Breech loading 1450-1550

[Matchlock]

From top:

- an extremely rare wrought iron chamber for a small breech loading falconet (Kammerschlange), ca. 1450, length 23 cm, bore ca. 3 cm; yet in my collection, but for sale as I do not collect cannons any longer

- two views of such breech loading cannons: the first in the Historisches Museum Berne, ca. 1460-70, the carriage an early 20th century reconstruction; the second a line drawing from the Maximilianische Zeugbücher, ca. 1500

- a beautiful breech loading matchlock harquebus, dated 1553, made by Peter Peck in Munich

Michael

[Matchlock]

I sold this a few weeks ago:

46 cm long, bore 4 cm, weight 54 kilograms (!) - remember it's just a powder chamber that was closed by a wooden plug. The bullet(s) were shoved in the barrel from the rear before the breech piece was put in and secured by wooden or iron wedges.

It originally belonged to a big breech-loading cannon like the ones found on the Mary Rose of Henry VIII that sank in 1545 - see b/w illustration.

Michael

[Matchlock]

In the Bayerisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt.

Michael

[Pukka Bundook]

Michael,

Please forgive me digging up old posts, but we have had a friend from Scotland staying with us for six weeks, and as time was short, I appear to have missed a lot of interesting topics!

The harquebus by Peter Peck of Munchen must be the Very first bolt-action made! It is amazing, the quality of work, and the very clean action is identical to the modern bolt action. I have not seen anything quite like it for this date.
Gas leakage would have been minimised by such a long chamber, and I think it would be a very effective system.
Could not a number of such "cartridges" be carried, ready primed ?

Thank you for the images!!!!!

Richard.

[Matchlock]

Richard,

No one could be any happier than myself about your shedding new light on one of my older posts (I joined the forum only two months ago).

Actually, the bolt action breech loading system has been employed with wheel-locks at least from 1540.

I attach some images of a combined snap tinder lock and self spanning wheel-lock breech loading harquebus (the snap tinder holder and iron "cartridge" now missing), the barrel bearing the double falchion mark of Christoph Arnold, Augsburg, ca. 1540 (an almost identical piece in the collection of Schloss Grunewald near Berlin bears the same marks together with the date 1540), and a short wheel-lock breech loading harquebus or pistol by the same maker and of identical date. I got allowed to take the photos of the latter in the Imperial Vienna collection 20 years ago. Its exceptionally fine condition strikingly illustrates the original impact of contrasting colored surfaces in those mid 16th century pieces!

You are doubtlessly right in assuming that such a costly and refined system would only have made sense if used together with pre loaded and readily primed interchangeable iron "cartridges". Only in wheel-locks the pan was an integral part of the lock and had to be primed manually prior to each shot.

Interchangeable breech loading with cannon was in use since at least mid 15th century. It took some time to get applied to harquebuses, though.

We know of some very rare breech loading break down action flintlock guns of early to mid 18th century date whose sets of spare cartridges are still contained in a leather collar, each of them equipped with its own frizzen and pan - perfectly ready and primed!
I enclose some views of one rare sample of such a rifle, ca. 1700 but re-stocked in mid 18th century, together with its original cartridge collar containing 11 numbered and rifled (!!!) iron cartridges, with number 12 inserted in the breech. I was granted to take the pictures in the reserve collection of the Princes of Thurn & Taxis, Regensburg/Bavaria, 26 years ago.

In all probability, mid 16th century "cartridge" containers for breech loaders looked very much the same.

Great mind job, buddy - and thanks for inspiring me to post the following attachments!

Btw, how do you like my photo archive?:D

Michael

[Matchlock]

The extremely fine and perfectly preserved Vienna breech loading wheel-lock pistol, like the harquebus posted above made by Simon Arnold, Augsburg, ca. 1540.

[Matchlock]

And the ca. 1700 Thurn & Taxis flintlock rifle, re-stocked in the mid 18 th century, together with its original leather collar containing 11 numbered rifled (!) cartridges - with number 12 inserted in the breech.

Michael

[Pukka Bundook]

Michael,

The piece by Christof Arnold shows Solomon was quite right............" There is nothing new, under the sun..."

It seems this very modern action was used with very little alteration (except putting hinge on other side) by Jacob Snider, to convert muzzleloading P '53 Enfields to breech-loading in 1860's.
Does pushing back on the tunnel sight withdraw a bolt which passes forward into the breech-block?

For some time, I've wanted to make a wheellock mechanism, and a self-spanning one would be very interesting!

Re. the snap tinder lock;
What was the tinder made from?
I know hemp was used when attainable as slow-match, but do not recall hearing what "tinder" was used in the snap-lock.

The pistol you show above, is one of the very best I have ever seen, and the file-work is beautifully executed! a very crisp and stunning example.
On this arm, I can clearly see the bolt which engages the breech-block.

Re. the flint-lock,
What a headache it must have been! ...making each cartridge with exactly the same geometry so each frizzen would spark well! It was a long way ahead of it's time!!

Thank you again for the marvelous pics!!

Richard.

[Matchlock]

Richard,

Tinder was made of fungus growing on the trunks of trees. It was dried, soaked in salpeter and cut in rectangular, rather short pieces, each meant to be used for one shot only. This piece of tinder was put in the small head of the matchholder; with 15th to mid-16th century guns, the heads of their matchholders were actually too tiny to receive the rather thick matchcord.

The tinder was lit by means of a piece of glowing coal or smoldering match.

If I may direct you to

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7077

you will see a piece of tinder in the head of the matchholder of an early 15th century gun.

I have to say that exchanging opinions with you is much fun, thank you for keeping me going.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Richard,

Here are some historical early 15th (the b/w one dated 1411) and early 16th century illustrations showing the use of pieces of tinder in snap locks - and sometimes the thick matchcord employed to light them.

I posted some these before in my thread on the Battle of Pavia, 1525.

In some of the illustrations you can clearly see that the matchholders' heads are way too small to take the thick matchcord wrapped around either the guns or the harquebusiers' arms.

Michael

[Matchlock]

More.

[Matchlock]

One more.

Michael

[Matchlock]

This might also be helpful:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7078

[Pukka Bundook]

Michael,

Thank you for the information re. tinder.
It seems it's the same fungus I use to make tinder for fire-lighting, but treated in a different manner. (When charred, it catches and holds a spark very well.)
The soaking in saltpetre would make it much less brittle, ...must try some!

The pictures you have posted show the small pieces of tinder very well, as well as the rope - sized matchcord!

Thank you for these pictures Michael.

Richard.

[Matchlock]

Hi, Richard,

I sent you an email containing further information. The German guy who sells tinder would also give you his recipe.

If you are interested I would gladly assist you in translation etc.

Best,

Michael

[Gonzalo G]

Matchlock, I just wanted to tell you that I find very interesting and stimulant your threads. I have no real knowledge about this early fireweapons, or about the construction of a crossbow (and I would love to), but I enjoy all this instructive material you manage on the forum. Thank you.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Matchlock]

Thank you, Gonzalo,

It is a great pleasure to me to learn that you like my threads.

That will keep me going.

Thanks again,

Michael

[broadaxe]

very interesting thread, thank you. I especialy liked the gun & bandoleer combo on #7.

Here is my contribution to the subject: a breech loading swivel cannon, found in very shallow waters off the coast of Israel, south to the city of Haifa, north to Caserea Maritima. Probably a relic from slave/pirate galley, as at that time - 15th century, there was very little buisness for merchant vessels to do there. Interestingly enough, found with the breech, swivel and breech-locking bar. The barrel used to be 30% longer but only the front rings survived (not shown). It is on display in the National Maritime Museum in Haifa. I will be able to bring measurements sometimes later.

[Matchlock]

Very nice 15th century naval breech loading cannon indeed - thank you, broadaxe!

Michael

[fernando]

Michael, you have a PM.
Fernando

[fernando]

You got new PM, Michael.
Fernando

[Matchlock]

At the Tower of London.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Only these b/w photos available, taken as early as 1883 .

Michael

[Matchlock]

From Kisak's great thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9653

Thanks a lot, Kisak!
Michael

[Matchlock]

15th century breeches and cannon at the Tojhusmuseet Copenhagen.

