Maranao Sundang

[Bill M]

15 wave blade 21 1/2" long
overall length 16 1/4"

A nice well-worn older kris with at least three unusual features. Who can determine/guess what they are?

[Lew]

Bill

Where do you find these things :). Very nice I see at the base of the blade there may have been a repair to the tang/pesi you know what I mean guys can anyone elaborate? Still a very sweet sword.

Congrats


Lew

[Rick]

Yep, looks like a new tang was keyed into the blade .
The stirrups don't match; the rear one is a later addition .
I'd guess the ratttan bands were a functional addition rather than aesthetic .
I'd be a bit concerned about the corrosion I see between the hilt and blade as this blade has had a serious etch .

It's quite lovely Bill .

Oh yes, did I mention the great pattern on the blade ?!? ;) :D

[David]

I also find the silver work to be unusual in design. I have never seen that "flame" pattern on the "crown" near the pommel and the reprosse work on the ferrule also looks unusual, though i can't really get a good look at it behind the rattan wrapping.

[Ferguson]

It's beautiful and interesting!
Steve

[Tim Simmons]

I have one of these Kriss. not as fancy and with a straight blade. It has the same tang {replacement?} work and finer to my mind. What bothers me is this idea of a broken or replaced tang when there appears to absolutly no evidence of heavy use on the blade. Surely to damage the tang to the degree of replacing would reflect else where on the weapon :shrug: ?

A great many broken tangs might suggest rubbish weapons or this is a construction technique ;) . We do see them rather frequently? with undamaged blades?

[Rick]

A sharp blow from the side is about all I can think of that would cause tang failure . :shrug:

Hey Bill, while you've got your camera out ....
Make with some closeup piccys of the hilt trim willya ? :D

Also I'd like to hear your comments seeing as how you're the instigator of this thread . ;) :D

Rick

[Bill M]

I like the unusual pamor, the exceptional condition of the katik (upper and lower) and the repair. (The other side is much smoother.)

[baganing_balyan]

Was this sword sold to you as an old kris? If it was, actually it is not. Old krises do not have varnished ratan strips if they were used as decorative bands. The handle head was also varnished.

This kris is recent due to the incorporations of different designs from different muslim communities. I am pretty sure that this is the kind of kris that is made in Lanao nowadays mostly for decoration and for a foreign collector.

[Battara]

I again disagree - the bands appear to have patina, and varnishing is not that uncommon on wood - not a recent creation. Also I have seen and handled the things coming out of Lanao in recent years - this does not match those at all and the blade construction is laminated whereas those from Lanao are monosteel.

[baganing_balyan]

Bill already said it's a Maranao sword. Maranaos are form Lanao.

Show me a photo of a kris collected years ago with a cherry-varnished handle head. I would love to see it since I believe there were cherry-colored tree/woods before, not red lawaan, that are extinct now and I also believed that resin and some gluey sap were used as varnish because some lumad kids still polish their nails using them.

[Battara]

I did have one years ago from a US vet that fought at the battle of Bud Bagsak in 1915 with the same red color pommel - I will have to look to see if I have a photo....

The narra tree is red on the deeper inside and often it's burl was used to make pommels......

[David]

Well Bill, i don't need to tell you that this is obviously an older kris and that it is certainly not "the kind of kris that is made in Lanao nowadays mostly for decoration and for a foreign collector". I think that any serious collector can see that as well. Judging the age of the kris based on the rattan bands is just ridiculous. It is the blade that one must judge the kris by, not the dress, which has obviously had some repairs and adjustments over the years. I doubt, for instance, that the rattan bands were original to this kris. The pommel my have very well been changed as well. Who knows. We can see that the back asang-asang is newer than the front one. This is the nature of a sword that has seen real use. It has different repairs and different adaptaions from different periods of it's life. It is interesting that the person who linked us to a website of a man standing in front of a wall full of decorative tourist punals which she claimed to be real kris thinks that this kris is a tourist piece. :rolleyes:

[baganing_balyan]

a maranao datu with a tourist's punyal? No comment.

I can go on and on with the designs of that maranao kris, but it's a waste of time. I find no academic merit in talking about it.

Even the patina is very telling. I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is not.

In cultural preservation's point of view, selling fake or replica is fine. It preserves the real cultural artifacts within the community. It is also good to sell real ones to serious collectors so hopefully when they die they can donate their collection to a museum.

Fake or not, I don't really care.

[baganing_balyan]

old patina is darker and oftentimes greenish.

I can even see some welding traces.

