Strange Sumatran/Moro keris? kris? dagger? with a Dutch blade?

[Bill M]

One of the things I like about Moro kris is the incredible diversity of styles. Dramatically different pieces, extremely personal to whomever had them made, then later embellished the weapons as different owners made them more "personal."

BUT

This has GOT to be one of the most unique, one-of-a-kind I have ever seen.

The blade has been identified as a Dutch VOC Rotterdam. Sandwich welded in place.

Very well made and solid. Age patina indicates it has been together for a long time.

Overall length - 48 cm or 19"
Blade width - 2.4 cm or 7/8"
blade length - 35 cm or 13 3/4"
Thickness of blade at handle - 1.4 cm or 1/2"
Handle length - 11 cm or 4 3/8"
Width at ganga - 7 cm or 2 1/2"

Your opinion?

[Bill M]

Ok, here is where it gets unusual!

Note size next to a more "common Moro kris"

[VVV]

Congratulations Bill on a rare find!
That's a really strange combo of 3 different sword styles.
Which of course makes it very interesting.
Based on the sorsoran, handle and sheath I would guess Peninsular Malaysia?

Michael

[Lew]

Bill

That is an interesting kris. Seems like the base comes from a broken Sumatran panjang keris with this top part of the blade being that of a European blade?


Lew

[kino]

I saw this Kris last month. It's a beauty. The seller thought it was Moro. It looked Indo/Malaysian to me. Congrats on a good acquisition.

[Newsteel]

Congratulation for having one very rare keris. Very strong peninsular Malaysia influence. As VVV mentioned, it has a close resemblance of Sumatran keris panjang/anak alang or bahari at the sosoran and greneng (base) and no kembang kacang. Could it suggest a 'kapit' blade ??? fusing 2 pieces of blade metal??? Very interesting.

[Bill M]

Thanks for the compliments!

I wonder about the hole through the blade? Just below the VOC. Could this be the hilt of the original blade where a rivet or some attachment pin came though?

[Lew]

Thanks for the compliments!

I wonder about the hole through the blade? Just below the VOC. Could this be the hilt of the original blade where a rivet or some attachment pin came though?

Bill

I'm afraid the hole may have been drilled into the blade for mounting and display purposes :( I have an old African sword with a hole in the blade and hilt where some previous owner used it to mount on a wall.

Still a very nice kris Congrats.

Lew

[Bill M]

Lew,

This is certainly a possibility and I have seen pieces with holes made for hanging the piece on a wall.

However I am curious about the possibility of it being a rivet hole. I am not familiar with VOC blades, so I would like to pose a few questions for those people who have studied them.

How far from the VOC marking is the hilt, usually?

Is it near the hilt or further up the blade? In some swords, like kaskaras, the markings (crescents) are a distance from the handle.

Most others have them near the handle. This is why I am suggesting that the blade and tang could a major part of the blade we see here.

Why are there numbers and a difference in the blade showing a fuller-like depression below the hole?

This could also indicate the numbered part with the "fuller-like depression is part of the original tang, enclosed by a handle, and is now part of the blade.

No big deal either way. I am just curious.

[asomotif]

Congrats Bill !
These pictures are better than the ones you had before.

Also nice to see the size next to a normal sized Moro keris.

The makers of this keris picked only a very small piece of a VOC blade.
VOC swords where not very big/heavy but certainly bigger that what remains within this hybrid keris.

Normally VOC markings are not placed under the tang. So This hole is not a original hole for attaching the hilt.

By the way, this reminds me of a thread by Antonio Cejunior, where he introduced a contemperary Moro / Tanto hybrid knife.
Some forumites where pretty nasty on his creation. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

In this case the maker of this odd Sumatra / Moro / VOC mix is not amongst us. That must be the reason of absent criticism. not ? :o

[DhaDha]

Nothing to add.
Just: COOL.

