Incendiary quarrels/arrows/crossbow bolts

[Matchlock]

I posted these as a preply to Stekemest's comment on the 1485 Bavarian arsenal inventory, but really wish to share them in a separate thread now.

So here they are, of 15th to early 16th century date.

The watercolor illustration is from an illuminated fireworks book dated 1442, showing just how they were actually made.
Mass production 460 years ago - under the critical eyes of a supervisor! Isn't that cute?

Matchlock

[fernando]

Undoubtfully precious items.
...And the illustrations are rather cute, indeed.
Are you familiar with the process ? What part of the material are those two guys 'cooking' ?
Fernando

[Matchlock]

The Schweizerisches Landesmuseum Zürich had them analyzed, so here they are:

1. Outer incendiary layer:
88 % sulfur
10.4 % saltpeter/potassium nitrate
1.6 % carbon

2. Inner burning mass:
13.7 % sulfur
83.5 % saltpeter/potassium nitrate
2.8 % carbon

Matchlock - well, as some of the members here have been so very nice and provided me with information by private messages, I feel that I should give my real name:

Michael

[M ELEY]

These are truly amazing items. In Gilkerson's "Boarders Away II", he shows some of these in a Swedish? museum and remarks that they were one of the earliest incendiary weapons used against the rigging of ships in naval combat, circa 16th/17th century. These are extremely rare items! Are the ones pictured yours, Michael, or are they museum pics. If they are yours, I am sick with envy!!! :mad:

[Matchlock]

These are truly amazing items. In Gilkerson's "Boarders Away II", he shows some of these in a Swedish? museum and remarks that they were one of the earliest incendiary weapons used against the rigging of ships in naval combat, circa 16th/17th century. These are extremely rare items! Are the ones pictured yours, Michael, or are they museum pics. If they are yours, I am sick with envy!!! :mad:


Hi, M ELEY,

Thanks for your nice lines.

The two incendiary quarrels on top used to be in my collection until about 15 years ago when I passed them to a friend of mine who had concentrated on earliest crossbows and stuff. My field is earliest firearms.

The ones below I photographed in the Swiss National Museum Zurich, togehter with the 'recipe'.

These earliest accouterments sure range among the greatest rarissimae on earth.

Michael

[M ELEY]

Amazing,indeed. Thanks for posting them, Michael. Would have loved to have had one for my collection, but just a little out of my price range, I suspect! ;)

[fearn]

Hi Matchlock,

Thanks for posting these. I've got to admit that I'm interested in these for intellectual reasons only, not collecting them. I have this gut-negative reaction to collecting old incendiaries and bombs, especially if they still have their original chemicals in them.

To me, the most interesting thing is that these highly reactive materials lasted as long as they did.

F

[Ed]

Unless they were stored really, really well, I doubt that there is much to fear.

[stekemest]

Great pictures, thank you very much.
I'd like to present pictures of mine, but I have no chance of taking photos at the moment (my collection is not where I am ;) ). I'll show them as soon as possible.
They are only the heads, though.
Peter

[Matchlock]

Great pictures, thank you very much.
I'd like to present pictures of mine, but I have no chance of taking photos at the moment (my collection is not where I am ;) ). I'll show them as soon as possible.
They are only the heads, though.
Peter

Peter, I would love to see your quarrel heads some time. The iron hafts should be very thin and threaded in order to enable the incendiary mass to glue. I used to have some, too.
Owning such heads is as good as anyone could normally and possibly do, anyway.
Michael

[M ELEY]

Fearn, for the most part, I agree with Ed in that they are probably inert. That being said, I won't go putting a lit fuse down my Rev War grenado powder hole any time soon. Just read a terrible story about another collector killed trying to saw a Dahlgren shell in half. Probably inactive...but why take chances! :eek:

Peter, I would also love to see your items whenever you get the chance to post them. Thanks!

-Mark

[Jim McDougall]

Fearn, for the most part, I agree with Ed in that they are probably inert. That being said, I won't go putting a lit fuse down my Rev War grenado powder hole any time soon. Just read a terrible story about another collector killed trying to saw a Dahlgren shell in half. Probably inactive...but why take chances! :eek:

Peter, I would also love to see your items whenever you get the chance to post them. Thanks!

-Mark

This whole topic is really interesting! and the discussion on old ordnance being inert or not reminds me that they are still finding unexploded bombs from WWII in Europe! In childhood our family lived near an old air base, and on one adventure, my brother and I found in a field, an old WWII bomb, which was apparantly a 500 lb. practice bomb...it was empty so not heavy, and we carried it home through town. You should have seen the looks out of windows!!!! My dad grumbled and eventually put the thing in the attic. When we moved years later, he apparantly 'forgot' and left it in the attic:) oops!

Really looking forward to more on these old incendiaries!!! Thanks!

[Bill M]

This post on incendiaries led me to a description of a gun, The Swamp Angel, (it may have been a 32 pdr) that was used with "Greek Fire" incendiary projectiles during the shelling of the city of Charleston during the American Civil War.

http://www.awod.com/gallery/probono/cwchas/swamp.html

I am particularly amused by the passage,

"Gillmore instructed Colonel Serrell to explore the possibilities of constructing a battery in the marsh between James and Morris islands. By one account, Serrell gave the duty to a young engineer lieutenant who, after examining the salt marsh, declared the project could not be done.

Serrell informed the doubting engineer that nothing was impossible and to requisition any necessary materials. A short time later, Serrell received a request for twenty men eighteen feet tall for work in the marsh. At the same time another request was sent to the department's surgeon asking him to splice three six-foot men together to make the needed eighteen-footers."

Unfortunately, though predictably Col Serrell was not amused. He replaced the young engineer and went on to build the battery.

[Matchlock]

This post on incendiaries led me to a description of a gun, The Swamp Angel, (it may have been a 32 pdr) that was used with "Greek Fire" incendiary projectiles during the shelling of the city of Charleston during the American Civil War.

http://www.awod.com/gallery/probono/cwchas/swamp.html

I am particularly amused by the passage,

"Gillmore instructed Colonel Serrell to explore the possibilities of constructing a battery in the marsh between James and Morris islands. By one account, Serrell gave the duty to a young engineer lieutenant who, after examining the salt marsh, declared the project could not be done.

Serrell informed the doubting engineer that nothing was impossible and to requisition any necessary materials. A short time later, Serrell received a request for twenty men eighteen feet tall for work in the marsh. At the same time another request was sent to the department's surgeon asking him to splice three six-foot men together to make the needed eighteen-footers."

