Pirate swords and weapons

[Jim McDougall]

Recently the discovery of Captain Kidd's ship, the "Quedah Merchant" near what is now the Dominican Republic, has revisited my interest in the weapons used by 'pirates'. Naturally, all the standard cliche' images come to mind, from "Treasure Island "to the "Pirates of the Caribbean" immersed pop culture.
Trying to research the weapons actually used by varied groups that fall into this genre over different time periods, and quite literally over the 'seven Seas', reveals pathetic amatuer treatises on the weapons used, especially the swords.

I think the diffusion of various forms of ethnographic weapons was in many cases greatly enhanced by not only trade routes, but by these maritime franchises of either criminals or often 'licensed predators' carrying letters of marque, constantly moving between continents and oceans.

I began the thread on early makers marks in hopes of investigating, discussing and comprehensively grouping these inscriptions, stamps and marks that typically occur on European blades and those intended for trade. This of course addresses diffusion of weapons via commercial means into ethnographic regions, however the admittedly more restricted scope of such movement via this interesting maritime phenomenon may produce some colorful and fascinating results.

For example, pirates were of course not just the now cliche' Treasure Island characters of the American east coast and the Caribbean, and plundering the merchant ships of India, France, Spain and other powers...but the corsairs of the Meditteranean, Barbary Pirates, the pirates of the South China Sea, those of the Philippine and Indonesian archipelagos.
Even India had thier own nautical renegades, such as those from the west coast in the Maratha pirates, who preyed on East India Company ships among others.

With this geographic and cultural diversity, I am hoping that all members of the forum, in all factions of interest, might find interest in this topic, as weapons from all these cultures are in fact the true weapons used on so called 'pirate' vessels.

It would not be surprising to find that among the composite armories on these ships, would be the acquired weapons from the prey they had taken. In the Indian Ocean, naturally along with the English hangers (not necessarily 'cutlasses') that were on the English/American pirate ships, could also have included tulwars, firangi, shamshirs (the literary 'scimitar' which is a writers term not an actual weapon) and others.

I would like to discuss not only the more commonly associated cutlasses, hangers, rapiers, broadswords etc. but perhaps discover references seen in narratives of Philippines, China, India, Madagascar, Africa and others of piracy and perhaps references to the weapons.

I think one of most comprehensive and accurate studies on the truly wide range of piracy and the weapons used was in a brilliant exhibition that was in Haifa, and the catalog produced was magnificent. I hope Oriental Arms might read this and help me recall the title and year as it is not at hand at this time.

Best regards,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Jim,
what an excellent idea, I'll try and do some 'digging' (NO treasure map) and see what I can find. ;) I do know that it was common to shorten the blades of captured swords to improve their 'functionality' on board ship.

Kind Regards David

[spiral]

Fascinating Subject Jim! I to presume they would use any captured piece that took thier fancy or was fittest for the job.

The exhibition was called ... " Pirates - The Skull and Crossbones."

The published works of the exhibition at The National Maritime museum, Haifa, Israel, were published in 2002.

But sadley I havent any seen of the catalouges.

Spiral

[RhysMichael]

Jim
A while back I told you about a sword at a resturant in Charleston called "Queen Anne's Revenge" (for obvious reasons). As I am sure you know Charleston's pirate history is extensive. The owner there has been collecting pirate artifacts for a good while (I am told decades) and has many of them on display in the resturant. The one I wrote of on here had a Nimcha ( Saif ) hilt and a blade from what looked to be a takouba. There are more than a dozen other swords on display there some are indeed hangers. I do not have photos from there but there are video tours from a news clip on the resturant here under the tours section that give a brief view of some of them.

http://www.qarevenge.com/

The priates soul museum in key west may be a good contact as well. They have a large collection but not many online photos of it
http://www.piratesoul.com/contact.aspx

While not all pirate the National Maritime Museum online collection is here and contains over 300 edged weapons, thats 300 online I think and more than 600 in its total collection (BTW they have a link on their page to this site )
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/index.cfm/category/weapons

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for the great responses guys!!! I really do think we can have some fun and exciting adventure with this topic!
You're right David, they did shorten down the blades on a lot of these weapons...wasn't a lot of room to wave around a three or four foot sword on those tiny decks! :)
Spiral, thanks for the name of that exhibition. I wish I had the copy of the catalog handy right now....it was an incredible reference, and most impressive accuracy. Maybe Artzi will read this and might have suggestions about copies.

Rhys Michael, I am determined to get to Charleston one of these days and think that will be on the GPS soon. Excellent links BTW ! Thank you! During the earlier dives on the "Queen Annes Revenge" I had a number of great conversations with Wayne Lusardi and we often joked about the finds because I always grumbled about the cannons...where are the swords I said!! Dont think they ever found any. There were some distinct finds on the "Henrietta Marie" I believe with a shellguard English hanger, and on the "Whydah" I think there were some.
The book "Swords for Sea Service" (2 vol) by May & Annis has great illustrations of many of these swords from the National Maritime Museum.