Michael

[fernando]

Amazing; at first glimpse i thought this was the Military Museum in Lisbon.
By the way, have you ever been there, Michael ... or anybody else?
Fernando

[Matchlock]

Hi Fernando,

Sadly I've never been to either Portugal or Spain.

Michael

[broadaxe]

Lately I was lucky enough to find an old b&w photo of the very same cannon on post #18; on the day it was found (1978) with the underwater debris intact.

[Matchlock]

Hi broadaxe,

Thanks for that perfectly documentary contribution!

Michael

[Matchlock]

Two multistage barrel breech loading pieces in a ca. 1480 woodcut from a chronicle of Flanders, printed 1531.

Note the guy kneeling in the fore ground hammering a wooden plug into a breech. The interchangeable breeches contained only the powder while the ball was shoved separately into the rear of the barrel.

Michael

[fernando]

Hi Michael,

I risk being asking the obvious, or having negleted some of the 'lectures' you already have posted, so forgive me for asking you now the folowing:

1 - Were breech chamber locking bars allways made of iron, or were some other times of wood?

2 - Were chambers allways only loaded with gunpowder, or were they some times loaded also with the projectile?

Sorry for my ignorance :o .

Fernando

[Matchlock]

I had almost forgotten about these. I photographed them in a North German private collection some 20 years ago. There was a fragment of a breech loading cannon with the muzzle section missing, and two belonging breeches, all salvaged from sea. The guy would not deaccession of them.

The sensation about them was that both breeches still contained their original black powder loads plugged by wooden stops! I have never seen anything like that in any museum! (They might have some at the Mary Rose Museum but not to my knowledge). Both their strap handles were missing save small fragments.

Enjoy!

Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Fernando,

There is no need to worry, sometimes I cannot remember myself what I posted before or not. :D :( :eek:

1. I know of no surviving locking bars for breeches but think that they may have been of either iron or wood.

2. I cannot tell for sure but when relying on the two actually surviving objects I have posted today I think that we may assume that the breech contained only the powder charge and a wooden plug.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Hi Michael,
Thank you so much :)


1. I know of no surviving locking bars for breeches ....

Even taking into account Brodaxe's post #18 in this thread? :confused:

Fernando

[Matchlock]

Especially taking broadaxe's documentation into consideration, Fernando.

As e.g. your postings have taught me almost anything must be granted to be a possible solution (remember the wooden hooks on haquenuts?) :cool: ;) Iron wedges would of course have been more stable and thus more probable.

Michael

[Spiridonov]

Two 15 century breach-loading guns from museum of artillery in Saint-Petersberg

[Spiridonov]

-

[fernando]

Excelent examples, Sipiridonov.
Thanks for bringing them up here.
Eventually i have recently read that chamber locks were also made of wood.
Fernando



.

[Spiridonov]

--

[fernando]

Outstanding pictures of outstanding weapons.
Fernando

[Matchlock]

Thank you so much, Spiridonov,

Your photos are an actual enrichment!

Best,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

museum of artillery. Saint-Petersberg

[Spiridonov]

else

[Spiridonov]

I think that it is about 1530 year

[Matchlock]

Hi Spiridonov,

Judging by the shape of the buttstock, the decoration of the rear end of the barrel, the shape of the lockplate and the match holder, this is a late haquebut of ca. 1580. I cannnot properly read the date on the barrel but it should be from that period. 1420 is as impossible as 1530.

It would be great if you could get there and try to take a better picture of the date, or of the description which really should mention the date.:)

Best,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

It is clear to see 1420 but i think that it is not date.

[Matchlock]

It is definitely a date but definitely not 1420; maybe some cyphers are misstruck.

Best,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

It is definitely a date but definitely not 1420; maybe some cyphers are misstruck.

Best,
Michael
No - cyphers looks very clear but i will make a new phto specially for you :) It was made by mobile phone. nex will be maket by camera :)

[Matchlock]

Sadly not in my collection ...

The barrel and one (of originally a set) retained interchangeable breech cast of brass or bronze, the tiller stock a modern replacement. The Late Gothic style with its characteristically chamfered edges suggests a date of late 15th century, the gun may have been cast in a Nuremberg foundry.

The breech was designed to recieve only the measure of powder and a plug while the ball was put in the barrel from the rear before inserting the breech. Originally the breech was fitted with a priming pan and cover which are now missing. The swiveling block at the rear end of the barrel acts as a loading gate.

Length of the barrel including tiller socket: 55 cm
Barrrel length: 46.2 cm
Bore: 12 mm
Weight without stock: 1.85 kg

A 500 year old rapid firing high tech engineering piece!

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Sold at Hermann Historica, Munich, on October 5, 2009, hammer price 1,350 euro.

In excavated but perfectly preserved condition, originally forming part of a set of interchangeable breeches for a light rapid firing arquebus like the one presented in the previous post.

The tiny touch hole features a small pan like moulding. We may safely assume that the hook shaped staged lug on the underside drilled in the middle was scheduled to receive a horizontal blocking pin when inserted in the rear end of the gun ready to fire.

Overall length 13 cm, bore 12 mm

This, together with the one discussed previously, are the only two items of their kind that are known to me.

Best,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

Michael, thank you! Its AMAZING!
Looks like hangonne from trattato of Ghiberti Lorenzo http://www.bncf.firenze.sbn.it/oldWeb/Bib_digitale/Manoscritti/b.228/main.htm

http://www.bncf.firenze.sbn.it/oldWeb/Bib_digitale/Manoscritti/index.html

[Matchlock]

Hi Alexander, and welcome back!

Thank you so much for posting this highly important drawing, you did a tremendous work! :cool: :)

I must admit that I did not know the manuscripts of Lorenzo Ghiberti, so - wow!

Most interesting is the fact that Ghiberti died in 1455 at the age of 70. As the breech loading gun he illustrated is almost identical in all its features to the actual piece that I posted here this could mean that the gun is even older than I thought it was and it should be probably dated at least as early as the 1450's!
I am also fascinated to see what the original tiller stock looked like and that not all of them were just plain sticks.

For easier comparison I repost the images of the gun together with Ghiberti's drawings and would be grateful for any incoming comment.

I also attach a portrait of the artist Ghiberti.

Alexander, thank you again for adding valuable material to our discussions once more!

Best wishes go to Russia from Bavaria,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

Hi Spiridonov,
It would be great if you could get there and try to take a better picture of the date, or of the description which really should mention the date.:)

I have made this :)
1/ cifirs on the barrel
2/ mark on the lockplate
3/ mark on the barrel
4/ mark on the barrel

[Matchlock]

Hi Spiridonov,

Judging by the shape of the buttstock, the decoration of the rear end of the barrel, the shape of the lockplate and the match holder, this is a late haquebut of ca. 1580. I cannnot properly read the date on the barrel but it should be from that period. 1420 is as impossible as 1530.

It would be great if you could get there and try to take a better picture of the date, or of the description which really should mention the date.:)

Best,
Michael




Hi Alexander,

Thank you so much for remembering our old discussion of the doubtful date ‘1420’ on a matchlock harquebus and my request of better images.

I stated that the overall style of the gun suggested a time of origin in the 1580’s but could possibly be as late as the 1620’s. The date on the barrel which read ‘1420’ was obviously a total mismatch.

Thanks to your actual images the riddle is now ready to solve and it turns out to be a real bombshell. :eek:

The maker’s mark ‘HW above a hunting horn’ that you photographed on both the barrel and lock plate show that both main iron parts were made at the same workshop. Some variants of this mark are known to be found, together with the proof mark of the town of Suhl, Thuringia, on both barrels and lock plates of matchlock and wheel-lock long guns between the 1580s and the 1630’s which are preserved in various collections, among them the Graz armory. I attach a scan from the Støckel encyclopedia of marks of makers of firearms and cranequins.

Your consent granted, I have reworked some of your imaged a bit to make them clearer.

I am quite sure that a closer inspection would discover an additional Suhl mark (SVL either together with or without a hen symbol) somewhere in the rear sections of either the barrel or the lock plate on this gun, too.

Telling from the chiseled decoration on the raised frieze at the rear end of the barrel, a dating into the 1580’s to 1590’s would be typical. Attached please see details of an almost identical frieze on the barrel of a combined wheel-lock and matchlock musket dated 1583. This is backed up by the significant shape of the pan, the grip of the pan cover and the form of the lock plate with its crescent shaped upper end at the front.

