Random chosen pictures of the Oriental beauties

[wolviex]

Hello friends!

A few days ago, our Forum Friend RSword asked me about posting pictures of Oriental arms from Museum where I work. I admit, I said I'm planing few krises by now, but... how could I refuse. So I went to one of the magazines and I have choose few different Oriental objects, which were at the hand. Hope you will have fun watching them. I won't comment them, because your knowledge is far greater than my about these sort of things. If you will have any questions anyway, I won't promise, but I will try to answer. And I know, some of the pictures are shown in "Jens Nordlune way" ;) - only a part of the object. You can ask me about the pic of the whole thing, but I can't promise to fulfil it, while these are the only pictures I have at the hand right now :). Some of them you may know from catalogues.
RSword - I hope this will fulfil your expectations

Ragards!

part 1:

[wolviex]

part 2:

[tom hyle]

Thanks; worth waiting for the pictures to load. What is inside the animal's mouth on the back side of that axe? We've seen a similar (though I don't think zoomorphic, or more stylized anyway) one where there was an open hollow space there; on this one there seems to be some sort of structure between the jaws.

[wolviex]

Sorry for the size of the pictures and your time you spend on waiting until pictures will upload.

Tom: there's a devil's head in the animal's mouth

[tom hyle]

Interesting; thanks.

[RSWORD]

Michel,

Thank you so much for posting all those beauties. You chose a great variety of items with many unique features. Just a couple to comment on:

1) The first helmet pictured is fantastic. What great workmanship in this parade helmet and illustrates the endless variety one can find from these regions of the world
2) The S Indian enamaled sword is great! The enameling is typical of Lucknow workmanship and the hilt has a typical South Indian flare.
3) The lovely dagger with the gold or gold gilt mounts has a most interesting "lizard" attached. I am wondering what this lizard represents. A most unusual motif for what I am guessing is an Indo-Persian or Indo-Arab knife.
4) I really like the Caucasian saber. The "shamshir" hilted examples are not seen as often and the niello work is lovely. The blade on that one is great!

All the others are fantastic examples and the extra detail in the pictures really gives one a better "feel" than what you find in most pictures in books because they just do not have the space to allow for many close up pictures so one can study all the details.

Thank you for making my morning! :)

[wolviex]

You're welcome Rick :)

Everybody: please, feel free to comment, I would like to know more your opinions, while my knowledge about Orient is still not satisying.

Regards

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wow Wolviex, my dear brother in arms you are a lucky man indeed , I almost pooped in my pants at the sight of these pics , pardon my French ! :eek:
Royal quality pieces and my hat is off to you for your photographic quality standards ! I lost my sense of speech until further notice ...

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Michel,
Thank you for posting these fantastic items! Yes, these photos are very much of Jens' superb quality, I couldn't agree more.

I can offer some observations on some of the items.
1. the dagger seems to correspond with 19th c. Ottoman examples in the style of dress, but is very close to the Indian jambia daggers as well. The 'lizard' most likely represents the salamander, which has been held very important in early symbolism and allegories, especially alchemical. Its association with fire may have similar ties to the phoenix, which also appears on oriental weapons in allegorical symbolism.
2. The niello Persian style hilt is indeed Caucasian from Georgia, while the blade is most likely a Chechen work.These straight sabres resemble those used by Khevsur tribal warriors from the high mountain regions of Georgia, however this example's quality far exceeds those usually found from those enclaves. These high quality Georgian sabres were often presentation pieces from the 19th century used as diplomatic gifts by Georgian princes.
3. The yataghan is a beautiful example, probably late 18th to the early years of the 19th. There is considerable debate about examples with these studded hilts, and they seem to be typically Balkan as this feature seems to correspond with similar studded motif on some Bosnian knives and many of the resources list these as Balkan. This certainly does not rule out Turkish provenance though, as these regions were all Ottoman so it is difficult to say precisely. The coral decor has significance which needs more research, both these and turquoise were important in the motif on many weapons from these regions, and most likely carried talismanic meaning in degree.
4. The enameled sabre is most interesting as it is indeed of S.Indian form with the stylized creatures probably being the makara of Hindu mythology which has associations with the god Varuna, Lord of the Deep. In his fantastic new book "Hindu Arms & Ritual" , Dr. Robert Elgood has noted also a similar creature termed 'yali' which is a beneficient protective demon often placed on weapons (p.100). It is also noted that the turned down quillons are of Deccani influence in the example he shows on the page cited.
What is most interesting is that the enamelled motif is as noted, of Lucknow style, however Lucknow is actually in the northern regions of India in Oudh, SE of the Punjab. On p.156 Dr. Elgood references a clearly south Indian katar from Tanjore of the 17th c. which along with a number of others were enamelled sometime in the late 18th to early 19th c. (a drawing of one of these appears in Pant). Possibly this sabre may have been included along with those during this time? More research !!

Hopefully this observations will be helpful in directing further research and discussion as these are wonderful examples and we can learn a lot from them. Thanks again Michel!!! Nicely done :)

All the best,
Jim

[wolviex]

Friends!

Thank you for your opionions so far, and especially about few words of explanation. Every factual information is at a premium for me. So please, I want more :)

Jens: although you didn't show yourself here I'm curious your opinions as well, especially as the Indian weapons lover and expert. I hope you're not angry I've used your Name here in the figurative sense - in my opinion it only means "the best" and Jim has confirmed it. Your great close-up pictures were the inspiration for some of my pics.

And it seems to me I owe you few words of explanation for this objects:

1. Indian Helmet (Sind?) is the part of whole armour... well, almost whole, because there is only a jacket while trousers are lost. Everybody who posses "Stara bron w Polskich Zbiorach" by Z. Zygulski - go to p. 226-227, item no. 233;

2. Enamelled sabre: all the fittings are on their proper place - one loose shown on the second picture is just cut off the picture :). Please take a look at a leather on sheath with beautiful embossed pattern.

3. Arm-guard - again Z. Zygulski "Stara bron.." p. 210, no. 219;

4. Beautiful parade axe, Persian, with the miniature of Ali and his sons: Hassan and Husein. Ali has the Zulfikar sabre (?) ("Stara bron..." p. 239, no. 246)

5. Caucasian sabre - what I like most, is the very nice silver and gold incrustation (made only on one side) (again "Stara bron..." p. 244, no. 252c)

6. Turkish sabre - phenomenal (IMO) pattern visible on close-up picture: engraved in steel floral design with gilded, a little coarse background. Gold incrustation on the other side is very nice too.

