Interesting Lumad sword

[Ian]

... just finished on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7320338615

This is a rare and well made saber that is not Moro in origin, although misidentified as such on eBay, but comes from the Kaolu (aka Kaolo, Tagakaolo) who are a Lumad tribe living near Davao City on the east coast of Mindanao. I own another one of these, but I do not know the local name for the sword.

Having handled two other examples apart from the one I have, the one that just finished on eBay is the best I have seen.

Ian.

Pictures of Kaolu Sword posted previously:
http://www.vikingsword.com/i3/f0008c.jpg

http://www.vikingsword.com/i3/f0008d.jpg

[Spunjer]

the one on ebay is definitely a beautiful piece ian. nice score!
btw, since zel is still(?) in mindanao, he might see this post and prolly ask around...

[capt.smash]

I had a last min snipe bid but i didnt go high enough[i suspect not nearly high enough :) ]....IMHO it went quite cheep.

[VVV]

Congratulations Ian!

Michael
aka testpilot15 (no 2 on the bidding list)

[Ian]

....IMHO it went quite cheep. Smashy, I don't really know how the market values Lumad swords these days. Some Bagobo and Mandaya swords seem to have taken off lately, but prices on other Lumad weapons remain depressed. Recently, we have seen a couple of nice Bagobo and Mandaya bolos in the $300-400 range and even a little higher. IMO I think the Kaolu sword that just sold on eBay is every bit as good as the better known Bagobo and Mandaya swords that sold for more in the last few months. Your comment may have a lot of truth.

I've been collecting Lumad swords for about ten years, mainly buying on trips to Manila and Davao City, plus a few items off eBay. Up until about three years ago it seems that very few people were interested in Lumad weapons. Good quality, older pieces were available for relatively little, and there was no real buying competition in the marketplace. Discussions here may have helped highlight these weapons, but the main influence has been the increased marketing of these swords out of Davao City as Moro weapons have become harder for dealers to find.

As Moro weapons become even more scarce (at least the older ones of better quality) we may see a further rise in popularity of the Lumad weapons. Certainly, there is an attempt to pass off some Lumad items as "Moro," but that may be partly a lack of knowledge rather than deliberate misinformation. A buyer needs to be careful and well informed about Lumad weapons to avoid making mistakes. I think knowledge has increased among collectors in recent years.

[Ian]

Congratulations Ian!

Michael
aka testpilot15 (no 2 on the bidding list)
Thanks Michael. Sorry to beat out a fellow forumite. You have a good eye for quality. ;) If I come to sell it some day, I'll give you first call.

Ian.

[Spunjer]

herein lies the proverbial catch-22. no one knows these types of weapon up until recently. the more enlightened ones among us tries to shed some light as to the what, who, when, where of these weapons and by doing that it really helps the rest of us newbies who are still learning as we go along. but everytime a "new" weapon is introduced, the collector in us wants to get a specimen of that certain type, now that we know what it is.

when i first got on this message board, it was because i would like to know more about what i have in my collection; i'm sure there are members here that started the same way. after a while as one's knowledge grew, it becomes more of an obsession, the 'i need one of those on my collection' syndrome.

so the question is, do we discuss these "unknown" swords and by doing so we learn about it, respect it, and have more appreciation of it, or do we just keep it to ourselves, therefore not drive up the price to new high level? a good example to this are the visayan weapons. actually, if you look at the pattern on ebay, it's mostly us, as in members of this forum, whose driving the price of these swords. catch-22, indeed...

[Ian]

Thanks Spunjer. I agree we have probably contributed to some of the changes in the market place by talking openly about uncommon or obscure weapons. ;)

This is a decision that we each face. Some people choose one way, others another way. Personally, I favor spreading the knowledge around. I get as much, if not more, enjoyment from talking about these weapons with other interested collectors, than keeping information to myself so that I can accumulate another dozen cheap examples of a sword nobody else cares about or understands what it is.

