Pirate swords and weapons 2

[M ELEY]

Bringing up this thread again as I've got pics on the way (Thanks again,Rick!)
024- First is of a panopoly of maritime arms with a pirate theme. Carved Indonesian chest with skulls and splay of weapons. Yes, I'm eat up with Age of Fighting Sail/maritime/pirates :D

[RSWORD]

Nice display Mark!

[M ELEY]

023- Here's a nice grouping of swords/cutlasses of the period. Will show more of each later.

[M ELEY]

021- I've never been much into firearms, but these 2 really had an impact on me. The top is a British boarding pistol from 1780-1800 period, brass octogonal barrel with proof marks, boxlock flintlock, Water's patent spring-loaded bayonet. Moore's Amer Rev book has several pictured. These butt-kickers were good for storming another's ship or reducing a threat of mutiny. The blunderbus barrel allowed for horrible damage close up...
The other boarding pistol is Belgian made with ELG marks, ca 1810 flintlock with a huge bore (?.69). This would be the one someone would purposely stuff iron shavings, tacks, old coins, etc, down to create a shrapnel effect. :eek: Note the lanyard ring to attach a rope to prevent the pistol being swept over the side in the heat of battle. Likewise, no ramrod or place for one...these were a one-shot deal!

[Jim McDougall]

WOW! Very nice display Mark! I can picture you in there with a bottle of rum and waving a cutlass :)
The cutlass there with the fluted ebony grip is identical to one I have that has a 'Montmorency' cross section blade which is marked 'wooley & deakin' (dates to years 1801-1803). This form of brass hilt sabre was also made I believe by Durs Egg in England at the same time. Interesting that the ebony grip as well as the blade form carrys French influence, something that seems to have been reflected in James Wooley's work from the time of the M1788 sabres.
My sabre is relatively short for a cavalry sabre, so I had suspected it might have been a maritime weapon, as well of course as the brass mounts.

Thanks so much for the jump start on this topic Mark!!

All the best,
Jim

[RSWORD]

023- Here's a nice grouping of swords/cutlasses of the period. Will show more of each later.

Pics added.

[RSWORD]

021- I've never been much into firearms, but these 2 really had an impact on me. The top is a British boarding pistol from 1780-1800 period, brass octogonal barrel with proof marks, boxlock flintlock, Water's patent spring-loaded bayonet. Moore's Amer Rev book has several pictured. These butt-kickers were good for storming another's ship or reducing a threat of mutiny. The blunderbus barrel allowed for horrible damage close up...
The other boarding pistol is Belgian made with ELG marks, ca 1810 flintlock with a huge bore (?.69). This would be the one someone would purposely stuff iron shavings, tacks, old coins, etc, down to create a shrapnel effect. :eek: Note the lanyard ring to attach a rope to prevent the pistol being swept over the side in the heat of battle. Likewise, no ramrod or place for one...these were a one-shot deal!

Pics added

[M ELEY]

Jim, thanks for the input on that sword. I've always thought of them as a British NCO m1790 model, was unaware that Wooley produced them. Wooley & Deakin produced other types of naval swords, specifically the M1803 boarding cutlass (in one of my pics coming up). Jim, if you have one with this maker and a shorter blade, there is a definate possibility it might have seen duty as a "private purchase" naval sword. Very interesting!

[M ELEY]

020- A collection of short swords/hangers. Many of these were very popular with sailors due to their small size (avoidance of getting tangled in the rigging) and inexpensive nature.
Top one is probably French and has definate characteristics of a sea sword per Rankin (Naval Swords), including a plain, undecorated blade, brass fittings (resist sea air) and nautical hilt motiffs (this one with shells, sea grass, ocean waves), circa 1770's-80's.
Middle one discussed in days of yore on the forum! Dutch hanger, ca.1660-80, with carved Singhalese hilt of lion with hunting dog guard/finials carved in tropical wood. Probabaly dating to the Anglo-Dutch Wars, marking a series of 4 dots making a diamond shape (this pattern seen on early Singhalese coins circa 300AD called the 'maneless lion coins", but also seen on Dutch Dump coins of the period)
Final hanger is Dutch, marked with sword maker/sharpener and owner and the street where it was made, plus "Amsterdam". From Colonial Williamsburg area...