Its been a while since that saif with the takouba blade! but what a great example of the great diversity of weapons used in the mkany forms of piracy.

One book that comes to mind here that has great references on this topic is "Boarders Away" by Gilkerson.

One weapon that seems to come up in illustrations of pirate weapons, but is seldom focused on, is the Scottish basket hilt. It has been established that Blackbeard was actually dispatched by a blow by one of these, but it seems that a Highlander who had joined with British expedition chasing him was simply aboard at the time, not necessarily regularly at sea. Any thoughts on whether the basket hilt was actually employed at sea?


One thing that has really inspired me to address this subject on pirate swords is these pirate websites that inevitably show the brass basketguard 'cutlass' which is actually a M1860 U.S. naval cutlass of Civil War period. I think Wyeth perpetrated this is some of his otherwise magnificent illustrations.

While obviously European and British hangers of the mid 17th century prevail as those used on pirate vessels, thier adventures into the waters of the Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean surely provided them with many forms of exotic weapons. Elgood shows karabela hilt nimcha with widened blade tip that may well have been used at sea by pirates from Muscat and others.

So many possibilities!!

All very best regards,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

Great thread Jim, I love them there pirates....hence my handle, Freebooter.

As with the trademark thread, just not a lot of time this time of year but I will leave you all with these images of an Executioners axe from the Danish West indies.

I bid with fury on this many years ago but just didn't have the coin to win at the time.

The images of the gallows and the wheel on this axe are very sinister, the gallows I am sure we all know about, but for those who have not seen the spoked wheel before, don't confuse it with a makers mark.

This wheel was a horrible things. For further reading follow this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel

This particular group of images is what pirates were on the receiving end of if they were ever caught.

[katana]

Hi Jim,
due to the close proximity of combatants on the decks of a ship, it is my understanding that basket hilted swords (European pirates and Privateers) were favoured, not only for the protection of the hand ( a crew with badly injured hands would have great difficulty in 'sailing ship') but also to strike your opponent,to stun ....before the coupe de gras. It seems that the cutlass blade was favoured for its weight (which was comparable to longer blades.) A basic functional 'chopper' suited to its use.
Apparantly the Barbary pirates favoured the Nimcha, however I cannot find any pictures or any reference to the dimensions of the blades. :(

A link to other pirates or those considered pirates....

http://www.national-army-museum.ac.uk/exhibitions/soldiersSeahawks/page2.shtml

Was hoping that the flags used by pirates might provide clues....nothing conclusive (a number of weapons shown) so far but this gives a little more 'background'

http://pvcbanners.co.uk/world-flags/allflags/pirates.html

Regards David

Jim, interestingly the first flag has latin (?) similar to early makers marks ;)

.

[Norman McCormick]

Hello,
Here's a blade I picked up a while ago and although probably dating from the latter half of the 18th Century, well after the pirate "golden age", I think it illustrates quite well the type of weapon most associated with buccaneers and pirates. The blade is 26 inches long pretty sharp and is most likely from a Government issue cutlass/hangar type weapon, the GR mark. If the makers mark on the tang rings a bell with anybody please let me know. Any more info or corrections, again, please let me know.
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Freebooter, I figured that was behind your well chosen handle!!! I think we all have a certain curious affinity for these rascals! at least in the romanticized sense.
Your post with that fearsome looking axe surely adds some perspective to the darker side of the actual piracy phenomenon, and the markings are most intriguing as we have noted the appearance of similar marks on early executioners swords. Thanks very much for posting this, something not often seen in these discussions!

David, well said on the favor for well guarded hands on the close quarters melees on deck, and all manner of basketed, shell guarded edged weapons were chosen. There was little 'fencing' or 'styled' sword combat, typically more of a street fighting anything goes scrap, though many 'pirates' had been seamen in various navies.
As you note, the flags, while intriguing, offer only stylized hints of the weapons actually used and were used for emphasis symbolically. The letters do seem to represent first letters of some saying or phrase, probably well known to the men who used it, but unknown to us at this point. It does indeed fall in line with this practice on sword blade markings. Sets the mind to wondering what in the world it might have meant. It seems interesting that very similar defiance and rebelliousness is seen today in tattoos, biker symbolics etc. These guys were basically seagoing versions of todays rebellious subcultures.

The nimchas were of course used in degree by the Barbary pirates, which were actually confederations of groups along the littoral in North Africa from Morocco to Algiers and Tunis. These 'nimchas's (actually sa'if) were among the many forms of edged weapons probably used, and as you note, there was considerable variation in the blades but most were of full length, suggesting these might have been used more in shore assaults.