There is probably a larger number of people who think otherwise. Some of them are probably lurking on this Forum as I write this. :eek: I don't have a problem with that. Making a profit from my collection is not a life goal -- if I was a dealer I might feel differently. More improtant to me is the sharing of knowledge, particularly in areas for which there is no handy reference book or accessible data.

This Forum is a great place to hang out and learn about ethnographic edged weapons -- I hope we all continue to share what we know without too much thought about who might be lurking or possibly competing for prized weapons. :)

Ian.

[Rick]

Eight years ago ; $11.00 incl. shipping .
Alas , no more . :(

[themorningstar]

it's a sundang... :)

[Ian]

themorningstar.

Thanks for the information. Would you care to comment on the influences that seem to have contributed to this sword -- Spanish, Moro, Visayan?

[Spunjer]

well said, ian...

[tom hyle]

Is it chisel bevelled? Do you not see a (close) resemblance to matulis?

[philkid]

Hi guys, glad you liked the "lumad" sword I have posted on ebay. Thanks for the clarification. I really thought it was Moro because I bought it from a Maranao.

[Federico]

Hi guys, glad you liked the "lumad" sword I have posted on ebay. Thanks for the clarification. I really thought it was Moro because I bought it from a Maranao.
Ive seen a couple other swords similar to this one, which were bought from Maranao, so you arent the only person who has encountered this phenomena. I wonder why a lumad sword would first be sold to a Maranao middleman and then to a Christian Filipino. Apparantly must be a common practice.

[Bill]

TheMorningStar, what is your definition of a Sundang, this sword form, or a sword made for fighting? Anyone care to put a age bracket for this form? The hilt form is not that far from Maranao type punals & gunongs, & the metal stampings would be consistant with Maranao, but also seem to fall short of the detail, somewhat generic.

[Ian]

Ive seen a couple other swords similar to this one, which were bought from Maranao, so you arent the only person who has encountered this phenomena. I wonder why a lumad sword would first be sold to a Maranao middleman and then to a Christian Filipino. Apparantly must be a common practice.
Federico:

The answer is simply based on how the local market works. Over the years, the market has been much stronger for Moro weapons than Lumad weapons. Those who bring weapons to the dealers in Davao City and other "disposal" points have been Muslims dealing in Moro weapons. Now, if I have a Lumad sword and want to get a good deal, but have no good contacts to sell it, then I'll sell it to the guy who has those connections (or maybe he takes it on commission). So the Moro seller becomes an agent for other types of swords, which suits his purpose also when the supply of Moro weapons starts to dry up.

Win-win situation all round.

I have sat in antique shops in Manila and watched Muslims from Mindanao come by and try to sell a variety of wares from Mindanao to the Manila dealers. Often included in their offerings are T'boli, Bagobo and Kaolu items. The seller knows what he has, and if confronted with a direct statement, such as, "That's a Bagobo knife," will readily acknowledge the true origin of the piece. Otherwise he will try to lump them all as "Moro" because he will get a better price that way. Caveat emptor!

[Ian]

Hi guys, glad you liked the "lumad" sword I have posted on ebay. Thanks for the clarification. I really thought it was Moro because I bought it from a Maranao.
Not a problem. IMO it is more common to see misidentified Lumad knives and swords than those with a correct attribution.

[Federico]

Federico:

The answer is simply based on how the local market works. Over the years, the market has been much stronger for Moro weapons than Lumad weapons. Those who bring weapons to the dealers in Davao City and other "disposal" points have been Muslims dealing in Moro weapons. Now, if I have a Lumad sword and want to get a good deal, but have no good contacts to sell it, then I'll sell it to the guy who has those connections (or maybe he takes it on commission). So the Moro seller becomes an agent for other types of swords, which suits his purpose also when the supply of Moro weapons starts to dry up.

Win-win situation all round.

I have sat in antique shops in Manila and watched Muslims from Mindanao come by and try to sell a variety of wares from Mindanao to the Manila dealers. Often included in their offerings are T'boli, Bagobo and Kaolu items. The seller knows what he has, and if confronted with a direct statement, such as, "That's a Bagobo knife," will readily acknowledge the true origin of the piece. Otherwise he will try to lump them all as "Moro" because he will get a better price that way. Caveat emptor!

