Moro blades galore: Any gem/s here?

[migueldiaz]

Hi all,

Been checking out the antique/souvenir shops in Mindanao (Davao, Mindanao) and Manila.

Here are pics I snapped using my cellphone camera. There's a lot of tourist items all right.

I was just wondering whether anybody would think there's anything worth further checking out.

By the way, I'd freely give the name and contact info of the stores, if anybody would be interested to know.

[migueldiaz]

Here's from another store ...

[migueldiaz]

Second store, continued ...

[migueldiaz]

Store number three ...

[migueldiaz]

Store no. 3, continued ...

[migueldiaz]

More from store no. 3 ...

[migueldiaz]

We are still at store no. 3 ...

By the way, the one with MOP in the scabbard was the subject of my earlier query in http://216.219.192.186/vb/showthread.php?t=7349. Nobody has yet commented on what the characters mean ... the blade is supposed to be from a juramentado.

From Wikipedia: Juramentado, in Philippine history, is an archaic term derived from the Spanish word juramentar, meaning one who takes an oath, and refers to a male Moro warrior who attacked and killed targeted Christian police and soldiers, expecting to be killed himself in the attempt.

[migueldiaz]

Still on store no. 3 ...

[migueldiaz]

Last set for store no. 3 ...

[migueldiaz]

From various other stores ...

[migueldiaz]

More ...

[migueldiaz]

Last set of pics ...

[CharlesS]

Thanks for all these pics. At first glance this looks like a drool fest....

There are far too many pieces here to try to go through piece by piece, but overall, I would say that the vast majority of these pieces are newly produced, produced from parts, or have somehow been reworked.

[Bill M]

Echoing Charles... New made. I wondered were all the tourist pieces came from. Now I understand better.

There may be a gem hiding in there --- somewhere. :shrug: But there sure is an awful (with emphasis on the "awful") lot of -- let's just say pieces I would not even think about buying. :eek:

[migueldiaz]

Thanks for all these pics. At first glance this looks like a drool fest....

There are far too many pieces here to try to go through piece by piece, but overall, I would say that the vast majority of these pieces are newly produced, produced from parts, or have somehow been reworked.
Echoing Charles... New made. I wondered were all the tourist pieces came from. Now I understand better.

There may be a gem hiding in there --- somewhere. :shrug: But there sure is an awful (with emphasis on the "awful") lot of -- let's just say pieces I would not even think about buying. :eek:
Hi Charles, Hi Bill,

Yes that's true. I'm very new to this stuff and yet even to my untrained eye the newness of some (if not many) of the items is very much apparent.

Most of the storekeepers I've met are not passing them off as antiques or old items, however.

And at least one of them storekeepers, who happened to be the owner of the shop also [he's a Maranao], was very much transparent to me in telling me which item is old, and which are repros and/or 'tourist'.

Like what I've also read in this forum, once you've shown to the storeowner that you do not belong to that 95% tourist market and you are more on the 5% serious collector niche (am just guessing the percentages), then they start showing you the good stuff from the backroom.

Then that's when it really gets interesting!

In any case, even if you don't get to buy anything, it's still very much fun sifting through the items, tourist or otherwise. And if the storeowner happened to have a genuine interest on blades too, then all the more your day is made.

[Spunjer]

ah, is that ermita?

anywho, a good one for you, bro. pic#3. the kampilan with pungkol handle. i would almost bet that's orig... ;)

[Bill M]

Hi Miguel,

I would spend the time looking at the pieces if you like though I suspect there is little to be learned there of actual value. Please also beware of the "good stuff in the back room" sales technique.

If shopkeepers have good stuff, they will likely display it in the "front room," or it will have already been sold to a knowledgeable collector.

There is also the wonderful tale about the "noble family who has fallen on bad times and must sell the family heirlooms." This is also often combined with, "They need to do this quietly, without advertising because they don't want their friends/neighbors/relatives to know they need money badly."

"If you, as a smart collector can move fast enough.........."

Listen to their wonderful stories. Buy something cheap but fun. But unless you really know the pieces, odds are very great that you will buy expensive tourist pieces that were made to appeal to a "new" collector! :rolleyes:

[apolaki]

OMG! how much is the portraits of the lumad tribesmen in your picture?

also the kulintang set...

a nd the singkil anklets & the tiboli bead neckklaces....