Norman,
Thank you for joining us here, and I've very much enjoyed the weapons you have been posting on the other threads! Great examples, as is this one, which is as you note, a heavy cutlass type blade from the 1790's to early 19th century. This would probably have been mounted with the regulation naval disc hilt (see "Boarders Away" by William Gilkerson for exact references but if I recall there is one nearly identical shown). I am not with most of my references presently so please bear with me, this is a fantastic book though! The GR and crown ordnance stamp was not used until the end of the 18th century, and was typically on these cutlass blades, particularly with government contractors. If memory serves, one of the contractors of this period was I think William Dawes, but would need to reconfirm. The reference would be in "Swords for Sea Service" May & Annis, again, not handy :(

Although as you note, the "Golden Age" had largely subsided by 1725, the scourge of the seas continued, and of course still does. These naval cutlasses certainly found use aboard various renegade vessels in those later times, but would be difficult to substantiate specific cases.

Thank you very much guys!!!
All very best regards,
Jim

[Matt Splatt]

Hello all, this is such a great subject I felt I had to throw in this little tidbit. I've had this for years and it used to have an old tag that read "Seized from Igbo pirate Niger delta, 1897". I'm very aware that this may just be a bit of fiction designed to sell a crusty old gun but I also think it might be representative of the modification of available arms to meet the requirements of pirating. The lock plate, stock and trigger look to be from a Brown Bess. The hammer is definatly not, it is rather crudely forged and bears the remnants of silver Koftgari. Perhaps it is Arab. The trigger guard and lanyard loop are rather roughly filed from aluminum. A short handy gun with a lanyard would be ideal for clambering from ship to ship with out your pistol going into the drink.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Matt,
Thank you for adding this, another excellent contribution! Who wouldnt find such an intriguing label exciting! and it most probably is quite accurate. As previously noted, piracy was by no means confined to the colorfully imaged activities of those in the Caribbean and exotic isles, nor in the so called "Golden Age of Piracy" from c.1650 to c.1725. Piracy has existed perpetually with the movements of commerce and trade from long before that time, and still does. Certainly the profoundly trade occupied Niger delta had its share of such activity, and though 1897 sounds tremendously modern, early warfare still prevailed , and what might have been considered relatively ancient weapons would be put to good use in native hands.
I think your assessment is most likely quite accurate, though I'm not extremely familiar with guns, and without markings hard to say. It does look like the piece has been dramatically altered as you have described.
Nice addition to our topic Matt! thank you!
All the best,
Jim

[spiral]

. The trigger guard and lanyard loop are rather roughly filed from aluminum. .

Personly I think that implys later modification than 1897. Aluminium was about the price of 24c gold at that time I understand. So if used would be with rather more finesse I think?


Spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

Personly I think that implys later modification than 1897. Aluminium was about the price of 24c gold at that time I understand. So if used would be with rather more finesse I think?


Spiral

Interesting price comparison Spiral, I never knew.

As these rovers of the sea took what they did, not buy it, I would consider such a piece of aluminium to be period correct. It is well documented that pirates did destroy many fine pieces to equally share the weight of the booty , even coins where cut to pieces, with larger shares going to captains and others. This rough filed piece could well have been one of these pieces.

Gav

[Matt Splatt]

Spiral, you are a bit off I'm afraid. In the mid 1800's aluminum was more expensive than gold but by 1880 it was about the price of silver. In 1886 the Hall-Heroult electrolysis method made it cheaply and in industrial quantities. By the mid 1890's it was so cheap it was used as a building material. It was a quite heavily used in the tropics because of its corrosion resistance. A prime example of this is the aluminum dome on the Chief Secretaries Building in Sydney Australia completed in 1895. So I don't think the aluminum is a problem with the date.

[spiral]

Spiral, you are a bit off I'm afraid. In the mid 1800's aluminum was more expensive than gold but by 1880 it was about the price of silver. In 1886 the Hall-Heroult electrolysis method made it cheaply and in industrial quantities. By the mid 1890's it was so cheap it was used as a building material. It was a quite heavily used in the tropics because of its corrosion resistance. A prime example of this is the aluminum dome on the Chief Secretaries Building in Sydney Australia completed in 1895. So I don't think the aluminum is a problem with the date.


Thankyou Matt! Yes I was clearly mistaken on that dating. Apologies. Ill look at my sources again but it was probably just my memmory at fault!

Spiral

[Berkley]

Among the relics recovered (http://www.qaronline.org/artifacts/arms.htm) from Blackbeard's flagship Queen Anne's Revenge are a brass blunderbuss barrel, a sideplate from a pistol, and a whetstone. Regrettably no edged weapons have been found. The sea is not kind to iron and steel :( .

[Freddy]

I'm not really into guns, but sometimes one finds something interesting so I buy it :shrug: (just can't help it).
I liked the pistol Matt displayed and I want to add this one to the arsenal of pirates.

