Bali togogan (figural) hilts

[lemmythesmith]

Hi everyone, I recently purchased the new keris book by Jean Greffioz and I'm interested in finding out more about the Balinese "togogan" or figural hilts, the hilt in the shape of a ram or goat headed demon I found paticularly interesting-research online indicates he might be an incarnation of Barong. :shrug: Does anybody have hilts/pictures they would be willing to share of the less common togogan types?

[David]

Here's a link to what comes up in a search for "Bali hilts".
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search.php?searchid=9227718
I am sure you will fing many of the togonan variety in these 3 pages of threads. :)

[Gavin Nugent]

I clicked on the link and it says no matches?

Gav

[David]

hmm...they were there right after my posting. :shrug:
Well, just put "Bali hilt" into the search and you will get the same list i did originally. The search feature of this forum is an under used treasure trove of information. :)

[Battara]

Don't know if this helps but here is the ivory hilt of my one and only Bali keris - the form is Ravana from the Ramayana (I did the gold work).

[A. G. Maisey]

Things are pretty quiet here in the Warung lately, so I thought I'd try to start a new game:-

Name the Togog:-

[David]

O.K. i'll play just to show off my ignorance. :o
Top left looks like Ganesha to me and the top right could be Hanuman (i can't see if he has a tail or not.
Bottom left looks like what i believe is often called Bayu. The bottom right i am not sure. It looks like it has fangs so i am guessing it is a demon of some sort. :shrug:
Next.....? :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep, Ganesha is pretty recognisable.

Here's a couple more pics of Hanuman.

As for our other two little mates, I'm inclined to wait a while and see if anybody else has some opinions.

[David]

hmmm....well 2 out of 4 ain't bad. ;) :)
Love the Hanuman BTW.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep, H.A. Numan is a bit nice. Had a lot of these over the years, but this fellow is probably the nicest. Material is buffalo horn.

[brekele]

The Hilt #3 it seem Betare Guru in my opinion.

[BluErf]

Could hilt number 4 be.... Ravana? :p The headdress is a representation of the other 9 heads?

Btw, there's this other hilt which I've seen in recent times - that of a long-bearded old man. I don't have pics, but does any one know what that hilt represents?

[Rick]

Could hilt number 4 be.... Ravana? :p The headdress is a representation of the other 9 heads?

Btw, there's this other hilt which I've seen in recent times - that of a long-bearded old man. I don't have pics, but does any one know what that hilt represents?

Could this be a Maduran interpretation of the hilt form you mention Kai Wee ?

[Battara]

If I am counting right, I think #4 is Bayu. The post after that is Hanuman.

[David]

If I am counting right, I think #4 is Bayu. The post after that is Hanuman.
hmmm...well, interestingly enough their positions have moved since i first looked at them. Might be because i am on a different computer right now. Anyway Jose, anyway you can be more specific about which one you mean?
:)

[A. G. Maisey]

Let's clarify things a bit.

I failed to number these pics when I put them up.

Sorry.

Let's make Ganesha # 1 and the then go clockwise:- Hanuman # 2, -----, -----.

Kai Wee, what is origin and period of this long bearded man handle?

[VVV]

Maybe Kai-Wee's long-bearded old (Chinese?) man is this hilt?
It looks like he is holding a vajra.

Michael

[David]

Let's clarify things a bit.

I failed to number these pics when I put them up.

Sorry.

Let's make Ganesha # 1 and the then go clockwise:- Hanuman # 2, -----, -----
Sorry Alan, that still doesn't work. Depending on how big i open up my screen the hilts change position. I can get 2 on top and 2 on bottom or 3 on top and 1 on bottom (in these 2 variations the last 2 hilts switch positions) My screen at work is very larger and i can even get them to go straight across in one row when opened all the way.
One of these last 2 is golder (in the photo) and has mostly rubies (lets call this one "ruby"). The other has better detail and about half sapphire and half rubies (let's call this one "sapphire").
:shrug:

[David]

It looks like he is holding a vajra.
Michael, that's an awesome hilt. I think that might be a bell with the vajra. It looks like a bell coming down from his hand. These are often used in conjunction with each other.