From what I have been trying to deduct we should by now expect the date on the barrel to read somewhat between the 1580’s and the 1600’s. And a date indeed it is as the decorative points between the cyphers indicate. For a number of reasons the style of the cyphers could not be correct, no way. As I cannot repost numerous dates from the 1500’s to the 1600’s here those who wish to do further research are requested to check my earlier threads. To cut a long story short: all the cyphers have been overstruck at some later date to suggest the sensationally early date of origin of 1420. This can only have been done in a fraudulent intention, perhaps while the item was in private hands some time during its long history. Not the form of one single numeral is correct, neither for 1420 nor for any period before the 19th or 20th century - which gives us a close hint to when that spurious date was struck over a correct older date which probably read 1620.

What else can be said? The barrel has been considerably shortened by about two thirds of its original length, so the impression that the piece conveys today is far from being congruent with what it looked like 400 years ago.

And: All items, whether preserved in museums or not, should be examined very closely in order to discover alterations or even (part) fakes.

Fascinating outcome, isn’t it? ;)

Thank you so much again, Alexander, we keep looking forward to more exciting discussions! :)

Best wishes,
Michael

[bluelake]

Very interesting thread. Korea had very similar breech loaders, made of bronze, called bulangipo, which were used from the 15th century up into the late 19th century. They came in a variety of sizes.

The pictures here were taken at the Korean Army Museum at the Korea Military Academy.

[Spiridonov]

When I was looked at "A Unique South German Breech Loading Arquebus, ca. 1470-1500" I was confused by one interesring detail. The part of the shape wich in red ring looks too futuristic for Ghiberti Lorenzo death-date. It is similar with element of shape of arquebuses from Zeugbuch Kaiser Maximilians I (1502).
Else one interesting detail - It seems that earlier here there was a lever for opening which has been lost later

[Matchlock]

Very keen observations, Alexander! :) :cool:

Best wishes,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

What do you thing about dating of this barrel? Maby the notebook of Ghiberti Lorenzo was added later by another author?

[Matchlock]

What do you thing about dating of this barrel? Maby the notebook of Ghiberti Lorenzo was added later by another author?

Hi Alexander,

As I have tried to point out occasionally in former threads, any substantial dating of an object of arts and crafts should not be confined to only one criterion but should instead be based on as many criteria as possible, the latest (= 'youngest') of which would then denote ideally the correct date.

The figured and moulded staging which you rightly observed on the stocks of the Maximilian arquebuses in Jörg Kölderer's watercolors of the Maximilian Armories (generally dated to ca. 1507) is actually a very common Late Gothic ornament found on many objects from the 14th throughout the 18th century, comprising such different fields as architectural columns, bronze mortars, furniture, book bindings, etc. It is, of course, also found on various kinds of weapons. What I want to say is: the simple presence of this widely used decorative element alone does not account for any close dating of this object.

In the case of the breech loading arquebus other features like the staging and characteristic muzzle section of the barrel and the overall impression it conveys show in their synopsis that this is clearly a product of the second half of the 15th century and can most probably be narrowed down to ca. 1470, +/- ca. 10 years.

Best, ;)
Michael

[Zwielicht]

Matchlock,

Thank you for a photos of breech loading harquebus in the post #5 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=72625&postcount=5)!

But one thing I cannot understand from those photos - where was the hole in the cartridge, through which it's powder charge was ignited, and was the bullet put in the cartridge or right to the barrel before it?

Also, what are the dimensions of this a weapon (at least the basics - length, weight, caliber etc.)

[Matchlock]

Hi Lee,

Thank you so much for deleting those posts containing erraneous thoughts that were not mine! ;) You sure did a great job.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Zwielicht,

The touchhole is on the right hand side of the cartrigde so that its position is within the pan where the ignition takes place, just like on any 'normal' barrel.

As I tried to point out in my thread, for as far as we know from similar 'cartridges' or exchangeable breeches preserved still loaded (I posted one specimen here), we can tell that these insertable devices only contained the powder measure and plug, while the ball was separately shoved into the rear opening of the barrel before inserting and closing the breech shut.

The measurements of the Passau arquebus are:

overall length 107 cm
barrel length 78.9 cm
length of lockplate 35 cm
caliber 1.5 cm
cartridge: length 7.8 cm, outer diameter 2 cm

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Author's photos taken in the Hofrüstkammer Vienna.

[Swordfish]

Hi Zwielicht,

The touchhole is on the right hand side of the cartrigde so that its position is within the pan where the ignition takes place, just like on any 'normal' barrel.

As I tried to point out in my thread, for as far as we know from similar 'cartridges' or exchangeable breeches preserved still loaded (I posted one specimen here), we can tell that these insertable devices only contained the powder measure and plug, while the ball was separately shoved into the rear opening of the barrel before inserting and closing the breech shut.

The measurements of the Passau arquebus are:

overall length 107 cm
barrel length 78.9 cm
length of lockplate 35 cm
caliber 1.5 cm
cartridge: length 7.8 cm, outer diameter 2 cm

Best,
Michael

Hallo,

The chambers or cartidges of breech loading handguns were not loded with powder and plug. The attached photo is taken from an article of Zeitschrift für Historische Waffen und Kostümkunde (Volume 9 of 1922, No.4), a standard work on arms and armour, which should be familiar to any who can read German. The photo shows two chambers of breech loading handguns of the 15th Century in the collection of the Berlin armoury. Both chambers contain the original charge of powder and lead bullet. This is a clear indication that at least chambers of small bore were loaded with a lead bullet, and the bullet was not pushed awkward in the rear of the barrel before inserting the chamber.

Best wishes

Susi

[Matchlock]

Hi Susi and welcome here, :)

Thank you for your interesting input from the Zeitschrift für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde. I have been a member of their society for 30 years and own all their volumes from 1897 thru 2010.

First, these are by no means exchangebale breeches for 'handguns' but for cannon! Portable handguns of the 15th century had small bores of ca. 12-16 mm and their breech chamber never had handles; they had no grips at all and and an overall length of only ca. 6-8 cm. Please cf. the measurements of the 1540 Passau arquebus breech chamber you cited!

Second, these seem to be exceptions to the rule. For these unregulated ages, almost anything was possible in general. As I noted though earlier in this thread, we know of other loaded breech loading cannon chambers only containing powder and wooden plug, and attached I repost my own photos of one of them. The rest of the original handle can bee seen.
Similar ones were found on the wreck of the Mary Rose, sunken in 1545, also just loaded with powder and plug.

'Nando, my dear friend, would you mind posting good images and measurements of your ca. 1440 fine cannon chamber as this is almost identical to the ones preserved in Berlin? :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

There you are :)
Bore about 30 mm.
Length 230 mm.
Width at base: 65 mm.
Weight: 3,135 Kg.

.. The wooden set up picture is a bonus ;)

.

[Matchlock]

Thank you, 'Nando, ;)

And congratulations!

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

Another argument for my theory that breechloading cannon chambers did not normally contain the ball:

As we can see, most of them taper and narrow towards the fore end, in order to be shoved into the barrel and tightly fit. So I think that, had they contained to ball, the latter would have been of too small caliber to match the barrel. :)

Any comments much welcome!

Best,
Michael

[Swordfish]

There you are :)
Bore about 30 mm.
Length 230 mm.
Width at base: 65 mm.
Weight: 3,135 Kg.

.. The wooden set up picture is a bonus ;)

.


Hallo,

it doesn`t matter if these are chambers of small cannons, the
interesting fact is that they were loaded with a bullet. If even
chambers of cannons were loaded in this way, surely the
chambers of small handguns, where the chamber and barrel
have exactly the same bore, were loaded with a bullet.

Best wishes

[Matchlock]

Sorry,

Do you completely ignore the evidence photos I posted? :confused:

m

[Swordfish]

Sorry,

Do you completely ignore the evidence photos I posted? :confused:

m

I have never expressed any doubt that chambers of cannons were
loaded with a plug. I refer always to chambers of handguns.
Confused ?

[Matchlock]

Oh yes, I definitely am.

Any evidence produced?