It's a blunderbuss I bought some time ago. According to the former owner, it came from North Africa, although anywhere along the Westcoast of Africa could also be correct.

It's about 48 cm long and has a bore of 4,5 cm !

This type of weapon was used aboard ships to repel boarders and mutineers.

It's crudely made and resembles a bit Matt's pistol.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/e-bayannonces1335.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/e-bay102040.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/e-bay102041.jpg

[fernando]

Hi Freddy
Is the action working ?
Is 48 cms. the total length ?
Fernando

[Freddy]

Yes, the total length is 48 cm. Quite a compact piece.

It's possible to pull the hammer back and from time to time it reacts when you pull the trigger. Unfortunately, some barbarian :eek: put a nail in the hole where the percussion cap had to be placed to ignite the powder.

But still, it looks nice on my wall.

[fernando]

It seems as piracy chronicles are traditionaly fancifull, and rather dificult to discern which were the actual devices tose guys used in action. According to Exquemelin's way of portraying his favorites, those operating in the Antilles, the main weapon was indeed a short piece, practical for boarding melee.
On the other hand Teach ( Black beard ) can be seen portraied in "speciality books" with various pistols ( three according to chronists ) and a full sized sword ... and two burning priming cords pending from his hat :eek:
William Kidd is a figure that still sustains lots of mystic as, just the other day, certain researchers went back to the files to try and determine that Kidd's condemnation was a judicial error :eek: .
All this and much more comes in an interesting book about Piracy and Corso from all times, published in 1997 ( ISBN 972-759-044-6 ).
A pitty that the weapons used are the least contemplated part.

[fernando]

But still, it looks nice on my wall.

You already answered my next question :D
I wouldn't mind fixing that problem of the nail stuck in the fire hole :cool: .

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, thank you for the great posts of these illustrations! These are great for point of reference as we look at how artists and illustrators perceived the weapons carried by the pirates, and we wonder how accurate or fanciful these renderings are.
I think poor Captain Kidd really got a bad rap!
All the best,
Jim

[kronckew]

as mentioned by jim in post no. 1 there is more than just the caribbean,
the indonesian/malayan/phillipines were (and still are) famous for their
piratical endeavours.

the sea dyaks (iban) were amoungst those feared eastern pirates, and their parangs were ideal for close encounters of the maritime kind, they were especially fond of making sure their clients stayed with them for a long time, but tended to make them a bit more portable by just taking the heads back as guests. limited the conversation a bit.

my sea dyak parang of Langgai Tinggang type (looks late 20c)
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Dyak004.jpg
19" blade, 1/4" at grip, distal tapered to point, 2 brass 'dot' blade inserts near tip and 1 in the krowit. crudely carved wood grip & scabbard with fancy rattanwork...

i suspect my klewang with the fur covered (90% of fur is gone) leather scabbard & brass guard & grip (leather wound) was also of piratical origin.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/klewang2.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/klewang1.jpg
19.5" blade, 3/8" at grip (1/4" at 1" from grip) distal taper to 1/8" at tip, concaved blade spine to halfway, then spine is grooved either side to the tip, single fuller runs the full length. blade tip appears to have been shortened.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for posting these Kronckew! The sea Dyaks were definitely one of the groups from those regions I was referring to. The parang (I believe often termed also 'mandau') is not surprisingly included in some references I have seen showing groupings of a variety of 'pirate' weapons. I am not sure of the range of the Sea Dyaks beyond thier home regions, but I would not be surprised if some of them joined other pirate crews on individual basis. These parangs might have been adopted by crewmen of ships that visited these regions as well, which seems a plausible speculation.

The 'klewang' you show is also very interesting, especially the wrapped grip and mount components which appear of Japanese katana style. It seems that in discussions some time ago concerning Japanese influences on the weapons in SE Asia, it was noted that many groups of river pirates in the rivers deep inland in SE Asia were comprised of many Japanese. I vaguely recall even a katana type sword captioned as from India, though I had serious reservations on complete acceptance of that attribution.
The hilt on this example with the upward and downward quillons on the guard of course also reflects Chinese sidearms including those attributed to Chinese river pirates. Those groups were still extremely active well into the 20th century and a great movie that included that topic was "The Sand Pebbles" with Steve McQueen. I do not recall specifically details such as weapons from the movie, but thought the subject worthy of note.

All best regards,
Jim

[kronckew]

hi jim, interesting thoughts on the one that was billed as a 'klewang' by it's previous owner who mentioned it might have been confiscated from pirates. could be chinese with the point reground. here we go using terms that just mean 'sword' locally. it was purported to have come from malaysia. ;)

i also have this bornean (?) parang on the way from birmingham*,
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/swords/Dyak2.jpg
while it looks a bit like a dyak parang ilang, it's apparently not a mandau (double knife). the blade supposedly is from around 1900, but the dress has been restored. will have better idea when it arrives (would have been easier to drive the hour up there, but it's coming via Royal Mail :( ).