7. Yatagan was published probably in "War and Peace" catalogue ("Wojna i Pokoj" in Polish), but I don't have this book at the hand right now.

8. On this picture we can see: powder-horn, small box probably for an oil or wax, and the powder-measure - all Persian, probably.

Regards!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Pictures 1 & 2 : Chainmal helmet with face mask - NorthWestern Indian, probably Rajput or Sind (if the bird topping the helmet is original it is the Kutch Bhuj area (today`s Pakistan, which I am more and more certain the longer I examine the copper/brass craftsmanship so much in Lahore style) made in Mughal fashion. The mask was used by full clad armored cavalrymen , specialy mounted escorts, paiges and retainers. The helmets inspired by the burkha ( Islamic female veil) are named purdah or purdha. We all know how hard is to accuratelly date Indo-Persian archeological finds due to their extensively long mentained and unchanged style which leaves us at the mercy of apreciating age based on general health and condition of the piece itself which is almost an unsafe thing to base a verdict upon but I take my chance and say 19th century, even though next person that has a solid argument I might not know can make me look like a complete fool in regards to age , however as far as origins and the rest I stand firmly by my affirmations ...


:cool: After comming back from work I would be happy to comment on the rest of your stuff ...

[wolviex]

Radu: I think you're near the truth. In my opinion this helmet was made around 19th century, Zygulski dated it on 18th/19th century.

One remark. When I look on the masks from armours like this one (in other museums like Stibbert in Firenze for example) they all seems to me grotesque, while this one is more solemn. Am I wright or it's just my imagination? Any thoughts?

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wolviex, I was updating my thoughts while you already answered, see if you read it all ... as far as the one on Stibert in Firenze, wasnt that a Tartar one ? They are known for adopting the Indo-Persian helmet styles but with more grotesque forms.

[wolviex]

Radu, as far as I can remember this armour was descripted just as a Sind one, but... maybe description wasn't proper... or, I admit, my memory doesn't source me well. Don't have this catalogue at the hand at the moment, so I will check it later.

Thanks for your commitment !

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Pictures 3 & 4 : Hindustani Kilij from Mysore. The hilt is of vyaghramukhi (leopard shape) and along with the tehnal ( sheath chape) it is completely covered in meenakari work (Indian style metal enameling). 18th century

The triple animal head shape 2+1 and the enamel and the hilt finish are all characteristics that point towards Mysore region but not exclude others.
Rsword mentions well Lucknow as being the heart of meenakari (Hindustani enameling) and it could be possible that enameling itself was executed there but I would not be absolutelly certain just because it remained the largest centre of such craftsmanship.
Although, many pieces of Indian or Mughal arms and armour were worked on different places like Blades from Persia, brasswork from Lahore , hilts from Tanjore or scabbards from Rajput for example but most times a certain fine pattern or a blend could be observed as being characteristic to one region.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Pictures 5 & 6 : 17th – 18th century . Persian / Mughal armguard (known as dastana in India or bazouband in Persia) it has a rarely preserved zirah (chainmail) gauntlet.
The central motif is surya (Sun God) very popular in Indo-Persian armor a motif present not only on the plates of armor but bass-relief ornamented on many war shields (sipar or dhal). Mughal decoration (the blend of Hindu and Islamic is easily observed) is executed in true gold damascening or tah-nishana technique (carve and inlay), much superior to the koftgari (scratch and inlay) technique, more widespread.

In a similar manner to the Sun God motif seen here, other deities faces appear on the war maces where horned faces of devils or bulls are preferred but instead of bas-relief projection they are statuesquely carved making up the bulbous (and therefore the dangerous) part of the war mace.

[wolviex]

Many thanks Radu for your help. I'm curious what informations will you bring next time :)

Armguards seems to be indeed from the end of the 17th century. Prof. Zygulski linking this one with armour, shield and helmet (see "Stara bron...). There is many controversy around this armour.. but this is another story. Chain mail is in great condition, and beautiful interweaved with brass rings what gives a pattern on it, visible also on my pic. Around the edges are inscriptions, not well visible here. While under the armguard is the newest (?), well preserved, violet material. Controversies around this one focused on dating. Some of the scholars claimed it is 19th century, beacause the inscription, as they said, was made in 19th century calligraphy. Prof Zygulski still maintan 17th/18th century theory. Where is the truth, I don't know.

[Rivkin]

2. The niello Persian style hilt is indeed Caucasian from Georgia, while the blade is most likely a Chechen work.These straight sabres resemble those used by Khevsur tribal warriors from the high mountain regions of Georgia, however this example's quality far exceeds those usually found from those enclaves. These high quality Georgian sabres were often presentation pieces from the 19th century used as diplomatic gifts by Georgian princes.


1. I would like to express my deepest appreciation for the posting of these pictures.

2. If I may, the question to Jim - why do you think it's chechen ?

Sincerely yours,

K.Rivkin

[Radu Transylvanicus]

The helmet and the armguards are not part of the same armor, they were made centuries and even more miles apart, Pane Wolviexowsky ! :D Its like putting Colonel Wolodjowsky to fight the Kaiser boys kind of deal :eek: ...

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hello wolviex,

No I am not angry, I am very pleased, with the pictures and with your kind words.
What you show are fantastic pieces - thank you very much, and the photographing is exelent:p - I wish I could do it like you have, but I have problems controlling the light.
I have not been able to write as I have been unable to get on the net since Saturday, and only to day the modem or the telephon central for this area has started to behave, although it is very unstable, so to get an answer to you I will send it now, and comment later when things gets more stable.
Interesting comments Radu and Jim.

Thanks - it is a pleasure to see your pictures.