And why, in your opinion, should breech loading of handguns differ from cannon?

m

[Matchlock]

Swordfish,

Are you there?! :)

m

[Spiridonov]

Does anybody have photos of these breech-loading handgonne?
http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/lautmann_1450.JPG
"breech loading handgonne, chamber missing, late 1400's. length 1,460 mm, cal 18 mm "
from
http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm

[fernando]

Hi Alexander.
Is this the same thing?
This is included in a PDF document with 186 pages, that i can send you by e-mail, if you are interested.

.

[Spiridonov]

Thank you, Fernando!
his is included in a PDF document with 186 pages, that i can send you by e-mail, if you are interested.
Yes, I am interesting in... My e-mail is Spiridonov12@yandex.ru

[fernando]

Hi Alexander,
I didn't realize the file was so heavy and not possible to send by regular email.
So i have sent it through a special email system. I hope it reaches you any time from now. When you get it please confirm that you can open the file.

[Matchlock]

Is this the same thing?
.

No, 'Nando,

It's another but very similiar item, and your scans are great, thank you so much! :)

I attach a better image of the gun Alexender meant.

Best,
Michl

[Spiridonov]

Hi Alexander,
I didn't realize the file was so heavy and not possible to send by regular email.
So i have sent it through a special email system. I hope it reaches you any time from now. When you get it please confirm that you can open the file.
Thank you. I have got it . Thanks for Michael too
:)

[fernando]

... and your scans are great, thank you so much! :) ...

Have you got the article were tey came from, Michl ?

[Matchlock]

No, 'Nando,

I don't.

So please try and mail me the document as well.

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

On its way, Michl.
Hope it works.


DONE !
Please confirm when you get it.


.

[Spiridonov]

Michael, I can dowload it at my FTP if you need...

[Matchlock]

Thank you so much, 'Nando, :)

I received it.

Had you told me that is was all about a series of articles in the ZWHK, I could have spared you a lot of time because I got all the original volumes and have been a member of the society for more than 30 years.

Thank you as much, Alexender, :) for your kind offer!

Some select assessments and termination in these articles by now have become obsolete.

Best,
Michl

[Spiridonov]

We may see the thickening in the form of balls on these stock. It is a very common element of staffs in XV century.

[Spiridonov]

else

[Matchlock]

Perfectly right, Alexander, :)

Your input clearly confirms the theory I formlerly posted stating that all contemporary works of arts and crafts unanimously reflected the style common to the respective period - in short: Gothic gun barrels generally looked like contemporary architectural towers and columns!

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A wrought-iron breech-loading ship cannon, ca. 1480-1500.

m

[Matchlock]

Two Portuguese bronze breech-loading cannon pieces, early 16th c. each, and obviously two from a series.

m

[VANDOO]

HERE ARE A FEW MORE PICTURES, HOPEFULLY NOT POSTED ALREADY., TWO PICTURES OF A OLD PRINT. AND DRAWING SHOWING LOAD FOR GUN.

[Matchlock]

Hi Vandoo,

Thank you so much for this period artwork. Although the illustration posted by you is from the 18th c. it shows that the breech-loading guns of the time were only barely more evolved compared to those of 300 years ago. :)

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Two Portuguese bronze breech-loading cannon pieces, early 16th c. each, and obviously two from a series.

m

Sure they are Portuguese, Michl ?
I have found that the attribution of Portuguese'ship to some types of bronze canonry must be an added value, judging by how they baptize numberless examples in Commercial websites :o :shrug:

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

I just adopted the assignment given by the auction house; of course I am not certain about their actual provenance. Your input is all the more valuable in this context. ;)
Anyway, my opinion, though usually as well based as possible and backed up by more than 30 years of experience, is far from claiming to be a rule. I realize there are people out there who are able to add amendments. I only wish they would do that after all! All I've been hoping for when starting this has been a lively discussion! :cool:

Still hoping for the best,
Michl :)

[broadaxe]

Regarding the staff in Spiridonov's posts # 85-86: cannons may well reflect architecture of the period, but the staff - a.k.a. "pilgrim's staff" - is actually a weapon of its own with the ball forming a pommel and a handgaurd. The size is about the same as two-handed sword and deployment is a simplified version of fencing (no edge alignment, no trapping with the guard).

Attached is another publication photo from 1978 of a different breech loader from the coast of Israel, bronze barrel with iron breech. The second photo shows the same cannon today (bottom), with another one made of iron.

[Matchlock]

Thanks a lot for this interesting addition!

Best,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

Hi all. I want to present you a painting of spanish artist Bartolomé Bermejo "Resurrection and the Descent of Christ" (about 1475). This picture is unique because we can see very rare case for XV century when firearms is presented on a religious theme painting. We can usually see the firearms on miniatures of chronics, technical books or arsenal inventors but not on religious story picture except of rare cases. But the main feature of this work of art is fact that hangonne held by the demon is breech loading! The barrel is similar to barrels of big breech loading guns of XV century with the typical replaceable powder chamber but much smaller than these. We can even see the breech handle.
I've taken the picture from flickr album of Andrea Carloni
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_carloni/7386729166/in/photostream/
p/s
Thanks to my ukrainian friend (Глеб Борисов/Gleb Borisov) who found this picture

[fernando]

Superb pictures, Alexander; thanks a lot for sharing them.
Say thanks to Глеб for bringing them to you.
If you don't mind, i will post a close up of the soldiers with the edged weapons, which are also intereting ... but not so much as the handgonne :cool:

.

[broadaxe]

Same kind of gun, real life, full size. Original cart & fittings, Schwarzenberg castle, Prague.

[Marcus den toom]

Bolek Maciaszczyk is making this very neat and rare self spanning wheel lock.
It is most likely the first of its kind with a ton of research, tweaking and days without sleep.
The first film about this lock is finnaly here :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cchjjwXuVdQ

you can find the barrel here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FajYgHQI8aA

Bolek thanks everyone that has helped him with his research and the comments. :)

(Bolek forgot his pasword so i am posting this on his behalf)

[Marcus den toom]

The lock working, made by Bolek Maciaszczyk!!!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search.php?

The system works perfect, it is strong and makes a lot of sparks and guarentees to set of your main charge with eas

[Marcus den toom]

(wrong link in previous post)

The lock working, made by Bolek Maciaszczyk!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtlYaFWlUAE&feature=c4-overview&list=UUzoxW2OCcpGjs_VuLPYLRkg

The system works perfect, it is strong and makes a lot of sparks and guarentees to set of your main charge with eas

[fernando]

Outstanding, Marcus; thanks for sharing.

[dana_w]

Very impressive Marcus. Thanks for posting.

[Marcus den toom]

A few updates on this pistol made by Bolek (i am only the buyer, haha)

http://i42.tinypic.com/scfhjr.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/2rp2w4n.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/mhx8yf.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/2uonar6.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/1zqx2x2.jpg

[Marcus den toom]

http://i42.tinypic.com/29cqloo.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/2je31om.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2hx7tbt.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/w9jqkm.jpg

[Marcus den toom]

Yesterday i bought this nice artifact from the sea of cortez. It is a 16th century powder chamber for a breechloading cannon :)
And yes i kknow it looks like a pile of rust, but this actually pretty nice :P.

The chamber measures 8 inch (20 cm), looks like a 2,5inch caliber, but i have to verify this when it arrives at my home.

http://i42.tinypic.com/30uz9mf.png

[fernando]

A very significant piece for collectors of this area, Marcus.
You should have started a new thread with it :cool: .
And by the way, if you feel unsatisfied when it arrives, let me know and we go on business ;)

[Marcus den toom]

The Project Bolek (raspla) is doing for me is almost at a end.
Here are some pictures on his amazing work.

http://i40.tinypic.com/2rxfos8.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/24w53r4.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/10d9ro7.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/2iapk7d.jpg

[Marcus den toom]

http://i42.tinypic.com/1z5t9pc.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2w7g2mp.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/23k3mg2.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2s653pv.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/2vsmarq.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/2qvb1pc.jpg

[fernando]

Moi :cool:

[Marcus den toom]

The pistol is complete, maybe today also a movie while shooting the gun.

Greetings from Bolek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6tekvebpz0

[Marcus den toom]

the film where we shoot :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_13RVcUIvEg

[Marcus den toom]

blanck, srry :P

[fernando]

I don't think you can propose item sales in the discussion forum, Marcus :o .
Have you read the rules ?