WOWOOWOWOWOWOWOWWOOO.... lol

[VANDOO]

THAT WAS A FUN ROMP THRU THE SWORD SHOPS OF MANILA. :D

I AGREE THAT THE MAJORITY OF ITEMS APPEAR TO BE OF FAIRLY RECENT MANUFACTURE. NO DOUBT SOME BLADES AND FITTINGS ARE OLD ORIGINALS WITH NEWER ADDITIONS AND SOME MAY EVEN BE ENTIRELY ORIGINAL.
IT IS FUN TO HAGGLE IN SUCH PLACES AND I WOULD BE DISAPOINTED IF THEY DID NOT TRY TO SELL ME A BILL OF GOODS. BUT THE STORIES AND THE OLD THE GOOD STUFF IS IN THE BACK ROOM AND MY CHILDREN ARE STARVING IS ALWAYS FUN AND ADDS TO THE FLAVOR OF DOING BUSINESS IN SUCH SHOPS. :D
I SAW SOME ITEMS I WOULD HAGGLE FOR EVEN IF THEY WERE NEW.
THE THING TO DO IS
1. LOOK FOR THE QUALITY AND WORKMANSHIP OF THE ITEM (NOTE THE FILE WORK ON MOST OF THE KRIS BLADES IS POORLY DONE) THIS DOSEN'T NECESSARLY SAY IT IS NEWLY MADE JUST THAT THE MAKER WAS NOT VERY GOOD AT THAT PART OF THE JOB OR DID NOT CARE.
2. THE PERSONEL APPEAL IT HAS TO YOU REGARDLESS OF IF IT FOLLOWS A TRADITIONAL FORM EXACTLY
3. IS IT A FAIR PRICE

A WELL MADE OLD ORIGINAL KRIS THAT HAS SEEN USE WILL HAVE A GOOD BALANCE AND FEEL IN THE HAND. OFTEN THE BLADE WILL BE SHARP ENOUGH TO SHAVE HAIR OFF YOUR ARM. IF IT HAS BEEN TRICKED OUT WITH A BUNCH OF FANCY NEW FITTINGS OR IS A NEW BLADE THE BALANCE AND FEEL WILL USUALLY BE OFF.
FOR EXAMPLE I RECENTLY LET MY FAVORITE SWORD GO TO A PIRATE MUSEUM OF A FRIEND. IT WAS A 1870 U.S. NAVEL CUTLASS WITH BRASS GAURD AND WAS A DREAM TO HANDLE AND WAVE AROUND. :D

I MISSED IT AND SAW A NICE LOOKING REPLICA FOR A GOOD PRICE ON EBAY AND WON, IT LOOKS NICE BUT HANDLES LIKE A FIRE PLACE POKER AND IS NO FUN AT ALL. :p


I FIND IT VERY INTERESTING SOME OF THE NEW VARIATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN TRIED BY THE WEAPON MAKERS SOME ARE VERY FUNNY OR GARISH AND SOME QUITE APPEALING. WHILE ITS NICE TO JUST COLLECT GOOD ORIGINAL OLD TRADITIONAL FORMS, THE WELL MADE INOVATIONS ALSO HAVE A NICH AND ARE WORTHY OF COLLECTING IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT. :cool:

STORE #3 WOULD MY FIRST STOP :D

[apolaki]

i don't quite understand. these swords are made in the philippines by local craftsman where the swords originate. if they are modern creations, how are they any less? i mean didn't the person who posted these pictures say that one vendor is an actual maranao? if it's just a matter of age, i can understand that, but from a cultural ethnographic point of view, should they not hold the same esteem, antique & modern?

Thanks,

apolaki

ps - would so buy those lumad portraits even if they are modern!!!!!!!!!

[Spunjer]

We are still at store no. 3 ...

By the way, the one with MOP in the scabbard was the subject of my earlier query in http://216.219.192.186/vb/showthread.php?t=7349. Nobody has yet commented on what the characters mean ... the blade is supposed to be from a juramentado.