Thanks for the details, one of these days Im gonna have to make it to Moroland, sounds like a fascinating market.

[Conogre]

The disemination of knowledge often increases both understanding and appreciation for previously little known weapons, and as the information becomes more wide spread the "value" often increases accordingly.
I've been lucky in the past by taking chances on pieces that appeared to have age and be genuine while having absolutely no actual knowledge on what I was buying/bidding on at the time while getting burned very infrequently.....my Bagobo sword, for instance, was purchased when they were still generally thought to be "recently manufactured replicas of Moro pieces" for $35.00.
Ian, in particular, has probably contributed as much or more information about Lumad swords and knives than anyone I can think of, and I for one have expressed my personal gratitude to him for sharing his wealth of information, even though it probably has had an inflationary unintended result, but even that is a double edged sword (no pun intended)
While we may carp occasionally about the now high prices, I can't, in all honesty, begrudge the people who made, owned and used these magnificent pieces sharing in their true worth as opposed to getting robbed as happened so often in the past, with only dealers making any profit.
Mike

[zamboanga]

Ive seen a couple other swords similar to this one, which were bought from Maranao, so you arent the only person who has encountered this phenomena. I wonder why a lumad sword would first be sold to a Maranao middleman and then to a Christian Filipino. Apparantly must be a common practice.

i think there is a bit of chance that the lumad sword mentioned here is maranao made. but that's just my opinion. i used to have a maranao made jian and pira.

by the way, the tagacaolos are said to be a branch of the mandayas.

[mmontoro]

That's a very nice shield, Mike.

[Ian]

i think there is a bit of chance that the lumad sword mentioned here is maranao made. but that's just my opinion. i used to have a maranao made jian and pira.

by the way, the tagacaolos are said to be a branch of the mandayas.
Good point Z.

The one on eBay appears to be more recently made, or perhaps assembled, than the example for which I show pictures above. Coins on the one above date to the 1930s -- which doesn't necessarily mean much, but suggests pre-WWII manufacture and the overall condition would tend to confirm that age.

Maranao swords and knives made in the last 50 years or so have included "non-traditional" styles, perhaps based on other local weapons. Sale to the tourist trade may explain part of this trend.

I have seen other sabers coming from the Maranao dating to the second half of the 20th C. Many of these had Eastern-style knuckle guards and pointed scabbards with silver tips. I'm not sure what style of sword they were emulating.

[Battara]

It seems that since the Morolands have been cut off a little due to the violence, the flood of newly made Moro stuff has turned into a trickle. This plus the interest in Moro seems to have dried up the market and (as mentioned already on the forum) the prices for lumad has been rising. Katipunan is beginning to do the same thing and I expect soon Igorot will also. My question is when will the market stabilize (or fall)?

[Rick]

Generally speaking the market may stabilize but it's very doubtful it will fall .
Arms Collectors are a niche market but a very old one , unlike beanie babies the interest never seems to flag .
As the antique swords disappear into personal collections the prices for the remaining pieces will most likely rise .
Consider mediaeval swords , how many among us could afford to collect them these days ?
The further and faster we move into the future , the more we will attempt to cling to the past .
Imagine what a Desert Eagle 50cal pistol will bring when there are no more projectile weapons .

Just my opinion , but I know that my collection of arms has outperformed the Stock Market by a substantial margin in the last 5 years .

How about yours ?

[zamboanga]

In the early 1900s when Americans came to Mindanao to grab its rich natural resources, a Tagacaolo leader took it upon himself to retaliate the foreigners.

In 1906, this lumad leader assassinated the American governor for Davao. What came next is never reported in Philippine history - the americans took a huwes de kutsilyo or scorched earth policy against the tagacaolos. no one was spared in the massacre - men, women, children, even animals. The massacre only stopped when the assassin himself was killed.

