th c., in the Netherlands Army Museum (Legermuseum).

m

[Matchlock]

In the Legermuseum Delft, The Netherlands (ex Visser colln.).

[Matchlock]

The description.

[Matchlock]

In the Legermuseum Delft.

[Matchlock]

All in the Higgins Armory, Worcester, Massachusetts.

Best,
Michael

[Carlo Paggiarino]

The wooden tiller completely covered by carved and part colored ivory plaques. The arms are those of Fels-Colonna, The Tyrol.
Note the mark on the tiller trigger.

Michael

Micheal,
do you need better images of the crossbow?
I may have a few!
Cheers.
Carlo

[junker]

Hi Michael,
is the book which is mentioned in the article of the soester museum already availible ?
Dirk

[Matchlock]

Micheal,
do you need better images of the crossbow?
I may have a few!
Cheers.
Carlo


Hi Carlo,

Please forgive my not responding any earlier but my computer was down by virus.

Yes, I would be glad to receive better images and have sent you a PM.

Thanks and best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Michael,
is the book which is mentioned in the article of the soester museum already availible ?
Dirk


Hi Dirk,

I cannot seem to find the article on the Soest Museum you referred to - could you please link me with the quotation?

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

... at Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, sold September 2010.

Please note the Gothic ornaments painted on the bow.

Best,
Michael

[Micke D]

Thank you Michael!

I have seen this one before, and must say that I was a bit sceptic about it.
But know when I see that it is a wallarmbrust I'm okay with it.

Micke Dahlström,
Stockholm Lockbow Society,
Sweden

[Matchlock]

Hi there,

I overlooked to point out that the nut on these heavy wall crossbows is not of bone as usual but of cast bronze or brass.

And Micke: thanks for agreeing! :)

Best,
Michael

[Swordfish]

Hallo,

the nut of this wall-crossbow is neither of bone nor of brass, but of hardwood as described in the catalgue.

Regards
Susi

[fernando]

A Portuguese cavalry crossbow, used by King Dom Sebastião (1557-1578) personal mounted guard. The brass initial S can be seen on the stock.

.

[fernando]

A couple of crossbow bolts ( XV and XVI century) of many found outside the walls of São Jorge castle, in Lisbon.

.

[Matchlock]

A Portuguese cavalry crossbow, used by King Dom Sebastião (1557-1578) personal mounted guard. The brass initial S can be seen on the stock.

.


Thank you so much, 'Nando,

This sort of early Renaissance crossbows first of all appeared in Northern Italy, with one of the earliest being made for Maximilian I in about 1508, and the style was soon adopted in Spain in the 1530's and later in Portugal.

The one you illustrated can be safely attributed to ca. 1570. There are simillar but earlier samples preserved in the Real Armería Madrid, coming from Charles V's armory. The oldest features of these are the long 'Gothic' trigger which of course by then was just a trigger guard.


Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

A couple of crossbow bolts ( XV and XVI century) of many found outside the walls of São Jorge castle, in Lisbon.

.


It's interesting to see how similar these bolt tips were made all over the Western world, from the Roman to the Renaissance period, over 2,000 years.

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

Preserved at Schloß Runkelstein near Bozen, South Tyrol.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Enjoy.

m

[Matchlock]

More.

m

[Matchlock]

More.

m

[Matchlock]

More.

[Matchlock]

The rest.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

I owe these images to my friend and our member Alexander (Spiridonov) - thank you you much, Alexander! ;)

Please note the unique cross section photos of the various glued layers on the inside of a Gothic composite bow and the special stamped pattern on the bow surface!

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

An unusually fine Tyrolean example offered by Peter Finer in 2009.

The zooms enable perfect studies of the variety of Gothic patterns that the bow covering is stamped with!

m

[Matchlock]

The rest.

[fernando]

Magnificent !!!

[Matchlock]

Thank you, 'Nando!

The zooms were sent to me by Peter just to inform me. :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

Some period artwork, a South German woodcut of 1513.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

A few images of early crossbows.

1 - Hunting with a XII century crossbow. The bow was already of the composite type. The stock is very short, so that the shooter had to extend his arm to aim. At the Lisbon National Archives.
2 - Crossbowman at rest. First half XVI century. At the National Museum of Antique Art.
3 - No ID.
4 - No ID.
5 - A Portuguese crossbowman. One of the famous bronzes of Benin(Dahomey). Mid XV century. 40 cms. high. The care taken by the artist in the details is notable, to the extent of clearly showing the "armatoste" (arming device) hanging from from the soldier's waist.
6 - "Caça de boi" (hunting with ox). So called because the hunter hides behind a structure covered with an ox skin, to easier approach the game. A tile panel in the São Vicente de Fora Monastery. First half XVIII century.

.

[Matchlock]

Thank you so much for contributing this period artwork, 'Nando!

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

Some interesting illustrations from an Alamanic or Swiss manuscript, ca. 1430.

Best,
Michael

[Swordfish]

A gothic crossbow with horn bow dating c. 1430-1460.
This crossbow failed to sell at an auction some years ago, because it was wrongly described as Scandinavian dating c. 1500.
A few years later I saw it in a private collection, where I took the photo.
In this collection was also another crossbow of typical central European shape with a tiller made of fruit-wood and a spanning-hook at the upper side.
Both crossbows had identical (really identical, not only similar) elements:
The strongly reflex horn-bow, the stirrup, the cord binding and the trigger lever. Therefore both crossbows must have been made by the same maker or in the same wokshop. This workshop was in South-Tyrol. This is proofed by an exhibition label on the bow inscibed by hand with No. XII and with a latin text stating that this cossbow was was once in the collection of Castle Rodeneck (South-Tyrol),and dated 11.April 1891.
The crossbow on the photo is a somewhat simlpler version than the usually known ones. The tiller is made of more durable oak, the side plates are iron sheets instead of less durable horn plates. The only decoration are the horn plates on the upper side. The spanning- hook is on the bottom side, probably for a cord-puller, as can be seen on Italian paintings of the period.
While the horn inlaid crossbows with fruit-wood tillers can be described as all purpose crossbows suitable for sporting, hunting and war, the crossbow on the photo is surely only for one purpose. It is a war-crossbow.

[Matchlock]

I have known this crossbow since it first appeared on the market and I too know who it is with. There are some doubts about it, but anyway the iron side plates are of a surface that keeps me from thinking it might be all original. After all, a label from 1891, the heyday of the Victorian period (German Historismus) when many of these arms were widely reproduced, is certainly no proof of Gothic authenticity, at best of Neo-Gothic made ...

So I had my reasons for not posting it here.

Best,
Michael

[Swordfish]

There can be no doubt that this is a gothic crossbow. As
mentioned before all elements of this crossbow, except of
the stock, are identical to a known typical central european
crossbow. The iron side plates are nearly identical to the side
plates on the Wall-crossbow you posted in thread #40.
The crossbow was in the collection of an experienced collector
who still owns the other one with the bone inlaid fruit-wood stock.

[Matchlock]

The iron side plates are nearly identical to the side
plates on the Wall-crossbow you posted in thread #40.


But their surface does not commensurate with the alleged period of the other components! And the collector has been in close contact with a number of German and Austrian forgers over the decades, they have been interchanging various arms for display in their repective collections. I noticed the same crossbow in another far-off collection about one year after is was for sale with HH.
m

[Micke D]

I must agree with Michael on this one, I don’t like it.
And I didn’t like it when I first saw it at Hermann-Historica either. Then it turned up in Holger Richters, Die Hornbogenarmbrust: Geschichte und Technik (Gebundene Ausgabe - Oktober 2006), where it still was said that it was a Scandinavian crossbow. I tried to convince Richter that the Scandinavian Saami crossbows had tillers somewhat similar to this but not until the 18th c, and there was certainly no people that could make horn bows left at that time, but he still thought that it was a Scandinavian crossbow.

“Both crossbows had identical (really identical, not only similar) elements:
The strongly reflex horn-bow, the stirrup, the cord binding and the trigger lever. Therefore both crossbows must have been made by the same maker or in the same workshop.”

Is it possible that you could show us the other crossbow that you say is identical to this one?
Do you know the dimensions of this crossbow?
Is it a wall-crossbow or a big handheld crossbow?

Here I must say that I have never seen a horn bow of this size with this much reflex, of course I know of the early crossbows like W1109 in Köln, but they are of another time and type.
Can you show me a similar reflexed bow?

The yellow-greenish cord binding looks suspect to me and most probably not original. The stirrup should be lashed to the bow with leather and not the cord binding that holds the bow. The stirrup doesn’t look like anything I have seen before, it’s very thin and the outside ridge looks like it’s pressed from the inside, it looks very suspect.

This is the first old (?) crossbow that I have seen with a tiller of oak.

“There can be no doubt that this is a gothic crossbow. As mentioned before all elements of this crossbow, except of the stock, are identical to a known typical central european crossbow. The iron side plates are nearly identical to the side plates on the Wall-crossbow you posted in thread #40.”

I’m sorry but I can’t see anything on this one that I would say is typical of a central European medieval crossbow. If it had had a bow shaped more like the one in thread #40, and of similar size, I would have it easier to accept it.

Mikael Dahlström,
Stockholm Lockbow Society,
Sweden

[Matchlock]

Excellent notations, Mikael, and exactly on the point! :)

All crossbow tillers I have seen were of either fruitwood or lime wood, except this one.

Best,
Michael

[Micke D]

Hi Michael!

Are you sure that it was lime wood? Any photo's?

I have seen many paintings with light coloured wellowish tillers that looks like they probably are too light to be fruitwood, but I havn't seen anything like it that has survived in any museum.

Mikael Dahlström,
Stockholm Lockbow Society,
Sweden

[Matchlock]

Hi Mikael,

I cannot seem to find the photos of the crossbow with that kind of wavy grain on the tiller that made me think of maple or limewood. So just forget about my idea. I also talked to my friend whose special collection I posted,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7457&highlight=gothic+crossbows

and he testified that all Gothic crossbow tillers he had ever seen were of fruitwood, mostly pear and cherry, including the three fine pieces he owns.

The white tillers you mentioned might have remained 'in the white', unvarnished, as many sources of period artwork (paintings) indicate, as well as the stocks of many early arquebuses. I'm also afraid none of those seems have survived, maybe partly due to later cleaning or restoring measures - or simply to hundreds of years of exposition to daylight.

It's so good to have a member with your range of experience here on the forum - so WELCOME! ;)

Best,
Michael

[Micke D]

Hi Michael!

Thank you for the nice words and the welcome :o , but I think I still have a lot more learning to do about my special interest, “Late Gothic horn bow Crossbows and Accouterments”!

I would like to have a collection like your friend has!!! :D
Do you think he is willing to testament it to me? ;)

I guess that maple is a better choice than lime, I think that lime wood is probably a bit too soft for a crossbow tiller.