Jens

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Pictures 7 & 8. Persian parade tabar zin (large war-axe) early Qajar Period (late18th – early 19th century) – Crescent moon shaped blade, with demon head (double dragon as probably a smaller head protrudes out of the larger one’s mouth normally but you can’t see it here) hammer-head . The flag (?! cannot find the vexiologicaly correct therm for the moment) has an Indo-Persian symbol: the surya ( the God Sun motif) in bass relief on one side and a mystical sufi scene Persian miniature painted on the other.
Its is the only exemplar so far I know decorated like this ! Rare stuff and again these Indo-Persian items are not part of the same outfit, however the vanguard (bazouband) and this tabar zin are a very a good pair perfectly fit to keep eachother company in a museum display!
Hey JENS, I would like to hear your opinion specially in this war axe, what do tyou think about the miniature and the age ? Isnt it amazing how on one side you see Persian art using the surya sun face also a classic Rajput emblem and the miniature on the side has much more Ottoman Turk than Mughal in style ...

[wolviex]

Jens: thank you.

Radu: are you going to ruin prof Zygulski work of life ;)
I won't linger discussion about armour I have mentioned before, because of few private reasons and because the pic of it is not here. Anyway, thank you for this remark about "non-compatibility" of this few objects - maybe someday we will continue this further :)

The parade axe was dated by prof Zygulski as 17th/18th century so far. Well, I'm in hard position now Radu. Prof Zygulski is a great scholar and historian, thanks to him we know in Poland so much about weapons and the world heard about us as well. He is also great specialist of Persian art (not only weapons, but art overall) while I admit, some other scholars are arguing sometimes with him, but still he is the one who wrote about Turkish and Persian arts wide monographs since many years. I can't judge his work while this regions of knowledge are still terra nova for me, but I allow the thought that he may be wrong.
So - Radu, please don't stop your work. But please give some notes with acknowledgments, where did you get this informations (if only it isn't secret;) and only if you can) they will be helpful as well. Dear Friends - let's discuss also this great Radu's job - any polemics, or confirms?

Thank you once more
Ragards!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

On the axe there is a good chance it might be as early as late 17th I am flexible on that it is the miniature that made me push it a little further, I walk a fine line when aproximate age on the axe thats exactly why I was asking Jans what he thinks about the age of the axe !
My compliments to prof. Zygulski , so far I dont see too much difference between our ideas, as far as "compatibility" if it is to be a display box labeled as "Classic Indo-Persian arms and armour" they are a perfect match but if you shoot for something like "Mughal warrior set - 18th century" then we need to sit down at a round table and talk about it...
Has anyone decrypted the inscription yet?
As far as the miniature isnt it amazing and beautiful that in Persian art even though Islamic, the painting of human figures was not forbidden but even encouraged in splendid images like this, where even though Imam Ali is a crucial character in the Quran as being the messenger and voice of God his physical image and face are not repudiated but embraced making Persia pretty much the only place where pictorial Muslim iconography exists...

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wolviex, on tabar zain I went ahead and analysed some more Persian axes, it does seem Safavid (17th century) just like I tought too at the beggining too but then there is the miniature which seem to me it was executed later than that !

[Rick]

I can hear Ruel grinding his teeth all the way here in Massachusetts . :(

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Rivkin,
Thanks very much for acknowledging my post and observation on the Georgian sabre. My suggestion that the blade on this sword was most likely Chechen was exactly that, a suggestion. I do appreciate your question which suggests a difference in opinion, and I look forward to further discussion in which views held otherwise would provide an opportunity for us all to learn more on these weapons.

My suggestion was based primarily on viewing examples of sword blades made in Chechna in the 19th century as discussed in the book "Chechen Arms" by Isa Askhabov, 2001, and the examples of blades shown of the so termed 'gurda' and 'ters maymal' blades which typically were made for shashkas. On p.46 in the color plate of mountaineers swords there is what appears to be a Georgian sabre of Persian form hilt and crossguard with chainguard that has a blade with similar channeled fullers. The blade of the ters maymal (wolf) shaskas also has certain similarities to this example, while certainly by no means exact.
This is a high quality sword, as I had noted, and of Georgian form. It is known that although there are obvious religious disparities between the Muslim Chechnya and Orthodox Georgia, there are cultural ties that date to early times. The blades found on many Georgian weapons are known to come from Chechnya, and of course trade markets guaged the motif found on these blades. On p.61 (ibid.) it is noted that "...some Ters Maymals had no wolf upon them because it was against the rule in Muslim religion to depict living creatures". On the blade of our example the decorative motif suggests high quality that complies accordingly.
On p.107, the author describes the aul of Bolshiye Ataghi as one of the main centers for manufacture of arms in Chechnya, and that in the latter 19th century this was virtually run by the Tsarist administration.

Since swords for diplomatic gifts were key in these times in Russia, it would not seem unlikely that a Georgian style sword with a blade that carried a motif similar to highly decorated Islamic motif as seen often on many of the shashkas might have been produced in this region for that purpose.

These were primarily the reasons for my thinking on this and as always I look forward to other opinions and observations, especially if resources and examples are provided in support.

As Wolviex has very astutely observed, statements that make bold declarations and pronouncements should include supported references or evidential detail. Although my note on the blade on this sword was intended only as a plausible suggestion, I should have added the reference.
As always, I look forward to hearing differing opinions, and to the supporting data that will hopefully be included.

Best regards,
Jim

[Radu Transylvanicus]

I can hear Ruel grinding his teeth all the way here in Massachusetts . :(
Et pour qoui, mon cher ami ? Je ne comprend pas ... :o

[Rick]

Documentation , mon ami , documentation .
Chapter and verse and all that old chap . :)

[Ian]

Jim:

Thanks so much for your comments. As I have been reading some of the exchanges here, I echo your concerns about referencing the sources for our comments and opinions. Your forthrightness is an example for all of us.

This is particularly important when we are considering items that have already been the subject of discussion by eminent scholars, as Wolviex has noted. These are not village bolos about which we often toss around opinions lightly -- these are beautiful and significant swords from a highly reputable museum, and they deserve our best efforts at scholarly discussion.

That's not to say that humble bolos are unworthy of serious and scholarly discussion.

Ian.

[Rivkin]

Hello Rivkin

You told me to call you Jim, so if you call me Kirill it's going to be more fair.



My suggestion was based primarily on viewing examples of sword blades made in Chechna in the 19th century as discussed in the book "Chechen Arms" by Isa Askhabov, 2001, and the examples of blades shown of the so termed 'gurda' and 'ters maymal' blades which typically were made for shashkas. On p.46 in the color plate of mountaineers swords there is what appears to be a Georgian sabre of Persian form hilt and crossguard with chainguard that has a blade with similar channeled fullers. The blade of the ters maymal (wolf) shaskas also has certain similarities to this example, while certainly by no means exact.