[M ELEY]

019- Ahhh! The boarding cutlass! :cool: Sorry...couldn't resist!
The top one I believe to either be an original American boarding cutlass or one made from an earlier cut-down model. Either way, it's private purchase, probably 1805-40 period. The blade with even pitting (like other sea swords I've seen with salt exposure) and a long straight blade with abrupt curve at end like other American swords seen in Neumann's Swords/Blades of the Amer Revolution. Round disc iron guard tarred/blackened for sea service (rust protection), ribbed grip in imitation of naval issue boarding cutlass of the period. Here's the odd thing...the blade isn't piened. It appears the hilt was made hollow and the tang set into it followed by poured molten brass! It's quite secure, but hadn't seen anything else like it. So-called private purchase swords came in all manner of styles (someone needs to write a book on them!!)
The second cutlass in the classic British M1803 with "Figure of 8" hilt/guard. Ribbed iron grip/guard primed black for rust resistance. Straight blade with block letter "GR" George Rex over crown. Most are cursive lettering, so I think this sword of later manufacture (1810-20). This is similar to Jack Sparrow's sword in the film...great flick, but the timeline for this weapon carried in that film all wrong.

[RSWORD]

020- A collection of short swords/hangers. Many of these were very popular with sailors due to their small size (avoidance of getting tangled in the rigging) and inexpensive nature.
Top one is probably French and has definate characteristics of a sea sword per Rankin (Naval Swords), including a plain, undecorated blade, brass fittings (resist sea air) and nautical hilt motiffs (this one with shells, sea grass, ocean waves), circa 1770's-80's.
Middle one discussed in days of yore on the forum! Dutch hanger, ca.1660-80, with carved Singhalese hilt of lion with hunting dog guard/finials carved in tropical wood. Probabaly dating to the Anglo-Dutch Wars, marking a series of 4 dots making a diamond shape (this pattern seen on early Singhalese coins circa 300AD called the 'maneless lion coins", but also seen on Dutch Dump coins of the period)
Final hanger is Dutch, marked with sword maker/sharpener and owner and the street where it was made, plus "Amsterdam". From Colonial Williamsburg area...

Pics added

[RSWORD]

019- Ahhh! The boarding cutlass! :cool: Sorry...couldn't resist!
The top one I believe to either be an original American boarding cutlass or one made from an earlier cut-down model. Either way, it's private purchase, probably 1805-40 period. The blade with even pitting (like other sea swords I've seen with salt exposure) and a long straight blade with abrupt curve at end like other American swords seen in Neumann's Swords/Blades of the Amer Revolution. Round disc iron guard tarred/blackened for sea service (rust protection), ribbed grip in imitation of naval issue boarding cutlass of the period. Here's the odd thing...the blade isn't piened. It appears the hilt was made hollow and the tang set into it followed by poured molten brass! It's quite secure, but hadn't seen anything else like it. So-called private purchase swords came in all manner of styles (someone needs to write a book on them!!)
The second cutlass in the classic British M1803 with "Figure of 8" hilt/guard. Ribbed iron grip/guard primed black for rust resistance. Straight blade with block letter "GR" George Rex over crown. Most are cursive lettering, so I think this sword of later manufacture (1810-20). This is similar to Jack Sparrow's sword in the film...great flick, but the timeline for this weapon carried in that film all wrong.

Pics added

[Jim McDougall]

Mark, these are incredible groupings of weapons! and exactly what I was hoping for when I first posted the pirate weapons thread (and thank you Rick for posting these!).
You have clearly done meticulous research on these, and the identifications are great, clearly captioning each item.

In 023, the second sword down (between the two Spanish swords) with the striated shellguard, I have discovered recently is of a form that is apparantly regarded as Brazilian and termed espada ancha. These swords with the interesting hilt that has nocked grip similar to Moroccan nimchas, and the heavy shell guard, seem to date to end of 18th c. to middle of the 19th.