I probably know which crossbow you meant. The crossbow in the Osthofentor Museum in Soest has a tiller that has the striped look of maple, the same wood as used for violins and other instruments of that type. The tiller wood on this crossbow is stained to have a pear/cherry color and not the natural light color of maple, but I think that almost all crossbow tillers were stained during medieval times, (and maybe later also). This crossbow has some odd inlays and a unique type of dotted pattern on the bow, but I think it is authentic.

Micke Dahlström,
Stockholm Lockbow Society,
Sweden

[Matchlock]

Hi Micke,

You are completely right about the Soest crossbow, this was the one I meant.

Nevertheless, we know many paintings with white, unvarnished crossbow tillers and arquebuses. I am conviced that in times of war, wood on weapons was only meant to survive for few days or weeks, at best. Then the stocks were broken at best and replaced. Even in Thirty Yeras War paintings, we notice white stocks on both matchlock and wheellock guns. I guess, due to their quick consumption they were just not worth staining.
In my collection, a ca. 1645 Austrian matchlock musket is preserved with white (now heavily patinated) beechwood stock. It came from the Styrian castle of Schloss Frondsberg, from where about 15 similar muskets were sold via Tom Del Mar a couple of years ago, all in the same untouched condition with rust patinated iron parts and unstained stocks, with all the traces of original carving still visible.
A few images attached.

What's even more, I own the earliest known completelety preserved gun in the world, High Gothic, ca. 1400, the lock mechnism and hook being working time alterations of ca. 1430. Its crude oak stock much resembles a compemporary crossbow tiller (!), it is of heavily patinated brownish gray surface and shows no traces of staining whatsoever.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7076&highlight=oldest+handgun


Remember: crosssbow bolts (quarrels) were an absolute mass production and certainly not stained originally - and look at their dark colored oak or ash surfaces now! :cool: :eek:


As to limewood, it is not only soft and easy to carve but at the same time very tough. As I mentioned various times, most early 16th c. arquebus stocks were made of limewood, as their very special scent of incense denotes.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Michael!

I would like to have a collection like your friend has!!! :D
Do you think he is willing to testament it to me? ;)


Micke Dahlström,
Stockholm Lockbow Society,
Sweden


Hi Micke,

Most of his collection used to be in mine before we got to know each other and I decided on concentrating on earliest firearms and accouterments, which turned out to totally absorb my time, knowledge and money ...

I'll make contacts between the two of you though.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Oh, i wish i could find a genuine hilt for my katzbalger :shrug:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14555

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

As I said: take off the outcurved sides of the wood with a raw rasp to smoothen them, then touch them with glue and apply a rough cord binding. You may then stain the hemp binding brown with wood stain. All that hasn't to be done though to make your Katzbalger look good and authentic. It already does, at least to me. :cool:
Did you soak the iron parts in olive oil? Smoothen them just lightly with 600 grain paper and oil them!!! You will be overwhelmed!!!!

BTW, are you sure your post was placed in the right thread, my friend? :eek:

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

BTW, are you sure your post was placed in the right thread, my friend? :eek:

You are obviously right, Michl :o .
I have already moved your and my post to the correct thread ;) :cool:

.

[Matchlock]

Hi Micke,

This is the by far earliest known dated but composite cranequin: 1474 and a Gothic trefoil decoration (three punch marks) on the ratched bar, which is doubtlessly the earliest part of the cranequin. The date is struck in correct Late Gothic cyphers, and the lichen-like patina seems absolutely correct to me.
The short length of the bar (without the belt hook) of only about 34 cm is also a Late Gothic phenomenon, and so is the shape of the claws. The gear box seems to be a primitive 17th c. addition when this cranequin was possibly re-used onsome farm or so. The long and straight iron handle also shows Gothic style elements and might well have originally belonged.

It was sold for about 600 euro at a Danish auction house in November 2010, maybe not exactly the real deal for an advanced collector because of the crude alteration.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A fine piece of period artwork, a psalter illumination of ca. 1300-10, Lake Constance area, Southern Germany, showing scenes from the life of St. Katharina of Alexandria.

Please note the reinforcements of the bow.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Overall length of the ratched bar 43 cm.
In poor, overcleaned and pitted condition throughout: the original lower cord loop for attaching to the crossbow inaptly replaced by an iron clamp, several rivets obviously replaced, as well as the original wooden crank arm handle.
The bar struck with a maker's mark, now indistinct as mostly polished off.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Author's photos, 1994.

This Late Gothic crossbow, Vienna inv.no. A 108, ca. 1460-70, with painted composite horn bow is of unusual dimensions, denoting that its owner, knight Andreas Baumkircher, who was executed in 1471, was a man of enormous physique. His coat-of-arms, a church and a house, is painted on the underside of the bow against a read ground, amidst yellow rays against a green ground.

The second Late Gothic crossbow of about the same date is also preserved in Vienna, inv.no. A 464; the long trigger indicates that the rear of the tiller (now heavily wormed) was originally ca. 10-15 cm longer.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

One more photo of the Baumkircher crossbow, and the other Vienna crossbow. Please note that the latter is not yet equipped with the 'usual' lateral lugs for the cranequin loop but still features the earlier hook on top of the tiller for attacchin the spanning belt that was the predecessor of the cranequin. The earlest cranequins seem to turn up around the mid-15th c.

m


.

[Matchlock]

A late-15th c. Gothic crossbow with horn composite bow, sold cheaply at a Stockholm auction in 1996.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A votive painting by the German mercenary Ludwig Klingkhamer, who was shot by a falconet ball lelow the North Italian fortress of Rovereto during the Venetian War in 1487. He survived and consequently donated this painting the blatancy and drastic decidedness of which still strikes us in every single detail after more than 500 years.

Please note the smashed crossbow parts at the left of the borse's fore legs, the bolts in the horse's body, as well as the shape of the Gothic numerals 1487.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Gosh :eek:

[Matchlock]

A very nice South German Early Renaissance cranequin, ca. 1540, preserved in completely original condition, wrought iron with brass applications. The maker's mark, a crescent and two pellets, is well known but cannot be attributed to an identified person. Brass applications in iron works - and weapons - are known to have been in use from ca. 1470-1550, and then again around 1700.

What is highly unusual with this cranequin is the the fact that the cord loop for attaching the spanning device to the lugs on the crossbow tiller is internally reinforced here with strands of iron wire. This remarkable feature becomes visible only thru a small damage of the loop.

German private collection.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

The cranequin mounted is about contemporary; the one displayed on the right is notably shorter and can be dated to ca. 1500, the belt hook is missing. The sporting crossbow seems to be German, ca. 1600-1650.

Please note the b/w illustration of a cross section of a Late Gothic composite horn bow. I posted such remarkable coss sections of horn bows preserved in the Swiss collections of Lucerne and Zürich here before.

Best,
Michael

[Micke D]

And here is the sister to the cranequin that Michael posted.
It's located in Skokloster in Sweden.
It's from the same maker but it is a bit more stripped, not much of housing left.

[Matchlock]

I was told that this one was preserved in The Royal Armouries Leeds but it was not on display when I was there, nor was is exhibited in The Tower of London.

Does anybody have a clue - Micke?

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

I just found out it actually is in Leeds. Here is more of it.

In our opinion, this item should be definitely dated about a quarter of a century earlier than the RA believe it is.

m

[Micke D]

I think that this one could be from 1480-1490 or something like that, based on the strange and probably early four-axle lock mechanism.

I have written a little article explaining my thoughts about how this one is related to two other 15th c crossbows.

This one wasn't displayed when I was at Leeds either, but the floor with the hunting stuff was closed for rebuilding/rearranging or something like that.

I don't know if it has been displayed in modern times at all? I guess there would be more photos of it if it has been shown.

[Matchlock]

Where was that article of yours published? Could you share it with us?

m

[Matchlock]

I think that this one could be from 1480-1490 or something like that, based on the strange and probably early four-axle lock mechanism.

I have written a little article explaining my thoughts about how this one is related to two other 15th c crossbows.

This one wasn't displayed when I was at Leeds either, but the floor with the hunting stuff was closed for rebuilding/rearranging or something like that.

I don't know if it has been displayed in modern times at all? I guess there would be more photos of it if it has been shown.



I found a different view.

m

[Matchlock]

This item is labeled as 16th century but I think it should rather be assigned to the 17th c. and was designed for hunting purposes.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Please note the excellent and complete overall condition, the way that the numeral 7 is struck within Gothic trefoil ornament, the punched decoration which is stylistically characteristic of the period around 1540, the brass- or gold-inlaid maker's mark, an arrow and two pellets, and the leather covered cord loop.
It was hammered down at 6,500 Swiss Francs at Fischer, Lucerne, in September 2010.

This Nuremberg workshop arrow mark is also found on the barrels of matchlock Landsknecht arquebuses preserved in the Bayerisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt, together with the same date 1537; this group of arquebuses was restocked in 1619 (two images attached).

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

From top to bottom:

- Spain or Portugal, Romanic, 12th. c.

- Line drawing of an early Gothic German crossbow, 13th c., by Egon Harmuth

- Another, of a Late Gothic German crossbow, 15th c., and of a Renaissance type of 1the 16th c., by the same author

- ca. 1230, from the Maciejowski (or Morgan) Bible, 4 scans

- ca. 1326/7, from the famous de Milemete or Christ Church ms, Oxford

- ca. 1350-55, illustrations of a crossbow and a quiver, Haguenau, France

- ca. 1230, a very rare illustration of a trap war crossbow, by Villard de Honnecourt, ms. fr. 19093, Bibliothèque Nationale Paris

For more on trap crossbows please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15016



More to come.

m

[Matchlock]

On the cycle of illustrations goes ...

- a very early South Italian illustration of 1196, from the cod. 120, Burgerbibliothek Berne/Switzerland (two scans)

- ca. 1225 (left) and ca. 1300 (right)

- a stone relief from the 12th century

- crossbows from various miniatures in the Luttrell Psalter, ca. 1330, British Library (5 scans)

- English bows vs. crossbows, ca. 1255, from the Historia Anglorum, by Matthew Paris.


To be continued.

[Matchlock]

- A humble self portrait of Matthew Paris in his Historia Anglorum, ca. 1255 (see three last scans in my previous post)http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Crossbows and their early accouterments, spanning belt and quiver, from the Flanders (Bruges?) manuscript The Romance of Alexander, ca. 1340 (5 scans)

- Crossbows, 1308-13 (perhaps can some member please translate the Cyrillic script? :) )

- 14th c. Belgian crossbows from one of the many versions of the tale on Lancelot du Lac, Province of Hainaut

- ca. 1400

- 14th century

- spanning a High Gothic (ca. 1340) so-called one-foot crossbow both kneeling and standing up, the illustration on the right from the Luttrell ms., cf. my post above


Best,
Michael

[fernando]

From top to bottom:
- Spain or Portugal, Romanic, 12th. c.

As per my post #6 :o .

