Sundang, moro kris or whatelse?

[Flavio]

Hi all! Here is a strange beast :confused: Blade etched like a keris, ivory pommel (elephant, sea cow :confused: ) handle is horn. Scabbard wonderful. From the ganesha mouth seems to me Sulu. Could be a borneo piece? Any suggestion is welcome.

Regards
Flavio

[Henk]

In my opinion, but I'm not knowledgeable on Moro kris, this is not a Borneo piece. Scabbard and hilt point to a Phillipine piece.
Don't think the blade is etched as a keris. The result would be different.
Pommel looks more wood to me. I can't discover the ivory.
But a nice appearance.

[kai]

Hello Henk,

Pommel looks more wood to me. I can't discover the ivory.
That's not wood grain but Schrade lines... ;) :D

Thus, should be elephant. Flavio you could try measuring the exact angle to determine the genus/species. BTW, I would be interested to see an example of Moro ivory verified as being made from mammoth (which seems to have been widely traded - reaching SE Asia seems not unlikely).

Regards,
Kai

[Flavio]

Hello Henk,

pommel is definitely ivory and as Kai says, seems more elephant. The point is: the color is due to the age or it was painted to seem older?! What do you think?

Thanks

[Battara]

Elephant ivory I agree. Not Moro etching I also agree. Been glued back together - yes. Been painted - not sure but don't think so.

[Rick]

Photo six shows what looks almost like a scarf weld ? :confused: :shrug:

[Flavio]

Hi Rick,

I have this other kris with something similar, but since the blade is etched in a more "moro traditional way" it is less visible :shrug:

The horn handle seems also old, but maybe, as Jose says, put togheter with the pommel.... It is entirely unusual to see something like this on a moro kris.... or not? :shrug:

[Battara]

Not seen a horn hilt with ivory pommel before like this, but I also have not seen everything. :shrug:

[josh stout]

Photo six shows what looks almost like a scarf weld ? :confused: :shrug:

Is that the same as a "lap weld"?

I have seen a few on Chinese pieces.
Josh

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

From the photos posted, my impression is that of a Peninsular Sundang with Maguindanao origin/influence. I have seen similar etching. Pommel can be one piece with the hilt (gilded or not), if made of ebony/horn, or a separate piece of ivory. The cockatoo shape is usually more stylised (smooth). Sometimes, a cup is used instead of a ferrule. Unusual to retain the stirrup.

All the best

[Newsteel]

I do not have much knowledge about sundang but would agree with Amuk Murugul. This sundang looks Malay to me or possible Riau.

[PenangsangII]

I agree with Newsteel - the ricikan looks very Malay to me. In my opinion, it could be peninsular judging from the nyepuhan style.....and the kembang kacang

[Flavio]

I agree with Newsteel - the ricikan looks very Malay to me. In my opinion, it could be peninsular judging from the nyepuhan style.....and the kembang kacang


Newsteel,

sorry for my ignorance, but what is the nyepuhan style and the kembang kacan?

Thank you so much

Flavio

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

The scabbard suggests Riau-Lingga.

Best.

[Battara]

It is also a Sulu style in scabbards as well......

[David]

I agree with Newsteel - the ricikan looks very Malay to me. In my opinion, it could be peninsular judging from the nyepuhan style.....and the kembang kacang
Nice word "nyepuhan". I believe it refers to the temper mark left by quenching. I don't really see such a mark in the first kris shown here. Are you referring to this lastest kris Flavio posted? The mark is clear there, but that is not the kris which is under discussion.
I really don't know what can possibly be judged from the "kembang kacang" in this case as it is far too eroded to make a call on.
I have also seen this style of scabbard with Sulu kris.
I don't see anything here that would clearly indicate a peninsula origin.

:shrug:

[Rick]

I'm still wondering if that's a scarf, or lap weld on the original blade . :confused:
Could we see the other side please ?

I don't recall, in my own experience, ever seeing a scarf weld on a sundang blade .

[Flavio]

Hi Rick,

On the other side there is a similar sign, soon I will post some pics.

Thanks

[Flavio]

David,

You say you can't see anything that indicate a peninsula origin, but how do you explain the strangeness of this kris? like the non-moro etching and the horn handle? I ask just to know :p

Regards
Flavio :)

[Bill]

Flavio, It' different but the pics don't tell the whole story, at least for me.
First you have to figure what was original to the sword & I would guess nothing.
The scabbard is top grade but I doubt it's very close to be as old as the sword. It looks to me as Bugis/Malay.
I'm not sure about the blade itself. Could it be that it was over-cleaned with some sort of acid or chemicals?
The stirrup & metal rings look fairly new. If someone carried that sword everyday they would be dented/scraped.
Surprised there is not more opinions on the hilt pommel. I don't think it's horn, but I don't know what type of Ivory. Some sort of tooth? It looks like it broke, was repaired & filled; then stained to make the repairs less noticed.