Unfortunately I did find some of Askhabov's statements on chechen traditions to be nothing but fairy tales, so I've decided (probably incorrectly) to not buy the book, so I unfortunately do not have it.


This is a high quality sword, as I had noted, and of Georgian form. It is known that although there are obvious religious disparities between the Muslim Chechnya and Orthodox Georgia, there are cultural ties that date to early times. The blades found on many Georgian weapons are known to come from Chechnya, and of course trade markets guaged the motif found on these blades. On p.61 (ibid.) it is noted that "...some Ters Maymals had no wolf upon them because it was against the rule in Muslim religion to depict living creatures". On the blade of our example the decorative motif suggests high quality that complies accordingly.
On p.107, the author describes the aul of Bolshiye Ataghi as one of the main centers for manufacture of arms in Chechnya, and that in the latter 19th century this was virtually run by the Tsarist administration.


1. The sword's blade is a little bit too straight to be shashka - it seems to me to be more of a palash (even through there were some extremely straight shashkas, but so straight and broad).

Let's assume it's chechen, than:

a. It's indeed a palash (Nii'sa Tur).
b. Most of chechen palashes were made before 1850, when the production was switched to shashkas (Askhabov ?). Additionally chechen palashes very often do not have cross guards.
c. Chechen palash is also called kaldam - extremely rare weapon, almost always has either a wolf (ters-maimal) or a cross (kaldam) insignia, later models can additionally have gurda (Again, don't have Askhabov on hands, but I think he also writes about it).
d. Assume that actually wolf was avoided due to high islamization. The problem that arises immidiately is - which tribe is the owner ? The problem is that usual owner of palashes are the nighbours of khevsurs - tribe Mjalhista.

Mjalhista were idolaters until very late XIX century (with actual human sacrifices performed here and there). They never backed off from using their idol-symbolics on their weapons, in particular from the Sun (Astvatsaturjan p.166). Shatoi - but they were constantly charged with being Zhukti.
In general all southern, mountain Chechnja was quite pagan at the time, and not on good terms with Shamil and imams.

Bolshyi Atagi - what I can't understand in this case is that there is no "classical" Atagi motiff - very long, almost through the entire blade floral ornament, like Astvatsaturjan page 147. Again Atagi never stopped putting kaldam (cross-like) images on the blades (Astv. 146).

While there are some very straight chechen shashkas (Astv. 142), but they usually don't have a floral motiff like this one (it's better to say I've never seen one), but gurda, kaldam and so on are common. Plus they are not so wide at the hilt, and not so straight (again it's more of a semi-palash).

Next candidate for me would be Dagestan. Straight swords do appear in Dagestan, specifically Lezgin and southern Avar areas, but are not well described (Astv. 145?). However here is the main problem I have with non-georgian origins - it seems that the guard and the blade have motiffs that are very similar and most likely the hand of the same master. However the guard does contain a seven-point star - an intrinsic georgian symbol (sometimes said to symbolize 7 main georgian tribes). I've seen a lot of Dagestani blades with six-point stars, but never with this, very georgian symbol. This and some smaller things may be telling of a georgian origin.

However it does not seem to be a classical khevsurian example, and it seems to be of much more elaborate production. However the possibilities are many, and may be (as you've said) it was made as a gift, and not to actually carry it into khevsuria and start killing people.

I do suspect that in the middle of the image on the blade we will find a signature in arabic, and it well may be that if we read it, it can tell us where the maker was from (it could be a Dagestani, working in Georgia, remembering that at the start of XIX century most of smiths in Georgia were muslim).

However there is one small issue with a gift to Russia theory - russians don't care about georgian symbolics, and stars, they love shashkas (which were a standard weapon in many units), and don't know anything about mountain sabres.


Since swords for diplomatic gifts were key in these times in Russia, it would not seem unlikely that a Georgian style sword with a blade that carried a motif similar to highly decorated Islamic motif as seen often on many of the shashkas might have been produced in this region for that purpose.

These were primarily the reasons for my thinking on this and as always I look forward to other opinions and observations, especially if resources and examples are provided in support.

As Wolviex has very astutely observed, statements that make bold declarations and pronouncements should include supported references or evidential detail. Although my note on the blade on this sword was intended only as a plausible suggestion, I should have added the reference.
As always, I look forward to hearing differing opinions, and to the supporting data that will hopefully be included.

Best regards,
Jim

Ah, references, shmeferences. I always like to see some collectors scorch after you point to something "well, that's most likely something modern"
:))))

[Rivkin]

Are these the Askhabov's examples ?

[Jeff D]

Hi Kirill,

This is the example from Pg 46 of Askhabov's book.

Jeff

[Jeff D]

Are these the Askhabov's examples ?

The middle saber is Askhabov's example on Pg 61 of the Ters-maymal Shashka.

Great discussion keep it going :) .

Jeff

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Wolviex, ;) why do I have a feeling you are too nice to me ?! Please fire away :cool: !!!

[Rivkin]

The middle saber is Askhabov's example on Pg 61 of the Ters-maymal Shashka.

Great discussion keep it going :) .

Jeff

Thanx, but I think I was as always too fast with my conclusions - I've never seen in real life so slightly curved sabre, so I though it's a slightly curved palash. Now I see almost an exact copy, under the name sabre.

Well, part of my logic still stands :), mostly concerning the star and the floral motiff.

Btw interesting mark on the sabre's blade from Askhabov's book - I've seen dozens of like this on chechen blades, but never actually seen any classification of it - mutated gurda ?

It looks like a very wide arrow pointing into a crescent.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Kirill,
I must apologize for addressing you by Rivkin, I always get confused by psuedonyms and other names so very much prefer first names.

My compliments on the outstanding response with specific comments and references! Excellent. This is exactly the kind of discussion I have been referring to. Now we're getting somewhere, and the points you have presented are well taken.
The sabre shown in Michels photos is of Georgian form, as noted, and as you have correctly observed, very much like those used by the Khevsurs in the remote mountain regions. This example is of extremely high presentation quality, and while of Khevsur form, it is of course not Khevsur.
Extremely interesting data on the Mjalhista. While quite familiar with the Khevsurs, I am not with this tribal group, and this is important information to continue research on tribal groups of these regions.