[Alam Shah]

a maranao datu with a tourist's punyal? No comment.

I can go on and on with the designs of that maranao kris, but it's a waste of time. I find no academic merit in talking about it.Yeah, right... :rolleyes:

Even the patina is very telling. I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is notHmmm... good idea. I guess you'll still a long way off, in old weapons appreciation. :cool:

In cultural preservation's point of view, selling fake or replica is fine. It preserves the real cultural artifacts within the community. It is also good to sell real ones to serious collectors so hopefully when they die they can donate their collection to a museum.

Fake or not, I don't really care.Hmmm... I sense 'something' in your writing... I guess, if an authentic piece that is well-maintain outside the Phillipines, you'll still have your doubt with its authenticity. :shrug: .

Oh! btw Bill, that's a nice piece you have there, even with the repair. :)

[baganing_balyan]

can you not see the welding dots just above the katik on the second pic?

Now, compare that to the second kris, which I think is old and older.

Now tell me why it's old. Educate me.

[baganing_balyan]

also, study the surface of the blade. If it's grainier, then it's not older. Sharpening a snaky kris with no distinct design or pamor on both sides also makes the area near the center of the blade smooth. the blade just looks new to me.

don't tell me you want me to elaborate more on the handle which is the most problematic one.

[kai]

Hello Miya,

also, study the surface of the blade. If it's grainier, then it's not older.
This blade has been etched with ferric chloride which is more agressive than coconut water or other traditional etchants used in SE Asia.

I agree that a Moro warrior would have kept his kris in better polish and only lightly etched. However, long-time storage has taken its toll with some of the old blades (neglected by US veterans as well as by less blade-savy Filipinos) - so it's quite common to find genuine antique kris with various forms of corrosion; if gently cleaned rather than polished, the surface will look grainy.

Regards,
Kai

[baganing_balyan]

I am interested to know how the mindanao muslims long ago came up with Ferric Chloride. I did not know there was chemistry already in the Philippines then. I wish we were that scientifically advanced, Americans would not have slaughtered so many Moros in the name of manifest destiny.

[Spunjer]

I am interested to know how the mindanao muslims long ago came up with Ferric Chloride. I did not know there was chemistry already in the Philippines then. I wish we were that scientifically advanced, Americans would not have slaughtered so many Moros in the name of manifest destiny.

radio shack?

hoy, he meant it was etch recently with ferric chloride.

Old krises do not have varnished ratan strips if they were used as decorative bands. The handle head was also varnished.
here's a kris brought back in 1901
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/da433578-1.jpg
...and panabas in that same collection
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/acb9dca1.jpg

see? it's varnished

[Bill M]

Ron,

Meant to say earlier that I am also glad to see you back! You have a lot to contribute.

[Rick]

radio shack?

ROTFLMAO !! :D :D
Great to see you're back Ron .. :)


Rick

[David]

I would rather shut up though since I have no interest in antique collection and in knowing what's real and what is not.

hmmm...if only you would...:rolleyes:
If you have know interest in antique weapons you are definitely in the wrong place my dear. Stop wasting our time.
We are being trolled and it might be best to just ignore Baganing. She obviously knows nothing about antique weapons and would rather extol the virtues of modern decorative punals then come to any real understanding of real Moro weaponry.
Educate you Baganing? If only i thought you sincerely meant this. IMHO it would seem to be a waste of time and virtual space.

[Rick]

Something occurred to me while pondering these keyed tang replacements .
Let me propose a scenario (always fun :D ):

Captured weapons in the field; some may have been confiscated but some may also have been destroyed on the spot .
How do you make the kris unusable ?
Break the tang .

A small unit in the field could not afford to be weighed down with every confiscated weapon on a patrol or after a skirmish .

Just musing .......... :shrug:

[nacho]

I'm a beginner at this but I study very hard (which means I try to read everything you guys say about moro swords in this forum). I find the discussion on how old kris blade metal should look like, rather interesting. I was in the National Museum (Philippines) last week to look at the weapons display -- items from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. Half of the kris swords on display have very shiny, no-pattern and polished-looking blades (new looking). The other half have darker gray blades with grainy patterns. All of them are pre-1904.

[Rick]

I know that the collection of Col. Harold Bandholtz was shown at the 1904 exposition .
Is this a different one ?

Have any of these blades etc. of this collection been repatriated to the Philippine Peoples in the past ?

I have a pair of the spears from that collection and they have a dark finish that shows the watering of the steel slightly .