From Wikipedia: Juramentado, in Philippine history, is an archaic term derived from the Spanish word juramentar, meaning one who takes an oath, and refers to a male Moro warrior who attacked and killed targeted Christian police and soldiers, expecting to be killed himself in the attempt.

miguel,

highly doubt it was from a juramentado, or magsabil. the last true cases were during the early part of 20th century. after that, it was more like crazy amoks running around, gunning for anyone, christians and muslims. the barung is from the latter half of the century. i don't think the moro made a specific barung for such an act anyways...

if you don't mind tho, could you please list the name and contact of those stores listed? dunno if i get to make it there next year, but if i do, i would like to visit them... last time i was there i visited mang ven's store in ermita

[David]

if you don't mind tho, could you please list the name and contact of those stores listed? dunno if i get to make it there next year, but if i do, i would like to visit them... last time i was there i visited mang ven's store in ermita
I think that this would be best done in private messages. ;) :)

[David]

i don't quite understand. these swords are made in the philippines by local craftsman where the swords originate. if they are modern creations, how are they any less? i mean didn't the person who posted these pictures say that one vendor is an actual maranao? if it's just a matter of age, i can understand that, but from a cultural ethnographic point of view, should they not hold the same esteem, antique & modern?
Apolaki, this is a valid question, but i am afraid that most of these modern pieces are made for the tourist trade, not with the same care, intention and level of quality that you will find in those actually made as true cultural weapons meant to be fought with by the Moro people. If you held them side by side you would understand the difference better. Certainly these are being made by local craftsmen, but it is sort of like buying a jazzed up tomahawk peace pipe from a Native American at a roadside Indian trading post somewhere in the Southwest states. It may actually be made BY an Indian, but it wasn't made FOR and Indian. Get it? ;) :)

[migueldiaz]

ah, is that ermita?

anywho, a good one for you, bro. pic#3. the kampilan with pungkol handle. i would almost bet that's orig... ;)
hi spunjer, pare ko :)

the very first set of pics is in an antique shop in sm-megamall in manila.

i didn't like this store however. for one the shop attendants are clueless as to what they are selling. second, their lowest priced kris which has 'tourist' written all over it is being sold for a highway robbery price of P10k [$200]! :eek:

the rest of the pics would be from various shops in aldevinco (davao city) and from a maranao-owned store in metro manila (at tiendesitas shopping center in c-5, pasig city).

i'll just email you the contact info of the most reputable storeowner i've met, i.e., the maranao guy, who owns a shop both in aldevinco and in tiendesitas.

now as for that kampilan with a truncated hilt, your weapon sighting system is truly surgically-precise as dimasalang [from another forum] said!

because out of those one hundred items i've looked at, that was the one that even in real life has got all the marks of an authentic old piece -- and in fact that's the one i bought a month ago.

i was able to etch the kampilan's blade last night, following the tips gathered from this forum. the blade's lamination has come out, and i'm going to post the pics of that kampilan on a new thread, to further solicit all of your opinions.

ps - i've never been to the ermita antique shops. but i plan to do that this fine saturday morning!

bill, thanks for the heads-up and we'll see whether the shopkeepers would still be singing the same tune :rolleyes:

[migueldiaz]

... Listen to their wonderful stories. Buy something cheap but fun. But unless you really know the pieces, odds are very great that you will buy expensive tourist pieces that were made to appeal to a "new" collector! :rolleyes:
Hi Bill,

Thanks indeed for the heads-up! :)

Having faith in humanity in general :D I do sometimes get suckered into a raw deal, thanks to those "wonderful stories".

But I do have my own counter-stories, like "My plane is leaving in a few hours" after which I make a counteroffer of half the asking price. Or "My wife will kill me if she finds out I bought this for blah blah blah" and then once again I shamelessly lowball the item's price.

You'll actually perceive by the body English of the person whether you are anywhere near the true value of the piece.

And whether it's an antique piece or a repro or whatever, it all boils down to what's a fair price as mentioned.

Normally, I look for strong emotions, even anger! Like if my half-the-price-lowballing had him/her screaming me out of the door, then I'd know that I've reached the threshold or my assumption was wrong. Either way, I was able to peel away at more layers of the onion :)

So indeed, half the fun is getting there!

And thanks again Bill for those tips. I'll surely keep those in mind in my next sortie.

