Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[baganing_balyan]

I just want to share my research.

http://12fma.blogspot.com/2008/06/kali-from-kalis-martial-art.html

http://12fma.blogspot.com/2008/06/kris-keras-keris-kilich-and-kalis.html

http://12fma.blogspot.com/2008/06/kali-from-kalis-martial-art.html

:)

[Rick]

Welcome to the forums . :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Interesting thoughts, barganing balyan.

I most particularly find your second link to be of great interest.

Principally because you have used a photograph that I produced and which appears in my site. The photograph is one of a ploncon containing some keris from my personal collection.

Moreover, you have used this photograph without first obtaining my permission to use it.

barganing balyan, please let me assure you that I have no objection to your use of this photograph, and you may continue to use it in the article that already contains it.

However, I would very much appreciate it if in future you wish to use any of my photographs, you would first pay me the courtesy of asking if you may use them.

[baganing_balyan]

Interesting thoughts, barganing balyan.

I most particularly find your second link to be of great interest.

Principally because you have used a photograph that I produced and which appears in my site. The photograph is one of a ploncon containing some keris from my personal collection.

Moreover, you have used this photograph without first obtaining my permission to use it.

barganing balyan, please let me assure you that I have no objection to your use of this photograph, and you may continue to use it in the article that already contains it.

However, I would very much appreciate it if in future you wish to use any of my photographs, you would first pay me the courtesy of asking if you may use them.

Thanks and sorry. I wrote in my blog that i used online materials. had it not been a blog, i would make footnotes and bibliography-- for strict academic purpose.

I have a problem though. I belong to a group called mandaya in the philippines. I seldom see authentic traditional weapons nowadays. I would like to suggest that, for the sake of cultural preservation, you would sha2re your ethnographic materials and photos for non-profit cultural work to anyone interested.

Thanks a lot.

[Andrew]

Thanks and sorry. I wrote in my blog that i used online materials. had it not been a blog, i would make footnotes and bibliography-- for strict academic purpose.

I have a problem though. I belong to a group called mandaya in the philippines. I seldom see authentic traditional weapons nowadays. I would like to suggest that, for the sake of cultural preservation, you would sha2re your ethnographic materials and photos for non-profit cultural work to anyone interested.

Thanks a lot.

Welcome! :cool:

Take a spin through our archives--I think you'll be pleased to see how free we are with our ethnographic materials and photos. :)

Here's a link to a museum exhibition in Macau some of our members contributed to that you may find interesting:

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/message.htm

[Battara]

Mabuhay! We have discussed Mandaya weaponry several times on this forum - please use "mandaya" in the search engine on this forum.


Mabuting Kapilaran!

[Nonoy Tan]

Interesting and fine work you are doing, Baganing_balyan. I hope to see your work grow.

maraming salamat po!

[baganing_balyan]

Some people think that connecting Mindanao to Ottoman is outrageous. I have found texts that support my contention.

I have also found a photo of a moro armor with arabic/quranic inscription-- a warrior tradition of the Ottomans. I will write a post about them soon.

The reason also that I cannot accept Kris/keris/kalis as a pure Malay invention or sword is because of the linguistic facts. If they have no outside influences, a keris anywhere should have been a keris everywhere. Take the example of sundang. We use "sundang", and it is used by our malay neighbors.

thanks again.

[A. G. Maisey]

I will not buy into a discussion involving keris + kalis, however, there is now no doubt at all that the Javanese keris is of uniquely Javanese origin, from Indian souces.

From Jawa the keris spread into other parts of S.E. Asia, and in these other places developed its own character. In some instances it probably maintained a form closer to its origins than the developed form of the Javanese keris.

Of course the keris is not of Malay origin.

[PenangsangII]

Some people think that connecting Mindanao to Ottoman is outrageous. I have found texts that support my contention.

I have also found a photo of a moro armor with arabic/quranic inscription-- a warrior tradition of the Ottomans. I will write a post about them soon.

The reason also that I cannot accept Kris/keris/kalis as a pure Malay invention or sword is because of the linguistic facts. If they have no outside influences, a keris anywhere should have been a keris everywhere. Take the example of sundang. We use "sundang", and it is used by our malay neighbors.

thanks again.

Mabuhay,

I hope to see your further writings in this regards, and also your references to back it up. It's enlightening to read your articles, but at the same time it makes me wonder from where you get the sources to come to your conclusion. Anyway, I admire your works..... in fact I admire all works as far as kris / keris are concerned. ;)

[David]

The reason also that I cannot accept Kris/keris/kalis as a pure Malay invention or sword is because of the linguistic facts. If they have no outside influences, a keris anywhere should have been a keris everywhere. Take the example of sundang. We use "sundang", and it is used by our malay neighbors.
These are all words that have found that have been applied to describe the keris: kris, kres, kress, curiga, dhuwung, wangkingan, kadutan, kedutan, tappi, selle, gayang, karieh, kadga, tosan aji.

Various names for the keris hilt: hulu, ukiran, dederan, jejeran, danganan

As far as i can tell most of these names do not stem from outside influences, but from within the region of origin. While a few like kris, kres and kress are obviously linked linguistically most are not.
The word for keris changes depending upon what island you are on and even what level of speech you are discussing it on a given island. This is not due to outside influences of it's origin.

[baganing_balyan]

Although my interest is primarily about kalis or mindanaoan kris, I have found interesting etymologies and folklore that point the very origin of kris back to the temples of southern and northern India.

A malaysian website has accused me of assuming without bases. That's not really the case.

for instance: when I said naga (snake) sword orginally evolved from nair malabar. I analyzed the sanskrit etymology of naga, nagar, nayar, and nair. I also checked the snake-based belief system of the nayar or nair people. I also went back to Mahabharata, a hindu epic, to check the relationship between garuda, the bird-man, and the nagas, the snake people.

I did not include them in my blog since there is no obvious philippine connection.

nayar or nair people believe in snake gods. nagar or naga (snake) came from that belief system and from the folklore of those believers.

the nayars and nairs belong to a higher cast-- probably Brahmin since nayar is also related to temple-- thus, nair malabar, the temple sword.

Buddhists too have a concept of naga-- power and protection. There are images of buddha hovered by cobras or serpents.

Any place reached by Buddhism, there is a concept and image of naga-- thailand, cambodia, vietnam, indonesia, malaysia, but not philippines. There is no known pre-spanish buddhist account in the philippines. that's the reason why the handles of mindanaon krises are different-- no indo-buddhist handles depicting garuda or naga.

People ask me for bibliography, i am writing a blog not a paper. My only hope is to produce a seminal idea that will hopefully challenge researchers all over who have access and resources to expound more.

I use Mahabaratha and ramayana for instance to understand Indian folklore. Do i need to write even the name of the translator? I don't think so. I expect though for anyone interested to check the epics. They can even be read online.

I just don't understand why I often read that kris is not of malay origin but of javanese. Aren't javanese malay? Javanese language is austronesian related to other austronesian languages in southeast asia like Tagalog of the Philippines.

There are also temples in North India where the images of naga sword predate the javanese temple reliefs by centuries. In an archaeological point of view, that is enough an indication that keris could come from naga of northern India. The fact also that Indo-buddhist empires were established in Java, the idea that keris is of Indo-Buddhist origin is reinforced.

Thanks a lot.

baganing-balyan

[baganing_balyan]

in addition:

It would be easy to assume that keris is from kilis and kilich, but i have no basis to base that from since I am not sure if ch can be s and L can be R in early languages of java and sumatra. One thing I am sure though is that kalimantan is not the same as karimantan.

if R and L can be interchangeably used, then I assume it is a later evolution as a linguistic pattern. since etymological analysis suggests that kalimantan is from kali-- not kari-- and mantan. there are no malay words such as kaliman, liman, and limantan, so liman cannot be a root word.

I do, however, use keras because its meanings symbolize the form and use of keris. Do I have a proof? Linguistic etymology or word relationship is my proof in the absence of texts and written history.

if later I find an evidence that indeed keris is from kilis/kilich, then keras, as a word, evolved from keris.

I just don't think that we cannot imply from a sound fact to reconstruct history.

[A. G. Maisey]

Baganing, some of your ideas are interesting, but I do feel you still have a little way to go.

[baganing_balyan]

These are all words that have found that have been applied to describe the keris: kris, kres, kress, curiga, dhuwung, wangkingan, kadutan, kedutan, tappi, selle, gayang, karieh, kadga, tosan aji.

Various names for the keris hilt: hulu, ukiran, dederan, jejeran, danganan

As far as i can tell most of these names do not stem from outside influences, but from within the region of origin. While a few like kris, kres and kress are obviously linked linguistically most are not.
The word for keris changes depending upon what island you are on and even what level of speech you are discussing it on a given island. This is not due to outside influences of it's origin.

regarding the hilt or handle, those words are not really specific names: hulu for instance is head. a child has hulu too. Ukiran is the same; it is image or design. Sarong has Ukiran. Danganan is destruction. An epidemic is also danganan. I am not sure about dederan or jejeran. Among the non-muslim ivatans of northern tip of luzon, it means to circle. They have letter J in their language too.

"Ukiran" is also a proof that a keris indeed evolved to become kalis in Mindanao. Ukir or Okir in Mindanao is an art form and it is not used in relation to kris unless Okir designs are etched on the blade or carved on the hilt or handle, which are rare. Filipino Ukit--to draw or carve--came from ukir or okir.

Regarding the different names of keris, i think they were later development. Most of them were originally metaphors and symbolisms and some were form and movement initially used in oral literature and folklore to describe a revered sword as keris had become a symbol of a culture and an image of power for a warrior. I think keris was the original name since that was the word where the Anglicized creese and kris originally came from.

[David]

regarding the hilt or handle, those words are not really specific names: hulu for instance is head. a child has hulu too. Ukiran is the same; it is image or design. Sarong has Ukiran. Danganan is destruction. An epidemic is also danganan. I am not sure about dederan or jejeran. Among the non-muslim ivatans of northern tip of luzon, it means to circle. They have letter J in their language too.

"Ukiran" is also a proof that a keris indeed evolved to become kalis in Mindanao. Ukir or Okir in Mindanao is an art form and it is not used in relation to kris unless Okir designs are etched on the blade or carved on the hilt or handle, which are rare. Filipino Ukit--to draw or carve--came from ukir or okir.

Regarding the different names of keris, i think they were later development. Most of them were originally metaphors and symbolisms and some were form and movement initially used in oral literature and folklore to describe a revered sword as keris had become a symbol of a culture and an image of power for a warrior. I think keris was the original name since that was the word where the Anglicized creese and kris originally came from.
That words like hulu (head) and ukiran (design?) have other meanings in the language in no way means they should be disregarded as legitimate ways to describe that object. That is, afterall, one of the ways language works, isn't it. Not every word in a language is completely unique to the object described.
I could be wrong, but i think i recall that "curiga" is one of the oldest recorded words for the keris from a pre-anglican source. By your own accounts the word "keris" wasn't anglicized until 1580. There is quite a bit of keris history that precedes that date, almost as much as comes after, so it seems a bit presumptuous to assume that the keris had no other name previous to this date. Keris has been the generally accepted term in modern times by people throughout the region (and world), but there were times when that word would be meaningless in certain parts of Indonesia where other terminology was in used. Keris has undoubtly won out as the preferred name simply because it is the name that was anglicized, not because it was either the original or more "correct" word for the object.
I also think that you will find that the same word in different parts of the region can have slightly different meanings. Sundang, for instance, can refer to a sword length kris in some areas, but is merely a word for sword in others and is applied to swords which are definitely not kris.
I think that in the end this name game is much more complex than you are making it out to be. :)
"Ukiran" is also a proof that a keris indeed evolved to become kalis in Mindanao.
I don't think anyone here would argue that the kalis did indeed develop from it's origins in the Jawa keris. As for okir on Moro kris, i would not say that it is that "rare". I see it often, though certain not on all kris.

[baganing_balyan]

Even curiga is not a specific term related to just Keris. Batik fabric too has "parang curiga"-- curlicue or snake-like design.

I think keris is specific for that kind of sword because of its use, meaning, and symbol being a court and ritual sword. hence, the word keras with many deep meanings describing that sword.

Most blades or swords don't have specific names-- they are basically different words from different dialects and languages with the same meaning-- sword. for instance, talwar is Hindi for sword. Sundang is also a Filipino word for sword. In short, a keris can be sundang or talwar depending on the language or dialect used, but sundang and talwar are not kerises.

In the philippines, a Keris or kalis can be called itak, taga, sundang the filipino words for sword, bolo, machete, and other that resemble to a sword. but in Muslim Mindanao it is kalis because it is not just a sword but a sword for ritual, courtly purpose, and social status. I think it is the same thing with keris, it is not just an ordinary sundang even if other dialects or groups call it as such.

I mentioned kalis as an evolved keris because there are still some people who think that kalis is a purely Islamic weapon or that it is purely of javanese origin. Some even think it is purely mindanaon, which is not.

Another thing is the redundancy in terms. Saying "talwar sword" "sundang sword" or "itak sword" are just wrong. But saying keris sword and naga sword are correct. Both keris and Naga identify, describe, and localize both swords according to symbol, meaning, design, form, and other cultural representation.

I don't think there is another term or word earlier than keris. Maybe there were words used for it but they meant sword not as specific names for a sword. They might have even called keris khadga, sanskrit for sword. Was khadga keris? not necessarily, but a khadga became a keris when specific functions, symbols, and meanings were ascribed to the latter. In other words, keris is khadga but khadga is not keris.

[David]

Even curiga is not a specific term related to just Keris. Batik fabric too has "parang curiga"-- curlicue or snake-like design.
These are interesting idea, but if you can't back them up with actual reference they are merely unproven theories. Do you have any references to back up what you say? Do you know, for instance that the use of "parang curiga" as a term in batik existed in the early days of keris when it was (at least in some accounts) referred to as curiga? Or is this batik term merely a more recent co-opting of the word curiga because it resembles an aspect of the keris? You have yet to provide any proof that keris is the original name for this blade. Can you direct us to any pre-anglicized literature that supports your position?
Certainly it would be incorrect to say sundang sword. It is just like saying sword sword. But in the case of Indonesian keris i would say that in most cases i would not refer to it as a keris sword. Mostly they are daggers, not really long enough to be considered swords.
BTW, as for origins, i doubt that you will find many people here who believe that the keris is originally an Islamic weapon. It is fairly common knowledge in these parts that it's origins are Javanese, with influences of an Indian nature. The keris developed when Jawa was a Hindu kingdom.

[A. G. Maisey]

This pursuit of playing with words almost seems to qualify as the ultimate "name game"---which can be fun, and applied in a structured way can possibly produce some enlightening results.However, rather than just haphazardly throw words around, it would be more beneficial if the words were given provenance by naming the language and period from which the word is taken.

For instance baganing tells us that the word "danganan" means "destruction". Perhaps it does in some language, but in Javanese it means "handle".

In Old Javanese, that is the form of Javanese that was in widespread use prior to reforms of the House of Mataram beginning in the 16th-17th centuries, the word "keris" did exist, as also did the word "curiga", however, the word "keras" seems not to appear in Old Javanese, nor does the word "dhuwung", which is Krama (high level) Javanese for "keris". This, of course, is to be expected, as the heirarchical levels of the Javanese language did not really develop until after the House of Mataram set out upon the path of attempting to establish its legitimacy.

barganing, you do have some interesting ideas, but truly, you need to apply some discipline to the structuring and validation of your ideas. I accept that you have already carried out some research, but you need to document that research, and then to structure your arguments in a logical fashion.

Please continue with what you are doing, but please continue in a way that will allow us to accept what you write.

[ward]

Not my area but at least baganing is thinking outside the box here.
By the way big pomels on yatagans is a late development earliest I saw was 18 century. Turkish ones if you can call it that from 16-17 century are small with no ears at all theres some in Topkapi museum so not sure how that influnced the Moro kris like you are saying. Anyway welcome

Ward

[baganing_balyan]

These are interesting idea, but if you can't back them up with actual reference they are merely unproven theories. Do you have any references to back up what you say? Do you know, for instance that the use of "parang curiga" as a term in batik existed in the early days of keris when it was (at least in some accounts) referred to as curiga? Or is this batik term merely a more recent co-opting of the word curiga because it resembles an aspect of the keris? You have yet to provide any proof that keris is the original name for this blade. Can you direct us to any pre-anglicized literature that supports your position?
Certainly it would be incorrect to say sundang sword. It is just like saying sword sword. But in the case of Indonesian keris i would say that in most cases i would not refer to it as a keris sword. Mostly they are daggers, not really long enough to be considered swords.
BTW, as for origins, i doubt that you will find many people here who believe that the keris is originally an Islamic weapon. It is fairly common knowledge in these parts that it's origins are Javanese, with influences of an Indian nature. The keris developed when Jawa was a Hindu kingdom.


I would either be a genius or a clairvoyant if i don't base my ideas on something. But that's not the case. On curiga, for instance, Jan Gonda wrote about the etymology of the word. I just don't find it important to quote him. I would rather go directly to my source-- sanskrit word etymology. Everyone who reads sanskrit knows that churika is a sanskrit for knife or dagger. even if curiga predated keris, it doesn't mean that it was a name for a blade. it was nothing but a javanese word for a knife or dagger.

As i said in my earlier post, I want my writings to be seminal ideas hoping that those who have access to related materials and resources for research can seriously look into my ideas.

for example: My mind tells me that keris came from kilich (turkish) and keras developed from keris but I have limited materials on ottoman influences in southeast asia.

Although I know that the way malay words with foreign influences evolved used the pattern of foreign word first, then literal meaning in local language, and then abstract meaning that still exists today.

kilich (sword in turkish) - kilis/Keris (sword or dagger) - keras (sharp or violent)

churika (knife in Sanskrit) - curika/curiga (knife) - curiga (suspicious)

I still believe that it's possible but I am not sure because I have no materials to prove that keris is from kilich. I hope though that serious keris researcher would look into the turkish/ottoman involvement in the evolution of keris.

The timeline also supports my belief. Late 1300's was the beginning of the ottoman and Islamic expansion. A star beside a crescent was used by the ottomans as image of Islam and adopted by muslims in southeast asia. late 1500's creese or kris entered the english dictionary.

I just don't assume when my sources are weak.

[David]

The timeline also supports my belief. Late 1300's was the beginning of the ottoman and Islamic expansion. A star beside a crescent was used by the ottomans as image of Islam and adopted by muslims in southeast asia. late 1500's creese or kris entered the english dictionary.

I just don't assume when my sources are weak.
I am afraid that the timeline does not support your belief. When do you think the keris was actually developed in Jawa? It was long before the Ottoman and Islamic expansion. Why then would it have originally had a name that is derived from a Turkish source. Sorry, you aren't making sense to me.

[baganing_balyan]

keris, the sword, was already in Java during the rule of srivijayan empire.

Keris, the term, is the most problematic one. It has no etymology in sanskrit, hindi, or Tamil. So I am not really sure if it was also an Indo-Buddhist word.

That's why I said I am not sure because I have limited materials. However, I believe people began to use keris as a word around 1400, and before that, it had an indo-buddhist name-- maybe naga, curiga, or even kali-- I wish I could be sure. It's up to a serious researcher to look into it.

I even want to believe that keris came from kurusooli (Tamil short snake), then kurusu, then keris. Linguistically, that is an overstretch. Who knows? maybe there is evidence hiding somewhere.

[A. G. Maisey]

The proto-keris that we now refer to as the "Keris Buda" first appeared in monumental representations in 10th century Central Jawa.

By about the 14th century it had developed to the form that we know today.

In early Javanese literary works a number of different words are used to refer to the keris. Amongst these words we can find keris(or kris), curigo ( a literary usage), tewek (or twek), tuhuk, duhun, kadgo, panewek.

The principal literary works in which we find these words are the Nagarakertagama (approx. 1360), the Nawatnatya(14th century), the Pararaton (approx. 16th century), then there are minor references in the Rajapatigundala, and the Sarwardharma.

In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt.

In Old Javanese there are a number of words that are associated with the keris:-

akris:- to wear or use a keris
anris and kinris:- to use a keris

then we have:- iris, hiris, aniris, iniris and kahiris, all of which can be understood as to cut or to slice.

taking account of the grammatic structure of Old Javanese there is a clear relationship between the word "iris":- to cut, and keris, a cutting weapon.

