Post Prices Please!

[Bill M]

I don't respond to posts offering to sell pieces with no price stated by the seller.

I wonder if different prices are stated by the seller depending on who is asking?

For instance, I asked a seller, who usually advertises on his website "POR" (Price On Request) for the amount of one of his pieces.

He quoted me a price of $1100USD as "the best he could sell it for."

Another collector friend asked his price (about the same time I asked) and was quoted $750USD.

So when I see "POR" or "email me for price" or "email me offers," I just go onto something else and ignore the piece. If someone wants to sell something, put a price in your post.

Or post it on eBay and let the market tell you the best price.

[Dajak]

What is wrong with email me offers if you like it make an offer .

This reduce the not seriuos people that wanna have the stuff for nothing .

And the new owner sometimes do not want to now what he is paying for an Item.


That is different when someone have an store and put things up for sale
with no price like POR that is also what I also not like .

And Ebay not the right place to sell good items .


Ben

[Lew]

"And Ebay not the right place to sell good items" .




Email offers going to the highest bidder? :rolleyes: The swap section should not be used as an auction outlet. Most if not all of us know what our pieces are worth so just state what you think is an appropriate price and leave at that first come first serve. I keep a journal of my collection and what I think their current market value is so when I put something up for sale it usually has a price so there is no guess work. Ben why do you think Ebay is not a good venue for "good items" Some of my best pieces have come from ebay. All you need is to set a reserve.



Lew

[Bill M]

I have to agree with Lew. You should have a price in mind and state it.

I have bought some very good pieces on eBay.

I don't care if other people know what I paid. :shrug: Even if sometimes I pay too much! :rolleyes:

And, Ben, this policy "email me offers" would seem to increase the number of "not serious" people who offer low prices. :confused:

[Dajak]

People always wanna use sale price as an valeu to the item ,
so if they have something like it they say this is so much valeu because it is sold then for that price .

I don t like this way that is why I use offer when it do met my price it will be sold .

If anyone do not like it don t send an offer .

And not serious offers I delete no problem with that .

Ebay is build on that the people bid against each other but don't forget
now the names are hidden the seller can put some friends that raise the bid for him .

This happends so that is why I don t put anything on ebay .

Some people do give an price and get contacted and the buyer tells the seller can I get it for less because I already did buy so much this month I like to avoid that too Bill .

Ben

[drdavid]

Bill and Lew,
I'm definitely with you on this one. I really dont like the trend towards not putting a price on items in the swap forum. It does open things up to less than desirable practices. There are other good reasons for showing prices, including assisting those of us less knowledgeable in the minefield. If someone wants to make an offer at a lesser price than that shown on the item or not be identified there is nothing stopping them sending a PM. I would much prefer to see swap offers or price only as the policy in this forum.
David

[Lee]

I have moved this discussion from the swap forum.

To be entirely honest, I share some of the peeves noted and I have on several occasions come very close to making some fairly arbitrary and dramatic rule changes in relation to the swap forum.

We can never please everybody, but, if you have opinions on swap forum policies, please share them in this thread and I will work with the moderators team to evolve guidelines for the future.

[josh stout]

I like posted prices, and several times a low price has prompted me into an impulse buy. Nevertheless, I do not think there needs to be a rule. While I hate having to ask for a price, I have had some very friendly conversations chatting about a piece when I do.

I feel "POR" is slightly more genteel, but it is less likely to make a sale than a simple posted price.

Josh

[CourseEight]

Bill and Lew,
I'm definitely with you on this one. I really dont like the trend towards not putting a price on items in the swap forum. It does open things up to less than desirable practices. There are other good reasons for showing prices, including assisting those of us less knowledgeable in the minefield. If someone wants to make an offer at a lesser price than that shown on the item or not be identified there is nothing stopping them sending a PM. I would much prefer to see swap offers or price only as the policy in this forum.
David

I agree with all of this, although I'm not sure we need to go as far as making it a rule. What if someone does a combined swap & cash?

People always wanna use sale price as an valeu to the item ,
so if they have something like it they say this is so much valeu because it is sold then for that price .

I don t like this way that is why I use offer when it do met my price it will be sold .

I am trying hard to understand the argument for not posting prices, but I don't understand why this is a cause for concern. People are bound try to justify the prices of the things they are selling, and if a knowledgable collector sells something similar to a knowledable collector at price X, this is a far more grounded justification than most others. If a person tries to pass off something dissimilar as similar to your item, it is still the buyer's responsibility to know the difference, and I don't really think this makes it harder for the buyer, since at least they are given a point of comparison.

Maybe someone should put up a poll, and see exactly how the forum members at large feel about "priceless" auctions? If enough members are opposed to them, and this is made public, I think most sellers will realize it is in their best interest to make their prices transparent.

--Radleigh

[CharlesS]

I have used POR in the past as well as "offers for sale or trade"...in both cases I generally always prefer a trade.

I can certainly see how some might frown on this practice, and will refrain from it in the future, from now on posting a price for sale, or potential trade value.

[David]

The only reason i can see for not posting prices is so that the seller can get the very most offered for his piece after taking as many offers as he sees fit first. This type of closed auction seems just a little unfair to me and it alllows sellers to exaggerate what others have offered them if they choose to be unsavory about it. I am not accusing anyone here of that practice. But without transparency, who knows. Personally i don't usually make offers to sellers. They should know what they paid for the item and approximately how much they think it is worth on the current market. Then they should just set a price and ask for it. That is really the only way i will participate.

[Rick]

Ditto .
One could always name a price and accept offers . :shrug:
That's the way Real Estate works . :)

[Bill M]

Looks like most people are for posting prices in the Swap Forum. It would also help to know trade value.

[fernando]

If i may give an opinion, i think the number of reasons for posting offers with prices, in the Swap Forum, is countless.
Fernando

[spiral]

For instance, I asked a seller, who usually advertises on his website "POR" (Price On Request) for the amount of one of his pieces.

He quoted me a price of $1100USD as "the best he could sell it for."

Another collector friend asked his price (about the same time I asked) and was quoted $750USD.




That seller sulked so much about bieng caught out Bill, He wont even quote an extortinate price to me any more!

But of course in this world of friends,associates & collector & dealer contacts, it makes no differance! :D

Spiral

[G. McCormack]

Why is it so inconvenient for you to make an offer? :shrug:

You want to be in the biggest position of advantage possible, where transactions are concerned. Nothing wrong with that, unless it's coupled with an overarching sense of entitlement. ;)

Making an offer puts you in a position of disadvantage...you don't have a place from which to wriggle the price down, and you don't have an instant idea whether or not you can get the piece. But thats just part of buying luxury items, you may not always be able to control every aspect of the deal.

Additionally, dealers quoting different prices for different people is a very common thing, although it's not a practice I espouse. It might be because they need the money, think you have more money than another guy, or just want more in return for dealing with a customer who is a huge pain in the ass. Or a dozen other reasons.

Many dealers prefer not to publish their prices because they dont feel like providing what is essentially a free appraisal service, one that may skew the market.



As for the forum itself, I think its a wonderful thing and as to the swap forum I have no problem with it but trust the judgement of the moderators whatever they decide.


-Garrett

[fernando]

...Additionally, dealers quoting different prices for different people is a very common thing, although it's not a practice I espouse. It might be because they need the money, think you have more money than another guy, or just want more in return for dealing with a customer who is a huge pain in the ass. Or a dozen other reasons. ...