While the 'Golden Age' of piracy actually ended about 1718, this much romanticized period by no means suggests that piracy did not exist before it began, nor certainly when it 'ended'. The Spanish trade routes throughout the Caribbean, Florida, Cuba, Mexico and South America extended to Spanish Morocco as well. There were of course pirates that sailed from Brazilian regions, and this activity prevailed from c.1800 well into the 19th c.
The third sword down (just below the Brazilian espada ancha) is of course the Spanish dragoon type sword commonly termed the 'bilbo' (presumably from the bilobate guard, however the term is a collectors term which remains speculative). It is significant to note here that it seems many of these seem to have provenanced from Cuba and eastern Mexican port regions.

The next sword, with eagle hilt, is another I recall our discussions on. The blade is one of the well known trade blades usually associated with Spanish colonial swords of late 18th c.These often carry the 'Spanish Motto' and now are believed to have been Solingen made for export from c.1750-1810.

While I am somewhat unfamiliar with dirks, in the two shown in the photo, I think it is significant to note that the three other swords seem to be well placed as examples of the types of swords that would have potentially been in use in the period and regions of later piracy on the "Spanish Main" from the opening of the 19th century and well on later.

Fantastic displays!!! :) Thank you so much for sharing these. Being able to look at these adds whole new dimension to reading on pirates, and enjoying these great adventures,

All the very best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thanks so much, Jim! It means alot to have your input. The attribution to an espada is fascinating, as I have ended up with a grouping of these swords quite by but now they fit nicely in the pirate/privateer theme. I am surprised at your memory of the eagle hilt (actually, it's a primative lion head) and you are exactly right in that it does have the Spanish motto and is marked Solingen. There are a couple more pics of these swords in 023 coming up as well as a few other sundry pieces.

018- More detail of the 3 sabers from the first photo. The middle one already discussed as the M1799. The bottom piece a Spanish broadsword, ca.1790-1820. The top one a true AMerican piece, circa 1780-1810, with typical pommel, ivory/bone grip, European blade with splays of arms, etc. At one time, the guard apparently damaged and replaced with a simple crosspiece of walnut.

[M ELEY]

017- A closeup of the above grouping...

[M ELEY]

016- A closeup of the cast lionhead hilt...

[RSWORD]

Thanks so much, Jim! It means alot to have your input. The attribution to an espada is fascinating, as I have ended up with a grouping of these swords quite by but now they fit nicely in the pirate/privateer theme. I am surprised at your memory of the eagle hilt (actually, it's a primative lion head) and you are exactly right in that it does have the Spanish motto and is marked Solingen. There are a couple more pics of these swords in 023 coming up as well as a few other sundry pieces.

018- More detail of the 3 sabers from the first photo. The middle one already discussed as the M1799. The bottom piece a Spanish broadsword, ca.1790-1820. The top one a true AMerican piece, circa 1780-1810, with typical pommel, ivory/bone grip, European blade with splays of arms, etc. At one time, the guard apparently damaged and replaced with a simple crosspiece of walnut.

Pics added

[RSWORD]

017- A closeup of the above grouping...

Pics added

[RSWORD]

016- A closeup of the cast lionhead hilt...

Pics added

[M ELEY]

015- Top pic is of a "New Spain" colonial sword/cutlass, ca.1800-20 period with swelled horn grip and 3 branched guard piened to cup guard. This guard always reminds me of later Mexican metal work spurs. According to "Spanish Swords in Colonial America", these types probably more Central/South American. There was a resurgence of pirate activity in the 1810-30 time period in the Caribbean, particularly with Cuban pirates. Likewise, the logwood cutters of Compeche and Hondurus were always quick to take up piracy when their work dropped off or was halted.
Middle is the head of a naval pike, probably British, ca 1810.
Bottom pic is the now-identified Brazilian espada (Thanks, Jim!!!) previously discussed.

[M ELEY]

013- Here is a nice comparison of a New Spain bilbo (top) vs a traditional bilbo already discussed.
The New Spain bilbo (top) I thought was an interesting piece obviously assembled from availible materials in the New World. Blade consists of one of the numerous earlier Spanish blades (markings so worn so as to be unreadible, but I do see a Maltese cross??) cut down to fit this piece. The bilobate cup similar to the traditional bilbo with decorations (see below), the plain wood hilt/wire wrap and pommel of the period (ca 1780-1830). Note the crude bars of the guard brazed into a unique shape. This piece, I believe, has cross appeal as not only an antique, but also as a form of folk art. :D

[M ELEY]

011- Detail of New Spain bilbo guard...