It may be argued that the keris is not a cutting weapon, but a stabbing weapon, however, in Old Javanese the distinction between the keris used as a cutting weapon, and the keris used as a stabbing weapon is shown by the use of "tewek", probably in the context of repeated stabbing. On the other hand, thrusts, or slower stabs appear to be denoted by use of the word "tuhuk". When the inference is to the keris as a cutting weapon, then only the word "kris" ( or a derivative) is used. The words used to refer to the keris in Old Javanese give an indication of the nature of the keris in the relative context. A similarity can be seen in the words used to refer to the keris in modern Javanese, where again, an indication is given by the word used, as to the nature of the keris in the relative context.

During the period of development of the keris to its modern form, Jawa was dominated by the Jawa-Hindu faith, which was not displaced by Islam until about 1400. Early Islamic penetration of Jawa did not come from Turkey, but was thought to have been principally from India and China, with some limited numbers of traders from Persia and surrounding areas.

In the 17th century there was certainly some contact between the court of Mataram and Turkey, but the word "kris" and its derivatives had already been in common use in Jawa for at least several hundred years by that time.

The word "kris", or "keris" is without any doubt at all an indigenous Javanese word, and did not enter the Javanese language from any middle eastern language.

baganing, I'm sorry, but your thinking is confused, your presentation is illogical, and you have not yet carried your research far enough, nor in the correct direction.

I do encourage you to continue your research; your approach is valid, your thoughts are original, but you do need to work harder at getting the connections and the logic right.

[baganing_balyan]

14th century Moroccan scholar/explorer Ibn Batuta wrote about a warrior princess of the kingdom between sumadra (sumatra) and china called talawisi, which I think was sulawesi. that was after sailing from India. If you look at the asian map, the route was not far from the majapahit area.

Batuta said the warrior princess spoke Turkish. I think this account needs to be studied too. Why and how Turkish language reached Talawisi will help us understand the extent of ottoman influence in southeast asia.

[Bill]

Batuta said the warrior princess spoke Turkish. I think this account needs to be studied too. Why and how Turkish language reached Talawisi will help us understand the extent of ottoman influence in southeast asia.
Baganing, You may find interest in reading/researching some of the work done by Marija Gimbutas. Her Kurgan Theory may be interest to you as it originates, in part, from uses of language. She also deals with female warriors. A lot of her stuff seems to be backed up with current DNA studies. I suspect that uses of metals also saw their movement with her theory. The Bugis also have early documents that I can't find out much, they seem to be in private hands or Dutch museums.

[David]

Baganing, You may find interest in reading/researching some of the work done by Marija Gimbutas. Her Kurgan Theory may be interest to you as it originates, in part, from uses of language. She also deals with female warriors. A lot of her stuff seems to be backed up with current DNA studies. I suspect that uses of metals also saw their movement with her theory. The Bugis also have early documents that I can't find out much, they seem to be in private hands or Dutch museums.
Bill, have you talked to our Dutch friends about getting access to any of that material?

[baganing_balyan]

thanks for the suggestions and advices.

[Bill]

Bill, have you talked to our Dutch friends about getting access to any of that material?
No, I've not lost interest but also don't have the energy for the effort. It is interesting that Alan is in this tread as the Australians seem to have a strong interest in the Bugis culture. The claim is, the texts go back to about 1300 & deal primarily with genealogy but give good insight to the culture. Ian Caldwell refers to the different texts in his work. The Bugis by Christian Pelras (French) has a great book about the culture, refers to the texts & has quite a bit about metal working, even going into the legend of how metal smithing started on Sulawesi. I've bought some of the working papers from Monash University/Australia that refer to the texts. While I'm sure all the texts would be interesting, there likely is only dots & dashes about keris/kris & the folks that research these texts don't have that as their focus.

[baganing_balyan]

Bill, I checked and compared the photographs of early chain mail armors found in sulawesi, brunei, mindanao, and turkey. I can sense similarities among them. What really convinced me that the ottomans reached mindanao was that one armor with arabic/quranic inscriptions. Mindanao Moros were not known then to write something on their weapons and war materials unlike the ottomans. Besides, arabic was not widely spoken or written in Mindanao in the 14th century. In our language, we also have "turko" for turks but we don't have words for Mongols, Hans, and Mughals. I wonder how turko became a part of Filipino language and consciousness.

[Bill]

I fall into believing the "Deluge Theory" which Gimbutas hints at but others provide some evidence. How early & how far different groups traveled & had direct or even indirect influences may never be proved. The Vikings traded in Bagdad so we know there was some extreme early trading. Considering the length & size of the Ottoman Empire there likely was early direct influence but if not, surely indirect. But i'd think some forms of contacts before the Ottoman period between Turkey & "the Islands" likely but I certainly have no proof. DNA studies are likely to throw some wrenches into current history. Early Brunei was a trade center & could be a link. You might also look into the gold death masks found on Mindanao/Sulawesi & those found in Egypt & China. And if you don't mind, please find out who dug those ancient mines in Mindanao.

[A. G. Maisey]

Where would we be without Wikipedia?

[David]

Where would we be without Wikipedia?
:)

[baganing_balyan]

I fall into believing the "Deluge Theory" which Gimbutas hints at but others provide some evidence. How early & how far different groups traveled & had direct or even indirect influences may never be proved. The Vikings traded in Bagdad so we know there was some extreme early trading. Considering the length & size of the Ottoman Empire there likely was early direct influence but if not, surely indirect. But i'd think some forms of contacts before the Ottoman period between Turkey & "the Islands" likely but I certainly have no proof. DNA studies are likely to throw some wrenches into current history. Early Brunei was a trade center & could be a link. You might also look into the gold death masks found on Mindanao/Sulawesi & those found in Egypt & China. And if you don't mind, please find out who dug those ancient mines in Mindanao.

I think gold was mined and valued by early Filipinos specially in the Caraga region. Pigafetta wrote about early Filipinos with gold teeth. Interestingly, there are lumads (natives), mandaya in particular, who still keep the tradition until today. Old mandayas have one or two gold front teeth and the rest are black from lime and bettel nuts we call apog and mama.

[Nonoy Tan]

Baganing Balyan, if you have not seen the gold masks but would like to see them, then visit the Metropolitan Museum (along Roxas Blvd), or the University of Santo Tomas (UST) Museum. While you are at the UST, check out the library. You will find lots of references there on the Philippines' past. Afterall, UST is the country's oldest university. By the way, also check out the Central Bank Museum which is also along Roxas Blvd. You may find gold stuff there as well.

Your passion for research is inspiring. You may want to deepen that research by talking to local experts and professionals who spend their lifetime gaining such information (as there is much still much not written in the internet). Universities like UST, the University of the Philippines, the Ateneo de Manila University, Mindanao State University, Xavier University in Cagayan de Oro, etc, etc. have very informed professors, anthropologists, historians, who can help you. It would be great to hear the result of your further research. Good luck!!!

[Spunjer]

hi guys,

sorry, been on vacation :rolleyes:

Bill, I checked and compared the photographs of early chain mail armors found in sulawesi, brunei, mindanao, and turkey. I can sense similarities among them. What really convinced me that the ottomans reached mindanao was that one armor with arabic/quranic inscriptions. Mindanao Moros were not known then to write something on their weapons and war materials unlike the ottomans.

as a matter of fact, they do. magical symbols, jawi, Qur'anic verses and okir are every now and then can be found in Moro weapons.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/e26fe238-1.jpg



Besides, arabic was not widely spoken or written in Mindanao in the 14th century.

i'm not following the timeline here. if you're referring to the writings on the weapons, etc. during the 14th c. i'm sure a lot of us here would love to see a moro weapon from that era, writings or no writings.


In our language, we also have "turko" for turks but we don't have words for Mongols, Hans, and Mughals. I wonder how turko became a part of Filipino language and consciousness.

i'm sure it's the same way the word "Moro" (moors) got introduced.
Spain. :)

[David]

Hey Spunjer, nice to see you back from vaca. ;)
That kris looks familiar. Is it the one you got for Harold with the pommel repaired. If so it's nice to see it restored. :)
I think a lot of us would like to see a Moro weapon from the 14th century or be able to say with any amount of certainty just when the kris first appeared there. The earliest kris that Cato shows he dates to 18th century. It is, of course, possible that these "archaic" kris are a bit older. Maybe 16th century...a real stretch, i'd say, to place them any older.
I don't know how long the word "turko" has been in usage, but i think that your idea that it was introduced by the Spanish is a strong one. :)
Nice to have you back. :)

[Spunjer]

wassup david
yup. that's the same one from harold. matter of fact, i just saw him last month at the OGCA. still going strong, that guy
we've seen a few archaic examples, but yes, proving it was earlier would be hard, if not impossible, save for a sunken ship like the one they found in indonesia..

[baganing_balyan]

hi guys,

sorry, been on vacation :rolleyes:



as a matter of fact, they do. magical symbols, jawi, Qur'anic verses and okir are every now and then can be found in Moro weapons.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/e26fe238-1.jpg





i'm not following the timeline here. if you're referring to the writings on the weapons, etc. during the 14th c. i'm sure a lot of us here would love to see a moro weapon from that era, writings or no writings.




i'm sure it's the same way the word "Moro" (moors) got introduced.
Spain. :)

Find krises that are earlier than the one you showed. Sulu and Maguindanao muslims have their own dialects. Arabic was not widely-used and written then. Madrassas are recent development.

If the Spanish introduced "turko," don't you think they would have also introduced "vikingo" (viking) since the viking culture and history also reached spain like the Ottomans'? Unfortunately, we don't have vikingo in our language.

Filipinos have names for the people their forefathers encountered in ancient times. For chinese, we have tsino and intsik, Dutch, Olandes, africans, negro not africano.

[David]

Find krises that are earlier than the one you showed.
That is part of the problem. As i mentioned before, the earliest Moro kris that i have ever seen tend to date to the 18th century. It might be possible that these have been misdated and are closer to 17th century, but earlier than that is doubtful. The one that Spunjer shows here is most probably late 19th century. If anyone can show me a Moro kris from the 14th century i would sure like to see it. :)
There are many threads on this forum that show these so-called "archaic" kris and we have had quite a bit of discussion on them. There are also many Moro kris threads that deal with blades that have inscriptions, okir and/or magickal symbols on them. As Spunjer has pointed out, these inscriptions are sometimes written in Jawi. I would suggest that you try the search function and check some of these threads out. They will definitely help you with your research. :)
BTW, can you actually pinpoint when the word "turko" came into the language?

[Battara]

Great to have you back Spunger :D

You are right David - his kris is late 19thc (I did the silver bands :D ). A great piece!

[baganing_balyan]

That is part of the problem. As i mentioned before, the earliest Moro kris that i have ever seen tend to date to the 18th century. It might be possible that these have been misdated and are closer to 17th century, but earlier than that is doubtful. The one that Spunjer shows here is most probably late 19th century. If anyone can show me a Moro kris from the 14th century i would sure like to see it. :)
There are many threads on this forum that show these so-called "archaic" kris and we have had quite a bit of discussion on them. There are also many Moro kris threads that deal with blades that have inscriptions, okir and/or magickal symbols on them. As Spunjer has pointed out, these inscriptions are sometimes written in Jawi. I would suggest that you try the search function and check some of these threads out. They will definitely help you with your research. :)
BTW, can you actually pinpoint when the word "turko" came into the language?

I think the krises collected or photographed by the smithsonian institution in 1900's were actually older. Moros then and muslims now have a tradition of treating weapons as heirlooms.

Spunjer's kris is a suspect because of the ivory head of the handle-- that is if it's really an ivory. Philippines has no source of Ivory. There are lumads who still wear ivory bracelets but they don't know the source. Upon inspections, I believe it could be traced back to India. It could not be borneo because ivory bracelets are only common among the lumads in caraga and davao region. I haven't seen Muslim women in muslim mindanao wear old ivory bracelets.

It is hard to date folklore. As far as I know, my grandparents had been using the words turko, bombay, and negro even without meeting a turk, an indian, and an african. They are just part of our lexicon and consciousness. bombay has a proven history in the Philippines, so is the negro (slaves) during the spanish galleon trade, but the story about the turko is still not clear.

I have been researching about the origin of sulu, its meaning, and what language it came from. I could not find it in early Malay words, in Spanish, but i have found it in turkish language and it means "water." It perfectly suits to the geography of sulu, the philippine province.

Sanskrit also has sulu. it means "one who cuts well" and it is a term use in Indian classical dance, but Mandakranta Bose wrote in her book, Movement and Mimesis: The Idea of Dance in the Sanskritic, that the use of sulu only began in 16th century.

I believe Indian's sulu is an influence of the muslim's temple dance pangalay in sulu, the Philippine province, where krises are sometimes used-- hence, the meaning, "one who cuts well."

I still believe that sulu became a name of the place when the arab missionaries reached the island bringing Islam and the Ottomans were with them. The spread of Islam that time was synonymous to the expansion of the ottoman empire.

[Battara]

I would disagree with you on Spunger's kris - I had it in hand and the pommel is elephant ivory with grain structure indicative of elephant ivory. Also, ivory from India and Sumatra was traded in the reaching, including reaching the Philippines,China, and Japan.

[baganing_balyan]

I would disagree with you on Spunger's kris - I had it in hand and the pommel is elephant ivory with grain structure indicative of elephant ivory. Also, ivory from India and Sumatra was traded in the reaching, including reaching the Philippines,China, and Japan.

the use of ivory in mindanaoan weaponry is recent not ancient-- probably when the Europeans occupied Borneo in late 1800's.

Smithsonian photographs do not even show krises with ivory handles.

I also have a copy of thirteenth century text written by a chinese trader involved in ivory trading not with the people of sulu but with the lumads (natives) of palawan.

[fearn]

Hi Baganing,

This is a more general comment, rather than a specific response. I happen to work in the sciences, and there's this idea that some have called "scientific sexiness." It's when you fall head over heels in love with this wonderful idea, and then go out chasing it and trying to prove it's true. The problem with great ideas is that not all of them turn out to be so great once you get to know them. Yes, there are parallels between science and dating.

In any case, what separates the good scientists from the bad ones isn't the sexiness of their ideas, it's that their sexy ideas stand up to cold, hard, often brutal scrutiny, primarily because they're testable, and withstand all attempts to refute them with the best evidence available.

While I agree that you have to be a strong advocate for your ideas (and they are interesting), if you want to do truly good scholarship, you also need to find ways to test your ideas. If your ideas cannot be tested in a way that would disprove them, then they really aren't great.

That's okay. I've got a closetful of sexy ideas. Most researchers do. My favorite unfulfilled sexy idea is waiting for someone discover 70 million year old fossil roots of a proto-oak from Burma--if such roots exist. Once someone finds those roots, I can write a paper that will change everyone's ideas about how plants evolved. But only if I'm right about what how those roots are constructed, and only if they exist. There may or may not be parallels between this story and trying to find a 600 year old kris to support your ideas.

My 0.00002 cents. Back to lurking. Interesting thread!

F

[Spunjer]

Smithsonian photographs do not even show krises with ivory handles.

do you have a copy of this smithsonian photographs you're talking about?


If the Spanish introduced "turko," don't you think they would have also introduced "vikingo" (viking) since the viking culture and history also reached spain like the Ottomans'? Unfortunately, we don't have vikingo in our language.


huh? how did you connect vikings and turks? i wish you could explain this further as this is very interesting.


I think the krises collected or photographed by the smithsonian institution in 1900's were actually older.

i'm interested in finding out why you think these krises were older. surely there are tell tale signs, no?

[Nonoy Tan]

Baganing Balyan, I forgot to mention the Summer Insitute of Linguistics located in Quezon City, Philippines. You will find lots of information there as well.

Nonoy

[baganing_balyan]

do you have a copy of this smithsonian photographs you're talking about?





huh? how did you connect vikings and turks? i wish you could explain this further as this is very interesting.




i'm interested in finding out why you think these krises were older. surely there are tell tale signs, no?

I meant to say photographs of old krises. Ivory handles are mostly 19th century. in archaeology, the more intricate a tool looks, the more recent it is.

You said the spanish introduced the "turko" to the philippines. Granting they did since Spain was not spared by the ottomans, they would have also introduced "vikingo" since vikings also invaded/raded spain. Why would they be selective about their history, if indeed they introduced the image or the word turko to the filipinos?

anyway, I checked and compared the Y-Chromosome haplogroups of sumatra, borneo, and philippines. They all share the same haplogroups C,O,D, and K, but the only difference is that philippines has haplogroup R1B. Guess what... Turkey has R1b.

I am not sure though if the haplogroup i thought to be R1B is right (the color is just too tiny and vague. Maybe it is RxR1. If it is the case, still there is a turkish connection, turkey has K (western asia or eurasia haplogroup) too, and that would mean, there are also turkish genes in sumatra and borneo like philippines.

I need to go back home and ask my tausug friends for DNA testing. I have always believed that their ancestry can be traced back to turkey since I got a turkish boyfriend years ago who just looked like my tausug cousin. hehehehe

y-chromosome haplogroups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Y-Haplogroups-1500AD-World-Map.GIF)

[Spunjer]

so, what's your definition of old? as you said of my kris:

Spunjer's kris is a suspect because of the ivory head of the handle-- that is if it's really an ivory.

ok, so to you it's a suspect at first because ivory was used but after being refuted you decided to change your tune and back your statement up with:

the use of ivory in mindanaoan weaponry is recent not ancient-- probably when the Europeans occupied Borneo in late 1800's.

and this:


I meant to say photographs of old krises. Ivory handles are mostly 19th century

so are you saying that late 1800 krises as recent? so again, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old? again, are there tell tale signs that these were "old"? we would like to know this new methodology of aging these weapons.

turko. vikingo.
lol, that's funny-o.

[baganing_balyan]

so, what's your definition of old? as you said of my kris:



ok, so to you it's a suspect at first because ivory was used but after being refuted you decided to change your tune and back your statement up with:



and this:




so are you saying that late 1800 krises as recent? so again, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old? again, are there tell tale signs that these were "old"? we would like to know this new methodology of aging these weapons.

turko. vikingo.
lol, that's funny-o.

correction: I did not change my tone. I said it's 19th century, and if you want me to put a ball park, it's mid 19th century upto mid 20th century. I did not change.

I just told you in archaelogy, the development of tools is from simple to complex. The more intricate it looks, the more recent it is.

if you are an antiquarian or antique collector, 1800 artifact is ancient. For anthropologists or historians ancient means centuries ago.

Stop nitpicking. It was you who said turko was introduced by the spanish, and I refuted that idea since vikingo does not exist in our Lexicon. Bombay exists. It's because early Filipinos did meet early Indians, and there were indians living in cainta, rizal as early as mid 1700.

As I studied Philippine languages, it seems that we don't have early names for foreigners our forefathers had not met. Vikingo is a case in point. Yes, I checked the DNA chart, Filipinos do not have any viking genes.

By the way, I think the r1b I thought is actually rxr1 coming from the australian aborigines and cameroon, africa. It is explainable. We have negroid natives in the philippines such as aetas.

Now why would Philippines sumatra, and borneo have a eurasian haplogroup? I think that's where the turkish ottomans enter the scene.

[Spunjer]

correction: I did not change my tone. I said it's 19th century, and if you want me to put a ball park, it's mid 19th century upto mid 20th century. I did not change.

I just told you in archaelogy, the development of tools is from simple to complex. The more intricate it looks, the more recent it is.


really?

here's a Kris Espada dated 1899

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/cbc7cbcb.jpg

now, here's a Kalis Seko from the early 1800's

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/542cff46-1.jpg

and a museum piece i was fortunate enough to study, a Kris Luma from late 1700's/early 1800's

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/57400f0c-1.jpg

which is similar to one of our member's piece (VVV), and btw, with an Ivory pommel

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5834&highlight=archaic+moro+kris

seems to be that the older pieces are more intricate than the newer one in this case. care to explain? again, you haven't answered my question on how do you know the alleged smithsonian pictures were old by your definition?

turko is spanish. spanish conquered philippines. how hard is that?

[Bill]

anyway, I checked and compared the Y-Chromosome haplogroups of sumatra, borneo, and philippines. They all share the same haplogroups C,O,D, and K, but the only difference is that philippines has haplogroup R1B. Guess what... Turkey has R1b.

I am not sure though if the haplogroup i thought to be R1B is right (the color is just too tiny and vague. Maybe it is RxR1. If it is the case, still there is a turkish connection, turkey has K (western asia or eurasia haplogroup) too, and that would mean, there are also turkish genes in sumatra and borneo like philippines.