[P.Abrera]

I'm a beginner at this but I study very hard (which means I try to read everything you guys say about moro swords in this forum). I find the discussion on how old kris blade metal should look like, rather interesting. I was in the National Museum (Philippines) last week to look at the weapons display -- items from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. Half of the kris swords on display have very shiny, no-pattern and polished-looking blades (new looking). The other half have darker gray blades with grainy patterns. All of them are pre-1904.

Is this a new exhibit/display? I've not seen more than 5 or 6 of kris and barung that are part of the permanent displays at the Nat'l Museum in Manila?

[nacho]

The exhibit is new. It is in the groundfloor of the new Museum (the former Finance Building). There are over a hundred swords (moro, visayan, Luzon), dozens of spears, one round moro shield, bagobo shields, hats, Igorot weapons, war drums, and many more.

When we went there last week the doors of the exhibit room were closed as they were still fixing up part of it. However, we begged an officer of the museum to let us in -- which they graciously did.

They said the exhibit was open two/three months ago. But they want to fix the way they did the displays because right now visitors can reach in and touch the swords (there is glass partition but open on top) -- "and many do".

There is a smaller exhibit of weapons in the old museum building. That's the one with about 5 or 6 kris/barongs.

[Battara]

I was in the National Museum (Philippines) last week to look at the weapons display -- items from the 1904 St. Louis Exposition. Half of the kris swords on display have very shiny, no-pattern and polished-looking blades (new looking). The other half have darker gray blades with grainy patterns. All of them are pre-1904.
I suspect that many of these were sent back to the PI from vets here in the US and there was a custom back in the late 1800s to the mid 1900s of polishing up blades from any country to make them shiny. Many Nepalese kora were ruined this way by Victorians polishing out blade engravings. In the US collectors would do the same to PI/Moro pieces and even US Civil War swords. They would even throw away the scabbards of Moro and US Civil War pieces.:eek:

This is probably why you see so many shiny blades there in the museum. Also, once captured, the vets did not know to keep the blades in etched condition (if they werent polished),

[Spunjer]

I know that the collection of Col. Harold Bandholtz was shown at the 1904 exposition .
Is this a different one ?

Have any of these blades etc. of this collection been repatriated to the Philippine Peoples in the past ?

I have a pair of the spears from that collection and they have a dark finish that shows the watering of the steel slightly .

for the life of me, i can't remember who told me this, but yeah, it's possible that the weapons on display might be bandholtz's. reason i said that, i was told that his descendants returned half (!) of his collection to the Philippine Govt not too long ago.
as far as polished and new looking blades, i wouldn't doubt that at all; here are some examples that was brought over by an american officer in 1900, and was literally frozen in time since once it got here, it was stored (pics taken by me):


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/9539cedc.jpg



oh, and wassup fellas?

[nacho]

Yes, that's exactly how many of the blades in the exhibit looked like -- polished blades like stainless steel. I guess they must been polished to make them look nice for the exposition and then kept all these years. That's why they look that way.

I also collect ivory santos and we know that 100 year-old ivory kept inside a glass virina can look new and without the yellowing we call patina. I guess for 100 year-old kris pommels, the same thing can be expected. Meaning they can look new if kept/stored all these years.

[Spunjer]

Yes, that's exactly how many of the blades in the exhibit looked like -- polished blades like stainless steel. I guess they must been polished to make them look nice for the exposition and then kept all these years. That's why they look that way.

I also collect ivory santos and we know that 100 year-old ivory kept inside a glass virina can look new and without the yellowing we call patina. I guess for 100 year-old kris pommels, the same thing can be expected. Meaning they can look new if kept/stored all these years.
nacho,
not necessary polished, but rather it looked like that to begin with. reason i said that is because the same krises i posted above, there were pictures taken of the same swords by the original collector before it left the philippines, and it looked exactly the same, without any hint of being etched. here are some other ones. notice how shiny the one third from the top is:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/2da1e06c.jpg
wow, i would live to see that collection! i only saw the same five or six that was displayed in the old museum.
nacho, if you can take some pics and post it here, it would be most appreciated. i did try to take pics of the ones in the old museum but i wasn't allowed, lol..

[P.Abrera]

Yes, that's exactly how many of the blades in the exhibit looked like -- polished blades like stainless steel. I guess they must been polished to make them look nice for the exposition and then kept all these years. That's why they look that way.

I also collect ivory santos and we know that 100 year-old ivory kept inside a glass virina can look new and without the yellowing we call patina. I guess for 100 year-old kris pommels, the same thing can be expected. Meaning they can look new if kept/stored all these years.