Concerning 'gift swords' I did find some material in translated notes from "Russian Award Weapons", a 1994 book written in Russian, and I had some parts translated. The author notes (p.164,178) that during the early 18th century the Russians adopted the established oriental tradition of presenting swords as gifts. Many of these swords were presented to "..chiefs and sultans" to recognize their loyalty. It is interesting to note that many of these swords were of traditional forms popular in the regions which they were presented and many of the inscriptions were in Arabic as well as Russian. During the early 19th century, there were a number of sabres presented to Georgian princes for thier service in Russias wars with 'non-Christian nations'. These were inscribed in Georgian much in the same manner.
It would seem that the Russian Empire was very much aware of diplomatic protocol and while not specifically concerned with symbolism or tradition of its subordinate countries, it did recognize the importance of gesture and observing such details.

Considering the possibilities of this being a Russian gift intended for Georgian recipient, it seems that the motifs you have mentioned such as the seven point star may have been faithfully reproduced. If this was the case then it would seem we should consider where Russia would have had the weapons made. If it was in Russia, then probably Tula, but then certainly there would be have been markings to that effect. Again, the Chechen aul of Ataghi, which was controlled by the Tsars administration, might be a candidate. Regarding your note on there being no distinct marking for Ataghi, this is quite possibly due to its apparant diversity in producing for broad markets, much as Solingen, where markings and motif were applied according to requirements gauged by these markets.

With the observations you have made, there seems also to be very distinct possibility that this may have been furbished in Tiflis. Tiflis was an extremely important trade center, which certainly maintained production of weapons accordingly, and as you have noted there were certainly a wide range of makers there which would have included not only the Georgians themselves, but Daghestanis, Chechens, Armenians and others.

I think this sword is Georgian and intended to represent a Khevsur straight sabre. The blade is an interesting amalgam of the shashkas we have discussed, and the 'kaldam' . It does appear, as we agree ,of high quality, and likely intended for gift or presentation purposes rather than an actual Khevsur example, probably latter 19th century.

I very much appreciate the detail and information you have responded with, much of which I had not been aware of, and I think we have gained much greater perspective on this sword. Thank you.

Very best regards,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Wolviex, the way you have photographed the weapons, the backgrounds you have chosen, plus the way you have worked with the backgrounds really brings the details/weapons in the foreground – excellent.

The helmet with mask is in a quality very rarely seen. These masks are seldom, when you add the quality of both, its unique. Is it possible that you can also show the mail-plated shirt? I am not very good at guessing age from pictures, but I think I will agree with Dr. Syed Zafar Haider who, in ‘Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India’, writes that it is from Sind late 18th century.

The enamelled shamshir khurasani with the three dragonheads, the Persian azdaha, is very nice to say the least. The pattern on the scabbard is nice, and patterns like this can be seen on south Indian stone sculptures dating from 1600-34 (see Elgood ‘Hindu Arms and Rituals’ page 122 and other pages). From studying the ‘Jeypore Enamels’ by Hendley, I would say the sword is from Jeypore 18th century. But tell me something; is the base metal gold or silver? To know this could help us a bit further.

The armguard is like all of the things shown in a fantastic quality. The sun is clear, but whether it is made in true or false damasceningis hard to tell from the picture, although, should I guess, I would say true damascening. Indo-Persian 18th century. It can be 17th century, but I think 18th is more likely.

Radu, you ask me about the axe, and you shall be warned, that I am no specialist when it comes to Persian weapons, or any other weapons for that matter, I am merely an interested collector, although I admit that I have seen a few Persian weapons, but when you ask, I will try to answer as best I can. It is a magnificent ceremonial axe, which can be seen is ‘Persian and Indo-Persian Arms and Armour of 16th – 19th Century from Polish Collection’ pages 353-55. The end of the ‘hammer’ is a head of some kind, it can easily be seen in the book, and the back of the top, is to the best of my opinion the sun, but when it comes to the other side, I will admit, that I will run for the help of others, with greater knowledge than I have, about the history of the religion – as it is obviously a religious motif, and I have an idea, that I have seen it before, but can’t, at the moment recall where – sorry. Persian late 17th or 18th century. Btw has the axe been ‘born’ with that top, or can it have been put on later?

The rest of the weapons I enjoy seeing, but will refrain to comment.

[tom hyle]

Any thoughts concerning the round-wire butted mail in the close-up? This does not seem like high quality mail meant for use?
The lower 1/2 of that same helmet could almost be an ancient European spangenhelm, decoration and all.

[wolviex]

Jim, Jens, Kirill, Radu and other Friends.

Thank you for yor opinions and my apologies for my inactivity, but my knowledge in this subject let me only feel happiness I have bring you joy and intellectual entertainment with my pictures.

Sorry to confront you my Friends, but you have mentioned few different names as a place of birth for the Indian sabre: Mysore (Radu) and Jeypore (Jens) - are these the same or different places on Earth? I understand we can agree it's South Indian region, anyway?

Do you agree with the Varuma (Jim's words) theory?

Jens: base of the sabre is made of silver, probably, because I haven't got this object before my eyes at the moment, but for sure this is not gold.

About the Sind helmet and armour. I don't have a photo of it, but I scaned it from prof. Zygulski book "Stara broń...".

Jim and Kirill: thank you for outstanding discussion about the sabre, please go on and don't stop. Here is a picture of medalion on the blade, where, as I believe, is something written on it. Unfortunatelly it's very hard visible even with the naked eye. Maybe you'll have any idea about it with your great knowledge. And I'm sorry if it is upside down or something :o

Radu: are you going to stop on 7 & 8 pictures. Come on, don't be shy, I'm waiting for your explanation of other objects ;)

Regards!

PS. If I forget to answer someone's question, please remind me it ;)

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Wolviex,
It is quite obvious to anyone, that this is enamel work of a very high quality, and although there were very able craftsmen in many places in India, there were centres especially known for exquisite work. Some was famous for enamel work on gold, others on silver and others on copper, although copper was used less than the other two metals, due to the quality of the colours. The colours were brighter and showed better when made on Gold or silver – sometimes gilded silver.

