Ethnographic folding knives

[ausjulius]

well, here we are always talking about swords and spears and such..
but now what about some folding knives then :)

the first foto next to the okapi knife it is a factory made version of a type of dagestani folding knife. with a wood handle.

the next two are hand made, with forged convex ground blades and plexi glass handles with colored tinfoil underneath,,

this is the more common dargins made folder, made in the village of khabouk, comes with a pistol grip sort of shape grip, there is also several other styles of handle shape used, some more like the french and italian gunstock shaped pocketknife handles..

here is a Lak made folding knife with a locking blade from dagesan it is with a pink plexiglass handle,, actualy the foilunder is pink ,, made by a mamber of the lak ethnic group..





i beleive the khabouksky style of folding knife well predates communisim and proably originates some time in the earily 19th centuary when factory made goods began to arrive from russia and europe and folding knives would have been introduced..

ive not seen any very old exsamples.. as i suspect these were just worked till they fell apart,,.. older ones normaly have buffalo horn handles,, , but the style hasn't changed much,

the first knife with the pink scales is about 30 or 35 years old and the other with green scales it is only 2 or 3 years old..


so here is a dagestani folding knife........

what other ethnographic folding knives from around the world have peoples here..

[KuKulzA28]

the 'pachihlan' folding knife from Shihling in Taipei, Taiwan is pretty unique...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v48/ANDYLASER/TAIWAN/PICT0392.jpg

[ausjulius]

ah interesting, yes ive seen these knives before , some are rather well made also,

is there anyone still making them now?

i wounder if they are a european influnce ,, and if they ar eonly on taiwan,, as after all the portagese and dutch were the original colonists there with the chinese comming while the islands were under european control, maybe this pocket knife was derived from a european folding knife, ive seen quite alot of chinese friction folders from mainland china but none with a back spring on the blade.
\

[A. G. Maisey]

I like folders.

I've got a lot of folders. I do not collect them, I accumulate them.

Indiscriminately.

I buy $1 ones with broken handles and blades and fix them and sharpen them, and use them as bench knives.

In fact, any folder that I see that isn't too expensive , I buy.

This one is one of my more unusual ones. Its probably about as ethno as an ethno folder could be. I would have posted pics of it before now, but I had lent it to a friend. I don't know what it is, or where its from, but my guess is that it is a carpet maker's knife.

[Ferguson]

My only ethnographic folder. ;) A rather touristy folding Lohar from Afghanistan.

Steve

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/sferguson53/Public/Lohar_folded.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/sferguson53/Public/Lohar_open.jpg

[David]

I dunno Steve...it may be a bit "touristy", but it's cool! :)
I wonder though about including some of these factory manufactured folders in here as ethnographic. I guess i don't expect ethnographic blades to all be carbon copies of each other as these factory ones are. They may have an ethic style, but is that enough to tag them ethnographic? :shrug:

[KuKulzA28]

i wounder if they are a european influnce ,, and if they ar eonly on taiwan,, as after all the portagese and dutch were the original colonists there with the chinese comming while the islands were under european control, maybe this pocket knife was derived from a european folding knife, ive seen quite alot of chinese friction folders from mainland china but none with a back spring on the blade.
\
I know the blade design itself is southern Chinese/Taiwanese (hoklo and cantonese folks), however the folding style and mechanism may not be "traditional" though it's probably old enough a style to be considered such. I don't know if the Dutch, Spanish, French, or Portuguese have had that much of an influence on Taiwanese knife-making. Perhaps they did. I DO know that Taiwan hasn't been locked away from influences though, as the northern tribes fold their tangs similarly to Chinese and southern tribes have things in common with northern Filipinos and the Burmese Kachins, Naga, and Assam people. Japanese definitely influenced the metallurgy in some areas. But if any Sino/Taiwanese group was to be influenced by the Europeans it would probably be the Cantonese and the Hoklo, those who had the most contact with the Westerners...

an example of that can be seen with Lorchas... ships that combined the European sea-going hull with the Chinese sails... best of both worlds so to speak... so an age-old Chinese blade design and a European folding mechanism? not impossible... but I plan to get some of those folders within a few months so maybe I can comment on this better later on :D


EDIT: yes there is one maker left as far as I know... he's in the Shihling part of Taipei, Taiwan

[A. G. Maisey]

Here's another Chinese folder.

I use this as a garden knife.

It is unusual in that the liners are of a single piece of steel that has been bent over the spring.

[asomotif]

but my guess is that it is a carpet maker's knife.

Dear Alan,

I have had one of these too and was told it was from eastern India.
The seller traveled to India and eastern asia regularly to buy his stock.
They told me that it had something to do with cleaning coconuts, but it I can imagine that the construction is a bit to fragile for that job.
Any guess is worth as much as mine.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your input, Asomotif.

I've seen a total of three of these. One of the other ones was about the same as mine, and one was of really excellent quality with an ivory handle. The ivory handle one was with a batch of artifacts on sale in a carpet gallery.

I have seen a documentary on carpet making in Iran where the knife being used by the girl doing the work appeared to be similar to these knives, but as you can imagine, all I got was a fleeting glimpse of the knife, whilst it was in use.

In my household, we use coconuts as a regular part of our diet. My wife takes the shell off with big heavy knife. We don't use the coconut water, but if we did want to use it, she would simply take off a part of the shell, and then open the flesh. Seeing the way coconuts are handled for food, its a bit hard to imagine how a small, light folder could have any relationship to a coconut.

As you say, at this point, any guess is a good one.

[KuKulzA28]

I love coconuts in food and on it's own... a good golok or machete to chop it open and drink its juice... and then scoop out the meat....
the way the meat is harvested and processed is usually that it is scooped or cut out and then left out to dry in the sun... (so I've heard)
if the knife has anything to do with coconuts it's probably to do with the more delicate part of scooping out the meat? or perhaps it is used to shave off the hairs (if the brown hairy type) and using the coconut fibers to make things... I don't know how many people still use coconut fibers to make rope and such though

:shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

To remove coconut meat, you use a big knife to take the shell off, bit by bit, you don't scoop it out of the shell. Somebody who is skilled at this can do it with a couple of well placed blows, and without damaging the meat.