* the UK one, the Alabama one woulda been a two hour trip from home in morgan county. ;)

[fernando]

Also pistols like this one are said to have been were used by pirates ... those with more wealth.
This is a Queen Anne pistol, assumedly from the the XVIII century.

[Gavin Nugent]

A long time coming with these pics as with a lot of threads I do wish to add my bit too. Below are a series of engravings from a time life book that should give a good indications of the weapons carried by them there pirates arrg!!

Also a great read for anyone interest in these pirate stories and discoveries from the bottom of the sea would be any books by Barry Clifford, the research and insight into the life and times of these misplaced men is amazing.

I beleive if you right click and attempt to save the image it will reveal the name of the pictured Pirate for those who are interested.

There is also an image of weapons of the day and it is said all these weapons are carried at once for most excursions as they had to be a walking arsenal but both long arms were most likely not carried at the same time. As seen in one engraving 6 more more pistols were carried by some.

Gav

[Robert]

Well I can't say that this was ever on a ship but I do think loaded with nails or shot it would have been quite helpful if you had to clear the decks. :eek: :D It was originally a flint lock that was later converted to musket cap.

Total length is 30 inches
Barrel is 16-1/2 inches
Bore about 3/4 inch


Robert

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gav,
Thank you for posting those illustrations out of "The Pirates". That Time-Life book has some of the greatest photos and illustrations, and really brought things to life when reading about these scoundrels :)
Its great to have those pictures here to bring that dimension to the discussion while we examine the many different types of weapons actually used by them. While those illustrated are pretty much the standard forms estimated in use, we have seen that in reality there was an amazingly wide spectrum of forms from equally widely ranged cultural spheres.

Good suggestion on Barry Clifford, especially on the discovery of the "Whydah". It seems that among the artifacts discovered, I believe there was the remains of one of the pistols with ribbon still festooned to it. Interesting to think of these pre-revolver days :) with one gun having six shots instead of having to wear six pistols!

Thanks for the musket Robert, quite literally a hand held cannon! No doubt, as you have noted, it would clear a deck pretty quick!

All best regards,
Jim

[BBJW]

Carrying 6 or more single shot pistols was quite a load, but Jesse James and others in Quantrill's Raiders were known to carry more than 20 revolvers on and about them and their horses on raids. That was a lot of firepower in the 1860's! On shipboard one of the best guns was the swivel gun ususally mounted on both sides of the bridge. I'm building one now and when it is finished I'll post it. It has a 1.75 inch bore and I have test fired it with shot. Absolutely devastating out to 25 yards.

Shiver me timbers
bbjw

[Rick]

As a personal aside, seeing as how I've rubbed elbows with many of the principals involved in the Whidah Galley project in our local watering holes . ;)

Before we get too far with Mr. Clifford might I recommend a read:

Walking The Plank by Stephen Kiesling ( ISBN 0-9638461-5-9 ) for another perspective on this controversial Gentleman and his discoveries . :rolleyes:

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for the heads up Rick. Don't know much about him except the "Whydah" . Much like many intense and professional fields, that of archaeology, and in this case nautical archaeology, there are tremendous politics and personalities issues it seems.
I had the opportunity for some one on one discussions with some of those involved with a number of shipwreck discoveries, and the extreme intensity became quite apparant.
I'll have to look into that book your recommend :)

All best regards,
Jim

[Rick]

It's a good read Jim, I'll lend you my copy if you'd like . :)
PM me .

[fernando]

Carrying 6 or more single shot pistols was quite a load, but Jesse James and others in Quantrill's Raiders were known to carry more than 20 revolvers on and about them and their horses on raids. That was a lot of firepower in the 1860's!
Shiver me timbers
bbjw

Untill after firearms were instantly reloadable, action folks indeed used to carry lots of them.
It is said that, for example, during American civil war, colts were thrown away after discharging their six rounds, to get free a hand to handle the next one.
After the battle, troopers used to go around the action field, to gain them back, sometimes ending up gainning somebody else's piece.That's why there are plenty "captured" colts being offered out there.
Fernando

[fernando]

A typical modified specimen, an often resource procedure, that would qualify for a rank and file pirate.
The lock is a patilha ( miquelete ) one, potentialy Spanish, end XVIII century, later converted to percussion. The stock of Cataluña fashion, maybe not the original one, but certainly old stuff. The barrel is British proofed, Brown Bess type of an early version, i wonder if from the trade circuit, or eventualy captured or left back in battle.
Both barrel and stock were shortened, the barrel flared, to convert this piece for close action, as used also aboard ships.
... A form of Bacamarte, or Trabuco, or Blunderbuss.
Maybe it never belonged to a seaman ... but who knows ? :shrug:

[Gavin Nugent]

Nice postings guys, Fernando, you always suprise me with what comes out of the wood work.
I'll source myself a copy asap thanks Rick, if you know of any for sale from someone who will ship to Australia please let me know.

thanks.