[David]

Hey Bill, Thanks for showing us yet another fantastic and unusal blade. You really must have me over sometime for tea (which i will unobtrusively slip a very strong sleeping preparation into ;) ).
hmmm....did i just think that or did i actually say it out loud? :D

[Bill M]

The makers of this keris picked only a very small piece of a VOC blade.VOC swords where not very big/heavy but certainly bigger that what remains within this hybrid keris.

Normally VOC markings are not placed under the tang. So This hole is not a original hole for attaching the hilt.


I think that I need to make a picture of what I am asking to better clarify my question.

I am not suggesting the VOC marking was underneath the hilt, but that it was adjacent to, but just above the hilt. In this case the hilt would have covered the hole while also covering the numbers.


By the way, this reminds me of a thread by Antonio Cejunior, where he introduced a contemporary Moro / Tanto hybrid knife.
Some forumites where pretty nasty on his creation. :rolleyes:


Antonio makes some beautiful art. Enough said. And, I like him and his passion for art.


In this case the maker of this odd Sumatra / Moro / VOC mix is not amongst us. That must be the reason of absent criticism. not ? :o


Well, you know he may be lurking somewhere, ready to spring from some darkened niche! Dressed as a Sumatran/Moro, yelling in Dutch!
:rolleyes:

And thanks David. Two ferocious dogs and a lion guard this! :eek:

I am suggesting that the blade started off as either a dagger, or the blade was broken off and a tip reground.

OK I have tried to be more explicit. See picture below where I have (crudely) drawn a black hilt on this (leaving a space to show the location of the hole). Maybe, just maybe, it could have had a rivet????

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

Does anyone have any idea about what was the blade configuration before this was made?

[DaveS]

Bill: Albert an I did see this blade at the Eugine Knife Show. Congratulations on a great find. This is the kind of thing that comes along sometimes once in a collecters liftime. I was going to buy it until i found out the price. I thought it was a little steep so i passed. Kinda sorry i did. Oh well........at least its still in the "family"............Dave.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

Congrats again - this is really a unique combo! While the VOC blade got recycelt, I'd guess that the bahari-like gonjo as well as the Malay keris sundang hilt were crafted for this piece.

The numbers visible on your kris are the last 2 digits of the year - if you ever get access to a specialized lab, I'm fairly confident that the hidden century (1?46) can be revealed!

Actually, the markings of VOC blades are not close to the hilt - the hole is certainly not original to the European blade; I also see no reason for a keris/kris to have this hole. I don't think this is much of a distraction - pieces of history tend to be not in mint condition... ;)

Here's a recent thread showing 2 badik with recycled VOC blades:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6291

I'm attaching the relevant blade pics below:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=29040
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=29039
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=29062

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

2nd try...

(Pics courtesy of Alan and Dominique.)

[Bill M]

Thank you DaveS and Kai. Phillip Tom also saw it.

Dave, in the unlikely event I ever let it go, I will let you know first.

Especially thanks to Kai for the explanation of the VOC markings on the blade. I really have no problem with the hole in the blade, just curiosity.

If only these pieces could talk! What stories!

Kai, what kind of specialized lab would find the missing digit?

[asomotif]

Well, you know he may be lurking somewhere, ready to spring from some darkened niche! Dressed as a Sumatran/Moro, yelling in Dutch!

Well Bill,

I like tribal art and tribal weapons because every object is different and indeed it makes one curious for the past of an object.

In that aspect this is one of the most interesting pieces i have ever seen.

Once more congrats !

Best regards,
Willem

[Battara]

Yes this is a fascinating puppy - almost got it when I saw here in Louisville....

[Bill M]

Yes this is a fascinating puppy - almost got it when I saw here in Louisville....



GOD! This piece has gotten around more than my ex-wife!! :shrug:

But thanks, all. It is an interesting piece. Should I go hang it on a nail? :rolleyes:

[Bill M]

Well Bill,

I like tribal art and tribal weapons because every object is different and indeed it makes one curious for the past of an object.

In that aspect this is one of the most interesting pieces i have ever seen.