In Solo my servant uses a bendho to remove the shell, here in Australia my wife uses a little old machete, only about 15 inches long.In fact, any sort of heavy knife will do, but it should be sharp.If its not sharp, you can still get the shell off, but you don't get the meat out in one piece.

I've got a vague memory of seeing professionals de-shelling coconuts, and I think they use a blade that curves away from them, and is anchored in the ground, or in a bench, and they bring the nut down onto it.

[gorda]

the first foto next to the okapi knife it is a factory made version of a type of dagestani folding knife. with a wood handle.



It’s very new and interesting to me, if "okapi knife it is a factory made version of a type of dagestani folding knife." any more examples?



:confused: :)

[kronckew]

here's a recent hand made bulgarian friction folder.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/knives/6930220e.jpg

and some ring-locks

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Lock%20Knives/ringers004_DCE.jpg

the kudu is a cold steel copy of the okapi, with fancier hardware & a modern glass reinforced zytel handle.

the okapi, made in so. africa, was originally made in solingen, but they licensed it to SA, the other large one with the more abrupt clipped point has an outline eagle head in a circle in a square stamped on the blade. i think it's an earlier german one. the teeny one (2in. blade) with the horn handle is an older spanish variant.

they are a variation on the ratcheting navaja design from spain, here is a six and a three inch blade version, the lever near the pivot lifts the lock pawl, similar to the ring pull type. there are five ratchet teeth the pawl clicks over on opening, preventing it from being pushed back and closing on the owners hand in case of a fight. the lever normally lies flat against the back of the grip, is raised 90 degrees to unlock the blade for folding. i've partially lifted them here for clarity.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Lock%20Knives/navaja.jpg
they say the sound of the lock pawl clicking over the ratchet teeth was the scariest sound , and for some the last sound they ever heard, in a spanish bar...

the okapi is known to have killed more men in so. africa than any other knife.

[kronckew]

another ethnic folder i like is the barrel knife from sweden, they are each unique and the parts are not interchangeable.
this is sometimes referred to as an '1874' model as that was when it was 'patented' in the USA by a maker who had learned to make them in sweden, one of the swedish makers, john engstrum stamped his with the date he started making them, also 1874, this is NOT necessarily the mfg. date, he made them from 1874 thru 1918 and all were stamped 1874. they were made from 1864-1925 by the major mfg. mine is a p. holmberg, made between 1900-1920, 2.75 in. barrel.

photos showing how it's opened (reverse sequence to close :) )

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Lock%20Knives/lockers002_DCE.jpg
closed

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Lock%20Knives/lockers003_DCE.jpg
unlocked and removed from grip - there is a little spring loaded pawl/lever near the ring

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Lock%20Knives/lockers004_DCE.jpg
blade swinging into position. you can see the little spring locking thingy

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Lock%20Knives/lockers005_DCE.jpg
reinsterted and locked into grip and you have a nice scandi fixed blade knife.

[KuKulzA28]

For those interested, I found the website of the traditional knife-maker in 士林, Taipei, Taiwan. I believe he is 5th generation in the practice, making these traditional bamboo-leaf shaped blades. He has no apprentices as far as I know. There's a price list and sampling of the hand-made / custom-made 士林刀! Here's also a short youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRjx0FvJlzc) of him. I've ordered a blade with him, and it should be done in November (he has me in the queue).

http://mms2015.globalwebs.biz/tier/ezcatfiles/mms2015/img/img/150002691/710-2.jpg

I am not sure if I am allowed to post his website as it is a commercial site (though not an "ongoing auction"). I think he also has a partnership that is a multi-person assembly process that makes decent but not quite as good knives.

[Oriental-Arms]

Regarding the small folder posted by Maisey, thus was discussed before in the forum. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=918

[asomotif]

Thanks !

[Anandalal N.]

The folding knife posted by Alan Maisey is a knife used by scribes. The blade is a multiple use blade including the preparing of the 'ola leaf' of the palm tree on which traditionally writing was done. The point is a stylus with the use of which images are scraped on the palm leaf and blackened in with charcoal and oil or some other substance. This example is from South India; the script appears to be Tamil.

Certain Pihakaettas from Sri Lanka that still retain their sheath have a seperate channel to hold the stylus. These knives are a portable version of same.

By the way I have one of these knives where the stylus has rusted into the grip and cannot be removed. The grip is of wood. Any advice on how I could release the stylus would be appreciated.

The carpet makers knife has a small nick at the end of the point to catch the string and pull it through.

[Anandalal N.]

Here is an ola leaf written with a stylus. The script is sinhalese and the contents is Ayurvedic text.

By the way the wood of the grip in Alan Maiseys example also looks like coconut or some other such palm?

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Anandalal for what I believe to be the correct ID of the folder I posted a pic of in post #4.

I obtained this knife from an importer of hand woven carpets, and it was he who suggested that it was in fact a carpet maker's knife.

Perhaps it was, but probably not used for making carpets.

Your explanation makes perfect sense.

Again, my thanks.

[Freddy]

I'm a bit like Alan. When I visit a fleamarket and I see an inexpensive folder, I just buy it. Goes together with the rest.

I've been doing this since I was in school (and that's a long time ago). From every schooltrip, I returned with a small knife. Must be in my blood :shrug: Just can't help it.

When we (from the States or Europe) talk about etnographic knives, we always think about knives from China, Japan, Afghanistan, etc.... People living on that side of the planet might consider European knives also as typical and etnographic.

Here are some which might fit into that category : Opinel, Albacete and the unknown knife with horn grip.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/etnicknife2.jpg

Finally a portion of what I found the past few years : from tourist knife to Swiss knife. And there are a lot more in my collection. :p

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/etnicknife1.jpg

[A. G. Maisey]

Well Freddy, you're a bit better organised than I am.