Unfortunately, though predictably Col Serrell was not amused. He replaced the young engineer and went on to build the battery.

Unlike Col Serrell, I am amused!
Thank you for this nice contribution, Bill Marsh!

Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Me too Bill! :)
I'll have to remember that approach, well done!

[Matchlock]

This whole topic is really interesting! and the discussion on old ordnance being inert or not reminds me that they are still finding unexploded bombs from WWII in Europe! In childhood our family lived near an old air base, and on one adventure, my brother and I found in a field, an old WWII bomb, which was apparantly a 500 lb. practice bomb...it was empty so not heavy, and we carried it home through town. You should have seen the looks out of windows!!!! My dad grumbled and eventually put the thing in the attic. When we moved years later, he apparantly 'forgot' and left it in the attic:) oops!

Really looking forward to more on these old incendiaries!!! Thanks!


Hi Jim,

I hope nobody has stumbled across your left back attic bomb meanwhile ... (sarcastic rolleyes, but I do not know how to add that icon).


You asked for more incendiaries, so here they are:

- incendiary quoites (Pechkraenze); there have been several of them in big auction houses over the last years, e.g. Sotheby's, London, 15 Dec 2004

- two heavy clay grenades (Tongranaten) retaining their original black powder filling and even their original wooden fuses containing a small amount of glued powder. One of the fuses is cut in half to make the powder column visible

- a small Thirty Years War iron hand grenade also retaining its original filling and wooden fuse. Note the details of the fuse!


Enjoy those extremely rare pieces!

Best, Michael

[Matchlock]

Mind that the scale is in centimeters!

Michael

[Matchlock]

I tested small quantities of powder etc. from each of my incendiary objects, as well as powder taken out of 550 year old barrels that were still loaded (!).

My experience has shown that the old black fine powder will just sizzle and sparkle a bit but will not flash up like new black powder does.

Humidity does rarely account for it as that powder had been kept under cover and away from the air for centuries. So my theory is that the respective substances (coal, sulfur and saltpeter/nitrate), all constisting only of fine powder particles, have become de-mingled over that long period of time.

As far as I know, the first experiments with thick grained powder were made no earlier than the mid 16th century.

I would like to hear your theories on that, Gentlemen; I am not a chemist.

Michael

[M ELEY]

Holy cow, Michael! :eek: You really do have some of the rarest things I've ever seen! I wasn't even aware of incendiary quoits! My favorite piece is the 30 Years War grenado with original fuse! Incredible! I've known that the later 18th century bombs had a flattened dimple on the side to keep them from rolling away in combat or in the "fighting top" of a ship, but I never realized that these earlier models had the dimple as well. Thanks so much for posting them. I'll leave your chemistry question alone (not my area).

[Matchlock]

This is the description from Sotheby's sales catalog of 15 Dec 2004:

[Matchlock]

Don't they remind one a bit of donuts?! :D

Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Michael,
Thank you for these fantastic rare items of ordnance! (sorry about the dumb bomb story :) .
Like Mark, I'd never heard of incendiary quoits either, and these items really put perspective into the warfare of the times. Whats really amazing is that these have survived, I've never even seen them in catalogs.
Outstanding material!

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Yes, donuts...the kind James Bond would be served! Don't dip in coffee!

Actually, Jim, I enjoyed your story and it's too bad you don't still have that dummy bomb. Sounds very cool. Getting back to incendiaries, I just read an interesting story from a book on Ft Macon (a Civil War fort near Atlantic Beach,NC) called "The last Shot of the Civil War". It seems that during WWII, with all the submarine activity off our coast, the U.S. Army sent down some soldiers from New York to stay at the well-preserved bunker in case of a shore invasion. A large camp was set up, with many of the soldiers staying in the walls of the fort. One cold night, the 'yankee soldiers' decided to start a fire and used an old cannon ball as an andiron.(Not being rude here. I'm a yank myself from Ohio, but have lived in NC for 20 years) The resulting explosion flung men across the room and injured one soldier. Moral of the story- don't use ordinance in a fireplace. Moral #2- Don't anger any old Confederate ghosts! :eek:

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Mark! and great story on the cannonball in the fire!!! :)

This is a pretty interesting topic and recalls some of the items you brought up in the pirate discussions, and Gilkerson.

How were these quoits used anyway Michael ?, ignited and launched off a pole or something? I've heard of the grenades but not these.

All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

Hi Jim,

Sotheby's catalog description calls them QUOITES - is QUOITS American or just a modern version?

I have been told that they were set on fire and just thrown down from the town walls to welcome the enemy. As the sulfur and tar are said to splatter all around and make the flesh burn, the result must have been gruesome.

I also heard that they were stuck on poles to shed their light on fests in times of peace.

The are quite common in old German, Austrian and Swiss armories/museums and, as I wrote, sometimes could be purchased at auctions. The prices vary but are approximately 1,500 USD a piece.

I have four quoit(e)s, all of them different. I love them as they smell extremely old and dangerous giving my arms room the singular smell of an old armory. If you have ever been to the Landeszeughaus Graz, Austria, with more than 30,000 16th-17th century weapons you will know what I mean.

A friend of mine has a more quoit(e)s than I and would probably deaccession of one or two. Only the shipping will not be easy as they are rather fragile.
Anyone interested?

All the best to you,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Michael,
Thank you for the explanation on the use of these. The reason the term quoit is so interesting is because it is the term used for the razor sharp discs with open centers typically associated with Sikh warriors who were deadly accurate at launching them . The Hindu term Chakra usually was used until the Sikh application became quoit.

It does sound gruesome with the magma like sulfur and tar, splattering and attaching its molten presence to flesh, reminding me of the instances in less warlike circumstances of roasting marshmallows and accidentally splashed scalding liquid.

I know exactly what you mean with that semi acrid, dank smell which propels a room as you describe into battlement times of long ago.....there is nothing else that can duplicate that wonderful smell....much like that of a room full of really old books!

I have never been to the Landeszeughaus in Graz, but I do have the book about its fantastic collections, and imagine it as a sort of arms paradise.

Thank you for sharing these Michael,

All the best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

Good mornig, Jim,

It's 6 a.m. in Bavaria and I must find some sleep.

Thank you so much for explaining the semantic derivation of "quoit" - I would never have thought that.

