End of sword collecting in the UK

[kronckew]

The UK govt. in their wisdom has declared any curved sword over 50 cm. (19.675 in) is to be illegal after april 6th. exceptions are any sword made in japan before 1954 and any made in japan by traditional methods.

sale or importation is an offense.

so, the law which started off to ban cheap samurai swords will now ban any antique sabre such as a 1796 light cavalry sabre, dhas, darbs, tulwars, shamshirs, kilij etc... cheap samurai swords are OK as long as they are made in japan and 'by traditional methods' whatever they mean by that.

re-enactors and martial artists may be arrested but can defend themselves in court by proving they are legit & by paying a lawyer a fortune. no exemption for collectors.

as straight swords are not mentioned i guess they are not dangerous.

draft text of act: Linky to silly law (http://www.oriental-weaponry.co.uk/acatalog/sword-ban-information.html)

this is in response to the massive increase in cases of assault on MP's by samurai sword welding nutters. (at least a whopping 2 cases in the last 20 years) ( thinking out of the box, why not punish the nutter for misuse, rather than banning an inanimate object)

i guess straight swords will be next, then daggers, then normal knives then plastic ones, paper drawings, and thinking of them will follow in succession.

nanny state in action.

[Gavin Nugent]

:eek: Silly law it is, other than legal mumbo jumbo words, no other words of any sense have been displayed in coming to these conclusions. Very sad :(

I wonder what tomorrow will hold for collectors and historians of this great country. :rolleyes:

[Rick]

Time to join the N.R.A. :mad:

So where does this leave the collections in private hands that are extant in the UK .
Will you be getting a knock on the door upon some midnight dreary ?

Or will it be an axe rather than a knock .







" Dont it always seem to go
That you dont know what you've got
Till its gone ......... "

[Lew]

Well if you want you can send all of those old swords to us collectors across the pond and we will hold on to them for you until you get this mess straightened out ;) I really feel that there will be an clause for collecting antique pieces added to the books when this is all done.

Lew

[spiral]

Well, worst than I had imagined.

So Long kukris are from Aprill now Illegal to buy ,sell or transfer. No exclusian for Antiques or Religious reasons it seems.

Still legal to own if you already posses it.

50cm from top of handle could mean blade length or overal length, depending on what a judge decides first time someone is arrested with one.

If you live in "Blighty" "land of the free" & want a longish curved blade youve got 8 weeks to get it.

Wheres the vomit smiley?

Spiral

[VANDOO]

A TRUE SHAME :( THE ENGLISH HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SOME OF THE GREATEST COLLECTORS IN THE WORLD AND THE TRADITION OF BRINGING BACK THE SPOILS OF WAR OR ETHINOGRAPHIC ITEMS GOES BACK TO BEFORE WRITTEN HISTORY. MANY ITEMS INCLUDING WEAPONS THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WORN OUT OR THROWN AWAY IN TIME WERE PRESERVED BECAUSE A COLLECTOR TOOK THEM HOME AND TOOK CARE OF THEM. IF IT WERE NOT FOR COLLECTORS THERE WOULD PROBABLY BE NO EXAMPLES OF MANY DIFFERENT THINGS IN THE WORLD TODAY. MOST SCIENCE WAS A DIRECT RESULT OF COLLECTORS WHO WERE INTERESTED IN STUDYING VARIOUS ODD THINGS. THE APOTHEOCARY LIKE HIS PREDACESOR THE MEDICINE MAN/ SHAMAN, LIKED TO TRY TO FIND IF THERE WERE ANY MEDICAL PROPERTYS IN ODD OR UNUSUAL THINGS AND STARTED CABINETS OF NATURAL CURIOSITIES WHICH EVOLVED INTO TODAYS MEDICAL AND BIOLOGICAL SCIENCES AND MUSEUMS. THE ALCHEMISTS COLLECTING AND EXPERIMENTING WITH ODD THINGS BECAME CHEMISTRY. SO DOING AWAY WITH THESE COLLECTORS AND THINKERS WOULD HAVE SEVERLY IMPACTED TODAYS WORLD. WITHOUT A DESIRE TO GET OUT IN THE WORLD AND STUDY ITS MANY THINGS AND COLLECT THEM WHO IN FUTURE WILL BE INTERESTED IN BECOMING OUR NATURALISTS AND SCIENTISTS.

TODAY RADICAL ENVIROMENTALISTS DON'T WANT US TO COLLECT ANYTHING ,JUST STAY ON THE PATH DON'T TOUCH AND JUST TAKE PICTURES. DON'T HUNT, DON'T FISH,DON'T CUT DOWN TREES OR WEEDS, DON'T BUILD DAMS, NUCLEUR POWER STATIONS,REFINERYS OR HOUSES AND DON'T DRILL FOR OIL. I THINK OF IT AS A RETURN TO THE STONE AGE EXCEPT WE WON'T BE ABLE TO HUNT OR FISH OR GATHER. IT WOULD NO DOUBT HELP MOTHER EARTH BECAUSE THE HUMAN RACE WOULD SOON BE AS DEAD AS THE DODO BIRD. WHEN WE ALL GET AS DAFT AS SOME GROUPS ARE NOW PERHAPS IT WILL BE TIME FOR MANKIND TO GO THE WAY OF THE DODO AND PUT US OUT OF OUR MISERY. :rolleyes:

WE ALSO SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY WEAPONS OF ANY TYPE AS IT MAKES US TOO HARD TO CONTROL BECAUSE WE MIGHT FIGHT BACK WHEN WE ARE DONE DIRTY AND ENSLAVED. IN A DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC THE PEOPLE OWN THE GOVERNMENT AND ULTIMETLY THEIR COUNTRY. IN SOCALISM AND COMMUNISM THE GOVERNMENT OWNS THE COUNTRY AND THE PEOPLE AS WELL AS THE REST OF THE LIFESTOCK. LIFESTOCK IS TAKEN CARE OF AS LONG AS IT SERVES THE FARMERS PURPOSE AND IS NOT TOO MUCH TROUBLE. EXCESS LIFESTOCK OR THOSE THAT CAUSE TROUBLE OR DON'T FATTEN UP GOOD ENOUGH ARE SOMETIMES SOLD TO OTHER FARMERS BUT USUALLY END UP AT THE SLAUGHTER HOUSE.