[M ELEY]

010- The whole hilt of the New Spain bilbo...

[M ELEY]

009- Two naval dirks. These types of dirks were carried by midshipmen in both the European and American navies from approximately 1750-1880's. Midshipmen could be as young as 8 years old(!!) up to adulthood. Many of these were signs of rank/decorative, but others were amde for the business of defending oneself if your ship was boarded or if you were storming another's ship. Lord Nelson himself used to use one in battle as a yound cadet.
Top dirk either French or American copying the French style. Plain cruciform guard, fluted black horn grip with flat guilded pommel cap. The blade is slightly edged, but has a wickedly sharp point. Wouldn't want to get gigged with this thing! :eek: Circa 1805-20's?
Bottom pic one of the classic patterns of British naval dirks seen (no specific patterns on these, but many copied a particular pattern). Fluted square ivory grip, up and down quillons and "pillow-form" pommel all guilded. Blade has a full cutting edge and false edge for half it's length.

[M ELEY]

007- More detail of the two naval dirks...

[RSWORD]

015- Top pic is of a "New Spain" colonial sword/cutlass, ca.1800-20 period with swelled horn grip and 3 branched guard piened to cup guard. This guard always reminds me of later Mexican metal work spurs. According to "Spanish Swords in Colonial America", these types probably more Central/South American. There was a resurgence of pirate activity in the 1810-30 time period in the Caribbean, particularly with Cuban pirates. Likewise, the logwood cutters of Compeche and Hondurus were always quick to take up piracy when their work dropped off or was halted.
Middle is the head of a naval pike, probably British, ca 1810.
Bottom pic is the now-identified Brazilian espada (Thanks, Jim!!!) previously discussed.

Pics added

[RSWORD]

013- Here is a nice comparison of a New Spain bilbo (top) vs a traditional bilbo already discussed.
The New Spain bilbo (top) I thought was an interesting piece obviously assembled from availible materials in the New World. Blade consists of one of the numerous earlier Spanish blades (markings so worn so as to be unreadible, but I do see a Maltese cross??) cut down to fit this piece. The bilobate cup similar to the traditional bilbo with decorations (see below), the plain wood hilt/wire wrap and pommel of the period (ca 1780-1830). Note the crude bars of the guard brazed into a unique shape. This piece, I believe, has cross appeal as not only an antique, but also as a form of folk art. :D

Pics added

[RSWORD]

011- Detail of New Spain bilbo guard...

Pics added

[RSWORD]

010- The whole hilt of the New Spain bilbo...

Pics added

[RSWORD]

009- Two naval dirks. These types of dirks were carried by midshipmen in both the European and American navies from approximately 1750-1880's. Midshipmen could be as young as 8 years old(!!) up to adulthood. Many of these were signs of rank/decorative, but others were amde for the business of defending oneself if your ship was boarded or if you were storming another's ship. Lord Nelson himself used to use one in battle as a yound cadet.
Top dirk either French or American copying the French style. Plain cruciform guard, fluted black horn grip with flat guilded pommel cap. The blade is slightly edged, but has a wickedly sharp point. Wouldn't want to get gigged with this thing! :eek: Circa 1805-20's?
Bottom pic one of the classic patterns of British naval dirks seen (no specific patterns on these, but many copied a particular pattern). Fluted square ivory grip, up and down quillons and "pillow-form" pommel all guilded. Blade has a full cutting edge and false edge for half it's length.

Pics added

[RSWORD]

007- More detail of the two naval dirks...