Thanks for the heads-up on the exhibit. It is indeed a mix of the St. Luis Expo as well as some items already part of the museums collection. As it turns out it wont be open to the public for a while yet but can be viewed with appointment.

It's the most extensive local exhibit I've seen, unfortunately, almost all the moro weapons have had an over-enthusiastic cleaning. On some all patina has been removed in the quest to reveal bright metal. And all that have been cleaned bear evidence of having been cleaned with (gasp) a course grit belt grinder/sander. They could all have done with a bit more tlc than they recieved. I'm sure quite a few of them lost a touch of grace from their profiles from the less than delicate cleaning. A couple are also displayed with their handles on backwards and many are now missing asang-asang and handle crests, surely stripped from the swords long ago for the precious metals and ivory. A couple of the budjak spears appear to have once been "painted" silver as well. Thankfully there are only traces of the paint left now. It would be nice if the museum was open to some tips on how to better care and display their collection. Some ren wax should have been all that was done to the pieces. The visayan swords are in much better shape (and are of a good cross section of the vast variety) and there are a couple of unusual pieces there. Certainly worth the trip.

But yes, to answer your question, I am certain all but a couple of blades in the moro collection there would display a piled or laminated blade construction from non-homogenous steels given a proper cleaning and etch.

[Nonoy Tan]

The exhibit of the 1904 specimens at the Phil National Museum has been taking some time to open. For some reason, prep work has been quite show. I learned about it a year ago and thereafter visited in Oct 2007 to chekout the on-and-off prep work. Noticed some errors in the display (e.g. inverted Tinggian shield, etc.) and humbly pointed it out to the staff who were glad to correct them. Indeed, the exhibit would be something worth visiting. By the way, I've been given the opportunity by the museum curator to photograph and document the weapons in the museum inventory and hope to be able to share (publish) these for everyone in the future. Meanwhile, I've been preparing to complete an appropriate photo studio/equipment set-up for this purpose :)

[Nonoy Tan]

I forgot to mention ...

Paolo, I am optimistic that we in the private sector can do a lot to support the Phil National Museum (PNM) , especially in the area of inventory management, preservation and storage. A parallel goal I had in mind was to provide PNM the digitial images of its weapons inventory, which the institution can use for their electronic database. This is pro-bono work. As you could imagine, there are many other areas where we can help. We can probably work with the other museum volunteers to ren wax those blades :) I'll be the first one to donate 2 liters.

[salaghati]

I forgot to mention ...

Paolo, I am optimistic that we in the private sector can do a lot to support the Phil National Museum (PNM) , especially in the area of inventory management, preservation and storage. A parallel goal I had in mind was to provide PNM the digitial images of its weapons inventory, which the institution can use for their electronic database. This is pro-bono work. As you could imagine, there are many other areas where we can help. We can probably work with the other museum volunteers to ren wax those blades :) I'll be the first one to donate 2 liters.

That's a good idea Nonoy.

[Rick]

I'm very glad to hear that at least half of the Bandholtz collection found its way home . :)

[Rick]

for the life of me, i can't remember who told me this, but yeah, it's possible that the weapons on display might be bandholtz's. reason i said that, i was told that his descendants returned half (!) of his collection to the Philippine Govt not too long ago.
as far as polished and new looking blades, i wouldn't doubt that at all; here are some examples that was brought over by an american officer in 1900, and was literally frozen in time since once it got here, it was stored (pics taken by me):


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/9539cedc.jpg



oh, and wassup fellas?

Bertha soon Ron . :D
Maybe a run East is in order . ;)

The middle kris you show pretty much throws out the pointy luks being a recent development theory . :D

Rick

[Battara]

Rick you make a good point, though most of the pointy luk ones I have seen were later. That is why other things must be taken into account in determining age as well which I see on this piece. One attribute alone is not enough of course.

Nonoy I look forward to more pictures.

[Bill M]

Here is a pretty good slightly pointy luk, overcleaned by a previous owner. :shrug:

[P.Abrera]

I forgot to mention ...

Paolo, I am optimistic that we in the private sector can do a lot to support the Phil National Museum (PNM) , especially in the area of inventory management, preservation and storage. A parallel goal I had in mind was to provide PNM the digitial images of its weapons inventory, which the institution can use for their electronic database. This is pro-bono work. As you could imagine, there are many other areas where we can help. We can probably work with the other museum volunteers to ren wax those blades :) I'll be the first one to donate 2 liters.