[Ian]

Z:

Great piece of history but not unique in the annals of US occupation of the Philippnes. I believe something similar happened in Samar after a US garrison was wiped out by local insurgents.

Do you have a good reference that describes the assassination of the US Governor of Davao and the subsequent massacre?

Ian.

[Spunjer]

ian, here you go:

Scorched earth policy, germ warfare and the Americans in Davao in the early 1900s


DAVAO CITY -- “Huwes de kutsilyo,” mass poisoning, germ warfare.

A book launched here last Friday at the University of the Philippines-Mindanao’s city campus has an entire chapter that deals with accounts of how US forces nearly a century ago countered resistance from natives of Davao with ‘huwes de kutsilyo’ or scorched earth policy similar to what happened in Samar in 1901, mass poisoning and germ warfare.

The book, “Davao 1890-1910: Conquest and Resistance in the Garden of the Gods,” written by Dr. Macario D. Tiu of the Ateneo de Davao University, was initially intended only as a research to fill the gaps of the 1906-1908 period in Davao history about the unrest in the Davao Gulf highlighted by the assassination of Davao District Govenror Edward C. Bolton on June 6, 1906, by Mangulayon, the deputy headman of the Tagacaolo.

Its working title then was “Lumad Struggles in Davao: 1906-1906.” But Tiu’s research would expand in its scope and time and place and took more than two years to complete instead of the project timeframe of one year.

The book, published by the University of the Philippines’ Center for Integrative and Development Studies, has seven chapters, the first three classified as “Hard Documents,” as it relied mainly on written Spanish and American documents, the last four as “Memory Documents” as it “relied mainly on the documents archived in the minds of the local people.”

Oral accounts were gathered from some 200 informants from 20 towns and cities along the Davao Gulf, representing 14 tribes and some settlers.

The first three chapters deals with the 1890-1899 contest for territory; the 1900-1910 establishment of American hegemony; and resistance and the assassination of Bolton; the last four chapters on plantation economy, forms of resistance, and the death of Bolton; an entire chapter on Mangulayon; American Atrocities in Davao: Huwes de Kutsilyo and Germ Warfare; and the Dance of Resistance.

Chapter 6 begins with a description of how Americans occupied Davao “peacefully in 1899 as the inhabitants did not offer any resistance.”

“But when the Americans began to transform Davao into plantations and forced the natives to work in these plantations, they began to resist. By late 1905, unrest was sweeping Davao Gulf. From Lupon, Datu Tomaros and Datu Compao spread a dance that alarmed the Americans, while in Malalag, the datus were meeting in early 1906 to discuss how to kill all the American planters from Digos down to Malita. The uprising was signaled by the assassination of District Governor Edward C. Bolton by Mangulayon on 6 June 1906, and the looting of planter McCullough’s store in Kibulan. In response, the Americans unleashed the scorched-earth policy on the natives of Davao del Sur.”

Tiu noted that American atrocities in many parts of the country during the Philippine-American war are well-documented, including the wars against the Moros, “but nothing about these atrocities in Davao were ever recorded.”

Tiu said the first hint came from Anita Hughes Diel, daughter of American planter Orval Hughes of Malalag, who, in an interview on December 6, 1999, said, “my father told me that when Bolton was killed, the Americans launched a huwes de kutsilyo from Digos to Malita. All males from 14 and above were killed.”

Tiu said that when researcher BJ Absin reported the Diel account, “I was skeptical and instructed Absin to check the date of this so-called huwes de kutsilyo” Diel’s father may have been referring to the 1901 Balangiga massacre in Samar.

But more accounts came up from other places. “To be sure, the accounts differed as to the duration and extent of the huwes de kutsilyo but there was no doubt about it: the Americans did conduct search and destroy operations, applying the scorched-earth policy in Davao del Sur” and based on the description of the informants, “the campaign bordered on ethnocide.”

Domingo Rodriguez of Malita described the American retaliation as “severe. When they declared an area under huwes de kutsilyo, they would leave with no living thing behind, whether old or young, women or children. All those who were not able to flee were killed.”