Gav

[Rick]

Since colonial days to be charged with Barratry (1970's) came from my home town . :eek:

Pirates are everywhere . :cool:












Arrr ... ;) :D

[Gavin Nugent]

Found and ordered a copy today, thanks Rick, I'll be sure to tell of my readings in the weeks to come

[A. G. Maisey]

This morning is the first time I have read this thread, which I have found to be of some interest, however, there are a couple of things I would like to comment on.

Firstly, there is the question of exactly what a pirate is:- how do we define a "pirate"?

In the sense implied by this discussion, Oxford tells us that a pirate is one who attacks and robs ships at sea.

This raises the question of whether we can refer to the Iban as "pirates".

The Iban raided coastal and inland settlements, principally of Land Dyaks. They raided for two reasons:- heads and slaves; the heads were an integral part of their culture and tied into tribal continuity, the slaves were necessary labour to assist with rice farming--- the Iban were rice farmers, not forest dwellers.

Because the primary targets of the Iban were more often than not the Land Dyak, this put the Iban on a collision course with James Brooke.

The Iban would raid in fleets of hundreds of war canoes, Brookes had no army, and unless he could gain the backing of the British government his attempts to carve a minor kingdom for himself would fail. Suddenly the rice farmers of several different river systems became "Sea Dyaks", and "pirates". Up to this point they had been known as Skrang, Undup Dyak, Saribas, Balau---but because Brooke needed British government backing these people suddenly became "pirates", and "Sea Dyaks". The British government latched on to this terminology and the Royal Navy jumped in to give Brookes a hand at subduing these evil 19th century terrorists.

By any reasonable measure the Iban were not pirates. They were rice farmers whose culture demanded heads, and whose economic survival demanded slaves. Their targets were not ships at sea, but settlements where they could obtain these necessities.

Yes, there were pirates in maritime South East Asia. They were for the main part coastal Malays , usually fishermen, who had struck trouble in making a living from fishing. When the fish started to run again, they would leave the pirating and go back to fishing. This is, I understand, still the case today

[Tim Simmons]

I think there are still villains not fishermen today in the South China Seas, South America , the Caribbean and there abouts. I believe they use what is known as a "rib" and a machine gun. They sound like rich opportunist fishermen to me even in the past :shrug: .
http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,103960,00.html

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Alan,
What a pleasure to have you post on this thread, which I am glad you have found interesting, and the subject of the 'sea Dyaks' is one that I had in mind when I first started the topic. The objective here has been to add dimension to the now cliche' term 'pirate' and examine the broader scope of piracy worldwide as well as the equally broad scope of weaponry used.

I have seen the Dyak 'mandau' or parang ihlang, which I think is the proper term for these interesting swords, among groupings of 'pirate' weapons in some of the rather cursory books on pirates. I thought it was interesting that what seemed at first a 'coffee table' book, actually stepped outside the bounds of the 'Pirates of the Caribbean' image. That and several other notes that indicated the very widespread and still extant social phenomenon known as piracy was indeed quite much more complex than its romanticized treatment in literature.

Thank you very much for your concise and intriguing description of the Dyaks, which perfectly adds the perspective needed in expanding our understanding of piracy and its true dimension.

With all very best regards,
Jim

[A. G. Maisey]

Jim, as far as actual pirate weaponry goes, I reckon the real pirates used whatever they had to hand. I've even seen a picture of keris somewhere that was supposedly taken from a pirate.

As for expanding the concept of "pirates" and their weapons --- how about corporations, their CEO's, and the teams of accountants, lawyers and other specialists that they call upon?
These blokes make Edward Teach look like a gentleman.

[kronckew]

the definition of pirates also includes those who raid the land from the sea, the iban would fit this definition i'd say. another site with a legal definition of pirate under international law also implies the inclusion of land raids from the sea and taking slaves. Pirate definition (http://www.thepirateking.com/terminology/definition_pirate.htm)

[Rick]

Jim, as far as actual pirate weaponry goes, I reckon the real pirates used whatever they had to hand. I've even seen a picture of keris somewhere that was supposedly taken from a pirate.

As for expanding the concept of "pirates" and their weapons --- how about corporations, their CEO's, and the teams of accountants, lawyers and other specialists that they call upon?
These blokes make Edward Teach look like a gentleman.

Woody Guthrie said that best Alan ,

" Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen. "

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, as far as actual pirate weaponry goes, I reckon the real pirates used whatever they had to hand. I've even seen a picture of keris somewhere that was supposedly taken from a pirate.

