Some late Gothic daggers

[Matchlock]

... from Peter Finer's site. Fine, noch cheap.

Michael

[Matchlock]

The last image of the Swiss dagger.

[Matchlock]

More.

[Matchlock]

The rest.

[celtan]

Mine are prettier...

:p

[Matchlock]

You sure are a lucky guy, celtan! (and a rich one, too).

Michael ;)

[celtan]

Jut kiddin', and not really. I'm a working guy just like all of us, with a love for objets d'art disguised as weapons.

And it's all a matter of taste, some may choose dinners at IHOP over Morton's, and with arguably good reasons.

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/1500-1600s%20European%20Dagger/EurodaggerB1.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/1500-1600s%20European%20dagger%20multifullered/16thcentmainaigurr.jpg

BTW: Very nice posts, Michael. Keep up the good work!

Best regards

Manuel

You sure are a lucky guy, celtan! (and a rich one, too).

Michael ;)

[Gonzalo G]

Are they your´s Manolo? They are very beautiful pieces. It´s a pity the first photo is not completely clear. Can you give some information about the measures, materials and weight of this pieces? Thank you very much for your attention.
Regards

Gonzalo

[celtan]

Muchas Gracias Gonzalo,

I must commend your excellent taste, they are indeed muy bonitas.

OTOH, they are very dangerous, I hope nobody paid the ultimate price after meeting these femmes fatales. Their blades are most wicked.

Will do as you request. In the meanwhile, check these pics. Best if you use the slideshow feature.

http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/1500-1600s%20European%20Dagger/

http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/r371/runswithswords/1500-1600s%20European%20dagger%20multifullered/

[David]

Matchlock, i am confused by the Peter Finer tag on all these daggers. Are they currently for sale or up for auction?

[Matchlock]

David,

Peter Finer is an antique arms & armor dealer. Some of these daggers are contained in his current online catalog:

http://peterfiner.com

Michael

[Jim McDougall]

David,

Peter Finer is an antique arms & armor dealer. Some of these daggers are contained in his current online catalog:

http://peterfiner.com

Michael

Interesting site, and Peter Finer is an outstanding dealer who has been around a very long time! What I cant see though is if this is a current auction, which is the concern.

[Emanuel]

Hello, gorgeous daggers!

This one made my eyes bulge. It recalls the decorative scheme we see on the handles of bou-saada (khodme) daggers from Algeria, and we've seen it on some Central Asian and Indo-Persian daggers as well. Almost the same decoration of a circle within a circle, repeated along multiple facets.

The pictures below the ballock dagger show: a dagger from Iran, a khodme, a bichaq, and another khodme (I got the top three pics from older threads, the bottom khodme was mine). The circles are in some cases painted/burned, into the handle surface. None of these examples are particularly old, but it's interesting to see the pattern maintained or revived.

Regards,
Emanuel

[David]

David,

Peter Finer is an antique arms & armor dealer. Some of these daggers are contained in his current online catalog:

http://peterfiner.com

Michael
Yes, i am well aware that Peter Finer is a dealer. This is exactly my point. If these are current auctions then they should not be discussed on the forum. It's is the forum rules if you haven't read them. ;) :)

[stekemest]

Almost the same decoration of a circle within a circle, repeated along multiple facets.
That "cirle within a cirle"-decoration can be seen on many celtic artifacts and, somehow, reappears around the 13th/14th century to be in use throughout the late middle ages. I could well imagine that the eastern and western pieces with that decoration have the same origin in prehistorical times.

btw, here's one of my gothic daggers. A rather rare piece from the first half of the 15th century, German, blade maybe shortened. I will start working on a replica soon.

[Gonzalo G]

!Muchas gracias, Manuel! I got them all! Now, I have your daggers.
Un abrazo

Gonzalo

[G. McCormack]

AFAIK, Finer just groups his items by price on his website. I dont think there is a need to get up in arms, so to speak.

Interesting to see the leatherwork on some of those daggers.

He used to send out some catalogs for free, now they cost a bit but are quite lovely.
If I had tens of thousands of dollars, I could maybe vouch for the items and not just the catalogs :D

Always interesting to see similar decorations on pieces from different places, but of course, a circle within a circle...about as simple and logical as you can get from a human craftsman, yes?

[stekemest]

It is quite simple, yes, but every decoration is an expression of style. You can't imagine such a decoration in Chinese art for example. On the other hand, you won't find the simple stroke-decoration of neolithic ceramics on medieval or later pieces. A single unit of decoration can be as simple as possible, but it is only used if it fits the style of a certain time.
there speaks the art historian... :D

[Ed]

Yes, i am well aware that Peter Finer is a dealer. This is exactly my point. If these are current auctions then they should not be discussed on the forum. It's is the forum rules if you haven't read them. ;) :)

Hi.

Peter is a dealer, not an auction house. But I am curious, can you point me to the rules? Can't seem to find 'em.

[Matchlock]

David,

I can see your point. I did not mean to do wrong. Sorry. ;)

Michael

[Matchlock]

David,

I, like Ed, definitely wish to be pointed to exactly that rule saying that posts concerning dealers' offers are banned from our forum.