I need to go back home and ask my tausug friends for DNA testing. I have always believed that their ancestry can be traced back to turkey since I got a turkish boyfriend years ago who just looked like my tausug cousin. hehehehe

y-chromosome haplogroups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Y-Haplogroups-1500AD-World-Map.GIF)
I think we are still a few years away from having DNA tell us a good story but it's coming. It certain to challenge current history. Societies need to provide food & protection. When those things are met in a time efficient manner, constant progress can be made to make tasks even more efficient & evolve into more inventions. Certainly the use of metals (tools/weapons), composite bow, agriculture & animal husbandry would provide a unequal match from a society with and one without. Throw in natural disasters, volcanoes, tsunamis, earthquakes and fires; you have a maddening mix of influences that formed mans history. A great read (although I don't agree totally) is "Guns, Germs and Steel, the fate of Human Societies by Jared Diamond. His detail into influences/inter actions & their impact is must read for those interested in this type of things. History is written by the "winners" & certainly National Pride, Religion & Idealogy come into play.
My wife is a Cebuano & speaks the dialect. I gave her Pigafetta's list of words, he recorded in Cebu & she found a fairly small % that she recognized. & I am sure you are knowledgeable of the different meanings of the same word in the different Philippine dialects. But if you hear someone, in their dialect, say "air con" or "computer" you don't have to understand their dialect to know what the word means or from where it is derived.

[baganing_balyan]

really?

here's a Kris Espada dated 1899

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/cbc7cbcb.jpg

now, here's a Kalis Seko from the early 1800's

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/542cff46-1.jpg

and a museum piece i was fortunate enough to study, a Kris Luma from late 1700's/early 1800's

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/57400f0c-1.jpg

which is similar to one of our member's piece (VVV), and btw, with an Ivory pommel

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5834&highlight=archaic+moro+kris

seems to be that the older pieces are more intricate than the newer one in this case. care to explain? again, you haven't answered my question on how do you know the alleged smithsonian pictures were old by your definition?

turko is spanish. spanish conquered philippines. how hard is that?

On the issue of turko, it seems you are not getting my point. I grew up hearing turko used to scare us when we were kids so was bombay. I did not even know then how they looked like. I had not met them. We lived in a province in mindanao. Since I heard that word, I started asking where they learned about turko and bombay. They said from their ancestors. There you go. The spanish definitely did not introduce bombay for Indian and I believe turks reached mindanao, hence the turko in the consciousness of the Filipinos and in the language.

If I have to carbon-date krises these are the ones I am interested to work on in particular order.


kris 1 (http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=3046)

kris 2 (http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=693)

kris 3 (http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=2854)

kris 4 (http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=3091)

You said dated? What did you mean by that? Carbon-dated? Any dates etched or carved? If there are, are they Islamic or Christian dating? When you said dated, is it the date they were collected, put in the museum, sold, found or what? If you want to make sure of dates, you better use a technology.

Now, in the absence of real recorded dates and scientific methods of dating, the rule in archeology regarding early tools, stone, wooden, and metal, applies-- from simple to complex. There are archaeological materials you can read online regarding the evolution of tools.

In archaeological dating, in the absence of carbon-dating and physical indication of real dates-- historical accounts and artifacts are also used in association. For example: chinese ivory trade in prespanish and during the early spanish colonization was rampant among the native of palawan and other lumad areas. Hence, you cannot see an entire kris handle made of ivory.

then in 19th century, europeans monopolized the ivory trade in the area of java, sumatra, and sulu. That's the reason too why javan elephants disappeared. I am still collecting data about sulu elephants and the role of a sulu sultan in (unknowingly) preserving extinct javan elephants that are said to be still existing in Borneo. Hence, the 19th century ivory "cockatoo" handle heads.

They are not really cockatoos but images of sarimanok (mythical bird). Ottoman art has such bird motif. I believe it was the ottomans and arab missionaries who brought the Islamic image to sulu.

There are just many things to consider. Next time you see a dated kris in a museum, ask the curator if it was the date the kris was collected or made. Most of the time, when tools are not carbon-dated, they won't put dates they were made but collected.

[David]

Baganing, you are going to find it really difficult to find anyone who is willing to allow carbon dating on a kris since it involves destroying a small part of the object to do it. Carbon dating sheaths and hilts is pointless as these are commonly changed over years. While we do not have this scientific method to date these weapons we do have many clues that allow us to put the different styles and characteristics that we see into catagories of different eras based in part on blades of provenence. The kris that you link to on Artzi's site are all fairly accurately dated. Kris #1 shows all the characteristics of a mid to late 19th century kris. Kris #2 is a bit older, maybe around 1800 to mid 19th century. Kris #3 is in the "archaic" style and could be late 18th century. Keris #4 again appears to be of the 19th century variety. You might want to get a hold of Robert Cato's book Moro Sword for a better understanding of the clues that help us designate the approximate age on these blades.
"I just told you in archaelogy, the development of tools is from simple to complex. The more intricate it looks, the more recent it is."
As Spunjer has pointed out this is obviously an inaccurate statement based on both his examples and the ones you have shown. To take it a step further, examine some of the post WWII blades which get even more simplistic in their design.
As for Spunjer's kris, i have also handled it and can assure you that it is indeed real ivory. You will also see numerous "archaic" style kris that are at least from the 1700s with ivory pommels so i am sorry to say that your research is just plain wrong here as well. Ivory pommels have been used on some of the oldest known Moro kris. There was much early trade for materials like ivory in the Philippines and ivory can also be found locally from marine sources. Older kakatu pommels on kris tend to be rather diminutive compared to later styles so the very large piece of ivory that you get from elephants might not be necessary for these smaller pommels.
Lastly, you can question why the word "vikingo" did not find it's way into to language, but i am afraid that it "proves" nothing. Perhaps it just wasn't pertinent enough. The Vikings made it to Spain, but i don't believe that they spent a lot of time pillaging there and they never had a conquering empire like the Ottomans. They also predate the Ottomans by a few centuries. The Turks, however, may have lingered in the Spanish memory and imagination for a longer period of time. :shrug:

[Battara]

the development of tools is from simple to complex. The more intricate it looks, the more recent it is.
I beg to differ - although this is true to a certain degree within the life of a people or civilization, even over the life span of a human population there can be changes in complexity from one time period to the next.

Example: look at the Indus Valley civilization - very complex with complex artifacts in the 2nd millenium BC, but compare this to the 1st millenuim it looks like the appex of civilization. The same can also be said of the region of the Middle East around what is now Palestine over several periods where different peoples changed the level of complexity of artifacts (ie. after the arrival of the "Sea Peoples" or the arrival of Amorite tribes into the region).

Thus a period of complexity in design or artifacts can be followed by a period of lower complexity (ie. the European "Dark Ages" after the fall of the Western Roman Empire). These kris may be older than you think and the use of ivory goes back millenia.

[baganing_balyan]

there are just too many levels to consider in dating mindanaoan kris.

First, the people of mindanao is not homogenous in language, art, weaponry. social development, etc.

so, the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula.

It is possible that the samals were just starting to use simple Krises while maranaos known for their artistry already used the intricate ones or maybe the tausugs known for their warfare skills did not really care for the design of their krises but their functions and usability.

Muslims in Mindanao are not a homogenous group. The social and technological development in each community also varries.

So I cannot really say that the simple kris of samal made in 19th century and the intricate kris of maranao of 18th century disprove the validity of the simple-to-complex principle in archaeology.

If we date krises according to communities, we will see that pattern-from simple to intricate.

That's the problem with earlier krises, they were all known as moros.

[Spunjer]

you still haven't answered my question, which is, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old?

Baganing balyan-I think the krises collected or photographed by the smithsonian institution in 1900's were actually older.

was it carbon-dated? Any dates etched or carved? If there are, are they Islamic or christian dating? does it show the date they were collected, put in the museum, sold, found or what?


regarding ivory, yesterday you said:

Spunjer's kris is a suspect because of the ivory head of the handle-- that is if it's really an ivory. Philippines has no source of Ivory. There are lumads who still wear ivory bracelets but they don't know the source. Upon inspections, I believe it could be traced back to India

and then you came with this revelation:

For example: chinese ivory trade in prespanish and during the early spanish colonization was rampant among the native of palawan and other lumad areas.

and this:
then in 19th century, europeans monopolized the ivory trade in the area of java, sumatra, and sulu. That's the reason too why javan elephants disappeared.
i thought you said philippines has no source of ivory???


so which is it? or are you making this up as you go along?


Hence, you cannot see an entire kris handle made of ivory.

pictures?

well, got to go...

[David]

Baganing, what i think you might find studying, let's say, just Sulu kris is that the dress (hilt forms and decoration) might get more complex as time progresses. We certainly see larger kakatus for instance. However, the blades themselves undoubtably get more simplistic over time. If you can show us otherwise with examples i would be both surprised and interested. :shrug:

[Spunjer]

wha-? wait a minute..


That's the problem with earlier krises, they were all known as moros.

kris matidto
kris espada
kalis tulid
kris luma
kris ranti
kalis taluseko
kris lanti
kris seko
kalis seko

and that's just from cato's book...

really gotta go now..

[David]

wha-? wait a minute..




kris matidto
kris espada
kalis tulid
kris luma
kris ranti
kalis taluseko
kris lanti
kris seko
kalis seko

and that's just from cato's book...

really gotta go now..
Ron, i don't think she's read Cato's book. :shrug:

[baganing_balyan]

wha-? wait a minute..




kris matidto
kris espada
kalis tulid
kris luma
kris ranti
kalis taluseko
kris lanti
kris seko
kalis seko

and that's just from cato's book...

really gotta go now..

Have you checked if those kris/kalis terms traditionaly exist in Mindanao?

Kris luma? Do you know what luma means? kris espada? Is that traditionally mindanaoan?

Kris tulid? is it tul-id?

mmmmmmmm can you check if those names of kalises and krises again existed or still exist in mindanao?

They sound recent concoction to me.

[David]

I'm not sure if it matters to you, but Spunjer is, like yourself, also a Filipino living in the USA. :shrug:

[baganing_balyan]

you still haven't answered my question, which is, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old?



was it carbon-dated? Any dates etched or carved? If there are, are they Islamic or christian dating? does it show the date they were collected, put in the museum, sold, found or what?


regarding ivory, yesterday you said:


and then you came with this revelation:


and this:

i thought you said philippines has no source of ivory???


so which is it? or are you making this up as you go along?




pictures?

well, got to go...

mmmmmm I thought when I mentioned sulu elephants, you would research or know about it. They were from java transported to Sulu. The account is still vague, and I am still collecting data.

regarding the dating of kalises:

I am interested to make a survey of weaponry from written and oral sources taking into account the community that made and used them.

I am interested to study the krises of tausugs separate from the maguindanaoans, maranaos, and samals.

If we study them like that, we can truly find out how the krises developed, differed, and looked among the muslim communities in Mindanao.

mixing all krises to make a one linear comparison does not make sense.

In studying and dating krises, we have to consider the artistry of maranaos, the metal works of the maguindanaos, the pearl and ornaments of samals, and the turkish influences among the tausugs.

Can you tell me if Cato did that? Did he present an ethnography of each muslim group so he can understand for instance the resources available in each community, the geography, the kind of art the people do, and the symbolisms they use.

in dance for instance, Pangalay of sulu is different compared to the pangalays of maguindanao, maranao, and samal. That's just for the dance, how much more for complex issues?

[baganing_balyan]

I'm not sure if it matters to you, but Spunjer is, like yourself, also a Filipino living in the USA. :shrug:


Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words.

[David]

Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words.
Well, i think you would have to ask him that yourself. :rolleyes:
As for Cato, you should also do that for yourself as well. To date it is probably the best, if not only, book don't specifically on the subject. I am sure it is not perfect, but you would still find much to learn in it. :)

[Bill]

imo, rule #1 in dating a Kris is, you will always find exceptions.
#2 older Kris are less then 20 inches & have tapered blade tips for stabbing where the older ones evolve to a slashing weapon. In general the older fall into that 16-19" range.
Spunger posted some nice examples. The one from VVV is the oldest, interesting the quality control of craftsmanship on these. The Seko Kris either is an exception to rule #2 or in-fact may enforce it; evolving from stabbing to slashing.

[David]

Kris luma? Do you know what luma means?
Since you ask, AFAIK "luma" is a term from Maguindanao that refers to a kris which is half wavy and half straight.
Here is an example that i now own (previously owned by Battara and Spunjer) on a website put up by another of you fellow countrymen. If you navigate around this site i think you might also find quite a bit of useful information. :)
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/_uimages/Maguindanaocollage.html

[baganing_balyan]

mmmmm cato is one of his references.

Like that maguinadanaon kris should be dated in relation to the same krises known for their simple handles like that-- almost the same angular, clean design like t'boli swords sans bells. One does not have to wonder, geographically, tboli's and maguindanaos are neighbors.

[Battara]

David, I did not know that you have that now. I loved that piece.....

[baganing_balyan]

imo, rule #1 in dating a Kris is, you will always find exceptions.
#2 older Kris are less then 20 inches & have tapered blade tips for stabbing where the older ones evolve to a slashing weapon. In general the older fall into that 16-19" range.
Spunger posted some nice examples. The one from VVV is the oldest, interesting the quality control of craftsmanship on these. The Seko Kris either is an exception to rule #2 or in-fact may enforce it; evolving from stabbing to slashing.

Not necessarily. Krises used as regalia specially by maranaos, known for their elegance and courtly appearance, tend to have shorter krises.

Yakan's krises tend to have etched designs using lines and dots.

Samals' uses pearls and other embellishments such as precious shells.

Kalagans' have simple wooden handles and they usually adorn their krises with hairs, vines, etc.

Maguindanaos' have distinct handle design, so are the tausugs.

I just think that Minadanaoan krises should be surveyed by groups. Mixing and dating them is like mixing and dating weapons of different Indian tribes in America.

I don't also believe that Krises have traditional specific names. I don't know why Filipino weaponry researchers have coined names to call filipinio swords. If an english speaking maranao datu says his kris is a regalia kris, I don't think he means the name of his kris is "regalia."

There are muslims in Davao for instance who showed me "tul-id nga kris." that doen't mean that the name of that kris is tul-id. Tul-id means straight. They only mean that they have straight krises.

Naming Filipino weaponry specially among collectors and dealers is really problematic. I still see people saying itak sword or daga knife. That's just overkill.

[David]

Not necessarily. Krises used as regalia specially by maranaos, known for their elegance and courtly appearance, tend to have shorter krises.
I find it humorous that you answer Bill's post "not necessarily" since he clearly uses language like "you will always find exceptions", "in general" and "exception to the rule". Seems he is already saying "not necessarily" out of the gate. :)
Can you show us an example of these shorter Maranaos regalia kris? It should be noted that regalia by nature is generally passed down through many generation and while dress might be changed and updated these shorter swords you have "seen" might very well be much older kris there by fall right in step with the general point Bill was indeed making.
Yakan's krises tend to have etched designs using lines and dots.

Samals' uses pearls and other embellishments such as precious shells.

Kalagans' have simple wooden handles and they usually adorn their krises with hairs, vines, etc.

Maguindanaos' have distinct handle design, so are the tausugs.
I think that if you would spend the time to do a little research with the search function on this forum you might discover that this is not necessarily new information to this group of collectors. I will add, however, that both the Maguindanaos and the Tausugs had more than just one hilt design. Also it is very common to find cross-over kris that might have the blade form one group with the handle from another, either because the blade was captured, gifted or traded. Classification of these kris becomes even more difficult.
I just think that Minadanaoan krises should be surveyed by groups. Mixing and dating them is like mixing and dating weapons of different Indian tribes in America.
I don't think anybody here is disagreeing with this. :shrug:

I don't also believe that Krises have traditional specific names. I don't know why Filipino weaponry researchers have coined names to call filipinio swords. If an english speaking maranao datu says his kris is a regalia kris, I don't think he means the name of his kris is "regalia."

There are muslims in Davao for instance who showed me "tul-id nga kris." that doen't mean that the name of that kris is tul-id. Tul-id means straight. They only mean that they have straight krises.

Naming Filipino weaponry specially among collectors and dealers is really problematic. I still see people saying itak sword or daga knife. That's just overkill.
As for traditional names for kris, i don't know how specific the naming of kris got in the Philippines. In Indonesia regalia keris were all given personal names like Durga Dingkul, Si Tanda Langlang and Bangawan Canggu. These are names like you calling yourself Baganing Balyan.
But these other names we are using are merely descriptive names that determine both the profile (dhapur in Indonesia) of the blade and the origin, since these descriptive terms are specific to certain group's dialects. To say "Kalis Tulid" then not only descibes the kris as a straight blade, but also as one coming from the Tausug people. It is not the same at all as saying "daga knife" which is just redundant. It is a way of classifying a kris so that we as collectors get an immediate understanding of what shape and from what area the kris comes.
Perhaps you didn't find your way to this page on Federico's site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/weaponsmain.html
Or this one where he describes the different parts of the kris in 3 major dialects. :)
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/diagram.html
BTW, you seem suspicious that Cato is one of Federico's references. I find it difficult to understand how anyone who has spent as much time as you obviously have studying the kris would not have come across Cato's book before. As i pointed out before, it might be flawed in places, but it is to my knowledge the only book published (at least in English) on the subject, so you probably would have found it quoted numerous times in your research. You might also note that Federico also uses many other references in his research for his site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/bibliography.html

[Spunjer]

Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words.

i'm ilonggo, and grew up in partly in Dadiangas (gensan) a couple years in Marbel, and some families in Bo. obrero, davao. but that shouldn't matter, or should it?


so, the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula.

can you tell me your source for this? and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris?

[baganing_balyan]

I find it humorous that you answer Bill's post "not necessarily" since he clearly uses language like "you will always find exceptions", "in general" and "exception to the rule". Seems he is already saying "not necessarily" out of the gate. :)
Can you show us an example of these shorter Maranaos regalia kris? It should be noted that regalia by nature is generally passed down through many generation and while dress might be changed and updated these shorter swords you have "seen" might very well be much older kris there by fall right in step with the general point Bill was indeed making.

I think that if you would spend the time to do a little research with the search function on this forum you might discover that this is not necessarily new information to this group of collectors. I will add, however, that both the Maguindanaos and the Tausugs had more than just one hilt design. Also it is very common to find cross-over kris that might have the blade form one group with the handle from another, either because the blade was captured, gifted or traded. Classification of these kris becomes even more difficult.

I don't think anybody here is disagreeing with this. :shrug:


As for traditional names for kris, i don't know how specific the naming of kris got in the Philippines. In Indonesia regalia keris were all given personal names like Durga Dingkul, Si Tanda Langlang and Bangawan Canggu. These are names like you calling yourself Baganing Balyan.
But these other names we are using are merely descriptive names that determine both the profile (dhapur in Indonesia) of the blade and the origin, since these descriptive terms are specific to certain group's dialects. To say "Kalis Tulid" then not only descibes the kris as a straight blade, but also as one coming from the Tausug people. It is not the same at all as saying "daga knife" which is just redundant. It is a way of classifying a kris so that we as collectors get an immediate understanding of what shape and from what area the kris comes.
Perhaps you didn't find your way to this page on Federico's site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/weaponsmain.html
Or this one where he describes the different parts of the kris in 3 major dialects. :)
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/diagram.html
BTW, you seem suspicious that Cato is one of Federico's references. I find it difficult to understand how anyone who has spent as much time as you obviously have studying the kris would not have come across Cato's book before. As i pointed out before, it might be flawed in places, but it is to my knowledge the only book published (at least in English) on the subject, so you probably would have found it quoted numerous times in your research. You might also note that Federico also uses many other references in his research for his site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/bibliography.html

check this maranao blogger with a maranao shorter regalia kris on his side and on the wall. Maranao krises are very artsy and metallic. He has the same short krises I saw in Marawi city. I assume he is maranao because he was born in Davao. Muslims in Davao are mostly Maranao. There are samals but they live by the sea on stilt homes.