[VVV]

David,

That seems probable as it's held in the left hand. Left and the bell represents the female principle in Tantric Buddhism/Vajrayana. Right hand and the vajra the male principle. Unfortunately the right hand is missing on this hilt.

Michael

[BluErf]

Maybe Kai-Wee's long-bearded old (Chinese?) man is this hilt?
It looks like he is holding a vajra.

Michael

Bingo! This is the one I'm referring to. Thanks Michael. :)

[Battara]

Ok the gold and ruby hilt I think is Bayu (carring a "fan") and the black and silver one I think is Hanuman....

[David]

Ok the gold and ruby hilt I think is Bayu (carring a "fan") and the black and silver one I think is Hanuman....
Thanks for clarifying Jose. The reason why i do not believe that "ruby" is Bayu is because this hilt seems to have fangs implying that it is of a demonic nature. I might be mistaken, but i do not think that Bayu would have fangs.
The sapphire & ruby one also carries the fan (or is it a mirror) and i thought that could be Bayu. It seems to be a popular ID for this style of hilt, but it could be a misinterpretation. :shrug:

[Jussi M.]

I have no clue what I am looking at but I do know I like what I see :p

[VVV]

According to Kerner (pict 142-143 in the A4 book) the hilt I showed above is Agastya. In the, missing, right hand he holds a vessel with holy water and in the left a bell according to Kerner.
Agastya was a Shaiva-hermit with his own cult. He has a statue in for instance the Candi Singhasari, next to Durga, and probably represents both Shiva and a royal ancestor in a nocturnal magic ancestor cult.

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Doubly sorry.

I didn't know that the arrangement of pics varied with the screen, rather than the source. I'll do better next time.

I think a lot of people might have heard of Bayu. Does anybody know the mainstream name of Bayu?

Anybody know if he's got any relatives shown in this thread?

Then we might have a pic of Agastya. Anybody know how Agastya might be associated with with some of the other beings shown here?

[BluErf]

In the, missing, right hand he holds a vessel with holy water and in the left a bell according to Kerner.
l

The left hand looks like it is holding a vajra. I don't know.

[David]

The left hand looks like it is holding a vajra. I don't know.
Well, with my own bell and vajre set the top of the bell handle has a vajre termination like this set. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

The togog that Michael has presented to us, and which has been tentatively identified as Agastya is causing me to think a little.

Firstly, nobody I know in Bali has identified this figure, when it appears as a hilt motif, as Agastya, it is usually identified as a priest ( pedanda), a generic identification, rather than a specific one.

Secondly the attributes of Agastya are the water jar and the trisula, so to see him with a bell and something else does not really fit.

Thirdly, in Jawa/Bali culture, Agastya has become Bhatara Guru, now, there is some confusion as to exactly who Bhatara Guru is in the Jawa/Bali pantheon. The mainstream of thought seems to equate him to Agastya, but others would have him as a form of Siwa. In some old texts, Bhatara Guru is used to refer to the Supreme Being, however, in Jawanese Siwaitic tradition Bhatara Guru was the first to introduce the people of Jawa to Siwa.

Bhatara Guru is usually depicted as a pot bellied man with a beard and a calm face.

I feel that we need to question whether this figure that Michael has presented to us can be identified as Agastya or Bhatara Guru. I would feel more comfortable with giving just the generic identification that Balinese people usually give.

[VVV]

The togog that Michael has presented to us, and which has been tentatively identified as Agastya is causing me to think a little.

Thanks for your comments. I haven't reflected so much on Agastya before on Java except that I have noticed that he in some temples seems to represent Bhatara Guru (= both Shiva and someone higher than Shiva).

Firstly, nobody I know in Bali has identified this figure, when it appears as a hilt motif, as Agastya, it is usually identified as a priest ( pedanda), a generic identification, rather than a specific one.