[Matchlock]

Both thhese arquebuses, just like the combined wheellock and snap-matchlock Passau arquebus shown in post #5 and and the Vienna wheellock pistol illustrated in post #6, bear the maker's mark of Christoph Arnold of Augsburg, Bavaria, Germany, on the breech.
Both have self-spanning locks as well!

They are stunning pieces of 500 year-old high tech!!!

Please note the sickle-shaped dog spring running around the wheel!

This falchion mark (Stockel #a 5812) is illustrated below. In most cases, Christoph Arnold struck it twice on the barrels of his guns.

The first arquebus is preserved in unusually fine original and near mint condition; its surface colors with the striking dark blue and the bright polished acanthus leave friezes in between, contrasting with the light brown color of the pearwood full stock decorated with dark Early-Renaissance loops and tulips or hops (German Hopfendolden), demonstrate how overwhelming the impact of Early Renaissance coloring on 500 year-old weapons actually was!
On breech-loading guns (système à la tabatière), the spring-loaded breech section normally opens by pulling back the rear sight allowing one of a number of iron cartridges once held ready for fast exchange to be inserted. On this piece by Chistoph Arnold, however, the breech snaps open by pulling back a spur-like device at the rear, much like the spur of a percussion hammer!
Another special feature of Christoph Arnold's locks is that their pan covers slide manually instead of shutting by a spring-loaded relase button!

The self-spanning mechanism is acivated by pressing a little clamp at the base (foot) of the dog which, in this unique instance, then actually acts as a cock and spans the wheel via a long chain consisting of a lot of riveted liinks - please see images of the inside of the lock in post #5!


The cleaning rod (in this case it was not a ramrod!) is now missing; it would have been of wood, most probably ash, and equiped with a tubular iron finial threaded for a scourer. Also a wood screw is missing from the rear end of the trigger guard.
A small piece of wood has been replaced below the dog.

This arquebus is preserved in the Jagdmuseum (hunting castle) Grunewald near Berlin, inv.no. AD.9078.
Overall length 117.8 cm, barrel 84.3 cm, caliber 14 mm smoothbore.[I]


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

[QUOTE=Marcus den toom]The Project Bolek (raspla) is doing for me is almost at a end.


Hi Marcus,

As Jim and others have remarked various times, this forum should priorily be reserved to historic and authentic original pieces.

I am familiar with Bolek's works, to start out. Although his craft is technically amazing, he sometimes seems to lack the utmost depth of understanding when it comes down to the action of the guns, especially in the case of the ca. 1525 snap-tinderlock arquebus he reproduced after my images posted here: I am sorry to say that he did not fully grasp how the mechanism really works. :confused:
Apart from that, the proportions and decoration of most of his makes are not quite consistent with the original pieces; I realize that sadly he does not take exact measurements of all parts of the originals he rebuilds.

What is even worse in terms of purity and science: the gun shown here is a complete fantasy piece; he only used some influences and features of an existing ca. 1530-35 wheellock mechanism! The shape and style of decoration of the stock is mere fantasy as well, with some similarities to original pieces of ca. 1600 (!) at best, so what he did was producing a crude and cruel mixture of styles combining a span of ca. 70 years in one piece and filling in the gaps with a lot of imagination ... :mad: No such original gun did ever exist, and I do do not feel very pleased to see those confusing images in my thread that is on pure originals!

So once again:
Please do stick to originals or do copy them absolutely exactly! ;)

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Both, just like the combined wheellock and snap-matchlock Passau arquebus shown in post #5 and and the Vienna wheellock pistol illustrated in post #6, bear the maker's mark of Christoph Arnold of Augsburg, Bavaria, Germany, on the breech.

Both have self-spanning mechanisms as well!


They are stunning pieces of 500 year-old high tech!!!

Please note the sickle-shaped dog sprimg running around the wheel!

This falchion mark (Stockel #a 5812) is illustrated below. In most cases, Christoph Arnold struck it twice on the barrels of his guns.

The first arquebus is preserved in unusually fine original and near mint condition; its surface colors with the striking dark blue and the bright polished acanthus leave friezes in between, contrasting with the light brown color of the pearwood full stock decorated with dark Early-Renaissance loops and tulips or hops (German Hopfendolden), demonstrate how overwhelming the impact of Early Renaissance coloring on 500 year-old weapons actually was!
On breech-loading guns, the spring-loaded breech section normally opens by pulling back the rear sight allowing one of a number of iron cartridges once held ready for fast exchange to be inserted (système à la tabatière). On this piece by Chistoph Arnold, however, the breech snaps open by pulling back a spur-like device at the rear, much like the spur of a percussion hammer!
Another special feature of Christoph Arnold's locks is that their pan covers slide manually instead of shutting by a spring-loaded relase button!

The self-spanning mechanism is acivated by pressing a little clamp at the base (foot) of the dog which, in this unique instance, then actually acts as a cock and spans the wheel via a long chain consisting of a lot of riveted liinks - please see images of the inside of the lock in post #5!


The cleaning rod (in this case it was not a ramrod!) is now missing; it would have been of wood, most probably ash, and equiped with a tubular iron finial threaded for a scourer. Also, a wood screw is missing from the rear end of the trigger guard.
A small piece of wood has been replaced below the dog.

This arquebus is preserved in the Jagdmuseum (hunting castle) Grunewald near Berlin, inv.no. AD.9078.
Overall length 117.8 cm, barrel 84.3 cm, caliber 14 mm smoothbore.
.

[Matchlock]

Both these arquebuses, just like the combined wheellock and snap-matchlock Passau arquebus shown in post #5 and and the Vienna wheellock pistol illustrated in post #6, bear the maker's mark of Christoph Arnold of Augsburg, Bavaria, Germany, on the breech.
Both have self-spanning locks as well!

They are stunning pieces of 500 year-old high tech!!!

Please note the sickle-shaped dog spring running around the wheel!

This falchion mark (Stockel #a 5812) is illustrated below. In most cases, Christoph Arnold struck it twice on the barrels of his guns.

This second arquebus is preserved in much less fine original condition but the iron parts show a nice old yellowish dried-oil surface, and together with what might be traces of the original bluing/case-hardening color, plus some fine greenish grease resulting from the chemical influence of the copper-soldered iron parts seen on the inside of the open breech, and the patina of the stock, they all add up to a very charming impression of a virtually 'untouched' piece, a sleeper.
The stock of this piece is painted black, which is not necessarily its original color.
On breech-loading guns (système à la tabatière), the spring-loaded breech section normally opens by pulling back the rear sight allowing one of a number of iron cartridges once held ready for fast exchange to be inserted. On this piece by Chistoph Arnold, as on his other breech-loading guns, however, the breech snaps open by pulling back a spur-like device at the rear, much like the spur of a percussion hammer!
Another special feature of Christoph Arnold's locks is that their pan covers slide manually instead of shutting by a spring-loaded relase button!

The dog for the pyrites is missing from this gun, and we cannot see the inside lock mechanism, but we may assume with sufficient certainty that it, too, originally employed a self-spanning action.
The self-spanning mechanism is acivated by pressing a little clamp at the base (foot) of the dog which, in this unique instance, then actually acts as a cock and spans the wheel via a long chain consisting of a lot of riveted liinks - please see images of the inside of the lock in post #5!


The iron cartridge is missing from the breech. The cleaning rod (in this case it was not a ramrod!) is now missing, too; it would have been of wood, most probably ash, and equiped with a tubular iron finial threaded for a scourer. Also a part of the swiveling safety catch is missing on the rear left-hand side of the lock plate, as well as the originally dove-tailed backsight of the barrel.


This arquebus is preserved in the Rotunda Museum of Royal Artillery, Woolwich, Great Britain.
May I ask the curators of the Rotunda to be kind enough to take out the lock from the stock and take good images from various angles of its inside mechanism? I would then gratefully comment on the gun with greater authority.



Overall length ca. 118 cm, barrel ca. 84 cm, caliber ca. 14 mm smoothbore.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Both these arquebuses, just like the combined wheellock and snap-matchlock Passau arquebus shown in post #5 and and the Vienna wheellock pistol illustrated in post #6, bear the maker's mark of Christoph Arnold of Augsburg, Bavaria, Germany, on the breech.
Both have self-spanning locks as well!

They are stunning pieces of 500 year-old high tech!!!