Such highly specified knowledge, together with the high standard of formulating your pointed sentences and using elite structure shows me to things: your wide-range and at the same time manifold top level education (certainly partly self-taught) and your extreme personal energy to accomplish the rest.

Gosh, I wish I had more of your gifts. My arms hobby has made my life too one-dimensional.

Send me some lines again, if you like.

Best wishes,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Good mornig, Jim,

It's 6 a.m. in Bavaria and I must find some sleep.

Thank you so much for explaining the semantic derivation of "quoit" - I would never have thought that.

Such highly specified knowledge, together with the high standard of formulating your pointed sentences and using elite structure shows me to things: your wide-range and at the same time manifold top level education (certainly partly self-taught) and your extreme personal energy to accomplish the rest.

Gosh, I wish I had more of your gifts. My arms hobby has made my life too one-dimensional.

Send me some lines again, if you like.

Best wishes,
Michael



Michael, I am very deeply honored by these very kind compliments! Thank you! If I may, just say that my only true education has been here, on these forums, and my teachers have been the members here, who like you have openly shared thier weapons, interests and observations.

Actually, the weapons themselves truly teach us, as we seek to find the answers they hold using the often subtle clues they carry. The only knowledge I have has been from following these clues, along with the others in research into nearly every conceivable avenue of history to follow the trail.
I cannot possibly imagine the collecting and studying weapons as being in any way one dimensional, especially those of the stature of those you have shared with us here! You are much too modest Michael, and I believe I speak for everyone in saying we are fortunate to have you with us.

Thank you again! :)

All very best regards,
Jim

[fearn]

Slightly off-topic, but apropo for this thread:

Last night (10/22/08), Mythbusters, the US TV program, built and fired a korean hwacha, which is basically a mobile platform for launching 200 fire arrows (powered by blackpowder rocket motors, and exploding on impact). It was worth watching, and it looks like it will be broadcast again tonight (10/23) and 11/2 in the US.

Just FYI. It's fun to see these weapons in action.
F

[Matchlock]

The watercolors are from the 1485 Landshut/Bavaria armory inventory of which I posted some firearms illustrations in another thread.

Note that the arrows have only one point - as Stekemest wrote, a feature preferably characteristic of South German and Austrian quarrel heads. Thank you again, Peter.

The line drawings were done in the 19th century after the famous South German Hauslab manuscript dated 1442, now preserved in The Royal Armories, Leeds. The watercolors illustrating the making of incendiary arrows posted here earlier are from the same ms. Luckily, those two pages of that book were open on display when I took the photos in the Tower in 1990.

Note that the burning mass on two of the arrows is lit, with smoke curling up. The ankle that both crossbow men and harquebusiers are aiming denotes that the projectiles are planned to cross a town wall and set the wooden tiles of the houses on fire - together with ship sails the main purpose of incendiary projectiles.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Instead of attaching these, I twice enclosed the picture of the cut open fuse.

Next to the two big gray clay grenades there is the small cast iron hand grenade that I posted above.

There is an interesting story to the clay grenades. Hundreds of them were discovered in the Bavarian city of Ingolstadt in May 1983 when a subterraneous garage was built. The grenades were found alongside the old town wall stored on boards covered with straw, all perfectly preserved in the clay ground - see b/w photos.

As they weigh about 4 kilos each I would not refer to them as hand grenades. Being kept ready and primed along the town wall rather indicates that they were lit and just dropped to explode among the besiegers.

Michael

[Matchlock]

More clay grenades of the Thirty Years War, all dug up in Ingolstadt.

I found these pictures on Ebay in November 2007; one image even shows the actual weight of a (comparatively small) grenade: 2,873 kilograms. Some of them were heavily damaged, probably due to the crude teeth of the dredgers.
The fuses are all gone and I doubt whether they had retained their 'fillings' ...

Michael

[Matchlock]

Mid 15th century.

They were analyzed and X-rayed a few years ago. The substances of the incendiary mass were found to be almost the same as in the Swiss arrows in the Schweizerisches Landesmuseum Zurich (see my earlier post), with the exception that the outer layer of the Nuremberg arrows is made of tissue.

Mchael

[Matchlock]

Offered by an Italian auction house in June 2008.
Although the estimate was relatively low I think it failed to sell.

Michael

[Matchlock]

17th century, smaller and of much lighter weight than the ones dug up in Ingolstadt.


A huge iron throwing ball for a catapult above and a pair of mid 16th century miniature cannon below.

Michael

[Matchlock]

Back to incediary arrows:

Their making, from an Alamannic ow Swiss manuscript, ca. 1430.

m

[junker]

Hi,
in this year there was a great market at the Feste Coburg (Bavaria) and there a couple of people showed military fireworks in late medieval times. Also Pechkränze an lighting bags. I put here some photos of manuscript copies, which i tokk there. Remarkable were the shooting parts which were inserted in these light balls, so that anyone who will put out the Fire is in danger to be shot. They are fabricated out of a simple tube with powder and one (maybe two lead Balls) on top and will fire when the fire inside the Pechkranz will reach them.

The guy made also a book about this topic and it is german and english.
It called "Die Macht des Feuers" ISBN 978-3-87472-089-2

[M ELEY]

Awesome pics of these extremely rare combustibles. It's amazing that even in those days, weapons were designed to do the most damage, even to those trying to put them out. Dare I say 'terrorist tactics'? Would love to have one of them in my maritime collection. Perhaps someday...

[Matchlock]

Hi Marc,

A friend of mine, situated not very far from Coburg, rebuilds these Coburg 'fire bales' (Leuchtballen) as working replicas!!!

Best,
Michael

[M ELEY]

I will definately keep that in mind, Michael. Thank you! I, of course, prefer the real deals, but if I ever get time to teach local workshops at libraries,schools, etc, on maritime weapons, a replica would be great for this.

[junker]

Hi m Eley and Michael,

I saw these replicas in action at the "Zeitreise" in Autumn 2011 in Coburg.
And I learned, that the men in these times think over the problem with the shooting parts of the fire bags. They had a kind of wheelbarrow which could be put over the Fire bags with the result, that the fire might got out because of no more oxygen and the men is as well protected, if the wood is thick enough.

Dirk

[Matchlock]

Exactly, Dirk,

Thanks for the input.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Going back to the title of this thread, here comes another sample of an extremely rare 14th-16th c. incendiary crossbow bolt retaining its original burning mass. It resembles one of the two incendiary quarrels that I posted from my friend's collection in the beginning.
From the Klingbeil collection, sold in 2011, where it was in one lot together with a late 17th c. hunting crossbow.
Length 45 cm.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Sold Hermann Historica, Munich, yesterday.