Accounts about the Americans conducting mass poisoning of the Lumads also surfaced in Leleng, Hagonoy in Davao del Sur and Lupon in Davao Oriental.

Lorenzo Perez, the current tribal chief of Hagonoy, Florencio Tan, Dumumpan Isam, and Anita Ingkili “provided fragments of this particular incident in their local history. According to them, the Americans poisoned their wells and the Balutakay River. At night the Americans also surreptitiously sprayed their kitchens with poison. As a result, there were so many dead they could not all be buried. Isma says the old native cemetery was located near the cockpit, and that many skeletons were dug up there. This period in their history thy call the korentina sometimes pronounced the kolantina, which I would later understand to be an indigenization of the English word quarantine.”

“It was in Lupon that I fully understood why they called this poisoning episode the korentina. According to the informants, the people were forbidden to leave the community as the disease, obviously an epidemic, ravaged their settlement. The Americans had apparently imposed quarantine, and therefore the term, indigenized into korentina would come to mean the entire poisoning incident,” Tiu wrote.

At the beginning of 1908, some 200 Americans had settled in Davao. Their main problem aside from labor was to attract more investments to develop the plantations they had carved out from the forests. To entice investors, they dangled the idea that the Moro province, of which Davao was a part, would soon become “the white man’s country” of the Philippines.

But no investor would come because there were no land titles and the planters also faced continuing challenges from the local tribes, particularly the Kalagans who resisted encroachment into their territory by the then largest plantation, the 285-hectare Mindanao Estates Company in Hagonoy.

By November 1908, cholera would strike Davao with the Kalagan Moros apparently the most affected.

“The circumstances surrounding the sudden appearance of cholera in Davao strongly suggest the Americans did conduct germ warfare in Davao, or mass poisoning as alleged by the natives of Davao,” Tiu wrote.

As a disease, cholera, an infectious and often fatal bacterial disease of the small intestine, typically contracted from infected water supplies and causing severe vomiting and diarrhea,

had plagued the Philippines even during the Spanish era “but it had never affected Davao in the way it was affected in 1908.”

Tiu noted that one reason why cholera could not decimate the population was the migratory habit of the natives. “If plague occurred in a place, the natives would immediately abandon it, thus limiting its damage. But the korentina, which the Americans imposed supposedly to contain the disease, allowed the plague to do its utmost damage.”

[tom hyle]

The germ is mightier than the sword. And N Americans scoff at Africans for thinking an enemy poisoning or sickening them is the source of illness :rolleyes: War is not nice.

[Bill]

looks like an interesting book, as it is new, it will be interesting to see if "backed up" by any other research. at this time period I think the medical community in the US has a understanding of Cholera, but I would be amazed if there was any policy to use it as a weapon. Contaminating wells doesn't surprise me, but the thought that the military would be conscientiously trying to use cholera does. From what I have read, it is feared by American troops. Colonialists exploit many things in order to control a larger population, perhaps they simply did not act to stop an outbreak.

[Ian]

We are starting to stray off topic, but I do feel obliged to comment on the lengthy quote posted by Spunjer.

Public health and sanitation is one of my fields of expertise.

Cholera outbreaks are common, even now, wherever sanitation is compromised. Also, lengthy periods have often occurred between outbreaks of cholera in a particular place. Quarantining people during cholera outbreaks was common practice in the early 20th C. We did not understand the transmission of the disease, or its treatment, as well then as we do today.

I'm not saying the US Adminsitration was blameless in its handling of affairs in Davao, but there really needs to be more convincing evidence that this episode involved the deliberate use of infectious agents before labeling it an example of biological (germ) warfare. As Bill notes, cholera would have been a very unlikely "warfare agent" for the US to have used in 1908.

Ian.