Hi Garrett
Your assuming that you don't espouse such methodology gives me space to also opine that, maybe some of these (dozen) reasons would not fall into the transparency (honesty?) chest.
The posting of a price shouldn't necessarily avoid an interested member to make a higher offer, if he considers the article has a higher value (at least for him) and he wants to make sure to get it before others, as also to make a lower offer, if in good faith he thinks the item is not so valuable. In the other hand, if the swapper/seller considers that a certain member who offers to buy the article is a pain in the ass (for him), he can either answer by deliberately inflate the (previously) posted price as an undoubtfull message that he assumedly doesn't want to sell it to such person ... or just say it directly, face to face (post wise).
However in my perspective, there is a great difference between the Forum swap section and a business speculation web site.
I would risk to bet that, such swap section wasn't implemented for the members to buy things with the basic intention to come in there to sell them with a speculated profit, nor with the intent to only sell things to the member with the nicest eyes.
... Just my humble opinion
Fernando

[Bill M]

Hi Garrett
Your assuming that you don't espouse such methodology gives me space to also opine that, maybe some of these (dozen) reasons would not fall into the transparency (honesty?) chest.




Most eloquenly put!



........ posted price as an undoubtfull message that he assumedly doesn't want to sell it to such person ... or just say it directly, face to face (post wise).

Fernando

Could be the seller is lacking in cojones to let someone know he doesn't like them, but does not liking someone mean you don't like their money?

On the other hand,

As a buyer, I have one, and only one, dealer whom I told, (and this should be in private email, never a topic for open forum, that since I feel so shabbily treated by him for inflating the price -- $1100 to me and $750, to someone else), that I don't care if he has a solid gold jungayyan kris. I wouldn't buy it! I have no interest in supporting dealers who do this.

But this is a private matter between us and has nothing to do with any of the forum members, who currently post items now and then.

If dealers like him are naive enough to think this community is NOT a very small arena and their reputation as an honest dealer is NOT important, then they are quite foolish.

I apologize in advance if anyone feels slighted by my remarks. The dealer knows full well who he is -- I am only talking about one person.

However, it is my policy not to make offers. I buy if I see a stated price that is open to one and all and I am willing to pay that price.

[Dajak]

[QUOTE=G. McCormack]Why is it so inconvenient for you to make an offer? :shrug:

You want to be in the biggest position of advantage possible, where transactions are concerned. Nothing wrong with that, unless it's coupled with an overarching sense of entitlement. ;)

Making an offer puts you in a position of disadvantage...you don't have a place from which to wriggle the price down, and you don't have an instant idea whether or not you can get the piece. But thats just part of buying luxury items, you may not always be able to control every aspect of the deal.


This is a good reason not post an price and anyone is free to make an offer or not .

I don't see the problem doing it this way .

Ben

[VANDOO]

IT BASICALLY COMES DOWN TO (IT IS THE SELLERS CHOICE HOW HE LISTS AND SELLS HIS ITEMS)

IT IS ALSO THE BUYERS CHOICE TO MAKE AN OFFER OR NOT. EITHER WAY SOMETIMES YOU CAN BENIFIT OR SOMETIMES YOU LOSE POTENTIAL BUYERS :shrug: "YOU MAKES YER MOVE AND TAKES YUR CHANCES"
PERSONALLY I LIKE TO SEE A PRICE AS IT GIVES ME AN IDEA IF I CAN AFFORD IT OR NOT. MY PURCHASING POWER PUTS ME IN THE LOW END OF THE MARKET THESE DAYS AND I WOULD JUST AS SOON NOT MAKE AN OFFER THAT MAY BE MY BEST THAT WILL NOT EVEN BE HALF THE DEALERS ASKING PRICE THATS EMBARASING. :o
A GOOD WAY TO DETERMINE WHERE YOU ARE ON THE FOOD CHAIN OF COLLECTING IS TO BID ON 100 NICE EBAY WEAPONS AND SEE HOW MANY YOU WIN IF IT IS 2 ITEMS OR LESS YOU ARE IN MY COLLECTOR GROUP. :rolleyes:

I UNDERSTAND SOME DEALERS NOT WANTING COLLECTORS SUCH AS MYSELF FROM KNOWING THE PRICE OF AN ITEM AS PERHAPS THEY CAN GET THINGS I COLLECTED IN THE 1960'S AT 1960'S PRICES. I CAN LOOK AT EBAY PRICES ON AUCTIONS AS WELL AS MANY SELLERS WEBSITES TO GET AN IDEA OF CURRENT PRICES IF I WANT ,SO THIS WILL NOT BE POSSIBLE TO DO IN MY CASE. I HAVE SOLD A FEW ITEMS TO OTHER COLLECTORS WHO WERE SPECIALIZING IN THAT CERTIAN FIELD WHEN I WAS NOT. BUT I MOSTLY JUST HANG ON TO MY OLD STUFF AS I AM NOT ADDING NEW ITEMS TO THE COLLECTION AT TODAYS PRICES AND LEVEL OF COMPETICIAN.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I don't see any good reason not to put a price on an item. There is no written law that the potential buyer has to offer the asking price and at least an asking price gives both buyer and seller a starting point from which to negotiate. An item which is put up for closed offers only, which P.M. offers are essentially, is a Silent Auction.
Regards,
Norman.

[Gavin Nugent]

I simply believe in seller's choice as it is buyers choice to ask the question if interested. It would be like asking everyone who posts a link that expires in three months to post images instead so information is not lost forever, it has been asked time and time again but...it's on the never never plan....

Gav

[David]

However in my perspective, there is a great difference between the Forum swap section and a business speculation web site.
I would risk to bet that, such swap section wasn't implemented for the members to buy things with the basic intention to come in there to sell them with a speculated profit, nor with the intent to only sell things to the member with the nicest eyes.
Thank you Fernando, i believe you have hit at the heart of the matter right here. We do not run an open marketplace here. It is a members only club. You might have noticed in fact, that the forum under discussion here is called the "Swap Forum". Now, i don't think anyone imagined that sales would not take place there as well and in fact more "sales" than "swaps" do occur. But as far as i can see this swap forum is a service for our members to help each other grow our collections or dispose of pieces when we decide to move on to something else or plan on trading up. Nothing irks me more than when dealers "join" our forum just so that they can start using the swap as their marketplace and hardly, if ever, make any posts on the regular discussion boards. As far as i am concerned, the cut-throat rules of marketplace advantage should be left at the door. I am not saying that a seller should take a bad deal for community sake, but a little transparency would go a long way in situations like this. We are a community here, and as far as i can tell from my surfing of the net, a rather unique one. IMHO we should treat each other just a little bit better that we would act in the marketplace at large. :shrug:

[ALEX]

I've noticed some "trend" here when sellers asking for offers are challenged to name their price. Well, sometimes we have an idea, an estimate, but just as at ALL major auctions - they never considered as "price" per se. The price is determined by how much someone is willing to pay! I have some fantastic swords I'd offer for sale, but I'd never list them at a fixed price. So... "... I do not see anything wrong with asking for offers. If someone is interested in an item (really wants it!), and knows enough about it in terms of comparative market value - one should be able to make an intelligent offer and to negotiate it. It is a seller's right afterall to sell anyway he/she prefers without justifying his/her selling preferences".