Some with stamped markings but only those retaining their fuses (and probably all their fillings!) sold, and only at the estimate. That was a unique opportunity.

m

[bluelake]

Slightly off-topic, but apropo for this thread:

Last night (10/22/08), Mythbusters, the US TV program, built and fired a korean hwacha, which is basically a mobile platform for launching 200 fire arrows (powered by blackpowder rocket motors, and exploding on impact). It was worth watching, and it looks like it will be broadcast again tonight (10/23) and 11/2 in the US.

Just FYI. It's fun to see these weapons in action.
F

Sorry for the response to one of the older posts, but this is the first time I saw it. Regarding the "hwacha" episode, the executive producer of the MB show consulted with me on it. I even received a short credit (in the "thanks" portion) from them.

Back on topic--

Here is a Korean fire arrow: http://www.koreanarchery.org/images/hwajun.jpg

[Matchlock]

Hi Bluelake and Fearn,

It's fascinating to note how similar the basic structures of these Ethnographic and European items are!

Any idea as to the date of that Korean hwacha?

Best,
Michael

[bluelake]

Any idea as to the date of that Korean hwacha?

Best,
Michael

They date from the early Joseon dynasty (the dynasty ran from 1392-1910) and were used against the Japanese in their first invasion of Korea in 1592-98.

[Matchlock]

Thanks!

m

[Matchlock]

A huge incendiary gun arrow, from the Mary Rose (sunk in 1545).

m

[Matchlock]

For incendiary and other gun arrows 1330-1570, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15788

[Matchlock]

A very rare incendiary crossbow bolt of Central to Northern European type (please cf. the first image in post # 1), probably 15th to early 16th c., and retaining its incendiary mass inlcluding a short remainder of hemp matchcord, was sold from the Klingbeil Collection:
Pierre Bergé, Feb. 12, 2011, in one lot (137) together with a late-17th c. crossbow.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Better images of the incendiary bolts in post # 1, formerly in the author's collection, and now in that of a friend of mine:
the first of Central to Northern European type, ca. 14th-15th c., the incendiary mass featuring a raw linen covering and a remainder of hemp matchcord;
the second of characteristic Swiss type, ca. 14th-16th c., the incendary mass supported by a few thin wooden sticks and a raw linen binding, featuring a sulphur coating (now showing a grayish discoloration);
the third lacks its incendiary mass, thus the typical twisting of the long and thin iron neck can be seen below the head; whenever you come across an arrowhead with these features it means that originally it was an incendiary arrow, despite the fact that the head of the sample illustrated here is unusually large.

m

[Matchlock]

Please also see my related threads

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7457&highlight=unique+crossbow+collection

and

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7516&highlight=crossbow


m

[fernando]

... formerly in the author's collection, and now in that of a friend of mine ...
Oh, i wish i were that friend :shrug: .

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando, my dear friend,

On looking back, I am sure you did very well not being him!
He, just like myself, spent much more than we earned on forming highly selective collections of items like those back in the 1980's thru the early 2000's.
The outcome may result in losing our collections ... with prices going down dramatically.
No joke. :mad:

Best,
Michl

[Matchlock]

Another arrowhead twisted for an incendiary mass, similar to the lower in post # 52, was sold on ebay in 2007.

m

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Michael,
Thank you for the explanation on the use of these. The reason the term quoit is so interesting is because it is the term used for the razor sharp discs with open centers typically associated with Sikh warriors who were deadly accurate at launching them . The Hindu term Chakra usually was used until the Sikh application became quoit.

It does sound gruesome with the magma like sulfur and tar, splattering and attaching its molten presence to flesh, reminding me of the instances in less warlike circumstances of roasting marshmallows and accidentally splashed scalding liquid.

I know exactly what you mean with that semi acrid, dank smell which propels a room as you describe into battlement times of long ago.....there is nothing else that can duplicate that wonderful smell....much like that of a room full of really old books!

I have never been to the Landeszeughaus in Graz, but I do have the book about its fantastic collections, and imagine it as a sort of arms paradise.

Thank you for sharing these Michael,

All the best,
Jim


Salaams Jim ~ The term Quoit is interesting as it appears to be an English derivation possibly after 1066 from the French.

Quoit (n.) late 14c., "curling stone," perhaps from O.Fr. coite "flat stone" (with which the game was originally played), lit. "cushion," variant of coilte (see quilt).

Quoits were among the games prohibited by Edward III and Richard II to encourage archery. In reference to a heavy flat iron ring (and the tossing game played with it) it is recorded from mid-15c.

I also noted on one of my frequent trips to the UK that it is commonly played as a Pub game in the Welsh borders and in the North East of England both in and outdoors depending on the weather. The flat iron ring appears to derive from a horse shoe. A metal spike is driven into the ground wherupon contestants try to throw quoit onto the ring from a certain distance. Quite difficult with hiccups !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Matchlock]

Hi Ibrahiim,


Thank you so much for your teatise on quoits!

I found a good illustration of a 15th c. incendiary arrow in Philip Mönch's Kriegsbuch, 1496, Universitätsbiblitothek Heidelberg, Cod.Pal.germ. 126, fol. 28r.


Best,
Michael

[Eric Slyter]

I've long wondered about crossbow bolts with the twist below the head and the socket. I hadn't previously been able to find any information on them at all, except that they were possibly javelin points or made for frame-mounted crossbows. If I am to understand correctly, they are incendiary bolts then? What is the time period for them? Thanks!

[Eric Slyter]

Bump! Any further clarification on this?

[Matchlock]

Hi Eric,


It was only today that I noticed your query concerning the twisted haft of incendiary quarrel irons. I beg your pardon for not replying any earlier but as you may have gathered meanwile I was in hospital for the whole year of 2013 and can now only slowly make my way through all my posts.

As I have tried to show in this thread, all the iron heads with a very long and thin 'neck' and twisted haft seem to have been been shaped this specific way to safely hold the incendiary mass. We generally attribute them to the Late Middle Ages, ca. 14th to 16th century.
Nevertheless, many iron heads for incendiary crossbow bolts are known to show no twisting at all.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

In addition to posts #31 and 32 above, I have added two images of the array of some of the many hundreds of unusually heavy Thirty Years War clay grenades dug up in Ingolstadt, Bavaria, in 1983.