Pics added

[Jim McDougall]

Mark, this just keeps getting gooder and gooder!!! :)
Seriously, this is undoubtedly the most breathtaking array of potentially pirate associated weapons I have seen.......and much of this is like the pages of Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain come to life!
Thank you so much for sharing these.
I'm off to the books:)
All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thanks for commenting, Jim. I know alot of these are more "maritime" that confirmed pirate, but privateering definately fits these items, I think. Into the home stretch :)

[M ELEY]

005- Here are a couple of spike axes. Prior to the early British issued models and the American types which followed them (ca. 1790's & on), most maritime axes were tomahawk types, meaning they had a cutting edge and wicked spike end. This allowed for them to be used as both a tool, fire implement, and weapon.
The top axe, ca. 1780-1800, blacksmith-made with nice long original haft. Although no provenance to prove sea use, it definately has many of the characteristics that indicate that it might have been, including the long haft, rounded butt to the base and generalized shape.
The botton axe ca. 1790-1830 period, blacksmith-made forged iron with steel bit edge.

[M ELEY]

004- Detail of the long-hafted colonial axe...

[M ELEY]

003- Wouldn't be complete without a couple of cannon balls!
The large ball is a so-called Coehorn exploding shell. The coehorn portable cannons had limited use at sea, but were definately used on some ships. This shell probably dates 1810-30.
The two smaller balls are 2 pounders, a favorite of the Americans. Smaller round shot such as these might have been used on swivel- or deck guns to disuade boarding parties :rolleyes:

[M ELEY]

001- Finally, a little ethnographic items thrown in to give a nod to other pirate brethren!
I included the Malaitan club as an occupational hazard to mariners and privateers alike! It is an odd fact that with so many sailors raoming around the ocean, many of them couldn't swim! Most who fell overboard went to the bottom like a stone. The reason that the great explorer Captain Cooke really died on that beach in Hawaii was because he couldn't swim out to the waiting rowboat just alittle ways off-shore. He met an end from a club probably similar to this one...
Well, that ends my pics. Hope some of you enjoyed them!

[RSWORD]

005- Here are a couple of spike axes. Prior to the early British issued models and the American types which followed them (ca. 1790's & on), most maritime axes were tomahawk types, meaning they had a cutting edge and wicked spike end. This allowed for them to be used as both a tool, fire implement, and weapon.
The top axe, ca. 1780-1800, blacksmith-made with nice long original haft. Although no provenance to prove sea use, it definately has many of the characteristics that indicate that it might have been, including the long haft, rounded butt to the base and generalized shape.
The botton axe ca. 1790-1830 period, blacksmith-made forged iron with steel bit edge.

Pics added

[RSWORD]

004- Detail of the long-hafted colonial axe...

Pics added

[RSWORD]

003- Wouldn't be complete without a couple of cannon balls!
The large ball is a so-called Coehorn exploding shell. The coehorn portable cannons had limited use at sea, but were definately used on some ships. This shell probably dates 1810-30.
The two smaller balls are 2 pounders, a favorite of the Americans. Smaller round shot such as these might have been used on swivel- or deck guns to disuade boarding parties :rolleyes:

Pics added

[Gavin Nugent]

013- Here is a nice comparison of a New Spain bilbo (top) vs a traditional bilbo already discussed.
The New Spain bilbo (top) I thought was an interesting piece obviously assembled from availible materials in the New World. Blade consists of one of the numerous earlier Spanish blades (markings so worn so as to be unreadible, but I do see a Maltese cross??) cut down to fit this piece. The bilobate cup similar to the traditional bilbo with decorations (see below), the plain wood hilt/wire wrap and pommel of the period (ca 1780-1830). Note the crude bars of the guard brazed into a unique shape. This piece, I believe, has cross appeal as not only an antique, but also as a form of folk art. :D

I am enjoying this thread greatly and there is a wonderful array of pirate/privateer and naval weapons displayed, a most interesting collection.
I have attached an image you displayed earlier and would like to add a few facts about the bottom sword that has been discussed as it is one of my all time favorites apart from the later and rarer 1796 pattern.
The sword you originally posted is a 1728 pattern spanish cavalry sword, look up Juan José Pérez works on this subject matter, the following is a quote from his works and the second image is an peroid engraving he displays in his works.

"In 1728 a regulation sword patttern for cavalry troopers appears for the first time in Spain, anticipating itself this way to many other countries of its surroundings. This pattern, defined by Royal Ordenance of July 12th of that year, presents a double-edged straight blade (as all Spanish cavalry swords of 18th cent.), having a double-shell iron hilt with knuckle-bow and curved quillons, as a period engraving shows along with the scabbard, made in leather-covered wood. Length of blade 940 mm, width 36 mm,
thickness 6 mm."