[David]

I've noticed some "trend" here when sellers asking for offers are challenged to name their price. Well, sometimes we have an idea, an estimate, but just as at ALL major auctions - they never considered as "price" per se. The price is determined by how much someone is willing to pay! I have some fantastic swords I'd offer for sale, but I'd never list them at a fixed price. So... "... I do not see anything wrong with asking for offers. If someone is interested in an item (really wants it!), and knows enough about it in terms of comparative market value - one should be able to make an intelligent offer and to negotiate it. It is a seller's right afterall to sell anyway he/she prefers without justifying his/her selling preferences".
Did you read my post at all Alex? :shrug:
I, for one, do not think that what goes on on our forum's swap forum should be anything like "ALL major auctions". And every collector here knows what they paid for an item, how much time, effort and perhaps money they put into restoration, if any, and has at least a ballpark figure in mind of what they are willing to take for the piece. If it's about "how do i get the most amount of money off my fellow collectors in this forum for this piece regardless of what it might be worth to me" then i think priorities for our swap forum have gone a bit askew....discuss..... :)

[TVV]

As far as I am concerned, it is up to the seller to decide whether to post a price or not. However, personally, if I do not see a price, I usually simply move on, as I am completely unwilling to bid against myself. From this thread it is becoming obvious that naming a price will significantly improve a seller's chances to find a buyer within this forum. So it is then up to the seller to decide whether he wants to go for a quicker, easier sale, or risk a silent auction where the price could be potentially higher, but where there also will be less interest. Nothing wrong with either option in my opinion.

[Lew]

I've noticed some "trend" here when sellers asking for offers are challenged to name their price. Well, sometimes we have an idea, an estimate, but just as at ALL major auctions - they never considered as "price" per se. The price is determined by how much someone is willing to pay! I have some fantastic swords I'd offer for sale, but I'd never list them at a fixed price. So... "... I do not see anything wrong with asking for offers. If someone is interested in an item (really wants it!), and knows enough about it in terms of comparative market value - one should be able to make an intelligent offer and to negotiate it. It is a seller's right afterall to sell anyway he/she prefers without justifying his/her selling preferences".

Alex

The seller has the right if that person has their own website but this forum is not in that business and we are not an auction house. We are just a group that exchange ideas and information in an open and transparent way. Having blind bidding on an item to get the highest price for profit is not what this forum's mission was originally intended for. I really don't understand why a member who has a good grip on what the prices in todays market are can't post what he or she thinks is a solid price.

Lew

[fernando]

I've noticed some "trend" here when sellers asking for offers are challenged to name their price. Well, sometimes we have an idea, an estimate, but just as at ALL major auctions - they never considered as "price" per se. The price is determined by how much someone is willing to pay! I have some fantastic swords I'd offer for sale, but I'd never list them at a fixed price. So... "... I do not see anything wrong with asking for offers. If someone is interested in an item (really wants it!), and knows enough about it in terms of comparative market value - one should be able to make an intelligent offer and to negotiate it. It is a seller's right afterall to sell anyway he/she prefers without justifying his/her selling preferences".

Hi Alex
Puting things that way, this would perhaps be an endless discussion. If we invert the situation, for example, the price could also be determined by how much someone is willing to sell it for. Whether we are interested in an item, depends mostly on its price; this is the difference between realy desiring it and realy wanting it ... if i make myself understood. Unless one is a tycoon, the decision to want something is inalienable from his capacity to pay for it ... unfortunately.
Certainly puting something on sale under secrecy of its price gives place to more speculation than in the contrary. Also when somebody sugests that posting the article's price gives a possibility for people be aware of its value update, without necessarily wanting to buy it, it's precisely the same the other way round; who can tell that the seller is not invinting people to make offers in order to evaluate the stuff, prior to deciding to sell it ?
My primary thaught when i visit the swap forum to see if there is something i want (and can afford) to buy, is that i am acquiring the item on a membership basis, free of speculation; so i don't have to be an expert in auction licitations, as i am not afraid i will be taken for a ride. My beleive is that forum members are more comited to transparency, not only on what touches fair prices but also, which is not less important, to describe the quality and age of the item with the isention proper of a (this) Forum atmosphere.
But of course, these are no more than points of view.
Fernando

[Maurice]

My opinion is that member collectors can offer their pieces any way they want to, cause everybody has his own "style".
Some sellers like to get an offer, some have prices listed, and others only want to swap!
One need to respect that!
That is the same of the membercollectors buying. Some like to make an offer, some want prices and others like to swap.
So I see it like a kind of sports!
I think there should no need to envy a fellow membercollector about "snatching" a piece in which you were interested.
I don't mind when it goes to another fellow collector, who offered more than I did.:shrug:

If there is no "click" between seller and buyer, I even don't want to have the piece even if it was made of gold and when I am the seller I don't want to sell it to that person.

And you can turn it you want, but it still stays in the posession of the sellers till the deal is made. Till than you can always drop out if you don't trust the seller or there is no "click", but you never can deceide about an item that you didn't pay for yet.

My best collecting pieces I have are bought from sellers I respect and trust.
When possible I even pay them a visit to drink some coffee with pie ;) , or eat Surinam food ;) .

As a matter of fact I had an item bought some weeks ago from ebay of one of the most respected seller in my eyes, and than he put much money off the price I offered him. He didn't want to get the highest price. That is collecting fun with respect!!!!
If one respect eachother, you will see it will be a lot easier to get pieces you want.

HAPPY COLLECTING!!:)

[Dajak]

I've noticed some "trend" here when sellers asking for offers are challenged to name their price. Well, sometimes we have an idea, an estimate, but just as at ALL major auctions - they never considered as "price" per se. The price is determined by how much someone is willing to pay! I have some fantastic swords I'd offer for sale, but I'd never list them at a fixed price. So... "... I do not see anything wrong with asking for offers. If someone is interested in an item (really wants it!), and knows enough about it in terms of comparative market value - one should be able to make an intelligent offer and to negotiate it. It is a seller's right afterall to sell anyway he/she prefers without justifying his/her selling preferences".


Alex do make a good point off it .

If I really want something I offer people money and ask them if they like it or I have to come with an better offer if I like it , and I really want it.


And to Maurice always nice to see you beside the food I will take you to the special museum next time that is the place where I did get my interest 36 years ago in collecting Indonesian stuff .
I like to hang around with an true collector like you . ;) ;) ;)


Ben

[ALEX]

I agree with Ben, Maurice, TVV and few others - we should respect each other's selling preferences - sellers and buyers alike (and each other as well:-) - well done guys:-) No one should dictate or force no one to sell or trade according to anyone's preferences. I am not taking any sides, I am just promoting respect and equality for all members. Asking for offer is no harm in my view - forcing a seller to publicly name the price knowing that the seller prefers not to is impolite. If someone does not wish to participate in a silent auction - simply do not - no one forces you, but do not force the other side either:-)

[fernando]

I agree with Ben, Maurice, TVV and few others - we should respect each other's selling preferences - sellers and buyers alike (and each other as well:-) - well done guys:-) No one should dictate or force no one to sell or trade according to anyone's preferences. I am not taking any sides, I am just promoting respect and equality for all members. Asking for offer is no harm in my view - forcing a seller to publicly name the price knowing that the seller prefers not to is impolite. If someone does not wish to participate in a silent auction - simply do not - no one forces you, but do not force the other side either:-)

Hi Alex
You say you are not taking any sides :); i can not say the same, with all due respect for those afected :o.
The way i view it, so called selling preferences, in places not dedicated to business (read speculation) should only be the ethical ones :shrug: .
I rather take it that, impolite is to put something for sale in a friendly forum without a price and still refuse to give it after your fellow members request :confused: .
Silent (or any type of) auctions are perhaps out of context in a members only forum; this is probably a more pertinent reason for the respect issue ... at least for some.
What you probably mean by forcing is, in the worst, a figure of speech; i feel restrained from further coments on this one :o .
Sorry Alex, don't take it wrong; i am only defending my dame. I am no business guru and i have never registered on eBay. I feel defenceless before certain exercises :shrug:
Kind regards
Fernando

[Maurice]

I am no business guru and i have never registered on eBay. Hi Fernando,

That counts for me the same :)

Regards,
Maurice

[Rick]

This is just a thought that popped into my head while reading .