Actually I haven't noticed earlier, before Kai Wee asked about it, that Kerner so clearly identified this hilt as Agastya. Maybe an example of interpretating something out of the culture?
Or maybe he knows something more about this hilt that isn't in his book?

Secondly the attributes of Agastya are the water jar and the trisula, so to see him with a bell and something else does not really fit.

If it's a vajra it could maybe fit with Shiva as the vajra sometimes also represents Shiva (not only Indra). BUT Agastya traditionally holds the vessel with water in his left (!), not his right hand.

Thirdly, in Jawa/Bali culture, Agastya has become Bhatara Guru, now, there is some confusion as to exactly who Bhatara Guru is in the Jawa/Bali pantheon. The mainstream of thought seems to equate him to Agastya, but others would have him as a form of Siwa. In some old texts, Bhatara Guru is used to refer to the Supreme Being, however, in Jawanese Siwaitic tradition Bhatara Guru was the first to introduce the people of Jawa to Siwa.

Bhatara Guru is usually depicted as a pot bellied man with a beard and a calm face.

Santoso, in Sutasoma: A Study in Javanese Wajrayana, explains Bhatara Guru as both Shiva, but in a more mighty position than in India, as well as a pre-Hindu high god (who also was titled the Lord of the Mountain). Below Bhatara Guru are his sons Brahma, Vishnu and Ishwara. Ishwara is another name for Shiva. According to Santoso this son is closer to the Indian Shiva in power than Bhatara Guru.

I feel that we need to question whether this figure that Michael has presented to us can be identified as Agastya or Bhatara Guru. I would feel more comfortable with giving just the generic identification that Balinese people usually give.

Until we find out if Kerner has some additional reasons for naming it Agastya I agree. Both based on the ascetics vessel held in the wrong hand and I also miss the characteristic pot-belly and his dwarfish stature.

Michael

PS Someone who on Jawa however often is shown with a vajra, as well sharing temples with Shiva, is the Bodhisatva Akshobya.
Alan, how well known was/is he on Bali?
(Just another wild idea from someone outside the culture) ;)

[A. G. Maisey]

Michael, I genuinely like Martin Kerner. Not only is he a thorough gentleman, but he is a very, very good statistician.

Regrettably some of his social and cultural ideas on Jawa and Bali are just a wee bit off to one side.

I've been trying for a very long time to come to terms with Bhatara Guru. His position in the pantheon seems to change from era to era and at the present time, from person to person, depending on who you're talking to. Maybe even from day to day, depending on how a person is feeling on the day.

I think that in terms of Jawa/Bali, I'm about at the position where Bhatara Guru = Bhatara Guru, and I'm not really prepared to debate with anybody whether Bhatara Guru can be equated with any other personage in the mainstream. In my previous post I mentioned the possibilities, but maybe in Jawa, Bhatara Guru was initially created from a melding of ideas and characters, both actual and from the Hindu mainstream. Maybe he really is a unique character who can be associated with mainstream characters, but is not exactly the same as any mainstream character

One of the problems with Balinese togogans, whether keris hilts, or other statues, is that very often the figure will be changed by the artist to suit his own whim, and it can mean exactly what the artist wants it to mean. The standard mainstream forms do not necessarily apply, and maybe a figure that looks like it should be one character, is intended by the artist to be some other character. Some are readily recognisable, but to try to name each and every one can be a real trap for young players. Additionally, not all the forms are necessarily related to the Hindu pantheon, but can be indigenous Balinese characters.

I've currently got about 20 or so Bali handles in a box ready to photograph. When I get a bit of time and a decent day, I'll do the lot and put them up here a couple at a time. I think we might have a bit of fun with some of these.

[VVV]

Alan,
It seems like your description of different opinions on Bhatara Guru is typical of syncretism.
Btw, do you know if Akshobya is/was well-known on Bali too?

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, true, and the syncretic nature of Javanese culture and society is well reported. At a basic level Bali is an extension of Jawa, so it is natural that syncetism should also be an element there, as well.