I also added an image of glass hand grenades, French, ca. 1740, found in Freiburg, and provided a link to the Wikipedia survey:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_grenade


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

As their principle is basically the same as with incendiary arrows, I'd like to introduce two extremely rare 16th-17th c. tar lances (German: Pechlanzen) in the Emden Armory.
The incendiary tar mass was set afire and the lance was hurled by some sort of a catapult onto the shingled roofs of a besieged town where the delicate iron arrowheads got stuck, and the blazing tar would splatter around. Additionally, the short barrels are barbed for better contact with the roof shingles.
The saucer-like wooden plate at the bottom was meant to direct the splashing fire right onto the roof.

The measurements are:
overall length 2.25 m
width of the tar saucer 21 cm
weight 3.2 kg

I took these photos in 1987.


m

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Michael,

Amazing that these things survived :eek:
Did the barrels shoot some sort of bullets or incendiary mass/arrows? (sort of mortar arrow ?)

[Matchlock]

Hi Marcus,


Sadly we have no records on the load of these short barrels. They are called Mordschläge (murder blasts) in German but could most probably contain literally any sort of load as their primary use was to abhor the defendors of the besieged town from trying to remove the lance from the roof of a house.


Best,
Michael

[Marcus den toom]

Aaa, yes.. those overprotective basterds and their precious roofs, i wouldn't mind if they threw on of those things on my roof (if possible not yet ignited for best preservation of course). :D

The linstock (?) next to the arrows, was this used to ignite the mass or is this just a exhibition director (from the museum) his interpretation to put it next to the arrows?

Thanks so much :)

Best,
Marcus

[Matchlock]

This is a follower to post #31-32 and #62, showing more on digging up those grenades from a historic site in May 1983.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

A few more, and a local neswpaper article of May 11, 1983.

m

[Matchlock]

Some 16th c. sources of period artwork on grenades, from top:

- Vannoccio Biringuccio (+1537), De la Pirotechnica, 1534-5, printed posthumously

- Romeyn de Hooghe (+1708), Austrian grenadiers at the Turkish Siege of Vienna, 1683: the Austrian grenadiers are depicted throwing their grenades high above the heads of the defenders against the Turks, thus taking into account losses on their own side

- as before



and some clay and glass grenades from the vast supplies preserved at Schloss Forchtenstein, Austria.



All scanned from:
Franz Felberbauer, "Die Handgranaten der Grenadiere der Fürsten Esterházy aus Gusseisen und Ton im Zeughaus der Burg Forchtenstein" (the cast-iron and clay hand grenades for the grenadiers of the Princes Esterházy, at the Armory of Forchtenstein Castle), in: Waffen und Kostümkunde, 2012, vol. 2, pp. 181-220, and 2014, vol. 1, pp. 1-52.


m

[Matchlock]

Before Felberbauer's comprehensive and topical study on the 17th c. Schloss Forchtenstein hand grenades, published in two vols. of the German Journal of Weaponry (Zeitschrift für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde) in 2012 and 2014 (see post above), there have sadly only been two tentative aprroaches to the matter, both made by Heinz-Peter Mielke in the same Zeitschrift, in 1980 (vol. 2, pp. 153f.) and 1982 (vol. 1, pp.64-66).
For those to whom German is not just an accumulation of hieroglyphs :p :D ;), I attached scans.

The first essay is on 17th-18th c. glass hand grenades in the Swiss Landesmuseum Zurich, while the second is on clay hand grenades in general (Mielke called them ceramic weapons).


Best,
Michael

[Marcus den toom]

I found this link to a manuscript about munitions and explosive devices ( Ms. Codex 109 - Helm, Franz, approximately 1500-1567 - Feuer Buech )
Maybe it has been published before but i find it rather interesting.
In the top left corner you can leaf trough the illustrattions with eas, or on the right upper corner you can browse trough every page (my post medieval German is not what it used to be so i skipped to the images ;) )

Also some other manuscripts i think on the same site.

http://dla.library.upenn.edu/dla/medren/pageturn.html?id=MEDREN_1580451&rotation=0&currentpage=392

[Matchlock]

Hi Marcus,


This the so-called Buch von den probierten Künsten (on well-tried arts), printed in 1535.

I attached some samples which are of interest in our thread although Helm's original intention was to demonstrate fireworks as a means of merrymaking.

The bottom attachments depicts a notable device quite similar to some presented by Franz Helm; Veste Coburg collections;
and two glass hand grenades for the so-called Greek Fire, 10th-12th c., and a few caltrops; National Historic Museum Athens.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

And finally I found this in my archives:

a roll of 17th/18th century matchcord for kindling hand grenades!

The grenadier just had to take out the wooden plug, pull a small length of match off that quill, light it and set fire to the fuse of the grenade. After throwing the grenade he would just push the match right back into its wooden case and replug it, and the glow would die for lack of oxygen.
Now ain't that a perfect device?

Photographs: Armin König, Germanic National Museum (GNM) Nuremberg.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Clay and glass hand grenades in the Museo d'Arte, Modena. Italia.

m

[M ELEY]

Spectacular pics, Michael!!! The Italian ones do very closely resemble the one I inquired about on the other thread! Do you have a prospective date on the last pieces posted? 17th-18th c.? or earlier? Thanks again!
Mark

[Matchlock]

Hi Mark,

The caption reads that the first two grenades are dated to ca. 1700, the third 18th c., the fourth and sixth 18th/19th c., and #6 is 18th c.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Here is an islamic hand grenade, ca. 7th to 9th c. AD, a Fatimidian (Egyptian) grenade of ca. 900-1200 AD and a few modern items, together with some older stuff.

m

[Matchlock]

I also found these iron hand grenades in an auction catalog of 2011, 10 cm diameter, probably 18th or 19th c.

m

[Marcus den toom]

Some pictures of my Pechkranze, they are some very interesting objects :D
I am very interested to learn why the fabric is at some places faintly red??

http://i62.tinypic.com/b7avi9.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/33diib6.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/2eb8ocw.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/vz8t21.jpg

[Marcus den toom]

and some more

http://i57.tinypic.com/993r6r.jpg
http://i58.tinypic.com/20qketd.jpg
http://i58.tinypic.com/125mlqe.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/x0z0g0.jpg

[Marcus den toom]

This area is even more clear, some parts of the fabric is red...
Maybe these qouites where made of reused fabric? Or is there a substance which would be used on such an item that would turn this fabric red?


http://i60.tinypic.com/2m64sr5.jpg

[Andi]

Hello Marcus ten toom! Thank you for this phantastic images. Where you have taken them?
Regarding the red fabric I think that most probably the fabric was taken from worn garments. There is absolutely no need to weave a fabric especially for the quoits. In former times fabrics had a much higher value compared to modern times, especially when no automatic machines were available for fibre processing, spinning, weaving, dyeing and sewing. From archaeological excavations many examples for reused worn garments are present such as toilet papers, fillings of blind building structures, relic packings and decoration, textile appliqué on newer garments, caulk material for ships and so on.. - But what makes me wonder is the red colour. In former times dyeing linen in red colour was very difficult, this could be affordable by an aristocratic, clerical or noble elite.
But the red colour as result of a chemical process with the incendiary matters would be an interesting question.

