Moro Armor Arabic Inscription

[baganing_balyan]

Hi. I am interested to know the English translation of the arabic inscription on this armor. thanks.

moro armor (http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=2513)

[Battara]

If you ever find a translation, please post it here......that would be great! :)

[baganing_balyan]

i wish someone can translate this. I know for sure that this is a turkish inscription since I saw the first line on a turkish helmet and on a blade.

[Lew]

i wish someone can translate this. I know for sure that this is a turkish inscription since I saw the first line on a turkish helmet and on a blade.

Why would this be specifically a Turkish inscription? It is more likely a general Koranic verse or blessing. Did the Turks use a specific identifiable form of script that can be differentiated from other Islamic groups?

Here is a helpful link.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/turkish.htm

We will need the help of our friend Zifir to see if this is indeed Turkish script.


Lew

[ward]

Arabic is the religoius language of Muslim nations period this looks like Arabic

Ward

[Lew]

Arabic is the religoius language of Muslim nations period this looks like Arabic

Ward

Ward Arabic script had different forms over 500 yrs so there is a difference in the way it is written. Many older variations cannot be understood by modern day Moslems.

Lew

[Lew]

i wish someone can translate this. I know for sure that this is a turkish inscription since I saw the first line on a turkish helmet and on a blade.

baganing_balyan


I just showed the inscription to one of my Yemenite friends in the office and the writing is Arabic not (Perso-Arabic) Ottoman script. It is a verse or verses from the Koran. Nothing to do or identify with Turks at all he said. Koranic verses are found on many swords and armor in the Islamic world from India to the Sudan and from Asia to Eastern Europe it was a common practice. So unless an inscription is written in the Ottoman style there can be no positive link to Turkey or the Ottomans.

Lew

[RhysMichael]

Would a verse from the koran like this be considered an agimat, anting-anting , oracion or none of the above ?
thanks in advance

[Lew]

Would a verse from the koran like this be considered an agimat, anting-anting , oracion or none of the above ?
thanks in advance


RhysMichael

I'm pretty sure this is a form of anting-anting to protect the wearer in battle.



Lew

[ward]

Arabic is the same whether written 800 years ago or today. Their are 4 major script types and some minor ones. THuluth is the one the Turks used most. It is clear and legible unlike some otherts an educated person wrote the lines on that armor. Arabic is a non changing language. Since arabic was given to Mohammed by god and the words of god can not be changed. I can translate admitedly slowly a Koran verse written at 1200 A.D or now and anyone who knows the script changes can also translate it,espeecially Quoranic passages.Arabic is not english which has changed frequently over the years. It is difficult because of the many tenses and pronunciation varies from region to region. Ottoman and modern Turkish are dfferent the main thing is Ottoman was written in Arabic chareacters just like German and Spanish same alphabet but different languages. anting anting yes it is like protection for the wearer

[A. G. Maisey]

Ward, I have a very good friend who lives in Jawa, and who is an Imam.He is a highly educated man and is widely respected for his ability to read Arabic scripts. What you have said above, he has also said to me, however, with one addition:- where the script has been written by a person who does not have a high level of learning, or skill, it can result in forms that are incorrect. If the passage is from Al-Qur'an, this is not usually a problem, because once the passage has been identified, the illegible words will be known.
Often we find inscriptions on the reverse of keris scabbards and their metal covers. Sometimes these are in Javanese---which can also present problems with script---but perhaps as often the inscriptions are supposed to be Arabic, and nearly always the incorrectly formed script presents problems that result in a guessing game.

[ward]

I do not disagee with seeing bad spelling and some terrible handwiting is a problem. You must remember that artisians that are uneducated are very often copying the script off basically a template. I have often seen script written on the wall of a shop and copied letter by letter onto a piece. Just because you can speak arabic does not mean you can read or write. It still does not mean the language has changed. Allah in 800 A.D. is still Allah 2008 A.D.

[Bill M]

Perhaps people can copy letters they may not understand.

Perhaps even Russian and Finish people can sing in English, a language they may not understand. Hope the following link is not to much a diversion from the previous erudite discussion.

At least their hair and shoes look like weapons. I now present one of the most surreal musical renditions it has been my good fortune to experience.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0lNFRLrP014

You might want to engage your computer's audio and let's "get down!"

[A. G. Maisey]

Agreed Ward, the language has not changed, but the way in which it is represented can vary, depending upon the level of knowledge, education, or skill of the person who writes the inscription.