[Matchlock]

Oh 'Nando,

Now I remember where I stole it from! :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

m

[Matchlock]

This crossbow, ca. 1470, was sold at Fischer, Lucerne, 25 November 1964, and then again in 2011 from the Klingbeil collection.

The spanning belt is a reconstruction.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

The spanning belt replica; in order to get an actually working construction, the leather belt would have to be much more robust than this, built of various intertwined layers.

m

[Matchlock]

A quiver for crossbow bolts and another for arrows, also from the Klingbeil collection; both were offered as 19th c. reproductions. Both items wore an inventory label from the Cuturhistorische Ausstellung Steyr, Austria, which is known to have taken place in 1884. 332 Objects said to have come from the Steyr museum were presented there.

m

[Matchlock]

Three more close-ups.

m

[Matchlock]

A good South German (Nuremberg?) cranequin for a crossbow, ca. 1540, with rare brass inserts, and retaining its original bound and leather-covered cord loop, the belt hook missing.
From the Klingbeil collection.

Both the maker's mark, a crescent and two stars, and the style of manufacture denote that this came from the very same workshop as the cranequins in posts 85 and 87.

m

[Matchlock]

A Late Gothic Crossbow, the tiller completely veneered in white staghorn, early 16th century, and some quarrels in the Tojhusmuseet Copenhagen.

m

[David Jaumann]

Hi to everyone,

I´m new in this forum and I have already read several interesting topics during the last few months.
I do a late fiftenth century reenactment and I´m very much interested in crossbows. In order to reunite these two hobbies, I´d like to rebuilt a late gothic crossbow with a horn and sinew prod that must be spanned with a cranequin. I already did quite many researches for early cranequins (from about 1475) but I didn´t find many examples. Do you have good pictures of early gothic cranequins and maybe also mesurements? That would be really nice!

thank you in advance,

David

[Matchlock]

Hi David,

Welcome here!

As to rebuilding a composite hornbow crossbow and a matching cranequin, believe me: it is virtually impossible!

In post #54, I posted a cross-section of a composite hornbow and detailed description. Please study carefully. Below I attach photos of a similar cross-sectioned hornbow fragment that I took in the reserve collection of the Historisches Museum Luzern in 1995.

I have heard of several people who, like you, tried to copy such an item and all failed in the end.
That's exactly why there is not one single replica of such a hornbow on the market!
As to the cranequin: I think the best idea would be to view a piece you would like to have in an upcoming auction, photograph it there and take all the measurements.

Again though: rebuilding it would prove to be a tremendous piece of toil. I suggest purchasing an original piece that works alright and use that. This will be both more efficient and cheaper as well.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Please read also here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7457&highlight=gothic+crossbows

m

[David Jaumann]

Thank you for the much detailed pictures of horn and sinew prods Michael!

Do you know if something like alum was mixed into the glue for making it more water proof?
As for the cranequin, I do think that such early original cranequins cost really much :( Did the style for cranequins like the one I attached on my first post already exist in 1475? I think this picture shows a cranequin from about 1500.

I think that I still will try making a crossbow even if it does not work for the first time. I´m really much interested in doing that and I know someone who already has made several composite crossbows from about 1300.

Do you know good books with many detailed examples of late gothic crossbows with horn and sinew prods? I already have read "Die Hornbogenarmbrust"

thank you and greetings,

David

[Matchlock]

Hi David,

We do not know much about the materials but the only glue used it those periods was bone glue from animal bones. It was not at all 'water proof' but I have heard of the alum addition as well ...

I think that the cranequin you posted should be assigned to the early 16th c. Such pieces in good condition are between 2,500 and 3,000 euro, or you could purchase an imperfect one for less than 1,500 € and complete it yourself. I cannot imagine building a perfect one for less money. Did you ever have a look inside a gear box and take out the gear wheel of such a cranequin?

I'd like to get into contact with the guy you mentioned who built 13th c. composite bows and see photos of his productions!

The only other good book is
Egon Harmuth, Die Armbrust, Graz, 1975, and a later revised edition.

Do not expect to find a lot of images of original items in them though; that's why I started this thread! All original crossbows the photos of which I got hold of are posted here as long as there are a few close-ups.


Best,
Michael

[David Jaumann]

Hi Michael,

thanks for the book commendation! I will have a look at it!

You can google "historia vivens 1300" and you will find the homepage of the living history group where Andreas Bichler is a member. At "Realien", there are several of his crossbows (later models) and on "Bibliotek" you can read about penetration tests with different types of quarrels on a gambeson and mail shirt. It´s very interesting!

I know a good blacksmith who would forge a cranequin for me. I think that the price will be affordable, because he knows that I´m still passing my last year at grammar school. If the price is to high, I hope that I can do something for him like sewing etc...
He has a detailed plan of a 1530 cranequin. I think that system inside should be rather the same as in 1475 (the cog wheel of the older models might be smaller). So I´m searching for good patterns I could give him.

Might the two cranequins exposed in the "Churburger Rüstkammer" be better patterns for 1475 (with less decorations than the originals of cause)? There is a picture of these cranequins in "Die Hornbogenarmbrust" on page 114. How were the two sides of the gear box of late medieval cranequins matched together? With screws?

Thank you very much and best regards,

David

[Matchlock]

Hi David,


I know that there are some copies of hornbow crossbows; when I said I thought it could not be done I meant, properly done - just exacty the way it was done 500 years ago.

Yes, the two Churburg cranequins (images attached from the Churburg catalog) rank among the finest in existence, together with the Odescalchi cranequin, of course. Their gear boxes are all decorated with Gothic tracery, of brass I think.

As you can see on the earliest known dated cranequin, 1504, once in my collection and now it that of a friend, gear boxes are fixed by iron tacks until at least the 1530's, sometimes up to the mid-16th century. In some cases they are riveted, though.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7457&highlight=gothic+crossbows


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

More details of a fine Nuremberg cranequin by the 'Master of the crossed arrows', dated 1532, the gear box riveted. Formerly in my collection, and with my friend now.

Please note the close-up of the bottom side with the seam of copper soldering clearly visible.

m

[Matchlock]

The finely wrought crank handles of two Nuremberg cranequins, both by the 'Master of the crossed arrows', dated 1532 and 1540 respectively, composed of boxwood and staghorn.

m

[Matchlock]

One of the many depictions of the martyrdom of St. Sebastian, in the Wallraff-Richartz-Museum Köln/Cologne.

Please note that the obsolete spanning belt is still in use, side by side with the 'new' spanning device, the cranequin.

m

[Matchlock]

The first Late Gothic, ca. 1500, the belt hook missing;
the second was dated '2nd half 15th century' by the staff but, in spite of its Late Gothic brass tracery on the gear box, it should be actually dated to 'ca. 1530-40'; the belt hook a modern replacement.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

One last close-up, the riveting of the (replaced) belt hook.

[Matchlock]

For close comparison with the foregoing cranequin, and to back its dating assigned by me, I attach images of a sample by the Nuremberg 'Master of the crossed arrows', dated 1540 and with almost identical punched trefoil decoration, from the collection of a friend.

m

[Matchlock]

From the Herrenberg Altarpiece, painted by Jörg Ratgeb in 1518-9, now in the Staatsgalererie Stuttgart.

Please note that this plain Landsknecht crossbow is mounted with the characteristic early-16th c. steel bow and the tiller is depicted 'in the white', in its natural state and unvarnished, which of course was the cheapest possible version.

m

[Matchlock]

I found this late-15th c. crossbow, together with a ca. 1530's cranequin, preserved in the Cleveland Museum of Art, Ohio.

See follower post.

m

[Matchlock]

A late-Gothic crossbow, ca. 1470, with composite horn bow, together with what seems to be one of the finest contemporary cranequins in existence; in the Cleveland Museum of Art, Ohio.

m

[Matchlock]

http://www.google.de/imgres?q=cranequin&hl=de&client=firefox-a&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:de:official&biw=1280&bih=878&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=Rrg2G5bMwNgntM:&imgrefurl=http://grand-sud-medieval.aceboard.fr/312954-7204-9538-0-Boite-carreaux-arbalete.htm&docid=2YHaiude_wMaVM&imgurl=http://www.photo.rmn.fr/LowRes2/TR1/0NBL2K/08-517219.jpg&w=758&h=568&ei=9KyRT-rrGIbHsga-vbClBA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=435&vpy=300&dur=2093&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=140&ty=116&sig=102057399354938760134&page=3&tbnh=157&tbnw=209&start=47&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:47,i:203

Unfortunately, no references to the respective museums are given ... :(

m

[Micke D]

That one is in Paris Michael!

[fernando]

I have the one that belonged to Wlrich of Würtemberg in one of my books but, unfortunately, no provenance is mentioned :shrug: .

[fernando]

Another one without any mention :o .
Can you date it, Michl ? :shrug:

.

[Matchlock]

That one is in Paris Michael!


The one in which post?

m

[Matchlock]

Another one without any mention :o .
Can you date it, Michl ? :shrug:

.

Not any closer than 1st half 16th c.

m

[Micke D]

The crossbow shown in post 123, with cranequin and arrow is from Paris.

[Matchlock]

Great, Micke, ;)


Thank you so much.

By Paris I guess you are referring to the Musée de l'Armée. When I was there by appointment, I sadly had to find out that the medieval department was closed.

Could you please let me know whether the attached quarrel casket is also there? (all images copied from the site quoted in post 123).
Please do post more images anyway - some folks here are definitely waiting to see you sharing your archives!!! :)

Btw, here is the fine Paris crossbow, ca. 1460-70, together with a matching late-15th c. cranequin.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A late-Gothic crossbow, ca. 1470, with composite horn bow, together with what seems to be one of the finest contemporary cranequins in existence; in the Cleveland Museum of Art, Ohio.

m

Do you think that the crossbows in posts no. 121 and 122 are identical? I realize it's highly probable but the dimensions of both the tiller(s) and the cranequin(s) seem to differ ... maybe due to the different angles the photos were taken ...

What do you think, Micke?

m

[Matchlock]

Two Late-Gothic quivers in the Vienna Arms Collection (Wiener Waffensammlung); the first of leather, of very slender shape and retaining its rare lid cover;
the second of wood covered with boar skin (the bristles now missing), the fletches painted read and green, the basic Late-Gothic colors, denoting their provenance: Schloss Ambras.
Photos from flickr.

Attached are two quarrels with painted fletchings from Schloss Ambras, and a view of the Vienna armor hall.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

The crossbow shown in post 123, with cranequin and arrow is from Paris.


Oh yes, Micke,


Shame on me! :rolleyes:

The same photo, only smaller, is contained in Reverseau's 1982 book Musée de l'Armée - Les armes et la vie, which of course is in my library but I somehow overlooked it.

Still: do you have any other photos to post?


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

As a supplement to post 132, concerning Ambras quarrels with fletches painted red and green:

a detail from Thalhoffer's fencing books, 1459, vol. I, fol. 62.

m

[Micke D]

I will try and post something this week.