Here's some of my indiscriminate accumulation --- how they're stored and most of what's in that drawer laid out.

[Dom]

Hi
I'm a mountaineer, and we are belong an ethnie, the "Rouergat" :p
our tradition is to have a folding knife multi-purpose,
since 1829 there is a famous blacksmith, Calmels,
who is manufacturing the "Laguiole knifes",
he still yet manufacturing, and trading his knifes
"ONLY" in his shop of Laguiole city (12210 - Aveyron - France)

unfortunatly, in our days, those knifes are to much fashionable,
and there are too many copies from everywhere ... even China ...
under the name of "Laguiole" :mad:

here on display, only "Calmels Laguiole" :D

à +

Dom

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, there are a lot of copies of these knives. The ones I've shown are by Maki, David, and one unbranded one that except for the fact that it was purchased by a close friend from a small maker in South France, when she was living there, you could easily take as Pakistan or Chinese production.

If there is an Aussie ethnic folder its the three blade stock knife.

[Freddy]

Not everything is so well organized, Alan. Most of the pocket knives are stored in boxes (for the tin boxes, I have to eat a lot of cookies :D ).
I keep the smallest ones in plactic bags. I also tag them, so I know when and where I bought them and what I paid.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/Afbeelding1862.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/Afbeelding1855.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/Afbeelding1859.jpg

I'll show you two nice ones. First is dated 1923. I think it's the oldest pocket knife I have. The other one could be considered an etnographic pocket knife. It's a handmade knife from Turkey. The blade has the maker's name stamped on it : BILAL CAN. It has a simple blade and a horn handle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/Afbeelding1857.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/Afbeelding1860.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/Afbeelding1861.jpg

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Freddy, as I said:- organised.

The knives I'm showing here are the ones I have readily accessible in a drawer. I've got others all over the house and workshop. The ones in the drawer are only storedas you see. No grouping, no plastic bags, I get a new knife I just put it in the drawer.

Here are few that may perhaps be interesting.

A--- dates from 1878, a star/cross

B--- my mother's knife from 1939

C--- my grandfather's knife from pre-1914

D--- a group that I believe pre-dates 1920

E--- a couple of early multi-purpose knives

F--- a couple of hobo sets, the nickel one from the WWI period, the horn handle one I believe from pre-WWII

G--- a group that I believe pre-dates WWII

[ausjulius]

It’s very new and interesting to me, if "okapi knife it is a factory made version of a type of dagestani folding knife." any more examples?



:confused: :)
>>?????
NEXT TO THE OKAPI KNIFE...... is a factory made version of a dagestani folding knife,,
the knife below the okapi knife........ okapi is a french style knife made by a german firm for trade in africa now made in south africa... not a ethnograpic knife but surly resembling some from france and southern europe in many ways..

[kronckew]

...
When we (from the States or Europe) talk about ethnographic knives, we always think about knives from China, Japan, Afghanistan, etc.... People living on that side of the planet might consider European knives also as typical and ethnographic.
...

i'll go along with freddy on that. some of these french, spanish, and other folders may be european, but are also traditional knife forms of historical designs associated with specific ethnic cultures which happen to be in europe, rather than the bland one shape fits all modern 'tactical' designs that could come from anywhere. we do have a european armoury sub-forum for those arms predating the 20th c. but i see no reason why a certain amount of overlap and discussion of traditional ethnic folders from europe should not occur here as well. we so rarely include them in any discussion at all.

i throw in a gratuitous photo of my marjacq knife with it's ebony grip, another french ethnic design still in production. neat ring lock that not only locks in the open position like the opinels, but in the closed position as well. i gather that opinel has now modified their design to include a similar functionality that was not there in my earlier opinels.
http://www.toolzone.com/acatalog/pr8477050.jpg

we have yet to see the butterfly knives that i somehow think of as filipino...i'll have to dig out a photo of mine, i think there is one traditional one amoungst some of the more 'tactical' designs....

[shangrila]

Well...there are some funny stuffs above here.

[ThePepperSkull]

I have a great uncle who is from Batangas, Phillippines. Being an old batangueno, he loves knives and has a fairly large collection of Balisong, ranging from very old to brand spanking new. I'll make a mental note to take pics for this thread the next time I visit.

[Rick]

A couple of Mom and Pop manufactured balisongs .

[Lew]

Here is an Indian folding knife that I had some years back.

[kronckew]

took a quick & nasty photo of my balisongs,
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/knives/Balisong.jpg

Top:marked: Frosts Cutlery - Surgical Steel - Japan
2nd: Hand Made Phillipines 11-521
3rd: (Butterfly logo), Pacific Cutlery - Japan.
Bottom: (unmarked) Rostfrei

the bottom two are amoungst the bland 'tactical' blade shapes that could have come from anywhere. the top two are more 'ethnic', with the filipino one being the most traditional.

(my favourite is actually the bottom unmarked stiletto bladed one ;))

[A. G. Maisey]

Don't bring those balisongs to Australia to peel your apples.

Illegal here. Get you 25 to life if they don't hang you first --- well, not really, but they are illegal, with very heavy fines and a criminal record attached---just like the dreaded slingshot and those super evil blowpipes.

[kronckew]

Don't bring those balisongs to Australia to peel your apples.

Illegal here. Get you 25 to life if they don't hang you first --- well, not really, but they are illegal, with very heavy fines and a criminal record attached---just like the dreaded slingshot and those super evil blowpipes.

actually they're highly illegal here too. they are specifically mentioned on the banned knife list. i am allowed to have them as they were purchased before they were banned, but i cannot take them off my property, or sell, loan, or trade them to anyone. they fall into the same class as push daggers, belt buckle knives, and automatic opening (flick) knives. they are, of course no more deadly than any of my other 'legal' knives.