Keep up the great work guys, I will continue to view with great interest.

regards

Gav

PS if you look closely you will see what appears to be the Maltese cross you mention that is on the top sword.

[M ELEY]

I'm glad you enjoyed the thread and thanks for the further information, Gav. I was unaware of Perez' work and I will keep an eye out for it. I also love the general patterning of this sword, especially the bilobate hilt like those found on smallswords.
Thanks for pointing out the Maltese cross shape. Interesting that this device is used on many Spanish pieces. The Knights of Malta was still around during this period, but I don't know what connection, if any, they had with Spain?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
The outstanding works on Spanish swords by Juan Perez can be found linked on Lee Jones article on the espada ancha located here on this site.
In looking at the bilobate guards on these military swords, I often have thought (in my typical free association way:) of the Spanish shields of overlapping oval form termed 'adarga' and wondered if there was any association to the guards.

The Maltese (or St.Johns) cross is very much associated with Spanish religious and military symbolism, having to do with the military orders of the Knights of Alcantara and the Knights of Calatrava. Apparantly these orders adopted the red cross on white mantle from the Cistercians. References to Columbus in referring to the red crosses painted on the sails of his ships have varying perspective on the symbolic application. His association with Prince Henry of Portugal who was a Grand Master of the Knights of Christ, and whose symbolism of the red 'maltese' cross offers one possibility. However another reference is more general in stating that King Ferdinand of Castile-Aragon, for whom Columbus sailed, flew the 'Maltese christian cross on his sails'. Without going further with the complexities of the cross known commonly as 'Maltese' and its very widespread use symbolically, it does seem that it may have some amuletic or talismanic value in markings on weapons.

The application of the crosses on the sails may have been done in the same apotropaic sense that merchants marks with variations of crosses and 'anchors' were used to mark cargo and eventually weapons to protect them at sea.

Again, I cannot thank you enough for sharing these fantastic weapons here! This is definitely a thread that I know I'll be visiting often just to see them. :)

All very best regards,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Wow! I hadn't realized that there were other branches of Knights who used similar symbols as the Knights of St John. Very interesting tie-in. I've wondered about the so-called Maltese Cross for quite some time and that brings clarity. Thanks, Jim, your knowledge on the subject seems extensive! (and this with half your library tucked away!). On a totally unrelated subject (well, perhaps not TOTALLY), I read with fascination about the end of the Knights due to Napoleon's trickery. It was said that all of the treasures of the knights, spanning back to the earliest Crusade with the Templars, was placed on the flagship L'Orient. Shortly thereafter, the British fleet arrived and sent the flaming ship to her doom. Now there's a great spin on a conspiracy theory ala Ron Brown if you ask me. What secrets and knowledge did the Maltese Knights have, like their Templar brethren, that was lost that day? :eek: Hey, I better get started writing this book! :D

[Marc]

Well, I suppose you mean an eight-point cross, symbol of the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, Kinights Hospitaliers or Knights of Malta :
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b118/leodegundia/simbolo-hospitalario.gif
They had a close relationship with the various Iberian Kingdoms and also with the Spanish Monarchy later on, it wouldn't be strange to find this symbol in a Spanish blade. But the Spanish Military Orders are different orders (founded in different places, by different people and for different reasons) and have different symbology, I'm afraid. The most important ones that were still around at the 18th. c. (and still are, nowadays) are the following ones:

Order of Santiago:
http://santiagodecompostela.vivelaciudad.es/images/2007/05/cruzsantiago.jpg

Order of Calatrava:

http://users.skynet.be/sb275037/rancel/escudos/cruz_calatrava.gifhttp://enciclopedia.us.es/images/2/22/Cruz_calatrava.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Cross_Calatrava.svg/200px-Cross_Calatrava.svg.png