Agreed. There is quite a bit of work to be done. Good to know there are others interested in doing this kind of thing. The museum could use a a hand with adding some information to the displays, i'm not the "expert" to do it, but the information found in this forum alone could really take the exhibit up a few notches.

[nacho]

There is also an on-going exhibit at the Yuchenco Museum on "SULU". 5 Moro armors, several lantakas and maybe 15 moro swords (all with ivory pommels). The brass armor with arabic inscriptions, which is the subject of one of the threads, is on display.

[Bill M]

There is also an on-going exhibit at the Yuchenco Museum on "SULU". 5 Moro armors, several lantakas and maybe 15 moro swords (all with ivory pommels). The brass armor with arabic inscriptions, which is the subject of one of the threads, is on display.


Wonderful! I would love to see this exhibit.

The Moro armor with the inscription is copper, not brass. I have held the piece.

[nacho]

Bill,

Yes, you are right. The moro armor with inscriptions is copper.

[David]

as far as polished and new looking blades, i wouldn't doubt that at all; here are some examples that was brought over by an american officer in 1900, and was literally frozen in time since once it got here, it was stored (pics taken by me):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/9539cedc.jpg

Perhaps some of you more learned Moro collectors can clear something up for me. Do we really know that it was the custom to etch and darken kris blades back in the day or is this just a more modern "tradition" started by collectors who wanted to see the laminated patterns in their kris? I keep trying to find old photos of Moros with there weapons out so i can see for myself, but i have not come across any that clearly show this. Spunjer shows us these examples which are supposedly untouched since their collection in 1900 and these blades are shiny. Anyone have any photos that can prove Moros darkened their blades? Anyone have any old (or even new) written evidence? Just wondering. :shrug:

[Rick]

Perhaps some of you more learned Moro collectors can clear something up for me. Do we really know that it was the custom to etch and darken kris blades back in the day or is this just a more modern "tradition" started by collectors who wanted to see the laminated patterns in their kris? I keep trying to find old photos of Moros with there weapons out so i can see for myself, but i have not come across any that clearly show this. Spunjer shows us these examples which are supposedly untouched since their collection in 1900 and these blades are shiny. Anyone have any photos that can prove Moros darkened their blades? Anyone have any old (or even new) written evidence? Just wondering. :shrug:

In Crossing Sulu Seas , Cecil's video they show the pattern being brought out in a Barong with lime juice after forging . :shrug:

[David]

In Crossing Sulu Seas , Cecil's video they show the pattern being brought out in a Barong with lime juice after forging . :shrug:
Yes. i remember that, but what year was that film made. I am wondering more about 19th century kris and before.
To make an Indo keris comparison, it would appear that from examining Javanese keris that were collected in the first encounters with the Dutch that these keris were polished in a similar way to what we might know as a Balinese style. At some point this tradition changed in Jawa and the deeper etched look came into style. So, does this segment in Sulu Seas really give us any solid evidence that earlier Moros also darkened their blades? :shrug:

[Rick]

Here's a pic of a Kampilan blade with a stable untouched patina . :shrug:

As an observation; I would think that mirror bright blades would be a detriment in ambush and stealth type combat .

[Spunjer]

interesting point, david.
in that collection i saw, not one showed any type of pattern. matter of fact, the collection was kept "western style", in that it was left untouched.
perhaps not mirrored finish but rather just as is...

rick,

dam, would love to hit some real surf right about now, lol.
as far as the pointy luks, that was my impression when i saw this kris.
here are some close ups:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/c5ab6b55.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/39dd8f07.jpg

[Rick]

Oh my !
That is really nice work Ron .

[David]

Thanks for your example Rick as well as your close-ups Ron.
I'm not sure that the Kampilan pic isn't just darkened from age rather than intentionally. That's what i'd like to know for sure.
Nice kris Ron. :)

[Bill M]

interesting point, david.
in that collection i saw, not one showed any type of pattern. matter of fact, the collection was kept "western style", in that it was left untouched.
perhaps not mirrored finish but rather just as is...

rick,

dam, would love to hit some real surf right about now, lol.
as far as the pointy luks, that was my impression when i saw this kris.
here are some close ups:


Very nice, Ron!

Magellan didn't fare to well in the surf.......
:eek:

[Rick]

No, he definitely kooked out Bill .
Rule number one :
Don't tick off the locals . ;) :D

[kino]

No, he definitely kooked out Bill .
Rule number one :
Don't tick off the locals . ;) :D


LOLZ!