The purpose of these forums is to discuss, educate and further our collective knowledge of the subjects we study here .

Pricing methods in Swap that could result in a windfall for a Seller from a *naive Buyer* do not seem to be in the spirit of the forums as I see it . :)

[ALEX]

Rick - you're absolutely right.
Fernando, last thought: I understand and respect your opinion. Please allow me to ask for more: I have very nice and rare sword (18th Cent wootz shamshir. signed, in original silver fittings, double kirk pattern). How much does it cost. i.e. how much should I ask for it? What references do I use? Ebay? Other websites? Auctions? etc... I know that many will say: "shamshir like this will cost $2500 on Ebay", but I also know it'd cost about 10 times more on any decent auction (and the buyer will pay 20% on top of it in commissions). I do not know how much it'd exactly fetch though. So, why one can not ask for offer? Of course I can ask $25000 right away, but if I prefer someone who understands the above math to offer something in the acceptable range, and then work on that "seller/buyer click" which Maurice described so nicely earlier on, and without offending others - should I be able to? and I know the Forum is not an auction, I am using it as an example.

[Dajak]

I agree with Ben, Maurice, TVV and few others - we should respect each other's selling preferences - sellers and buyers alike (and each other as well:-) - well done guys:-) No one should dictate or force no one to sell or trade according to anyone's preferences. I am not taking any sides, I am just promoting respect and equality for all members. Asking for offer is no harm in my view - forcing a seller to publicly name the price knowing that the seller prefers not to is impolite. If someone does not wish to participate in a silent auction - simply do not - no one forces you, but do not force the other side either:-)



This is an good thing respect and don't try to put your will on other people

because you don't like the way that they put no price on it .


Ben

[Lew]

So far it's 11 leaning towards posting and 5 against. I guess there will need to be an executive decision by the Forum staff as to what the future policy will be :shrug:


Lew

[Dajak]

I don't think the Forum staff has to take an decision on this because this could lead to no more swap posting by some members .

It would be a shame if this gonna happen because some special stuff never get to the swap forum again .



Ben

[Dajak]

[QUOTE=Bill Marsh]I don't respond to posts offering to sell pieces with no price stated by the seller.

I wonder if different prices are stated by the seller depending on who is asking?


So when I see "POR" or "email me for price" or "email me offers," I just go onto something else and ignore the piece. If someone wants to sell something, put a price in your post.


Bill strange I had an peduang for sale with no price on it and you did make me an offer .

I still have the email .

Can you explain ??

Ben

[fernando]

Rick - you're absolutely right.
Fernando, last thought: I understand and respect your opinion. Please allow me to ask for more: I have very nice and rare sword (18th Cent wootz shamshir. signed, in original silver fittings, double kirk pattern). How much does it cost. i.e. how much should I ask for it? What references do I use? Ebay? Other websites? Auctions? etc... I know that many will say: "shamshir like this will cost $2500 on Ebay", but I also know it'd cost about 10 times more on any decent auction (and the buyer will pay 20% on top of it in commissions). I do not know how much it'd exactly fetch though. So, why one can not ask for offer? Of course I can ask $25000 right away, but if I prefer someone who understands the above math to offer something in the acceptable range, and then work on that "seller/buyer click" which Maurice described so nicely earlier on, and without offending others - should I be able to? and I know the Forum is not an auction, I am using it as an example.

Try to start by taking into account how much you have paid for it ... an ingredient that amazingly you have failed to introduce in your above example :confused: .

[Dajak]

Try to start by taking into account how much you have paid for it ... an ingredient that amazingly you have failed to introduce in your above example :confused: .


Fernando after I did give you an price about the peduang I did get an mail that you are out of it .
Is it that you only want to now prices or want to buy seriuos an outstanding weapon.


Ben

[fernando]

I don't think the Forum staff has to take an decision on this because this could lead to no more swap posting by some members .
It would be a shame if this gonna happen because some special stuff never get to the swap forum again .
Ben

... In exchange for a more inoquous forum :shrug:
Fernando

[fernando]

Fernando after I did give you an price about the peduang I did get an mail that you are out of it .
Is it that you only want to now prices or want to buy seriuos an outstanding weapon.
Ben

Precisely Ben, you are giving me all the reason :eek: . If you had posted its price in the first place, i wouldn't have to ask you for it ... as i wouldn't need to get out, because i wouldn't have even got in; that price was far beyond my whilling to pay for it.
Sorry, but that thing of you naming your stuff as outstanding, sounds a bit commercial :shrug:
All the best
Fernando

[Dajak]

Outstanding was the right worth show me an second one that ever get to the market with the provonance etc like this one .

This has nothing to do with comercial it looks you don't now the market price
for items like this ,there is nothing wrong with that .

And looking for an bargain also nothing wrong with that .

But don't tell people that they have to price their stuff if they don't want to .

all the best
Ben

[kai]

Take a deep breath, folks! ;)

I can understand both sides of the argument. Seems like there are pro and cons for both positions and it may be wise just to agree to disagree rather than trying to "win"...

I've found all members - regardless of selling/swapping/buying preferences - nice to work with and made quite a few friends. I do hope these positive experiences will continue! I also offer additional info on pieces in the swap forum (something I'd never do on ebay or other auction sites/houses!).

Regards,
Kai

[Lew]

Fernando after I did give you an price about the peduang I did get an mail that you are out of it .
Is it that you only want to now prices or want to buy seriuos an outstanding weapon.


Ben

Ben

That is why you should post prices up front. Let say you put a 750Euro price on an item then members would gauge if they can afford it without having to email you for the same price. I really don't understand why you are getting so upset at this reasonable idea. When I go to a gun show dealers have prices listed for a item they want to sell. When I go out to eat the menu has prices for each entree. So why not post prices up front? If you have a set price in mind that you will feel comfortable with just post it. Btw your comment about Fernando was really not called for. If any of us need to know prices I am sure we know enough people in the collecting community to ask for advise.



Lew

[Dajak]

Hi Lew it is difficult eating an peduang .

And the swap forum is no gunshow.


Ben

[Lew]

[QUOTE=Dajak]Hi Lew it is difficult eating an peduang .

And the swap forum is no gunshow.

Ben

You just don't get it. :shrug:


Lew

[Rick]

Here's how I feel; I apologize if anyone takes offense; it is not meant .

I have a problem with viewing Swap as a 'strictly commercial' zone of these forums .

I don't think forums should be in the business of providing venues for dealers .