Once more congrats !

Best regards,
Willem


Thanks, Willem,

I have two Batak swords I'll be posting soon. I bet that you like at least ONE of them also!

[kai]

Hello Bill,

Should I go hang it on a nail? :rolleyes:
Better use a screw with one of those weird heads - that will help more than the lion to keep it in place... ;) :p

I'm not sure what would be the best approach to reveal the missing digit which is hidden below the forge weld. There are ways to examine wether a steel has hidden flaws and some of these should also work for this task. (I'm assuming that remnants of that digit are still present since the welding seems to be less than perfect which should make this fairly easy in the hands of an expert.)

BTW, the most likely date is 1746. It also could be 1646 but that would be pretty early, indeed. (In the 18th century there were a lot more VOC blades in circulation than in the 17th c.)

I also like those Batak blades - keep them coming! :D

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

GOD! This piece has gotten around more than my ex-wife!! :shrug:
You know Bill, come to think of it....... ;)

[David]

By the way, this reminds me of a thread by Antonio Cejunior, where he introduced a contemperary Moro / Tanto hybrid knife.
Some forumites where pretty nasty on his creation. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
In this case the maker of this odd Sumatra / Moro / VOC mix is not amongst us. That must be the reason of absent criticism. not ? :o
I actually see a great deal of difference between Antonio's hybrid knife and this piece. I don't feel that it was the makers intention here to create a hybrid mixing of cultural currents. He was merely making due, for what ever reason, with materials at hand to create a blade that is for all intensive purposes a traditional kris/keris. He may have used the VOC blade because it was taken from an enemy, because he lacked a good source of iron, because .... well, fill in the blank as you wish, we will never actually know. Even so, Dutch and Indonesian cultures where brought together, for better or for worse and it was inevitable that there would be some sharing of form and ideas. Take a look at the European motifs that were adopted by the Madurese in some of their hilt forms for just one example.
My complaint about Antonio's creation is that it brought together two entirely different cultural forms for no apparent reason. There was no historical logic to it for me. And for the record i don't believe that i or any of the other forumites who didn't care for this arbitrary hybrid expressed that in a "nasty" way. We just didn't care for it while a good number of others did seem to like it. We are all free to express such opinions here i believe. That the creator of Bill's kris is long dead has no issue for me. It seems to me to be a true expression of a historical mixing of cultures created in an acceptable (for me) traditional manner to serve as an authentic ethnographic weapon.

[Lew]

Bill

I have a keris in my collection that has weld in the center of the blade. There is a weld just to left of that blackened patch.The half to the left of the weld has no trace of pamor but to the right I can see a pattern. Will try and get a clearer pic to post. I remember a story about some of the Malay or Indonesian smiths that were forging keris and tombak from harder steel minus the pamor it made the steel tougher and was able to defeat the body armor that the Dutch were using at the time? Anyone here of this lore besides me?

Btw when I draw this keris from it's scabbard it produces a lovely ringing tone like a tuning fork :) .

Lew

[Rick]

The more I look at this piece the more I see a very strange Sumatran keris masquerading as a Moro piece .

If we removed the handle and blade stirrup what would we have ? :shrug:

I'd love to know where this composite blade was forged .

Bill, do we have a blade length ?

[kai]

Hello Rick,

The more I look at this piece the more I see a very strange Sumatran keris masquerading as a Moro piece .
Nobody here suggested it to be a Moro piece (and I doubt the seller would care to distinguish between a Malay keris sundang and a Moro kris even if this were a full-sized blade!).


If we removed the handle and blade stirrup what would we have ? :shrug:
The scabbard as well as the sorsoran could as well be from the Malay Peninsula AFAIK; the VOC blade does suggest a Sumatran origin though.