The reason for me to say Jeypore is from what I have seen of enamel, but as I have said, I am no expert, so if Radu insists on Mysore, I will have him have the last word.

Jeypore/Jaipur is in Rajputana/Rajasthan, to the NW, and Mysore is to the SW, so it is two places quite apart from one another.

I like the plated mail shirt together with the helmet:).

Jens

[Rivkin]

Thank you very much for all the kind words, but I'm way over my head oftering the appraisal here, but:

a. Assuming that the sword is russian - Zlatoust, Tula independent makers are the possibility. The problem is that the signature is clearly in arabic (amal...), but russians used cyrillic or stamps (solingen stamps for germans working in russia, zlatoust stamps for zlatoust). Additionally their work was mainly designed for cossacks, not georgians, so it would be strange to see them making this sabre.
Additionally the produce of Zlatoust was considering vastly inferior to high end georgian makers until very late in XIX century.

b. Attached is a "khevsurian sabre" from Astvatsaturjan's book - as you can see it's almost idential to "mountain sabre" from Askhabov's book so it's no wonder we have all these problems in identification.

c. There are however some things in the motiff that look strange to me:
First of all - given attached three images of istambul-bik - first one is from this sabre, second one is transcauscasian istambul-bik, and the last one on the right is a dagestanian.

It seems that the one from the sabre is more transcaucasian. Zigzag pattern that is placed on the hilt and guard - it's also more of a georgian thing, like one on the shashka's blade (image attached).

Than as you can see - images on the blade have a mesh-like background - does it look similar to the zigzag pattern on the next attached image ? I don't know it looks somewhat similar to me.

Than 8-fold ovals on the hilt - this is certainly something very georgian - appears also on the khevsurian sabre in Astvatsaturjan p.343 (khevsurian sabre). Mjalhista's sun is much bigger and sometimes somewhat elongated in one direction.

Other elements of the ornament (Muchal-bik etc.) are also analogous to Dagestani elements, but different nevertheless.

I strongly suspect the origin of the blade being Tiflis. It's not even impossible that it was ordered by a wealthy Tsova-Tushin or Khevsur, remembering that khevsurian swords signed "Ferrara" used to cost 25 cows and up, this blade does not seem like being much more expensive than that. Some of mountainers acquired considerable wealth as a result of military actions, so it does not seem improbable to me.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

WOLVIEX, JENS: I envy you for having a copy of that book!
Please excuse my lack of manners and overconfidence but so far here I consider my opinions are close to a certitude but if I go on to the rest of the presented items it would merely be a guess, so I leave Jeff, Jim and even more Rivkin to bring more light at least on the "Caucasian scimitar"...
Pane Wolvieksowky, you bring me light on my "Transylvanian mystery sword" and you can enslave my brain ...
Jens, Why I insist on Mysore is only because I came across pieces from similar to almost identical degree from the Mysore...
Jens, please tell me more about the therm "khurasani", I want to learn as much as I can about the Hindu scimitars ! I used kilij but probably i shouldve gone for the term scimitar, Genus (scimitar) vs. Family (kilij).
Is this particular Indo-Persian type of scimitar a "khurasani" ? I was looking for a descriptive nomenclature for the non-talwar Hindu Scimitars! Is it a Hindu or Persian word (sounds very Persian to me: Isfahan, Teheran, Hamadan, Zahadan, Khurasan :D ); is it lingvisticaly widespread ? Not even one mention on the quintesentially archaic Camron Stone's "Glossary of Arms and Armor" , not a word either on Anthony Tirri's "Islamic weapons - Maghrib to Moghul" which is another book from the Pandora's box :D ... but at least the inside the last one I found two zoomorphic pommelheads: first one, somehow similar (page 283) and a second one, very similar (page 284) pommel head catalogued as makkara (monster) rather then leopard/tiger I assigned. Also Tirri (the author) labels vaguely enough the hilts as "Central Indian" ...
Cheers !

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Radu,

To say from where different enamel works come is not easy, other than some colours were made more successfully in some places than in others, and that some colours were only made in one place, like light blue in Lahore. This said, I am aware of that enamellers minakars did travel, or maybe more correctly, were ‘moved’ to other centres. About this Hendley writes in ‘Jeypore Enamels’: ‘Maharaja Man Singh (1590-1615) is stated to have brought five Sikh enamel workers from Lahore, and the fact that the descendants of these men still produce their colours (1886) from that town to carry on the trade of there forefathers confirms that tradition’. So someone working in the Delhi style suddenly found himself working somewhere else – but I doubt that he changed his style, as this was part of his family tradition, learned from father to son for many generations. This ‘moving’ around would lead to a mixture of styles in the different centres, the newer the enamelled items are, the bigger the mixture would become in the different centres, so I have no problem with Mysore.

Here is what T.H.Hendley writes, in ‘Ulwar and its Art Treasurers’, about the sword bought in Bernares in 1854, and since then in the Ulwar armoury: ‘Plate XXXIV. Sword. Shamsher khurasani. Curved steel blade, with silver enamelled sword hilt’. He then goes on describing the sword in detail. He does not explain the word khurasani, but as the word shamsher refers to the type of blade, the word khurasani must, I think, refer to the type of hilt. Could be that this kind of hilts origin from Khorasan/Khurasan where Merv/Marv is, NW of Afghanistan; on, or close to the Silk Road – I don’t know at the moment.

The Makkara is the Indian word for this monster used widely in the SEA area; it is even used on old Tibetan and Nepalese bronze sculptures, as part of their religious symbolism, and it most likely goes back to ancient time.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Pictures 16 & 17. - This second hekmet seems like an rare, interesting item: its not the flutted tear shape Ottoman chichak and it is not the spiked dome ("half egg") Indo-Persian khula-khud , it seems to be Timurid Persian , i see Mongol and I see Persian in it, I also think it goes 18th century and beyond.
One could atribute it to Ottomans as well but unless one of us reads the inscription (Persian, Turkish, Arabic?) so far I'll stick with the upper mentioned story.
I am sure Wolviex has already gotten the answer ... Jens ?

[Radu Transylvanicus]

On the Caucasian scimitar (I am completely in a new land to me here so have mercy !) is there a chance it is an Azeri sword, the niello was a much exported trade Georgia to Azerbaijan and viceversa so wouldnt make perfect sense to consider Azeri too since the Muslim artwork can be observed !?(Armenia (including Khevsur) and Georgia Orthodox , Daghestan Muslim ...IMHO...)) Wouldnt you say ?