[migueldiaz]

THAT WAS A FUN ROMP THRU THE SWORD SHOPS OF MANILA. :D ... STORE #3 WOULD MY FIRST STOP :D
Hi Vandoo,

Thanks too for your opinion and tips. Much appreciated. I love this forum! :)

And Store No. 3 would really have the most interesting pieces.

I must also agree with you that half the fun in going over the swords (separating the thrash from the keepers) is precisely the dynamics of negotiating.

And if at times I would have successfully resisted that impulse-buy temptation, I also get a sense of smug satisfaction of how a 'good boy' I'd been :D

But for how long, who knows? ;)

[migueldiaz]

highly doubt it was from a juramentado, or magsabil ...

if you don't mind tho, could you please list the name and contact of those stores listed? dunno if i get to make it there next year, but if i do, i would like to visit them... last time i was there i visited mang ven's store in ermita
spunjer,

thanks for the comments. that lays to rest then the notion that said barung was especially made for or by a juramentado.

following david's advice, i'll just email you the contact info of the stores listed. on the shops in ermita, manila, i've never been there but i do plan on going there today.

i'll also look for mang ven's shop.

best regards!

[migueldiaz]

ps - would so buy those lumad portraits even if they are modern!!!!!!!!!
apolaki, yeah why not?

in metro manila, tiendesitas (owner also of greenhills shopping center in san juan) would be it. in mindanao, i think aldevinco shopping center would have the most number of shops.

good luck!

[kino]

I would have fun there just looking around. There would be things other than edged weapons to separate me from my meager allowance.

was able to etch the kampilan's blade last night, following the tips gathered from this forum. the blade's lamination has come out, and i'm going to post the pics of that kampilan on a new thread, to further solicit all of your opinions.

Miguel, what did you use as an etchant, I have heard that an unripe Balimbing works well.

Daghang Salamat for posting the photos.

[migueldiaz]

I would have fun there just looking around. There would be things other than edged weapons to separate me from my meager allowance.

Miguel, what did you use as an etchant, I have heard that an unripe Balimbing works well.

Daghang Salamat for posting the photos.
Hi Kino!

I used kitchen vinegar as etchant, and following the tips given by Kai and Bill in this forum.

As for the use of 'balimbing', what I heard is that 'kamias' can be used. So I'll just try both.

Salamat! [thank you], also :)

[migueldiaz]

I've just gotten back from checking out the antique shops in the downtown (Ermita district) of the city of Manila.

I was looking for kampilans, and I've posted the pics of the five kampilans I'm choosing from, in this thread -- Five kampilans: which two to buy? (http://216.219.192.186/vb/showthread.php?t=7397) Hope you can give me some guidance there.

As to what else are there in that popular antique store in Ermita, please see attached.

[migueldiaz]

Some more pics:

[migueldiaz]

More:

[migueldiaz]

Last set, still the same store:

[kino]

I would give up an "E-Ride ticket", to walk thru these shops ( if any of you ever used one of these tickets, you're old like me :D )

Miguel, again thanks for posting the photos.

[KuKulzA28]

I too wish I could walk into these shops... are there any honestly functional and strong blades there or are they all fragile antiques or tourist items? I dunno if it's worth trying to find someone who could help me acquire a barong from a good reputable shop...

:shrug:

[Battara]

Most of the stuff in the pictures are recently made. There are some that are perhaps older - mostly those that are Lumad or Igorot.

[David]

Most of the stuff in the pictures are recently made. There are some that are perhaps older - mostly those that are Lumad or Igorot.
I agree. While a walk through these shops might be interesting i think that in the end it might also prove frustrating as i pull one contemporary kris after another out of their nice shiny dress. But maybe the owner has something special under the counter. ;) :)
KuKulz, you will find that many of the newer blades are quite "functional" and that many more of the older "antiques" are even more functional. In fact, i have rarely handled an antique kris that i would consider fragile. They are usually very well made blades that hold up well over the years. :)

[KuKulzA28]

so the concern is not so much that they might not work as intended but that they might not all be authentic antiques?