I'd love to know where this composite blade was forged .
Me too! :)


Bill, do we have a blade length ?
Overall length - 48 cm or 19"
Blade width - 2.4 cm or 7/8"
blade length - 35 cm or 13 3/4"
Thickness of blade at handle - 1.4 cm or 1/2"
Handle length - 11 cm or 4 3/8"
Width at ganga - 7 cm or 2 1/2"

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Hello Kai :)

This really strikes me as the anak alang* type of blade seen in Sumatra .
I'm not seeing much to suggest this is a peninsular blade .

Maybe I should move this thread to the warung . ;)

Rick

*

[kai]

Hello Rick,

This really strikes me as the anak alang* type of blade seen in Sumatra .
I'm not seeing much to suggest this is a peninsular blade .
These are also found on the peninsula. There seem to be minor stylistic differences but I'm not positive that Bill's blade is specifically peninsulan.

BTW, nice blade, Rick! :)


Maybe I should move this thread to the warung . ;)
I was never a fan of separating keris sundang from their cousins - seems like this piece makes an especially good case for moving all keris/kris threads to the Keris Warung Kopi... ;)

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

A difference between Rick's Sumatran blade and Bill's is the characteristic "C" close to the gandik.

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi guys

The problem wth VOC mark blades is that we have to be carefull

because a lot off Indonesian fake it to sell their weapons ,

but also some VOC swords where made in indonesia always difficult to tell

what is real if you don t have the provonance with it .




Ben

[Jazz]

I was never a fan of separating keris sundang from their cousins - seems like this piece makes an especially good case for moving all keris/kris threads to the Keris Warung Kopi...


amen to that

[Bill M]

Ben, you are right about provenance, but if you want to further examine things, provenance can be easily faked. We have all seen fakes even in museums and sometimes those fakes have provenance.

I have seen fakes made from old pictures of artifacts and then the piece claimed to be the same one in the picture.

So the bottom line is to do the best you can and buy what you like at a price you feel is appropriate.

[Rick]

HI Bill, happy Monday . :)

Is this blade scarf welded or has the sorsoran been split and the VOC blade inserted between the halves ?

[Bill M]

This is difficult to say. The obvious part of the weld looks more crude than the rest. Notice how smooth and apparently one-piece the joining of the blade and sosoran as it approaches the handle.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by "scarf welding." If you are suggesting a butt weld, or rabbited end, of the VOC blade, then welding into a notch, I don't think this applies.

It almost looks like it was made this way from the beginning. Or the sosoran could have been split and the blade inserted?

I hope to be able to connect with one of my metallurgical friends and show it to him. Maybe then I can get some better answers. Or perhaps one of the other forumites who saw this could better answer.

[Lew]

Here are a few examples of scarf welded blades.

Lew

[Dajak]

Hi Bill

By provonance I mean that it is documentated where it comes from what date and how he did get it . something like this (not an weapon but well provananched )

it is dated
place collected
and who did collected

Same one off the mandau s that where collected same time that I had wich one off the Forum member has now hanging on hiss wall .

With the real VOC stuff mostly have an provonance because it is an rare find .

I only want to tell watch out when VOC stuff is for sale .

Ben

[Battara]

Going back to an earlier question, is this Moro or Sumatran, I noticed that that repousse looks Indonesian but the okir looks Sulu Moro...... :shrug:

[VVV]

It's interesting that Newsteel and PenangsangII also think this combo is Peninsular Malay.
I hope some of the other Malay keris collectors also share their opinion on this issue.
Below is a hilt of a Peninsular Malay Keris Sundang.
I have also enclosed the sorsoran area of a Peninsular Malay Keris Panjang.
As you can see it doesn't have the "Sumatra C" on the sorsoran. Neither does Bill's blade.
VOC were also active in Peninsular Malaysia. They for instance captured Malacca in 1641,
in alliance with the sultans of Aceh and Johore, after a long campaign.

Michael

[Battara]

Thank you VVV,

not seen many Malay peninsular sundang before....... :shrug:

[VVV]

Here is a drawing from a picture of Sultan Abdullah and chiefs of Perak from 1878.
I have also seen the original picture taken and this drawing is resembling in details.