Order of Alcántara:
http://www.naturayeducacion.com/castillos/biblioteca/imag/7_alcantara.jpghttp://enciclopedia.us.es/images/0/0c/Cross_alcantara.png

and Order of Montesa:

http://www.delarrago.com/images/im_her/Orden-militar-de-Montesa.png

There's some more, but those are the most usual.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
There is so much complexity in trying to clearly understand these early military orders and religious orders that evolved prior to and during the crusades, which were of course complex in understanding themselves. I am not sure that historians even agree specifically on exactly how many crusades or actual campaigns there were over the two hundred year + period.I must admit that I was struggling through "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" a full decade before Dan Brown wrote the "DaVinci Code", and found some relief in enjoying the movie! :)

Marc, thank you for showing the variations in the military orders and the forms and color coding of the crosses that have evolved in thier symbolism. It really is interesting that the color coding has become so key, as well as the fluerets added on the ends of the cross branches on some, and there is of course numeric symbolism in the eight point crosses.

It would be interesting to know just what the crosses worn on the knights' mantles really looked like, and for that matter, the crosses on the sails of Columbus' ships. While we naturally have no contemporary illustrations, and the artistic license of the art created much later and based loosely on narratives and the imagination of the artist, there is really no way to know for sure.
The reference that noted that Ferdinand's ships carried the red Christian cross on thier sails, may have meant that entirely metaphorically, suggesting that the expeditions were for the glory of the Church rather than the search for gold. The red crosses always depicted on the mantles of the crusaders seem to suggest similar symbolism. Whatever the case, it does seem unlikely that any cross or such device applied in those times would have incorporated the artistic elements of these later graphic interpretations with the key symbolisms imbued in the elements.

The simple 'maltese' cross that was stamped or carved into metalwork such as seen on blades would not have the benefit of color nor the intricacies seen in variations, so the specifics typically would remain assumed. The symbolism however would seem to allude to these orders and further to the apotropaic properties often applied in blade markings of the period.

Thanks very much Mark for the kind words! I really do wish I did have extensive knowledge on this subject, and my copy of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" is so tattered and dogeared from all the years I've tried to understand it, my wife groans every time we take a flight and there I am with it!:)

Marc, its really great to have you come in on the thread, and I really appreciate you including those crosses and the various orders. The symbolism in these denote the fantastic and colorful history of Spain and Portugal and thier monumental importance in world history.

All very best regards,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Jim, I had a question for you after re-reading this thread. Under the Spanish broadsword with the brass lion hilt, Spanish motto and Solingen marking, you mentioned that it is now believed that many of these were German imports from 1750-1810. Do you happen to know the source that you mention, as I have hoped for a more exact date on this piece. Thanks!

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
From what I understand, the sword making industry in key locations in Spain, primarily of course Toledo, was having great difficulty in this period, and despite ordinances from Charles III, imports from Solingen still were being absorbed into shipments to the colonies. I would have to retrace old notes, but I think there are comments on this in the Wallace Collection volumes, describing swords with the 'Spanish motto'. The comments on the state of the industry in Spain were in a book on Spanish colonial ironwork by I believe Frank Turley.
It seems that the fullered blades with the motto were from Solingen, though I do believe the 'dragoon' blades c.1760's of hexagonal cross section were for mounting on regulation swords, and from Spain. As always, I would welcome confirmation on this from Marc.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Mark,
"Wallace Collection Catalogs:European Arms & Armour", Vol.II, Sir James Mann, 1962
p.268, #A520 a sword with earlier hilt (German), mounted with single edged blade at 37 3/4" , marked with 'NO SE SAQUES SIN RAZON'
NO ME ENVAYNES SIN HONOR'
Stamped near hilt with P.Knecht near hilt , also with number '259' (suggesting numeric in a grouping of similar blades, and Mann suggests that the blade is German c.1770). The Knecht family 'traded' in swords in the 18th century, rather than being makers. On the opposite side of blade is 'Solingen' in similar location to the Knecht name stamp, but it is inscribed rather than stamped.

p.325, #A641, an early English or Flemish hilt, 17th century, mounted with double edged blade with central groove, 36 1/4" long.
NO ME SAQUES SIN RASON
NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR
The blade late 17th early 18th century German as suggested by Mann.

These entries suggest that this 'Spanish motto' was in use possibly even earlier in the 18th century, though it seems most of them that appear in the colonies are from the latter part of the 18th century according to the descriptions in Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain. References in that book also note that well known collector Bill Scollard had acquired large groups of these blades that had been stored from one shipment if I recall.