Did anyone see Sunny Garcia chase Neco out of the water during the '07 Pipe Masters. Talk about ticking off the locals. :eek:

[asomotif]

this is the kind of kris that is made in Lanao nowadays mostly for decoration and for a foreign collector.

Ps. where are these tourist shops ? I like to shop around there. :D :D :D
Do they have dayak items as well ;)

[kai]

Hello David,

Thanks for bringing this up.

I keep trying to find old photos of Moros with there weapons out so i can see for myself, but i have not come across any that clearly show this.
Yes, I also would like to see some photographic evidence from the late 19th or early 20th century. I'm not keeping my breath though since (light) staining of blades is hard enough to photograph nowadays and obviously much less likely to get picked up accidentally with antique photography equipment.

Spunjer shows us these examples which are supposedly untouched since their collection in 1900 and these blades are shiny.
I don't think these qualify as evidence. Maybe these blades were not touched once they reached the US collection/museum. However, there was plenty of time to "clean up" the blades on the voyage back home. An officer had enough bored soldiers at hand to set up a cleaning party... :shrug:

Your best bet would be to locate ethnographic collections which were acquired while the old kris tradition was still alive and where the collecting of weapons as well as other artifacts was done by scientists rather than by military officers. I doubt wether the early (pre-Span.-Am. war) US expeditions to the Philippines would qualify - maybe someone can elucidate how they were organized and carried out?

To make an Indo keris comparison, it would appear that from examining Javanese keris that were collected in the first encounters with the Dutch that these keris were polished in a similar way to what we might know as a Balinese style. At some point this tradition changed in Jawa and the deeper etched look came into style.
The northern keris are often only etched rather than stained with warangan. Thus, all keris were routinely etched (and often stained). IMHO this makes it pretty likely that kris (keris sundang) were traditionally etched, too.

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Thanks for your example Rick as well as your close-ups Ron.
I'm not sure that the Kampilan pic isn't just darkened from age rather than intentionally. That's what i'd like to know for sure.
Nice kris Ron. :)

David, I got this kampilan from a source totally ignorant of its origin .
This blade is original in its finish; IMO any staining would be from age or use only . :)

[Rick]

LOLZ!

Did anyone see Sunny Garcia chase Neco out of the water during the '07 Pipe Masters. Talk about ticking off the locals. :eek:

I've got a pair of black Katins ........ ;) :D

[David]

Yes, I also would like to see some photographic evidence from the late 19th or early 20th century. I'm not keeping my breath though since (light) staining of blades is hard enough to photograph nowadays and obviously much less likely to get picked up accidentally with antique photography equipment.
I wouldn't expect to be able to clearly see a pattern, but photo equiptment from the turn of the century was certainly advanced enough to be able to see if the blade was shiny or darkened. It would all depend on if the photograph was a reasonable distance from a drawn blade


The northern keris are often only etched rather than stained with warangan. Thus, all keris were routinely etched (and often stained). IMHO this makes it pretty likely that kris (keris sundang) were traditionally etched, too.
I not only follow your logic, but tend to agree with it. I am not necessarily presenting the argument that blades weren't etched, just looking for evidence of it. :)
My point about Javanese keris once receiving a Balinese style polish with it's etching was only to show that traditions can change over the years. It would be nice if we could determine with some certainty if etching blades dark was indeed always the tradition. :shrug:

[Battara]

I will make a note - even if the blades were originally etched (and I think they were like most of those in Indonesia) many may not have been kept that way all the time, especially battle field pieces, but occasionally.

Then as time passes, the etching/staining may not stay for long due to oxidation or soft abrasion in the scabbards. I have noticed this on Indonesian pieces. My Balinese keris blade, for example, was once black and silver, but 200 years later is grey-blue and silver. In some of the museums, I have seen junggayan kris that showed the pattern welding - and the museums do not have the understanding or time to etch/stain!

However, I do know that subsequent owners who brought them over to the US did as a custom of the day did polish/clean blades - PI/Moro/US Civil War/etc - and made them shiny......

[kino]

I've got a pair of black Katins ........ ;) :D

Me too. HUI!

[P.Abrera]

I will make a note - even if the blades were originally etched (and I think they were like most of those in Indonesia) many may not have been kept that way all the time, especially battle field pieces, but occasionally.

Then as time passes, the etching/staining may not stay for long due to oxidation or soft abrasion in the scabbards. I have noticed this on Indonesian pieces. My Balinese keris blade, for example, was once black and silver, but 200 years later is grey-blue and silver. In some of the museums, I have seen junggayan kris that showed the pattern welding - and the museums do not have the understanding or time to etch/stain!