[Rick]

I guess this would merit a hanging then . ;)
Multi-cultural . :D

One may carry these unconcealed in Florida .

[A. G. Maisey]

OH My GOD!!!

Rick, put it away!

That'd get you the cat'o nine tails loaded with lead shot, before they hung you, drew you, and then quartered you. Probably burn your entrails in a brazier as they came out, too.

[Rick]

:D :D A Braveheart ending, eh ? :D :D

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep.

But if you're interested in weaponry of any kind in this country --- Miraculous Oz --- you need to have the fortitude of a William Wallace to endure.

You can go down for a bunch of keys in the wrong place and wrong time here.

[Rick]

The spiral springs on these new autos are pretty nifty; quite unlike the traditional lever 'springer' switchblades they exert opening force throughout the process rather than a spring 'launch' that can be stopped simply by deflection, these will continue to open .

With these you can also easily replace a worn or broken spring without rebuilding the knife.

I think I digress ..... :o

[kronckew]

Mine is a more traditional auto. (also grandfathered in the law, but can't go outside, etc.)

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/auto.jpg

'assisted opening' knives are legal to buy and own, tho not to carry 'without good reason' as they all are lock knives, a no-no. they are OK as the springdoes not open the knife directly via a button or lever release, but only 'assist' the opening started manually. the end result is the same, but one is legal and the other isn't. strange world lawyers live in. customs in the US were going to ban assisted opening knives by internal regulation (ie. not based on law, but just because they felt like it) but there was a heartening groundswell of opinion and letters to congress that managed to scare them back into their holes. until next time.

[kronckew]

Yep.

...

You can go down for a bunch of keys in the wrong place and wrong time here.

guess this pocket multi-too would be illegal as well.
http://www.heinnie.com/uploads/images_products_large/568.jpg

i stopped carrying mine as it was more likely to cut me than the thing i was trying to cut with it. but of course that is what made it legal.

[A. G. Maisey]

That multi tool is a knife by definition, and a bladed implement.

Carry is definitely prohibited in NSW, Australia , unless you have an acceptable reason. An acceptable reason would be for the preparation and consumption of food --- pretty much anything other than this would not be acceptable.

[kronckew]

here you can carry a 3in. edge or smaller non-locking folder without a good reason, as long as you do not take it out and use it in an offensive manner (self defence is still offensive according to the law). just taking out out to cut something can be considered 'threatening' if some member of the public gets frightened.

you can carry a fixed blade or locking knife only with good reason, being a chef would be one, or being in a profession where you regularly cut open boxes is another. going fishing would allow you to carry a filleting knife in the tackle box.

however, you must proceed DIRECTLY from your home to the place of the activity, if you stop for fuel, for a wee, or to pick up a take-away, you have then broken the reason and can be prosecuted for carrying an offensive weapon, even if it was locked up in your tackle box, glove box, etc. if you enter a prohibited zone, a public building, court, subway system, train, school, etc. even the under 3in. otherwise legal carry suddenly is not legal.

the police get to decide if your reason is a good one, and may confiscate your knife, and arrest you if they do not like it. you may get off a few months later,after court and lawyers fees, etc. you won't get your knife back tho. and you might not get off. if the non-locking folding knife is borderline, ie. the edge is 2 7/8" and there is a 1/4 unsharpened ricasso, if the cop decides he don't like it, you can get arrested and argue it in court.

i heard of a guy with a little under 1 inch keychain knife that was not even sharpened, it had a button lock and looked like a flick knife, cop noticed it on a traffic stop when it was dangling from the ignition. he got arrested, and convicted of carrying an offensive weapon, tho he did get a suspended sentence and a fine on top of the other legal hassles and expenses instead of jail - and of course he's now a convicted felon.

ah, well, 'nuff said on the subject, we best not stray into politics...

[Rick]

Might as well add a little Klaas to this thread . ;)
A Kissing Crane . :D
Love the green scales ! :D

[ThePepperSkull]

I am surprised that nobody mentioned the Higonokami

http://japan-blades.com/wp-content/uploads/kt-7021.jpg

[Andrew]

Here's a recent addition I picked up from OA. This is what Artzi (Avner?) had to say:

The origin and use of this type of folding knifes is not very clear and there are numerous suggestions: Ranging from knives to clean opium pipes to knives for cutting and inscribing on dates leaves. The origin is most probably from the Indo-China area. It has a 3 inches blade, hollow ground, 3 inches back spike and ivory handle with engraved inscription. handle. 6 ½ inches fully opened. Very good condition.

This is clearly from SEA. My impression is Thai based on the blade profile, but if someone (PUFF? :D ) were able to translate the inscription on the handle, we would surely learn more.

Andrew

[Rick]

Just kinda found its way to you unnoticed. :D

Lucky Guy . ;)

[Andrew]

lol. :D

Amazingly, this is likely the first purchase I've made in over a year! :eek:

[Andrew]

And, since I'm now a moderator emeritus, I abused my still intact super-powers to edit the thread title (temporarily) to entice PUFF to come join us. :D

[Berkley]

From China, usually called a "fish knife":
http://i49.tinypic.com/2q9ihar.jpg
OTOH, compare this modern variant:http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Chinese-Army-CAVALRY-TROOP-TOOL-KNIFE-1975-2-10-/250638251692?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5b3436ac

[Nathaniel]

Here's a recent addition I picked up from OA. This is what Artzi (Avner?) had to say:



This is clearly from SEA. My impression is Thai based on the blade profile, but if someone (PUFF? :D ) were able to translate the inscription on the handle, we would surely learn more.

Andrew

Andrew, Just saw your post. The script is not Thai...not sure what it is :shrug:

[Nathaniel]

From China, usually called a "fish knife":
http://i49.tinypic.com/2q9ihar.jpg
OTOH, compare this modern variant:http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Chinese-Army-CAVALRY-TROOP-TOOL-KNIFE-1975-2-10-/250638251692?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5b3436ac

Interesting knife...the ebay post had some very interesting information :) I wonder why the blade does not open up to a wider angle?