[Matchlock]

We are looking forward to your contributions!!! ;)

m

[Matchlock]

Such pieces of period artwork are quite rare to detect.

The first instance dated 1461, the lower two ca. 1340, all from Swiss manuscripts.

At bottom a 1480's illustration from the Wolfegg Hausbuch, fol. 51v-52r, showing a crossbow in its quiver suspended from the saddle.

m

[Matchlock]

The only other period illustration, apart from the Wolfegg Hausbuch, I have come across depicting a crossbow stored away in its quiver, 2nd half 15th c.

m

[Matchlock]

Two more colored drawings from the Wolfegg Hausbuch, ca. 1480, of crossbows on horseback, the one on the left in the first picture stored away in its quiver.

m

[Matchlock]

It is only with some reluctance that I post this as it was obviously redrawn in 1898 after an early-16th c. original depiction which is not verified. So we do not know how exact the drawing actually is.

m

[Matchlock]

Finally two characteristic illustrations from Hans Talhoffer's Fencing Books, vol. 2, dated 1459, fol. 194 and 195.

Please note that, like in most period artwork on 'military' crossbows and guns, the tiller is depicted undyed and unvarnished - the cheapest variant.


m

[Matchlock]

Gothic crossbows and accouterments in the Landesmuseum Zürich, from the 1928 catalog by Gessler.

m

[Matchlock]

A woodcut of a crossbow man, with the cranequin mounted and ready for spanning the bow; by Urs Graf, from a book printed in 1513.

An Albanian quiver for arrows, from the 1533 chronicle on the Prince of Scanderberg.

And a miniature bordure of quiver, from a codex of ca. 1520, St. Gallen, Switzerland.


m

[Matchlock]

I will try and post something this week.


Can we still be considered, please?

m

[Swordfish]

This Nuremberg workshop arrow mark is also found on the barrels of matchlock Landsknecht arquebuses preserved in the Bayerisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt, together with the same date 1537; this group of arquebuses was restocked in 1619 (two images attached).

My question:
From where is the information that thes arquebuses were restocked in 1619?

Best

[Matchlock]

A very fine Late-Gothic crossbow, ca. 1480-1500, mounted with one of the earliest etched and gilt steel bows which either might belong originally or could be a working-time replacement of a former composite horn bow.
It was sold comparatively cheap at 15,000 Deutschmark plus 23 per cent commission, Hermann Historica, 27 November 1982.

Best,
Michael

[Swordfish]

The bow of this crossbow is surely a later replacement and of a later date as the tiller. An etched and gilded bow does not match to the undecorated long tiller of a (war-)crossbow. Also the price of Euro 9,500 incl. commission in 1982 is not as cheap as it looks today (for a composite crossbow). If you calculate an inflation rate of 2,5 percent per year this sum commensurates with an amount of Euro 20,000 today.

A completely genuine late Gothic war-crossbow with steel bow was for sale at Hermann Historica October 2009, but remained unsold for a limit of Euro 16,000.
Length: 98cm
Weight: 6 kg

See attachments
Best

[Micke D]

Hi Michael and all other crossbow friends!

I think I may finally have some time to check my files and post some, I hope at least, interesting Swedish crossbow stuff.

I’m beginning it with this late 15th century crossbow from the wooden parts of middle Sweden. It is from Skog parish in Hälsingland.
The crossbows of this type are all still of almost the same size and type as the long and slender 14th century crossbows. Its located today at Livrustkammaren in Stockholm, Sweden.

Micke Dahlström,
Stockholm LockbowSociety,
Sweden

[Micke D]

Hi again!

The second piece is this early – mid 16th century crossbow with a double axle lock, probably not a weapon made in Sweden, but an import from somewhere in Germany.

It’s a very special crossbow. It’s not a composite bow with horn, wood and sinew, but a wood and sinew only bow. I don’t know for sure, but I guess that the bow is made of yew wood.

The tiller is probably made in pear wood that is stained black to make more contrast to the long white horn/bone plates on the sides and top.

The string is not the original but the bolt clip could be genuine. The bow is not covered with the usual printed birch bark cover, except for the middle where scrap pieces of printed birch bark is used under the hemp string that binds the bow to the tiller. My guess is that stained parchment strips are glued to the bow as decoration. The parchment is only used over the sinew so the wood is fully visible at the back.

It is also located today at Livrustkammaren in Stockholm, Sweden.

Micke Dahlström,
Stockholm LockbowSociety,
Sweden

[Matchlock]

Hi Micke,


Great stuff, thank you so much!

I remembered the Livrustkammaren reserve collection!

It is especially astonishing to see the wooden bow and the crossbow that looks as if it were yet as early as ca. 1400, which of course it is not!

The bow decoration of the crossbow in post #149 much resembles that of a Romanian crossbow in the museum of Bukarest; see post #6.


Please hang on, Micke! ;)
This thread achieved a remarkable number of views which proves that our work is much appreciated out there!


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

For this unique piece, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7457&highlight=unique+crossbow+collection

!!!

[Matchlock]

I think that this one could be from 1480-1490 or something like that, based on the strange and probably early four-axle lock mechanism.

I have written a little article explaining my thoughts about how this one is related to two other 15th c crossbows.


Hi Micke,


Please forgive my stupidity, and my not asking earlier:

Would you please be so kind and post that article of yours?

It concerns a crossbow in the Royal Armouries Leeds, posts #88 and #89.


Thanks in advance,
and eagerly looking forward to some good reading,

Michael

[Swordfish]

A gothic crossbow with horn bow dating c. 1430-1460.
This crossbow failed to sell at an auction some years ago, because it was wrongly described as Scandinavian dating c. 1500.
A few years later I saw it in a private collection, where I took the photo.
In this collection was also another crossbow of typical central European shape with a tiller made of fruit-wood and a spanning-hook at the upper side.
Both crossbows had identical (really identical, not only similar) elements:
The strongly reflex horn-bow, the stirrup, the cord binding and the trigger lever. Therefore both crossbows must have been made by the same maker or in the same wokshop. This workshop was in South-Tyrol. This is proofed by an exhibition label on the bow inscibed by hand with No. XII and with a latin text stating that this cossbow was was once in the collection of Castle Rodeneck (South-Tyrol),and dated 11.April 1891.
The crossbow on the photo is a somewhat simlpler version than the usually known ones. The tiller is made of more durable oak, the side plates are iron sheets instead of less durable horn plates. The only decoration are the horn plates on the upper side. The spanning- hook is on the bottom side, probably for a cord-puller, as can be seen on Italian paintings of the period.
While the horn inlaid crossbows with fruit-wood tillers can be described as all purpose crossbows suitable for sporting, hunting and war, the crossbow on the photo is surely only for one purpose. It is a war-crossbow.


Looking through this old post, it was was criticized by two experts. This I can't let stand without contradiction. But before I'm going to disprove all arguments, the reader must have the opportunity to judge the weight of the opinions of these experts. Are these real experts, or self appointed so called 'experts' for early crossbows? Should I hereby tread on some ones toes, I apologize preventive for it, but there's no real discussion without any opposite opinion!

Quote Micke D:

"I have seen this one before, and must say that I was a bit sceptic about it. But now when I see that it is a Wallarmbrust I'm okay with it."

The crossbow he was 'skeptic' about was a medieval wall crossbow sold at Galerie Fischer in 2010. This crossbow is surely the most rare and important Gothic crossbow that was for sale during the last 20-30 years. It was preserved in untouched condition, the composite bow painted with original Gothic foliage. What does he believed what it is, before Matchlock told him that it is a wall-crossbow? A fake? A big toy? Thus much to this expert.

To Matchlock:

He is surely an expert for early firearms, based on a huge collection of such items. But is he therefore necessarily also an expert for early halberds , daggers, swords, crossbows, armour? As far as I know, he has not a single such item (in not excavated condition) in his collection. A huge collection of pictures, downloaded from the web, is not enough to be an expert for these arms.

But now to their 'arguments'

Quote Matchlock:

"I have known this crossbow since it first appeared on the market and I too know who it is with. There are some doubts about it, but anyway the iron side plates are of a surface that keeps me from thinking it might be all original. After all, a label from 1891, the heyday of the Victorian period (German Historismus) when many of these arms were widely reproduced, is certainly no proof of Gothic authenticity, at best of Neo-Gothic made ..."


and later:
Originally Posted by Swordfish
The iron side plates are nearly identical to the side
plates on the Wall-crossbow you posted in thread #40.


"But their surface does not commensurate with the alleged period of the other components!"

Answer:

That the surface of the side plates of the wall-crossbow and the crossbow in question differ from each other is obvious. And why? The side plates of the wall-crossbow retained their original rust patina surface, the rust of the side plates of the crossbow in question was cleaned off, therefore they must lock different(see pictures). Also the surface on the side plates, made of thin sheet metal, looks different as the surface on the solid trigger-lever on both crossbows.

And further Matchlock:

"And the collector has been in close contact with a number of German and Austrian forgers over the decades, they have been interchanging various arms for display in their repective collections. I noticed the same crossbow in another far-off collection about one year after it was for sale with HH."

Answer:

What should this crossbow be now? A crossbow of the 19th century Historismus period or a 20th or 21th century fake? Or a genuine Russian crossbow, as you believed before? There have been many Historismus crossbows on the market in the last 10-15 years. They are all similar to early crossbows, but can be easily identified at first sight as of the Historismus period. None of these, I repeat: None of these ever had an elaborate composite bow. If anyone knows one, please post a picture!

And why had none a composite bow? The answer is given by both experts:

Quote Micke D:

" I tried to convince Richter that the Scandinavian Saami crossbows had tillers somewhat similar to this but not until the 18th c, and there was certainly no people that could make horn bows left at that time, but he still thought that it was a Scandinavian crossbow."

And Matchlock:

"Hi David,
Welcome here!
As to rebuilding a composite hornbow crossbow and a matching cranequin, believe me: it is virtually impossible!.......
......I have heard of several people who, like you, tried to copy such an item and all failed in the end.
That's exactly why there is not one single replica of such a hornbow on the market!"

Comment:

If the knowledge of making elaborate composite crossbows was already lost in the 18th century, it was surely not rediscovered in the 19th century Historismus period. If it is impossible to make a composite bow today, where is than the ingenious faker who made this elaborate strongly reflex bow?

Quote Micke D:

"Is it possible that you could show us the other crossbow that you say is identical to this one?
Do you know the dimensions of this crossbow?
Is it a wall-crossbow or a big handheld crossbow?
Here I must say that I have never seen a horn bow of this size with this much reflex, of course I know of the early crossbows like W1109 in Köln, but they are of another time and type.
Can you show me a similar reflexed bow?"