Please note the sickle-shaped dog spring running around the wheel!

This falchion mark (Stockel #a 5812) is illustrated below. In most cases, Christoph Arnold struck it twice on the barrels of his guns.

This second arquebus is preserved in much less fine original condition but the iron parts show a nice old yellowish dried-oil surface, and together with what might be traces of the original bluing/case-hardening color, plus some fine greenish grease resulting from the chemical influence of the copper-soldered iron parts seen on the inside of the open breech, and the patina of the stock, they all add up to a very charming impression of a virtually 'untouched' piece, a sleeper.
The stock of this piece is painted black, which is not necessarily its original color.
On breech-loading guns (système à la tabatière), the spring-loaded breech section normally opens by pulling back the rear sight allowing one of a number of iron cartridges once held ready for fast exchange to be inserted. On this piece by Chistoph Arnold, as on his other breech-loading guns, however, the breech snaps open by pulling back a spur-like device at the rear, much like the spur of a percussion hammer!
Another special feature of Christoph Arnold's locks is that their pan covers slide manually instead of shutting by a spring-loaded relase button!

The dog for the pyrites is missing from this gun, and we cannot see the inside lock mechanism, but we may assume with sufficient certainty that it, too, originally employed a self-spanning action.
The self-spanning mechanism is acivated by pressing a little clamp at the base (foot) of the dog which, in this unique instance, then actually acts as a cock and spans the wheel via a long chain consisting of a lot of riveted liinks - please see images of the inside of the lock in post #5!


The iron cartridge is missing from the breech. The cleaning rod (in this case it was not a ramrod!) is now missing, too; it would have been of wood, most probably ash, and equiped with a tubular iron finial threaded for a scourer. Also a part of the swiveling safety catch is missing on the rear left-hand side of the lock plate, as well as the originally dove-tailed backsight of the barrel.


This arquebus is preserved in the Rotunda Museum of Royal Artillery, Woolwich, Great Britain.
May I ask the curators of the Rotunda to be kind enough to take out the lock from the stock and take good images from various angles of its inside mechanism? I would then gratefully comment on the gun with greater authority.



Overall length ca. 118 cm, barrel ca. 84 cm, caliber ca. 14 mm smoothbore.


Best,
Michael
Attached Images

[Matchlock]

Finally here is the link to the video.


The section on the 1540 wheellock starts ca. 14 seconds after the beginning of the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSyxpvIZXxY

That guy, Iain, is stating a few things that are incorrect.
E.g., he actually touches the wheel, encircling it and at the same saying that it is missing - which of course is complete rubbish!


I thought the Rotunda had personnel that at least knew what they were talking about ...


Best,
Michael

[CutlassCollector]

Hi Marcus,

As Jim and others have remarked various times, this forum should priorily be reserved to historic and authentic original pieces.

What is even worse in terms of purity and science: the gun shown here is a complete fantasy piece; he only used some influences and features of an existing ca. 1530-35 wheellock mechanism! The shape and style of decoration of the stock is mere fantasy as well, with some similarities to original pieces of ca. 1600 (!) at best, so what he did was producing a crude and cruel mixture of styles combining a span of ca. 70 years in one piece and filling in the gaps with a lot of imagination ... :mad: No such original gun did ever exist, and I do do not feel very pleased to see those confusing images in my thread that is on pure originals!

So once again:
Please do stick to originals or do copy them absolutely exactly! ;)

Best,
Michael[/QUOTE]


Hi all,

This is not my area of expertise so please correct me if I'm wrong.
But it looks to me as though this 'fantasy piece' is an 'absolute exact' copy of a wheelock being sold as an antique on a website in the UK! I won't put the direct link as it contains the price but it can be found under:
Antique Guns at gunstar.co.uk.

Regards,
CC

[Raf]

Or as as a coleague remarked does it come with a silencer ?

[Matchlock]

Gunstar is not saying the item is old or original, they just labeled it 'used' (!!!) which makes all the difference! :rolleyes:

Best,
m

[CutlassCollector]

Gunstar is not saying the item is old or original, they just labeled it 'used' (!!!) which makes all the difference! :rolleyes:

Best,
m

A bit further down it says Antique and along side it - Yes.

It is listed in the Antiques section - so buyer beware I guess.
I don't know about anyone else but if I was buying an antique cutlass I'd be a little upset to find it had been made last week!

CC

[Matchlock]

A bit further down it says Antique and along side it - Yes.

It is listed in the Antiques section - so buyer beware I guess.
I don't know about anyone else but if I was buying an antique cutlass I'd be a little upset to find it had been made last week!

CC



Absolutely: buyer beware!

Thanks anyway,
and best,
Michael

[Marcus den toom]

I apologise for this mistake, i usually only sell antiques so i probably put this pistol in antique by mistake :(

I was a bit upset after your words Michael, but i do understand your point. I must admit that the decorations have gone a bit out of control, my first drawing was that of a saxony pistol, similair to those used by the electoral guards of augustus the first etc. Bolek liked this project so much he persuaded me to change the design to something he thought to be a representation of the early 16th century. I do like the design still, but i must admit that this piece is nothing like a real 16th century design. The mechanism however does work flawlesly (it trows a lot of sparks and fires like it should). Most other self spanning wheel locks don't have a large enough rotation to trow sufficient sparks, making them more a decorative piece than a ussuable piece (this is what i learned, but i don't have a library of 3000 books sadly hahaha :D )

I do like to keep you as a friend ( :p ) so i placed some other threads with my personal collection below.
I hope you will enjoy them better than the pistol ;)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17753
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17763
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17547
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17548

[Matchlock]

As our forum can need each and every bit of merchandising, I linked posts #115ff. above to ForgottenWeapons.com, in relation to that ca. 1540 Rotunda breechloading wheellock arquebus I posted here.


Michael
December 5, 2013 at 2:50 am · Reply

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7364&page=4&pp=30&highlight=breech+loading+1540


Please see the thread linked here, especially posts #115ff, where I posted, along with two more guns by the same maker, your ca. 1540 breechloading Augsburg wheellock arquebus.

The makers mark, a double-struck falchion flanked by two stars, for Christoph Arnold of Augsburg, appears also on the breech of the finely preserved Berlin arquebus, which additionally bears the date 1540 on both the barrel and the underside of the stock.

And please tell that guy Iain, who presented the gun in the video, that he was telling some rubbish when stating that the wheel was missing, etc.


Best,
Michael

[Marcus den toom]

The item i was talking about in a other thread, my own wheel lock breech loading chamber with pan and pancover.
Also the rifle it belonged to, alas i didn't have 40K in my pocket at the time to buy it :D
The decoration is the same.
http://i40.tinypic.com/25oyntc.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/1zfpxzq.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/eu36h3.jpg

[Matchlock]

Would you please care to give all the exact bibliographic details concerning the book you scanned from? (author, exact title, year of publication, ISBN ...).
Thanks.

Btw, the author's dating of the gun ('2nd half 16th c.') is 100 years out of reality; the piece was made in about 1665-80, which means 2nd half 17th c.. Who is this guy anyway juggling with 100 years as if they were rubber balls? :rolleyes:


Best,
m

[Marcus den toom]

The book is actually a auction cattalogue :D
Czerny's, october 24th&25th 2009 page 566-567

My thoughts exactly, but sadly most auction houses don't have a "Michael" on there payroll :o

[Matchlock]

Thanks a lot, Marcus, for that superb compliment! ;) :cool: :eek:


Reality though is as sad as it is true: sales people do not want mercilessly honest, dedicated and competent 'cranks' like me. What they want, and pay for, are their own spectacular descriptions that hopefully (in their view) just do one thing: sell ...

For more than 30 years I have commented on pieces from my range of competence to all the big international auction houses as soon as their latest catalogs have been out. The only ones to ever thank me and include my comments in discussions with possible buyers during visiting hours are - the three London houses Bonhams, Christie's and Tom De Mar (in alphabetical order). So they, in my personal private view, are the most honest ones. They at least try ...