The Buddhist element in Jawanese society was most prevalent in the period through to around 1000AD, and again in the East Jawa period. I've never come across any references to Akshobya in Bali, but that doesn't mean much, as I have not studied Buddhism in Bali at all.As a prominent point of reference I can say that I have not encountered Akshobya there. On the other hand, Bhatara Guru is hiding behind every corner. There are those who want make of every figure that bears one of his characteristics, a representation of Bhatara Guru--- and if these people can relate Bhatara Guru to the figure, who is to say they are wrong --- insofar as their own belief is concerned?

[VVV]

Thanks Alan,

Maybe it's time for you to tell us more about the hilts you originally posted (Bayu and [Ravana???])?

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I'd back Bayu and Rawana.

But how about my relationships question?

Study of this sort of thing is not just about hanging names---either right or wrong---on things.

Nobody interested enough to draw a few connecting lines?

[VVV]

Yeah, I'd back Bayu and Rawana.

But how about my relationships question?

Study of this sort of thing is not just about hanging names---either right or wrong---on things.

Nobody interested enough to draw a few connecting lines?

OK, I will give it a try.
Here are the relationships of the hilts according to my present understanding (I look forward to learn some more on this subject):

Hanuman is the son of Bayu, which explains why he is so good at big leaps (like across the sea all the way from India to Lanka).
Another famous son of Bayu is Bhima. In this way Bayu is part of both Ramayana and Mahabharata through his sons.

Ravana was the rakshasa king of Lanka that kidnapped Sita, Rama's wife.
In a way Ravana could be "related" to Shiva as a rakshasa king.

Ganesha is one of Shiva's "indirect" sons.

Bayu is also known as the purifier and frees from misfortunes.
On Bali he is known as Bhatara Bayu. In this local role he is the bringer of health and prosperity as well as a protector against evil (= Ravana). He is also known among mystics as Prabhu Guru Bayu (the Great Spiritual Teacher).
Another famous spiritual teacher is Bhatara Ganesha. He also gives success in undertakings, overcomes obstacles and is the god of wisdom ...

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep, Bayu (Vayu) is supposedly Hanuman's father.

Hanuman fought Rawana.

Rawana was king of the raksasas and he lived in Langka.

Langka was originally the summit of Mount Meru, but Bayu broke it off, threw it into the sea, where it became Langka.

Ganesha might have been Siwa's son, from Parvati, but some traditions have him as the son of only Parvati.Michael has mentioned the Maha-bharata;Ganesha wrote the Maha-bharata from the dictation of Vyasa.

We mentioned Agastya too. Whilst the togog might or might not be Agastya, it is worthwhile knowing that Agastya was able to control the raksasas.

All these strange names tie together, and when you know the relationships, the whole thing starts to make a little bit of sense.

[A. G. Maisey]

I've had time to do photos of some of my Bali togogs, so here's another two for a few guesses.

Silver Boy and Bony Boy.

Who do you reckon these blokes might be?

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Alan, love the hilts! Is silver boy Bima? He has the "kuku pancanaka" long thumbnails which I believe are a characteristic of Bima. On bony boy I have no idea.....scary looking dude though!

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I think a good guess for the silver one is Bima, but I really don't know what the other bloke is supposed to be. There's a whole heap of various nasties in Balinese folk lore, my guess is he's one of those.

[Rick]

Interesting, the 'slot' on boney's belly; a little too deep to be a fold of fat . :confused:

I have seen an ivory togo of a little boy in nearly the same pose .
I think we've all seen this particular example at some point or other; I just can't find a picture of the little fella . :shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, you're right Rick. Its not a fat fold, its got another ridge inside it, and it curls up a bit at the ends. My guess is that it refers to some feature of the original nasty. Off the top of my head I don't know what this might be, but I'll have a look in a couple of books and see if I can find some character whose belly opens up. Probably one there somewhere.

[Rick]

Here's another fellow for identification . :confused:
What is he holding ?
There is a bit of reflective glass set in his headress .