On surveying by groups. You said everyone knows that it should be that way, but there are still people like spunjer, who thinks krises found in sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula are all the same. Even their clothing and manner of dressing are not homogenous.

maranao kris (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://jamalashley.blogsome.com/images/sultansuluT.jpg&imgrefurl=http://jamalashley.blogsome.com/2006/04/&h=463&w=244&sz=36&hl=en&start=56&um=1&tbnid=k3IJh7EtTrlkYM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=67&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaranao%2Bsultan%26start%3D40%26ndsp% 3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1B3DVFA_enUS230US2 37%26sa%3DN)

[Spunjer]

On surveying by groups. You said everyone knows that it should be that way, but there are still people like spunjer, who thinks krises found in sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula are all the same. Even their clothing and manner of dressing are not homogenous.



look, if you're trying to bring me down to your level, it ain't working. show me where i mentioned that those krises (sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula) are the same, otherwise, quit making up stuff because the more you post, the more you're showing your ignorance in the subject matter. again, as i've inquired earlier, i'm interested, and most likely some of the collectors here, in knowing how to differentiate the difference between a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris.
so, the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula

[baganing_balyan]

You asked this very obvious question:

"can you tell me your source for this? and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris?"

Ignorance about kris? ha? are you blind? read my post well.

I'm even into genetic evidences already and you accused me of ignorance? mmmmm... let the readers judge.

I don't even know if you have met yakans, kalagans, and samals. yes, they are muslims too. I won't wonder because you are ilonggo gid.

[Spunjer]

I don't even know if you have met yakans, kalagans, and samals. yes, they are muslims too. I won't wonder because you are ilonggo gid.

ok, like i said, i won't go down to your level, but a word of advice, let's not get into insulting one's heritage here. it's not doing your position any good and really, it just shows your ignorance even more to a world wide audience.

but please, let's stick to the topic at hand:

can you tell me your source for the statement you made in which you said: the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula

and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris?

also, please back up your accusations about me stating that "thinks krises found in sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula are all the same".

otherwise, you're just exposing your (lack of) knowledge and as i've mentioned earlier, ignorance in the subject matter.
yes, i've read your posts, and it's not making a lick of sense. really.

[David]

check this maranao blogger with a maranao shorter regalia kris on his side and on the wall. Maranao krises are very artsy and metallic. He has the same short krises I saw in Marawi city. I assume he is maranao because he was born in Davao. Muslims in Davao are mostly Maranao. There are samals but they live by the sea on stilt homes.
Actually, i believe that what is by his side and also on the wall are larger 20th century punals or gunongs. This is pretty clear from the hilt and sheath style. I think you need to learn how to distinguish your Moro weaponry better. :rolleyes:
There is one over sized keris (especially on the dress side) on that wall. Over-sized, very showy dress is common for these ritual regalia kris.
Can you tell me, have you read any of the reference books on Federico's list? :shrug:

[baganing_balyan]

I did years of fieldwork in mindanao. I won't spoon-feed you with data. if you
check I only share tidbits. wait for my book.

Not making any sense? I can't blame you. you are used to unfounded, baseless conventions.

down to my level? mmmm I don't know you are up there?

Time to ignore you. Do your own research. Don't be bookish. I even ask my tausug friends to take genetic testing because I want to go deeper not just superficial stuff.

Don't blame me for your ignorance. I am just sharing what I have been doing not the full study or result, so people serious in researching mindanaoan weaponry will also conduct parallel research. There is nothing wrong in sharing seminal ideas, but for someone to nitpick because they stick to false conventions, then that is wrong.

spend time in muslim mindanao first, then you will be enlightened. I did. You won't know much about muslim weaponry in Marbel or Mlang.

[RhysMichael]

I don't know it it will help anyone with their research but Project Gutenburg has all 55 volumes of "The Philippine Islands, 1493-1803". Its described as detailing Explorations by Early Navigators, Descriptions of the Islands and Their Peoples, Their History and Records of the Catholic Missions, as Related in Contemporaneous Books and Manuscripts, Showing the Political, Economic, Commercial and Religious Conditions of Those Islands from Their Earliest Relations with European Nations to the Beginning of the Nineteenth Century I don't know if any of these will have descriptions of the kris you are discussing here or not. And as with most records written by explorers you have to interpret them in light of the time and bias of the people

[baganing_balyan]

Actually, i believe that what is by his side and also on the wall are larger 20th century punals or gungongs. This is pretty clear from the hilt and sheath style. I think you need to learn how to distinguish your Moro weaponry better. :rolleyes:
There is one over sized keris (especially on the dress side) on that wall. Over-sized, very showy dress is common for these ritual regalia kris.
Can you tell me, have you read any of the reference books on Federico's list? :shrug:


as i said, maranao kris used as a regalia is shorter, so length should not be used in dating.

I saw maranao krises like that in Marawi. There are still smiths today in lanao who make short krises with that kind of handle.

[David]

C'mon Baganing, you don't seem to know the difference between a punal and a kris. How can i possibly take any of your research seriously. :rolleyes:

[David]

as i said, maranao kris used as a regalia is shorter, so length should not be used in dating.

I saw maranao krises like that in Marawi.
In other words, these "shorter" kris you are citing are not actually kris.

[baganing_balyan]

In other words, these "shorter" kris you are citing are not actually kris.

please do a research first what a punal or punyal is-- not from the book but from the people using it if there are.

[baganing_balyan]

that's what i have been saying all along-- the naming the mindanao weapons is extremely problematic. Some are coined to make them sound exotic.

[David]

please do a research first what a punal or punyal is-- not from the book but from the people using it if there are.
Sorry, Baganing, i have done my research. The photo you link to showing what you claim to be kris are not kris at all. I don't care if you believe me. You credibility is shot as far as i am concerned. You don't seem to truly have a grasp at Moro weaponry, you are merely grasping at straws. Good luck with that. :rolleyes:

[baganing_balyan]

are you telling me that the guy in yellow attire was holding a knife on his side? estimate the length of his kris using his fist. is that a knife?

can you tell me what is punal or punyal?

[David]

Well Baganing, look at the hilt form. Look at the sheath form. These are both common forms for punal and gunong. We can't see the blades in these pictures. Modern punals have gotten to be quite long in some cases. We see them for sale on eBay all the time. I have personally held quite a few of these modern longer punals in my hands on many occasion. I can not see the blades in these pictures, but i can almost guarantee that these blades do not have an asymetric blade like the kris, nor a gangya (insert spelling of your choice). These are not kris. Period. Learn your Moro weapons and we can discuss this later. :)

[baganing_balyan]

that's what i have been telling you.. hilts, handle heads, and sheaths vary among muslim groups. I even saw samal krises with shells on their sheaths and pearls on the handles and kalagans' with vines and animal hairs.

Talk to a maranao, maybe you won't question his credibility. e-bay is not really a good source for research. I would have used the images there a long time ago.

[baganing_balyan]

since you are an expert, can you tell me what punal or punyal is? while you are at it, tell me also its etymology.

I can. can you?

[David]

that's what i have been telling you.. hilts, handle heads, and sheaths vary among muslim groups. I even saw samal krises with shells on their sheaths and pearls on the handles and kalagans' with vines and animal hairs.

Talk to a maranao, maybe you won't question his credibility. e-bay is not really a good source for research. I would have used the images there a long time ago.
I am not saying at all that eBay is a good source for research and you know it. What i am saying is that you don't know a kris from a punal and your credibility is shot. Period.
Of course, hilts and sheath vary, but the hilts and sheaths in the picture you linked to clearly shows that these are not kris. I am sorry that you don't fully understand what a kris is, but these are a different type of blade that doesn't have the gangya (separate or otherwise) that is necessary to distinguish the blade as a kris. Some call these punals. Some call them gugongs. But they are not kris.

[David]

Here is just one thread which showcases these large punals:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5467&highlight=punal
The word is Spanish. The etymology is not really important in this case, though i am so glad to hear that you know it. :rolleyes:

[baganing_balyan]

I am not into bragging about my background. I challenge you to find a maranao and find out the truth yourself.

now tell me what is punal or punyal. Have you measured that guy's sword using his fist? is that a knife to you? How many fists can you make along the knife?
You can use fist because he was holding his sword. four or five fists? is that the length of punal? punal means knife. It's not a name of a blade.

[baganing_balyan]

at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

[RhysMichael]

at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

Ok I have been trying to follow this. But I have to ask. Don't both Moro and Christians in the Philippines both have spanish and portuguese words in their vocabulary ? I admit my experience is limited.

[baganing_balyan]

by the way, since you are into my credibility. I got in this forum because your use of "ethnographic weapons" intrigued me.

do you know what ethnographic means?

do you know that you can conduct an ethnographic research in Brooklyn, Georgia, or Paris?

ethnographic does not mean traditional. If you don't like my presence here because I am into sharing what i know to change false conventions, then you can ban me.

Again, I challenge you to even email that person in yellow muslim attire in his blog and ask if what he had on his waist was a knife.

[David]

Please Baganing, i know what a punal is and i know that they are meant to be knife length. Truly antique punals will undoubtable always be a knife length. In the 20th century however, punals got larger and larger, mostly for tourist consumption. The punals in the photo you linked to are all modern pieces. These types are also shown in the link i just posted. I really don't need to find a Maranao to confirm this for me. :rolleyes:
All true kris and keris have an asymmetric blade, with a section at the base known as the gangya (the spelling i usually see applied to Moro Kris) or gonjo (Indonesian). It is clear from the sheath style in the picture you linked to that these blades do not have this asymmetrical feature. Therefore they are not kris, but instead long punals or gugongs if you prefer,
No, you are not bragging about your background. In fact, i know very little about it and have no reason to take your word on anything based on what i know about you. :)

[baganing_balyan]

Ok I have been trying to follow this. But I have to ask. Don't both Moro and Christians in the Philippines both have spanish and portuguese words in their vocabulary ? I admit my experience is limited.

punal from punyal entered the maranao lexicon through chavacano (filipinized spanish) in zamboanga. it is a word for a knife not a maranao traditional name for a blade. Tagalogs use punyal too to mean a knife not as a name for a specific knife.

[baganing_balyan]

Please Baganing, i know what a punal is and i know that they are meant to be knife length. Truly antique punals will undoubtable always be a knife length. In the 20th century however, punals got larger and larger, mostly for tourist consumption. The punals in the photo you linked to are all modern pieces. These types are also shown in the link i just posted. I really don't need to find a Maranao to confirm this for me. :rolleyes:
All true kris and keris have an asymmetric blade, with a section at the base known as the gangya (the spelling i usually see applied to Moro Kris) or gonjo (Indonesian). It is clear from the sheath style in the picture you linked to that these blades do not have this asymmetrical feature. Therefore they are not kris, but instead long punals or gugongs if you prefer,
No, you are not bragging about your background. In fact, i know very little about it and have no reason to take your word on anything based on what i know about you. :)

punal or punyal is a word for a knife period. if it's not a knife-length, they have a word for it. calling a sword a knife is just illogical. Maranaos are not that dumb. They are good in language and literature, and yes in logic too.

[RhysMichael]

punal from punyal entered the maranao lexicon through chavacano (filipinized spanish) in zamboanga. it is a word for a knife not a maranao traditional name for a blade. Tagalogs use punyal too to mean a knife not as a name for a specific knife.

I know what punal/puyal means. I said my experience was limited but I am a student of Pananandata. The blade, sheath and handle form in every book I have seen ( From Stone to Cato) for Punal matches what David says. That is not to say there may not be other names for it in other dialects. I have stuggled with that on Aceh weapons, with all the ethnic groups lliving there the same weapon may be called a dozen different things depending on who you ask. Its the same weapon. I have seen a balisong the length of my arm. While not a traditional balisong it was still one.

And as I said above I have been led to believe that even "anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims" have both spanish and portuguese words they commonly use.

[David]

punal or punyal is a word for a knife period. if it's not a knife-length, they have a word for it. calling a sword a knife is just illogical. Maranaos are not that dumb. They are good in language and literature, and yes in logic too.
Please do not turn this into a racial argument because i will not stand for that. No one here has made any comment disparaging any part of Moro culture. If you do not want to call these longer knives/short swords punal, that is fine with me. Pick your name. As i stated, some call them gugongs. What they are truly not, however, are kris, which i will once more, for the truly dense among us, repeat, must have an asymmetrical blade and some sort of gonjo (separate or intrinsic) to qualify. If you do not know what a kris is, please don't bother me with you questions about what a punal is. :rolleyes:

[baganing_balyan]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://jamalashley.blogsome.com/images/sultansuluT.jpg&imgrefurl=http://jamalashley.blogsome.com/2006/04/&h=463&w=244&sz=36&hl=en&start=56&um=1&tbnid=k3IJh7EtTrlkYM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=67&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaranao%2Bsultan%26start%3D40%26ndsp% 3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1B3DVFA_enUS230US2 37%26sa%3DN



can someone tell me if this guy is holding a knife? his kris proves that not all krises in mindanao are the same. I have even seen a kris that has no snaky blade, and the handle is tube-like without design and the katik is not elaborate.

[RhysMichael]

Perhaps as with the large balisong( that was made for a window display) the larger punal developed more as a display piece than a use piece. Even if that is not the case I have also seen "Bowie Knives" nearly that large. So again what is one mans big knife may be anothers short sword.

[David]

ethnographic does not mean traditional. If you don't like my presence here because I am into sharing what i know to change false conventions, then you can ban me.
I know what ethnographic means my dear, believe me.
I know that you have been banned from quite a few other forums in your day, but having alternative ideas isn't part of our criteria for doing so. I am actually quite enjoying your presence here. That doesn't mean i have to agree with you. In the end your credibity will be established or not. Guess which i'm betting on. ;) :D

[David]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://jamalashley.blogsome.com/images/sultansuluT.jpg&imgrefurl=http://jamalashley.blogsome.com/2006/04/&h=463&w=244&sz=36&hl=en&start=56&um=1&tbnid=k3IJh7EtTrlkYM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=67&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmaranao%2Bsultan%26start%3D40%26ndsp% 3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1B3DVFA_enUS230US2 37%26sa%3DN



can someone tell me if this guy is holding a knife? his kris proves that not all krises in mindanao are the same. I have even seen a kris that has no snaky blade, and the handle is tube-like without design and the katik is not elaborate.
No need to link to the same site again. We can all see what the guy in yellow is holding. A serpentine blade is not a requirement for a kris BTW. No one is saying that. Though i would be willing to bet that the blade in that guy's sheath is in fact wavy. But let me say this again...and please, let it sink in. If it doesn't have an asymmetrical blade with a gonjo feature (separate or otherwise), it...is NOT...a kris. Clearly the width of the sheath on the blades you link to do NOT provide enough space for this feature. Therefore, these are NOT kris. What about this don't you understand? :shrug:

[RhysMichael]

An example of a large confederate D guard "bowie knife" as an example of what I was speaking of. Big knife or small sword all depends on who you ask.

[baganing_balyan]

here's another example why not all krises are the same.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7668/p2181356st2.jpg

[David]

here's another example why not all krises are the same.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7668/p2181356st2.jpg
Sorry, no gonjo, no asymmetric blade...that is not a kris in my book. What's more, it has a punal style guard on it. Now it is possible that that blade was cut down from what was once a kris, but i would not consider it a kris in it's present form.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

[baganing_balyan]

Sorry, no gonjo, no asymmetric blade...that is not a kris in my book. What's more, it has a punal style guard on it. Now it is possible that that blade was cut down from what was once a kris, but i would not consider it a kris in it's present form.

hahahahahaha. that's not a kris? find a yakan or a samal, he will open your eyes.

that's the reason why i took anthropology-- foreigners come to my country and use their preconception to validate our culture. Even tagalogs and visayans are guilty of that.

well, that's a mindanaoan kris, and that's according to people who use it. theya re the ones who should define their culture not the researchers.

[A. G. Maisey]

Time alters perspective.

[baganing_balyan]

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

that's very patronizing. I did my research in the first place because too many misconceptions and misinterpretations about our culture.

That's why I want to involve science in my research so nobody can accuse me of making up stuff. you cannot make up genealogy and genetics.

There are just too many stuff to change. I hope i can do that in my lifetime. I am not saying that I haven't learned from you. I even said that mine is just a seminal idea that will hopefully interest serious researchers to look into.

I keep on hearing the word "moro" attached to mindanaoan weapons. I think that's the reason why people thinks all moros or groups of muslims have the same weapons with the same looks, function, and length.

that's not the case.

[David]

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.
True enough Alan, true enough.
It does seem, however, that since Ms. Baganing is not willing to accept the combined knowledge of this forum, and since most of us here are having some problem with her theories and ideas, that perhaps she is wasting her great wealth of knowledge on us, the unwashed and uneducated collectors, and perhaps she might do better to move on to some other more academic forum where her ideas will be better received. In the meantime, i also eagerly await the publishing of her book. I am sure it will be the talk of the community once it is finally published.
:)

[David]

I keep on hearing the word "moro" attached to mindanaoan weapons. I think that's the reason why people thinks all moros or groups of muslims have the same weapons with the same looks, function, and length.
that's not the case.
Just one more question. Have you taken the time yet to use the search function on this site for words like "Kris", "Moro", "Mindanao", "Punal", "Kalis", "Sundang", etc, etc, etc to find out what this group of people might collectively think about these subjects or are you justr running on you preconceived ideas of what people in general think based on your esxperience in martial arts and other forums and life in general?
You really have no idea what we think, do you?

[baganing_balyan]

the problem with kris researchers is that they don't conduct ethnography.

Some of them even think moro is a single group of people. I am not even sure if they have a 19th century map of moro province. That's important so they would know moros have no homogenous culture, social development, resources, language, etc. Geography dictates culture.

I don't intend to preach in front of a choir. I don't even intend of preachign at all. I am into sharing ideas-- theoretical or not-- so those who cling to conventions will have a moment to rethink. Rethinking is a good thing. If one or two do that hear, then my effort is not in vain, and I would not be alone.

I just can't shut up and accept that there is a sundang sword or itak sword or daga knife in the philippines. I cannot also play ignorant by not saying what i wanna say-- as long as i have bases, i am fine.

Others claim they are experts of sulu weapons, yet they don't even know where the name sulu comes from and the geography of the place. To study weapons or etnoarcheology, such facts are important to trace the sources and resources important in reconstructing the origins of artifacts.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, at various times during our lives we possess certainty at varying levels.For example, I was certain about much more at the age of 25 than I was at 35 or 45 or 55. Now I am in my late sixties I find that I know much, much less about many things than I knew with certainty at 25.

But the peculiar thing is this:- other people, mostly people who are prepared to pay me for my opinion, seem to think that the value of my opinion has increased as time as has passed, and are prepared to pay accordingly.

Who am I to argue?

I am certain that as with many things, the marketplace will determine the value of all our knowledge.

[baganing_balyan]

David, the fact that you just dismissed that mindanaoan kris, which is typical among samal and yakan muslims tells me a lot about your thought process and misconceptions. You can stick to them, but in a sound cultural study, it's the people you studied should define their culture. they are the ones who know what are krises and what are not. Well, krises are their cultural artifacts.

If you dismissed that kris out of insufficient knowledge, that's not wrong at all, but if you did it because you really believed you were right, then I cannot accept that. As a mindanaoan, it is my duty to straighten out misconceptions and misinterpretations about my culture.

[David]

I just can't shut up and accept that there is a sundang sword or itak sword or daga knife in the philippines. I cannot also play ignorant by not saying what i wanna say-- as long as i have bases, i am fine.

Others claim they are experts of sulu weapons, yet they don't even know where the name sulu comes from and the geography of the place. To study weapons or etnoarcheology, such facts are important to trace the sources and resources important in reconstructing the origins of artifacts.
What forum are we discussing here? Not a single person here has made these claims or comments. You brought this up all by yourself.
Also no one here has made any claims to being an "expert" either, though you seem to have accuse me of it more than once. I certainly am no expert. Neither are you. We are all students here, you included.
I also seriously doubt that there is a single person here who does not full understand that the study of ethnographic weapons fully requires an immersing into the culture of origin of said weapon.
Don't want to preach to the choir? Then don't. Take a breath and a little bit of time to understand the community that you are presenting your views and ideas to and stop pre-judging us and assuming what it is that we do or do not know. Have you followed up on any of the places of research i and others have recommended to you (forum search engine,website links, books)? Or do you wish to continue based on your own preconceived ideas?
:shrug:

[David]

David, the fact that you just dismissed that mindanaoan kris, which is typical among samal and yakan muslims tells me a lot about your thought process and misconceptions. You can stick to them, but in a sound cultural study, it's the people you studied should define their culture. they are the ones who know what are krises and what are not. Well, krises are their cultural artifacts.