Best,
Michael

[Marcus den toom]

Did Fisscher never do anything with your information? I would be suprised, last time i was in Luzern and visited their auktion they seemed very honest.
My experience with auction is indeed their exstesive ways of convincing buyers of special features on their items. Most of the time you also see that they just copy the text from the previous auction house where the item was sold through.
I always try to track any major purchases down to previous auctions, this will tell you a lot about the different views and time that has passed between 2 sales. :D

I found this picture on the web, more hackbut barrels and handgonnes but i think it will do nicely in this thread.
These items are in the Belgium national firearms museum in Brussel/Bruxelles.
http://i44.tinypic.com/9jkgll.png

[Matchlock]

Hi Marcus,


Thank you for the nice image from the Brussels Koninklijk Leger Museum. Are there any other pictures showing such beautiful stuff where you found it? Could you link that site here, please?

I did some 'photoshoping' to the tiller guns (Stangenbüchsen) of ca. 1430-50, after they had evolved wall hooks..


Best,
Michael

[Marcus den toom]

I found them here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/98015679@N04/9226516750/in/photostream/

just as these few
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_carloni/8182339352/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/indread_coal/223227974/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/indread_coal/223232480/

:D

[fernando]

And the ca. 1700 Thurn & Taxis flintlock rifle, re-stocked in the mid 18 th century, together with its original leather collar containing 11 numbered rifled (!) cartridges - with number 12 inserted in the breech.

Michael
Maybe i failed to see this post when it came in.
This rifle is a stupendous example of gunmaking ... art ... not smithing :cool: .

.

[Matchlock]

In the Koninklijk Leger Museum (Army Museum, Brussels).

m

[Matchlock]

For two personal wheellock breechloaders of Henry VIII, please see
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=164634#post164634

m

[Maurice]

Swivel-gun / ship's canon.

I made this image in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam a few months ago.

This Dutch cannon was excavated from the reclaimed Haarlemmermeer in the second half of the 19th century.
It may have been used during the Battle of Haarlemmermeer in 1573.
The wooden support on which the cannon is mounted with six wrought-iron bands can swivel on an iron pin, allowing for greater accuracy in shooting at enemy ships.

[Matchlock]

Thank you so much, Maurice,


For this nice and good-quality contribution of yours! :)

Judging by the short, swamped and rounded muzzle section and the engraved roped frieze at the rear end of the barrel, this piece can be dated be as early as ca. 1510, so it really saw service for quite a long time.


Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Very nice and rather early breech loader, Maurice.
Thanks for sharing :)

[Maurice]

You're welcome Michael and Fernando!


Not my collectionfield, but I think they're fascinating!

Happy newyear,
Maurice

[Matchlock]

And to you!

Michael

[fernando]

Amen :)

[Matchlock]

And over! :D

[Matchlock]

Two detached early-16th century breeches, at the museum of Grandson castle, Switzerland.

m

[Matchlock]

A three-barreled cast-bronze breechloading cannon (now heavily damaged) of Henry VIII, of 1543, at the Tower of London.
The breeches are all missing.

m

[Spiridonov]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=50770&stc=1
Michael, do You have a more qualitative photo of muzzle end of this barrel or high resolution of this photo?

[Matchlock]

Alexender, ;)


I attached the only other image I have of this gun, plus a magnified detail; sorry. :shrug:

I expect the muzzle to look very similar to that of my 1481 Munich/Passau barrel though, with a bell-shaped mouth (bottom attachments).

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7107



Best,
Michael

[Spiridonov]

Thank You, Michael! It's enough to understand the shape of the barrel end :D

[Matchlock]

The iron wedge is also retained.

Found on a dealer's site, labeled 'sold'.


m

[Matchlock]

For a highly interesting 'military' breechloading matchlock petronel, Suhl, ca. 1590-1600, please see
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=169182#post169182

m

[Itaca]

Hi friends you compliment for the pieces that you have....
I believe that this is the correct topic for this reed of mine.

Do you think that it is of 1700 1800?
Do I believe that it misses the final part of the reed that was circular perhaps correct?
Total length 24 cms.
I calibrate inside (muzle) 1,3 / 1,4 cms.
Octagonal section.
Opposite extremity to the mouth 3 / 3,2 cms.
The space to entertain a settled handle is long 1,4 cms. and it is found in the right side.

Can you tell me more?
You excuse for mine bad English

[Itaca]

:confused: :confused: Nothing??

[Matchlock]

Hi friends you compliment for the pieces that you have....
I believe that this is the correct topic for this reed of mine.

Do you think that it is of 1700 1800?
Do I believe that it misses the final part of the reed that was circular perhaps correct?
Total length 24 cms.
I calibrate inside (muzle) 1,3 / 1,4 cms.
Octagonal section.
Opposite extremity to the mouth 3 / 3,2 cms.
The space to entertain a settled handle is long 1,4 cms. and it is found in the right side.

Can you tell me more?
You excuse for mine bad English



Hi Itaca,

Sorry for replying so late but it was only this morning that I noticed you query.

First of all, don't wory about your command of English; :) ;) being not a native English speaker myself, I perfectly understand what you wished me to do.
Just one little hint: by 'reed' you obviously mean 'barrel'; that's the correct term for your item in question.

I photoshopped your - sadly very dark - photos a bit and reattached them.
I guess the overall length of that barrel is 42 cm, rather than 24?
If it were German made I would say it is the barrel from a mid-16th century (ca. 1540-60) wheellock arquebus or long pistol; the touch hole is clearly visible, and as there a no traces of a formerly dovetailed pan it cannot have been a matchlock barrel.
But it was definitely altered within its working life, which may have lasted as long as the 18th century: the original long rear barrel tang and the originally dovetailed rear sight are now missing; the dovetailing is still visible. The short, pronouncedly rounded muzzle section is normally not found on barrels after ca. 1600.

To convey a rough idea of what the complete short arquebus/long saddle pistol might have looked like, I attached a photo of an originally preserved wheellock arquebus/pistol dated 1547, in the Real Armería Madrid.

Where was you barrel excavated or where did it come from?

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Wow, I just noticed that this thread had collected almost 30,500 views!

Thank you all for reading, and trusting my statements!

I will hang on doing my very best!

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi broadaxe,

Sorry for almost overlooking your post. :rolleyes:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7364&page=6&pp=3

Yes, this is a mid- to second-half 15th century breechloading ship gun, originally mounted on the ship's rail, with its swivel stuck in the wood.
It is preserved completely, including its detachable breech.

After a bit of photoshopping, I reattached your picture.

Best,
Michael

[Itaca]

Hi Matchlock thanks for your answer...
I will hold well in consideration your suggestion, it is true that for me they are very difficult the specific terms, I think about translating from Italian but they are not the correct words.

You have really reason the length is of 42 cms. I have been wrong to write, this barrel;) I have found him in Albania, where I sometimes see some very beautiful rifles..

[Matchlock]

Thank you, Itaca,

Again: don't worry about your English, it is perfectly understood!

Best,
Michael

[Andi]

A breech loader chamber of the 15th century found in 1932 in front of the famous Lübeck Holstentor. Photographed at Museum Holstentor Lübeck, Germany. Unfortunately no dimensions and caliber are given.

[Andi]

Images from Tøjhusmuseet Copenhagen, Denmark.
The first is a netherlands 3/4 pounder called pothund of the 16th century the other ones were found in a ships wreck near Anholt.

[Matchlock]

This interesting piece of light artillery, the wrought iron barrel not marked but doubtlessly made either in Suhl or in the neighboring center of Zella, and the butt of the beechwood full stock carved with floral motifs in the characteristic Suhl manner, is mounted on its original two-wheeled carriage. This way, it could be moved more quickly from one place of the castle walls to another.

The Suhl style of carving stocks was carried out from ca. 1590 - the earliest known is a similar wall gun in the Livrustkammaren near Stockholm, the barrel struck with Suhl marks and the date 1592 - until ca. 1620 when the outbreak of the Thirty Years War in 1618 literally stopped any superfluous decoration of "military" guns.

Although this gun was made on the eve of the Thirty Years War, its breech still opens and shuts the same way breechloaders did around 1540. One iron cartridge is still preserved but oiriginally there must have been several more to enable rapid firing.
Even though this actually could be termed a high-tech item to the world of 400 years ago, it does not have an igniting mechanism. The ingnition had to be done the usual way: pour some priming powder on the pan-like moulded touch hole and touch it with either a glowing matchcord (German: Luntenstrick) clamped in the heaed of a linstock (German: Luntenstock) or a red hot igniting iron (German: Loseisen).