[David]

so the concern is not so much that they might not work as intended but that they might not all be authentic antiques?
Pre-WW2 Moro swords in general tend to be much better quality weapons. That doesn't mean that a kris made in the 1980s, let's say, couldn't do a fair job cutting someone up. At least some of them. The big difference for me would be one of intention, though i do like to collect pieces that might have a solid sense of history as well. Let's face reality. The days of edged weapons warfare is pretty much past. A kris made in the late 19th century more than likely was made to kill someone. One made in the 1960's - present was more than likely made with the intention of hanging it on the wall as a bit of decoration. I generally prefer the weapon that was made to be a weapon.
But for many of us it is a matter of aesthetics. Placing an old kris next to one of these contemporary swords will probably show you this rather quickly. Both of them might be effective at killing, but the antique will most often be aesthetically more pleasing to the eye.

[KuKulzA28]

I see, thank you, I wanted to make sure I understood. :)

So say I want to get a legitimate Filipino blade that's aesthetically pleasing (and functional) and I live in the USA... how hard would it be to acquire one as seen in all these nice images? From what I've heard the shopping usually needs to be done on the spot, ya? If so I would not be surprised. There is one main Taiwanese aboriginal blade-maker that I know of and finding his contact info was hard enough. And I think the only time I could buy an aboriginal blade is the next time I go back to Taiwan to visit relatives (someday)... The Philippines would be a whole new world and quite an adventure :D not that I have that kind of money :rolleyes:

[Rick]

Looks like you're posting from the Northeast US .
You haven't heard of eBay ? :confused:

[mross]

I see, thank you, I wanted to make sure I understood. :)

So say I want to get a legitimate Filipino blade that's aesthetically pleasing (and functional) and I live in the USA... how hard would it be to acquire one as seen in all these nice images? From what I've heard the shopping usually needs to be done on the spot, ya? If so I would not be surprised. There is one main Taiwanese aboriginal blade-maker that I know of and finding his contact info was hard enough. And I think the only time I could buy an aboriginal blade is the next time I go back to Taiwan to visit relatives (someday)... The Philippines would be a whole new world and quite an adventure :D not that I have that kind of money :rolleyes:

Or, you could just check the swap forum for some leads.

[KuKulzA28]

oh I've heard of eBay... but the barongs on eBay tend to cost more than I have to spend... and I rarely ever seen any Taiwanese aboriginal knives... so I was lookin for alternatives... the aboriginal knives I can get in Taiwan next time I visit... but Filipino stuff... that's tougher

[Rick]

oh I've heard of eBay... but the barongs on eBay tend to cost more than I have to spend... and I rarely ever seen any Taiwanese aboriginal knives... so I was lookin for alternatives... the aboriginal knives I can get in Taiwan next time I visit... but Filipino stuff... that's tougher

Thin wallet syndrome can be a deterrent, that's true . :( :shrug:
Yes, good Taiwanese stuff is rare and expensive .
Possibly a side trip to Japan next time you go seeing as they occupied it for some years ... :shrug: :)

[KuKulzA28]

yea, well I suspect that Taiwanese knives in Japan would be like Filipino knives in the USA... soldiers bring 'em home... there was a small amount of toursim blades made for foreign soldiers... doesn't mean they don't work, just not entirely traditional I guess....

However the aboriginal knifemaker, Nmah Yioudau, in Hualien County (NE side) still makes traditional blades and if my parents can't get them for me when they go back to visit my elderly grandparents, I'll get them myself when I go back to visit (been setting aside money from my budget for the plane tickets)... yay for Taiwanese heritage! :D

[David]

Well, it's hard to know what you consider to be too expensive. I see a whole lot of this contemporary Moro stuff go pretty cheaply on eBay, unless, of course, some bidder gets it in his head that he is bidding on an actual antique. :) You are right about GI bring backs, and because of that there are a lot of Moro weapons here in the USA. I bought my first kris in an antique mall not too far from you in Keene, NH. The seller didn't even know what it was and sold it pretty cheaply. These weapons also tend to show up at gun shows alot, also due to the US military connection. But if you are really interested in the contemporary kris and barong that are shown in most of the photos on this thread you can definitely find tons of them on eBay, probably cheaper than they are in these "antique" stores in the Philippines.