Let's please keep it civil Gentlemen . :(

[Lew]

Ben

I'm sure you have a very good idea who in this forum collects your style of weapons and who from your past business dealings with can afford to by them and not waste your time with fruitless emails. So my solution is since you have so many wonderful pieces you should just send out a private listing to those members and not bother doing a general posting. That way no one's feelings will be hurt when they ask or send you an offer they think is reasonable or affordable and you turn them down.

Lew

[ALEX]

Try to start by taking into account how much you have paid for it ... an ingredient that amazingly you have failed to introduce in your above example :confused: .

Fernando, this is the most ridiculous comment one can come up with when talking about ANY antiques (I am sorry - I am saying it in a friendly way). I am sure some people do it - and this is their choice, but believe me - it's amature and very low grade. No serious antique collector, dealer or intelligent seller volunteer their cost. It is mostly used to trick a buyer as to saying "look, I am doing you a favor by selling with such a low profit", and it always irritates me. The market and individual interests should dictate the price, not what the seller paid for it! Economics 101 (and little common sense):-)
this is why I'd not put it for sale here (regretfully), I'll take it to an auction and let the market decide the price, not politics:-)

[Lew]

Alex/Ben

I am on a friendly basis with many of the members of this forum and feel like we are a band of brothers here and many times I have sold items at or below my cost because I am looking to buy something new or I have lost interest in a certain ethnographic area and I am just looking to sell off what I no longer have interest in. I don't think any member should be using the forum solely as a profit outlet. So please if a member has an item and he does not want to put up the price up front they should send out private emails to the people they think will want to buy it and sell it that way without involving the forum. I feel the mission of this forum is the persuit of knowledge not profit.

Lew

[TVV]

Gentlemen,

Let's calm down.

First, let us remember that participation in this forums is a privilege. So is advertising in the swap forum, and currently it is a free service available to all members. Eventually, it is up to the people who created this on-line place, who pay for its hosting and who invest time and effort into maintaining it to decide what the purpose of the swap forum is and therefore what the rules, including the rules in the swap section, should be.

In light of the above, I do not consider this thread a popular vote, and I hope that my participation here is not going to be misconstrued as taking one side or another. It is a mere point of view. And in my point of view, it is only reasonable that different people have a different approach to selling (or buying) an item. I understand the concern that some members may use the forum in an attempt to get a profit. It is only rational human behaviour though. Let's say that someone posts an item, but no price, in hopes of getting an offer that exceeds this person's wildest dreams. Then let's say such an offer is actually presented. In the end, both parties will likely be happy, because the buyer would have acquired the item at an amount proposed and thus perfectly acceptable by the buyer, and the seller will get more than expected. Perhaps the buyer would have over-paid for the item, but this was the buyer's decision, which he was not tricked into. And also, collecting is an irrational hobbi, and prices are determined based on too many subjective factors, so it is perfectly possible for an item to be worth more to one person than to anyone else. On top of this, most of the items we collect, are more or less unique.

I also prefer seeing a posted price, because when I shop I like to compare my options. However, sellers also want to have options to compare.

With this in mind, let me just point out that I would be happy whatever the final decision is, as long as we are able to keep this privilege of the swap forum and it is not taken away from us. Seeing the way the discussion is going, I am starting to get worried that the swap forum might be closed altogether.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I don't understand why some sellers are so coy about posting the price they want for a particular item, if they are knowledgeable enough then they will know the true value of their goods. Maybe they should take into account that potential buyers may not be comfortable with making an offer on an item that they are not totally familiar with. Remember a buyer neither wishes to appear ignorant or insulting by offering a price that is too low but then again is understandingly reticent in offering a price that may be over the right and proper market value. I don't think any Forum members would knowingly take advantage of another in either direction. The price a seller originally paid for an item has absolutely no bearing on subsequent sales, the marketplace is full of swings and roundabouts. What's wrong with a guide price, something the seller would be more than happy with and take it from there, haggling is an ancient and respectable method of reaching a price that both parties find acceptable.
Regards,
Norman.

[Rick]

Gentlemen, this thread is strictly for input from members; no vote at all will be taken from the results . :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Some of you may be aware that as well as being a collector, I also deal.

The ways in which I sell depend upon the item that I wish to sell.

Perhaps half of what I sell is listed in a periodic catalogue with a fixed price. The items in the catalogues are are all relatively low cost items for which I can determine a fair market value.

Most of the items that I sell that are not listed in catalogues, are sold to people whom I know, or who contact me, and who want something "special".

These "special" sales often involve a lot more effort on my part than the catalogue sales, because I need to research the market in order to determine what is a fair price. I do have a lot of very good contacts, which makes this easier, but even so, and even with my experience, it is not always easy to fix that "fair market price"---and the price must be fair, because if it is not , if I fix too high a price, it can adversely effect my reputation.

For some things I cannot take into consideration my purchase cost, because the purchase may have occurred more than 50 years ago, when I began to collect, or the item being sold might have come from my grandfather, who may have purchased it prior to 1920.

However, some of the things that I sell carry values that are far, far too high to be listed in catalogues, and for which there are only a very few buyers across the entire world. One way to sell this type of thing is to place it with a reputable auctioneer. However, since I live in Australia, that auctioneer would need to be (probably) in Europe.Then there are the fees attached to a conventional auction process, and these fees simply drive the reserve price higher than it need be.

To my mind, there is only one civilised way to sell an item of this type, and it is to engage in negotiation with the potential buyer.

One way to engage in negotiation with a potential buyer is to invite offers. This is a legitimate way to sell something, and is effectively no different from a tendering process, a process that is frequently used for sale of real estate, and for sale of goods or services to large organisations.

In my opinion the invitation of an offer to purchase is just as legitimate a way to exchange ownership rights in goods as is an offer to sell for a named price. Both methods are equally legitimate, both have their points of strength, and both have their points of weakness.

The Ethnographic Edged Weapons Forum is effectively a big club. The relationships that exist between members of this "club", are not unlike the relationships that exist between members of any other club.

In a real-life club in any sphere of collecting the members will often carry out profitless exchanges that are based on many things other than the value of the items exchanged.Similarly, they will often sell for the same price at which they purchased, perhaps many years ago.

However, these below market value sales, and "even value" swaps will only be made between fellow collectors. If a dealer comes on the scene, the item will be sold for market value.

It is obvious that the only way in which a seller can maintain control over who he wishes to sell to, in an online swap venue, as opposed to a real-life swap venue, is to invite offers.The seller can then accept the offer of the person he wishes to sell to, perhaps incorporating a true swap, as a part of the deal.

The invitation of offers to purchase is to my mind a legitimate practice, and rather than one lacking integrity, it provides a way to preserve the integrity of the ideals of pure collecting.

However, what I consider to have no place at all in swap forum is the placement of advertisements by known dealers. I feel that this practice destroys the basic purpose of the swap forum, and should be banned.

If dealers wish to advertise in a forum having the nature of The Ethnographic Edged Weapons Forum, I believe a separate venue should be made available for them, and they should pay a fee for the privilege of lodging advertisements there.

[ward]

I am a dealer and collector. Generally I do not advertise on the forum unless I have a few items on ebay that I think members would be interested in and just give a link. Otherwise it is a few odd pieces I generally respond on this forum for fun more than anything else. Yes I learn some things and hopefully sometimes teach. I personally do not like give me a offer routine, but I do use it on online auctions and if it is in the ball park will generally except the offer. These weapons often get into large money amounts and to dismiss this is foolish. The borderline between dealer and collector is often fuzzy.