[Flavio]

Thank you Bill! For sure the pommel was restored, there is some kind of putty... What I'd like to know is if also the rest of the handle is restored/replaced since a handle of horn is very strange for an "original" moro, but if it was from another place than could be original.... Anyway the collar around the pommel shows some losses, I will post some pics.

Thanks
FLavio

[spiral]

I know nothing about these blades or even the scabbard timber origins but looking at the Schreger angles the pommel is 100% Elephant ivory definatly not mamooth or any form of sea tooth..

Spiral

[David]

You say you can't see anything that indicate a peninsula origin, but how do you explain the strangeness of this kris? like the non-moro etching and the horn handle?
As for the blade Flavio it just looks like abuse and someone's perhaps misguided attempt to "restore" it. Can't speak for the hilt being horn. Could be a later addition, a marriage that is not quite traditional. A replacement. Who knows. The ivory pommel looks Moro to me though and as Spiral has pointed out, the reason there have not been more opinions on it is that it is pretty obvious even to me that it is 100% elephant ivory. A few have mentioned that they think the sheath is peninsula or Bugis in origin, but i am pretty sure i have seen this type of sheath used by the Moro and i also think that the toe of the sheath stem has a distinct Moro termination.
How is the fit of the blade in the sheath anyway? Was this sheath made for this blade?

[Flavio]

Here are some pics of both sides of the blade, the putty on the pommel and the fit with the scabbard

[Battara]

Flavio,

These pictures now give me the impression that this is not horn but something over the wood. IT can fool and look like horn. Again, I would say that twisted silver or jute was there originally.....

[Flavio]

Jose,

maybe the "horn" is somethng different, but for sure is not the putty that you can see where the pommel meets the handle. I can't be able to find the mineral spirit you told me. Can I use something else to see if the handle and the pommel were stained? Maybe another kind of diluent?

Thanks
FLavio

[Flavio]

Well, I have used a strong diluent (nitro) both on the pommel and the handle. Nothing is changed, so both were not stained and the color is due to the patination.

[Flavio]

No more comments? :shrug: I have noted that many moro collectors members often doesn't comment on others moro pieces... I can't understand why :shrug: ....

[VVV]

No more comments? :shrug: I have noted that many moro collectors members often doesn't comment on others moro pieces... I can't understand why :shrug: ....

Maybe because, based on the comments above, everybody seems to agree that it isn't Moro but Malay Peninsular (not Borneo!)?
As you know I had the same impression(quite resembling Bill's) when you mailed me before you posted it here.
Both the way the blade is etched as well as the fittings looks very much Malay Peninsular to me.
So I assume that most (pure) Moro collectors don't want to comment if they don't think it's Moro in the first place?

Michael

[Bill M]

Malay.

[Flavio]

Michael, that's good! It's always better to know if more persons think the same think more than 2 or 3, don't you think so? :)

[Andrew]

That sure looks like a scarf weld to me. I might think differently were I to handle this thing, but from the photos it looks fairly obvious. :shrug:

[Rick]

Judging from the two sides of the blade it sure looks like it may have been broken and repaired . :shrug:

Either that or it's a thinner spot on the blade . :confused:

[Flavio]

OOOOOPPPPPSSSS :p Yes Rick it's for 3 times the same side.... but you can see the other side on the pics that I have posted before :) Anyway here are pics of both sides, thank you ;)

[Rick]

Yes, stupid me . :o :o
I didn't realise until I had posted; I edited but you caught me anyway . :o :D

I don't see why this couldn't be a Philippine blade that entered a culture where keris and Sundangs are ritually etched . :shrug:

Flavio, do you think the blade was re-welded at that area ?
Is the blade any thicker or thinner there ?

[Flavio]

Hi Rick,

sorry for the delay... I was digging at an Iron age necropolis and I'm very busy :) Ah, anyone here is interested to see an iron sword with scabbard just excavated? It's just 2800 years old....! :D :cool:

Rick, the blade is neither thicker neither thinner. Simply the thickness reduces from the zone of the gangya toward the point. I don't think that is a scarf welded blade, just the lamination is made in such way :shrug: .

Thank you :)

[Rick]

Hi Flavio, thanks . :)
That is an interesting effect that I have not seen before .

[Flavio]

Hi Rick, you're welcome :)

Seems that this kris/sundang shows some peculiar aspects rare to see on other pieces :)

Flavio