[Matchlock]

Hi Andi and Marcus,

You are right, for making items like quoits old garments were frequently employed. The qouits in my collection though consist of braided willow rods wrapped in white linen.
In the Landeszeughaus Graz there are many trapezoid powder and priming flasks of ca. 1540-60 the wooden bodies of which are covered with fabric from Late Gothic chasubles (see attachments).

m

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Andi and Michael,

Thank you both for your answer, the reusing of fabric seemed the most likely to me as well, only the fact it was red seemed odd.

Well Andi, this great collection can be found in the Netherlands at castle "Toom" :P (not really a castle, but just my own room).

I wonder how they came by those Gothic chasubles, maybe at the church flea market??? :confused: :rolleyes:

[Andi]

Last Thursday i have been at Museum Veste Coburg in northern Bavaria and had a long and very interesting conversation with the museums director Dr Alfred Geibig who gives me some valuable hints. The red colour of the fabric in Marcus den tooms qouites can be a result of a chemical reaction of mercury and sulfur forming cinnabar compounds. Cinnabar is a bright red pigment which was often used in arts. Many early authors of fireworks books and works on blackpowder were recommending the addition of metals such as mercury to powder mixtures. According to modern chemical knowledge the mercury as no positive effect on the powders brisance and its use was maybe based on a spiritual background according to early alchemy.

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Andi,

Thank you for this information, i think that your story might be more applicable to my qouites. Though the reusing of fabric is a know fact, it seems unlikely to use a expensive dye on a crude fabric as those on my qouites... :confused:
Also, such a expensive piece of coloured fabric would likely be reused on something else than pitch drenched wreaths :D :cool:

[Andi]

Hello Marcus

Is the textile braid on this image visible by an damage of the quoits surface or was it brought outside by intention - probably as a ligting fuse/match? As far as I understood the publications of Dr. Alfred Geibig no quoits were known so far where a lighting match was visible on the outside.

Do you know where your - very nice - quoits were originating from?

http://i58.tinypic.com/125mlqe.jpg

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Andi,

I can see no damages to this part of the qouites, but i do notice a ridge of dried pitch.. like it stood upright when it dried. I think this piece of fabric somehow escaped the pitch. One remarkable thing i noticed is how smooth the outer surface of this example is, it really looks like someone tried to create something nice rather than a monstress ring from hell :D

They came from the "veste Coburg" , Germany.

[Eric Slyter]

Thanks for the information on the incendiary heads, Matchlock, and I hope you are fully recovered!

[Matchlock]

Hi Eric,

Thank you so much for wishing me well.
I'm afraid though that nothing will ever change.
The specialists at an orthopedic clinic told me they could not really do anything for me that my health insurance would pay for. I have to face the facts that disability, extreme pain in spite of opium and other pain 'killers' will be unavoidable, and so be will limited stays at hospitals every few weeks.

Best,
m

[Andi]

Hello Michael

Keep going - don't let it get you down! I deeply wish that your health will improve.

[fernando]

Hello Michael

Keep going - don't let it get you down! I deeply wish that your health will improve.

http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/207.gif (http://cool-smileys.com//clapping-smiley)

[Matchlock]

Thanks a zillion, pals!

You make my return to the forum feel a whole lot like comin' home! ;)

Best,
m

[Matchlock]

Hello Marcus

Do you know where your - very nice - quoits were originating from?

http://i58.tinypic.com/125mlqe.jpg



Hi Andi,

What even Marcus most probably does not know: his quoits, just like two of some specimens in my collection, came from an old Austrian collection based in Linz/Austria; the owner, whom I knew well, sadly died some time ago.

Best,
m

[Matchlock]

Hello Marcus
Is the textile braid on this image visible by an damage of the quoits surface or was it brought outside by intention - probably as a ligting fuse/match?
As far as I understood the publications of Dr. Alfred Geibig no quoits were known so far where a lighting match was visible on the outside.


That's right, Andi,

The outer layer always seems to have been either black tar mingled with black powder, or sulphur that turned from yellowish to a grayish white in the course of the centuries.
On a couple of quoits in the Museum Nordico (City Museum) of Linz/Austria though, the wound matchcord can still be seen beneath the crumbly mixture of tar and black powder (attachments, author's photos of 1989).
In the background, a bundle of matchcord for muskets is displayed, and on the right hand side there are lots of crossbow bolts, the hafts grown musty.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Here are two of the quoits (German: Pechkränze) that came from the inventory of the old Veste (fortress) of Coburg, Northern Bavaria.
They consist of matchcord soaked in tar and wound around a wooden ring core; their diameter differs between 40 and 45 cm, the average weight is 2.5 kg.
The second, smaller type of quoits attached features intertwined matchcord; at a diameter of ca 30 cm, their weight is only 500 grams.
Source: Alfred Geibig: Gefährlich und schön. Coburg, 1996, p. 122f.

m

[Andi]

Two photos of two hemp rope quoits I made at Veste Coburg two weekends ago - unfortunately I hat not mutch time to see the exhibition so I just quickly shot the photos without any preparations against the refelctions on the show case glass screens. --- I have to visit the museum again having more time for the exhibition :shrug:

[Matchlock]

Thanks so much, Andi,

For those good photos!!!

Best,
Michael

[Eric Slyter]

Hi Matchlock

I wanted to run this article by you, regarding those twisted socket arrowheads:

http://www.tameshigiri.ca/2014/03/14/oddities-of-archery-twisted-sockets/

I've come across these examples of twisted arrowheads. My organization is considering getting one of these for our traveling display of medieval antiquities, which is why I've been so curious about them.