If you dismissed that kris out of insufficient knowledge, that's not wrong at all, but if you did it because you really believed you were right, then I cannot accept that. As a mindanaoan, it is my duty to straighten out misconceptions and misinterpretations about my culture.
I am not dismissing the weapon you have most recently posted. It is, infact, from what i can see of it, a very nice blade. It just isn't a kris. If you wish to call it a kris that is your perogative. It does not have all the features that define a kris. If you think you are going to "straighten me out", i've got news for you.. :rolleyes:

[baganing_balyan]

I am not dismissing the weapon you have most recently posted. It is, infact, from what i can see of it, a very nice blade. It just isn't a kris. If you wish to call it a kris that is your perogative. It does not have all the features that define a kris. If you think you are going to "straighten me out", i've got news for you.. :rolleyes:

I have a news for you too. I don't intend to straighten out people. I am more interested of letting my alternative ideas out so people have the chance to rethink and choose what to believe. if theya re openminded, they might straighten out themselves and respect other people's culture.

since you are an expert, what is kris to you? Do you know that the definition of kris goes beyond its looks, length, and material? Now tell me what makes a kris a kris?

[baganing_balyan]

What forum are we discussing here? Not a single person here has made these claims or comments. You brought this up all by yourself.
Also no one here has made any claims to being an "expert" either, though you seem to have accuse me of it more than once. I certainly am no expert. Neither are you. We are all students here, you included.
I also seriously doubt that there is a single person here who does not full understand that the study of ethnographic weapons fully requires an immersing into the culture of origin of said weapon.
Don't want to preach to the choir? Then don't. Take a breath and a little bit of time to understand the community that you are presenting your views and ideas to and stop pre-judging us and assuming what it is that we do or do not know. Have you followed up on any of the places of research i and others have recommended to you (forum search engine,website links, books)? Or do you wish to continue based on your own preconceived ideas?
:shrug:


all the links you posted have problematic historiography. you call your weapons ethnographic yet i read no ethnography. i wish i could tell you guys not to use problematic sources. If you want to know the real thing, conduct a fieldwork or use someone's work that is a result of a sound fieldwork. images on e-bay is not really a good place to start.

[Battara]

As an educator who has also done field research using phenominology, anthropology, sociology, psychology, and history of world religions background (not including my theology and psychiatric backgrounds), I have learned that the more I learn, the more I realize I need to learn. I try to instill this in my students. The best teacher is the greatest student. For me this also means having a humility toward those who I meet. I may know things, but since I am finite, this means that even what I have learned from my field informants and those with whom I live needs improvement constantly. Even Muhammad (peace be upon him) had a humility to embrace others and learn from them. To completely dismiss the knowledge even of misguided writers of the turn of the century is foolish at best.

I am saddened by your attitude and anger. You have some good points, but so do the others. If I ever thought I was the sole repository of all the knowledge of even my own ancestors, I would be cutting myself off from more learning and even God and what God could do through me.

To come back with comments that are heated are indicative of some other things that are not in the realm of this forum. It appears like there is a need to be heard, but not a need to hear.

When it comes to PI and Moro knowledge I need to learn an aweful lot (this is also true of American Indian and Celtic things), but at the same time. However I remain silent because of being dismissed out of hand. By the way, I am Filipino, Scots-Irish, and Cherokee American Indian. Do I know all about these influences and peoples - no. Only God does, and compared to God, I am dumber than a brick.

Alan, unfortunately you have a very good point.

[kai]

Hello Miya,

that's very patronizing.
I agree that the tone of some posts could be a tad more constructive but that includes some of your own ones, too. Let's try to discuss ideas/facts rather than the participants and their knowledge, please.


I did my research in the first place because too many misconceptions and misinterpretations about our culture.
Didn't you said you were Mandaya rather than Moro? I'm certain there are misconceptions just about any ethnic group, culture, etc. though. That does include any of the participants' backgrounds. ;)


I keep on hearing the word "moro" attached to mindanaoan weapons.
Granted, Moro is a catch-all term (as is Mindanaoan) but somtimes its use seems suitable. The name Moro kris seems to make sense to me (there's also a Malay kris - aka keris sundang - and also possibly a variant which may be called Lumad kris.

Of course, the term Moro kris doesn't imply that all examples follow a single style and that there aren't any local/ethnic variations. The same would obviously be true when using the term Mindanaoan weapons since the (indigenous) ethnic groups on Mindanao are arguably even more diverse than those who are referred to as Moro!

BTW, when you use the term Mindanaoan kris you also seem to include Tausug kris, don't you? If yes, I'm not sure I understand such a usage...

I think that's the reason why people thinks all moros or groups of muslims have the same weapons with the same looks, function, and length.
Well, I think that older discussions on this forum prove that forumites interested in blades from that region do care about differences between, say, Tausug and Maranao (both the peoples and their cultures). That doesn't mean that there aren't any mistakes, etc. However, you'll find people that people will happily accept new information when it's convincingly presented.

Showing pics of blades and discuss interesting details will result in a more focused discussion than generalized theories IME.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

since you are an expert, what is kris to you? Do you know that the definition of kris goes beyond its looks, length, and material? Now tell me what makes a kris a kris?
LOL! :D
I am beginning to think that perhaps you have a reading disability. Please re-read post #117 where i clearly state that i am certainly not an expert. :rolleyes: I have already describes part of what is required to consider a blade a kris....numerous times. But maybe you missed that somehow. Perhaps you were just unable to understand that as well, but you do seem to otherwise be a person of at least average intelligence. So instead of playing games with us why don't you tell us what your definition of a kris is?

[A. G. Maisey]

David and Ms Baganing, I am not going to buy into this most scholarly of debates, however, I will make just one comment.

The photo that Ms Baganing has posted of a waved blade is most certainly not a keris by any of the definitions used by people---including anthropologists--- who are expert in this field.

However, it could well be referred to as a "kris" by some people in the community which Ms Baganing has surveyed.

Whether or not all people in this community would name it as a keris has not been established.

Whether or not such an implement has always been known in the surveyed community as a "kris" has not been established.

But Ms Barganing's informants could well refer to it as a kris.

My housekeeper in Solo, when shown a photo of a Bowie knife and told that it was an American style of knife for personal protection dubbed it a "keris amerika".

Different people in different places and at different times, can see things differently.

Let Ms Baganing's informants call this thing a kris. Let Ms Bagaing believe that it is one. I'm sure that like myself, as her research increases in volume she will come to be less and less certain that what she is currently so certain of, is really so.

[baganing_balyan]

Hello Miya,


I agree that the tone of some posts could be a tad more constructive but that includes some of your own ones, too. Let's try to discuss ideas/facts rather than the participants and their knowledge, please.



Didn't you said you were Mandaya rather than Moro? I'm certain there are misconceptions just about any ethnic group, culture, etc. though. That does include any of the participants' backgrounds. ;)



Granted, Moro is a catch-all term (as is Mindanaoan) but somtimes its use seems suitable. The name Moro kris seems to make sense to me (there's also a Malay kris - aka keris sundang - and also possibly a variant which may be called Lumad kris.

Of course, the term Moro kris doesn't imply that all examples follow a single style and that there aren't any local/ethnic variations. The same would obviously be true when using the term Mindanaoan weapons since the (indigenous) ethnic groups on Mindanao are arguably even more diverse than those who are referred to as Moro!

BTW, when you use the term Mindanaoan kris you also seem to include Tausug kris, don't you? If yes, I'm not sure I understand such a usage...


Well, I think that older discussions on this forum prove that forumites interested in blades from that region do care about differences between, say, Tausug and Maranao (both the peoples and their cultures). That doesn't mean that there aren't any mistakes, etc. However, you'll find people that people will happily accept new information when it's convincingly presented.

Showing pics of blades and discuss interesting details will result in a more focused discussion than generalized theories IME.

Regards,
Kai

Yes, I am a lumad and mindanaoan. I started researching mindanao weapons since I was in college, ten years ago, after getting hold of a moro province map that included 90 percent of mindanao. There were even lumad areas classified as moro then.

all krises in mindanao are mindanaoan krises for geographical reason, but not all mindanaoan krises are the same.

the only homogenous in the issue of mindanaoan kris is the way they define what a kris is-- their definition is beyond the physicality and materiality of the sword.

Even people of Borneo were called moros too in 1900's. Saying Moro Kris is not really appropriate, and it's not a definite term.

[Battara]

An interestingly good point, Alan. And this is true across the region that includes the Philippines, Indonesia, and Malaysia. This has been one of the sticking points of many debates on this forum in the past. And then the terms even change meaning as time progresses and language evolves. Parang in Bahasa Indonesian I think means in many cases a short sword where as in Tagalog it is a field. Yet they are etimologically related (what do you use to cut through a field?).

[David]

all the links you posted have problematic historiography. you call your weapons ethnographic yet i read no ethnography. i wish i could tell you guys not to use problematic sources. If you want to know the real thing, conduct a fieldwork or use someone's work that is a result of a sound fieldwork. images on e-bay is not really a good place to start.
Sorry, you need to show me how ALL the links i posted have problematic historiography and why. Just saying this is meaningless and doesn't make it so. And no one here uses eBay to do their research. When i mentioned eBay before it was merely to point out that the longer punals that your friend in yellow is showing are a relatively new form that one can often find for sale on eBay. Please don't twist my words against me. Everyone knows my intention in even mentioning eBay, and it certainly wasn't to suggest that it was in any way a legitimate source for research.

[David]

The photo that Ms Baganing has posted of a waved blade is most certainly not a keris by any of the definitions used by people---including anthropologists--- who are expert in this field.

However, it could well be referred to as a "kris" by some people in the community which Ms Baganing has surveyed.
Alan, i am certainly will to accept this possibility. :)

[baganing_balyan]

LOL! :D
I am beginning to think that perhaps you have a reading disability. Please re-read post #117 where i clearly state that i am certainly not an expert. :rolleyes: I have already describes part of what is required to consider a blade a kris....numerous times. But maybe you missed that somehow. Perhaps you were just unable to understand that as well, but you do seem to otherwise be a person of at least average intelligence. So instead of playing games with us why don't you tell us what your definition of a kris is?

this is what you wrote on 107. I assume this is your definition of kris.

"Sorry, no gonjo, no asymmetric blade...that is not a kris in my book. What's more, it has a punal style guard on it. Now it is possible that that blade was cut down from what was once a kris, but i would not consider it a kris in it's present form."

are you sure early krises had gonjo, asymmetric blades, and other specifications according to your liking?

even the image of kris on a temple relief in java does not look like the kris you think should be.

there are even people in mindanao who call any sword with snaky blades as kris.

to most people, kris is kris because of its function and uses. It is not just a sword that you can classify according to its physical appearance.

[A. G. Maisey]

Battara, those who have known me for a long time will attest to my dislike, or perhaps hatred, of the "name game".

The names of similar things can change from village to village, even within villages from community to community.

Over time similar items will have different names, and even be put to different uses.

The same thing used in a different way, or with a different nature, or an owner of different rank or position can have a different name.

People of different knowledge levels within the same community can refer to the same same thing by a different name.

People of one level within a community can refer to the same item, used or worn or owned by people of differing levels, by differing names.

What do you use to cut through a field?

What village are you in, when, what is the rank of the person cutting through the filed, and who is going to describe the action of cutting through the field?

[A. G. Maisey]

Goodness gracious me!

Against my will I have been drawn into this.

Ms Baganing, I am most ignorant of the area of your speciality, but I am quite familiar with monumental works in Jawa, most especially those showing depictions of the keris.

To the best of my knowledge, every keris shown in Jawanese monumental works does indeed look like a keris.

Will you please advise me of the name of the temple in Jawa that has a depiction of a keris that does not look like a keris?

Further, just to demonstrate my purely objective approach to this matter of what is and is not a keris, may I remind all that there are some Javanese keris which do indeed not run true to the usually accepted classic definition of a keris.However, in all cases the naming is substantiated by inclusion in a royally authorised reference.

[kai]

Hello Miya,

after getting hold of a moro province map that included 90 percent of mindanao. There were even lumad areas classified as moro then.
Do you think this was intentional, ignorance, or missing information?

Shit happens - so what?


all krises in mindanao are mindanaoan krises for geographical reason, but not all mindanaoan krises are the same.
Agreed.

All kris from Moro ethnic groups are Moro kris for ethnical reason, but not all Moro kris are the same. Agreed?

To me and my limited knowledge, a definition based on ethnic groups with a common cultural background (including religion) does make more sense than a geographical definition when the geographical region is known to be culturally more diverse than the Moro ethnic groups. I'm open to discuss this and change my mind though.


the only homogenous in the issue of mindanaoan kris is the way they define what a kris is-- their definition is beyond the physicality and materiality of the sword.
Are you sure all ethnic groups on Mindanao have the same definition what constitutes a kris? So, what's this definition?


Even people of Borneo were called moros too in 1900's. Saying Moro Kris is not really appropriate
Why? Coastal areas of northern Borneo were part of the Sulu sultanate for quite a long time and there are still Tausug being citizens of Sabah today.

Regards,
Kai

[baganing_balyan]

Goodness gracious me!

Against my will I have been drawn into this.

Ms Baganing, I am most ignorant of the area of your speciality, but I am quite familiar with monumental works in Jawa, most especially those showing depictions of the keris.

To the best of my knowledge, every keris shown in Jawanese monumental works does indeed look like a keris.

Will you please advise me of the name of the temple in Jawa that has a depiction of a keris that does not look like a keris?

Further, just to demonstrate my purely objective approach to this matter of what is and is not a keris, may I remind all that there are some Javanese keris which do indeed not run true to the usually accepted classic definition of a keris.However, in all cases the naming is substantiated by inclusion in a royally authorised reference.


you can use the one found in prambanan temple. I can't even see any katik. definitely the blade is straight. I am not sure about the handle-- the stone is broken.

[baganing_balyan]

Hello Miya,


Do you think this was intentional, ignorance, or missing information?

Shit happens - so what?



Agreed.

All kris from Moro ethnic groups are Moro kris for ethnical reason, but not all Moro kris are the same. Agreed?

To me and my limited knowledge, a definition based on ethnic groups with a common cultural background (including religion) does make more sense than a geographical definition when the geographical region is known to be culturally more diverse than the Moro ethnic groups. I'm open to discuss this and change my mind though.



Are you sure all ethnic groups on Mindanao have the same definition what constitutes a kris? So, what's this definition?



Why? Coastal areas of northern Borneo were part of the Sulu sultanate for quite a long time and there are still Tausug being citizens of Sabah today.

Regards,
Kai

let's not go into the issue on sabah. People of sulawesi were also called moros.

in the philippines, borneo was not part of the moro province in 1900, yet the people there were called moros.

[David]

are you sure early krises had gonjo, asymmetric blades, and other specifications according to your liking?
even the image of kris on a temple relief in java does not look like the kris you think should be.
there are even people in mindanao who call any sword with snaky blades as kris.
to most people, kris is kris because of its function and uses. It is not just a sword that you can classify according to its physical appearance.
Asymetric, certainly. Did they all have gonjo? Not always a separate gonjo. Whether the very earliest of keris buda had a separate gonjo or just an indication of one is unclear to me.
But we are not really discussing these very early Jawa keris. We discussing kris that developed centuries later in the Philippines. I am sure that the earliest of these sword length kris did in fact have both a gonjo (almost always separate up until the early 20th century) and were in fact always asymmetrical. This is not according to my "liking". It is just the way it is.
I believe you when you say that there are people in Mindanao today who will call any snaky blade a kris. There are also people in the USA who will call any cream filled sponge cake a twinky.
You say a kris is a kris because of it's function. What is that function? How does it differ from the function of a barong or kamplian?

[David]

you can use the one found in prambanan temple. I can't even see any katik. definitely the blade is straight. I am not sure about the handle-- the stone is broken.
Please define "katik". It is not a term used to describe any part of the Malay keris. As for straight blades, the first keris were all straight blades. As a rule in Indonesia 2 out of 3 keris tend to be straight. The handle form does not determine whether it is a keris...the blade does. What does this prove or disprove? :shrug:

[baganing_balyan]

Asymetric, certainly. Did they all have gonjo? Not always a separate gonjo. Whether the very earliest of keris buda had a separate gonjo or just an indication of one is unclear to me.
But we are not really discussing these very early Jawa keris. We discussing kris that developed centuries later in the Philippines. I am sure that the earliest of these sword length kris did in fact have both a gonjo (almost always separate up until the early 20th century) and were in fact always asymmetrical. This is not according to my "liking". It is just the way it is.
I believe you when you say that there are people in Mindanao today who will call any snaky blade a kris. There are also people in the USA who will call any cream filled sponge cake a twinky.
You say a kris is a kris because of it's function. What is that function? How does it differ from the function of a barong or kamplian?

I know we talked about krises in Mindanao, but i showed you some reasons why krises in mindanao vary in designs, materials, symbolism, etc.

you have to take into account the geography, resources, community development, etc of each muslim group.

Samals for instance who are known as sea people incorporate cultural geography in their weaponry-- they use shells and pearls as ornaments on handles and sheaths.

The krises of the kalagans are primitive compared to the ones found in lanao, sulu, and maguindanao. Why is it the case?

kalagans were originally lumads before they became muslims. krises are recent in their culture, hence, the simplicity of their krises compared to the well-established and developed ones.

[baganing_balyan]

Please define "katik". It is not a term used to describe any part of the Malay keris. As for straight blades, the first keris were all straight blades. As a rule in Indonesia 2 out of 3 keris tend to be straight. The handle form does not determine whether it is a keris...the blade does. What does this prove or disprove? :shrug:

check federico's parts of the kris. katik is the perpendicular, irregular metal separating the handle form the blade.

every dialect has a word for it-- in english, it means barrier.

[David]

A kris is a kris. It is unique to the world of edged weapons because of the way it is designed. There are many other blades in the world, some curvy, some not. Someone, somewhere might recognize some of these blades (especially the wavy ones) as kris in our modern times. I do not.
Your post is pretty much a repetition of things you have already stated. You did not answer my questions, but that seems to be a part of you own unique style. ;)

[kai]

Hello Miya,

People of sulawesi were also called moros.
By Spanish explorers/colonialists? Sure - as just about any darker-skinned or possibly just sun-tanned ethnic group of Muslim faith worldwide. Some other western colonial powers may also have picked up the term and used it.

That doesn't preclude that during later days the term may have been applied more selectively and finally also embraced by the very ethnic groups to which the name got first applied by ignorant foreigners.

That's like Christians embracing and using a name for themselves and their religion which originally got coined by enemies and used in a pejorative manner at best...


in the philippines, borneo was not part of the moro province in 1900, yet the people there were called moros.
Well, not all peoples of the US Moro province were Moro either. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be any legitimate Moro outside any political entity called "Moroland" or whatever: There are Malay outside Malaysia, etc.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

check federico's parts of the kris. katik is the perpendicular, irregular metal separating the handle form the blade.

every dialect has a word for it-- in english, it means barrier.
So then this is the Tausug word for gonjo? :shrug: :)
I saw this diagram on Federico's site. You might remember that i directed you to it. But the line from the word "katik" actually stops on the blade itself, not the "barrier", so i was confused as to exactly what part he meant to attatch it to.

[baganing_balyan]

Please define "katik". It is not a term used to describe any part of the Malay keris. As for straight blades, the first keris were all straight blades. As a rule in Indonesia 2 out of 3 keris tend to be straight. The handle form does not determine whether it is a keris...the blade does. What does this prove or disprove? :shrug:

david, you should know how the traditional users of kerises or krises view their weapons. I just don't think that even that simple stuff, I have to elaborate.

[baganing_balyan]

So then this is the Tausug word for gonjo? :shrug: :)
I saw this diagram on Federico's site. You might remember that i directed you to it. But the line from the word "katik" actually stops on the blade itself, not the "barrier", so i was confused as to exactly what part he meant to attatch it to.

mmmmm I already saw that before you even saw me here.

I used katik because i am talkign about mindanaon kris. some muslims in davao call it sangga or panangga-- meaning, barrier.

[David]

mmmmm I already saw that before you even saw me here.

I used katik because i am talkign about mindanaon kris. some muslims in davao call it sangga or panangga-- meaning, barrier.
Sure Baganing, if you say so. Funny that you didn't mention having been to this site when i directed you there 2 pages ago, but i am sure that you have your reasons.
Also funny that when i asked what katik meant you didn't just say it was the Tausug word for gonjo...unless you actually didn't understand what i meant all this time using the word gonjo. But that is just too weird to consider really, isn't it. :)
Anyway, thanks for adding sangga and panangga to the vocabulary list as well.