Its overall length including the carriage is ca. 3.5 meters.
The author photographed it in the exhibition rooms at Schloss Hohenlohe-Langenburg, which belongs to the Prince of Hohenlohe.

Similar pieces are in the Bayerisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt and the Veste Coburg.

In a part-sale of the armory of Schloss Hohenlohe-Langenburg, Thomas Del Mar Ltd., 3 December 2014, there was another breechloading Bockbüchse but with a simpler breech mechanism.
I will post it here soon.

For three interesting wall guns, two of them dated 1525 and 1537 respectively, the third ca. 1535-40, please see:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8185&page=3&pp=30



Best,
Michael

All photos copyrighted by the author.

[Matchlock]

This was sold from the Hohenlohe-Langeburg armory at Thomas Del Mar, 3 December 2014.

m

[Matchlock]

Two very similar Bockbüchsen, both Suhl made and dated 1609, are in the Historisches Museum Bern, Switzerland. The first is struck with Suhl proof marks, the dealer's mark of Valentin Klett the Elder.
As usual with pieces of artillery, it had was given a name, Shilt (shield).
The name of the other is Hund (dog or hound).

In the same museum is another Bockbüchse with a much much more refined breechloading system.

A very similar but really unique piece of early 17th century artillery high-tech, the barrel struck with the proof mark of the city of Zella near Suhl, the date 1619 - the second year of the Thirty Years War - was preserved completely with all its accouterments, including the original ball mold.
The contemporary historic term of such a breechloading Bockbüchse was Stück zum Geschwindschießen (rapid firing piece).

It got deaccessioned by the Prince of Hohenlohe from the Princely Collection at Schloss Hohenlohe-Langenburg and entered The Michael Trömner Collection in 1989, from where it was sold via Hermann Historica, 6 October 2008.
It is now in the collection, and on exhibition, at Burg Stolpen near Dresden.
Please watch the video on line:
http://www.burg-stolpen.org/en/homepage/

Burg Stolpen was founded in the 12th century.


The attached scans are from
Rudolf Wegeli: Inventar des Bernischen Historischen Museums in Bern; Bd. IV, 1948: Fernwaffen, pp. 85ff.

Photos copyrighted by Hermann Historica and by the author.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

More details.

[Matchlock]

This is my good and brilliant friend Armin König, together with my Bockbüchse, in his armory in Hohenberg a.d. Eger:

http://www.engerisser.de/Bewaffnung/weapons/Firearms.html

[Matchlock]

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[Matchlock]

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[Matchlock]

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[Matchlock]

A Suhl made breechloading Bockbüchse, early 17th c., in the historic arsenal (German: Zeughaus) at the Kunstsammlungen der Veste (fortress) Coburg, Franconia, Northern Bavaria.
Photo saved from Facebook.

[Spiridonov]

Michael, thank You for this great photos of breechloader. I think that cartridge for this gun was longer than breech thereby rear end of cartridge should be a little sticking out of the breech. When the breech block lift up it cut away rear end of the cartridge (like a guillotine) and powder fall on the deepening of breech block. So there is no need to fill powder on the pan from powder flask. I do not pretend that this is true but just a hypothesis. What makes me think this way? Here is one picture show us ignition channel bending. So, there is not possibility to pierce cartridge by awl through the touch hole. It’s mean that cartridge should be cut of like on sharps rifle to make contact powder with ignition channel. Moreover recess width is too large. This suggests that this recess is designed to catch the powder falling out of the cartridge. This makes gunpowder falling from the edges to the center. By the way gun of absolutely similar design is in the museum of artillery in Saint-Petersburg

[Matchlock]

Michael, thank You for this great photos of breechloader. I think that cartridge for this gun was longer than breech thereby rear end of cartridge should be a little sticking out of the breech. When the breech block lift up it cut away rear end of the cartridge (like a guillotine) and powder fall on the deepening of breech block. So there is no need to fill powder on the pan from powder flask.
Hi Alexander,

Your idea sounds brilliant and at the same time both logical and very practical - thank you indeed!;):cool:
The only thing that still makes me ponder is that very spacious trough on top of the barrel, right around the touch hole area. Do you think it was possible that, when closing the breech shut and ripping open the paper of the cartridge, enough powder was pressed up out, and all the way through the thick iron barrel wall, and the tiny touch hole, unto it actually filled that large pan-like trough?
I'm not sure about that thesis.:shrug:

But as you have the same gun in St. Petersburg - why not simple go there and practice with it, right there in the museum?:eek:

Best wishes as ever, my brillant friend,
Michael

[Matchlock]

After that much artillery, here is a more handy 17th c. specimen: a fine breechloading wheellock rifle for hunting, Poland, ca. 1630.
It sold 25 October 2009 at Czerny's, Sarzana.

Best,
Michael

[cel7]

Hi, this is my first post on this forum. I live in the Netherlands and have a broad interest in European history and warfare through the ages.

Few weeks ago i bought this cannon wich was original unearthed in the surrounding of Nijmegen. The man i bought it from, kept it in his barn for 40 years.

Maybe some of you have already seen it on a other forum where i posted it.

I saw this great tread about 15e century cannons, so perhaps may recognize one of the members this specific type. I have already received some very good info on the other forum but maybe someone can tell if there is a name for this type of short cannon and what the purpose was (defensive, offensive?).

It's Forged, 54cm long and the bore has a caliber of 11,5cm. Its a breech loader with an internal ring in the breech end. The strange thing is, and i can not find it on other ones, that it has zigzag decoration on the rings. Not all the way around but 3/4 of the diameter. My gues is that the part that lay in the mount was left smooth. According to a specialist on the other forum "not arsenal made". What is your opinion?

[Marcus den toom]

Hi my fellow Dutchman :)
Welcome to this forum and congratulations on that amazing breech loading cannon. I never saw this one before, it looks like a cannon i found in this illustration from the manuscript "Ms. germ. qu. 14 (Ausst. 48) - Rüst- und Feuerwerksbuch" Made in around the 1500s. That decoration was in use quit a while if i am not mistaken, but i too never saw it on such a cannon before. I would however dare to say that this cannon was originally made somewhere in Germany, but correct me (anyone) if i am wrong)

http://sammlungen.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/msma/content/titleinfo/3656793

http://i57.tinypic.com/2rn7gog.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/nfppfl.jpg

[cel7]

Thanks Marcus, that's a very interesting book!
Found these pictures of examples in the Army museum in Brussel, look also very similar.

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Cel7,

Those are indeed very nice ;)
It seems that the national military museum in the Netherlands that just reopend has some beautiful stuff as well. I still need to plan my visit.
Could you please send me a personal message (i can't send one to you, your acount is ristricted somehow).

Those at the Belgium museum are generally dated to 1450s, but i would date them to be somewhat more recent at 1490-1500s.

These canons do match as well and can be found at Harley Ms 4425 at page 139R (link, right top side you can select the page) http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=harley_ms_4425_fs001r

I wish i could show the picture here, but i am no longer allowed to use my trusted picture uploader... and i don't understand how i can upload pictures from my pc anymore, sorry about that. :shrug:

Best,
Marcus

[Marcus den toom]

Figured it out, i think.. sadly i had to reduce the quality of the picture for it to fit the forums specs.

[fernando]

Dear Marcus,
I am surprised that, after a while, you are not acquainted with the forum 'Manage Attachments' features, placed in the the 'Aditional Options' section, when you submit a post.
Haven't you read this:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14688.
You will find that the pictures size allowed is the most convenient for a full screen.
If anything wrong, just tell ;)
MVG

[Spiridonov]

Michael, thank you! Its AMAZING!
Looks like hangonne from trattato of Ghiberti Lorenzo http://www.bncf.firenze.sbn.it/oldWeb/Bib_digitale/Manoscritti/b.228/main.htm

http://www.bncf.firenze.sbn.it/oldWeb/Bib_digitale/Manoscritti/index.html
Sorry, I have made mistake. Manuscript was written by Ghiberti Bonaccorso but not Ghiberti Lorenzo http://echo.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/ECHOdocuView?tocMode=thumbs&url=/permanent/library/9AD5AS1A/index.meta&wh=0.1328&ww=0.1328&start=1&viewMode=index&pn=1&wy=0.3224&wx=0.1988