[MABAGANI]

Wasn't cholera a worldwide epidemic at the time?
I haven't found any accounts of the disease being used as a weapon, but the "scorched earth policy", killing everyone in sight including burning civilian homes and food, was used against the Moros, written about in a biography of an officer, 2nd Lt. Cornelius C. Smith Jr. You'll rarely find published info about war crimes and atrocities, they were censored after the first few massacres when the US public learned of what was occurring in their new colonies through the media, it was easier to accomplish by the creation of the constabulary who could carry out campaigns unnoticed. Only problem was the soldier's valor were going unrecorded so the constabulary started writing their own history in diaries and later books, interesting reading if you want to find out about the warfare and swords- kris, barung, kampilan, garab, bolos etc...
Maguindanao Sultan Uto died of cholera and there was a recorded incident of an outbreak among soldiers.

[zelbone]

Very interesting thread...

I just got back from the Philippines and found this thread. It gave me quite a chuckle since it reminds me of when I was just in Davao bartering with a Maranao merchant in Aldevinco. The shop had hundreds of swords, spears, and lantakas. The salesgirls tried to sell me recently made krises but I was adamant that they were "tourist" quality and wanted to see the real antiques. Thats when the proprietor stepped in and offered me a cup of tea so we could actually discuss business. He could tell I was serious customer so he only showed me the "real" antiques. Most of the real antiques were Lumad swords with a few old krises, kampilans, and budiaks. After an hour or so discussing Maranao weapons, history, and folklore I ended up walking away with two Lumad swords: one B'laan sword and one Bagobo sword. The proprietor knew I was looking for Lumad swords so he steered me towards a few of his better examples. I got them both for a very fair price...in fact you could say I got them for a steal!

Anyways, he pointed me into the direction of another Maranao merchant that had a gunong that I would probably be interested in. I went to the shop to find a really nice old ivory and silver hilt gunong with a silver scabbard. This was a genuinely old gunong with a nice old damascus blade and slender hilt. The shop owner was not around, but his son was there. He quoted me 800 pesos which is about $15. I quickly agreed but I wanted a receipt and a letter from the owner stating that the item was over a hundred years old just in case customs decided to confiscate it because of the ivory. The son located his father who came quickly and then yelled at his son. He then started laughing and explained that this particular gunong's price was 18,000 pesos and not 800 pesos...around $333, a more realistic price. He also said that he probably wouldn't even sell it to me if I was going to leave the country with it because of the CITES ban on ivory and didn't want to see it confiscated. He apologized to me and offered me his other weapons at a good discount. I was only interested in the gunong, but I did pick up a nice old malong from him that I'll display my swords on.

Anyways, I digress...

Hopefully, the market for Lumad swords don't increase anytime soon now that I have reliable contacts for these weapons :D ! Plus, I've discovered a sword form that really hasn't been discussed here yet...but I'm keeping that to myself ;) .

[Spunjer]

zel,
nice for you to be back safely. found any visayan stuff? ;)

[Ian]

Look forward to seeing lots of pictures.

Interesting that a local merchant would have a handle on the CITES issue, and even better that he did not try to sell that gunong to you knowing that you would be leaving the country.

Now, about that new sword form ... :D

Ian

[zelbone]

zel,
nice for you to be back safely. found any visayan stuff? ;)

Yes I did :D ...

[zelbone]

Look forward to seeing lots of pictures.

Interesting that a local merchant would have a handle on the CITES issue, and even better that he did not try to sell that gunong to you knowing that you would be leaving the country.

Now, about that new sword form ... :D

Ian

Actually, most if not all the Maranao merchants in Davao dealing in antique weapons were quite knowledgeable and were aware of the CITES issue. Sure, many had recently made krises with fancy hilts, but a few had genuinely old weapons. Most know that most tourist want the fancy new swords which is why there are so many of those gaudy krises and gunongs in their shops. But, if an antique merchant determines that you're a serious client, that's when the real treasures come out from the back room. As for lumad swords, many carry them and are quite knowledgeable about them as well. Right now, the genuine lumad swords are still selling for a fraction less than the genuine old Moro swords, however, the better quality and rarer lumad swords are priced comparably with the Moro weapons.