As for expanding the concept of "pirates" and their weapons --- how about corporations, their CEO's, and the teams of accountants, lawyers and other specialists that they call upon?
These blokes make Edward Teach look like a gentleman.

I couldn't agree with you, Rick and Kronckew more!!! Piracy knows no bounds, and the scoundrels prey with the blessings of those who make the laws that give them carte blanche!

The pirates were in many ways big business, and the letter of marque was often accented with syndicated business ventures....much like the one that sent Captain Kidd to his fate, the victim of 'corporate deceit'. There are more ways to rob and kill than with traditional weapons, much more insidious methods that take away someones livelihood for example....but thats really discussion for another forum.

As you have said, the pirates used whatever weapons they could get thier hands on. While they supposedly had a 'code' ("..more of a guideline") :) there was no 'dress code' nor regulation weaponry to be sure!
Their manner of dress often became rather flamboyant, and as discussed on a concurrent thread, depended greatly on psychological effect to shock and frighten their victims as they overcame them. It seems this imagery may well have included the brandish of frightening and sometimes exotic weapons when they had them.
To see a motley mass of loud, bizarre and foppishly festooned ruffians armed 'to the teeth' and waving around frightening swords with formidable blades would seem pretty convincing. While we know that the short bladed hanger type swords were preferred for crowded on deck melee's, the use of more exotic weapons might have put on quite a show as the ships drew close. Obviously also included might have been all manner of battle and boarding axes, and heaven knows what other items.



Best regards,
Jim

[Rick]

Yes, Kidd was a very interesting character; backed by some prominent Manhattan citizens if I remember correctly .

Killed a man with a bucket 'tis said .

They say there's still treasure unfound on Gardiner's Island .









But it will take another Pirate to find it . ;)

[A. G. Maisey]

I really do not want to start something here that could see this thread degenerate into a debate on the meanings of words. However, I must point out that the English language is not used in exactly the same way in all those countries that use a form of this language.

I am located in Australia, and I have found that in legal applications two dictionaries are accepted as sufficient evidence to establish the generally accepted meaning of a word. These dictionaries are the Macquarie Dictionary, which is an Australian compilation, and the Oxford Dictionary.

I prefer the Oxford Dictionary because that has a greater possibility of acceptance outside Australia.

The Oxford dictionary that I use as my everyday tool is the Shorter Oxford on Historical Principles.
In this dictionary the word "pirate" is provided with a number of meanings. In the context of this discussion no meaning is given that covers the act of piracy from the sea, but only on the sea.

The Sea Dyaks did not as a general rule attack ships on the sea. They used watercraft to transport warriors along river systems and to attack settlements on land.

In Britain in 1839, or in Britain today, I believe it would be very difficult to get a conviction against the Dyaks for piracy. Yes, you could get them for something else, but not piracy. Not in Britain.

They were unjustly accused because the pirates of two hundred years ago had a similar aura to the terrorists of today. It was political expediancy.

Brookes and the British Government branded the Sea Dyaks as pirates, and the language used for this defamation was the English language.

I submit that this was an incorrect use of language which resulted in the defamation of a tribal group for political purposes.


Pirates with fountain pens?

Yep.

And computers too.

[fernando]

Hi Kronckew
That link is certainly a very good sinthesis of piracy definition.
But let me please add some points to it.
It seems as the first traces of piracy registered, are a bit earlier than the phoenitian period, and remount to the Sumerian civilization, some five thousand years ago. They are engraved in clay plaques, in cuneiform script, relating atacks by a Barbarian people, the Guti, against Sumerian navigators.
From then on piracy was practiced by plenty peoples and nations, which makes it very dificult to restrict such exercize to this or that entity, in this or that area.
The most unsuspected guys have, at least in a certain period, given a hand to it. How's about Columbus having participated in corsair actions under instructions of the Portuguese King?
This brings us to the point i would like to emphasize. Although implemented by different social behaviours, privateering ( corso ) can not be separated from piracy, as the practices inflicted are the same.
We can say it is even a worse issue, as pirates were no more than free lance bandits, whereas corsairs were "fine officers" legalized by Kings to practice piracy, say banditism.
So the s ... was the same, only the flies changed.
This brings us to the theme of the thread, which deals with weaponry used by pirates. I think this is in the wide sense, that is, privateers included. My i assume that, Jim ?
By the way and returning to topic, i have read that the Moors from North Africa, when doing piratic acts on the Portuguese coast, used crossbows. How's that ?
Fernando

[fernando]

Hi Alan
No doubt the convergent language in the forum is english, but the interpretation of things by the different members envolves rather diverse languages and cultures, which makes it a bot more complex.
Nevertheless i happen to have the 1969 edition of an Oxford Universal Dictionary first published in 1933. It says there that, a pirate is one who robs and plunders on the sea; a sea robber, etc.
In a Portuguese dictionary published in 2004, a pirate is one who atacks and robs ships; a corsair. But here i think the main preocupation of modern atributions to piracy are those that concern informatic and stuff like that.
However it is of common knowledge that piracy ( and privateering ), although implemented on the sea, often contextualy extended its action to land.
I guess that people atacking on an inland business basis, independently from their cause, would have another name :shrug:
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Beautifully said Alan! and again, thank you for bringing this most applicable perspective on the definition of the term pirate, and its convenient distortion in legal parlance. This absolutely brings perspective to our discussion not typically seen in the standard references.