[baganing_balyan]

Sure Baganing, if you say so. Funny that you didn't mention having been to this site when i directed you there 2 pages ago, but i am sure that you have your reasons.
Also funny that when i asked what katik meant you didn't just say it was the Tausug word for gonjo...unless you actually didn't understand what i meant all this time using the word gonjo. But that is just too weird to consider really, isn't it. :)
Anyway, thanks for adding sangga and panangga to the vocabulary list as well.

you really think i have a shallow understanding of the subject I am interested in?

I have even been trying to find the etymology of gonjo for years now. do you know something about it?

it's not my style to use something i don't understand.

[David]

you really think i have a shallow understanding of the subject I am interested in?

I have even been trying to find the etymology of gonjo for years now. do you know something about it?

it's not my style to use something i don't understand.
What i am saying is that if you knew that katik was basically the same as gonjo why not just say so. :shrug:
Gonjo is a Javanese word. You need to look there. Mr. Maisey could probably tell you more about it that i. :)

[baganing_balyan]

Sure Baganing, if you say so. Funny that you didn't mention having been to this site when i directed you there 2 pages ago, but i am sure that you have your reasons.
Also funny that when i asked what katik meant you didn't just say it was the Tausug word for gonjo...unless you actually didn't understand what i meant all this time using the word gonjo. But that is just too weird to consider really, isn't it. :)
Anyway, thanks for adding sangga and panangga to the vocabulary list as well.

if you read one of my blog posts on kris, I used katik and I even described it.

[Alam Shah]

Dear Baganing,
What's the title of the book that you'll be publishing? :)
Interesting ideas you have... (I've read all 5 pages). Good luck in you quest.
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic group? Would you like to share more details, please?

[baganing_balyan]

What i am saying is that if you knew that katik was basically the same as gonjo why not just say so. :shrug:
Gonjo is a Javanese word. You need to look there. Mr. Maisey could probably tell you more about it that i. :)

javanese words usually have malay or sanskrit/tamil/hindi etymology. I can't find the etymology of gonjo.

I don't even know if gonjo and katik are the same. if gonjo is a continuous part of the blade then it's not the same as katik.

[David]

if you read one of my blog posts on kris, I used katik and I even described it.
Yep, i read them, but i must have missed it the first time through. I came across it on the second viewing after googling "katik" and being brought back to the article, but by then you had already answered the question. Of course you have left so many more of my direct questions to you unanswered. I am not sure why this is. If you don't have an answer for these questions you can just say so. :shrug:

[David]

javanese words usually have malay or sanskrit/tamil/hindi etymology. I can't find the etymology of gonjo.

I don't even know if gonjo and katik are the same. if gonjo is a continuous part of the blade then it's not the same as katik.
The gonjo is generally a separate piece situated between the blade and hilt. A relatively few number of keris are "gonjo iras" where the gonjo and blade are one piece, often with a line marking where a separation would be. Most Moro (for lack a a better descriptor) kris made after 1930 also are all one piece continuous from the blade and there is just an inscribed line to mark where the separation should be. Please don't tell me this is not the case.

[baganing_balyan]

Dear Baganing,
What's the title of the book that you'll be publishing? :)
Interesting ideas you have... (I've read all 5 pages). Good luck in you quest.
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic group? Would you like to share more details, please?

Su: The Edge of Water

For the DNA, I am lucky that i don't have to do it. A university back home is doing their human genome project on all ethnic groups. I'll just wait for their data. Turkey has already profiled the genetic make up of the turkish people.

I am primarily interested of the Tausugs because they were the first to be Islamized by the Arab missionaries in late 1300's.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ah---Prambanan.

Yes, on the inside of the balcony wall of Candi Shiva there are a number of representations of keris-like weapons.

In Panel #4 there is depictation of Rama and Laksmana killing giants. The representation of a a keris-like weapon in this panel is in many respects similar to what we now know as a "Keris Buda", the carving of this dagger shows an asymetric base, a definite gonjo, and other features that we expect to find in a keris. It is a fore-runner of the modern keris.

Now, there are representations of other keris-like weapons at the Prambanan complex also. Some are very keris-like, others are less so, only the one I have mentioned is a clear representation of a form that can be positively identified as a fore-runner of the keris.If this one dagger were to be presented stripped of handle, it would be identified in modern times as a "Keris Buda".

If we consider the salient features found in a Keris Buda blade, all of those features can be found in the modern keris.

Ms Baganing, I have actually spent a very great amount of time at the Prambanan complex, mostly in study of these particular carvings. You appear to be speaking of some representation of a keris-like dagger that is other than the Rama & Laksmana one.

Please Ms Baganing, can you provide a reference to an image so that I may know exactly which representation you are using as your point of reference?

[baganing_balyan]

double post

[baganing_balyan]

Ah---Prambanan.

Yes, on the inside of the balcony wall of Candi Shiva there are a number of representations of keris-like weapons.

In Panel #4 there is depictation of Rama and Laksmana killing giants. The representation of a a keris-like weapon in this panel is in many respects similar to what we now know as a "Keris Buda", the carving of this dagger shows an asymetric base, a definite gonjo, and other features that we expect to find in a keris. It is a fore-runner of the modern keris.

Now, there are representations of other keris-like weapons at the Prambanan complex also. Some are very keris-like, others are less so, only the one I have mentioned is a clear representation of a form that can be positively identified as a fore-runner of the keris.If this one dagger were to be presented stripped of handle, it would be identified in modern times as a "Keris Buda".

If we consider the salient features found in a Keris Buda blade, all of those features can be found in the modern keris.

Ms Baganing, I have actually spent a very great amount of time at the Prambanan complex, mostly in study of these particular carvings. You appear to be speaking of some representation of a keris-like dagger that is other than the Rama & Laksmana one.

Please Ms Baganing, can you provide a reference to an image so that I may know exactly which representation you are using as your point of reference?

I have a limited knowledge about malaysian and Indonesian keris.

I don't know if my memory serves me right. One relief is a row of monkeys-- one is holding a kris-like sword and the other, a tulwar.

the second image is a kris-like sword held by a bird-man maybe garuda

[baganing_balyan]

The gonjo is generally a separate piece situated between the blade and hilt. A relatively few number of keris are "gonjo iras" where the gonjo and blade are one piece, often with a line marking where a separation would be. Most Moro (for lack a a better descriptor) kris made after 1930 also are all one piece continuous from the blade and there is just an inscribed line to mark where the separation should be. Please don't tell me this is not the case.

There are still swordsmiths in tugaya, lanao del sur who make katik as a separate part from the blade.

Nowadays, the krises made anywhere in Mindanao follow the tausug design with sarimaok handle head and the knives mostly use the metal works of the maranaos.

[Spunjer]

There are still swordsmiths in tugaya, lanao del sur who make katik as a separate part from the blade.

Nowadays, the krises made anywhere in Mindanao follow the tausug design with sarimaok handle head and the knives mostly use the metal works of the maranaos.

wow! still going strong, but it seems like it's going in a different direction, lol.
just wanna mention that i haven't seen a sarimanok style puhan come out of jolo in a very long time.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry Ms Baganing, you'll have to do better than reference to your memory. I need the image to which you refer. I cannot identify the relevant relief from your vague recollection.

[David]

There are still swordsmiths in tugaya, lanao del sur who make katik as a separate part from the blade.
I am aware of this. That is why i wrote "most" in my post. ;)
I will also go out on a limb here and state that most of these new kris are merely a shadow to the quality of old Moro swordsmithing.

[Andrew]

Let's keep this thread civil, please. Baganing, in particular, some of your posts have been obnoxious. If you want to continue posting here, I suggest you lighten up a bit.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.

[Andrew]

wow! still going strong, but it seems like it's going in a different direction, lol.
just wanna mention that i haven't seen a sarimanok style puhan come out of jolo in a very long time.


How've you been Ron? :cool: Have you got wet this summer? The swell off Hutchinson has been small, but consistent all month.

[Lew]

OK

Below are what I consider Moro battle kris/sudang or whatever else you want to call them. They all have large and heavy pattern welded blades. The kris/gunong that baganing_balyan refers in the photo of the man in yellow I would consider a newer piece made only for dress. I would not put it in the same category with the older pieces. That type of stylized dagger in the photo seems to have surfaced during the 1950s-70s and to date I have not seen any old photos pre WW2 with any Moro warrior wearing this type of dagger.

Lew

[RhysMichael]

baganing_balyan on your web page you say The clean sculptural head and handle of the yatagan was the earliest handle design of the Islamic kris of the Mindanaoan Muslims. The Indo-Buddhist handle was replaced by the Turkish one. In archeology, when it comes to tools, the evolution happened from simple to complex. Compare the yatagan's handle to the kris' of Mindanao

Then you include this photo to document it
http://bp0.blogger.com/_cAYvLXaE-IQ/SFntWaHgEeI/AAAAAAAAAGc/h_YeK5rp1Yg/s1600/yatagan1.jpg

You are aware I am sure that this looks to be a modern interpretation of a yatagan, made by a contemporary smith ( Jody Samson made similar ones I think, in fact this one may well be one of his pieces. Jody Samson made movie weapons and artistic pieced but to my knowledge does not make historical reproductions, he did make one much like this that does have ears ).
Traditional yatagan I have seen have handles like the one in the photos below ( some with smaller or larger "ears" and different angles for the "ears") With this in mind I would like to know about your feelings on the similarities to the kris photo you have on your site. The traditional yatagan I have seen also have downward curving blades. Not straight or wavy blades as seen on kris. You may also want to research the dates when yatagan first came into use. I have seem some sources put that as late as the 16th century. I cannot vouch for that but there are some on here who have a great deal of knowledge on Turkish weapons and may be able to give you better information.

[baganing_balyan]

sorry double posts.

[baganing_balyan]

when I used the images in my previous posts, I did not mind about the dates. I only used them as representations since I had no idea about the exact dates the artifacts were made. So when I use the images of Indian swords and yataghan, my concern is mainly to show what they look like.

so far the oldest illustration of yataghan i read is the one in Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword, 1884, where the bird or sarimanok motif is evident.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Yataghan.png/287px-Yataghan.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Yataghan.png&h=600&w=287&sz=180&tbnid=2JhxmDs078EJ::&tbnh=135&tbnw=65&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyataghan&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=3&ct=image&cd=1

Dating krises is really problematic. Without the use of carbon-dating, we can only get estimates, and sound estimation can only be done if the survey of krises is counducted according to groups. Sulu krises should be treated as one group and lanao's as another one, and so on and so forth.

Another proof of Turkish and Tausug's meeting of cultures:

There is a dance in sabah popular among tausugs (or suluk) called daling-daling-- it is a combination of arabic belly-dancing and indian classical dance. Not only did sarimanok motif come from turkey, daling-daling too was influenced by the turkish belly-dancing called chiftetelli.

I just compared the musical beats and dance movements in both dance forms, the similarities are pretty obvious.

I have always believed that to really understand the origin of a weapon, a general or holistic study should be done-- art, folklore, genealogy, genetics, geography, metallurgy, woodwork, warfare, spirituality, etc. That's what I want to attempt.

[RhysMichael]

when I used the images in my previous posts, I did not mind about the dates. I only used them as representations since I had no idea about the exact dates the artifacts were made. So when I use the images of Indian swords and yataghan, my concern is mainly to show what they look like.

so far the oldest illustration of yataghan i read is the one in Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword, 1884, where the bird or sarimanok motif is evident.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Yataghan.png/287px-Yataghan.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Yataghan.png&h=600&w=287&sz=180&tbnid=2JhxmDs078EJ::&tbnh=135&tbnw=65&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyataghan&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=3&ct=image&cd=1


I am not questioning that there have been Trukish Travelers to that area. I would take that as a given. I would question if by the date suggested on your for the meeting would be a time when the yatagan was in use by the ottomans
The Ottomans reached India in late 1300's. It is possible that they reached Mindanao too, particularly sulu.
I would also expect that the profile shot of the yatagan from Burton ( fig 122) would show "ears" if drawn from a different angle. Fig 123 does indeed show the "ears".

Has there ever been evidence of "ears" on Kris. If not based on the profile alone of the hilt I could easily find several other swords with the same similar profile.

[RhysMichael]

While it was 50 years later, all of the yatagan Stones Glossary show "ears". Lord Edgerton of Tatton ( 1880 ) Only shows a Kyber knife and references it as a "Salawar Yatagan" and the profile of that hilt would bear a very similar profile to the one in Bruttons book though they are very different swords. Pictures of Turkish Yatagan in "Islamic Arms" from the Victoria and Albert museum show "ears". As do the photos of Yatagan in "Ancient Weapons from the collection of the state history museum Moscow ". I am in no way claiming all yatagan have ears. I am sure we can find examples without but I am saying I believe the lateral protrusions were the norm.

[TVV]

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_1993.14.jpg

Above is a link to Sulayman the Magnificent's yataghan in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, dating from the early 1500s, which to my knowledge is the earliest known yataghan, apart from some examples in Croatian Museums with very questionable dating. Even those allegedly date back to the mid 15th century, from what I remember.

In the late 1300s, to my knowledge, the Ottomans had still not completed their conquest of the Balkans, and did not have any naval access to the Indian Ocean. Only once they defeated the Mameluks and gained access to the Red Sea, they established a naval presence outside of the Mediterranean. I believe their naval expedition to India sailed in 1538.

I would love it if there was a connection between Ottoman yataghans and kris from the Philippines. Unfortunately, I personally would need better evidence than the picture of a modern made fantasy sword, which might have been inspired by yataghans in its design (not convinced about this), but has none of the features of a traditional yataghan, especially when it comes to the hilt.

However, people in Bulgaria, who do not know much about swords, would call any exotic sword a yataghan, particularly any curved sword, such as a kilidj or shamshir. Some of them, if shown a kris, might call it yataghan as well. I guess, yet another piece of evidence supporting Ms. Baganing hypothesis, even if the sword examples themselves fail to do so.

Best regards,
Teodor

[RhysMichael]

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_1993.14.jpg

Above is a link to Sulayman the Magnificent's yataghan in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, dating from the early 1500s, which to my knowledge is the earliest known yataghan, apart from some examples in Croatian Museums with very questionable dating. Even those allegedly date back to the mid 15th century, from what I remember.

In the late 1300s, to my knowledge, the Ottomans had still not completed their conquest of the Balkans, and did not have any naval access to the Indian Ocean. Only once they defeated the Mameluks and gained access to the Red Sea, they established a naval presence outside of the Mediterranean. I believe their naval expedition to India sailed in 1538.

I would love it if there was a connection between Ottoman yataghans and kris from the Philippines. Unfortunately, I personally would need better evidence than the picture of a modern made fantasy sword, which might have been inspired by yataghans in its design (not convinced about this), but has none of the features of a traditional yataghan, especially when it comes to the hilt.

However, people in Bulgaria, who do not know much about swords, would call any exotic sword a yataghan, particularly any curved sword, such as a kilidj or shamshir. Some of them, if shown a kris, might call it yataghan as well. I guess, yet another piece of evidence supporting Ms. Baganing hypothesis, even if the sword examples themselves fail to do so.

Best regards,
Teodor

I had never seen a yatagan that old. thanks Teodor and for the history of the ottomans and their access to the sea. As I have said I am a collector not a scholar or expert, but I love learning more about these things even when what I learn proves I was wrong before.

[TVV]

I had never seen a yatagan that old. thanks Teodor and for the history of the ottomans and their access to the sea. As I have said I am a collector not a scholar or expert, but I love learning more about these things even when what I learn proves I was wrong before.

Same here - always learning.

I believe Ariel was the one who discovered the reference to the 15th century yataghan in a book called Croatian Arms. No such yataghan is mentioned in the recently published book "Zbirka Yatagana" by Dora Boskovic (who I believe has an account here but rarely visits), which is a catalogue of yataghans from the Croatian History Museum in Zagreb. Therefore, for me at least, the 15th century yataghan is more of a legend and probably the result of wrong dating. :shrug:

[David]

when I used the images in my previous posts, I did not mind about the dates. I only used them as representations since I had no idea about the exact dates the artifacts were made. So when I use the images of Indian swords and yataghan, my concern is mainly to show what they look like.

so far the oldest illustration of yataghan i read is the one in Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword, 1884, where the bird or sarimanok motif is evident.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Yataghan.png/287px-Yataghan.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Yataghan.png&h=600&w=287&sz=180&tbnid=2JhxmDs078EJ::&tbnh=135&tbnw=65&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dyataghan&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=3&ct=image&cd=1

This illustration that Baganing has linked to reminds me of the old story of the blind men and the elephant. How each one, capable of limited senses, describes what the elephant is by very limited contact with very specific parts of the beast. No single blind man is able to get a full grasp of the animal they are examining. This 2-dimensional drawing from Burton's book does not really give us a completely accurate idea of the overall shape of the yagatan hilt. From this angle we see some similarity to the Moro kakatau pommel, but seen in 3-dimensions the similarities diminish greatly. I seriously doubt that the yagatan hilt did or could have influenced the development of the kakatau pommel. And seen from multiple sides i don't get the impression that the yagatan hilt was ever meant to be the stylized bird head that the kakatau pommels seem to be (though like the keris tajong hilt, maybe it's not meant to be a bird at all :shrug: ).
Baganing, your project is both interesting and ambitious. However, you cannot just pick and choose the evidence that supports your theories and throw the rest away. No one is going to take that kind of research seriously. I know that personally i am always open to new discoveries and more than willing to see old paradigms toppled in the face of overwhelming new evidence. But what you present is just too easy to pick away at. It has no substance. Maybe you need to do just a little more field research yourself. It doesn't seem that you have even handled any old yagatans before developing this theory. You also admit to knowing very little about Malay keris. But this is obviously the origin of the Moro kris/kalis/sundang so maybe it would serve your research well if you spent a few years examining the history and roots of the keris before rushing to conclusions on the origins of the kris/kalis. The study of Malay keris is truly a lifetime's undertaking, but a little study might give you firmer ground on which to set your theories.
"I have always believed that to really understand the origin of a weapon, a general or holistic study should be done-- art, folklore, genealogy, genetics, geography, metallurgy, woodwork, warfare, spirituality, etc. That's what I want to attempt."
This is the the wisest thing you have posted so far. I don't think anyone here would argue with this. I would encourage you to continue in this quest. Unfortunately you will never accomplish this if you continue to disregard ideas and evidence when it fails to support your own theories.... or to disregard or disrespect other researcher and their questions to you when they disagree with what you want the truth to be. :)

[David]

OK

Below are what I consider Moro battle kris/sudang or whatever else you want to call them. They all have large and heavy pattern welded blades. The kris/gunong that baganing_balyan refers in the photo of the man in yellow I would consider a newer piece made only for dress. I would not put it in the same category with the older pieces. That type of stylized dagger in the photo seems to have surfaced during the 1950s-70s and to date I have not seen any old photos pre WW2 with any Moro warrior wearing this type of dagger.

Lew
Hey Lew, nice kris, especially that twisted core one at the end. Let me know if that puppy is ever looking for a new home, will ya? ;) :)
What you say here is undoubtable true and it was the point i was trying to make much early when i brought up the fact that you can find this type of thing often on eBay. I never meant to imply, as Baganing took it, that eBay was a good place to research blades, just saying that these are much more likely to be sold to "those who travel for pleasure". But these relatively new style of long punal have nothing to do with the great history of the various Moro tribes and their weapons. As you state, you would never seen a Moro Datu or warrior with anything like this in early photographs. This style just did not exist before WWII. If it is called a kris by the present culture it is only because they have forgotten the quality and power that the kris once represented. I am talking about the weapon (and the warrior) that forced the U.S. Army to develop .45 caliber Colt. I have a sneaky suspicion that these stylized punals wouldn't be too effective in battle. ;)

[Lew]

[QUOTE=David]Hey Lew, nice kris, especially that twisted core one at the end. Let me know if that puppy is ever looking for a new home, will ya? ;) :)


David

I wish that twisted core puppy were mine. I am basically down to one Moro kris and one barong now :( I am concentrating on other areas besides kris/keris at present. I would get a bit bored with collecting only one type weapon have to keep it fresh. Jack of all trades master of none that's me. ;) :D

Lew

[baganing_balyan]

The Philippine history says that the Islamization of Mindanao happened in late 1300's. I am really doubtful of that date. 14th century Moroccan traveler Ibn Batuta, a Islamic scholar, reported that he was attack by the Hindus along the coasts on his way to China from India. He indicated that he reached Sumatra. It is obvious that those Hindus who attacked him were from Java, Borneo, Sulawesi, and Mindanao. Those four places were within his route to China but he never stopped and visited those places.