[ward]

If i get a chance this weekend I will take some pics of the various scripts and post them.

[Lew]

Ward

I picked up a very nice tulwar a few months back which had this inscription on the spine. I asked about 10 of my Arabic friends to help me out with the translations but none of them could read. They all told me it was an older script form that they were not familar with. So if Arabic is Arabic why did they have trouble reading it? Btw Ham was able to translate it and it reads "THERE IS NO HERO LIKE 'ALI AND SWORD LIKE DHUL'FAKAR".

Lew

[Lew]

Here is an example of different Arabic script forms. So what I am trying to say that if the script on the armor was Thuluth than it could have been of Ottoman origin but it does not seem to be of that type.

7. Samples of Cursive Styles of Arabic calligraphy. From top to bottom:
Naskh, Thuluth, Muhaqqaq, Nastaliq, and riq'a.

[ward]

reading a individual's handwriting is difficult at times and I believe ham has had a lot of practice at that. If you would look at my english cursive script and my wifes it is like night and day. still the same language but it looks totally different. Caligraphy is another fun one sometimes there is a lot of artistic licence used the look being more important than the message.

[Lew]

Ward

I am not an expert in Arabic and I will have to leave this up to more knowledgeable people :)

Lew

[ward]

Here is a example of moroccan arabic. The scipt is more kufic and messy but it does show how difficult handwriting can be do decipher. This is a student board it was used instead of paper in class. It gets whiped done and when it got really messy was white washed again

[Zifir]

This is a prayer in Arabic, reciting and praising different names of Allah. I could not read all, but for example lines 5th and 6th is read:

La Havle ve la Kuvvete illa billahil aliyyu'l-Azim (There is no power and strength except with Allah, The Grand, The Great)

Although in some places the script is little bit erased or blurred because of the picture, an Arabic speaking member can read it all easily I think. As far as I see there is not anything which can clearly link it to Ottomans.

[ward]

here are 2 types of arabic scripts different regions and within a 100 years or so. They are both chapters from the Koran but even though the scrpts are very different if you look caefully you will see a lot of the same words. Whenever you see a lot of tashkel or voweling( the dashes over top or underneath or little u's or 9's or g's) you can ususally assume that it is a koranic script. In standad arabic the author assumes you know the short voweling of the word and drives any student of arabic crazy.These 2 are the more dramatic changes to the scipting

[ward]

Basically if you study the style of the script and roughly can tell if it is fully voweled. A. you can tell what region the piece is from and B, if it is just a koranic quotation

[Dom]

and if we back to the subject ...... :p
"the mention ot the 13 sentences on this moro armor ??" :D

the translation is the spirit, none word per word, but sentence per sentence
sometime the "spirit" is on two (2) sentences, will be mentionned by // and (??)

1 )In the name of God
2) you are my God , no other God
3) only you, I’m in dependance on you
4) you are the God of the Great Throne (reference to Kuran Surate)
5) there is force and power only in God
6) the High and the Great //
7) God willing // (7) God is protecting you
8) I confess that only one God
9) you have to know than the God //
10) he is // (10) omnipotent in everything and the God
11) is surrounded himself with //
12) // (11) knowledge of everything ??????????????
13) ????????????

religious dedicace, but not Kuranic, wrote in Arabic

may I add some comments :p
if some one here for time being has a good knowledge in
- Islam religion
- Islamic writting
IT'S WARD :D ..... at least after my charming translator, because
all what I read from him make a sense, and conform to my background :p

me .... a shame ... I am just like a parrot ... no more,
if I speak not too bad arabic, I dunno to write or to read :(

à +

Dom

[Dom]

Would a verse from the koran like this be considered an agimat, anting-anting
yes, one verse it's reputated to have that power
- verse of the "Throne" number 254 from surate 2 el Baqarah (the cow)

as well as in use in "Islamic Magic Medicinal Bowl" (my other hobby ... collection of more than 30 ... pieces :p )

à +

Dom

[nacho]

All very interesting and informative. The subject armor is now on display at the Yuchenco Museum in Makati (Philippines) in connection with their exhibit on SULU. It is one of the more popular items on display -- particularly because of the arabic inscriptions.

[nacho]

very informative. The armor being discussed is currently displayed at the Yuchenco Museum in the Philippines in connection with its SULU Exhibit.

[salaghati]

Baganing_balyan has an interesting post on her blog regarding this topic--Arabic On Moro Armor (http://12fma.blogspot.com/)