However, I do know that subsequent owners who brought them over to the US did as a custom of the day did polish/clean blades - PI/Moro/US Civil War/etc - and made them shiny......

Just to get my 2 cents in, I would assume that since the moro aesthetic included choosing well grained woods for the beautiful figure of the grain as well as taking pains to polish horn and ivory for thier luster, thier aesthetic may very well have included etching treatments to reveal and enhance the grain and complex blade structures of thier swords.

But just to balance that out, stories are told of the practice of polishing and whitening blades before going juramentado as well.

These are just old stories but may well have some basis like the term "pinuti" in visayan swords meaning to whiten.

Just throwing some ideas around :)

[David]

Well, this is just Wiki info and the actual statement is not credited, but this article also mentions polishing the weapon before juramentado. :shrug:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BusterD/sandbox

[Spunjer]

Hello David,







I don't think these qualify as evidence. Maybe these blades were not touched once they reached the US collection/museum. However, there was plenty of time to "clean up" the blades on the voyage back home. An officer had enough bored soldiers at hand to set up a cleaning party... :shrug:






Regards,
Kai

i don't see why they shouldn't. it was given to the officer by different datus knowing he was an avid collector. and these were boxed up before leaving p.i. btw, major conflict in mindanao didn't start until 1902 so you could say these were acquired during "peace time"...

check out datu banquie's (sp) kris. i realize it's not close up, but it seems to be the dude's like, "check this shiny kris i got..."
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/2df5e72c.jpg

[Spunjer]

LOLZ!

Did anyone see Sunny Garcia chase Neco out of the water during the '07 Pipe Masters. Talk about ticking off the locals. :eek:
ho brah! you should check the alexander kala/texan surfer beef at pipes about 5 years ago. i think youtube still got it. it's a classic!

[David]

Great photo Ron. I hope we can find more like this that show the blades in an old cultural context. :)

[kino]

ho brah! you should check the alexander kala/texan surfer beef at pipes about 5 years ago. i think youtube still got it. it's a classic!


I did see a few years ago. Kala's the enforcer. No dropping in on someone, no shoulder hopping, Pipes too dangerous. Gotta respect.

[Rick]

The middle sundang with the sharp luks that Ron showed in his pic; even polished you could easily see the structure within that blade .

'He so haole .......' :D :D

[Battara]

i don't see why they shouldn't. it was given to the officer by different datus knowing he was an avid collector. and these were boxed up before leaving p.i. btw, major conflict in mindanao didn't start until 1902 so you could say these were acquired during "peace time"...

check out datu banquie's (sp) kris. i realize it's not close up, but it seems to be the dude's like, "check this shiny kris i got..."
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/2df5e72c.jpg
Actually I think the picture was over exposed, so I lowered the exposure and below is the result. Notice that the baka baka are shiny and lighter in color than the blade....

[ThePepperSkull]

Apologies in advance if it's bad form to resurrect an old thread on these forums, but I remember seeing a picture not too long ago of a Datu (from Sulu, I believe) holding his Kris in the air with the sun shining in his face.

The whole blade did not glint in the sun, in fact it looked quite grey/black in the picture. The two baca-baca at the base of the blade, however, were quite reflective.

I can't for the life of me find that picture now, but when I do, I'll be sure to edit this post with it.

[Maurice]

Apologies in advance if it's bad form to resurrect an old thread on these forums, but I remember seeing a picture not too long ago of a Datu (from Sulu, I believe) holding his Kris in the air with the sun shining in his face.

The whole blade did not glint in the sun, in fact it looked quite grey/black in the picture. The two baca-baca at the base of the blade, however, were quite reflective.

I can't for the life of me find that picture now, but when I do, I'll be sure to edit this post with it.
must be this one!

[Aleksey G.]

same pic with with a touch of some photo magic

[ThePepperSkull]

It's that exact one! Thanks, guys.

I remember seeing it numerous times while reading about moro Kris, but when the image needs popping up, I couldn't seem to find it!

[Bill M]

Looks like his feet are etched :eek:

[David]

Well i would say that the blade definitely appears to be etched dark in this photo so there must be some tradition to it. :)

[ThePepperSkull]

Looks like his feet are etched :eek:

I wonder what Pamor we'd call that.... Pamor Bluchis (Blue cheese) ?