Another form of blades sent to the colonies in this manner were thin rapier blades , which apparantly were used in infantry officers rapiers that were used quite late, possibly even into late 18th century. I recall working on identifying a group of about 40 of these blades found in a wreck site many years ago in the Caribbean.

All best regards,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thanks for this valuable information, Jim. The reason I'm asking is the lion-hilt sword blade/grip always struck me as at least mid-late 18th century, but the 2 German makers/traders date to a later period per Bezdek's book. If one or the other German traders had stamped it alone, it would be of 1790's date, but listed together as they are, I think they date to 1820's 40's, much later than I think this sword dates. I know many guns created earlier were often stamped by merchants later (my British boarding pistol with 18th century proofs inscribed S. Wallis for Stephen Wallis, a merchant in Birmingham from 1816-30's), so any chance this sword marked later by these traders??

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for this valuable information, Jim. The reason I'm asking is the lion-hilt sword blade/grip always struck me as at least mid-late 18th century, but the 2 German makers/traders date to a later period per Bezdek's book. If one or the other German traders had stamped it alone, it would be of 1790's date, but listed together as they are, I think they date to 1820's 40's, much later than I think this sword dates. I know many guns created earlier were often stamped by merchants later (my British boarding pistol with 18th century proofs inscribed S. Wallis for Stephen Wallis, a merchant in Birmingham from 1816-30's), so any chance this sword marked later by these traders??

I'm inclined to agree with you on the period on the hilt Mark, and the lionhead style seems very much like Revolutionary War period as seen in the many examples of lionhead shown in Neumann. I seem to have lost what stamps or markings are on the blade of this sword other than the 'motto'. It seems logical that trade products such as blades would carry any number of stamps or marks as it progressively was retraded or refurbished.
In regimental swords for example, I had one British M1899 cavalry sword whose restamped markings revealed its history much in the way the stamps in a personal passport become same history.

All best regards,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thanks, Jim. The maker/trader was Schimmerbursch & Hirschbaum, or something like that. Bezdek mentions that apart, their practices date to 1790's (roughly our period), but Bezdek also says they didn't become a firm together until first quarter of the 19th century, still possible, but sword looks older and styling of the earlier period. I guess best just to classify it as ca.1790-1820, pre-Mexico period.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
The actual grip/pommel in brass with lionhead seems of the style seen in mid 18th century on American and some English swords, but the beveled solid brass hilt seems more like English swords earlier 19th c. (often seen on band swords and such). Most of these seem like they had a capstan on the pommel. I have not found anything in either Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain nor Neumann that truly corresponds however.

The hilt itself does appear assembled with the iron three bar guard. This seems to agree with other Spanish colonial blacksmith type work. I have seen a solid brass briquet hilt mounted with an iron three bar guard as well as a well cut down blade of this exact form. The lionhead is the true anomaly, but I agree with the period you suggest, probably more into early 19th c.

In 2005 there was a discussion concerning one of Custer's swords which he allegedly took in combat from a Confederate officer in the Civil War. The sword had a 19th century hilt of American military brass form, but had an unusually large blade of the Solingen form with three fullers, and the 'Spanish motto'. In 2007 I located the sword itself in the museum at the Little Bighorn in Montana, as well as biographical evidence that suggests that the sword was a war trophy actually given to him for his sword collection. It would seem that the Confederate officer from whom the sword was captured might have in turn gained the blade as a heirloom from the Mexican-American war c.1846. Mexican officers seem to have very much favored heirloom blades.

I would suspect this lionhead sword probably was put together in the latter 1820's by a by a blacksmith in the northern frontiers in Mexico, and possibly with the lionhead hilt component joined with the three bar guard. The guard seems a bit bent around. I think these often roughly fashioned swords from the very beginnings of Mexico are really fascinating! To me they are as rugged as the country itself, and having spent nearly two months in the Sonoran desert truly gave me some genuine perspective on that!

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thanks, Jim. That was something I had suspected. Perhaps it even served in the Mexican War.

[M ELEY]

Resurrecting this old thread! Here's a Chinese dau, as a nod to the pirates of the South China Sea region-