[PUFF]

Here's a recent addition I picked up from OA. This is what Artzi (Avner?) had to say:



This is clearly from SEA. My impression is Thai based on the blade profile, but if someone (PUFF? :D ) were able to translate the inscription on the handle, we would surely learn more.

Andrew

Thanks Nathaniel for sending me a link to this thread. I rarely visit this forum this year.

The inscription is not Thai. And as fas as I know, it doesnt looks like Burmese nor Khmer.

Folding knife is not common for Thai before 18-19C. Most of small knives are fixed blade.

[Andrew]

Thanks Nathaniel for sending me a link to this thread. I rarely visit this forum this year.

The inscription is not Thai. And as fas as I know, it doesnt looks like Burmese nor Khmer.

Folding knife is not common for Thai before 18-19C. Most of small knives are fixed blade.

Ah, curious. Many thanks. :)

Would you agree that blade profile looks Thai?

The file-work on the spike strikes me as possibly Indian. Hmmmm. :shrug:

[kronckew]

thought that last one looked familiar, opium smoking knife from china:
http://www.cas.umt.edu/anthro/anth495cim/images/100_1036_000.jpg

Linky (http://www.cas.umt.edu/anthro/anth495cim/opium.htm)

i suspect the other 'thai' friction folder with the pictographic writing is also an opium knife. the knife is used to trim wicks and cut the opium into small bits, which are then carefully impaled on a skewer, or opium pin, for placement in the flame for cooking before being placed in the pipe bowl. the thai/hmong knife's spike tip seems to have been subject to similar use. these are early 'combo' tools.

the chinese 'cavalry' knife in the earlier posted link has a spike for removing stones and other items stuck in a horse's hoof, and the blade is used to trim any sharp edges on the hoof.

many knives, such as my royal navy/marine issue knife
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/knives/marineissue.jpg
have similar stubby blades in the warncliffe or sheepsfoot patterns, with marlinspikes added for use in rope and knot work.

[mross]

Here's a recent addition I picked up from OA. This is what Artzi (Avner?) had to say:



This is clearly from SEA. My impression is Thai based on the blade profile, but if someone (PUFF? :D ) were able to translate the inscription on the handle, we would surely learn more.

Andrew
This style of knife is often refered to as a friction folder.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=739326&highlight=friction+knife

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=746267&highlight=friction+knife

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?14882

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298709

[Berkley]

kronckew,
That knife is an interesting variation, since its tail does indeed appear to be in the form of tweezers such as are commonly used for holding sticky balls of uncooked opium. Most of the "fish knives" I have seen have solid spikes more suitable for knotwork on lines or nets (or cleaning hooves). The basic Chinese folder design appears to have a variety of possible uses.
Berk

[kronckew]

ah, how soon we forget:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=49538&stc=1

a similar thai style knife in a earlier post in this thread. see post no. 19...

a thread on the chinese 'peasants' knife...
Linky (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=620067)

the friction folder has been around since early roman times at least, and are still quite popular.

modern peasants knives:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/knives/frictionfolders002.jpg
the one on the left is considerably older than the other two ;)

[chregu]

France
Austria Taschenfeitel
Spain Navaja
Corsica Vendeta
Italy?
France?
In the boxes are all my penknife
Witrinesind in all good pocket knife, the bottom row are all Swiss Army Knives

[ericlaude]

I present my last conquest.
An Afghan folding knife.

[laEspadaAncha]

I'll throw my scribe knife into the ring... Same handle form as the one from OA (but different material) and same hollow-grind to the blade.

This one was picked up on the Malabar coast... The vendor had several (the ivory-handled example can cost a few bucks), and described them exactly (as did my wife) as they have been described elsewhere in this thread, as having been used for inscribing on leaves.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9246/scribeknife.jpg
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/8664/scribeknife2.jpg

[Andrew]

Jens has posted a very similar knife here, also with reliable Indian provenance:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12274

Accordingly, in light of Jens' example, as well as laEspadaAncha's example above, I am happy to retreat from my arrogant comment that my knife was "clearly SEA". I should know better. :o

:)

If anyone knows who can translate the writing on the ivory handle of my knife, I'd be grateful.

[VANDOO]

A FEW OF MY FAVORITES FOR YOUR ENJOYMENT, I JUST HAVE THE PICTURES NOT THE KNIVES :(
THE FIRST THREE PICTURES I AM NOT SURE OF THE NEXT THREE ARE ALL GREEK KNIVES WITH CARVED HANDLES, THE LAST TWO ARE FROM SICILY AND ARE CALLED SALITANO AFTER A SEA FISH. ENJOY :D

[ericlaude]

Hello everybody,
Now i show you a "bizare" ethnic folding knife, if someone can tell me its origine , I will die more intelligent.
Thanks in advance

[Atlantia]

Looks like a variation on those Indian made 'Nazi' brass folders to me.
http://www.knivesdeal.com/images/1224605459064200751193.jpg

[olaicollector]

In regards to Andrew's post (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=102744&postcount=48), the engraving on the handle is as follows:

ஆரு. ப.அ

which are just initials, presumably indicating the owner. Translated into English, it just says Aru. Pa. A

Cheers,

Ram

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~ Nice thread ... Heres 4; The white bone handle is razor like and sharp and possibly a circumcision item, Bedu and accompanied by a tooled leather case. The hook shape looks vaguelly for use on a ship and the brass one is Pakistani. The star and moon hilt is Solingen. Thats it ! :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[trenchwarfare]

I am surprised that nobody mentioned the Higonokami

http://japan-blades.com/wp-content/uploads/kt-7021.jpg


Did somebody mention Higonokami...

My Japanese folder collection.

[Edster]

Here's a nice lock blade folder from Zanjan, Iran circa 1966. That town is long famous as a knife making center.