[Jens Nordlunde]

All right Radu, I don’t know!

I have however a few comments to the helmet. I don’t think it looked like that from the start, but if you remove the top ‘hat’, and the decorations (are they Niello?) you will see what the original helmet looked like, and I think it is old, but I wont try to guess how old. Later some creative person found the helmet too good to be melted down, so he modernized it, and I think I can agree that this could have been in late 18th or in 19th century.

[tom hyle]

No commentary on the mail? High quality mail is rivetted or welded. The links are often of flat or rectangular section; I'm not sure why, other than to facilitate rivetting (sometimes only the ends of the links are flattened). Interesting in combination with the lavishness of the decorative work; the low quality often noted on things meant for show rather than use? These mail coifs are of often questioned usefulness and are often spoken of as decorative, but many I've seen are of proper battle mail, and while it won't save your skull from cracking, it's still of some help....

[wolviex]

Tom: you are absolutely right about mail used in the helmet from the 16 & 17 pictures. The rings, which are joining the rest of the mail with the helmet, aren't original. Take a closer look at it, and you will see, that other rings are just as they should be, and they are much different from these above them. I don't know the story, but most probably is, this part of mailing was destroyed, and someone (I suppose just after the II WW) made a quick repair. It should be done better, but the time was very hard in Poland in those days, and many repairings and restorations were made cursorily. If you take a very close look you will probably see that they aren't attached properly.

It's a shame I still don't have a book "Uzbrojenie Tatarów" (Tartars armament) by Mr. Gutowski, so I can't be sure, but if my memory serves me well, it is described as Tartar's helmet from the 19th century...as far as I remember. :)

Regards!

[tom hyle]

Right you are. Thanks.

[RSWORD]

Hi Radu,

To say from where different enamel works come is not easy, other than some colours were made more successfully in some places than in others, and that some colours were only made in one place, like light blue in Lahore. This said, I am aware of that enamellers minakars did travel, or maybe more correctly, were ‘moved’ to other centres. About this Hendley writes in ‘Jeypore Enamels’: ‘Maharaja Man Singh (1590-1615) is stated to have brought five Sikh enamel workers from Lahore, and the fact that the descendants of these men still produce their colours (1886) from that town to carry on the trade of there forefathers confirms that tradition’. So someone working in the Delhi style suddenly found himself working somewhere else – but I doubt that he changed his style, as this was part of his family tradition, learned from father to son for many generations. This ‘moving’ around would lead to a mixture of styles in the different centres, the newer the enamelled items are, the bigger the mixture would become in the different centres, so I have no problem with Mysore.

Here is what T.H.Hendley writes, in ‘Ulwar and its Art Treasurers’, about the sword bought in Bernares in 1854, and since then in the Ulwar armoury: ‘Plate XXXIV. Sword. Shamsher khurasani. Curved steel blade, with silver enamelled sword hilt’. He then goes on describing the sword in detail. He does not explain the word khurasani, but as the word shamsher refers to the type of blade, the word khurasani must, I think, refer to the type of hilt. Could be that this kind of hilts origin from Khorasan/Khurasan where Merv/Marv is, NW of Afghanistan; on, or close to the Silk Road – I don’t know at the moment.

The Makkara is the Indian word for this monster used widely in the SEA area; it is even used on old Tibetan and Nepalese bronze sculptures, as part of their religious symbolism, and it most likely goes back to ancient time.

Could it be that Khurasani refers to the damascus in the blade. Blades are often refered to as Khora Khorasan Khora Taban etc and perhaps Khurasani refers to Khorasan damascus steel. If the blade mentioned is a Persian import and of the black Persian watering then this could be a possibility.

[Radu Transylvanicus]

... seems to be Timurid Persian , I see Mongol and I see Persian in it, I also think it goes 18th century and beyond.

Is that the Timurid/Mongol I saw on it ? It had mainly to do with shape , I paid no detail attention to the chainmail, just considered is there. The conical spiked helmet, not domed nor fluted nor tear shaped and the "yin-yang" like mystical symbol pointed more than anything towards that consideration .
Why so early (18th century and beyond ) is because vaguely I recall similar shaped Mongolic (hence Tartar...) helmets anywhehre between 15th and beggining of 18th century, in Timurid & Safavid Persia or Mughul Empire.
The best source to see this helmets would be Indo-Persian miniatures and I will try to find some representative ones... Does anyone own ilustrations from the Tarikh-i-Khandana-i-Timuria manuscript or similar, that might help me spot some light on my theory !
I will not opose at all to the very late theory (19th century) but I am trying my luck to research to push it further as I "have a feeling" (there you go, I said it !!!) its earliear but please consider that I am not considering the chainmail for the moment...
How about the inscription, anyone dare ?

[wolviex]

Thanks to our friend BI, who send me a few scans from mentioned book by mr Gutowski, I can post a few facts in here.

First of all, the inscription, which is visible on the helmet, is not deciphered yet - but, on one of the round field we can see a date "1219" which is 1804 year in Europe (not visible on my pics). That, I think, should convince us all it is 18/19th century piece, as I and Jens have guessed before.

About Tartar's helmet. Again thanks to BI, there is a wide explanation about evolution of these helmets in Mr Gutowski's book. Let me quote for you few sentences:


Jacek Gutowski, Uzbrojenie Tatarow, T. I, Warszawa 1997:

"(...) From the Middle Ages to the 17th cent. the Tartars always used helmets identical in terms of function. They were constructed of somewhat shallow skull-caps, protecting the upper part of the head and flaps protecting the back of and sides of the neck and cheeks. (...) From the end of the 15th cent., due to Caucasian-Turkish influences, the misiurka began to be used - a type of helmet with the skull-cap reduced to a slightly vaulted plate. Misiurka was the most commonly-used helmets of the end of the 16th - end of the 18th cent. Other types did not however disappear entirely. In luxury, richly-decorated helmets, skull caps of early conical and spherical-conical forms appear as late as the end of the 17th cent. In anachronic helmets from the north Caucasus they lasted even to the end of the 18th cent [here is the reference to helmet shown here, then author is describing the way of dating helmets and their ornaments]"

Regards to BI!