[migueldiaz]

The big difference for me would be one of intention, though i do like to collect pieces that might have a solid sense of history as well ... Placing an old kris next to one of these contemporary swords will probably show you this rather quickly. Both of them might be effective at killing, but the antique will most often be aesthetically more pleasing to the eye.
Hi David,

Amen! :)

Hello KuKulzA28,

To expound on David's point, if for instance the kris was antique, then wouldn't it be exciting to think that perhaps the said piece was one of those that figured in a famous Moroland battle (http://www.freewebs.com/philippineamericanwar/stallingmororesistance.htm), like the one described below?

Note where the kris was when Hassan died:

"Panglima Hassan (central figure in pic below), was killed in action against the Americans on March 4, 1904 at Bud Bagsak (Mount Bagsak).

"Hassan was the district commander of Luuk, Sulu, under the Sulu Sultanate. He was the first Tausug leader to defy the sultan’s order, that, in the interest of peace, the people should acknowledge American sovereignty. As an Imam (roughly translates to "prayer leader"), Panglima Hassan looked at the intrusive American 'infidels' as threats to Islam and Moro society . The Tausug Moros had allowed the Spaniards to build a garrison in Siasi and a church in Jolo by virtue of the 1878 peace pact, but that was it. After 300 years of almost continuous warfare, the Spanish had known better than to try and impose their authority over the fiercely independent Sulu people. But the Americans --- backed by utterly lethal modern weapons --- had no such reservations.

"In early November 1903, Hassan and about 3,000 to 4,000 warriors besieged the American garrison in Jolo. Armed only with krises (wavy-edged swords) and some old rifles, they bottled up the Americans for a week before being forced to withdraw. Following a battle, Hassan was captured while bathing near his camp at Lake Seit in late November 1903, but he soon escaped. He resumed the war in February 1904 when, together with Datu ('Chief') Laksamana and Datu Usap, they attacked the pro-American Sultan Kiram and his forces in the battle of Pampang. He lost in the battle, and was later killed with his two companions along the crater of Bud Bagsak. Hassan had 17 wounds in his body, but died game, crawling with his kris in his mouth toward the nearest wounded American soldier when the last bullet dispatched him."

To all,

Would it actually be possible to trace where in the US Hassan's kris is for instance? And the others'?

I cannot imagine the value of said krisses if provenance can be established!

[KuKulzA28]

I see... so as in the soul of the weapon, it's history... the blood and sweat on it, and that is what makes an antique amazing... like an elder who knows his/her shit and can do things that surprise you, but nevertheless, even though they've seen many days, they're old, and starting to lose their young vigor

[mross]

Hi David,

To all,

Would it actually be possible to trace where in the US Hassan's kris is for instance? And the others'?

I cannot imagine the value of said krisses if provenance can be established!

It's possible but unlikey. You would need strong documented evidence to support a claim of provenance. Most seems to be the word of those who collected the weapon and brought it back. If you had a good clear photo of the weapon with the owner that would go along way to help in tracing it. One of the big problems with Moro weapons is they are not documented. But you are right if provenance can be established the value goes up.

[capt.smash]

Hi some time ago i braught two kris from the USA that claimed to be army bring backs ....they were both heavily coated in Cosmoline witch was a nightmare to remove but gave the "bringback" claim a little authenticity for me.
Of interest was that they both have small typed labels on the scabbards with individuals names"Hadji Ali.Tanbunan,Talayan" and"Jamal. Lambnyao,Tatayam"
I have always wondered if these could have been the names of the original owners[confiscated mabe?] but thaught it was to good to be true.
I will post a couple of pics asap when i find my damn camera cable.

[capt.smash]

Found the fellow.Note the silver bands on the top swords scabbard and silver fittings on the handle are replacements.The stirrups and handles are original just restored[the bottom swords stirrups are iron heat blued].Both handles came with remnants of woven thread rotted by the cosmoline.Both are ongoing projects for me.

[migueldiaz]

It's possible but unlikey. You would need strong documented evidence to support a claim of provenance. Most seems to be the word of those who collected the weapon and brought it back. If you had a good clear photo of the weapon with the owner that would go along way to help in tracing it. One of the big problems with Moro weapons is they are not documented. But you are right if provenance can be established the value goes up.
Thanks for the comments :)