Michael

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Bill,

A nice unusual item with honest patina to the VOC blade.

I have been following this thread from the start when you told me of this unusual blade you had acquired. I thought it about time to throw my 2 cents worth into the ring.

Have a look at the 9th and 10th images you originally posted and where the hole is, what I see shows indications of metal being present over the top of the original blade once, the shape left on the blade much the same as one would see on a Pata, Khanda or Feranghi.

As European blades did find their way into these weapons, in my eyes, other than the Dutch trade routes, these blades could well have found their way into current existence through the acquisition of Indian weapons from the Indian mainland as Hindu heritage is found all through out the Indonesian Archipelago.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6012&highlight=indian+sword

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5577&highlight=indian+sword

regards

Gav

[Bill M]

Someone recently suggested this might have been made for a boy?

[VVV]

Someone recently suggested this might have been made for a boy?

Why???

I am curious if there is any other reason than the size?
In this case the size shouldn't be relevant as it's made from a keris.

Michael

[Bill M]

I don't really think the kris was made for a boy, just offering a possibility.

The comment was basically about the size. Depends on whether you consider this essentially a Moro piece -- that would usually be larger, or Peninsular, that would normally be this size or even smaller.

I think that some of the diminutive Moro weapons were made smaller for youths.

FI here is a barong with an 11" blade (28cm). Probably made for a youth. Late 1800s, Sulu.

[Bill M]

I may soon have an answer to the date on this piece. As you can see the first two digits are obscured by the sosoran that was welded to the blade. Since the VOC ended in 1800, the date is probably 1746, but if I am very lucky, it could be as old as 1646.

I have a friend who has access to a metallurgical x-ray. He is going to do full xrays on this piece and tell me the date. He is also going to xray the hilt. This will give us more clues as to how it was constructed.

Got to work this into his schedule, so I don't know how soon I can post pictures.

FWIW my friend says he can xray steel more easily than copper. He usually deals with Dong Song culture bronze pieces that can be 800 bc or earlier. These are more difficult to xray.

[Bill M]

Forgot to post outcome of the metallurgical x-ray. Looks like 1646, but fuzzy. Second digit is more like a 6 or an 8 than a 7.

Seems the "R" has to do with Rotterdam if that helps place the age? :shrug:

[Bill M]

An interesting keris or kris or voc or peninsular?

[David]

An interesting keris or kris or voc or peninsular?
Bill, i'm not sure why you resurrected this thread here in Ethno as well as posting it on the keris forum. Some may disagree, but for my money this is a Malay Sundang, not a Moro kris, and despite the use of an old VOC sword tip in its creation it is still a keris. This may not deter people from discussing it here, but it seem much more appropriate to the Keris Forum IMHO.

[Bill M]

Bill, i'm not sure why you resurrected this thread here in Ethno as well as posting it on the keris forum. Some may disagree, but for my money this is a Malay Sundang, not a Moro kris, and despite the use of an old VOC sword tip in its creation it is still a keris. This may not deter people from discussing it here, but it seem much more appropriate to the Keris Forum IMHO.

I did not know how to resurrect to the Keris Forum. So I posted it here and then started over in the Keris Forum.

There are quite a few informative comments in this original post. As I mentioned that I had originally posted in the Ethno Forum because there, at that time as the Keris Forum had not been yet conceived.

I am happy for me to redo into the Keris Forum, or resolve the redundancy while keeping the original post with the 40-something comments.

Please let me know how to do this or please I would be happy if you could do so.

[Bill M]

An Indonesian friend has commented,

This is an alang bahari kapit in sundang /kalis style and hilt,,,
Hybrid ,,, Might be from reteh riau near sumatera where the tempasok, balanging, irranoon and sug settled down after the came after the demise of raja haji in teluk ketapang 1786 ,,,The dhapor is perfict ly ,,,,alang /bahari/bengkinang ,

I don't understand most of the language and someone could interpret this?