[Billman]

Ibrahiim - your curved knife is a form of folding billhook - used mainly for pruning of fruit trees/bushes and grape vines. Known as a serpette in France, and a roncoletta in Italy (diminutive forms of serpe and roncola respectively) - it is found all over southern Europe and the Mediterranean area. I would guess yours in probably Italian in origin, possibly from the Maniago region.
see: http://www.couteaux-jfl.com/serpettes.htm Sailors' knives tend to have a square blade, see: http://www.linder.de/en/artikel/Knives_Made_Worldwide/Folding_Knives/Folding_Knives/329509/Sailor’s_knife

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim - your curved knife is a form of folding billhook - used mainly for pruning of fruit trees/bushes and grape vines. Known as a serpette in France, and a roncoletta in Italy (diminutive forms of serpe and roncola respectively) - it is found all over southern Europe and the Mediterranean area. I would guess yours in probably Italian in origin, possibly from the Maniago region.
see: http://www.couteaux-jfl.com/serpettes.htm Sailors' knives tend to have a square blade, see: http://www.linder.de/en/artikel/Knives_Made_Worldwide/Folding_Knives/Folding_Knives/329509/Sailor’s_knife

Salaams Billman ~ Thank you for that ... How interesting... can't think how it arrived here?... I shall give it a go on my Pomegranates !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Billman]

Prior to the invention of the secateurs, c 1830 and their gradual introduction into viniculture and later horticulture in the late 19th/early 20th century, all pruning of vines, fruit trees, fruit bushes, roses etc was carried out with a small billhook. Many were of a fixed blade model, but equally many were made with folding blades.

They would have originally been made locally by cutlers and edge tool makers, but post the Industrial Revolution in Europe, imports from English, German, French, Italian and Spanish makers would have been serious competition, as mass production methods brought down the cost. The same is true of many other tools and also weapons - later the USA and other countries also made and exported them. Some English, German and US makers established manufacturing plants in other countries - today some of them still survive as independent manufacturers...

Now much manufacturing by UK firms is out-sourced to India, China & Taiwan. The edge tool industries of Sheffield and the Midlands has all but disappeared, and we are importing tools from many other countries.

How the mighty are fallen.... (Samuel 2:1)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Prior to the invention of the secateurs, c 1830 and their gradual introduction into viniculture and later horticulture in the late 19th/early 20th century, all pruning of vines, fruit trees, fruit bushes, roses etc was carried out with a small billhook. Many were of a fixed blade model, but equally many were made with folding blades.

They would have originally been made locally by cutlers and edge tool makers, but post the Industrial Revolution in Europe, imports from English, German, French, Italian and Spanish makers would have been serious competition, as mass production methods brought down the cost. The same is true of many other tools and also weapons - later the USA and other countries also made and exported them. Some English, German and US makers established manufacturing plants in other countries - today some of them still survive as independent manufacturers...

Now much manufacturing by UK firms is out-sourced to India, China & Taiwan. The edge tool industries of Sheffield and the Midlands has all but disappeered, and we are importing tools from many other countries.

How the mighty are fallen.... (Samuel 2:1)


Salaama Billman~ In Oman farm tools were made by a strange wandering group of Zutoot (Gypsies) now fully incorporated into the Omani system since 1970, thus, much of that work has ceased. It is a great pity the great blade makers of Sheffield are no longer in business as they still have a fine reputation here for working knives.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Billman]

There are a few knife makers still working in Sheffield, so the tradition continues - even at least one Little Meister still hand making knives. Sadly British draconian knife laws have reduced sales in the UK - as a boy I (and almost every boy in my class at school) carried a penknife - today very few adults carry a knife (unlike in France and Italy) - those that do have to justify their reason if stopped by the police. The idea is to reduce knife crime - sadly those who carry knives for illegal purposes do not take heed of the law....

[kronckew]

There are a few knife makers still working in Sheffield, so the tradition continues - even at least one Little Meister still hand making knives. Sadly British draconian knife laws have reduced sales in the UK - as a boy I (and almost every boy in my class at school) carried a penknife - today very few adults carry a knife (unlike in France and Italy) - those that do have to justify their reason if stopped by the police. The idea is to reduce knife crime - sadly those who carry knives for illegal purposes do not take heed of the law....
you beat me to it. i do carry a sub-three inch non locking folder which is UK legal to carry w/o a reason. even tho it is legal, i have to be careful where and why i use it. if i 'scare' someone a cop could construe that as an offensive act and i'd be done for carrying an offensive weapon, even tho the knife itself is 'legal'.

i visited sheffield a few years ago, couldn't find any decent knives. only one store actually sold non cutlery style knives, most were imports and of poor quality. found one traditional maker who worked at a forge in the knife making museum. his order book was backed up for years and he was rather expensive. there was another one there as well, but he was closed at the time. many old factories were shut down & i would bet have since been razed.

john nowill still has a factory making knives, some of low quality and price, but serviceable. his stag handled seaman's knife is decent and inexpensive. his high end bowies ain't too bad. 'sheffield knives' makes some, tho i've never desired any of theirs. too many are 'stainless', i prefer high carbon steel or non-stainless tool steel alloys.

i took a trip to see wilkinson sword's HQ & sword factory a while back. unbeknown to me, they had shut up shop the week before & were closed forever. they still had a specimen of their limited edition gladius in the window when i peered in. now the 'wilkinson sword' name is only on razor blades.

sad.

i wonder who makes the miltary's dress swords. probably made in china.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

you beat me to it. i do carry a sub-three inch non locking folder which is UK legal to carry w/o a reason. even tho it is legal, i have to be careful where and why i use it. if i 'scare' someone a cop could construe that as an offensive act and i'd be done for carrying an offensive weapon, even tho the knife itself is 'legal'.

i visited sheffield a few years ago, couldn't find any decent knives. only one store actually sold non cutlery style knives, most were imports and of poor quality. found one traditional maker who worked at a forge in the knife making museum. his order book was backed up for years and he was rather expensive. there was another one there as well, but he was closed at the time. many old factories were shut down & i would bet have since been razed.

john nowill still has a factory making knives, some of low quality and price, but serviceable. his stag handled seaman's knife is decent and inexpensive. his high end bowies ain't too bad. 'sheffield knives' makes some, tho i've never desired any of theirs. too many are 'stainless', i prefer high carbon steel or non-stainless tool steel alloys.

i took a trip to see wilkinson sword's HQ & sword factory a while back. unbeknown to me, they had shut up shop the week before & were closed forever. they still had a specimen of their limited edition gladius in the window when i peered in. now the 'wilkinson sword' name is only on razor blades.

sad.

i wonder who makes the miltary's dress swords. probably made in china.