[fernando]

Fernando, this is the most ridiculous comment one can come up with when talking about ANY antiques (I am sorry - I am saying it in a friendly way). I am sure some people do it - and this is their choice, but believe me - it's amature and very low grade. No serious antique collector, dealer or intelligent seller volunteer their cost. It is mostly used to trick a buyer as to saying "look, I am doing you a favor by selling with such a low profit", and it always irritates me. The market and individual interests should dictate the price, not what the seller paid for it! Economics 101 (and little common sense):-)
this is why I'd not put it for sale here (regretfully), I'll take it to an auction and let the market decide the price, not politics:-)

I should thank you for your opinion, Alex, once you consider it a friendly one :rolleyes:
You might either find my coment ridiculous, as a result of having reasoning over it, or just call it so, as a reaction, which is a different thing; or you just didn't get my point, due to my poor english.
I was only trying to remind you that you were demonstrating a recipee vocationed to profit speculation, and not at all an intention to let go something without loosing the money you invested plus the costs involved in its timely maintainance, inflation and that kind of eventual added values.
It is realy hard to exchange opinnions with someone who atributes a marketing identity to the articles they want to sell, as their intention is not to pass the said article on to the next guy for collecting reasons, but indeed a purpose of making good money with it ... eventually including to buy the thing in the first place with the idea to sell it, and never to keep it.
I don't think anybody is considering that being a dealer is wrong, for what matters; what could be wrong and is (i think) under discussion is the place where dealers want to exercize their skills ... like in this comunity swap forum.
Fernando.

[ALEX]

...
The invitation of offers to purchase is to my mind a legitimate practice, and rather than one lacking integrity, it provides a way to preserve the integrity of the ideals of pure collecting
...


Very wise and well said, Alan !

Yes, the "market approach" has some profit orientation, but, unless we're trying to build a utopia society here, this is how a healthy economy works. Someone mentioned "Real Estate" before; what they ignore is the fact that 90% of homes were selling for more than the asking price just 5 years ago during the sellers market, and higher offers were a normal practice considering the market conditions, i.e. supply/demand ratio. I understand we're dealing with our hobbies and passions, not real estate, but we still use money, and most sell something to upgrade or modify their collections, i.e. buy something else, preferably better. I personally would love to see more high quality items being offered for sale/trade here, but the notion of "not for profit swap" drives many away to offer their items elsewhere.

[David]

Well, i would say that both sides of the room are taking their argument to unintended extremes. Alex, i don't think anyone here is suggesting a not-for-profit swap forum. Nor do i think that invitations to make an offer is not a legitimate practice for sale.
What is really at the core of this discussion is what is the original intent of the swap and what has it become. It is clear to me that the swap forum is continually abused by dealers who are members of these forums primarily to sell their wares to our members. We all know who these dealers are and just to reinforce their lack of interest in this forum at large they are not the members who we find in discussion of this matter in this thread. I personally find these dealer-only members a great annoyance. Unfortunately the rules as they stand allow a loophole for their continued practice here.
Personally i don't care if a member here asks for offers on a piece. I am more than likely not going to participate in such a silent auction and from the responses on this thread it would seem that most other members would choose not to make an offer as well. Still it is the seller's choice at this point in time to do so. The evidence seems to point to the fact that they will indeed get less interested parties than if they posted a price, but hey, that would be the seller's loss i think. However, if eliminating this practice would help to rid us of the dealer-only members who abuse our swap forum i might be for it.
A Rick has pointed out, we are not tallying votes from the membership here.
This is just a discussion. I will say that if you gentlemen can't keep this discussion civil than i would rather see the swap forum disappear altogether. It is secondary, by a long shot, to the intention and purpose of these forums. If people are going to fight about it it is better off gone.

[Dajak]

Ben

I'm sure you have a very good idea who in this forum collects your style of weapons and who from your past business dealings with can afford to by them and not waste your time with fruitless emails. So my solution is since you have so many wonderful pieces you should just send out a private listing to those members and not bother doing a general posting. That way no one's feelings will be hurt when they ask or send you an offer they think is reasonable or affordable and you turn them down.

Lew

Lew don't tell me what I have to do I am not your son .


Ben

[Dajak]

Alex/Ben

I am on a friendly basis with many of the members of this forum and feel like we are a band of brothers here and many times I have sold items at or below my cost because I am looking to buy something new or I have lost interest in a certain ethnographic area and I am just looking to sell off what I no longer have interest in. I don't think any member should be using the forum as a profit outlet. So please if a member has an item and he does not want to put up the price up front they should send out private emails to the people they think will want to buy it and sell it that way without involving the forum. I feel the mission of this forum is the persuit of knowledge not profit.

Lew

Let the people decide what they want to do you don't need to decide for them .


Ben

[Lew]

Let the people decide what they want to do you don't need to decide for them . Lew don't tell me what I have to do I am not your son .


Lew don't tell me what I have to do I am not your son .





Ben

Ben

It was a constructive suggestion and your previous comment was uncalled for. You making this into a personal issue and it's not.


Lew

[fernando]

... and many times I have sold items at or below my cost because I am looking to buy something new or I have lost interest in a certain ethnographic area and I am just looking to sell off what I no longer have interest in ...


Your statement gives me some confort, for i am glad i'm not alone in that issue.
Fernando

[Lew]

Your statement gives me some confort, for i am glad i'm not alone in that issue.
Fernando

Fernando

I collect just for the joy of collecting it is one of my true passions in my life.

Lew

[Dajak]

Ben

I'm sure you have a very good idea who in this forum collects your style of weapons and who from your past business dealings with can afford to by them and not waste your time with fruitless emails. So my solution is since you have so many wonderful pieces you should just send out a private listing to those members and not bother doing a general posting. That way no one's feelings will be hurt when they ask or send you an offer they think is reasonable or affordable and you turn them down.

Lew



This says solution not suggestion a way different or do I see this wrong



I really don t need your solution on what I do or not Lew I tougth I made this clear .



I think everyone has to be free in his choice with or with out price that is my point .


And I not intend to take things personal to anyone but it is only my reaction what I think .

I don't think it is normall to put anyone your will on that he has it to do the way you want and nothing else .

It is an free world . (at least overhere in the Netherlands)


It also would hurt people if they see an nice weapon that priced 10,000.00
and they see it sold in 2 days.


Ben

[CourseEight]

I've already stated my personal preference for seeing prices on Swap listings. That said, I don't think making a forum rule concerning how individuals can sell or trade is a good idea; the spectrum of possibilities makes it rather unenforcible anyway. And I'm sure there are less experienced sellers out there who would benefit from the offering process in the same way that inexperienced buyers would benefit from seeing prices of past sales.

However, I'd like to put out a few suggestions that may alleviate some transparency concerns while still maintaining fair value for the seller, and also may attract buyers like myself that shy away from the offering process. While it is often unclear what the market value is of a piece, normally someone selling an item has either a price below which they would not sell, or a price which they would take regardless of what they can get. In the former, a statement such as "accepting offers above $X.XX" would both preserve the ability to go higher and also give forumites an order of magnitude estimate of the value of the piece. Even auctions have an opening bid. In the latter, starting with a very high price and including the "or best offer" tag would serve a similar role.

Finally for those members who are interested in furthering the education of their fellow forumites, it would be nice if the final price of the sale were posted, although of course not necessarily the person who bought it.