Well i would say that the blade definitely appears to be etched dark in this photo so there must be some tradition to it. :)

Definitely. I'd say that this would be indicative of the aforementioned sun heat and Citrus juice etching method mentioned in this thread.

[Bill M]

I heard that the Moro liked darker blades when they waited in ambush. Perhaps lighter blades when at home or when they wanted to make a "flashy entrance."

I recently met a Moro Princess of the Buayan Dynasty. Maybe she would know. I'll ask. She is more involved in politics, but since Datu Utto was in her lineage, she might have an opinion.

[Gustav]

Dear All,

regarding the stain on moro krisses: in a catalogue of an Pilippines exhibition in Munich from 1985 I found this kris.

There is no date of acquisition in the catalogue, yet it should be between 1880 and 1926.

It is also interesting with regards to this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15452&highlight=kris+krosses

[Battara]

Gustav, what a great piece! Superb in condition and creation. Also great example of blades being first stained.

I might place this piece a little earlier only because of the workmanship quality. maybe 1860s - 1880s? The blade is Maguindanao. The work maybe too.

Thanks for sharing. Could you also post the description please (even if it is in German)?

[Gustav]

Jose, the description is very rudimentary:

A sword with straight Kris-blade. Blackened steel with "Silbertauschierung" (silver inlays). Chased silver handle in shape of a rudimentary bird form, which carries the kris on its back (typ 1.5); length: 55 cm; Sulu Archipelago, 19. cent.

Staatliches Museum für Völkerkunde München.

Inv. number : 25-60-14

The writer, Rose Schubert, has an interesting, yet strange vision of the hilt: she interprets these hilts as a bird, which carries the kris on its back; this form becomes evident once the tip of the blade points upward. It makes perhaps some sense with Junggayan, yet not with simpler forms.

I ask me, if description "silver inlay" is absolutely precise also. If you look closely, the silver vire seems twisted. I suppose, it could be intertwined silver and gold wire, as seen on some examples.

Jose, if you are interested in the date of acquisition of this kris, I could try to ask the museum.

[Battara]

If you would Gustav, that would be great. The blade looks Maguindanao, but yes the okir has a Sulu flair to it, even though some aspects seem Maguindanao as well.

Any extra information would be so helpful to us......

[Spunjer]

beautiful kris, gustav. similar in style with this kris:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15535&highlight=robotic
notice the one kino posted on that same thread.



The writer, Rose Schubert, has an interesting, yet strange vision of the hilt: she interprets these hilts as a bird, which carries the kris on its back; this form becomes evident once the tip of the blade points upward. It makes perhaps some sense with Junggayan, yet not with simpler forms.



i agree with the writer on this, in that the hilt is that of a bird; sarimanok, to be more specific, and not the cockatoo that cato proposed. junggayans tend to be the more stylized and kinda pushing it to the edge version of the sarimanok...

[Gustav]

i agree with the writer on this, in that the hilt is that of a bird; sarimanok, to be more specific, and not the cockatoo that cato proposed. junggayans tend to be the more stylized and kinda pushing it to the edge version of the sarimanok...

Ron, would you see the bird also this way then? As I said, with Juggayan it makes some sense, yet with simpler forms...

Jose, I would not pay to much attention to the description. There is a picture of campilan she also describes "Sulu Archipelago", as well as the kris below.

[Battara]

I ask me, if description "silver inlay" is absolutely precise also. If you look closely, the silver vire seems twisted. I suppose, it could be intertwined silver and gold wire, as seen on some examples.
I forgot to respond to this - yes there are wire twist inlays done on some kris. Not an easy thing to do.

[Spunjer]

Ron, would you see the bird also this way then? As I said, with Juggayan it makes some sense, yet with simpler forms...


hello Gustav,
yes. on the pommel of the kris in the picture you've provided, you could see the profile of the sarimanok, the mythical chicken venerated throughout Moroland. meanwhile, the more common types (I've attached a picture below, in the same position) is just that, a less elaborate form of the junggayan pommel, but nevertheless, it's the same motif. notice the triangular appendage (with a curly cue tip) on the side of the junggayan pommel. it's pretty obvious representation of the wings. you will notice the same appendages on the less elaborate pommels. the flat, angled part on the left (of the picture) of the common pommel is just an abbreviated version of the tail, while on the right is an abbreviated version of the head. such is Ukkil..
the Sarimanok is a common motif in the arts and crafts of the Moro culture, but nowhere do you see the cockatoo.

[Gustav]

Ron, thank you very much for the explanation.

[Battara]

Gustav, you have pm.