I am not denying that there were already Arab traders and Missionaries in Majapahit empire, but their numbers were negligible. The sunni Islam of Sultanate of Demak that toppled the Majapahit empire in mid 16th century was actually from Southern India-- Kerala and Tamil Nadu-- established by the seljuk turks of the Ottoman empire who reached India in 14th century. There are Turkish Anatolian and Turkish Safavid inscriptions found in Tanjore (Tamil Nadu) and Thiruvarur (Kerala). (J. P. Mulliner. Rise of Islam in India. University of Leeds)

I believe the Sultanate of Demak, which was in the north coast of Java, was actually a Turkish state. Even the word "demak" came from "demek," the turkish word for "force." I think the use of 'Kilis" (from the Turkish kilich for sword) and later, "keris" started in north Java in the sixteenth century. This timeline fits within the date the word creese or kris entered the English vocabulary.

Nicholas Turling wrote about the Turks in Java and Aceh in his book, The Cambridge History of Southeast Asia. Yataghan as a 16th century Turkish weapon also fits within the time line-- middle of 1500's.

Another proof of the Turkish influence reaching as far as Mindanao is the word "arak" or "alak"--meaning, wine or liquor. It is not of sanskrit or tamil origin. araq is arabic for Juice and arak is turkish for wine or liquor. Using such etymologies, it is safe to say that the influence of the turks was more direct than the arabs.

So as I see it, yatagan indeed reached the malay archipelago in the middle of 16th century during the time of suleiman the magnificent of the ottoman empire that spearheaded the spread of Islam to the balkans, mediterranean, europe, and asia.

[David]

I believe the Sultanate of Demak, which was in the north coast of Java, was actually a Turkish state. Even the word "demak" came from "demek," the turkish word for "force." I think the use of 'Kilis" (from the Turkish kilich for sword) and later, "keris" started in north Java in the sixteenth century. This timeline fits within the date the word creese or kris entered the English vocabulary.
This is exactly what i am talking about when i point out your incredible ability to ignore facts that fly in the face of your theories. Back in post #24 (i suggest you go back and carefully re-read all of that post) Mr. Maisey presented the following:

"In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt."

Clearly here is cited literary evidence that the word keris was in common usage in Jawa in the 14th century. Did you miss this or just choose to ignore it? It is a word which came about to describe a weapon of Jawa origin when Jawa was Hindu. The word keris may very well be older than this. The keris certainly is. Mr. Maisey also provided you with a very reasonable etymology for the word from roots in the Javanese language. Why on Earth would a Hindu Javanese culture use a Islamic influenced Turkish word to derive a name for a dagger that had so much cultural significance in Hindu Jawa?
But hey, go on, keep trying to slam that square peg of yours into that round hole. :rolleyes:

[TVV]

Ms. Baganing, why are you so intent on proving a connection between the Philippines and the Ottoman Empire in particular?

There were plenty of other Turks that reached India prior to the Ottomans, such as the Ghazni Empire for example. And while the Ottomans only led an unsuccessful expedition to India in the 16th century, the Mughals, also a Turkic dynasty, managed to actually conquer most of the subcontinent at around the same time. I completely agree with you that there was Turkic influence on Indian arms and armor, I just cannot understand why you are attributing it to the Ottomans, when historically their military, trading and cultural presence was negligible, compared to the presence of other powers.

Also, you seem to completely neglect the Arab presence in South-Asia. I am not that familiar with the history of the region, so I could possibly be wrong, but I believe that Islam reached Aceh in Sumatra as early as the 7th century AD, when all Turks were still Tengrist. And Arabs had contacts with India even prior to Islam. Given all the Arab colonies and trading dating back centuries, I fail to see how the Arab presence in the region was "negligible" compared to the Ottoman presence, which never really materialized apart from a failed attack on a Portuguese fort in India.

So again, why do you like the Ottomans for your hypothesis so much?

[Nonoy Tan]

Baganing Balyan, I wish that you will be able to conduct more research and then share with us linguistic evidence supported by historical, archaeological (I hope you did not forget this one) and DNA findings.

[baganing_balyan]

can you show me a 14th century text where "keris" is used? I have been looking for that text for years now.

[baganing_balyan]

Ms. Baganing, why are you so intent on proving a connection between the Philippines and the Ottoman Empire in particular?

There were plenty of other Turks that reached India prior to the Ottomans, such as the Ghazni Empire for example. And while the Ottomans only led an unsuccessful expedition to India in the 16th century, the Mughals, also a Turkic dynasty, managed to actually conquer most of the subcontinent at around the same time. I completely agree with you that there was Turkic influence on Indian arms and armor, I just cannot understand why you are attributing it to the Ottomans, when historically their military, trading and cultural presence was negligible, compared to the presence of other powers.

Also, you seem to completely neglect the Arab presence in South-Asia. I am not that familiar with the history of the region, so I could possibly be wrong, but I believe that Islam reached Aceh in Sumatra as early as the 7th century AD, when all Turks were still Tengrist. And Arabs had contacts with India even prior to Islam. Given all the Arab colonies and trading dating back centuries, I fail to see how the Arab presence in the region was "negligible" compared to the Ottoman presence, which never really materialized apart from a failed attack on a Portuguese fort in India.

So again, why do you like the Ottomans for your hypothesis so much?

... because it would disprove many historical conventions.

Using a genetic map, haplogroup J (for arabs) was not present in the Philippines, Sumatra, and Borneo before 1500.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ms. Baganing, I suggest you read my post, #24.

Herewith a quote from that post:-

The principal literary works in which we find these words are the Nagarakertagama (approx. 1360), the Nawatnatya(14th century), the Pararaton (approx. 16th century), then there are minor references in the Rajapatigundala, and the Sarwardharma.

In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt.

In Pigeaud, Java in the Fourteenth Century, you will find the original texts, romanised, and a translation into English.

[baganing_balyan]

Baganing Balyan, I wish that you will be able to conduct more research and then share with us linguistic evidence supported by historical, archaeological (I hope you did not forget this one) and DNA findings.

on yataghan:

the two sides of the handle's pommel are not just ears. They are actually heads of the turkish mythical bird, anka-- Turkish for phoenix-- this is also known as simurgh or senmurv, a persian (iranian) word. Turkey and Iran, genetically, share the same haplogroup, G.

The philippine's version of anka is sarimanok. In malay, angka means figure. In short, the pommel of yataghan is anka among the turks and angka among the malays.

Yataghan is from yate (gate) and gan (beginning). Yataghan is "beginning of the gate." This is not only about the duty of a warrior to guard a leader but also a folklore known in Islam.

The story goes that Sarimanok or anka was found by Muhammad in the seventh heaven. It is said to be the guard of heaven when the day of judgment comes.

In Roman Catholicism, the guard of heaven is St. peter who is depicted with a key and a rooster. I am still researching which influenced which.

Yataghan is also a symbolic sword in Islam. Suleiman the magnificent had a yataghan inlaid with jewels and gold. Ahmed Tekelu made it for him "as a weapon for the defender of the faith." (Our Sacred Signs by Ori Z. Soltes)

Even the use of kakataw from cockatoo is not really correct. I have no idea how kakataw and cockatoo as a word and an image became related to kris or kalis when the tausugs, maguindanaos, maranaos, etc. know that muhammad's phoenix (or rooster) is definitely bigger and holier.

Sarimanok would have been saribon in the philippines if its a tiny bird.

[baganing_balyan]

Ms. Baganing, I suggest you read my post, #24.

Herewith a quote from that post:-

The principal literary works in which we find these words are the Nagarakertagama (approx. 1360), the Nawatnatya(14th century), the Pararaton (approx. 16th century), then there are minor references in the Rajapatigundala, and the Sarwardharma.

In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt.

In Pigeaud, Java in the Fourteenth Century, you will find the original texts, romanised, and a translation into English.


In Nawanatya, twek from tuwek, sanskrit for the sword's point, was used as a metaphor for men's masculinity. Twek is not a sword. It is where the filipino's tusok (thrust) from tuwok, a variation, came from.

There is no 'Keris" "kris" or "Kalis" in Nagarakertagama (1365). kuriga was used in that time period. It is from the sanskrit khadga that became kharga, then kuriga-- a C or a K is a matter of choice.

the word "keris" is in Pararaton. I don't wonder because the book was written in 16th century-- it is within my timeline.

When I am done, I will post about naga and kuriga as the father and the mother of keris, kris, or kalis.

[baganing_balyan]

correction on my one blog post that keras was the source of keris. it is actually the opposite.

I just got hold of the genetic map this week; hence, i am pretty sure now that keris is from the turkish word kilich which in malay is kilis because ch is pronounced as s in malay languages. L and R are also interchangeably used such as arak and alak (wine).

[Alam Shah]

Ms Baganing,
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic groups? Would you share more details? :)

With migration of people since the 1600 and later... I'm just curious what can the DNA test prove? Let's take myself as an example, I'm a malay by birth, speak malay and brought up as one... but if a DNA test is done... What would be the result? My ancestors includes, from my father side, pakistan/indian influence, from my mother's side, malay, chinese, dutch influence. What will be the outcome and what will it prove?

[baganing_balyan]

Ms Baganing,
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic groups? Would you share more details? :)

With migration of people since the 1600 and later... I'm just curious what can the DNA test prove? Let's take myself as an example, I'm a malay by birth, speak malay and brought up as one... but if a DNA test is done... What would be the result? My ancestors includes, from my father side, pakistan/indian influence, from my mother's side, malay, chinese, dutch influence. What will be the outcome and what will it prove?

They will find out your haplotype and the haplogroup where you belong. I am not a geneticist, but I can analyze the genetic data in relation to geographical peopling.

It's very technical and confusing to explain Y-DNA and mtDNA tests. I leave that to the geneticists to explain.

Y-DNA will tell you about the ancestor of your father. mtDNA will tell you where the ancestor of your mother came from. Now since you are multi-cultural, it would be a long work before you'll get the full picture.

it's like building a family tree but instead of names, you use haplotypes and haplogroups.

when it comes to research, I am not interested of a person's haplotype but his haplogroup.

For Instance I am interested to find out how many haplogroups present in sulu and compare if the same haplogroups are present in borneo and sumatra. If they are the same, it means, the migration pattern and the peopling are the same.

for example, philippines has rxr1, a haplogroup not seen in sumatra and borneo. Upon checking rxr1, the haplogroup that can be traced back to the cameroons of africa, I can then assume that indeed the theory about the early migration of the negritos (dark-skinned proto-filipinos) is indeed correct. As a matter of fact, we have african-looking ethno-linguistic groups in the philippines.

After knowing that rxr1 is non-existent in borneo and sumatra, you can infer a lot of things:

1) by using a world map, you can see that cameroon, southern India (dravidians), and Philippines are geogrpahically parallel to each other and they all have rxr1. The early migration must have missed sumatra and borneo. This also proves that dark-skined dravidians or tamils did reach the philippines in ancient times.

2) since australian aborigines have rxr1, where did it come from. It can't be from India since it had to pass sumatra and borneo. There are two possibilities: it must be direct from cameroon or from the philippines-- Southern Mindanao (davao Region) in particular. I won't wonder. there are aetas, dark-skinned groups, in the region.

So many possibilities. So many historical conventions to prove and disprove using the genetic map before 1500.

[Spunjer]

How've you been Ron? :cool: Have you got wet this summer? The swell off Hutchinson has been small, but consistent all month.


hehe, haven't really hit the water much this year, save for the artificial Flowrider. hopefully this winter. hawaii should be crankin' hard...

[A. G. Maisey]

Ms. Baganing, may I most humbly suggest that you further your studies just a little in the Old Javanese language, and it usages.

It is true, the word "kris" does not occur in the Nag., however, the word "kinris" does occur, 54.2/4:-

tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap

"kinris" means "to stab with a keris"

the word "kinris" cannot exist in the absence of the word "kris", and the implement to which it refers.

There is no Old Javanese word "kuriga"; unfortunately you are thinking in English and attempting to understand Old Javanese.The word you are attempting to render is "curiga", for an English speaker, this would be pronounced "chewreegah", but to an English speaker the Javanese pronunciation would sound like "chewreegoh" .The word "kuriga", if it did exist, which it does not, would sound like "kooreegoh". The "c" and the "k" is most definitely not a matter of choice; these two letters represent quite different symbols in the original Javanese text.

I do understand your confusion in respect of "twek" and "tewek". This is hardly the place to educate you on your lack of understanding of the nature of the keris within the early and middle Javanese context, but you really do need to educate yourself.

In Old Jawa the keris was a symbol of the male, however, the word "twek" referred to a stabbing weapon, or more precisely when coupled with the name of a weapon it referred to that weapon as a stabbing implement. Tewek is also found associated with the word "lingis"---a crowbar.

Your interpretation of twek or tewek is incorrect.May I suggest that you spend a little time with Pigeaud and Zoetmulder?

Professor Zoetmulder seemed to hold the opinion that the word kris could be found in written works as far back as the tenth century.

I do find your ideas about middle eastern influence in the early Philippines to be interesting. You may have the germ of an idea here that when fully developed could provide us with new insights, however, when you stray into ideas and language associated with the early development of the keris, and the culture from which it came, you do impair your credibility.

I once again encourage you to continue your studies, but I equally encourage you to refrain from comment in respect of those things which you do not understand, or only partially understand. In time to come your errors could return to haunt you. Restrict your comments to those things of which you have a firm grasp.

[baganing_balyan]

Ms. Baganing, may I most humbly suggest that you further your studies just a little in the Old Javanese language, and it usages.

It is true, the word "kris" does not occur in the Nag., however, the word "kinris" does occur, 54.2/4:-

tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap

"kinris" means "to stab with a keris"

the word "kinris" cannot exist in the absence of the word "kris", and the implement to which it refers.

I suggest that you read the lines before and after "tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap" then translate them to English. Then understand the essence of the lines. "aris" is a malay word too for edge, so kinaris or kinris would also mean "put to edge or turn to edge." There is also a sanskrit word karis (to do). tamil also has kari or karis for sauce or soup. I am interested to know if the line you cut is actually about food.

There is no Old Javanese word "kuriga"; unfortunately you are thinking in English and attempting to understand Old Javanese.The word you are attempting to render is "curiga", for an English speaker, this would be pronounced "chewreegah", but to an English speaker the Javanese pronunciation would sound like "chewreegoh" .The word "kuriga", if it did exist, which it does not, would sound like "kooreegoh". The "c" and the "k" is most definitely not a matter of choice; these two letters represent quite different symbols in the original Javanese text.


I don't think the curiga with C that sounds like ch is correct.
That javanese word is obviously from the sanskrit khadga (sword) with an aspirated K. I have a hunch that the linguist who studied the old javanese could not pronounce the aspirated kh sound since it was/is a rare one, if he/she was european or american, so he/she used the ch sound which was/is linguistically common.

I do understand your confusion in respect of "twek" and "tewek". This is hardly the place to educate you on your lack of understanding of the nature of the keris within the early and middle Javanese context, but you really do need to educate yourself.

I stand by my analysis of twek-- in analyzing a word, to truly understand it, trace its origin and how it evolved into a new word. In this case, include sanskrit and malay languages in dealing with twek.

In Old Jawa the keris was a symbol of the male, however, the word "twek" referred to a stabbing weapon, or more precisely when coupled with the name of a weapon it referred to that weapon as a stabbing implement. Tewek is also found associated with the word "lingis"---a crowbar.

twek is not a sword. Its use is metaphorical for masculinity.

Your interpretation of twek or tewek is incorrect.May I suggest that you spend a little time with Pigeaud and Zoetmulder?

I am really interested of a native javanese studying her or his own language. French and German, if those were their linguistic nationalities, are just not equipped to mimic the sounds of sanskrit and old javanese.

Professor Zoetmulder seemed to hold the opinion that the word kris could be found in written works as far back as the tenth century.

I would love to read that tenth century text.

I do find your ideas about middle eastern influence in the early Philippines to be interesting. You may have the germ of an idea here that when fully developed could provide us with new insights, however, when you stray into ideas and language associated with the early development of the keris, and the culture from which it came, you do impair your credibility.

Thanks. I don't waste my time on something I don't know. when i say something, it's because i have a basis.

I once again encourage you to continue your studies, but I equally encourage you to refrain from comment in respect of those things which you do not understand, or only partially understand. In time to come your errors could return to haunt you. Restrict your comments to those things of which you have a firm grasp.

I will never refrain from rethinking and reconsidering the old works of the colonialists and orientalists.

ask an american or european if he can say an aspirated K with H. I bet either one will end up producing the ch sound. That my friend is the linguistic subtlety only native speakers can detect.

I am more confident of kuriga than curiga with ch sound because kuriga entered in the filipino languages as kuliga (poke or stick in).

[baganing_balyan]

besides, if kuriga was curiga with ch sound, churiga would have evolved into suriga since ch in malay is turned into s. unfortunately there is no suriga in malay languages.

[RhysMichael]

The Philippine history says that the Islamization of Mindanao happened in late 1300's. I am really doubtful of that date. 14th century Moroccan traveler Ibn Batuta, a Islamic scholar, reported that he was attack by the Hindus along the coasts on his way to China from India. He indicated that he reached Sumatra. It is obvious that those Hindus who attacked him were from Java, Borneo, Sulawesi, and Mindanao. Those four places were within his route to China but he never stopped and visited those places.

I am not denying that there were already Arab traders and Missionaries in Majapahit empire, but their numbers were negligible. The sunni Islam of Sultanate of Demak that toppled the Majapahit empire in mid 16th century was actually from Southern India-- Kerala and Tamil Nadu-- established by the seljuk turks of the Ottoman empire who reached India in 14th century. There are Turkish Anatolian and Turkish Safavid inscriptions found in Tanjore (Tamil Nadu) and Thiruvarur (Kerala). (J. P. Mulliner. Rise of Islam in India. University of Leeds)

I believe the Sultanate of Demak, which was in the north coast of Java, was actually a Turkish state. Even the word "demak" came from "demek," the turkish word for "force." I think the use of 'Kilis" (from the Turkish kilich for sword) and later, "keris" started in north Java in the sixteenth century. This timeline fits within the date the word creese or kris entered the English vocabulary.

Nicholas Turling wrote about the Turks in Java and Aceh in his book, The Cambridge History of Southeast Asia. Yataghan as a 16th century Turkish weapon also fits within the time line-- middle of 1500's.

Another proof of the Turkish influence reaching as far as Mindanao is the word "arak" or "alak"--meaning, wine or liquor. It is not of sanskrit or tamil origin. araq is arabic for Juice and arak is turkish for wine or liquor. Using such etymologies, it is safe to say that the influence of the turks was more direct than the arabs.

So as I see it, yatagan indeed reached the malay archipelago in the middle of 16th century during the time of suleiman the magnificent of the ottoman empire that spearheaded the spread of Islam to the balkans, mediterranean, europe, and asia.

OK you have brought Aceh into the mix now, so I can speak on the timeline there a bit from and I hope it will help

Hindu and Buddist influence from India may have reached Aceh as early as the first century. sixth century A.D. Chinese chronicles. spoke of a kingdom on the northern tip of Sumatra named Po-Li. It is believed that Islam likely first entered the Indonesian archipelago through Aceh sometime between the 8th and 12th century. In 1292, Marco Polo, on his epic voyage from China visited Sumatra on his way to Persia and reported that in the northern part of the island there were at least six busy trading ports including Perlak, Samudera and lambri. In the middle of the 14th century, Pasai was invaded by Majapahit soldiers from Java

If you are interested there was an excellent conference on Aceh history inlcuding a paper on archeological sites of ancient trade cities that I can send you a link on

[A. G. Maisey]

Ms. Baganing, for somebody whose initial posts seemed to promise so much, I find it a great shame that you have reached this point.

You are well and truly out of your depth.

Nagarakertagama , canto 54 , stanza 2 reads:-

1. Staying behind were the wild boars, the black antelopes, the deer, the chevrotains, were the most excellent of them, continuously in fear.

2. The Illustrious Prince's proceeding was , having for consequence a horse, to follow them, noisily running.

3. Mandarins, headmen, clerical officers equally , the honoured ones who had their places with the horses, took part in the hunt.