As for the "new" sword form, I won't comment on it until I dig up more information and do some follow-up research. It really isn't that new, but distinctly different.

[Spunjer]

But, if an antique merchant determines that you're a serious client, that's when the real treasures come out from the back room.

sounds like you made a stop at omar's souvenir shop ;) . picked up a few stuff plus a laminated kamp complete with scabbard in that one.

any possibilities on getting some pics on your visayan stuff :D ?

[zelbone]

sounds like you made a stop at omar's souvenir shop ;) . picked up a few stuff plus a laminated kamp complete with scabbard in that one.

any possibilities on getting some pics on your visayan stuff :D ?

Omar's was one of the shop's I visited...cool guy. His salesgirls have no clue about swords though. Actually, he was the one to point me to the ivory hilt gunong.

As for the Visayan stuff...I'll think about it :rolleyes:

[Battara]

So that is where you picked up the kamp.....KOSHER! :cool:

[Spunjer]

His salesgirls have no clue about swords though.

he he. hajji's angels, i called them. those three were a trip! he did showed me a a nice barung but at that time i was holding back for the one i saw in manila (which i ended up not getting anyways :mad: ) btw battara, that's the same place where i got the hawkbells and malong...

[Federico]

Good to hear you had a safe trip Zel, looking forward to pics. Any new book finds as well?

[Ian]

well made swords just finished on eBay and the price is climbing. Even though advertised as "Moro" it is not a recognized weapon of the Moro but of the Kaolu (one of the Lumad tribes) around Davao City. The quality is good on these recently made swords, and they may have been produced by a Moro crafstman, but the style is definitely not Moro. This example is a modern sword made mainly for sale to wealthy tourists.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6554400265

Ian.

[Spunjer]

ian

i was watching that as well. like you, i think it's recent... :(

[Rick]

Holy Bedcovering ! :eek:
Nice piece .

Three years ago this would not have fetched such a price .
I think I'm seeing the prices of Moro pieces declining of late while pieces from other Philippine cultures are on the rise .

Then again I don't think I've seen many real nice Moro Arms on ebay of late ;
many seem to be retrofitted examples .

Spunjer , where'd you find that pic of the guys gambling on the PI thread ?
Those carbines look like WWII ordinance .

[Ian]

... I think I'm seeing the prices of Moro pieces declining of late while pieces from other Philippine cultures are on the rise.

Then again I don't think I've seen many real nice Moro Arms on ebay of late;
many seem to be retrofitted examples. ...
Rick:

Not much good Moro stuff coming out of the Muslim areas because of the recent law and order problems in Mindanao and the Sulu Archipelago. The better quality stuff is coming from Davao City and surroundings, which is relatively rich in Lumad weapons.

Ian.

[Spunjer]

Spunjer , where'd you find that pic of the guys gambling on the PI thread ?
Those carbines look like WWII ordinance .

rick,

it's from the 'net. believe it or not, it's a wedding site, lol...

[VANDOO]

UNFORTUNATELY THE THING DRIVING UP THE PRICES IS THE IDEA OF INVESTMENT POTENTIAL NOT INTREST BY COLLECTORS OF LIMITED MEANS. GALLERYS SELL IT AS ETHINOGRAPHIC ART WHICH WILL SOON BE GONE AND NO MORE WILL BE MADE AS THE SOCIETYS WHO MADE THEM NO LONGER EXHIST. THIS ENABLES THEM TO WRITE UP SOME INFORMATION ON THE ITEMS THEN PUT ON A HIGH APPRASIAL AND SELL AS A GOOD INVESTMENT WHICH WILL OUTPACE STOCKS, GOLD OR ANYTHING ELSE. PEOPLE WITH LOTS OF MONEY REALLY GO FOR THIS BUT ARE USUALLY NOT VERY INTERESTED IN THE HISTORY, USE OR CULTURE WHICH PRODUCED THEM JUST ON THE SUPPOSED BIG FAST PROFIT. AS LONG AS THERE ARE PEOPLE WITH THE CASH AND THE DESIRE TO MAKE LOTS MORE MONEY PRICES WILL CONTINUE TO RISE AND WHAT THE GALLERYS SAY WILL BE TRUE IT WILL BE A GOOD INVESTMENT. PERSONALY I AM NOT A COLLECTOR TO MAKE A KILLING, I COLLECTED BECAUSE I WAS INTERESTED IN THESE WEAPONS AND THEIR ORIGINS AND HISTORY. BUT I GUESS IT IS GOOD TO KNOW IF I SELL OUT MY COLLECTION I WILL MAKE A PROFIT, BUT IT IS HARD TO STOP TRYING TO COLLECT EVEN THOUGH I CAN NO LONGER AFFORD TO COMPETE SUCCESFULLY. I STILL THINK IT IS GOOD TO SHARE WHAT KNOWLEGE WE HAVE AS WE WILL NOT LIVE FOREVER AND TOO MUCH KNOWLEGE HAS ALREADY BEEN TAKEN TO THE GRAVE AND LOST.