[Rivkin]

About Tartar's helmet. Again thanks to BI, there is a wide explanation about evolution of these helmets in Mr Gutowski's book. Let me quote for you few sentences:


Jacek Gutowski, Uzbrojenie Tatarow, T. I, Warszawa 1997:

"(...) From the Middle Ages to the 17th cent. the Tartars always used helmets identical in terms of function. They were constructed of somewhat shallow skull-caps, protecting the upper part of the head and flaps protecting the back of and sides of the neck and cheeks. (...) From the end of the 15th cent., due to Caucasian-Turkish influences, the misiurka began to be used - a type of helmet with the skull-cap reduced to a slightly vaulted plate. Misiurka was the most commonly-used helmets of the end of the 16th - end of the 18th cent. Other types did not however disappear entirely. In luxury, richly-decorated helmets, skull caps of early conical and spherical-conical forms appear as late as the end of the 17th cent. In anachronic helmets from the north Caucasus they lasted even to the end of the 18th cent [here is the reference to helmet shown here, then author is describing the way of dating helmets and their ornaments]"

I don't really know anything about armor, but:

1. To me it looks like a northern caucasian helmet - AStvatsaturjan 104p. shows fully armored Circassian (year 1830).
2. "Tatar" would suggest Nogai or Kumyk nations, however:
3. Three curling something :) is one of the most popular Osethian symbols. Kumyks have something similar, but their three curling something usually has animals - hypogryths and so on.

So - is it Osethian ?

[Rivkin]

On the Caucasian scimitar (I am completely in a new land to me here so have mercy !) is there a chance it is an Azeri sword, the niello was a much exported trade Georgia to Azerbaijan and viceversa so wouldnt make perfect sense to consider Azeri too since the Muslim artwork can be observed !?(Armenia (including Khevsur) and Georgia Orthodox , Daghestan Muslim ...IMHO...)) Wouldnt you say ?

Thank you very much for your vote of confidence, although I think that Ariel or Jim would be way more knowledgable on this issue.

Concerning Azerbajan, the weapons' production in this country is greatly underappreciated for two reasons:
a. It lacked big production centers, therefore statistically it's much more likely to have something produced in Dagestan or Georgia rather than Azerbajan.
b. Most of the production was not performed by azeris, moreover there are two distinct possibilities: northern production - lezgins (and therefore the weapons produced are classified as produced in Dagestan), southern production - armenians (and therefore the weapons are classified as Transcaucasian/armenian).

Concerning the motiff - before 1850 most of smiths in Tiflis were muslims. The motiff is similar to typical Dagestani motiff, but in my opinion contains certain important changes that make it more likely to be produced somewhere to the south, and georgia makes a logical choise.

Concerning christianity - it's very hard to classify Khevsurs, Tsova-Tushin and other mountainous tribes as christian. Pagano-christian, or formally christian would be a better representation. Armenia, just like most of georgian tribes, is more like our understanding of what "christian" means.

[B.I]

back to the helmet, a similar piece in the hermitage. also, to reinforce the dating, this one dates to the same period (but a few years younger). the overall shape does indeed recall an earlier period of ottoman influence, but the shape is also a development of the earlier (and shallower) tartar helmets, as is the decoration.
thanks again to michal for this post and the images from his museum.
i think it down to mr. nordlunde to step onto the stage and provide a translation.

[Rivkin]

It says that the helmet is Circassian. Well, all northern Caucasus helmets (osethian, circassian etc.) seem similar to each other (at least to such an ignoramus as me).

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi B.I., Here is the translation. Although it must have been written after the exhibition in Poland in 1978, it is written in strange Danish.

The helmet belowe comes from the same museum, and the text says, short as it is: Ancient Mogul helmet.

86. Helmet. Circassian, 1785-86. Made by Ali, son of Khadzji Baki. Steel, silver, textile, braid; gilding, Niello, engraving. Height 20.2; diameter 17.1. Origin: prior to 1926 – Marble Palace(?), Leningrad; after 1926 – Eremitage. Inv. No. 3331. Exhibited: Poland, 1978. Bibliography: Bron Kaukazu, page 20, no 5.

The form of the helmet reproduces the types of the Middle Age and the decorations are made in Circassian style. Among the inscriptions which are part of the ornamental composition, the maker Ali, son of Hadzji Baki, is mentioned twice, year 1200 H. (1785-86) and the owner Inajat Krim Girej Bek. It is well known that this type of helmets were part of the parade equipment of the Mountain Lifeguard Squadron around 1840.

[Rivkin]

86. Helmet. Circassian, 1785-86. Made by Ali, son of Khadzji Baki. Steel, silver, textile, braid; gilding, Niello, engraving. Height 20.2; diameter 17.1. Origin: prior to 1926 – Marble Palace(?), Leningrad; after 1926 – Eremitage. Inv. No. 3331. Exhibited: Poland, 1978. Bibliography: Bron Kaukazu, page 20, no 5.

It's correct - Marble Palace, after 1926 - Hermitage.

Very interesting is attributing the ownership to Inajat Krim Girej Bek.
Does "Krim Girej Bek" mean "Girey, bek of Crimea" ? Then it's most likely that the owner was a crimean tatar (there were crimean circassians, but Girey is a tatar ruling family). The production of helmet then is most likely Kabarda - crimean khans used to send their children to Kabarda to study (atalychestvo).

[Rivkin]

I have to make a small correction - recently I've read some materials on tamga (coat of arms) of circassian clans. It seems that tremendous number of such clans beared tamga symbolizing their descent - typical ingush, osethian, georgian symbols are in no way can be considered as rare for circassian tamgas. Therefore I have to say that it's probably not enough to see an osethian symbol on the above mentioned helmet to attribute it as osethian - it can still be circassian, just bearing a tamge with an "osethian-like" symbol.

Btw I've just realized the name of this symbol - it's a threefoil swastika, so it's not that uncommon with other caucasian nations, but still originally it's more of an osethian one.

To those who love caucasian-celtic connections it's also known as celtic spiral.

[Rivkin]

I stand corrected - while Khan-Girey family descents from crimean Gireys, they were Bzhedug (circassian tribe) princes; I guess it may that son or grandson of this Girey, Khan Girey born in 1808 was a famous circassian writer/philosopher.