Answer:

That the bows in Köln are of an earlier date is no argument that such a reflex bow could not have been made 50 years later. I know three exactly identical bows. One is on a crossbow of exactly the same type as the one in question, it is a twin to this, only the decoration of the bone plates differ. It is in the collection of an experienced German collector of medieval arms and armour (except firearms), who is an acknowledged expert on this field, based on a huge own collection of such items, all in not excavated condition. The second is on a crossbow of typical Central European shape with a tiller of fruitwood of exactly the same length, with a spanning-hook at the upper side. The trigger-lever, the stirrup and the cord binding of the bow are exactly identical.(See the attached scans) All three crossbows must have been manufactured in the same workshop and this was not the workshop of a faker! Fakers always try to copy existing examples, they rarely invent new hitherto unknown types, which are hard to sell.

Quote Micke D:

"The yellow-greenish cord binding looks suspect to me and most probably not original. The stirrup should be lashed to the bow with leather and not the cord binding that holds the bow. The stirrup doesn’t look like anything I have seen before, it’s very thin and the outside ridge looks like it’s pressed from the inside, it looks very suspect."

Answer:

The cord binding is waxed with beeswax, old beeswax has exactly this color if it is not too dirty. You are right that the majority of surviving medieval crossbows have the stirrup fixed with leather stripes, but a minority has not, this is no proof that all stirrups must have been fixed with leather. Also many leather straps are later replacements. Attached some pictures with stirrups bound in with the same cord as the bow, all from this thread, all not genuine? The stirrup is unusual indeed, it is not forged as a solid piece, but as a profile. The trigger-lever of crossbows is usually also made of a solid piece of iron, but some examples do exist, where the trigger-lever is also forged as a profile (see attached pictures). Why? because a profile has nearly the same stability as a solid piece of iron, but is lighter.

Quote Micke D:

"This is the first old (?) crossbow that I have seen with a tiller of oak."

Answer:

This is right, but this is also a type of crossbow which was hitherto unknown. I know no reason why the tiller should not be of oak, do you know one? But I know a reason why it makes sense to make it of oak: Oak has a higher strength than fruitwood, therefore a tiller made of oak can be made more slender than a tiller of fruitwood, without losing stability. And the crossbow in question has a very slender tiller. Why? This is a purely war-crossbow, which must have been carried by foot all the day, therefore it should never be too heavy. That's also the reason that the stirrup was forged as a light profile. The weight of the crossbow in question is only 2.9 kg.


Quote Micke D:

" I’m sorry but I can’t see anything on this one that I would say is typical of a central European medieval crossbow. If it had had a bow shaped more like the one in thread #40, and of similar size, I would have it easier to accept it."

Answer:

I have never claimed that this is a typical Central European crossbow. I have only claimed that the bow, the cord binding, the stirrup and the trigger-lever are identical to an other known typical European crossbow (see scans). The tiller is of a different shape, but the iron side-plates are very similar to the side-plates of the wall-crossbow in#40. (see pictures)

Quote Matchlock:

"Excellent notations, Mikael, and exactly on the point!
All crossbow tillers I have seen were of either fruitwood or lime wood, except this one."

And later Matchlock:
Hi Mikael,

"I cannot seem to find the photos of the crossbow with that kind of wavy grain on the tiller that made me think of maple or limewood. So just forget about my idea."

And Micke D:

" I probably know which crossbow you meant. The crossbow in the Osthofentor Museum in Soest has a tiller that has the striped look of maple, the same wood as used for violins and other instruments of that type."

Answer:

I have never seen before..... Is this an argument with the academic approach you always require?

And the crossbow in Soest, made of maple?, is it therefore a fake? If you know a tiller made of lime wood, please post a picture! I know no tiller of lime wood, which is surely too soft for making durable tillers for crossbows, but I have seen a tiller made of European beech: the Baumkircher wall-crossbow in the KHM Vienna. Is this therefore a fake? But to determine the wood only on collected pictures from the web is a tricky business.


Attached more detailed pictures of the crossbow in question. Please note the close up details where the left and right hand grips the tiller. This wear and dark coloration is from hundreds of handlings of the tiller with a hard grip with a hand wet from sweat. In the cracks in the birch bark of the bow the layers of horn are visible.

Best

[Swordfish]

Crossbows with the stirrup bound in with cord. All pictures from this thread.

[Swordfish]

Iron side plates, trigger-lever forged as a profile, composite bow with similar cracks.

[Swordfish]

Typical Central European crossbow, all details, except the tiller are identical to the crossbow in question.

[fernando]

Hi Swordfish,

... This I can't let stand without contradiction. But before I'm going to disprove all arguments, the reader must have the opportunity to judge the weight of the opinions of these experts. Are these real experts, or self appointed so called 'experts' for early crossbows? ...

Should you in time consider that sometimes your style is not the ideal one, we would be happy to see you adopting a more diplomatic approach to other members posts.
Just don't leave room to anyone (correctly or incorrectly) realize that you have a second intention in contradicting their impressions.
The type of discussion we favour here is that of exchanging perspectives, not that of exchanging disputes ... specially those sounding personal.
Don't take it wrong; it may be our self appointed non expert feeling that things will derail if we don't use prevention brakes.

[Swordfish]

Dear Fernando,

It is not my intention to exchange personal disputes here, but if I am criticised hard to depict fakes here, it must be allowed to give a hard answer.
I don't believe that this forum should be a Theology-tutorial, where no controversial discussion is allowed. A discussion without opposed oppinions is no real discussion, but I know when I have to stop. There is no need for any prevention brakes, such as closing a thread.

[Micke D]

I have not had the time to read your answer through yet, but I will read it and explain what I meant with me earlier comments.
I hope that you don't take my comments personaly as it is the crossbows i'm doubting and not you as a person.
I am in no way an expert, I'm just an amateur, but as this is one of my favorite subjects I have read many books and seen a lot of crossbows, so I believe that I know something about how they should look.

Mikael Dahlström,
Stockholm Lockbow Society,
Sweden

[Swordfish]

I have not had the time to read your answer through yet, but I will read it and explain what I meant with me earlier comments.
I hope that you don't take my comments personaly as it is the crossbows i'm doubting and not you as a person.
I am in no way an expert, I'm just an amateur, but as this is one of my favorite subjects I have read many books and seen a lot of crossbows, so I believe that I know something about how they should look.

Mikael Dahlström,
Stockholm Lockbow Society,
Sweden

Hi Micke,

If I have left the impression to criticise you personally, I apologize for that. Every contribution that is well foundet is wellcome, irrespective thereof if it comes from an expert or an amateur. We are all amateurs. In no case it was my intention to bar you from furher contributions.

Best

[fernando]

... There is no need for any prevention brakes, such as closing a thread...
Oh no, the brakes weren't meant for that.

[Andrew]

Dear Fernando,

It is not my intention to exchange personal disputes here, but if I am criticised hard to depict fakes here, it must be allowed to give a hard answer.

Good. The best way to avoid personal disputes here is to maintain a diplomatic and polite demeanor, as suggested by your moderator.

I don't believe that this forum should be a Theology-tutorial, where no controversial discussion is allowed.

What you believe this forum "should be" is irrelevant--you are a guest.

A discussion without opposed oppinions is no real discussion, but I know when I have to stop. There is no need for any prevention brakes, such as closing a thread.

Excellent. Thank you, in advance, for your continued consideration and cooperation.

[cornelistromp]

to classify a weapon as doubtful or falsification , is permitted but this must be done deliberately.
not because of a gut feeling or because such person has never seen it before. Oakeshott quote: It Means nothing That You never seen it before unless you have seen them all, those 100.000's.
if such a statement is not brought argued, it evokes the natural incomprehension and irritation. action is minus reaction! maybe we can restrict ourselves to the facts.

the crossbow under discussion post#153;
a reflex and recurved composite bow is probably the most efficient form. This bow is similar in shape to the 15th century ottoman short composite flight bow. This has the greatest cast ever known and is suitable for heavy and light arrows but also brings more energy to lighter arrows. see research Mr. Adam Karpowicz's

http://www.atarn.org/islamic/Performance/Performance_of_Turkish_bows.htm


Crossbow post 153 and 156

Making Such a bow requires high skill and patience. Because of the long time required for the organic materials to dry it takes 1 to 3 years to make a composite bow. So I think we can definitively exclude a modern forgery.

although I like the crossbow of post # 156 better, I think that Both of them are original mid 15th C, South??? or Central Europe???, the parts are almost certainly.
it can be, but this is only an assumption that in the very early life of the crossbow post #153 the stock has been renewed.this is based on the rather square shape of the stock.

that other than the common materials have been used I do not see as an alarm signal, as long as it was available and it works in practice, it is simply just possible.

best,

[David Jaumann]

@Matchlock: Tank you for the pictures of the cranequins from Churburg!

Strong reflex bows are indeed the fastest ones! But I´m very much impressed that bows with thick cross sections, like the ones from the late 15th century shown in the last few posts can endure such a strong reflex. The material of bows with high cross sections is really much stressed. (That´s also the reason why english warbows with thick cross sections usually were made of yew wood.)

I have found one more wooden stock probably made of oak wood on the internet today. It was probably made in the 15th century and it is exposed in Hambourg. The trigger mechanism is very simple because the string is released with a "Zapfenschloss".

Here is thethe link:
http://folini.tikon.ch/reenactment/scandinavian-finds/Childrens%20Crossbow%20-%20Stadtmuseum%20Hamburg.jpeg


best wishes,

David

[fernando]

Hi David,
Links are not so good for the thread history and forum archives preservation.
Direct upload is what should preferably be done.
By the way, this crossbow stock you post, exhibited in Hamburg State Museum, is labeled as a Children's example ;)

.

[David Jaumann]

Thank you for posting the picture! I tried at first posting it directely, but it didn´t work because the picture was to big. How can I scale down the sice of the pictures?

Yes, it is labeled as a children´s example!
I don´t have the mesurements, but I belive that the bow fixed on the stock was probably to heavy for a child, because the bow must have been quite broad. What do you think?

[Matchlock]

@Matchlock: Tank you for the pictures of the cranequins from Churburg!

Strong reflex bows are indeed the fastest ones! But I´m very much impressed that bows with thick cross sections, like the ones from the late 15th century shown in the last few posts can endure such a strong reflex. The material of bows with high cross sections is really much stressed. (That´s also the reason why english warbows with thick cross sections usually were made of yew wood.)

I have found one more wooden stock probably made of oak wood on the internet today. It was probably made in the 15th century and it is exposed in Hambourg. The trigger mechanism is very simple because the string is released with a "Zapfenschloss".

Here is thethe link:
http://folini.tikon.ch/reenactment/scandinavian-finds/Childrens%20Crossbow%20-%20Stadtmuseum%20Hamburg.jpeg


best wishes,

David


Hi David,



Thank you so much for bringing this remarkable sample to our knowledge!

And 'Nando, thanks a lot for adding the photo and pointing out that the item was designed for a child.
I did some photoshopping and like to add for information that it is the City Museum (Stadtmuseum) Hamburg where it is on display.


Best,
Michl

[Swordfish]

Hi David,



Thank you so much for bringing this remarkable sample to our knowledge!