102 mm long:

http://www.knightsofveritas.org/arrow1.jpg


75mm long:

http://www.knightsofveritas.org/arrow2.jpg


80mm long:

http://www.knightsofveritas.org/arrow3.jpg


88mm long:

http://www.knightsofveritas.org/arrow4.jpg

[Matchlock]

Hi Eric,


You can of course never tell for sure when confronted with Medieval relics but in my opinion, and in all probability, these arrow shaped heads with the twisted hafts were used together with an incendiary mass.
The latter would probably stick more safely on a twisted haft.

Illustrated at the right-hand side of the attached photos is a crossbow bolt with its incendiary mass now missing.


Best,
Michael

[Andi]

Let me take the opportunity to post some photos of the Fire or Light Balls (in German: Feuerballen, Leuchtballen, Leuchtfässer or Sturmfässer) form the permanent exhibition of Veste Coburg, Bavaria, Germany. Please excuse the reflections on the photos as I had not much time to prevent them.

The large containers (Leucht-/Sturmfässer) on the second and third image and the 3 from the right on the fourth image, are really huge they have diameters between 27-33 cm and height ranging from 26 - 50 cm. The inner construction is a rough wooden barrel covered in a linnen fabric and overknitted with hemp ropes.

The smaller Fire Balls (Image 1 and 5) have dimensions of a coconut. One is with small projectiles (German: Mordschlägen) which are missing on the other model with the visible hole. They were made of a linnen bag filled with a highly flammable mass of blackpowder, sufur, salpeter and others. They are also overknitted with hemp ropes. They are dated probably to 17th Century.

Unfortunately the forums software mixed up the intended order of the images.

[Matchlock]

Another great job, Andi,


Thanks a lot for showing these rarities!

May I add the average measurements:
the bigger barrels used in attacking a fortress (Sturmfässer): ca. 30-38 x 30-45 cm,
the gleaming 'bulbs' (Leuchtballen): 14-17 x 16-20 cm.

They most probably date from the Thirty Years War (1618-1648).

Diverging from the norm, I attached an image of an exact replica of a Coburg Leuchtballen, made by Armin König, to illustrate the construction containing small grenades (Mordschläge).

Quite nasty things - the terms downplaying their dangerousness ...


Best,
Michael

[Andi]

Tonight we have launched some pages about incendiary devices and grenades on our web page (Sorry that they are available in German language only but we hope get them translated into English in the near future)

http://bummsbrigade.de/cms/index.php/de/zeug/feuerwerk

[Matchlock]

Great site, Andi, :) :cool:


And perfectly researched and illustrated as well, providing tons of historic material from original sources (14th to 16th century manuscripts and books)!
An exemplary and highly commendable site, also from an academic point of view!

Everybody interested in early warfare and earliest firearms - GO THERE!


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Please see my new thread
on THE ONLY KNOWN EXISTING INCENDIARY GUN ARROW, 14th-16th century:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18481&highlight=incendiary

Best,
Michael

[Aerinsol]

After hearing a lot about this forum from my husband (Andi), I decided to drop in, too :p

Thank you very much for all the great information and fotos in this thread (and in many others)!

As a kind of introduction, I'd like to show you what we did in our backyard on sunday: Video "Burning incendiary quoit" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltYBnK2ZZSM)

Of course this is a reconstruction, not an original :rolleyes:
It was only our first try, so don't expect too much - and naturally we are a little hampered by current legislations (not being allowed to simply use black powder etc.)

The core was made of straw, wrapped in nitrified linnen, coated with a mixture of tar and sulfur and then coated in charcoal.

Hope you enjoy it anyway!

[Matchlock]

... sold with Sotheby's, London, in December 2004.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

This large iron grenade, 18th century, diameter 21 cm, was sold for 230 Eruo plus 23 per cent commision, on May5, 2014, Hermann Historica's, Munich.

m

[Andi]

Our first experimental of burning a reconstructed medieval pitch garland (fire crown, quoit; German: Pechkranz) on 4. May 2014. The pitch garland was made of a ring of straw, bandaged with nitrated linnen and coated with tar and sulfur, covered by second winding of linnen with tar powdered with charcoal dust. It was built according to descriptions in medieval fireworks books such as Martin Merz: Büchsenmeisterbuch, South Germany 1420. The experiment did not meet our expectations and proved some constructional fault as it took too long until the pitch garland starts burning after igniting the match and its burning time was too long and the flames and smoke emission was too harmless.

Here a link zu a short video on youtube

http://youtu.be/JRIv19BFubA

The following image shows the highlit of the test.

[Matchlock]

Hi there,


I almost forgot to introduce this very rare item that has been in my collection since the 1980's. I have not touched it for many years because is stored hidden behind my small Giech Schlänglein or Tarrasbüchse (from Latin terra, meaning earth), re-using a Nuremberg cast bronze haquebut barrel of ca. 1470 struck with the arms of the Counts von Giech. This cute early 16th century 'cannon' comes from Schloss Thurnau near Bayreuth, Franconia/Northern Bavaria, via Sotheby's in 1996.

I discovered it in one of the numerous narrow but lofty 13th-14th century houses forming the Late Medieval city center of Regensburg, Bavaria. After graduating from university in 1982, I rented an apartment in an eight-storeyed 13th century house and soon started exploring both the two-storeyed cellar with its vaulted ceiling arching seven meters high, as well as the three-storeyed roof timbering where many old things were stored.
One day I almost fell when stepping on a thick but rather unsound and friable plank. Beneath it, in the false ceiling there was an amorphic mass of rotten textiles, straw, mummified pidgeons and deadwood, but also a greyish stone ball with something sticking out on its top. Amazed by the weight of the thing, I carefully took out a thumb sized tapering piece that literally had no weight. It contained some dark porous stuff center and uncovered a vertical hole in the ball. At first I thought that I had found a cannon ball but when I took the stone downstairs to my flat I met the elderly couple that owned the house. They told me that I could keep the item. In my apartment, I shined a flashlight into the hole, stuck my forefinger in and when I extracted it it was covered with fine black meal powder. By then I realized that this must be a very old grenade.
A few years later I read about the Thirty Years War clay grenades dug up in Ingolstadt, together with their fuses (see posts # ... and ... ), and acquired two specimens but I have never across another limestone grenade. It is especially notable for retaining its original fuse.

With a weight of 3.1 kilos, it is much heavier than the Ingolstadt clay grenades and, just like them, must have been dropped down on the enemies from a house or a wall.