Just my thoughts,

--Radleigh

[katana]

I have been following this with interest...

When I first joined the forum, the swap area had mostly swops and items that were priced. This to me 'upheld' the aims of the forum, to learn, to educate within a community of 'like minded' individuals. By swopping it showed trust, helpfulness and comradery ...afterall it would be very unlikely that the financial value of the pieces swopped would be identical and aided the collections of those members. When items are priced ...it educates us as to the market values of such items and increases our knowledge as to what is reasonable amount to pay for our 'beloved' sharp, pointy things.

Now it is rare to see stated prices, this 'smacks' of commercialism, selling weapons to a 'captive' market at no cost to the seller. This does not benefit the 'community' as a whole....the only beneficary is the seller, whom can increase his profit with this 'closed auction' system.

If a seller is using the swop forum to make profit, that is fine, but state the price. If you are not prepared to list a price or 'offers in the region of' then use EBAY.

This is my opinion of the overall situation, it is not aimed at anyone individually.

Kind Regards David

[Lew]

It also would hurt people if they see an nice weapon that priced 10,000.00
and they see it sold in 2 days.


Ben[/QUOTE]


Ben

It would not hurt me at all I am quite aware of what I can afford to spend on an item so if someone with deep pockets buys it good for them and I hope they are happy with there purchase. At the Timonium auction this past March many swords went for over 25,000 USD and that is fine with me I did not loose any sleep over it. :)

Lew

[CourseEight]

It would not hurt me at all I am quite aware of what I can afford to spend on an item so if someone with deep pockets buys it good for them and I hope they are happy with there purchase. At the Timonium auction this past March many swords went for over 25,000 USD and that is fine with me I did not loose any sleep over it. :)

Lew

Ditto Lew; I see stuff sold on for sale sites and Ebay everyday I can't afford. Some of it, I wouldn't want to spend that price even if I could. Doesn't mean it isn't worth what was paid for it to the seller or to the buyer, just that I have no interest in being a part of that particular market.

[Dajak]

Ditto Lew; I see stuff sold on for sale sites and Ebay everyday I can't afford. Some of it, I wouldn't want to spend that price even if I could. Doesn't mean it isn't worth what was paid for it to the seller or to the buyer, just that I have no interest in being a part of that particular market.



We not on ebay overhere



Ben

[CourseEight]

We not on ebay overhere


All the more reason why one could expect to see higher prices here, and not be "hurt"

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
To possibly satisfy all parties why not have an " Offers Over " system as advocated by Radleigh, e.g. an item is advertised at Offers Over a price selected by the seller, those who are interested will know roughly what kind of price is anticipated and can offer what they want over that price, the seller can either accept immediately or set a closing date for offers i.e. a date after which no more offers are sought, and then decide which offer to accept on the proviso of course that they, the seller, is not obliged to accept the highest or indeed any offer. This is still a form of closed auction but is has been the way Scottish real estate has been sold for a very long time and seems to work well for both buyer and seller. In the case of property, of course, most people would seek independent 'expert' advice on price.
Regards,
Norman.

[David]

I have no authority as a moderator in this particular forum....but i do have some close friends who do. ;)
I strongly suggest that this conversation gets civil fast or this topic might very well become one that you might only be able to discuss one-to-one in PMs. :eek:

[fernando]

I don't think it is so dificult to separate the waters.
After all, it is all a question of good faith. We all (i mean all) know the purpose this comunity.
It is a common event to post a piece in the main discussion Forum, to ask the opinnion of members, eventually from those more qualified in the said piece. Within the same logic, one can post a piece in the swap Forum with the intention to ask the members how much that piece is worth, according to their experience and different geographic situation ... prices are not the same in the various countries, or market areas.
This also doesn't impeach one to decide to sell the said piece, after having made such consultation.
Other than that, i don't think is reasonable to come around with articles for commercial purposes, one after the other, and instigate the members to make offers, on a permanent basis. By mentioning the term offers i am not intending to individualize the issue; i could as well mention other kind of unorthodox procedures, considering a place where profit stands ( or should stand) in the end of the priorities queue.
It's the doing this by system that is at question, not a sporadic attitude.
This to say that rules aren't necessarily what is needed here, but moderation instead. Moderators are there to diagnosis vicious processes and intervene by calling this or that person's attention with injections of common sense.
One thing is inequivocous and of general agreement; the Forum is not a business place. One can be a buyer, a seller, a non buyer or a non seller.
We all surely know in which waters we are sailing, when we come in here.
With all respect, Gentlemen
Fernando

[Henk]

David,

I do agree with you.

Gentlemen, C'est le ton qui fait la musique!! No offense, but some members do pick the wrong string. That kind of music doesn't sound very nice.

That we act like little children while collecting, ok!! But not when we are discussing on this sophisticated forum.

[Dajak]

All the more reason why one could expect to see higher prices here, and not be "hurt"

It looks that some peopke get hurt with no price on it .


Ben

[Dajak]

I don't think it is so dificult to separate the waters.
After all, it is all a question of good faith. We all (i mean all) know the purpose this comunity.
It is a common event to post a piece in the main discussion Forum, to ask the opinnion of members, eventually from those more qualified in the said piece. Within the same logic, one can post a piece in the swap Forum with the intention to ask the members how much that piece is worth, according to their experience and different geographic situation ... prices are not the same in the various countries, or market areas.
This also doesn't impeach one to decide to sell the said piece, after having made such consultation.
Other than that, i don't think is reasonable to come around with articles for commercial purposes, one after the other, and instigate the members to make offers, on a permanent basis. By mentioning the term offers i am not intending to individualize the issue; i could as well mention other kind of unorthodox procedures, considering a place where profit stands ( or should stand) in the end of the priorities queue.
It's the doing this by system that is at question, not a sporadic attitude.
This to say that rules aren't necessarily what is needed here, but moderation instead. Moderators are there to diagnosis vicious processes and intervene by calling this or that person's attention with injections of common sense.
One thing is inequivocous and of general agreement; the Forum is not a business place. One can be a buyer, a seller, a non buyer or a non seller.
We all surely know in which waters we are sailing, when we come in here.


With all respect, Gentlemen

fernando



My Items are for sale or trade so you don't need money to get an Item from me .


Ben

[fernando]

My Items are for sale or trade so you don't need money to get an Item from me .
Ben
Sorry Ben, i am not adressing you in particular ... you don't need bother replying.
I wish you all the best
Met vriendelijke groeten
Fernando

[Bill M]

Like David and some others, I am concerned about the tone of this thread. It seems obvious that some sellers do not want to post prices. I doubt that any amount of argument will change their minds, and, truthfully it is their prerogative NOT to post prices and just ask for offers.

Personally I do not make offers unless there is a stated price, then, I may ask for maybe a 10% discount. This is my prerogative, my right.

I had a bad experience with a dealer. Not anyone who advertises here. I find it foolish that this dealer chose to antagonize someone who buys as many high end expensive pieces as I do. But he did. His mistake. I will not buy from him again. I do not make offers. But this is just me, because I had a bad experience with one person.

I see no reason as to why a seller has a "make offers", BUT if that is how they want to handle their business, that is up to them. Their right, and I think it is very much amiss (and against the overall tone of this fine Forum) that these sellers be criticized for their business policy.

Obviously this method of sales works for them.