And 'Nando, thanks a lot for adding the photo and pointing out that the item was designed for a child.
I did some photoshopping and like to add for information that it is the City Museum (Stadtmuseum) Hamburg where it is on display.


Best,
Michl

Unfortunately this 'remarkable' item is no medieval crossbow! This is a tiller of a whale-bow which were used in Norway until about c. 1900! See Josef Alm: European Crossbows.
Depending on the length maybe a children's whale-bow used as a toy.

Best

[David Jaumann]

Thank you for the wale-crossbow pictures, Swordfish!
It´s a really interesting one! I´m very amazed that crossbows were used for hunting until 1900.

I know a german drawing from about 1475, which shows a man sitting on a stool, who has a crossbow with a quite simular shape in his hands. It looks like he is shooting at a target.
This norwegian design thus seems to be existing since the 15th centery! And it presumably also was used in southern germany!

[fernando]

Thank you for posting the picture! I tried at first posting it directely, but it didn´t work because the picture was to big. How can I scale down the sice of the pictures?


You have to do it with help of a resizing program, David.
Have you consulted this thread ?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14688

[Swordfish]

Thank you for the wale-crossbow pictures, Swordfish!
It´s a really interesting one! I´m very amazed that crossbows were used for hunting until 1900.

I know a german drawing from about 1475, which shows a man sitting on a stool, who has a crossbow with a quite simular shape in his hands. It looks like he is shooting at a target.
This norwegian design thus seems to be existing since the 15th centery! And it presumably also was used in southern germany!

Hi David,

I remember having seen this drawing somewhere, but can't remember what type of lock it had. If the drawing is from 1475, it is unlikely that it has this type of lock (or an outmoded type was depicted). During the second half of the 15th century all central European crossbows had a nut-lock. The Zapfenschloss type of lock was in use in the 14th century or early 15th century, but rarely. Attached a picture from the Swiss National Museum with a crossbow of this type.

Best

[David Jaumann]

Thanks for your help, Fernando! I have installed a resizing program and now it hopefully works.

So here´s the picture I described yesterday. The clothing of the man is typical for about 1475. The generally shape of the crossbow is the same as the wale hunting crossbow of the late 19th century. It even has a Zapfenschloss! I don´t think that there were many of these crossbows, but they existed also during the late 15th century!

best wishes,

David

[Swordfish]

Hi David,

This is an other drawing than I remembered, but it looks clearly like a Zapfenschloss. Unfortunately I'm no expert for medieval fashion, therefore I can say nothing to the dating. But as I assumed, probably an outmoded type of crossbow was still in use at this time. The same can be observed on early target rifles of the first half of the 17th century, which still had a matchlock at a time where hunting rifles were already equipped with a wheellock since some decades.

Best

[Matchlock]

Another of the extremely rare instances in period artwork where a spanning belt and hook are illustrated; this, from a Swabian painting of ca. 1430-40, Bavarian National Museum (BNM), inv.no. MA 3395, is probably the earliest!

m

[Swordfish]

Hi David,

This is an other drawing than I remembered, but it looks clearly like a Zapfenschloss. Unfortunately I'm no expert for medieval fashion, therefore I can say nothing to the dating. But as I assumed, probably an outmoded type of crossbow was still in use at this time. The same can be observed on early target rifles of the first half of the 17th century, which still had a matchlock at a time where hunting rifles were already equipped with a wheellock since some decades.

Best

Hi David ,

surveying the drawing once again, I noticed that the tiller and the bow are very slender and not very large. The depicted scene therefore may be a target shooting at short range at a funfair. The depicted crossbow is possibly a special type used for such purposes, not very strong and cheap. The same can be observed at funfairs today, where no war-weapons were used, but special air-guns.
I still belive that in the second half of the 15th century no war-or hunting crossbows were made new with a 'Zapfenschloss', but this is only an assumption, proofs are hard to find.

Best

[Swordfish]

Another of the extremely rare instances in period artwork where a spanning belt and hook are illustrated; this, from a Swabian painting of ca. 1430-40, Bavarian National Museum (BNM), inv.no. MA 3395, is probably the earliest!

m

Quite the contrary, spanning hooks are often depicted in medieval artwork, I needed only a minute to find an earlier one. St. Stephan South-Tyrol c.1400-1410.
Pleas note the kink in the trigger lever, with an angle > 90 degrees.
This is a clear indication for early crossbows of the 14th century.

[Swordfish]

Another earlier one. Easy to find.
Romance Alexander, c.1340

Do you need still more? I have saved dozens on my Hard Disk.

[Matchlock]

I already posted this and similar others in posts # 96 and 97, so it was easy to find indeed.

Apart from that not only just me in particular would be interested in seeing your remaining material.

[Swordfish]

If you have posted the last and others, why do you then write such clearly wrong statements (to avoid the word nonsence) as Quote:
'extremely rare instances in period artwork where a spanning belt and hook are illustrated... from a Swabian painting of ca. 1430-40...is probably the earliest!'

This depiction on a painting of the 15th century is neither extremely rare, nor is it the earliest!

[David Jaumann]

Hi Swordfish,

Your assumption sounds really likely! There are as you said no pictures from the late 15th century, where such crossbows were shown as war or hunting weapons. I don´t know any picture at least.

Best,

David

[Matchlock]

Sorry this was your last chance.

Once again your choice of words has gotten uunecessarily aggressive and it is obviously my person which you have chosen as a target, instead of the topic.

You are always getting very personal, which means insulting. As you have been told here by others before you are unable to differentiate between discussion and personal aggression. This ability though is the main prerequisite for anybody trying to convey special knowledge in a field where the easy-to-grasp black and white instances are rare but where delicate shadings in between are manifold.

I do not believe in absolute expertise; what I believe in is studying together by sharing and discoursing on a commonly accepted friendly level. I have always seen our forum as an equitable community rather than a stage for individual grandstanding.
Go on believing you are the best.


From now on I will completely ignore your posts.

[fernando]

Accusations are taking over peaceful perspectives.
Thread now locked, at least temporarily.

[Andrew]

From now on I will completely ignore your posts.

This is a good idea. Explore the "ignore" function, please. Both of you. Today.

[fernando]

After having proceeded with some backstage adjustments connected with inconvenient participation, it was decided to reopen this thread ... essentially due to its added value.
Thank you.

[Matchlock]

The German term is Seilwinde.

Of wrought iron, inlaid with two engraved copper-alloy panels depicting St. George Slaying the Dagon and St. Geneviève of Brabant respectively;
the wooden crank handles missing.

Provenance:

- Christie's, April 17, 1988 (top attachment)
- Czerny's, October 17, 2008.

m

[David Jaumann]

That´s a very interesting windlass, Matchlock!
According to my knowledge, windlasses were often used in England (an other name for it is "englische Winde"), in the Flanders, and also in Italy. I have seen several of them in the doge´s palace in Venice. I suppose that all crossbows spanned with windlasses had rectangular stocks.
In the Kaiserburg of Nuremberg, there is a big "Wallarmbrust" of the 14th century, which also has a windlass on the stock.

There is a second crossbow from the late 15th century exposed in Nuremberg, which has a windlass on its stock. But I do think that this crossbow doesn´t match together with a windlass because it has a round stock and also a "Windknebel". It means, that it probably was spanned with a cranequin.
Besides that, this mentioned crossbow is a very unusual one! Its stock is, like already said, typical for the late 15th century. But the trigger has a ball on the back end and the prod is also very unusual for the late 15th century. It is a typical 14th or early 15th century flat prod with a strong reflex and the ends are bent foreward.
Next week, I will be in Nuremberg. I can take some photos of this crossbow if you want!

Do you think that there were german crossbows at all (apart from a "Wallarmbrust"), which had rectangular stocks and which were spanned with windlasses?

best wishes,

David

[Matchlock]

Hi David,


I know of only one wall crossow in the Nuremberg Imperial Castle exhibited together with a windlass and I posted it in post # 3 in this thread (and repeated down here).
I'd like to add that the rear end of its tiller is now incomplete and was originally longer.

I would be very grateful though if you could take good and detailed images of the 14th c. gun arrow, with iron fletchings (!), displayed inaptly to the left side of the wall crosswbow, asserting it belonged to it - which of course is rubbish!
When looking closely at the rear end of the arrow you will see that it clearly tapers; this is exactly the place where formerly a cord binding was attached, for tight contact with the gun's muzzle!
I remember spotting that very same gun arrow when it was still in a drawer in the reserve collection of the Germanisches Nationalmuseum, some 25 years ago; I pointed out that it actually was a gun arrow, and that its rear end still retained a small remainder of cord attached! The guy in charge rejected my theory, and when I next saw that arrow the cord was gone! ...

This sensational gun arrow has not been brought to anybody's attention so far although it is in much better condition than the famous ones in Burg Eltz!


It can be seen in the photos in post # 3 and attached below!


I would also be glad to see the second Nuremberg crossbow you mentioned, the tiller fitted with lugs for a cranequin, and now shown together with a windlass; please take some photos!


And yes, I too am convinced that windlasses were used in combination with crossbows with rectangular tillers. I cannot remember noticing it ...


Btw, I found out that I actually presented this fine windlass in post no. # 2; the images are better this time though.



Best wishes in return,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A depiction of a Late Gothic crossbow with composite horn bow painted with a lozenge pattern; from an altar piece by Hans Pleydenwurff, 1468-75, now preserved in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nuremberg.

Close-up photos by the author.


m

[David Jaumann]

Hi Michael!

I know at least a part of the picture you postet! The guard with the crossbow is shown in the book "Die Hornbogenarmbrust". I will have a look at it next week :)

It´s really aweful, that this guy from the museum removed the cord from the gun arrow! It sounds to me, as if he knew that your theory is right. Probably, he was to proud to admit it! I personally don´t know very much about early guns yet, but your view sounds very likely to me! The cord prevents the pressure from the explosion from escaping. Furthermore, the back end of this gun arrow is round, which is not the right shape for fitting into a crossbow nut.

I will definately take some pictures of the gun arrow and the crossbow I mentioned ! But I can´t promise that they will be really sharp, becaue my camera sometimes has problems in darker rooms.

Best,

David

[David Jaumann]

I have found a view good pictures of crossbow from Ulrich V.
It is a really unique crossbow, because it is much more decorated than the usual ones of the 15th century. I´m also very much astonished that there are cristian and jewish doxologies on it . What meaning could it have?

There are even more peculiarities!
I have never seen a crossbow with such a short bow compared to the draw length. And I don´t know any other crossbow with a composite prod, which has a reinforced nut! Having examined the pictures, I´m almost certain that the stock was made of yew wood!

[David Jaumann]

some more pictures.

[Matchlock]

Hi David,


Thanks for the additional images of the crossbow of Duke Ulrich of Württemberg dated 1460, which I introduced in post # 20.
It is preserved in the Met and is very unusual indeed in various respects.

The Met's description states that the bow does not belong originally, accounting for its small width, as well as the nut; it also gives some clues regarding the interpretation of the Hebrew inscription.