[A. G. Maisey]

Right now in the state of NSW, Australia, edged weapons collectors are waiting for the report and recommendations flowing from the review of the Prohibition of Weapons Act.

There will be restrictions on the ownership of swords , as yet we do not know how severe those restrictions will be.

In respect of the UK legislation:- I do not see the term "sword" in the definitions.

Exactly what is and is not a "sword" ?

Richard Burton was unable to define sword, I think from memory he finished up by saying something like :- "well, when you see one, you'll recognise it"

Lacking adequate definition of a "sword" this legislation is for practical purposes not able to be universally enforced. Yes, it will certainly apply to all those easily recognisable swords, but there are many other implements that could be considered to have the nature of a sword, and that could lead to a prosecution being launched. If the prosecution is unsuccessful , this will weaken the law.

From what I have just read in this legislation, it seems to be remarkably poorly drafted. I doubt that much thought went into this.

Consider this:- this legislation relies on a measurement taken from the handle.
If there is no handle, there can be no measurement taken, thus, demount the blade and you no longer have a sword.Perhaps sword collectors may have to consider their collecting in a different form. With many Asian weapons, this would present no problem at all.

[dennee]

The law appears to exempt "antiques," but antiques are defined as at least a century old, and I suppose that the burden of proof will fall to the owner, most weapons not being blessed with a date inscription or detailed provenance.

[Sikh_soldier]

typical Knee-jerk reaction.

Those intent on harming others and possibly themselves, will not be thinking 'oh no, The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons)(Amendment) Order 2008, means I mustn't'
This will not curb the alleged epidemic, but like speed cameras, fines for not wearing seatbelts, using a mobile phone etc, just create easy targets out of us law abiding citizens!

ps
Anyone extremely distressed over the new law, can contact me to sell me their valuable antique arms and armour at a greatly discounted price :D

Happy collecting 2008!
Best regards to all

Bali

[Andrew]

This very topic necessarily involves political discussion. However, let's stay on topic--which is infuriating enough--and otherwise avoid gratuitous political commentary.

[fearn]

Yes, please! Speaking as an environmentalist, I'd rather talk about the extreme short-sightedness of the British law, rather than go off on all the limits in modern life. I don't like many of the prohibitions either, but in the absence of personal responsibility and reasoned judgement, sometimes they're the only thing that works even slightly.

Does that mean I want to defend this law? --three lines of profanity excised-- NO! I personally think it's a stupid, pointless waste of time, and it's not even a good grandstanding move by the government. As a non-Brit, I'm just not sure what can be done about it, other than mocking any government who thinks that this is a good idea.

I forgotten who said it, but someone noted that while the amount of intelligence and knowledge in the universe is limited, the amount of idiocy and foolishness is not. This is another example of that truism.

F

[Jim McDougall]

In this Orwellian nightmare, does it mean that swords in museums and in private collections are now outlawed and subject to confiscation? I cannot believe that these important artifacts of monumental historical importance can possibly be included in such ridiculous legislation, and that bonified collectors and institutions such as museums would not be exempt.

In the many years I have studied swords and edged weapons, I have sought to convince museums and historical organizations that these artifacts are soundly representative of cultural, traditional and historical symbolism and not to be emphasized as tools of destruction. In many cases, these weapons are deeply imbued with religious significance and often considered elements of art in material culture.

It is time that the legal machine recognizes that criminal action cannot be eliminated by removing weapons themselves, as the inherent behaviour of such individuals knows no bounds in creativity in using all manner of 'weapons of opportunity', and virtually any object will serve.

I can only express outrage and disappointment in this news,

Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

I think this will only pertain to weapons brandished in the streets or found in vehicles or similar situations were the weapons law is not adopted convincingly, I cannot foresee the English police kicking down doors of collectors to get to these edged weapons. This law is an Amendment of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, one would have to find the complete law governing the ownership and use of these edged weapons to comment further I believe. Though saying that, I do wonder what knee jerk reaction there would be if a daft person saw a collector walking from a dealers shop front with a sword? Would that be considered a breach?

Hmmmmm

Gav

[kronckew]

freebooter,

the act prohibits the sale, trade, importing, loaning or giving away of the covered weapons, so both the the seller and the buyer are committing an offence. you can keep existing items in your home, (or museum) they can never leave tho, no loaning between museums. (or sending to collecters overseas, sorry)

dealers who are afraid they will get arrested due to the vagueness of the law will err on the side of caution and just not sell anything remotely similar. ebay will just ban the sale of anything that might be.

reminds me of the breed specific 'dangerous dogs act' that banned american pit bulls and 'pit bull types' - who defines what a 'pit bull type' is? the police, and the courts, lawyers and politicians, who have no idea or training. a chihuahua is genetically the same species as a pit bull, or a timber wolf. they can interbreed, is a chihuahua a pit bull type? it basicly means that any dog is liable. the 'if it looks like a pit bull, it is one' attitude is a bit vague for me. it's not the inanimate piece of steel, or the badly behaved dog, it's the owner and how he uses, or trains, them.

the police over here had to enter the home of a suspect, there was a dog in the back yard. to gain entry, they shot the dog. turned out to be the wrong house. no apology, no remorse, it was a dangerous dog. it barked at the invaders. distraught owners have no course of action. police said they did it to protect their men.

one of the incidents that lead up to the ban was a man brandishing a cheap stainless steel 'decorator' samurai sword at people from his front steps. the police arrived, and to protect themselves, shot him when he wouldn't put it down. the fact he was legally entitled to have it on his property was not a factor. the police did not apparently have any other means to subdue him, tho why they did not just isolate him & wait till he calmed down & talk to him i do not know. seems they justify it by saying he was on the steps, which were a public walkway so he was fair game.

there will likely be an 'amnesty' where people are allowed to bring in their swords to police stations for destruction. they had one for knives recently, and tv showed piles of them, most were kitchen knives, or those odd spikey fantasy knives, but you could spot the odd antique treasure soon to be a puddle of molten iron. more history down the tubes by unthinking barbarians.

my first father in law was a royal navy officer, lost his leg in battle with german patrol boats in the channel, he had two german short hunting swords he captured after a boarding, they were the typical bronze sculpted hilts with shell guards, blued blades with gold inlayed figures, complete with scabbards and sword knots. beautiful. he'd promised i could have them after he was gone. meanwhile they passed one of the earlier knife banns, had an amnesty & he turned them in, fearful of being a criminal - i was in the states at the time so by the time i found out it was too late. yet another anecdote of history down the melting pot.

the odd bit to me is that japanese swords are effectively and specifically exempt in a law intended to prohibit them, and i do not see any provision for antiques. i have a hand forged & tempered katana made this century which i guess is still legal but only if it was made in japan. it's unmarked, unsigned, does that mean it illegal, i am guilty unless i can prove i am innocent. though it was supposed to be i am innocent inless they prove i am guilty. the early 20th c. dha with the silver inlayed blade is no longer legal, the 19c. one may or may not be. :confused:

it is a draft, so maybe some sense will prevail, but with less than a month to go before it gets rammed past any opposition, i doubt it. will it do any good? i doubt it. criminals do not obey the law, only honest citizens (who will now soon be criminals). it'll make a good sound byte on tv, and make the sheeple feel more secure in their beds, even as the crime figures continue to rise. yobbos and gang members who might have carried one will just shift to cricket bats (baseball is not played here, so carrying a baseball bat is already considered to be armed with a dangerous weapon).

as anyone using an edged weapon in public is already illegal, even for defense, i do not see why the law is needed in the first place, i did not see why they needed to ban guns either, the crooks still have them, and still get them, it's the honest sportsman and home owner who again suffer. they cannot accept the facts that where guns are banned crime, inc. gun crime goes up. where guns are allowed and encouraged, crime goes down. the spate of university shootings on campuses where guns are specifically banned, in states where concealed carry is allowed under permit shows that the ban areas are just a target area for those who want to kill with impunity without risk they themselves may be stopped before they are done.

arghh!

[fearn]

Hmmmmm.

Actually, I can understand why they focused on curved blades.

There's a little problem with straight blades. They're religious objects to druids and similar pagans in the UK. There was a case a few years ago of a "sword-bearer" getting arrested while carrying a wrapped ritual sword to a ceremony. He stopped at a drug store, was arrested, and eventually got the sword back. Religious freedom is still one reason to carry a blade.

I wonder what will happen if the sikhs protest about losing their sabers in the UK? Or perhaps, what will happen when the druids lose their sickles?

While I don't think that "the Church of the Curved Blade" will have too many converts (I'd join, but who else?), I think there is a legitimate religious freedom case here. Perhaps some collectors might be interested in joining forces with a suitable Sikh or pagan group to get their rights back?

Just a thought,

F

[Tim Simmons]

This does at first appear very worrying. However I feel Freebooter is correct that this law is only part of a bigger picture. Law and enforcement are shades of grey not always black and white. There is a date factor to this bill and as mentioned the environment in which this weapons appear may be more crucial to the laws interpretation. Do you really think that the big auction houses in London will stop auctions of fine antique weapons? Are the feudal landlords going to be banned from maintaining and adding to there estate collection? many members of the public spend good money to view thier castle, country house. Do you really think Lord so and so will be banned from buy an antique sword from Sotheby's and the others. In action I imagine it will be akin to the sale of ivory. If you are an idiot or a scum bag caught with a weapon openly displayed in the wrong place then you only have yourself to blame. I hope :shrug:

[ashoka]

Antique swords over 100 years old are exempt. For clarification the chap fielding enquiries is Jonathon Batt tel: 0207 0351807 who should be able to answer any queries.

[Andrew]

Thanks for the info, Stefan. :cool:

[Mark]

Is there another law over there that deals specifically with antiques of any nature? One argument would be that if the sword is an antique under such a law, it should be permissible to own, sell, etc. Laws should not conflict, and generally the earlier law governs absent specific limitation or supercedence by a later law.

I am still always amazed at the idea of going after the means used to commit a crime, rather than the criminal. Shouldn't crowbars be made illegal, as they are often used in breaking and entering? Here in the US, as I imagine in the UK, there are some many laws already on the books that can be used to target criminal behavoir, yet they are so often laxly or inconsistenly applied. It comes down to pure politics, of course. Some MP, or Congressman, grabs a headline and runs with it for the attention it gets them as a crusader against crime.

[Lee]

Fortunately America's Founding Fathers saw the potential for exactly such abuse of governmental authority and addressed it in the Bill of Rights. Still, eternal vigilance is the price of liberty (http://freedomkeys.com/vigil.htm) and we would do well to fear that our goverment could also do something so foolishly expedient as to tamper with the Bill of Rights.

I cannot say that stopping the flow of so many of these modern mass produced 'junk' weapons into Britain will be entirely bad; but the impact upon serious modern bladesmiths and upon those wishing to study and collect legitimate ethnographic and historical military arms of the twentieth century is obvious, even in the unlikely event that the government handles the exemption of antiques competently.

[A. G. Maisey]

Those of you who live in countries that did not start life as a penal colony, might like to consider this:-

AUSTRALIA IS THE ONLY COMMON LAW COUNTRY WITHOUT A BILL OF RIGHTS.

That's right, Australia has no Bill of Rights.

The result of this is that in Australia citizens really cannot claim to have the right to anything, but they have been given numerous "privileges" by their elected governments.

Thus, in Australia we may possess certain specified firearms, under extremely stringent conditions, but that possession is a privilege, it is not a right.

Similarly, possession of various other objects is subject to "privilege", not to any inherent right.

These "privileges" do not stop just with ownership of certain things, they extend to actions in which citizens may wish to engage.

In respect of the possibility of the existence of legal avenues which could give some protection to the continued existence of a sword, but not necessarily ensure its ownership by any particular person, it might not be a bad idea to have a look at United Nations Agreements dealing with the preservation of important cultural heritage. I've forgotten the details, but I used an argument that included this, in a fight against some proposed NSW legislation of perhaps 15 or 16 years ago.
I suspect that a strong case could be mounted on the foundation of United Nations Agreements, that could argue against the destruction of many items of historic weaponry.

[Mark]

A quote I love (I can't remember where I read it, but I think it was on Antonio's Bladesign Forum):

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the results." :D

[Jens Nordlunde]

This subjects has been discussed before, and will no doubt come up for discussion again when other countries 'turn the screw'. Here is a link to an earlier discussion http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2658&highlight=Danish+Arms+Armour+Society
Collectors have to be registered by the police as collectors, and if they buy a sword or a knife fromt an antic dealer or an auction house they have to show their collectors certificate, or they will not get the item.
The rules in Denmark are, at the moment so, that in some towns you are not allowed to wear a normal pocketknife during the night, and the police can search you without any warning - so be warned, if you want to see the nightlife in some of the bigger Danish towns.

[VANDOO]

LAWMAKERS OFTEN LOOK AT THE LAW THEY ARE MAKEING IN ONE WAY ,FOR INSTANCE IF ONE MADMAN GOES ON A RAMPAGE WITH A SWORD THEY TRY TO COME UP WITH A LAW THAT MIGHT HAVE PREVENTED THAT ONE OCCURANCE. THEY NEVER TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THAT IT WOULD NOT HAVE STOPPED THE MADMAN IF THE LAW WAS ALREADY ON THE BOOKS OR THAT THE CRIME HAD ONLY HAPPENED ONCE IN THE LAST 100 YEARS.
WITH GUN/ SWORD/ KNIFE/ ECT. CONTROL THERE ARE USUALLY GROUPS WHO WANT MORE POWER OVER THE PEOPLE AND USE LAWMAKERS AND PEOPLE WHO ARE UNREALISTIC TO PARADE ON CAMERA FOR THE MEDIA THAT THEY CONTROL. THESE LAWS ARE ALWAYS MADE BY THE FEW FOR CONTROL AND POWER OVER THE MAJORITY.

SO THE LAWMAKERS PASS A LAW THAT IS VAGUE AND OPEN TO MANY WAYS OF INTREPTATION, PAT EACH OTHER ON THE BACK AND FORGET ABOUT IT. PERHAPS THEY WERE REASONABLE PEOPLE AND DID NOT INTEND TO ENFORCE THEIR NEW LAW ON EVERYONE , GOOD LAW ABIDING CITIZEN'S NEED NOT BE BOTHERED. MANY SUCH LAWS REMAIN ON THE BOOKS AND NEVER CAUSE A PROBLEM UNTIL SOME GROUP OR GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE OR LAWYER ,ECT. DECIDES TO USE IT TO MAKE A NAME FOR HIMSELF. THE MAKEING OF A NAME REQUIRES THAT YOU CAUSE SOMEONE (USUALLY GOOD CITIZENS) A PROBLEM THRU FINES, LAWSUITS, ARRESTS, CONFISCATION, ECT. THIS WILL ATTRACT THE PRESS AND THE PERSONS NAME BECOMES KNOWN AND IF HE WINS A LEGAL PRECIDENT IS SET AND THE GOOD PEOPLE LOSE ANOTHER FREEDOM AND PERHAPS BECAUSE IT CAN BE ENTREPRETED SEVERAL DIFFERENT WAYS MAY LOSE MORE THAN ONE FREEDOM PER CASE.

A LOCAL EXAMPLE IS A POLICE OFFICER FOUND A VAGUE LAW THAT HAD BEEN PASSED BUT NEVER ENFORCED SO HE TOOK IT UPON HIMSELF TO LAUNCH A PERSONAL CRUSADE. HIS ENTREPETATION OF THE LAW WAS THAT A DOG OR CAT COULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE LOOSE IN THE AUTOMOBILE AND HAD TO BE RESTRAINED. HE STARTED PULLING PEOPLE OVER AND GIVING TICKETS. WHEN HE HAD GIVEN ENOUGH TICKETS THE LOCAL NEWS PICKED IT UP AND AIRED IT SO NOW ALL THE POLICE HAVE TO ENFORCE THIS LAW. THE ONE GUY WHO STARTED IT STILL WRITES MOST OF THE TICKETS AS HE GOES TO THE PARKS WHERE PEOPLE COME TO WALK THEIR DOGS AND WAITS TO GIVE THEM TICKETS. HE HAS MADE A NAME FOR HIMSELF LOCALLY AND ENJOYS MAKEING PEOPLES AND DOGS LIFES A BIT MORE MISERABLE IN THE NAME OF SAFETY. I SUPPOSE SOON WE WILL BE REQUIRED TO BUY DOGGIE AND CAT CARSEATS AND STRAP THE ANIMALS IN WHEN TAKEING THEM IN AN AUTOMOBILE. I AM GLAD I HAVE A DOG AND NOT A CAT AS I SUSPECT TRYING TO STRAP IN A CAT WOULD BE DANGEROUS TO ME. :D

[A. G. Maisey]

The actual process for the drafting and passing of laws is a long drawn out and complex one, at least it is in this country---Australia--- and I imagine that what I know to be true here would also be true in many other countries.

The hands-on writing of the legislation to be brought into law is most often done by a fairly junior member of the relevant department, passed through a review process carried out by more senior people, and then submitted to the minister for approval. Often it will be bounced backwards and forth a number of times before the minister is satisfied that he can get it passed, and make no mistake about it, getting the new legislation accepted by all involved, and its politically positive impact, is what the game is all about. That proposed legislation needs to be designed to be acceptable to not only the politician who is responsible for its administration, but also to the other politicians, perhaps from different parties, upon whom he will rely to see the proposed legislation passed into law.

After such a long drawn out process a reasonable person may expect that the final draft of the legislation would reflect an attitude that was representative of the prevailing attitude in the broad community.

Regrettably, in so far as weapons related legislation is concerned, this is not always so.

The mindset of the original person who prepared the initial draft is often still evident in the final draft. In recent years these initial writers of weapons legislation in at least one state in Australia have been socially aware ladies of relatively immature years and with a minor degree in something like arts-law, or sociology.

I believe that politicians in general see the issue of possession and carriage of weapons other than firearms as a fairly minor issue, and because of this they are loathe to spend more than a bare minimum of resources on it.So it is that the original draft suffers only cosmetic changes before it becomes law.

Now, when that vague and very non-prescriptive law falls into the hands of an officer of the law, such as the one whom has been described by Barry, you create a situation that can only result in the law being badly administered, unenforced, or perhaps unenforceable, by the courts, and laughed at by the general public. When that situation has been created we have the exact opposite of what was intended when the law was brought into being:- widespread non-compliance, a loss of respect for the police, and contempt for the lawful regulation of society.

Going back a few years a law was introduced into the state of NSW , that prohibited the carriage of any bladed implement. It was directed at certain types of individual and certain areas where it was known that knives were being carried for the specific purpose of being used as weapons in crime.
Nobody could have a knife or other bladed implement in his possession in a public place without a lawful excuse for having that implement. The legislation provided an example of a lawful excuse as "being for the preparation and consumption of food".

Heavy reliance was placed on the good judgement of police officers in the administration of this law.

Some months after this law came into force trainee police officers from the police academy in a large provincial town were directed to raid the local stock auction and confiscate all knives found in the possession of people attending the auction. Most people who live in rural areas in Australia, particularly those who run stock, or who farm, habitually carry a pocket knife in a small belt pouch. The police cadets confiscated all the knives from all the farmers and graziers present at that auction, took names, and issued cautions. No prosecutions were launched..

Another incident occurred when an apprentice carpenter who had forgotten to remove his fishing basket from the boot of his car was stopped for a traffic offence. The police officer considered that it was necessary to search his vehicle, he found the knife in the fishing basket, and because that apprentice carpenter had not been fishing that day, nor did he intend going fishing that day, he was charged with being in possession of a knife without lawful excuse.

Then there was the 50 year old lady who was in the habit of carrying her large knife to and from her job in a fruit market. She used the knife to cut pumpkin and did not want to leave it at work because she had nowhere at her place of work that was a secure place to keep her property, and a previous knife had been stolen. This lady was cautioned by a police officer and the knife was confiscated, she was not charged, but she lost the knife.

These are just a few incidents that occurred when that law was introduced. The situation has now pretty much settled back to what it was before the law was introduced. Mostly people take little or no notice of it, and the police only use it as incidental to the apprehension of somebody who is acting in a socially unacceptable way. But during the first few years the law was in force, it was very badly administered by many police officers.

Because the law was non-prescriptive and largely left to the discretion of the police in its application, the predictable thing happened:- society as a whole has decided to ignore that law. When one law is treated with contempt, it is a very short step before other laws are treated with contempt. When the courts fail to convict people who have offended against the letter of the law, but not against its intent , those non-convictions can be used as precedent by people who have offended against both letter and intent of the law, leading to non-conviction of persons who should have been convicted.

Poorly drafted, non-prescriptive laws that rely in their application upon the judgement of police officers have the effect of causing widespread disrespect for the law, for those who administer it, and bring about a weakening of the fabric of society.

[spiral]

Poorly written laws from a goverment that is mostly made up of barristers is deliberate not an error.

They can interpret such a law in any way they wish. That give them greater power than if the law looked written by someone over the age of 10....

Trying to proove an undated tulwar is probably 150 years old not 90 in an antique shop or market or if stopped driving home to the average PC plod should be interesting & probably rather futile though. :eek:

WW1 Austrian, Gertman & British trophys will be officialy legal to trade.

if your wealthy enough to have a top lawyer & barrister to pay experts, {such as ourselves?} to proove its over 100 years old your probably ok, if your on legal aid or low wages, your in trouble.

"Wish i were a rich man Yabba , yabba doo, all daylong etc. etc....."

Spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I understand why you might think in this way Spiral, and quite honestly, I used to hold the same opinion.

I no longer hold that opinion as one that is universally applicable.

I think that in some instances the attitude might be:- " that's good enough for the purpose; let the courts sort it out"

I think in other cases the attitude could be:- "not politically important, we've already spent more than enough time on this; let it go as is"

In other cases---and this I know to be true--- the responsible politician doesn't even look at the report or the proposed legislation, and acts on the advice of a bureaucrat.

However, whatever the reason might be that poorly written legislation is passed into law, the end result is too often the same:- a weakening of the legal fabric that could be regarded as the primary control ensuring a well regulated society.

[Kate]

Sorry chaps there is no exemption of "antique". Even if there were, there are many of us who collect named regimental blades of WW1
Please see the Act -

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/draft/ukdsi_9780110810324_en_1

Very simple - all banned except Japanese made!

[spiral]

No thats an over simplification Kate!

Its an ammendment to the offensive weapons act, the antique exemption to this ammendment are already written in that act. ;)


The new ammended exceptions to the sword part are....

5. For the purposes of paragraph 4—

“historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past;
“insurance” means a contract of insurance or other arrangement made for the purpose of indemnifying a person or persons named in the contract or under the arrangement;
“permitted activity” means an historical re-enactment or a sporting activity;
“sporting activity” means the practising of a sport which requires the use of a weapon described in paragraph 1(r);
“third parties” includes participants in, and spectators of, a permitted activity and members of the public.


To use your own words "its that simple!" Or more complicated than it seems at first perhaps! ;)

But in 10 years time you might be right. :(

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

We need a real lawyer to expand on this point, especially when a venue has third party insurance.

“historical re-enactment” means any presentation or other event held for the purpose of re-enacting an event from the past or of illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past;

A militeria fair or exposition would include-

"illustrating conduct from a particular time or period in the past"

So as I read it, if the venue is an organised event with the necessary insurance in place the purchase and sale of ww1 and ww2 items should be okay. It means that you just cannot pick the things up anywhere anytime from anybody unless they are less than 50cm from tip to handle in a straight line? In this I can see a vain attempt to stop the opportunist use of a longish sharp sword.

[spiral]

Try BritishBlades law section Tim, it full of lawyers & policemen as well as the commoners who have been discusimg this for months. ;)

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

Thanks for that. I gave it a try. Ignoring all the emotional stuff one good thing I could glean from ask a COP is that COPS work on discretion. So at my next militeria fair of which there are two organisers, held roughly quarterly in my local. Both almost adjacent to the respective COP shop. When I attend the next event I will see if the police raid it like a speakeasy. There will be one coming up soon i'll pass on my findings. If I a not in chains :shrug: .

[spiral]

Good, glad it helped Tim,

Cops do work on discretion, but the cops on that forum collect knives, most police dont.

They will let off a fisherman or camper on his way home with a fixed blade, many police wont, or ignore a leatherman as long as your not wearing a basball cap & talking with a Liverpool accent.

But good luck! I would love this law not to be inforced, but somehow I doubt it in the long run.

PCs have arrest quotas to fill know a days & most police dont like knives never mind swords.

Spiral

[kronckew]

OK, here it is the day after doomsday1 with doomsday2 in October.

has anyone seen the official law yet? all i can find is the 'proposed' law, and the joke 'consultation'.

i'm assuming that in spite of that, all vendors are assuming the worst and refusing to sell anything (like ebay) till it gets clarified and a bit clearer than the current mud...

i see the home office says

1. 'don't ask us, we just make the law, we don't interpret it - ask your solicitor'.
2. the solicitors say, don't know, we haven't seen the final law yet, we'll have to ask the home office.
3. goto 1

i still do not see why they wasted all that time on a new law that they themselves admit was covered by earlier legislation. i know they have better things to do, i just wish they knew they did.

[Mark]

The "sport" exception is interesting. It presumably is aimed at rapier & sabre fencing, but it should cover just about any martial art with a weapons for, no? Iaito, bando, escrima, selat, etc., etc. What does paragraph 1(r) describe?

Also, I wonder how much "activity" is required in order to be considered "sporting activity?" Maybe if you put on warm-ups and take your swords out back or down into the cellar and swing it a few times you are OK. Specify in a sale that it is for use in "sporting activity." Vague language is a two-way street, fortunately. :)

[spiral]

Mark , Sport covers most publicliy insured martial arts venues & teaching groups I would say, But vagnes of law which might be usefull in USA, means in England, you can be arrested for nearly any curved sword & a judge will decide & direct a jury in the manner he see fit.

Thats why today carrying a Leatherman in England gets one arrested for carrying an offensive weapon. {because a judge directed it so as a locking blade equaeled a fixed blade & was therfore illegal.} {Sadley 95% of police enforce the law in that manner as well.}

I have a 50 year old, one inch long blade mechanikal locking knife {by an unusual patented design.} that fits on a key ring & that i use to open parcels. It is illegal to carry outside my front door in the UK.