[Rick]

I guess I agree with you Barry , but edged weapon collectors are statistically a very small niche market in the entire ethnographic field are they not ?

Talk about un-PC ! ;)

EEK a sword !! :eek: :D

[VANDOO]

I WOULD AGREE EDGEDED WEAPON COLLECTORS ARE A SMALL NICH AND SOME ONLY SPECIALIZE IN ONE FIELD OR TYPE OF WEAPON. I UNFORTUNATELY FIND EVERYTHING INTERESTING AND IT SEEMS EVERY TIME I HAVE DECIDED TO FOCUS ON ONE FIELD OR TYPE IT BECOMES A HOT ITEM WITH THE ETHINOGRAPHIC ART INVESTMENT CROWD AND IT GOES QUICKLY OUT OF REACH. I USED TO PICK UP THE OCCASIONAL OLD MANDAU BECAUSE IT WAS MISSING THE SCABBARD AND HAD A POOR HANDLE BUT THESE DAYS ON EBAY THEY ARE BRINGING WHAT A COMPLETE MANDAU WITH NICE HANDLE BROUGHT NOT TOO LONG AGO. SO DAYAK MANDAU ARE OFF THE MENU AS WELL AS PHILIPPINE WEAPONS WHICH WERE MY FAVORITE EDGED WEAPONS,MY MOST FAVORITE OCEANIC CLUBS HAVE ALSO TAKEN OFF INTO THE STRATOSPHERE. EVEN MUSEUMS HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT TIME OUTBIDING THE ETHINOGRAPHIC ART INVESTORS. I GUESS I WILL HAVE TO BE CONTENT AND ENJOY WHAT I HAVE AND REMEMBER THE GOOD OLD DAYS. :rolleyes:

I HAVE ALSO NOTICED A BIG INCREASE IN RECENT MADE MANDAU REPRESENTED AS OLD PIECES ON EBAY AND SUSPECT THAT DUE TO THE HIGH PRICES BEING PAYED PERHAPS BUYING A OLD MANDAU WITH A NICE BLADE AND REFITTING IT WITH A NEWER FANCY HANDLE AND SCABBARD WOULD STILL BE PROFITABLE AFTER PAYING $300.00 FOR IT ON EBAY FOR PARTS. I WISH THAT WOULD NOT HAPPEN AS A AUTHENTIC OLD WEAPON EVEN IF INCOMPLETE AND WITH A PLAIN HANDLE IS BETTER THAN A COMPOSIT THAT LOOKS LIKE THE HIGH DOLLAR ONES. THERE ARE ALSO A LOT OF RECENT MADE CLUBS SHOWING UP FORTUNATELY MOST ARE REPRESENTED AS SUCH SO FAR.

[Battara]

I have to say that I have a slight interest in US Civil War and have a foot officer's sword made for the Confederacy. I have seen this go up and then down slightly in market pricing. I have noticed that good Moro pieces are no longer being offered. I wonder if PI (Moro especially) will also go up and down a little. I do know that very good quality pieces will always keep their value.