Yew wood was employed for making longbows for arrows, so your identification of the tiller being of yew wood is remarkable.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

For a comprehensive treatise on gun arrows 1330-1570, see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=141767#post141767

m

[fernando]

A (Portuguese soldier) figure with a crossbow, Benin Kingdom, mid XVI-XVII century (British Museum).
These bronze plates depicting Portuguese figures appeared after the exploring of the Kingdom in the end XV century. Benin was already established as a center for the casting of artworks in brass.
During this period, the figures of Portuguese soldiers and traders - recognizable for their long hair, aquiline noses and European dress - begin to appear in a variety of royal works, including plaques that decorated the pillars of Oba's (King's) palace.

.

[Matchlock]

Thank you, 'Nando,

For adding these facts hitherto unknown to me!

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

At least we may assume these are incendiary arrows. I realize they rather look as if a sheet of paper with the the notice 'Surrender!' is wrapped around the tips - but how much sense does that make?! :shrug:

From Diebold Schilling: Berne Chronicle, Switzerland, 1483; Siege of a town.

By the early 16th c., firearms had completely taken over in wafare.


Best,
Michael

[Glaive203]

Preserved at the City museum of Cologne, Germany.

In the first picture, the bow is of course inversed; this had been corrected by the time the second picture was taken.

The open curve of the composite bow is due to not having had a string attached for hundreds of years.

The detached bow of a huge wall crossbow also at the Cologne museum.

Michael

This is a false statement. Any horn bow or horn lath pulls forward like that when unstrung, even completely new ones.

[fernando]

... This is a false statement...
What a vivid way to make your point, Glaive203. Remarkably over an observation posted four years ago.

[David Jaumann]

Hello together!

It has been a while since I posted the last time!
I have been to Nuremberg and I took the promised pictures of the crossbows exposed in the "Germanisches Nationalmuseum".

The first crossbow was made in about 1475. The bow seems to be strong (500kg of drawweight is possible). Therefore I was quite astonished that the trigger is so short, even though the lock is a one-axle lock mechanism. How is it possible to pull the trigger without much effort? It must be much easyer to pull the long trigger of a 14th or early 15th century crossbow with a weaker prod, so were the crossbowmakers during the late 15th century able to construct more efficient one axle-lock mechanisms than before?

The second late 15th century crossbow is the one with the obsolete stong reflex horn and sinew prod and the weird trigger. I have had an exact look at it and it seems to me that the bow and the trigger were not originaly attached to the stock. The prod seems to be to broad for the stock and the belly is too round to fit exactelly. A bow with theses dimensions must have a draw weight of much more than 500kgs, but the stock seems to be very thin and fragile (much thinner than the stock of the first crossbow). The stock has several quite dark horn inlays that look simular to the inlays shown in "Die Hornbogenarmbrust" (Abb. 91). The only inlay with a different colour is on the lower side where the unusual trigger is located. I have the impression that the original horn inlay was removed in order to fit in the seccond trigger. What do you think?

Best wishes,
David

[David Jaumann]

I´m sorry... something with reducing the sice of the pictures didn´t work! I will post the pictures as soon as I have a soluion!

[fernando]

I´m sorry... something with reducing the sice of the pictures didn´t work! I will post the pictures as soon as I have a soluion!
If you wish, you may send them to me for resizing and posting, David :)
fernando@vikingsword.com

[David Jaumann]

pictures...

[David Jaumann]

more pictures...

[David Jaumann]

more pictures...

[David Jaumann]

Thanks for your offer Fernando!
I have installed a suitable program, so I was able to reduce the sice of the pictures by myself! But I can send you some of the unreduced pictures if you want! The problem is that I can only send five pictures with one email!

best wishes,
David

[fernando]

Great pictures, David.
No need to email them to me.
Appreciating these ones is quite satisfactory :cool:

[David Jaumann]

Thank you!

I forgot some pictures! Here you can see that the prod actually doesn´t fit to the stock. What do you think about the trigger?

[fernando]

I wish i knew enough to comment on that, David :o .
The more frequent house expert (Matchlock) will be absent for a while; no doubt when he comes back he will have a lot to post in order to update all his thread issues.
However we have more members who are also comfortably within this area; let's hope they chime in with their comments.

,

[Micke D]

I will try to write something about these crossbows, before the weekend when I have some time over.

[fernando]

I will try to write something about these crossbows, before the weekend when I have some time over.
:cool:

[Andi]

Archaeological Museum Hamburg is actually excavates some medieval housing sites along a street in Hamburg-Harburg which directs to the former main passage via the River Elbe to Hamurg. At one site they found at least 3 chrossbow nuts made from deers horn as well as a lot of crossbow bolts and musquete barrels dating to approx. 15th century. As they found also lots of other bone and horn objects they suppose that it was a bone carvers house, but the extraordinary high amount of other projectiles may also alow an other interpretation of the houses inhabitants profession.

Here is a photo which I made in August 2012 showing one of the corssbow nuts in comparison with such an object in a reconstructed corssbow. Unfortunately the museum has no information about this crossbow, neither its origin nor its dating. It was found in the museums inventory without any information. They believe it is an early modern reconstruction, maybe of the 19th century.

[David Jaumann]

Thank you for posting Andi! Do you have approximate messurements of the nuts? That would be very interesting!

I´m courios about your information of the Nuremberg-crossbows, Micke :)


Best wishes,
David

[fernando]

David, you have a PM (private message) in your box.

[Micke D]

Hello David and other interested!

These two crossbows in Nürnberg have inventory number W755 and W1762.

My guess is that W755, Armbrust 1, was made in the later part of the 15th century, probably around 1470-1480. It is a crossbow that was owned historically by the Count family Feldkirch-Montfort from Vorarlberg in Austria. I’m happy to say that there are quite a few crossbows preserved from this family, Inv.-nr. K.Z. 207 in Schweizerischen Landesmuseum in Zürich, Inv.-nr. 1777 in Historischen Museum in Bern, posted by Matchlock in post #54, Inv.-nr. 11464 in Legermuseum in Delft, posted by Matchlock in post #32, and my favorite one from Peter Finer Antiques that Matchlock posted in post #55. That post also shows the pattern of the printed birch bark cover on the bow with what looks like parts of the zodiac, but also other things like a squirrel and the Austrian flag.

W755 is of what I call the “second tiller type” from the 15th century, W1762 is from the “first tiller type”, and the “third tiller type” is the earliest examples of the more robust type of central European crossbows from the 16th to 18th century.

The “second tiller type” has a flat lower part on the underside next to the bow; we can see this in David’s photo “Armbrust 1 GNM_2”. The flat underside, with an inlayed dark piece of horn, changes into a round form in front of the lock. This type of crossbow is shorter and of a more robust type than the “first tiller type”. Inv.-nr. XI.434 in Leeds is a very similar crossbow in shape, style and dimensions, and it also has the skinny trigger that looks like it could come from the same smith.

W1762 is of the “first tiller type”, and is probably from the early half of the 15th century; my personal guess is that it may be from 1430-1440. I don’t have any dimensions for this crossbow, but it looks like it is longer than W755, and it should be that to. The tillers length was reduced during the 15th century from circa 90 cm’s to around 70 cm’s, and sometimes even shorter. It also has an earlier type of decorations on the tiller, and it’s inlayed almost from one end to the other.

The “first tiller type” has a more round bottomed lower part on the underside next to the bow; we can see this, but sadly not too well, in David’s photo “Armbrust 2 GNM 5”. In this photo we also see the white horn/bone inlay piece that ends, as almost always with this type, with an arrow shape.

I’m certain that he trigger is a later replacement; it hasn’t the right shape for a central European crossbow at all. After I have looked at it some more I also think that the tiller and bow probably didn’t belong to each other. If we look at David’s photo “Armbrust 2 GNM 10”, we will see that both the arrow rest and the underside has been restored, but the bow still looks a bit too wide for the tiller. It was originally made or converted later to use a cranequin, as we can see by the lugs in the tiller and not the English windlass it is photographed with now. I don’t know why the museum insist of having it attached to this crossbow as it doesn't fit the tiller.

[Micke D]

Was my answer to your liking gentlemen? 😊 Everything must be cristalclear as nobody have written any follow up questions! 😉

[fernando]

Was my answer to your liking gentlemen? �� Everything must be cristalclear as nobody have written any follow up questions! ��
Most certainly fully understood by everyone, Mike ... cristalclear, alright :)

[David Jaumann]

Thank you for your detailed answer, Micke!
I´m sorry that I didn´t write earlier.

It´s very interesting to know that there are several crossbows that can be allocated to the same family.

You said that the lengths of the stocks were reduced from 90cm to 70cm during the 15th century. On picture 90 in "Die Hornbogenarmbrust" which is dated to 1475, I can see a crossbow with a long stock that is spanned with a Riemenrollspanner. Do you think that old crossbows with the first tiller type were still used during the late 15th century or is it more likely that that some crossbowmakers still kept up making oldfashioned crossbows? The crossbow on picture 91 also has horninlays which seem to be oldfashioned...

Do you know more about the crossbow on post no.55?
It has a two-axle-lock and it looks quite simular to the crossbows shown on the St. Veit-Altar of 1487. So do you think that Peter Finer´s estimation is set too early?

Thank you and best wishes,
David

[Andi]

Thank you for posting Andi! Do you have approximate messurements of the nuts? That would be very interesting!


Today I have phoned with the museums curator and he told me that dimensions of the finds are normally not taken when inventarizing the objects. The dimensions of the crossbow nuts will be taken when they will be scientifically examined somewhen later. :shrug: :shrug:

Hopefully I can try to get them when next visiting the museum. In case I get them I will post them here.

[David Jaumann]

Thank you Andi!
That would be really nice! Is my guess right that this nut was constructed for a weaker crossbow that could be spanned with a belt?

[Micke D]

Yes this family seems to have had some crossbows and they span from middle to late 15th century.

I see now that I was generalizing maybe a bit too much when I said that about the length reduction. As you have seen for yourself, there were also longer crossbows later in the 15th c. The longer crossbows are, as you have also recognized, the ones that was spanned with Riemenrollenspanner. The crossbows that use the Cranequin are in most cases shorter. There are a few crossbows that have used both spanning systems, and a few that started with Riemenrollenspanner and gone over to the Cranequin, the crossbow in post no. 55 is of the latter type.

So I think that both types was made parallel to each other during the 15th c, the longer ones in many cases for war, as they were faster to span, and the shorter ones mostly for sport and hunting.

On page 38-41 in "Die Hornbogenarmbrust" you have an example of what looks like a very early long crossbow spanned with a Riemenrollenspanner, but I think it’s from 1430-1440 also but with an earlier style of inlays on the tiller underside that seems to have been popular around 1400.