Salaams kronckew... Disposal of the sword business;

The Acton sword factory closed, and sword production ceased on 15 September 2005. Most of the Wilkinson Sword machinery, tools and equipment was purchased by the oldest producing sword factory in the world, WKC (Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Cie) of Solingen, Germany. Amongst these items were most of the current British MOD Pattern Sword and Scabbard tools as well as the original blade roll forge of Wilkinson. These are currently used to produce ceremonial swords and scabbards for military and police forces worldwide.

However !!!!

Robert Pooley purchased sword drawings and forging machinery from Wilkinson Sword and sent them to India. He then set up his own company Pooley Sword which finishes and engraves swords forged in India.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :)

[kronckew]

shukran, ibrahim.

i see pooley has a UK website. no prices listed - i generally work on the principle that if they do not list a price, i cannot afford it. :)

...maybe i amend that if i'm haggling in a souk ;)

edited: wkc also has a site - with prices. still can't afford them :)

especially as they all seem to be stainless. i hate stainless swords.

stems from a mis-spent youth. as a cadet 1st classman, i was a asst. platoon leader for our cadet regiment (i went to a military university). i carried an issue stainless naval pattern officers sword. they fitted us individually, the length of the sword was chosen so that you did not hit the ground with the point when flourishing it in parades.

i found out why.

one of the other platoon leaders was running late one weekend for the muster before our weekly pass in review parade for the admiral and hordes of the public, including family & girlfriends, and he borrowed a sword from one of the other cadets who was ill and not attending, but was closer to the parade ground (i think he'd left his somewhere off the campus & couldn't immediately find it). the sick loaner was a good 6 in. taller than the borrower.

anyhow during the parade, as we passed the admiral & did a sword salute, his blade tip, longer than he was used to, hit the ground.

we heard a 'tink' (so did the admiral) and half the blade hit the ground in front of him. he completed the parade with a short sword, red with embarrassment and the laughter of many.

edited again:

i did order a USCG 'sword' letter opener from WKC tonight (my family has/had my full sized sword i bought when i was commissioned back in the USA) i'll hang it on a hook under my commission for remembrance.

[A. G. Maisey]

This thread looks as if it has taken a turn to the left and is moving along a slightly different road.
I mostly limit my comments in this Forum to keris and related matters, but I also have an interest in modern knives, both fixed blade and folders. In another lifetime I was a member of the Australian Knife Makers guild, and although I did not make very many complete knives, I did make quite a lot of damascus blades that I sold to other makers.

I've accumulated folders since I was very young, and like Billman I invariably carried a folder with me everywhere, including school. In primary school (sub-12 years od age) it was Richards Lamp Post, in high school it was an IXL three blade stock knife. Still carry a pocket knife everywhere. It goes on with my trousers. I use several folders, depending on what the day holds. In a suit it’s a mini Swiss Army, around the yard its one of several Boker three blade stockman's knives. My traveling companion for around 40 years has been a big, multi-blade Swiss Army.

I don't think of myself as a pocket knife collector, but I have managed to accumulate a couple of hundred folders over the years.

Anyway, on the subject of modern manufacture.

Yes, there's not much left of Sheffield, and some other traditional centres have pretty much disappeared, but to a large extent the gap has been filled by custom makers, many of whom are very reasonable in what they charge for their work.

In Sheffield Trevor Ablett and Reg Cooper are two gentlemen who still hand-make knives --- or at least they were still doing so last time I checked, but both would now be around 70 or so I guess, so they may have decided to take a break.

In the town of Scarperia near Florence in Italy there are still at least three knife factories in production, as well as a few individual makers. The oldest of the factories is the Berti concern, I think it was established in 1895. At Berti a single craftsman still makes the knife from start to finish and signs it with his initials. These are individual bench-made knives produced under the banner of a merchant.

The prices charged for the Scarperia knives, and for the work of Ablett and Cooper are extremely reasonable, considering what you are paying for. Of course, they cannot compete on price with the $25.50 that you will pay for something out of Shanghai.

Kronckew, I understand your aversion to stainless steel. Don't like it much myself, but realistically, good quality stainless, properly heat treated will perform at least as well as high carbon steel of the same quality. Both will fail if they are not properly heat treated. The reason that sword broke was not the fault of the material, it was the fault of the manufacturer because he failed to either use good quality material, or more likely, failed to correctly heat treat that material. It was a quality control issue, not a material issue.

I suppose we need to get used to the idea that most of everything we now use is made in either China or India, but who can we blame for this? Are any of us prepared to pay our own countrymen a living wage to work for us, or would we prefer to buy the product of other countries where wages and living standards are only a fraction of those which apply in developed countries?

It is the obligation under law for any corporation to maximise profit for its shareholders. This is done by paying the lowest wage possible, which results in the export of jobs --- think "call centres in Manilla", the export of manufacturing, or the creation of an underclass in our own societies.

History tells us that nothing really changes.

[Congoblades]

A large ringlock folding knive from Belgium, made in Brussels about 1900.
Size is 52 cm, a monster ...
:D

[kronckew]

i like that big bad boy! is the pattern 'damascus' or etching?

i have a very similar tho newer one. it looks smaller than yours tho. :) 'only' a 6 in. (15.25 cm.) blade, 6 ratchet notches on the lever operated lock.