Please also see my thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12687&highlight=giech


I will also post the huge iron grenade or cannon ball soon that can be seen on the photos.
The sacristy cupboard on the right dates from ca. 1540; the wooden 'feet' have been shortened, and the former top piece with the Gothic crenelation is missing.


Enthroned on top of the cupboard is my highly important four-barrel Landsknecht mace of ca. 1540 that comes from the world famous Samuel and Llewellyn Meyrick collection, in 1830:

http://www.royalarmouries.org/about-us/brief-museum-history/history-of-the-collection/early-scholars/samuel-rush-meyrick

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8179&highlight=meyrick+mace




Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

.

[Andi]

Here are two images I made yesterday at Nuremberg Kaiserburg (Imperial Castle) Museum of fire balls used for Lustfeuerwerk (decorative fireworks) dated to 18th century. Diameter of the small balls are approx. 5-6 cm only! The large one has a diameter of approx. 8 cm height approx. 10-12 cm.

[Andi]

Remains of an Ottomani fire arrow found during archaeologcial excavations of a water well at Wilhelm-Lebsaftgasse 3, 3400 Klosterneuburg, Austria in 1970. Length 383 mm max. diameter ca. 50 mm. Dated to ca. 1683. At display at Stadtmuseums Klosterneuburg, Austria.

Further info in German: http://insmuseum.com/post/24187616759/brandpfeil-lat-malleolus
and a short one in English: http://stadtmuseum.klosterneuburg.at/seite/stadtgeschichtebild_engl_04.html

[Matchlock]

Well done, Andi;):cool:!


Thanks so much for detecting, and sharing, that great 2nd half 17th c. Ottoman incendiary arrow.

I have linked your post to my thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=170621#post170621

That rare instance has been preserved at the Stadtmuseum of Klosterneuburg (museum of the City of Klosterneuburg) located at the Danube River, near Vienna, Lower Austria) ever since The Second Great Siege of Vienna by the Turks, 14 July through 12 September 1683!
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Battle_of_Vienna#mediaviewer/File:Casteels_Battle_of_Vienna.png

Please also cf. my thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14071&highlight=combined+wheellock+matchlock+Suhl+Austri a



Best,
Michael

[Andi]

Just found on Internet Archive:
Page 15 of American Art Association: European arms and armour, mainly XV-XVI & XVII centuries. New York : Anderson Galleries, 1928. https://archive.org/details/europeanarmsarmo00amer_0

Its funny they write that this objects were found in a castle near Switzerland (where? In Austria, Liechtenstein, Germany, Italy, or France) :shrug: and that times (1928) it is most convincable that such pitch garlands were not shown in European museums or collections, as they were not so decorative like metallic arms and armour.

[Marcus den toom]

Two more books on the art of "feuerwerk" from 1420's and 1462. (links can be traced back to the beginning of the Ms).

http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/37/jpg/2000
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/36/jpg/2000
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/35/jpg/2000
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs25801/35/jpg/2000
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs25801/39/jpg/2000


These 2 pictures i found very interesting. The first link is that of the Grandes Chroniques de France 1332-1350 (http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer.aspx?ref=royal_ms_16_g_vi_f181v).
It shows a box with roped sticks (?) which are lit. the second link shows a page from the 1420s feuerwerkbuch with a similar roped stick.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/42/32/1a/42321af77533b23ad24cab1e53aba85d.jpg
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs25801/46/jpg/2000


And on an unrelated note, these pictures of barrel drilling i wanted to share.
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/26/jpg/2000 (?)
http://dlib.gnm.de/item/Hs719/27/jpg/2000

[Matchlock]

Hi Marcus,

These sources of period illustrations are really very valuable discoveries - thank you so much!!!
You must have been quite busy toiling your way through all these Medieval codices for weeks, and tracing back the spare links which are hard enough to detect - though trying various key words on the Google search;) ...

Again, a great big thanks for sharing those historic treasures,
and best as ever,
Michl

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Michl,

It is indeed a huge labour to leave trough all those manuscripts, hoping to find a single piece which interest us.. though very well worth it in the end :D especially when complimented like this. (it must have taken me 3 hours to get trough the Historique de France) :O

My goal for the past year has been to find even older sources than the Milemete manuscript.. evidence for guns in the late 13th and eealy 14th century (we know they should exist from written sources, but illustrations begin at 1326). I know it is a long shot but alonf the way i find many other very interesting things.

[Matchlock]

Hi Michl,

My goal for the past year has been to find even older sources than the Milemete manuscript.. evidence for guns in the late 13th and eealy 14th century (we know they should exist from written sources, but illustrations begin at 1326). I know it is a long shot but alonf the way i find many other very interesting things.


You've been readin' my mind:D, Marcus,

That's exactly what our troublesome search is all about - and I am absolutely convinced we will detect a source of illustration earlier than the two 1326-27 de Milemete mss., and in all probability even before 1300!

Powder and gun arrows must have been known, and employed, in Old Europe as well. Not only the Ancient Greek and Roman Empires used incendiary/fire arrows thousands of years ago - they were widely spread in Arabia as well. In China and Japan, people had been experimenting with incendiary and exploding stuff at least since the 13th c., and today we realize that the Vikings had landed on the North American east coast hundreds of years before Columbus and Amerigo Vespucci did.
After all, the Vikings doubtlessly were the most skilled and fearless sailors of the Middle Ages; they built the best ships and had a depth of knowledge of how to navigate just guided by the stars which the rest of 13th c. Central Europeans never even dreamed of at the time.

Best,
Michl

[Andi]

I would interpret this image the 7 lighted sticks on the first image of the Grandes Chroniques de France 1332-1350 (http://www.bl.uk/manuscripts/Viewer...s_16_g_vi_f181v) as twisted beeswax candles made of two strings of beeswax wisted around each other. As shown on this younger illustrations from the Constance Council in 1465 showing clergymen distributing such hallowed candles or the third image of Friedrich Pacher from Brunek dated to 1480 showing St. Blasius with such a twisted candle. This type of candles is very common in the european medieval period. These images are the ones I had at hand, but there are also older images present.
And there are also exists some contemporary written sources about this special type of twisted candles.

[Matchlock]

I came across a very interesting site by Manuel Maniezzo on Pinterest:
https://www.pinterest.com/mandimartel/
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Matchlock]

For mid-16th illustrated sources please see:
http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.de/2012/11/early-explosives.html

m