Michael

[celtan]

Upper is 11.3 oz in wt., almost 16.5" long, and with a 12" blade.

Lower is 6.1 oz. in wt., 13" long, and with a 8.3" blade

Sorry it took this long, but I had them stored in their display.

Best

M

Are they your´s Manolo? They are very beautiful pieces. It´s a pity the first photo is not completely clear. Can you give some information about the measures, materials and weight of this pieces? Thank you very much for your attention.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

!Thank you, Manuel! I will writte this specifications on the files.
Un abrazo

Gonzalo

[David]

David,

I, like Ed, definitely wish to be pointed to exactly that rule saying that posts concerning dealers' offers are banned from our forum.

Michael
Here is a link to the forum rules gentlemen. If you scroll down you will find rule #1 refers to forum policy regarding live auctions, though it would probably be a good idea to read them all. ;) The Finer site didn't make it clear to me whether his pieces are auctioned or sold for a set price. Frankly i don't think it is a very good idea to post any for sale items, auction or otherwise as it turns the forum into a marketplace instead of an academic forum, but i believe this forum rule really most applies to auctions.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

[Matchlock]

Thank you, Sir,

I will obey to the rules.

Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you, Sir,

I will obey to the rules.

Michael


No problems Michael, and thank you for your most courteous response to the concerns expressed by David on whether this was an auction or not. It does seem unusual that these items catalogued are shown with a price range, which led to the assumption this was an auction .

It is clear that your posting of these items was intended for scholarly study purposes rather than commercial, so I would consider that within fair use perameters, and these included the cite for the photo owner.

David, thanks for your input, and for your reiteration on the forum rules. I agree it would be better to avoid posting items out of catalogs currently for sale, however it does seem suggested in the rules that fair use does permit this as long as properly cited, if I understand correctly. In the thread here, these were posted in the context presented for the purpose of scholarly discussion, not a sale thread, in which case they would have gone to the swap forum. I could not find, as Ed noted, anything specifically prohibiting catalog items, only live auction items.
I think that is where the confusion lies.

[stekemest]

I thought this thread was about gothic daggers and not about the forum rules. :( Please delete my posting then, unfortunately I cant do it myself.

[celtan]

Guys,

Nobody is wrong here. It behooves us to keep things in perspective. We are here to learn, and I haven't seen anyone pushing items for sale so far. I guess that as long as we don't discuss prices, value, or push to sell an item, it's quite clear that we are only benefitting knowledge-wise.

Stekemest's (BTW, Interesting nom-de-guerre: Master of the stake, master of the steak? : ) ) posting is quite valuable for this purpose, as are those of Matchlock, Gonzalo, Fernan , Jim et al...


Manolo

[David]

I thought this thread was about gothic daggers and not about the forum rules. :( Please delete my posting then, unfortunately I cant do it myself.
Stekemest, i am not sure why you are so upset by the discussion of forum rules. The rules exist for a reason and i believe i raised a legitimate comcern in regards to the Finer site and live auctions. I also believe those concerns have been settled and folks are back to talking about the daggers. Why would you want your posts deleted and your contribution to this discussion erased?
:confused:

[Matchlock]

Hi, Jim,

Thank you for your good lines - they should really mend fences and be the final word on the subject.
Our forum ought to be inspired by a sense of community, after all.

With my very best wishes,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

I thought this thread was about gothic daggers and not about the forum rules. :( Please delete my posting then, unfortunately I cant do it myself.


Hi Stekemest,
You're absolutely right, I'd rather keep those unfortunate elements of public interaction out of what was (and still is) a very nicely coursed discussion. I am completely with you on the observations you have made concerning the subtle decorative motif and styling of weapons as related to art.....most well said, and I hope you will stay with your thoughts on this and continue.

I also noticed that circle around the dot, and it is interesting to see how widely applied that symbol is used. I have seen it across North Africa, which indeed reflects considerable influence from Balkans, Europe and Central Asia. It is consistantly seen on many Afghan weapons, such as lohar and I have seen it on the handles of Buzkashi whips. It occurs in India, and is said to reflect extremely ancient symbolism.
Stylistically it is typically thought of as a solar symbol I believe.

In reading your comments, I began looking through sources that I had seen with very pertinant perspective that I think echoes what you have said.
In "Imperial Austria: Treasure of Art, Arms and Armor from the State of Styria" , an exhibition catalog from Fine Arts Museum in Houston, 1992, it is noted that Bruno Thomas and Ortwin Gamber, authors of "Studies in Armor", "...convincingly explained that rather than being mere accessories, weapons are in fact themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendancies of a period".

I would expand that to include, tendancies of regions and cultures as well, and the weapons reflect influences that correspond often to the introduction of elements of style or motif of other cultures.

The study of arms and armour history is emphatically also about the study of art, architecture, religion, tradition, superstition, and many other cultural studies. It is unfortunate that often many museums fall short in viewing arms and armour in these perspectives.

Thank you for your views, and I have added my own in hopes that the discussion will continue.

With all very best regards,
Jim