Personally as the original poster of this thread, I think it has said about all it needs to say -- and too much more -- and I would suggest that David and his friends close it.

80 posts on this subject are enough.

[Dajak]

Like David and some others, I am concerned about the tone of this thread. It seems obvious that some sellers do not want to post prices. I doubt that any amount of argument will change their minds, and, truthfully it is their prerogative NOT to post prices and just ask for offers.

Personally I do not make offers unless there is a stated price, then, I may ask for maybe a 10% discount. This is my prerogative, my right.

I had a bad experience with a dealer. Not anyone who advertises here. I find it foolish that this dealer chose to antagonize someone who buys as many high end expensive pieces as I do. But he did. His mistake. I will not buy from him again. I do not make offers. But this is just me, because I had a bad experience with one person.

I see no reason as to why a seller has a "make offers", BUT if that is how they want to handle their business, that is up to them. Their right, and I think it is very much amiss (and against the overall tone of this fine Forum) that these sellers be criticized for their business policy.

Obviously this method of sales works for them.

Personally as the original poster of this thread, I think it has said about all it needs to say -- and too much more -- and I would suggest that David and his friends close it.

80 posts on this subject are enough.



I am not concerned about the tone but what some people try to do in this thread that is what we should be not forget .

I think anyone should be able to choose offer or no offer .

Ben

[Henk]

Indeed time to close this thread, Bill.

Moderators, please........

[VANDOO]

I ALSO AGREE JUST ABOUT ALL THAT CAN BE SAID HAS BEEN SAID.

BUT :D :D :D :p
THIS TOPIC GIVES YOU SOME IDEAS OF THE OPINIONS AND THE DIFERENCES AMOUNG COLLECTORS, SELLERS AND SELLER-COLLECTORS. WE ARE ALL ALIKE IN SOME WAYS OF THINKING AND DIFFERENT IN OTHERS, WE ARE A GROUP FROM VARIOUS DIFFERENT COUNTRYS, BACKGROUNDS, RACES, LEVELS OF EDUCATION AND ECONOMIC ABILITYS THIS ALSO INFLUENCES OUR WAYS OF THINKING. BUT REGARDLESS OF ALL THAT WE ALL HAVE SOMETHING TO CONTRIBUTE TO THIS FORUM.
WE ALL LOVE A GOOD DEAL AND HATE TO GET TAKEN. SOME ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE MONEY MAKEING END OF COLLECTING AND SOME ARE. IT IS A KIND OF WAY OF KEEPING SCORE AND IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR US ALL TO MAKE MONEY ON OUR ITEMS WHEN WE SELL THAN TO LOSE. I AM NOT GOOD AT MARKET VALUES SO I HESITATE TO MAKE BLIND OFFERS OR TO TAKE OFFERS THAT ALSO MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO TRADE IF I SEE A PRICE I CAN AFFORD I JUMP IN IF IT IS OUT OF MY LEAGUE I GO GET A DRINK :D .
I DON'T THINK THIS POST STARTED TO CRITISIZE A SELLER BUT TO ASK A QUESTION SO IT SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AN ATTACK BY ANYONE AND THINGS HAVE BEEN LEARNED FROM IT SO IT WAS WORTH DOING.
WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT STYLES AND PERSONALITYS AND SOME OF US WILL NATURALLY RUB THE OTHERS THE WRONG WAY AND MISUNDERSTANDINGS AND ARGUMENTS WILL HAPPEN BUT THEY DON'T NEED TO CARRY OVER INTO THE FORUM. I AM SURE SOME DON'T LIKE MY USE OF ALL CAP'S OR PHILOSOPHY WHEN I HAVE NO DEGREE, BUT I CAN BE SERIOUS AND HAVE FUN AT THE SAME TIME :p

MY PERSONEL CONSENSIS: NO NEW FORUM RULES NEED BE DRAWN UP, IF DEALERS WANT TO SELL OR SWAP THEIR ITEMS ITS OK. PRICES OR NOT. THERE IS NO SHAME IN COMMING DOWN ON YOUR FIRST POSTED PRICE IF YOU GET NO OFFERS :cool: IF A SELLER JUST ADVERTIZES HIS AUCTIONS OR STORE HE MAY GET SOME BUSINESS IF HIS STOCK IS WORTHY OTHERWISE HE IS WASTEING HIS TIME ON OUR SWAP FORUM. DID I MISS ANYTHING ;)

[Dajak]

I ALSO AGREE JUST ABOUT ALL THAT CAN BE SAID HAS BEEN SAID.

BUT :D :D :D :p
THIS TOPIC GIVES YOU SOME IDEAS OF THE OPINIONS AND THE DIFERENCES AMOUNG COLLECTORS, SELLERS AND SELLER-COLLECTORS. WE ARE ALL ALIKE IN SOME WAYS OF THINKING AND DIFFERENT IN OTHERS, WE ARE A GROUP FROM VARIOUS DIFFERENT COUNTRYS, BACKGROUNDS, RACES, LEVELS OF EDUCATION AND ECONOMIC ABILITYS THIS ALSO INFLUENCES OUR WAYS OF THINKING. BUT REGARDLESS OF ALL THAT WE ALL HAVE SOMETHING TO CONTRIBUTE TO THIS FORUM.
WE ALL LOVE A GOOD DEAL AND HATE TO GET TAKEN. SOME ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THE MONEY MAKEING END OF COLLECTING AND SOME ARE. IT IS A KIND OF WAY OF KEEPING SCORE AND IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR US ALL TO MAKE MONEY ON OUR ITEMS WHEN WE SELL THAN TO LOSE. I AM NOT GOOD AT MARKET VALUES SO I HESITATE TO MAKE BLIND OFFERS OR TO TAKE OFFERS THAT ALSO MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO TRADE IF I SEE A PRICE I CAN AFFORD I JUMP IN IF IT IS OUT OF MY LEAGUE I GO GET A DRINK :D .
I DON'T THINK THIS POST STARTED TO CRITISIZE A SELLER BUT TO ASK A QUESTION SO IT SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AN ATTACK BY ANYONE AND THINGS HAVE BEEN LEARNED FROM IT SO IT WAS WORTH DOING.
WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT STYLES AND PERSONALITYS AND SOME OF US WILL NATURALLY RUB THE OTHERS THE WRONG WAY AND MISUNDERSTANDINGS AND ARGUMENTS WILL HAPPEN BUT THEY DON'T NEED TO CARRY OVER INTO THE FORUM. I AM SURE SOME DON'T LIKE MY USE OF ALL CAP'S OR PHILOSOPHY WHEN I HAVE NO DEGREE, BUT I CAN BE SERIOUS AND HAVE FUN AT THE SAME TIME :p

MY PERSONEL CONSENSIS: NO NEW FORUM RULES NEED BE DRAWN UP, IF DEALERS WANT TO SELL OR SWAP THEIR ITEMS ITS OK. PRICES OR NOT. THERE IS NO SHAME IN COMMING DOWN ON YOUR FIRST POSTED PRICE IF YOU GET NO OFFERS :cool: IF A SELLER JUST ADVERTIZES HIS AUCTIONS OR STORE HE MAY GET SOME BUSINESS IF HIS STOCK IS WORTHY OTHERWISE HE IS WASTEING HIS TIME ON OUR SWAP FORUM. DID I MISS ANYTHING ;)


This is an good thing you come up with Vandoo .

I agree on this .

Ben

[Bill M]

I agree also.