Polychrome over wood; humble work but I like it . :)

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Rick, this guy is holding a similar thing, he's down as Barong or a temple guardian.....looks like it's a torch he's got hold of.

[Rick]

True they both hold similar objects but the aspect of each figure is very different .
The Togo seems to show downcast eyes and a serene appearance as opposed to the aggresive stance and bared fangs of the statue; this is a aspect often given the 'Good Guys' in the Wayang .
I don't think this fellow is a demon . :confused:

[ganjawulung]

Hi Rick, this guy is holding a similar thing, he's down as Barong or a temple guardian.....looks like it's a torch he's got hold of.

This fellow is holding a "gada" (pls spell it - gaw-daw) or "godo". Bima usually used a "gada" as his weapon - beside his deadly "kuku pancanaka" or his long nail. But not every fellow with gada is Bima. Sometimes, demi-god, demi-ape Hanuman, Hanila, Hanggada and also Sugriwa, Subali sometimes use gada as their weapon...

Some "gate guardian" statues, also wears gada...

[Marcokeris]

Rick also i agree with Ganjawulung. I think your hits is Bima with his club used to crash enemy's head.
Usually Bima is a rather angry pankanaka (opposite of his brother Arjuna that is a kind gentleman loved by women)
I put another Bima hit with the same weapon.

[Battara]

.....Although Bima was loved by a demon.........and bore a demon son in Mahabharata :eek:

[Rick]

Rick also i agree with Ganjawulung. I think your hits is Bima with his club used to crash enemy's head.
Usually Bima is a rather angry pankanaka (opposite of his brother Arjuna that is a kind gentleman loved by women)
I put another Bima hit with the same weapon.

There is a resemblance but I'm still intrigued by the fangless, peaceful aspect of the togo that I have submitted .
So alike, yet so different . :shrug:

I'm also fascinated by these Bali hilts that are polychrome over some kind of gesso-like material applied to carved wood .

Marcokris shows another example of this type of hilt in the Ligan thread .

Rick

[ganjawulung]

Are these a couple of leak? Rangda?

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Ganja, the togog on the left looks like Rangda, holding the corpse of a child :eek: The one on the right looks like it could be Nawa Sari-is he holding a sheaf of rice behind his head?

[Marcokeris]

Two very nice hits indeed. I'm agree with Lennythesmith : one is Navasari, the other is Rangda (or perhaps Rangda's sister). Ganjawulung are the hits from Madura?

[Jussi M.]

Rick also I agree with Ganjawulung. I think your hits is Bima with his club used to crash enemy's head.
Usually Bima is a rather angry pankanaka (opposite of his brother Arjuna that is a kind gentleman loved by women)
I put another Bima hit with the same weapon.

I have no clue of this "Gentleman" Bima but the position he is at strikes me strongly as like he indeed is ready to whack somebody with a serious intent :eek:

[Rick]

Marco, Ganja, stunning examples .
I drool . ;) :D

[Marcokeris]

Another Rangda with stolen baby. This hit material is rare. It is a kind of coral like Akar Bahar but is not black but yellow (uli emas).
It's strange that while there are many Rangda hits in Bali, I never saw a hit with the figure of Barong!

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Marco, that Rangda is AWESOME :D The coral looks similar to a dark Baltic amber! Any more?? ;)

[David]

My goodness! Fascinating material on that hilt Marco. I love it! :)

[David]

oh...the ivory one is stunning as well... ;) :)

[ganjawulung]

Two very nice hits indeed. I'm agree with Lennythesmith : one is Navasari, the other is Rangda (or perhaps Rangda's sister). Ganjawulung are the hits from Madura?

No Marco, it is from Bali. Wooden hilt material. And this other one below, is made of "balung" (bone). Another motive of Ganesha. I bought it from a "mranggi" (sheath maker) in Batuan, near Ubud, Gianyar...

[Marcokeris]

A ganesh hit like Ganja hit. Another coral hit ( akar bahar)