[David]

There are quite a few informative comments in this original post. As I mentioned that I had originally posted in the Ethno Forum because there, at that time as the Keris Forum had not been yet conceived.
Well, i could relocate this thread to the keris forum, but that would create a redundancy with the thread you have now stated there. I could also combine the two threads into one or we can simply place a link to the thread in the Keris Forum to this one. I will discuss with Rick what he thinks is best.
Just an FYI though, the Keris Forum had been in place for two years when you posted this in the Ethno Forum. We probably should have switched it to Keris back then, but i think we had had far less discussion on Malay Sundang back then and didn't quite know what to make of this one. ;)

[Bill M]

Well, i could relocate this thread to the keris forum, but that would create a redundancy with the thread you have now stated there. I could also combine the two threads into one or we can simply place a link to the thread in the Keris Forum to this one. I will discuss with Rick what he thinks is best.
Just an FYI though, the Keris Forum had been in place for two years when you posted this in the Ethno Forum. We probably should have switched it to Keris back then, but i think we had had far less discussion on Malay Sundang back then and didn't quite know what to make of this one. ;)


Thank you David, I have tried to bring this post into the Keris. There had not been any comments. I just reposted with a link to the original post.

Would appreciate the last few comments about reposting so as not to confuse.

[David]

Bill, since i am fairly certain that this keris sundang has Malay origins i have transferred this thread to the Keris Forum and deleted your two redundant posts.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

Sorry, I don't know how I managed to miss your posting back in 2010!


Forgot to post outcome of the metallurgical x-ray. Looks like 1646, but fuzzy. Second digit is more like a 6 or an 8 than a 7.

Seems the "R" has to do with Rotterdam if that helps place the age? :shrug:
Could you please try to post scans of the x-ray images? Would like to have a look at the digits as well as search for possible additional marks.

1646 would indeed be quite an early VOC blade and allow for enough time to disperse throughout the archipelago and eventually get recycled as part of this k(e)ris! ;)

The Rotterdam mark won't help to corroborate age since its trade chamber participated in the VOC from the very beginning. It's role increased with time (this won't allow any reliable inferences though).

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Bill,

I don't really think the kris was made for a boy, just offering a possibility.
If you compare the grip area with that of the full-size Moro kris (pic in post #2), there's hardly any difference. Thus, I'd believe this piece was meant for an adult, too.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Bill,

This is an alang bahari kapit in sundang /kalis style and hilt,,,
Hybrid ,,, Might be from reteh riau near sumatera where the tempasok, balanging, irranoon and sug settled down after the came after the demise of raja haji in teluk ketapang 1786 ,,,The dhapor is perfict ly ,,,,alang /bahari/bengkinang ,
Just some quick comments:

This is an alang bahari kapit in sundang /kalis style and hilt
Blade in keris anak alang and keris bahari style with keris sundang fittings (hilt/clamps).


Might be from reteh riau near sumatera where the tempasok, balanging, irranoon and sug settled down
There were Moro settlements/colonies in the Riau archipelago (East of Sumatra).
[sug = Tausug, etc.]


after the demise of raja haji in teluk ketapang 1786
Historical reference: the VOC defeated Raja Haji at Teluk Ketapang in 1786.


The dhapor is perfict ly ,,,,alang /bahari/bengkinang
Keris panjang, keris anak alang, and keris bahari share a common blade style which gets collectively called after the town Bangkinang (traditional production center on Sumatra).

Regards,
Kai

[Bill M]

Hello Bill,


Just some quick comments:


Blade in keris anak alang and keris bahari style with keris sundang fittings (hilt/clamps).



There were Moro settlements/colonies in the Riau archipelago (East of Sumatra).
[sug = Tausug, etc.]



Historical reference: the VOC defeated Raja Haji at Teluk Ketapang in 1786.



Keris panjang, keris anak alang, and keris bahari share a common blade style which gets collectively called after the town Bangkinang (traditional production center on Sumatra).

Regards,
Kai

Kai, thank you very much with your explanations! Always a pleasure!