I wish I had more info about the crossbow in post no. 55; as it’s one of the most interesting crossbows I have ever seen, I don’t even know if it has gone to a museum or a private collection. I will check with Finer if he can tell.
Yes it has a two-axle-lock, BUT the first axle is hidden/built in. Very strange!

No I don’t think that Peter Finer´s estimation is set too early, I think it is too late! I think this is the earliest known crossbow with a two-axle-lock. I have discussed this with Holger Richter, the author of "Die Hornbogenarmbrust" and he think it can be from as early as 1460, but my estimate is somewhere between 1460 and 1470. The crossbows shown on the St. Veit-Altar is probably the second oldest known crossbow with a two-axle-lock.

[David Jaumann]

It sounds very likely that the crossbow on post no.55 is one the first crossbows with a two-axle-lock, as you said! I guess that the crossbow maker wanted to hide the two-axle mechanism, because he didn´t want other crossbow makers to copy it. It could tell us that the two-axle-lock was´t common yet...


I do still have a view questions about composite prods of the late 15th century.

Were crossbow prods symmetrical or asymetrical in general?
On page 55 in "Die Hornbogenarmbrust" is a prod that looks asymetrical to me. But I´m not shure, if this impression is due to the camera perspective or if the prod distortioned during the last centuries. An asymetrical design would reduce the friction on the stock...

The horn stipes of a crossbow prod were shorter than the entire length of the entire prod, which means that the horn stripes must be assembeled angularily. Were these joinings always in the middle part as shown on page 52 in "die Hornbogenarmbrust" or were these joinings more often allocated on the entire length of the prod? Is a well made teethed joining always a potential weekpoint?

Thank you and best wishes,
David

[Micke D]

Hi David!

Yes I’m also thinking that this crossbow maker was hiding this new invention so that it wasn’t copied by his competitors. I believe that this crossbow maker could actually be THE inventor of the two axle lock, and maybe also the four axle lock! He was at least one of inventors. I think, based on the inlay design and the crossbows overall design, that this maker has also made the crossbow in post #1. This crossbow is later than the one in post #55; it could very well be from 1475 as it says at Peter Finer’s website. Check out the similar design of the crossbow and the delicate inlays between the hole in the tiller and the long white strip below the lock. An interesting and odd thing about this crossbow that it WAS originally built as a two axle crossbow, but it was later rebuilt as a one axle crossbow! This could of course have been done later when the tiller was repaired at the front.

If you also check out the fancier and a lot more expensive crossbow in post #88, page 3, Royal Armouries, Leeds, Inv. –Nr. XI. 11, you will see the same pattern of delicate inlays on the same place as the two other crossbows. This one has a kind of four axle lock, ("Die Hornbogenarmbrust" page 100), that don’t seem to have been used on other crossbows and a lot different than the usual type that was used from at least 1496 to more or less modern times.

I have earlier looked for asymmetrical composite bows, but I can’t say anything conclusive about it, some bows look a bit asymmetrical but the majority seems to be straight. I think the one you mentioned is much to degraded to use as an example for an asymmetrical bow. It’s possible that composite crossbow bows don’t handle the twisting well if they were built asymmetrically.

I think that it is always better if one can build the bow from as few and as long horn strips as possible, but if you look at page 46, 47 and 89 of "Die Hornbogenarmbrust", you will see some examples of how I think most looked inside with pieces of different length and thickness glued together. I don’t think the “teethed joining” between the layers was the weak point but possibly the overlap between the horn pieces or if you get more overlaps at the same place in one of the bow limbs. I think the “teethed joining” was what held the bow together, the pieces locked a bit like LEGO pieces to each other and the glue line was longer.

Best wishes,
Micke

[Andi]

Here you will find some macro photos of a crossbow nut found in the Schlossstraße in Hamburg-Harburg.

I am wondering about the substance which can be seen on the middle of the nuts notch. It seems to be metallic, possible lead or tin? Has anyone an idea of its purpose? I was also not able jet to take the dimensions and have to ask the exavators of the object.

[cornelistromp]

Here you will find some macro photos of a crossbow nut found in the Schlossstraße in Hamburg-Harburg.

I am wondering about the substance which can be seen on the middle of the nuts notch. It seems to be metallic, possible lead or tin? Has anyone an idea of its purpose? I was also not able jet to take the dimensions and have to ask the exavators of the object.

yes it is lead, or, in the case of a brass nut it is an iron bar.
it ensures as a counterweight that the nut reverses in the ideal position. (After each shot the nut rotates fast around.)
in the neutral position, the nut can be fixed by the bows internal mechanism while the string stretched can be attached behind the nut again.

best,

[Micke D]

It’s definitely not lead, it’s a reinforcement piece of iron or steel that’s riveted in the nut. All crossbow nuts have this from at least the 14th century.

[cornelistromp]

It’s definitely not lead, it’s a reinforcement piece of iron or steel that’s riveted in the nut. All crossbow nuts have this from at least the 14th century.

yes can also be made of iron.
the metal you can easily test with a magnet and the function of the counterweight with a shaft through the hole of the nut.

I believe it is a counterweight, apart from this a hole with metal will weaken the nut and not reinforce it.
the later 18thC brass nuts also have a counterweight, a metal bar placed on the width of the nut , reinforcement is no question here also.
all the 17 and 18thC crossbows I have and had in my collection had a counter weight build in making the nut always turning into the same position.

best,

[Matchlock]

Please note that the white and blue girdle bag was also used for crossbow bolts/quarrels, just as the usual quiver!

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A fine and important early painting by the Master of the Worcester Carrying of the Cross, active in Bavaria, where I live, ca. 1425.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

For a detailed treaty on the famous Ambras wheellock-crossbow combination of ca. 1525-26 preserved in the Bavarian National Museum (BNM) Munich, please see my new thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=164225#post164225


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

I thought I had posted these here before, and the search button confirmed me, but I cannot find them.
So please enjoy.

The first crossbow is of very early type, 14th c., the second may be dated to the end of the 15th c.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

More.

[cornelistromp]

More.

pictures © Andrea Carloni.

[Matchlock]

Two fine Gothic cranequins, mid- to late 15th c., in the famous Churburg collection, Schluderns, South Tyrol.

m

[Matchlock]

Two cranequins from German auctions at Hermann Historica, Munich.

The first Nuremberg, ca. 1540, by the 'Master of the crossed quarrels', the second dated 1565.


m

[Matchlock]

A fine Late Gothic crossbow, the tiller completely veneered in white staghorn. Sold at auction at Hermann Historica's, Munich, 2nd May 2013.

m

[Matchlock]

11th to 12th century Romanesque period artwork depicting crossbows.

m

[fernando]

Ah, ah ...
Remember the discussion on two foot crossbows ;) :D




.

[Matchlock]

Hi Nando, ;)


Your response sort of brightened up my mind a great deal because it seems to have gotten a pretty darn lonesome job I'm doin' here - since good people like Micke D and A. Senefelder evidently have stopped contributing ...


Best,
Michl

[fernando]

Don't be so sure ;)
They are around lurking and, when you less expect, they jump into the scene.
You just keep posting; don't look for excuses :shrug: :cool: :D

[Matchlock]

Don't be so sure ;)
They are around lurking and, when you less expect, they jump into the scene.
You just keep posting; don't look for excuses :shrug: :cool: :D



One again, my dear Sir, :rolleyes:


Though insubordinate a time or two, I'm trying to be at your command ...

Anyway I'm glad you show that you care!


Best,
Michl

[Marcus den toom]

Don't be sad my friend most of us do follow your post with great interest, but lack the knowledge (speaking for myself at least :o) to contribute in a challenging way. Be assured their are more than only Fernando and myself who care about your continous flow of wisdom, AMEN :D

[Matchlock]

Thank you both Nando and Marcus, ;)

I have been waiting for more than half a year now to receive some signalized reply, though ...
Knowing from my own sad health experience, however, I am aware of the fact that literally everythting is possible at any given time, so I can but wish them welll!

m

[Micke D]

"since good people like Micke D and A. Senefelder evidently have stopped contributing ..."

Thank you for these nice words Michael! I will try to contribute more, I have been busy with a new house, but I think I can find some stuff to show during spring/early summer.

[fernando]

"since good people like Micke D and A. Senefelder evidently have stopped contributing ..."

Thank you for these nice words Michael! I will try to contribute more, I have been busy with a new house, but I think I can find some stuff to show during spring/early summer.
You see ?
What did i tell you ?

[Marcus den toom]

These are some crosbow bolt heads i found at a current auction. Pictures with lenght from top to bottom:
-the first is 7cm long
-the second is 7,5 cm long
-the third is 15,5cm long
-the fourth is10cm long
-the fifth are 9 and 12 and are supposedly of saxony orrigin
-the sixed are5,5 to 13 cm long and are of norman origin
-the seventh are 8 to 11 cm long

http://i58.tinypic.com/1z6w2ef.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/2cq1e6b.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/2euii45.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/bg1dg2.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/dfiyi9.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/2r75a2v.jpg

http://i59.tinypic.com/6gass4.jpg

[Matchlock]

I do hope that David Jaumann ist still around here as this request is for him:

I remember that when you were last planning on attending the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg I asked you to take photos of the gun arrow on display at the Kaiserburg where it is labeled as a 'crossbow bolt for a wall crossbow'.

While I was in hopital for the whole of 2013 I noticed you posting new images of Nuremberg Gothic crossbows, so would you please let me know whether you succeeded in taking some of that item as well?


Thanks in advance,
and best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A good Nuremberg cranequin, dated 1556.

m

[Matchlock]

Another, earlier, ca. 1525, with finely engraved bone handle, the gear box struck with a maker's mark, a Gothic trefoil.
The belt hook missing, the cord for attaching the cranequin to the crossbow tiller damaged.

m

[Martin Moser]

Not really a crossbow, but what I hope is interesting information on the effectiveness of a somewhat similar weapon, the Roman scorpio - a torsion powered "bolt thrower":
www.planet-schule.de/sf/php/02_sen01.php?sendung=8624 (jump to minute 11:00, in German)
The testing took place at the Fraunhofer Institute for High-Speed Dynamics (http://www.en.emi.fraunhofer.de/).
With the weapon in the video above we (legio8augusta.de) managed a maximum of 12 bolts fired in 60 secs with a 3 man crew after some hours of scorpio drill over 2 days and a few adjustments on the weapon.

Best,
Martin

[Matchlock]

As their principle is basically the same as incendiary arrows, I'd like to introduce two extremely rare 16th-17th c. tar lances (German: Pechlanzen) in the Emden Armory.
The incendiary tar mass was set afire and the lance was hurled by some sort of a catapult onto the shingled roofs of a besieged town where the delicate iron arrowheads got stuck, and the blazing tar would splatter around. Additionally, the short barrels are barbed for better contact with the roof shingles.
The saucer-like wooden plate at the bottom was meant to direct the splashing fire right onto the roof.

The measurements are:
overall length 2.25 m
width of the tar saucer 21 cm
weight 3.2 kg


I took these photos in 1987.


m