4. Exterminated were the animals, thrusted , lanced, cut, krissed, dying without a gasp.(---tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap)

The line I quoted is in a part of the Nag. to do with a hunt. The translation is Pigeaud's, not mine.

Your knowledge of Javanese is non-existent. You tell us that you do not think that the romanised sound represented by "c" in Javanese is pronounced in a way that would approximate "ch" in the English language. You obviously have never heard Javanese spoken, and cannot read it.

Please spare us any more of your linguistic analyses. Indonesian is my second language, and in my home I use English, Javanese and Indonesian every day. If you wish to pass comment upon a language, please do yourself a favour, and learn that language first.

As to tewek.

I apologise for not providing you with complete information on this word. Had I done so you might have not made yourself appear so ridiculous.

In Old Javanese there are two meanings for the word tewek.
The first is to do with weapons, and I will return to that in a moment.
The second is a word that has an association with time, cause and origin; this meaning does not concern us here, so I will return to the first meaning.

The word tewek, also given as twek, and with tuhuk as a synonym, refers to a pointed weapon. Actually, it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly what weapon it does refer to, but when it is used, it is found in the context where it could be substituted with either keris or pedang, however, on other occasions it is found coupled with pedang or keris, indicating a way in which the pedang or keris is being used.When it is used alone, but it is followed by a verb indicating use of a keris, then clearly it refers to a keris in that context also.

The word atewek can mean to use a keris, or to stab oneself with a keris, or to have or use a stabbing weapon.

A panewek is a stabbing tool.

Atewek-tewekan means to stab repeatedly.

Your understanding of the word tewek is absolutely and utterly incorrect. You are wrong.

When you fail to take note of the work of Pigeaud and Zoetmulder, you make yourself appear to be an unlettered oaf, which I am quite certain you are not, but it does surprise, no, not surprise, amaze me, that any serious anthropologist working in a South East Asian culture could fail to be aware of the stature of these two giants.

Ms. Baganing, please do restrict yourself to comment on those things you may know something about.

It is clear that you know less than nothing about the Javanese culture, the Javanese language, and the Javanese keris.

[RhysMichael]

on yataghan:

the two sides of the handle's pommel are not just ears. They are actually heads of the turkish mythical bird, anka-- Turkish for phoenix-- this is also known as simurgh or senmurv, a persian (iranian) word. Turkey and Iran, genetically, share the same haplogroup, G.

The philippine's version of anka is sarimanok. In malay, angka means figure. In short, the pommel of yataghan is anka among the turks and angka among the malays.

Yataghan is from yate (gate) and gan (beginning). Yataghan is "beginning of the gate." This is not only about the duty of a warrior to guard a leader but also a folklore known in Islam.

The story goes that Sarimanok or anka was found by Muhammad in the seventh heaven. It is said to be the guard of heaven when the day of judgment comes.

In Roman Catholicism, the guard of heaven is St. peter who is depicted with a key and a rooster. I am still researching which influenced which.

Yataghan is also a symbolic sword in Islam. Suleiman the magnificent had a yataghan inlaid with jewels and gold. Ahmed Tekelu made it for him "as a weapon for the defender of the faith." (Our Sacred Signs by Ori Z. Soltes)

Even the use of kakataw from cockatoo is not really correct. I have no idea how kakataw and cockatoo as a word and an image became related to kris or kalis when the tausugs, maguindanaos, maranaos, etc. know that muhammad's phoenix (or rooster) is definitely bigger and holier.

Sarimanok would have been saribon in the philippines if its a tiny bird.

Interesting on the bird association with the yatagan, thank you for sharing that . Still I find the theory that the hilt on the Kris evolved from the yatagan tenuous at best (I find the hilt on a Nias Gari closer in profile than the yatagan to the the kris hilt you talk of, though I am in no way saying one of those evolved from the other just making note of a similarity in profile; the hilt on the Garis is a lasara head ) . If they did take the shape of the hilt from the yatagan why did they not incoporate any of the aspects of the blade ? I would find a more likely explanation that the bird motif is tied to Islamic docterine and symbology (or perhaps even earlier Judeo-Christian symbology) and both hilts evolved separately because of that. Birds are common in Aceh motifs. ( in fact I have often wondered if the hulu meucangge is supposed to symbolize a stork just as the hulu Gonjo does but thats way off the subject and just random thoughts) and the sumatran word for parrot I believe is kakaktua. The etymology is certainly interesting and deserves further study. Again I do not know that it ties the yatagan to the kris or if it just shows an influence on the language by the Otoman. Further study and proof would be needed. I can completely buy into the concept that the Ottoman had an influence on the culture and language I just need stronger proof before I would say the Kris hilt was derived from the yatagan

If you are looking for The Ottomans in Aceh a path towards the the Philippines the link below is a paper you may find interesting entitled
"Ottoman-Aceh Relations Accordingto the Turkish Sources"
Ismail Hakkı GÖKSOY
Suleyman Demirel University, Faculty of Theology,
Isparta, Turkey
Presented at First International Conference of Aceh and Indian Ocean Studies
24 – 27 February 2007
Here is the link http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/Aceh-project/full-papers/aceh_fp_ismailhakkigoksoy.pdf

I hope it proves helpful

[David]

I would just like to add a word about similarity of form. In the world there are just so many shapes. Every culture has a fascination and deep seated mythologies about birds. They are often used as motifs in all of these cultures and when stylized the similarities become even stronger. As a trained percussionist i have often marveled at the similarities between the ritual rhythms of various cultures spread all across the globe. I was recently noting a rhythm in some Indonesian music that sounds very much like one i know that originated in the Congo. There are, infact, root rhythms that transcend all cultures. This is not because these cultures have had contact with each other. It is merely the nature of things.
Someone just recently pointed out the pyamid at Candi Sukuh in Jawa to me. Let us compare it to the Mayan temple of Chichen Izza. So what do you think Baganing. Did the Mayans make their way to Jawa in the 15th century and influence the temple form at Candi Sukuh. :shrug:
....of course, there is always my old favorite, the aliens from space theory... ;) :D

[Bill]

Someone just recently pointed out the at Candi Sukuh in Jawa to me. Let us compare it to the Mayan temple of Chichen Izza. So what do you think Baganing. Did the Mayans make their way to Jawa in the 15th century and influence the temple form at Candi Sukuh. :shrug:
....of course, there is always my old favorite, the aliens from space theory... can't say I'm following this thread all that closely & it certainly has many directions but pyramids are interesting & if one wishes to spend some time with google, the Inca pyramids are the one you should start with. Then do some searches for Inca bronze weapons & compare the ax heads & spears with other artifacts in the world. interesting the Egyptians & the Inca both made the same mistake with the calender (no leap year) while it seems, with that exception, others were on the same page. It also appears a link of Inca DNA to some Pacific Islands but doesn't match current SE Asians although the pigs they brought with them link to Vietnamese pigs. I'd sure be interested if someone had some thoughts about the Inca & bronze.

[baganing_balyan]

Ms. Baganing, for somebody whose initial posts seemed to promise so much, I find it a great shame that you have reached this point.

You are well and truly out of your depth.

Nagarakertagama , canto 54 , stanza 2 reads:-

1. Staying behind were the wild boars, the black antelopes, the deer, the chevrotains, were the most excellent of them, continuously in fear.

2. The Illustrious Prince's proceeding was , having for consequence a horse, to follow them, noisily running.

3. Mandarins, headmen, clerical officers equally , the honoured ones who had their places with the horses, took part in the hunt.

4. Exterminated were the animals, thrusted , lanced, cut, krissed, dying without a gasp.(---tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap)

The line I quoted is in a part of the Nag. to do with a hunt. The translation is Pigeaud's, not mine.

Count the number of words in "tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap" and in "Exterminated were the animals, thrusted , lanced, cut, krissed, dying without a gasp." Isn't the latter too much? I know Nagarakertagama is a kakawin (epic poetry)-- maybe that's the reason why the translator was pretty lax in his translation. As i said there is a malay word aris, meaning edge. Since it is a hunting expedition, kinris or kinaris would also mean put or push to the edge.

If you read the four lines you posted, why would those hunters use krises while hunting when they were on horses. Tumbak (spear) is mentioned. Malay archipelago has a tradition of spear-hunting. Kris-hunting? mmmmm I don't think so. keris was and is not a hunting weapon.


Your knowledge of Javanese is non-existent. You tell us that you do not think that the romanised sound represented by "c" in Javanese is pronounced in a way that would approximate "ch" in the English language. You obviously have never heard Javanese spoken, and cannot read it.

Since your knowledge of javanese is existent, can you properly translate the four lines you posted? As i said, curiga came from khadga. Granting there is no research lapse in phonology, it is possible that aspirated Kh could evolve to ch sound or they were used interchangeably. we see such occurrence in chi and ki.

Please spare us any more of your linguistic analyses. Indonesian is my second language, and in my home I use English, Javanese and Indonesian every day. If you wish to pass comment upon a language, please do yourself a favour, and learn that language first.

Since you know Bahasa Indonesia, is there a traditional word with ch sound? does ch become s in your second language? Is their churiga or even suriga? You check. I will listen.

As to tewek.

I apologise for not providing you with complete information on this word. Had I done so you might have not made yourself appear so ridiculous.

In Old Javanese there are two meanings for the word tewek.
The first is to do with weapons, and I will return to that in a moment.
The second is a word that has an association with time, cause and origin; this meaning does not concern us here, so I will return to the first meaning.

The word tewek, also given as twek, and with tuhuk as a synonym, refers to a pointed weapon. Actually, it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly what weapon it does refer to, but when it is used, it is found in the context where it could be substituted with either keris or pedang, however, on other occasions it is found coupled with pedang or keris, indicating a way in which the pedang or keris is being used.When it is used alone, but it is followed by a verb indicating use of a keris, then clearly it refers to a keris in that context also.

the javanese tewek is from sanskrit tuwek, meaning sword's point. Javanese is mostly Sanskrit and malay. Any weapon with sharp endpoint has a tuwek or twek. In current malay languages, there are words such as tuhuk, tuwuk, tuk, and the filipino tusok-- all are related to sharp point or stabbing. A tusok of a barbecue stick has no relation to kris. twek is part of the sword not a sword. it can also be a part of an arrow or spear.

The word atewek can mean to use a keris, or to stab oneself with a keris, or to have or use a stabbing weapon.

It can also be used with spear, sharpened pencil, and yes, barbecue stick.

A panewek is a stabbing tool.

so is the pantusok. A ballpen can be a pantusok (for stabbing).

Atewek-tewekan means to stab repeatedly.

Tusuk-tusukan is the same thing.

Your understanding of the word tewek is absolutely and utterly incorrect. You are wrong.

mmmmm check the sanskrit tuwek and the other malay words with the same meaning-- sharp point.

When you fail to take note of the work of Pigeaud and Zoetmulder, you make yourself appear to be an unlettered oaf, which I am quite certain you are not, but it does surprise, no, not surprise, amaze me, that any serious anthropologist working in a South East Asian culture could fail to be aware of the stature of these two giants.

Tell that to the postcolonial researchers.

Ms. Baganing, please do restrict yourself to comment on those things you may know something about.

It is clear that you know less than nothing about the Javanese culture, the Javanese language, and the Javanese keris.

You can attak me with ad hominems i will stick to the bigger picture of my research not to the tiny track where i see a crack. Now, that's a rhyme.

[baganing_balyan]

can't say I'm following this thread all that closely & it certainly has many directions but pyramids are interesting & if one wishes to spend some time with google, the Inca pyramids are the one you should start with. Then do some searches for Inca bronze weapons & compare the ax heads & spears with other artifacts in the world. interesting the Egyptians & the Inca both made the same mistake with the calender (no leap year) while it seems, with that exception, others were on the same page. It also appears a link of Inca DNA to some Pacific Islands but doesn't match current SE Asians although the pigs they brought with them link to Vietnamese pigs. I'd sure be interested if someone had some thoughts about the Inca & bronze.

In addition, y-chromosome haplogroup P is found in Java, south america, carribean, egypt, and other places where there are pyramids. It has been a well-established theory that pyramid builders in the ancient times were also sea-faring people.

[baganing_balyan]

Interesting on the bird association with the yatagan, thank you for sharing that . Still I find the theory that the hilt on the Kris evolved from the yatagan tenuous at best (I find the hilt on a Nias Gari closer in profile than the yatagan to the the kris hilt you talk of, though I am in no way saying one of those evolved from the other just making note of a similarity in profile; the hilt on the Garis is a lasara head ) . If they did take the shape of the hilt from the yatagan why did they not incoporate any of the aspects of the blade ? I would find a more likely explanation that the bird motif is tied to Islamic docterine and symbology (or perhaps even earlier Judeo-Christian symbology) and both hilts evolved separately because of that. Birds are common in Aceh motifs. ( in fact I have often wondered if the hulu meucangge is supposed to symbolize a stork just as the hulu Gonjo does but thats way off the subject and just random thoughts) and the sumatran word for parrot I believe is kakaktua. The etymology is certainly interesting and deserves further study. Again I do not know that it ties the yatagan to the kris or if it just shows an influence on the language by the Otoman. Further study and proof would be needed. I can completely buy into the concept that the Ottoman had an influence on the culture and language I just need stronger proof before I would say the Kris hilt was derived from the yatagan

If you are looking for The Ottomans in Aceh a path towards the the Philippines the link below is a paper you may find interesting entitled
"Ottoman-Aceh Relations Accordingto the Turkish Sources"
Ismail Hakkı GÖKSOY
Suleyman Demirel University, Faculty of Theology,
Isparta, Turkey
Presented at First International Conference of Aceh and Indian Ocean Studies
24 – 27 February 2007
Here is the link http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/Aceh-project/full-papers/aceh_fp_ismailhakkigoksoy.pdf

I hope it proves helpful

Thanks for the link. I am primarily interested in the relationship between the turks and aceh in sixteenth century. Turling wrote about such relationship.

I have no doubt that Islamic arabs from middle east reached the malay archipelago, but dna mapping suggests that they did not last long for their haplogroups did not take root in the malay archipelago.

Maybe they are just traders or traveling missionaries or even ancient tourists like ibn batuta.

Early yatagans have no anka pommels, but the blades were inlaid with gold and jewels using anka motif. Later when the yatagans got anka pommels, the inlaid bird motifs, generally, could no longer be found on the blade.

the yatagan of suleiman the magnificent is the good example.

[Bill M]

You can attak me with ad hominems i will stick to the bigger picture of my research not to the tiny track where i see a crack. Now, that's a rhyme.


First, let me say that Alan Maisey has an incredible knowledge of Java. There is no doubt in my mind that his opinion and ideas regarding Java are correct! He has a depth of understanding that comes from over 40 years of in-depth research and understanding of this culture and their history. If he says it is so, then it is so.

Anyone who took the time to get to know him would understand this.


But in regard to the overall thread, PLEASE! There is enough acrimony in the world. Could we discuss the validity, or invalidity of these concepts and ideas, without personal attacks?

If a person makes a dumb statement, that is merely a dumb, or incorrect, statement. It does not necessarily mean the person is dumb, or incorrect all the way through.

So, could we just attack or defend the statements before the principal of this school closes the classroom? There are some good ideas here.

[David]

You can attak me with ad hominems i will stick to the bigger picture of my research not to the tiny track where i see a crack. Now, that's a rhyme.
hmmm....here's a definition of ad hominem:
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.
Mr. Maisey both address the substance of your agrument (in great detail) and produces evidence. If you don't choose to agree with the argument that is one thing. But perhaps you should learn the meaning of ad hominem before you use it incorrectly again. :rolleyes:
Sorry that you feel attacked by Mr. Maisey (and probably others including myself), but i believe you have brought this upon yourself. Personally i'm getting just a little bit frustrated with you myself. Constantly repeating your theories without providing any substance and refusing to address the numerous questions that have been asked of you will not gain you any points or friends around here. What is your agenda exactly? Obviously your theories are not being well received here. Do you intend to brow beat us into submission? I would think that any reasonable researcher would come to a forum like this looking for ideas to help in their research. Obviously you do not care for any of ours. You just want to preach your own. Their is literally hundreds of years of experience here. Mine is the very least of it. I admittedly no very little and am here to learn. Why are you here? Do realize that Mr. Maisey's experience alone with the keris spans more than 50 years....that he was also trained in the art of keris making by a well known and respected kraton empu who he apprenticed with for over 10 years. He has been emmersed in the culture of the keris and Jawa and Bali far longer than your existence on this Earth. What is your experience with the keris the or Moro kris or anything for that matter? Where and what have you studied? Who were your teachers? Why should i take your word for anything to do with the keris or Javanese language? Tell me and i will listen and consider. But you only continue to put forth a rambling and disjointed lecture with nothing more than the weakest of circumstantial evidence and ask us to buy into you theories without support or argument. Good luck with that! :rolleyes:

[baganing_balyan]

First, let me say that Alan Maisey has an incredible knowledge of Java. There is no doubt in my mind that his opinion and ideas regarding Java are correct! He has a depth of understanding that comes from over 40 years of in-depth research and understanding of this culture and their history. If he says it is so, then it is so.

Anyone who took the time to get to know him would understand this.


But in regard to the overall thread, PLEASE! There is enough acrimony in the world. Could we discuss the validity, or invalidity of these concepts and ideas, without personal attacks?

If a person makes a dumb statement, that is merely a dumb, or incorrect, statement. It does not necessarily mean the person is dumb, or incorrect all the way through.

So, could we just attack or defend the statements before the principal of this school closes the classroom? There are some good ideas here.

I hope mr. maisey won't think that i am discrediting him. I am just offering alternative ideas.

for instance spear-hunting on a horse is pretty obvious that kris cannot be used. That's a valid idea.

I just don't think people in java long ago ran with the antelopes, deers, and wild boars wielding krises or kerises.

It is also possible that they speared them first then used the krises or kerises-- only if the animals were slaughtered in temples as sacrifices since temple swords are used even today in India for that purpose-- I just don't think keris or kris is a hunting sword.

spearing, cutting, stabbing an animal is so not an Indo-budhhist thing-- it is so anti-karma and dharma. that kind of hunting would be overkill.

I hear and read a lot about spear-hunting in malay archipelago but not kris-hunting.

[David]

So, could we just attack or defend the statements before the principal of this school closes the classroom? There are some good ideas here.
Looks like we were posting at the same time Bill. I'm just a little more long winded. :)
Actually, i would recommend to the "principal" that it is indeed time to close this particular classroom. I am afraid that this discussion is going no where good. :(

[baganing_balyan]

hmmm....here's a definition of ad hominem:
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.
Mr. Maisey both address the substance of your agrument (in great detail) and produces evidence. If you don't choose to agree with the argument that is one thing. But perhaps you should learn the meaning of ad hominem before you use it incorrectly again. :rolleyes:
Sorry that you feel attacked by Mr. Maisey (and probably others including myself), but i believe you have brought this upon yourself. Personally i'm getting just a little bit frustrated with you myself. Constantly repeating your theories without providing any substance and refusing to address the numerous questions that have been asked of you will not gain you any points or friends around here. What is your agenda exactly? Obviously your theories are not being well received here. Do you intend to brow beat us into submission? I would think that any reasonable researcher would come to a forum like this looking for ideas to help in their research. Obviously you do not care for any of ours. You just want to preach your own. Their is literally hundreds of years of experience here. Mine is the very least of it. I admittedly no very little and am here to learn. Why are you here? Do realize that Mr. Maisey's experience alone with the keris spans more than 50 years....that he was also trained in the art of keris making by a well known and respected kraton empu who he apprenticed with for over 10 years. He has been emmersed in the culture of the keris and Jawa and Bali far longer than your existence on this Earth. What is your experience with the keris the or Moro kris or anything for that matter? Where and what have you studied? Who were your teachers? Why should i take your word for anything to do with the keris or Javanese language? Tell me and i will listen and consider. But you only continue to put forth a rambling and disjointed lecture with nothing more than the weakest of circumstantial evidence and ask us to buy into you theories without support or argument. Good luck with that! :rolleyes:

ask a philosopher or philologist if this is not an argumentum ad hominem:

"You are well and truly out of your depth."

to make that a statement about an idea not a person, he could have used "your ideas" not the personal "You".

don't tell me we have to spend time on argumentum ad hominem. I don't utter anything I don't know, or ain't interested to know.

[Andrew]

Not going to happen.

Thread closed.