[Congoblades]

i like that big bad boy! is the pattern 'damascus' or etching?


Looks like etching?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All~ I have a nice little project to bring on a small Jacknife . The other has a minute oriental stamp? ... The Knife itself came from a trader on the Persian coast. :)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A. G. Maisey]

EDIT

My apologies for the repetition.

I did not realise I'd put this up previously.

I request the moderators to remove this post with images.

Thank you.


My scribe's knife.

I rather like the idea that it is not used for the manufacture of carpets:- pens and swords are natural running mates.

[Billman]

Content deleted as double posted - see below...

[Billman]

Salaam Ibrahiim

Your rusty folder looks like a UK military style jackknife - you may find the makers name, year and MOD (WD) broad arrow (/l\) on the shoulder of the main blade. The can opener is typical of British Army knives - maybe a left over from wartime. Handles were often a black fibre board, sometimes jigged to look like bone or antler, but usually with an impressed diamond pattern - occasionally you do find real bone or antler handles ones, but these would have been bought privately, not issued..

They were also issued to British Commonwealth troops, so you may find Australian and Canadian ones - most UK ones would have been made in Sheffield, possibly also in Birmingham...

Several types of opener were fitted - later ones have a can opener incorporated. As a boy I thought the spike was for getting stones out of horses' hooves - I much later learned it is very useful when splicing ropes...

Regards

Bob

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaam Ibrahiim

Your rusty folder looks like a UK military style jackknife - you may find the makers name, year and MOD (WD) broad arrow (/l\) on the shoulder of the main blade. The can opener is typical of British Army knives - maybe a left over from wartime. Handles were often a black fibre board, sometimes jigged to look like bone or antler, but usually with an impressed diamond pattern - occasionally you do find real bone or antler handles ones, but these would have been bought privately, not issued..

They were also issued to British Commonwealth troops, so you may find Australian and Canadian ones - most UK ones would have been made in Sheffield, possibly also in Birmingham...

Several types of opener were fitted - later ones have a can opener incorporated. As a boy I thought the spike was for getting stones out of horses' hooves - I much later learned it is very useful when splicing ropes...

Regards

Bob


Salaams Billman ~ Thank you for an excellent post.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[DaveA]

I saw this new higonokami (肥後守) folder (see picture) from Japan and just had to have it, even without knowing the backstory, which is quite fascinating (see Higonokami Story (http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?87498-Higonokami-story) )

I have a few Languioles from France, a Tre Pianelle by F. Consiglio, several Navaja Estilletes and other folders, a few of which are shown in the pictures. I was happy to discover this thread today while searching the forum for higonokami. There is a fine line between a high quality hand-made folder and an ethnographic knife. I am glad other members share my enthusiasm for a fine folding knife!

Best,

Dave A.

P.S. The folding lohar doesn't count as a "pocket knife" !

[kronckew]

i've got one very much like that. fairly cheap, UK legal EDC, nice razor sharp, simple and effective. i've heard they are carried by just about everyone in japan, the equivalent of a boy scout folder of yesteryears.

[Sajen]

Want to keep this most interesting thread alive! ;)

My vintage German Solingen automatics, from left to right:

1. Herbertz in Italian style
2. Robert Klaas leverlock
3. Wilhelm Weltersbach Waidmannsheil leverlock
4. Böker Treebrand leverlock

Enjoy!

[Sajen]

And what many people don't may know, in Germany/Solingen were produced in old times balisongs. It's not mine, they are forbidden in Germany since 2003 because teenager were playing with them in public and older people were afraid by this. It's a Henry Kaufmann. Early 20th century until middle 20th century would be my age guess.

[Hombre]

Sajen wrote: "Want to keep this most interesting thread alive!"
Me too! :)
I have most newly made knives of this category but here are some of my vintage ones.... Sorry for the bad picture!

Best,
Stefan
Sweden

[ausjulius]

some russian prison made knvies being sold. prices are... fantastic for such things.. but they are many examples..

[RobT]

Hi All,

Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to the origin of this little folding knife. Overall the knife measures about 5.625" (about 14.25cm). There is no lock. The knife is opened and held open by the little loop at the back of the blade. The cutting edge is on the incurve. The little indentations near the spine apparently serve as a nail nick. The hilt is entirely brass and is composed of five pieces. The body of the hilt is a single piece of brass that has been folded to contain the blade. That fold continues all the way along the loop at the back of the hilt. There are two circular bosses on either side of the hilt body and the pivot pin runs through them. This knife is for light duty only. The Asian version of a pen knife perhaps?

Sincerely,
RobT

[Martin Lubojacky]

Not my field, but - I was told in China they used simillar (concave) knives for tonsure. But it could be any country from Iran to the east (?)

[fernando]

A rather cute piece, it is :cool: .

[RobT]

Martin,
Thanks for the response. I did two searches. In the first search (Chinese tonsure knife), everything I saw was pretty straight or electric. With the second search (antique tonsure knife) I did find a very nice antique tonsure scissor and knife set from Bangkok Thailand. The set was made for royalty and had a lot of gold on it. The knife was slightly back curved.

Fernando,
Thanks for the complement. I agree, it is very cute.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Rick]

Could this have been for cutting the betel nut; or are they too hard to use something like this on.

[kronckew]

Looks like a pruning knife. Similar small ones are used in scoring opium poppies & collecting the head later to get the seeds for next years crop. I recall seeing similar decorations on blades from northeast India near Burma.

[fernando]

... Looks like a pruning knife. Similar small ones are used in scoring opium poppies & collecting the head later to get the seeds for next years crop...
Makes sense, incurved edge and all.

[Prasanna Weerakkody]

A collection of folding Knives 17th -18th Century from the Kandy Museum Sri Lanka.

[fernando]

Very nice examples, Prasanna :cool:

[Gonzoadler]

An old spanish Navaja:

[Gonzoadler]

And inspired by it, a modern knife made by Carl Julius Herbertz: