Preservation of Craftsmanship at National Level

[Antonio Cejunior]

Greetings all,

The reading of the Timonium paper on Mark Bowditch's page has prompted me to think not about collections only but what steps can be taken in order to further
preserve the tradition of sword making in Aranyik, Thailand, in the Philippines, as well as in Indonesia and India.

Allow me to explain futher. In my very modest narrative on

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/images/aranyik-banner.jpg (http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/visit.aranyik.htm)

I have noticed that everyone is trying to survive by making different and more commercial stuff such as bowies, katanas, etc.
It is an entirely private venture with possibly no connections between Museums and smiths, hence that most things are just very simple swords aiming for no particular public (my humble opinion).

The thing is that I believe there might be a small hope that Governments or even Private Foundations may provide a grant that allow these smiths to survive doing what they know best. This may of course require some evolution and change of design appearence the same way Jim Thompson revolutionized the silk industry in Thailand.

Let's say that while in Japan you have an organization that cares and strtuctures the making of Japanese swords, classifies them and keeps them, there is nothing out of Japan like this, except Solingen perhaps, which to some extent represents the condemnation to extinction into a matter of time for it becomes an obsolete craft that is overlooked, until Museums give them enough significance and quality produced pieces become available to the general public in hotel shops and slowly spreading into specialty craft shops taken as decorative items.

Let me be pragmatic enough. I view that the continuity of the craft requires a commercial strategy based on quality as an alternative to the present quantity. In other words, while the antiques market continues to exist, I find it to be necessary to create the antiques of the future, which will undoubtly arise from a different context.

I recall that in 1995 I came out in the open to speak about the need for a Creative Center in Macau, a strategic move using the multi-cultural context of Macau to become the creative software for the mainland China resources, as we were able to better discern, due to a different cultural context and cultural heritage from mainland China, which would allow for the redesigning of, i.e. Chinese furniture, beauty acessories, silk designs and so forth.

It was indeed created in the year 2000, as Center of Creative Industries, but it was entirely misunderstood. It caters for a list of designers and artists not the relationship of an ideas factory, if I may say so, to revolutionize what is not being spread.

This was not what I had in mind.

Incurring into the risk of boring you all, I would like to express my concern on the future and of the future of the past, which cannot rely by itself on the most commendable work of collectors or even of Museums, but on what the Medici did during the Rennaissance: Il Mecennato. Patronage, sponsorship.

How this could be achieved through the governments of each of the countries mentioned is, I hope not a fight against windmills.

Your precious comments?

[VANDOO]

THE ONLY PLACE THAT I KNOW OF THAT HAS A PROGRAM TO PROMOTE AND HELP FUND CRAFTSMEN OF NOTE IS JAPAN. THEY HAVE MANY PEOPLE WHO EXCEL IN MANY CRAFTS SUCH AS PAPER MAKING, CALIGRAPHY, CERAMICS, ECT. THEY ARE JUDGED AND IF WORTHY DESIGNATED AS NATIONAL TREASURES FOR LIFE. I DON'T KNOW WHAT GRANTS OR FUNDING GOES WITH THAT HONOR BUT IT WOULD HELP THEM SELL THEIR CRAFTS IF NOTHING ELSE. I DON'T KNOW IF THERE ARE ANY SWORD MAKERS AMONG THAT GROUP AS I FEAR MANY OF JAPANS OLD CRAFTS HAVE DISSAPEARED AS HAS HAPPENED ELSEWHERE.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Thank you Vandoo.

In fact Japan has the National Living Treasure and it also applies to sword makers and other crafts.

Portugal also has a program through the Gulbenkian Foundation (http://www.gulbenkian.pt/english/home.asp) but it does not apply to sword making and this art has disappeared in Portugal.

[tom hyle]

Many if not most large sovereign polities (ie "countries" etc.) have such programs, though not as extensive etc. as the Japanese one. I don't know that these are at all the way to preserve real traditions, though, but more, as I see happen in institution after institution, some (usually dogmatized, of course) institutional concept of them. A great example is "Western" academia/music establishment trying to study the blues; trying to define it and ending up saying things like "the blues is a 12 bar music in key X with repetitive themes.....(etc.)" which prompted Willie Dixon to say "That is a white, college definition of the blues....(and thus not at all valid or useful to actually understanding the blues which must be understood from the inside; the inside is a culture that doesn't have "bars" or "keys" in the "Western" sense, yet Euro/academic culture talks as if they have defined it and confined it with their foriegn terms, their nonunderstanding outside definition, which in practical reality is used to say this or that is not "real" blues.)" A bit unclear, perhaps, but my concern over this sort of institutionalization of knowledge, etc. Also, I say, as always, that weapon cutlery is a living art, and its supposed obsolescence is an "over-culture" (mis)perception, and is "news" to a great number of living working cutlers, living martial artists, and ordinary people who are sword owners.

[Gt Obach]

I thought japan had a sort of tradition of "deadly elegance"..... and that you could be summoned by the ruler to prove your steel (or lose your head)

-it could be that you need the formative levels of sword culture before society will embrace the idea of a "national treasure".
-I see the "National treasure" idea as the pinnacle of the institution.... now what were the roots or seeds that grew?
- my point is that you can't build a pyramid by starting at the top.... I would think you need a good base..... and if the base is already there.....then progress can be nudged along !!

say in the instance of the patternweld keris blades..... it seems that they're smiths still use the old ways... and they're still part of the culture and beliefs....
-- i would think that a national treasure idea could take hold here... ?

oh well.... just thought i'd throw some ideas out there.... bout the infrastructure of such an institution


Greg

[tom hyle]

And mind you, not neccessarily government sponsorship, but over-culture/academic interest of some type is often the only thing (other than certain layers in the soil ;) ) that ends up preserving any knowledge about a thing. However, a surprising amount of knowledge often lives at a folkloric level that is often unfortuneately dismissed by over culture experts as "legend" urban or otherwise, as not presented in the proper way by the proper person to suit the rules of that tribe, or as "not real blues (bowie knife, Japanese sword, insert category) because it doesn't fit our definition." Also, it does seem to me there is an insidiousness in the way it does its preserving; by replacing deep and broad genuine and ancient traditions with its often shallow and outside understanding gleaned from studying a subject with a (relatively) few socially designated experts for perhaps a matter of a few decades, or at very most the two or three centuries in which the overculture has been at the point of advancement (in its own terms; wealth and magic, mostly) to have begun to take more of an interest in other cultures than what can be gotten from them in direct material or economic terms and how.

[Tim Simmons]

Does this arguement not depend on what you call craftsmanship.The concepts of achievment and artistic merit depending on the weath and education and prejudice of a questionable elite.Tim

[Mark]

This is actually a rather depressing issue. Traditional crafts, and dare I say pride in the craftsmanship per se, often gets dropped in favor of commercial considerations. As Antonio said, quantity over quality. I doubt that this is a conscious choice by the craftsment, but they have to feed themselves and their families. This is where some sort of institutional support would be of great benefit. The time was in Burma, Thailand and Laos (and I am sure other places, but these are the ones I happen to know a little about), it was royal patronage that kept the top-quality craftsmanship alive, essentially by commissioning and buying regular amounts of the stuff. Now, there are no patrons, and so the craftsman is left with little choice but to follow the actual market, which in the case of something like sword crafting is the tourist or martial arts market. Neither has much need for quality, aside from pleasing looks, and even then the standards can be pretty low.

From what I know about Aranyik, the people of that town gave their lives defending a strategically critical resource (the weapons industry, including the smiths themselves), during the last and most devastating Burmese invasion, fighting to the last while the capital surrendered. I should think that would merit some acknowledgement of the people, and the craft for which they sacrificed themselves. Perhaps this is an avenue by which to propose some sort of cultural heritage program to support the traditional (and quality) craft of sword making, at least in Thailand.

Of course, sword crafting is not the only industry to suffer. In Burma certain schools of ivory carving have completely died out for lack of patronage, and now their styles only survive through the work of imitators without a direct link to the tradition. Other schools remain, but are not what they once were in terms of quality.

I wish that I had an answer, but this is something that must come from within a culture, as Tom said, though outside help would certainly make it grow stronger once it has started.

[tom hyle]

that's a point, Tim, as far as the art of fance goes, though not 100% I must say, and in two aspects (let's see if I can remember the second by the time I've said the first :o ): one is that rural tribes with no ruling class, etc. as well as the poor within stratified tribes, often adorn themselves and each other and their goods very lavishly; two is that "the concepts of acheivement and artistic merit depending on the wealth and education and predjudice of a questionable elite" (wow; I LIKE that!!) is, as Tim seems to hint at awareness of (?) is not the only standard or perspective of art, or even of craftsmanship.
As far as the art of design and construction go, of course there are expenses, but they are nowhere near the factor they are in the art of fance. Much high quality work is and has been produced relatively cheaply by traditional people for their own use.

[Tim Simmons]

In a nutshell Tom :)

[Battara]

As for the Philippines, there are still folks that make small knives under their homes in Batangas, but for the quality of the past, say, around the turn of the 20c, well, that is another story. There are still those who make laminated blades in Sulu, but very few and the quality does not compare to that of a century ago. Those in Mindanano are not even laminated from what I have seen, though some of the better gold and silver fittings are of some quality. Again for consumption, although programs in Marawi city associated with the university there offer some support.

Outside of something like what Japan has, these arts die because they are no longer needed. Moros value their machine guns now like their ancestors did swords and bolos. Why use a sword when a gun is more effective? And thus the dilema.

Personally, I guess it may be some folks like me that keep some of the tradition alive. Problem is that although I am part Filipino, I was not born nor raised in the PI and thus am somewhat removed from the cultural roots of the art, even though I am an artist (as well as a minister fulltime) and do what I do in silver, gold, etc. by studying what those artists and craftspeople have done before me. This is one of the reasons I do restorations - I wish to restore some semblence of original dignity to these artifacts, and thus I research the work done from a specific tribe or region to bring back the spirit and elegance to a piece as best as I can. Even then, I am still learning and feel myself humbled when comparing my work with these unsung masters of the past who have been studying their craft for more decades than I.

If those wealthy enough or those in government (often the same thing) could set up competitions and prizes for judging crafts in the PI like in Japan, that might be a better avenue for a poor country like the PI. Unfortunately, outside of what Emelda Marcos did, the country has more problems on its plate than sponsoring craftmenship. Thus I collect, grieve for the past lost, and play my meager part in hopes that something will live on. May Bahala forgive us for our squandering of human resources and living treasures. :(

[tom hyle]

This is actually a rather depressing issue. Traditional crafts, and dare I say pride in the craftsmanship per se, often gets dropped in favor of commercial considerations. As Antonio said, quantity over quality. I doubt that this is a conscious choice by the craftsment, but they have to feed themselves and their families.

I wish that I had an answer, but this is something that must come from within a culture, as Tom said, though outside help would certainly make it grow stronger once it has started.

Mark, You must've posted at the same time as my imediately previous post (to thhis one). I so agree with and am moved by all you've said here that I've paused in reading the thread to reply. Actually most craftsmen are intensly aware of the dichotomy of pulls on both the quality/true traditional fanciness of our work, and on the subjects of our work (ex will I make a superb traditional dha with hundreds of hours of carving on an incredibly finely polished and intricate hilt, that it will be very hard to find someone who can afford, or will I make a bunch of simpler, perhaps even lower quality in using terms, ones that I can readily sell all I make of? It's the issue of what artists call "selling out", and of course, in the real world, it is what many have to do to survive, while a few of great strength and vitality can outproduce and somehow outshine society's disaproval or unwillingness to pay for the heavy costs of true fine fine traditional tradional hand processes, and a few particularly skillful, personable artists using particularly socially accepted methods (and the occasional though very rare, actual non-scene outsider) get rich and famous, making fance, which has dictates, too, and limitting ones; mostly of style, fads, what have you, etc., rather than of cost, although some of the very fancy stuff I've seen made had all sorts of "cut corner" penny pinchingness evident, often particularly when it comes to "field" usefulness. oh, the art and craftsmanship market is a wild thing. I did a bunch of work in fancy custom wood and paint (too much for my health though), you definitely get a perspective; the issue is very much on the minds of many craftsmen; we talk with each other about it often, actually.

[tom hyle]

BTW, I don't know about Itally, but is there still Johan Schmiddberger (spelling?) in Austria(? I think?) ? I think he is underwritten on government supported, or at least recognized, and works at an ancient forge, AFAIK...................I had an "oh-no second" as I shut my computer down, but then I had to go help my sister paint her house; I don't know where I got Itally from; I think I thought Antonio was there....

[Antonio Cejunior]

A great example is "Western" academia/music establishment trying to study the blues; trying to define it and ending up saying things like "the blues is a 12 bar music in key X with repetitive themes.....(etc.)" which prompted Willie Dixon to say "That is a white, college definition of the blues....(and thus not at all valid or useful to actually understanding the blues which must be understood from the inside; the inside is a culture that doesn't have "bars" or "keys" in the "Western" sense, yet Euro/academic culture talks as if they have defined it and confined it with their foriegn terms, their nonunderstanding outside definition, which in practical reality is used to say this or that is not "real" blues.)" A bit unclear, perhaps, but my concern over this sort of institutionalization of knowledge, etc. Also, I say, as always, that weapon cutlery is a living art, and its supposed obsolescence is an "over-culture" (mis)perception, and is "news" to a great number of living working cutlers, living martial artists, and ordinary people who are sword owners.
I fully agree :)
Please note that my main intention is to bring about a constructive discussion about allowing things to exist through hybrid methods as blues itself know no bars but had records and now have CDs :)

[fearn]

Hi Antonio,

There are models other than the Living Treasures and national foundations. For instance:

I'd point to a phenomenon that has revived interest in the essentially dead western martial arts, and which has given birth to a large sword-making industry: the reenactment movement. Groups like the Society for Creative Anachronisms, Living History, etc. (including Civial War reenactors) have created multiple industries feeding their needs for accurate replicas, and for the materials to make them.

In places with an emergent middle class (parts of Thailand, Indonesia, PI, etc), encouraging reenactors might be a good way of encouraging people to get back into weapons making. This could be in the context of the Thai-Burmese wars (take your pick), the many conflicts within Indonesia, or PI, etc. Getting people interested in arming themselves as their ancestors did and restaging critical battles might not be entirely bad, especially if they keep the blades dull and the guns fire blanks :)...

After all, if Americans can start the SCA from books (reviving an extinct martial tradition with some success) then it might be a lot easier in a place where the traditions are simply moribund.

I'd also point to the Himalayn Imports model (paying native smiths to make traditional blades for a largely foreign market) as another way to go.

My 0.02 cents,

Fearn

[Antonio Cejunior]

Greetings Fern,

Thanks for your contribution. I just raised the issue, have no solution though :(
But I guess what can work in a culture may not necessarily be the answer to another.

Tom is very right concerning the dangers of lack fo understanding between the outside and the inside. The outside being the extrinsic power(s) that could help but have no real and natural understanding of the inside thus running the risk of destroying something.
The reverse, not doing anything, is also watching something extinguishing itself, as Battara puts it concerning the Philippines.

I think what is on debate is how to help without spoiling. Is this possible with Museums work, conferences, etc?
I found that an exhibition organized in Macau 1999 or 2000 named The Fire and the Forge (http://www.arscives.com/gallery/en/fireandforge/default.htm)saw 80 per cent of the swords sold on the first day and the rest on the second day. None of the people who bought them were collectors, and there were ladies among the buyers.

In other words, there is hope and a generous amount of people here is quite oepn and without prejudice. That is a good beginning :)

[VANDOO]

IT WOULD BE NECESSARY TO FIND PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTOOD THE CRAFT TO JUDGE IT BE IT SWORDS OR CERAMICS. A KING MIGHT BE A POOR JUDGE OF BLACKSMITHING SO LET THE MASTER BLACKSMITHS JUDGE NOT THE ELITE. THE OTHER PROBLEM IS WHEN ONE MAN IS JUDGED A NATIONAL TREASURE HIS WORKS MAY BE SOUGHT BUT HIS APPRENTICES HELD IN DISDAIN, SO WHEN THE MASTER PASSES THE APRENTICE MUST FIND OTHER WORK TO LIVE. IN ITALY THERE IS A VILLAGE CALLED PERENSANTIA (MAY HAVE MISPELLED) IT HAS BEEN A CENTER FOR FINE MARBLE CARVINGS FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, THE OLD CARVERS WERE DIEING AND THERE WERE NOT ENOUGH YOUNG APPRENTICES TO REPLACE THEM. I READ ABOUT IT YEARS AGO SO DON'T KNOW IF THE TRADITION STILL GOES ON OR NOT. ANOTHER THING CUTTING BACK ON FINE ITALIAN MARBLE CARVINGS IS THE USE OF CAST STATUES AND CARVING FROM VERY SOFT ROCK THEN COATED TO REPLACE ERODED ARCHITECTUAL STATUARY. IF IT IS DIFFICULT TO KEEP A OLD CRAFT THAT IS STILL IN USE TODAY, IT WOULD BE MORE DIFFICULT TO KEEP SOMETHING THAT IS NO LONGER PART OF THE TIMES GOING. VERY HIGH QUALITY EDGED WEAPONS AND ARMOR OF ALL KINDS COME TO MIND :(
ONE WAY TO KEEP SOMETHING GOING IS TO PROMOTE IT AND GENERATE A DEMAND AND MARKET FOR THE ITEM AND SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE PROPERLY TRAINED AND QUALITY MANINTAINED. ANOTHER IS TO HAVE A CULTURAL TRADITION AND TO SEE THAT IT IS KEPT AND HONERED THROUGH THE YEARS, THE KERIS AND SAMURAI SWORDS COME TO MIND HERE.

[Mark]

Coincidentally, I was reading a book on Thai crafts today, and came across mention of the increase in patronage of the silverworking craftsmen by the royal family and the wealthier businessmen. It apparently has become a kind of "keeping up with the Jones," with businessment commissioning large decorated bowls and the like, and donating them to temples for prominant display. It was good to read that the wonderful Thai silversmiths were finding a way to fully express their talents. Maybe swords are next?

[tom hyle]

Maybe they've already "been there, done that" and that's what's up with the somewhat mysterious "temple swords", too; it might be an existent revivifiable thing.....

[Ann Feuerbach]

FYI, I heard that the US government now has a very new grant program to give money to places to help support tradtional craft production. I plan to find out more about it. I think they have supported work in China, so craft knowledge is not lost. :)

[ariel]

I guess it's in a large measure a "supply and demand" issue. Silver bowls, carved wood, carpets etc. enjoy wide demand because of their universal decorative potential and wide appeal to a large clientele. Swords, on the other hand, have very narrow client base and, most importantly, have major emphasis on the blade. Art lovers would be happy to purchase intricately-designed scabbards and handles without blades in them. Thus, the decorative component is preserved, but there is no place for the swordsmith in this food chain.
Let's admit it: the utilitarian purpose of the sword is lost forever and the tradition of real swordmaking vanishes as we speak. Governtmental and NG organisations can pour (or trickle) money into this industry until they are blue in the face, but if nobody buys the stuff even the trickle will dry up.
By the same token, the art of making horse whips, washing boards and chastity belts is also unlikely to flourish.
As Bill Clinton used to say, "It's the economy, stupid!"

[tom hyle]

Oh, Ariel, I must so disagree. The sword lives; it can never be obsolete as an interpersonal weapon, or even as a tool for the wild human (who may one day be abolished, but isn't yet). It is an effective weapon. A gun, for instance, is mainly superior in range, and littel moreso than a bow, in practical terms of most fighting. Did the bow obsolete the sword? I've no doubt someone thought it did, and in battle field terms the sword is rarely a main military weapon, but for self/home defence, etc. it can never be obsolete if humans have hands to hold it.
Also, some of the finest swords and blades ever made are being made right now in N America, and over the last 1/2 century it has grown tremendously, along with sword fighting martial arts training.
Also, whips and chastity belts going out of style? What internet did you get here over? :D
Please don't mistake my disagreement and even that bit of playfulness for disrespect.

[fearn]

Hi Ariel,

Since I fairly regularly browse Museum Replicas, I also have to disagree.

Now, you're fully right that swords have no place on the modern battlefield. On the other hand, martial arts and reenacting are large and growing hobbies, and someone has to feed their insatiable demand for weapons, arms, armour, and accoutrements.

A bigger problem is keeping those (insert two lines of censored language) Chinese factories from flooding any market that opens up. You know the ones I mean, those who flood eBay with cheap swords with $80 shipping fees....

After all, were I buying a dha or a ilwoon, I'd like to know that my money helped some smith keep up the tradition, rather than financing some Shanghai factory owners' fourth Hummer.

Fearn

[Rivkin]

I used to be very interested in building ship models. While these guys are enormously beautiful, and have a wide appeal, nevertheless - ship modeling died on my own eyes.

First of all it was replaced by mostly machine made models, that looked 50% worse, but costed just 5% or the real thing. Than the whole industry went to China, with an exception of a few guys who make 10,000$+ models for museums and a few very rich buyers.

Why Stradevarius is still the best out there ? Same story - semi-mass production, multiplayed by the high costs of manual labor, multiplayed by non-growing demand.

We must remember that in the past centuries a lot of artisans had a choise in between of being a starving peasant, spending all his life in the field, or to be a less starving (but still very poor) artisan. And many were ready to sacrifice many years of apprenticeship in order to get there.

This epoch is gone. Manual labor will never get to its past heights - third world's labor force is mostly unskilled and the first world's labor force is too expensive.

[ariel]

Exactly right! The market favors cheap stuff.
I would guess that 99% of amateur martial artists buy cheap but functional replicas made in Taiwan, China etc and do not care about any preservation issues.
A tiny fraction of high-class martial arts afficionados buy custom made blades and even smaller fraction collects the real stuff.
All of them train with wooden/bamboo/plastic sticks being concerned about the safety of both the weapon and the opponent.
Thus, the entire demand for martial arts swords of whatever kind can be satisfied with a single mass-production outfit. Indians can do it now but the Chinese will take over in no time. And that is the end of the tradition, whether we like it or not.
Such an outcome does not make me unhappy since I collect only real stuff. I know that many people will be very sad and I sympathize with them. No offence meant but to each his own.

[Mark]

My hope would be that the sword would return as a status symbol, and/or as a symbol of the connection and appreciation of heritage, in those areas where currently it is not so viewed. I think that the status of the keris in Malaysia is a good example of how a smithing tradition can retain relevance in the modern age. And of course, the nihonto enjoys a similar place in the culture of Japan, but that is what started this discussion.

[tom hyle]

Actually, I think it is the third world that still has the skills. The problem with the overculture, or why swords are "dead" in it, is that it, as a social tenet, considers them dead, considers closerange weapons barbaric, obsolete (this is not always a logical value judgement; they're not technical/magical enough to be nobsolete to the overculture), and primitive, thus it has a force of disarmament toward edged weapons (in addition to its general force of personal disarmament) that tends to quash the market (growing, living, but certainly not what it was 300, 400 years ago, at least relative to populations....), while it's workers are typically (this is insidious, too, IMHO) and increasingly highly specialized, and while highly skilled in the standard practices of their specialties, are discouraged (by market forces) from imaginativeness and from fanatical craftsmanship, and also, are intrinsically isolated from other skills. And the skills, abilities, and lore (knowledge) of making (using) quality swords is not one of the highly valued/often highly paid feilds in said culture, so it exists, and will exist partly/largely as what FC called a "surrogate activity"; the best work and ideas and discoveries and artisans will intrinsically come out of the hobby feild; the amateurs, who work for love, not money. Thus, for instance, it may well be that the only people building truly quality ship models now are people with sharp knives and tiny saws who love it so much they make the whole thing up out of some wood.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Gentlemen,

I feel so happy to be in this Forum. :)
You all are wonderful people each one very unique.

I threw in this theme and have been following it as close as possible. Not intervening is not lack of interest but viewing and thinking.

I would think that on such topics there are the first issues that are what we call in Portuguese as breaking the stone, which is brainstorming.

Then I guess we should go into analysing the issues, which is actually putting forth different scenarios with different measures as much as possible native to the context.

Later it would be time to sumarize everything by discussing how to come up with ideas for measures or just simply conclude there are no measures to be taken...

Shall we proceed? :)
Thank you all.

[tom hyle]

Then I guess we should go into analysing the issues, which is actually putting forth different scenarios with different measures as much as possible native to the context

Thank you all.

This is similar to Ariel's concern about the Chinese making reproduction swords from other cultures, yes? To me, in a way, it's no big deal, because I am interested in swords; and it is not oldness or some impossible ideal of cultural purity, BTW, that defines a real sword, but whether it is a real sword for really using as a sword. I've seen some real crap out of China, but then I've seen quite a lot of good metalwork, too, and I've seen crap from almost everywhere (Germany, believe it or not). Of course, what is a real cultural object is a quite seperable matter. Viewed from the perspective of the sword as a living art form, the problems of removing styles from their native cultures and of mass production are huge, but we're fighting the whole drive of the overculture to internationalize, to economize, and to standardize everything. It's a steep wall to climb there; I climb it in my own way; I salute you for standing at the bottom of it and trying to figure out where you're gonna grab on.

[Rick]

I used to be very interested in building ship models. While these guys are enormously beautiful, and have a wide appeal, nevertheless - ship modeling died on my own eyes.

First of all it was replaced by mostly machine made models, that looked 50% worse, but costed just 5% or the real thing. Than the whole industry went to China, with an exception of a few guys who make 10,000$+ models for museums and a few very rich buyers.

Why Stradevarius is still the best out there ? Same story - semi-mass production, multiplayed by the high costs of manual labor, multiplayed by non-growing demand.

We must remember that in the past centuries a lot of artisans had a choise in between of being a starving peasant, spending all his life in the field, or to be a less starving (but still very poor) artisan. And many were ready to sacrifice many years of apprenticeship in order to get there.

This epoch is gone. Manual labor will never get to its past heights - third world's labor force is mostly unskilled and the first world's labor force is too expensive.

Hello Rivkin ,
Authentic plank on frame ship modeling is very much alive and well in the U.S.
A friend of mine supports his family quite well by building custom models . Some are in museums , some in corporate hq.'s and in the hands of very wealthy individuals .
Not a dying art here .

[Rick]

Gentlemen,

I feel so happy to be in this Forum. :)
You all are wonderful people each one very unique.

I threw in this theme and have been following it as close as possible. Not intervening is not lack of interest but viewing and thinking.

I would think that on such topics there are the first issues that are what we call in Portuguese as breaking the stone, which is brainstorming.

Then I guess we should go into analysing the issues, which is actually putting forth different scenarios with different measures as much as possible native to the context.

Later it would be time to sumarize everything by discussing how to come up with ideas for measures or just simply conclude there are no measures to be taken...

Shall we proceed? :)
Thank you all.

Hi Antonio , I think in the case of the S.Philippines we can have no real resurgence until some sort of a solution has been reached in the Christian/Muslim question . I truly fear for the future of my beloved Moro weapons . :(

[Mark]

I was searching posts on the old forum and re-discovered Dan's post about his visit to Lung Som in Aranyik. Among other things, Dan writes:

Lung Som is 57 now and a 4th generation sword maker. He pretty much owns the entire village there in Aranyik but he still gets his hands dirty on a regular basis. As a young man he was given a royal commission and when he presented the sword to the king, the king gave him a mandate to keep traditional sword making alive in Thailand. He has made several swords for the royal family and has the pictures to prove it throughout his shop.

So at least Lung Som's shop is working to preserve the Thai swordmaking traditions, under royal patronage. Perhaps this sort of trend will spread, even in non-monarchial countries.

The full thread is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002324.html

[Rivkin]

I'm sorry for being a little bit overly pessimistic about ship modeling - I'm sure it's alive, just like sword making in America is also quite alive. And most likely the needed for personal interaction with a master/good marketing will prevent complete outsourcing of this and sword making industries.

However the market share did move and does move drastically from individually hand made items to the semi-mass produced ones, leaving very few in the business.

Concerning the anti-sword attitudes - I believe the sheer number of "samurai swords" sold every year is enough to recreate Sekigahara. Under every tree you can find a sensei teaching secrets of ninjutsu.

Does it transform into buying traditionally made swords ? Hell no.
At best it goes to Paul Chen and his cuties.

The reasons in my opinion are as follows:
a. There is no need for expensive real thing when something mass produced cuts (not exactly as well as the real thing).
b. With a mass produced thing you get a sword stand, cool dragon on your tsuka, and the certificate that tells you that this is a Masamune's sword.
c. Modern traditionally made swords are very often worse in quality than similarly priced antique swords.

In short, we are all going Kubachi's road - bad blades in all silver scabbards.

[Rick]

Oh I agree Rivkin , the average consumer cannot afford the masterpieces so they settle for something that looks good at an affordable price .
I think though that this is nothing new in the art and craft world .

It has always been the wealthy patron that has kept the best of anything alive be it food , art , yachts or automobiles .

I'm not sure if I am drifting away from Antonio's original question here ,(probably am :o )

[Antonio Cejunior]

This is similar to Ariel's concern about the Chinese making reproduction swords from other cultures, yes? To me, in a way, it's no big deal, because I am interested in swords; and it is not oldness or some impossible ideal of cultural purity, BTW, that defines a real sword, but whether it is a real sword for really using as a sword. I've seen some real crap out of China, but then I've seen quite a lot of good metalwork, too, and I've seen crap from almost everywhere (Germany, believe it or not). Of course, what is a real cultural object is a quite seperable matter. Viewed from the perspective of the sword as a living art form, the problems of removing styles from their native cultures and of mass production are huge, but we're fighting the whole drive of the overculture to internationalize, to economize, and to standardize everything. It's a steep wall to climb there; I climb it in my own way; I salute you for standing at the bottom of it and trying to figure out where you're gonna grab on.

Hi Tom,
Actually I am convinced that the region of Long Quan was the craddle to Chinese steel swords.
It would be of great interest to study Chinese swords, not in books but in physical terms, for the jia-gang (sandwiched steel) and other forms existed in China.
Why it has not been kept so alive is something I am still to understand in depth.
However I may found a natural-cultural reason. The Chinese were not expansionists by nature.Their concept of Zhong Guo (The Middle Kingdom) was much more important. Only the Yuan Dynasty and Qin (Ching) Dynasty were respectively Mongol and Manchu, perhaps a reason that the self enclosure did not rely on any paramount legend about the sword.
Overculture, on another aspect of your post, seems to be unstoppable. Uniformization is the word of the day which carries benefits, if we see it as a way (not being carried out) to redistribute wealth to the less developped countries (which is more utopic then doable in a willing way).
But it does have these lost things. The issue in the end is that the overculture is so full of its political righteousness that it is like a tsunami...
:(

[Battara]

But Rick, I think you have a point (besides the one on your head :D). It has been wealthy patrons who commissioned works of weapory art, most being court nobility. In today's world, outside of government, it will be the same like it is with custom knife making here in the US (as had been previously mentioned).

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hi Antonio , I think in the case of the S.Philippines we can have no real resurgence until some sort of a solution has been reached in the Christian/Muslim question . I truly fear for the future of my beloved Moro weapons . :(

Hi Rick,

I fully understand. I myself love those moro keris.
Let us hope positions do not get more intransigent.
Peace should be the most easy thing in the world to achieve.

[Rick]

I think the Chinese government has many bigger and more important fish to fry at this point in their existence .

I also remember that this culture once had great fleets of treasure ships and then abruptly ended the venture .
Didn't they also invent the clock and then abandon its use at one point in history ?

I would not be surprised that when they get their ducks more in a row that they will turn more and more to encouraging traditional artisans .

[Antonio Cejunior]

I was searching posts on the old forum and re-discovered Dan's post about his visit to Lung Som in Aranyik. Among other things, Dan writes:



So at least Lung Som's shop is working to preserve the Thai swordmaking traditions, under royal patronage. Perhaps this sort of trend will spread, even in non-monarchial countries.

The full thread is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002324.html

Thanks for the link Mark :)
If you didn't revive it, I wouldn't ever be able to view it.

Lung Som may have the commercial side to support his other artistic lines.
But the fact was that my own reaction when I was there was that I found the bowies to be too expensive and ended up feeling a bit awkward for not seeing only dhas. I could understand the commercial part, but I don't know, I wasn't convinced. But maybe I'm too picky. :)

In was wondering how are those swords that Dan ordered. Not long ago, Dan still mentioned he had not received anything.

This is the part that can scare away customers, for Asia is known to usually be very fast at doing things.

Cheers :)

[VANDOO]

DURING THE PERIOD OF COMMUNIST TAKEOVER AFTER THE NATIONALISTS WERE DEFEATED IN CHINA, ALL THINGS TRADITIONAL WERE FROWNED UPON BY THE RED GAURD. MANY EXAMPLES WERE MADE OF PEOPLE AND MANY THINGS DESTROYED IN ORDER TO ENFORCE THE NEW ORDER OF THE LITTLE RED BOOK. TODAY CHINA IS INTERESTED IN BUILDING WEALTH AND GAINING POWER, MILITARY AND OTHERWISE TO AQUIRE MORE TERRITORY. THEY ARE OUT TO BE THE NUMBER ONE POWER IN THE WORLD AND HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE AND DETERMINATION TO DO SO. BUYING UP RAW MATERIALS AND USING THEIR LARGE AND INEXPENSIVE WORKING CLASS TO PRODUCE CRAFTS AND EVERYTHING ELSE AND UNDERSELLING EVERYONE ELSE IS HELPING TO BUILD THIS WEALTH/ POWERBASE. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING AS LONG AS THEIR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT TRY TO USE FORCE TO TAKE WHAT THEY WANT AND IMPROVES THE LIVES OF THEIR PEOPLE. HOPEFULLY SOME OF THE WEALTH COULD BE USED TO KEEP TRADITIONAL CRAFTS GOING UP TO THEIR PAST AND CURRENT QUALITY.

ONE SURE WAY TO PRESERVE THE TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES AND KNOWLEGE WOULD BE TO FIND THE MASTERS AND FILM ALL THEIR TECKNIQUES AND SECRETS. A FILM AND A BOOK OF THEIR INSTRUCTIONS AND TECKNIQUE STEP BY STEP WOULD AT LEAST GIVE A FUTURE CRAFTSMAN INFORMATION TO START WITH. THIS WOULD BE IMPOSIBLE IN MANY INSTANCES AS THE MASTERS WOULD NOT BE WILLING TO SHARE ALL THEIR SECRETS. LEARNING FROM THE MASTER DIRECTLY AS AN APPRENTENCE IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN FROM BOOKS OR FILMS AS HE IS THERE TO CORRECT YOUR MISTAKES AND GIVE YOU ADVICE. SOMETIMES THE OLD WAYS ARE BEST

[Antonio Cejunior]

Dear All,

I hope I am not committing a sin here, but based on this post I have started a thread about Bladesmiths: what future today and tomorrow (http://s2.phpbbforfree.com/forums/bladesign-post-73.html?sid=c773aca8ddaf93f111d429457bf745c7#73)
I thought that many of you gentlemen could provide a further input.

Dear Moderators, I'm in no way trying to fish anyone from this wonderful forum, but really hoping to see more inputs. However if you feel I am breaking any rule, please kindly delete this post.

Thank you :)

[Rick]

Not a problem Antonio ; many of the fish here swim in both waters . ;)

[Antonio Cejunior]

Not a problem Antonio ; many of the fish here swim in both waters . ;)
Thanks Rick,

It is a new pond :)

[Battara]

Will take a look at the other pond....some of us fish just flop around. :o

[Antonio Cejunior]

Will take a look at the other pond....some of us fish just flop around. :o

:p :D

Most welcome.
I just didn't want anone to think I'm fishin'

[Emanuel]

Greetings to all,
I am but a newcomer to ethnographic arms collecting and my knowledge and collection are quite limited - as are my resources. I hope my adding my own thoughts to the questions of Mr. Conceicao won't be taken as intrusive and wrongfully placed.

Why precisely do we collect/design/forge swords? Why is this craft so appealing and so powerfull? Why must it be preserved?
First of all I think that edged weapons must be differentiated between art pieces and tools. While the first may indeed be fully functional as a weapon, it is not conceived as such. Both are representative of culture, yet lately I think culture has been directly associated with art. The weapon as tool, on the other hand is unfortunately doomed to oblivion without a purpose. A tool is discarded when no longer usefull; the same applies to weapons. This is what sadens me.

Patronage of swordsmiths was always for a specific purpose. To keep a master forger capable of creating the best weapons was an obvious advantage. To keep one for his reputation and for the creation of art pieces was a trend that developed later. To sponsor one for the utter beauty of his craft was another.
These are different needs. The first is for protection and attack. It is a tool for killing, ideally only suited for the military. The old nobility originally became noble in payment for valourous martial service. One was knighted for one's bravery, military prowess, etc... Swords were commissioned for brutal use and in commemoration of military feats and achievements. Swords were revered and held for generations to remember those feats, to show one's worth and lineage, and ultimately to accumulate prestige. The sword was defined by its use and its owner, it absorbed the user's life as well as that of the victim. The sword was held for its perceived power, as well as for its quality. A blade's life is the only thing, besides its quality, that differentiates it from all others. Is it too presumptuous of me to say that what a weapon collector still seeks when acquiring an antique weapon it to somehow benefit from its power? The respect and awe with the culture that produced the weapon is another thing, the marvel that a society could produce such items. From the scant knowledge I've accumulated, I think this feeling was best experienced - and still might be - by the Japanese. What pieces of literature I have glimpsed, presented a union of poetry, music, and armed aggression. Only in Asia it seems, is the power of the sword so wonderfully expressed. The life of a blade, summed up by a Haiku.

The second need was for show. Sword as status symbol, as an expected representation of one's station in life. As art pieces swords have a far different power. They are testaments to man's craft, yes, but they are not for killing. I can appreciate their worth and what they represent, as I can marvel at a painting. I have stood for hours, transfixed by the flawlessness of a sculpture whose skin pulsed with life and whose eyes bore into my soul, as I have shuddered at the beauty of some gem-and-gold-encrusted blades and tsubas with microscopic details. But ultimately they nad no function save the aesthetic.

Who commissions great paintings or sculptures these days? Who erects a palace? Who commissions a sword. The wealthy, the money aristocracy who can afford it. The commissioned sword however is still not for use. It is to be hanged in a lavish environment as an expression of its owner's taste and ideals. Who commissions a sword for killing? Damascene blades are coveted mostly for their beauty, not for their performance. As a tool, the sword is obsolete. In the 21th century, the craft that produces such a tool is also obsolete. The remaining craftsmen focus on the creation of art.

Thus, the preservation of craftsmanship is quite complicated. Here I feel the distinction between crafts must be made. A group or government may support crafts in the guise of art and culture. But I strongly believe that the craft of the weapon-tool as a separate entity will not be supported for long. I'm sorry I cannot provide solid academic references to my statements, all I can stand on is what I've seen happening in the world. The weapon-smiths of Europe have dissappeared, Toledo is in the tourist trade and Solingen in the custom art pieces. China replicates everything in a good-enough-for-your-eyes manner. Even in Indonesia/Malaysia/Java, the keris seems to have lost some of its mystique, fabricated far from its traditional place of origin, in any manner suitable to the owner. This is indeed a sort of preservation. North-America, as stated earlier in the post, keeps bladesmithing alive and strong, but the new work is still different. It is impressive to whitness the rediscovery of pattern-welding, damscus, and other techniques thought lost, and the work done is quite beautiful. My point however is that these modern pieces will not become the antiques of the future. A silver inlaid blade of exceptional quality and finishing done today for a banker will never - in my opinion - attain the power of a 200 year old pala, takouba, or katana that has preserved the life and caused the death of a hundred souls.

Would it be possible to return the sword to its traditional use, to arm modern armed forces with swords as side-arms, it would give a valuable lesson in conducting warfare, one apparently forgotten by modern powers relying on artillery and aerial bombardments.

I've rambled on quite enough. I apologize once again if I've gone too far from the intended topic and if my comments are redundant.

Manolo