Spiral

[spiral]

Heres some more info on the new law from the UK knife collectors & traders association.

spiral

linky (http://www.akct.org/page29.html)

[wolviex]

Buhahaha - this is England. If you're asking what will be banned next, here is the answer:

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/norfolk/7334973.stm)


And by the way. According to the explanation, provided by the link above, all swords over 100 years old (so labeled as antique) are legal, aren't they? The other thing is to prove their age..., but it doesn't mean end of collecting then.

regards!

[Mark]

They do the same thing in the US, depending on which way the political wind blows and whose courtroom you are in. Interpret broadly or narrowly, depending on what social engineering result you are after. We may have more lee-way for attorney argument to swing things one way or the other, dispite what the judge wants.

Mark , Sport covers most publicliy insured martial arts venues & teaching groups I would say, But vagnes of law which might be usefull in USA, means in England, you can be arrested for nearly any curved sword & a judge will decide & direct a jury in the manner he see fit.

Thats why today carrying a Leatherman in England gets one arrested for carrying an offensive weapon. {because a judge directed it so as a locking blade equaeled a fixed blade & was therfore illegal.} {Sadley 95% of police enforce the law in that manner as well.}

I have a 50 year old, one inch long blade mechanikal locking knife {by an unusual patented design.} that fits on a key ring & that i use to open parcels. It is illegal to carry outside my front door in the UK.

Spiral

[Lew]

Soon the moron lawmakers will ban cricket bats, broom handles,hammers,pointy sticks and what ever else that can be used to do bodily harm :mad: You will always have a problem with gangs and hot headed young people who decide to settle their differences through violence. Making collectors of historical arms into criminals will not stop the trouble makers they will always find a way to the crime. I feel the law makers in the UK are slowly slipping down a dangerous slope here. You see how effectively the switch blade ban of the 1950s here in the USA worked gang members no longer use them they have graduated to 9mm pistols and assaut rifles :rolleyes: :eek:

Lew

[kronckew]

guns are of course illegal for the common man over here, with few exceptions; two thugs break into your home for the second time in as many weeks & you shoot one of them, you get to go away for a few years, even tho they had baseball bats they intended to use on you. catch a burglar about to enter your childs room & grab a steak knife out of the sink as you both go thru the kitchen as he tries to get away by hitting & kicking you & you stab him, it's assault with a deadly weapon and possession of an offensive weapon for you. the criminal in these can also sue you for damages sustained during the commission of your illegal assault on them. (the first case, after the farmer got out of jail, his 'victim' who had been shot in the leg sued him for loss of earnings in his career as a burglar, and may have won except he was filmed running across a road to get to court - not quite as disabled as his cane & poorly leg performance in court was supposed to show - that was too much even for the liberal press here & he dropped the case after being laughed at by all)

oh, and since the ban on firearms, they cannot understand why the use of them in crimes continues to rise sharply.

[josh stout]

I think the American oversupply of guns, particularly in the hands of teenage boys is nutty, but I can see that the nuttiness can go the other way. Is there no way to win a fight legally in England?

Anyway, I was glad to see that anything over 100 years is exempt. There are so many things that are "early 20th/late 19th C." that I am sure there will be a sudden switch to things being listed simply a late 19th c.

What happens over time? In 2050 will all the WWII stuff be legal? Is the WWI stuff about to become legal?

Is a pedeng larus a straight or curved sword? what about a kris with lots of curves?

So an antique with a new handle is still an antique, how far does that go? What if only the handle is old? What if it is only a one nail?

Laws in general have an inherent problem with absurdity given they are absolute rules in a relativistic universe, but this one seems more absurd than most.
josh

[spiral]

I didnt realise it worked the same way there Mark...cheers.


Josh i think the problem will be if ebay or police decide to say you have to proove a sword is over 100years old, {that is a rolling date, thats why i got rid of many of my. ww2 issue dated/marked kukris last year by trading them for ww1 ones.} {still kept one speiceim of each main type for ww2 issue of course .] Plus the fact in 5 years time, I figure anything ww1 dated will get magnificent premiums with all the remberance stuff & ww1 anniversaries.

In England you can only defend yourself on your own property if you are attacked, if the burglar tries to escape you are supposed to let them. you can only stab, chop or otherwise ruin thier day for them if your are under attack & "fear for your life or that of others."

Sadley the people who get arrested & covicted for seriosly damaging burglars probably didnt know that.


Spiral

[BBJW]

I think the American oversupply of guns, particularly in the hands of teenage boys is nutty, but I can see that the nuttiness can go the other way. Is there no way to win a fight legally in England?


most.
josh

It is illegal for "teenage boys" (under 18) to buy handguns, but not rifles or shotguns. Most guns used in crime are obtained outside the law. There is no more an oversupply of guns here than an oversupply of swords (or axes, hammers, etc.) in the UK. Thank God for the 2nd Amendment!

bbjw

[kronckew]

just heard there is to be an amendment to the silliest part of the law, in that countries other than japan who make swords by 'traditional methods' are also to be exempted.

Law Linky (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/draft/em/ukdsiem_9780110817774_en.pdf)

still written in the obscure ancient legalese dialect, but at least they are showing a bit of an 'oops, we screwed up' attitude.

[katana]

Unfortunately recent events in the UK may cause more 'knee jerk' legislation with knives and knife collecting.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/seven-killed-in-a-brutal-24-hours-865254.html

Regards David

[Lew]

Unfortunately recent events in the UK may cause more 'knee jerk' legislation with knives and knife collecting.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/seven-killed-in-a-brutal-24-hours-865254.html

Regards David

David

It seems that this crimes are being committed with ordinary kitchen knives and by teenagers so hopefully your law makers will realize this and not get too crazy.

[katana]

Hi Lew,
Hopefully you are right.

There have been televised debates, recently, on the issues of knife and gun crime in Britain. A 'political' commitee were interviewing youth workers, people involved in 'community schemes' etc. to gain insight into what is happening 'in the street'. Fortunately the interviewees all had ideas based on common sense and their experiences. They collectively saw 'gang culture' (one of the main reasons for the increase in knife/gun crime) as the main factor, and that it was occuring due to 'Social issues'.... the root cause. There was no input that increased legislation would 'help' the situation.

Hopefully, 'the word on the street' is being listened to, by those that can do something about it.

Regards David

[David]

Well, they could ban ALL knives over there, but i'm sure it would not be too long before they would see the first in a series of "spork" killings. :rolleyes:

[kronckew]

the news media and the police are hyping it up by reporting that the govt. wants all people found carrying a knife to go to jail. the police conveniently promoted the 'sword ban' without mentioning the exemptions as they wanted every one to be turned in, illegal or not. the news always leave out the word illegal when mentioning carrying knives, that is the govt. & politicians usually say 'the illegal carrying of knives' or some such qualification, where the liberal media prefer simplify it by implying all carriage is illegal. it is not.

any non-locking folding knife with an edge length under three inches can be carried for whatever reason you deem necessary by someone over the age of 18; a fixed, or locking folding knife, or one over 3in. edge can be carried if you have a reason acceptable to the police, like you are fishing, on the way to work, where you need it to open boxes, etc. (note it is the police who decide if a reason is acceptable, not you).

having said that, i'll not take any of my legal little folders into london as the 'security' manning the metal detectors on train and subway stations probably can't use a ruler even if they knew the law and if they confiscate it, even in error, it's gone. like in the states, they don't man them with their brightest sparks. rulz iz rulz.

as someone mentioned earlier, in the elizabethan age when most people wore knives routinely, most murders were done with a cudgel.

luckily i am old and infirm and require a walking stick to enable me to walk at all.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Knobkerrie.jpg NOT :D

[Rumpel]

Hi all,

I was just wondering if there's been any update on this. I'm going to Morocco tomorrow, and am wondering what the likelihood of me being stopped at customs on my return with, say, :

a) an antique saif/nimcha
b) a new, but 'handmade' saif/nimcha
c) a takouba

would be, and whether the outcome would be positive (for me :) ).

I've printed out the amendment posted above, to hand to any officious customs types, but was wondering if there's anything more conclusive I could show them.

Thanks,

Rumpel

[ALEX]

Rumpel, hopefully you will find something nice during your trip, and be able to bring it home. I'd certainly talk to customs BEFORE, especially if you intend to bring a sword. Do not trust rumours - go to the source. Also, make sure you have a receipt stating the provenance, age, etc. and inquire for export authorisation if possible or required. Good luck.

On the note of this thread, here is an interesting article. I am sure there would be more people to advocate the tougher edged weapons laws:-)

[Lew]

Ok that sword does not look like a 30,000 pound antique more like a knock off of a gunto sword to me and if the sword was sharp she would have more than a gash. Yes it is terrible but of of course the media must embelish the facts ;)

Lew

[Battara]

Perhaps I'm a crazy American, but if blades were all banned, clubbings would rise.

[Gavin Nugent]

Perhaps I'm a crazy American, but if blades were all banned, clubbings would rise.

Never ever take a sword or a club to a gun fight.......

[kronckew]

we have lost of clubbers here in theUK.
http://www.globaleye.org.uk/secondary_autumn04/oncamera/images/clubbers2.jpg

aside from perps using more firearms, secure in the knowledge that their victims will almost surely be unarmed, the 'cool' thing to use as a weapon is furry and four legged.

http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09/pitbull2REX_415x275.jpg

of course one should never bring a dog to a hyena fight.

http://rookery2.viary.com/storagev12/1053500/1053991_e7bd_625x1000.jpg

and never bring a hyena to a lion fight

http://rookery2.viary.com/storagev12/1054000/1054018_3d78_625x1000.jpg

and never bring a lion to a liger fight,

http://z.about.com/d/urbanlegends/1/0/v/B/liger1_sm.jpg

and so on, ad nauseum.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1177/1432617877_599f295249.jpg

the weapon is not important, it's the mind behind it's control that is dangerous, not the tool - well, maybe the t-rex...

[Mefidk]

Just following up on the legal consequences in Denmark of carrying a knife. Just recently a man was stopped by police here for a routine check and it was found that he had two hobby knives in the back of his car. These knives were used at work to open cardboard boxes and he had forgotten that they were there. This is very easy to do, I know my wife often comes home with one of these in her pocket because she has been opening boxes last thing before the shop shuts and forgets she has put a knife in her pocket.
For the man with the hobby knife in his car the consequences were to my mind ludicrously serious. Not only did he receive a fine and a criminal record, he was also sentenced to one week in prison.
I do not believe there was any doubt about the truthfulness of the man's claims, nor was he acting in any anti-social manner. So he was just unlucky and fell foul of similar poorly thought through legislation to that we see from the UK.

Collectors here can (I believe) still transport weapons to and from meetings if they have a license, but it is getting very difficult to obtain weapons any other way. The argument from the postal services is that their staff do not have these weapons licenses so they cannot legally carry swords or knives. Some couriers do still carry weapons but this is expensive and those that specialise in this are very expensive indeed. This begins to make it very difficult for collectors on a limited budget. This is especially difficult for ethnographic weapons since there precious few of these knocking around at the weapons fairs I've been to here in DK, so almost all of my purchases come from abroad and need to be carried by post or courier!

All in all this is beginning to feel like a difficult hobby to pursue in Denmark :(