Fernando, thank you for bringing in the historical perspective of piracy overall, and indeed privateers were pirates, however 'licensed' with letters of marque. The problem was, the very thin line of observation in exercising those letters of marque, using privately owned ships to prey on enemy shipping, in sort of an 'outsourced' concept. Since the pay of the seamen depended virtually on the materials and loot acquired in these ventures, often when no enemy vessels were available, mutinous conditions arose. This was essentially one of the problems encountered by Kidd, and others likewise turned to any vessel they encountered with good promise of bounty.

Rick, I think the money they discovered on Gardiners Island was probably deliberately planted as backup in just the situation that ensued. I often wonder if there was indeed more found and the proceeds deliberately undeclared and distributed among his unscrupulous 'partners'. Getting rid of Kidd certainly eliminated the key witness !

I think the 'treasure' is in the tale itself, and the adventures that guarantee speculators, tourism and the never ending search for it :)

All best regards,
Jim

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Fernando, in general terms of course we can consider that piracy has a broader meaning than the one I am prepared to give it.

However, I was not speaking in general terms, but in quite specific terms, in reference to Brookes, the British Government, and the Sea Dyaks or Iban.

Examination of the circumstances of this matter can leave no doubt that the Sea Dyaks were created by Brookes, and dubbed "pirates", even though they were not pirates in a sense that would be understood by a speaker of Standard English at the time they were so created. It was political opportunism.Just that. And it has stuck for going on 200 years.

The reason I made reference to the variation in application of various understandings to words in the English language is that this language has a very large number of variations, Kronckew used an American English dictionary as his reference, but it would be quite illogical to use a modern dictionary of American English to define the way in which an Englishman in 1839 would understand a particular word.

In any case, let's leave our Ibans, but let's leave them without the stigma of being pirates. They were not.

[VANDOO]

LETTERS OF MARKE MADE YOU A LEGAL PIRATE TO YOUR BOSS BUT JUST A PIRATE TO YOUR ENEMYS . A LIFE OF PIRACY WAS OFTEN MORE A RESULT OF CIRCUMSTANCES THAN OF WORDS. IF A CREW MUTINIED OR A CAPTIAN FAILED IN A VITAL MISSION FOR HIS KING IT COULD CAUSE THEM TO BECOME PEOPLE WITHOUT A COUNTRY SO PIRACY WOULD THEN BECOME A COURSE FOR SURVIVAL. THE DEFINITIONS OF PIRACY WERE ALL MADE UP BY LAWMAKERS AGAINST VARIOUS GROUPS FOR DIFFERENT REASONS AND LIKE WITCHCRAFT PROOF WAS OFTEN NOT NEEDED AS AN ACCUSATION WOULD LEAD TO EXECUTION. SOME LARGE PIRATE FLEETS WERE ORGANIZED BY WARLORDS ESPECIALLY IN THE AREA OF CHINA AND THEY CONSIDERED ANYTHING IN THEIR AREA FAIR GAME ON SEA OR LAND NEAR THE SEA OR RIVERS.

THE MAJORITY OF TRIBAL PEOPLE WOULD FOLLOW THE USUAL CUSTOMS OF THE TRIBE AS ALAN POINTED OUT WITH THE DAYAKS. IT IS EASY TO SEE WHY IT WOULD BE NECESSARY TO CHANGE THE FACTS A BIT TO GET THE BACKING TO CHANGE THESE TRIBES OLD CUSTOMS AND BRING THEM IN LINE WITH HIS GOALS AND LAWS. SOME DAYAKS PROBABLY FOUND THEIR WAY TO PIRACY FOR THE ADVENTURE AND LOOT, OR IF THEY WERE OUTCAST FROM THEIR TRIBE OR IF ENSLAVED. A LOCAL TRIBESMAN HANGING AROUND A TRADEING PORT MIGHT FIND HIMSELF FULL OF RUM AND SIGNED ON A SHIP BEFORE HE WOKE UP.
AS MENTIONED ABOVE THE PIRATES ARE A GROUP WHO USED PSYCOLOGICAL WARFARE, BLACKBEARD TRIED TO LOOK LIKE A DEAMON AND TO BUILD HIMSELF A FIERCE REPUTATION THIS WORKED IN HIS FAVOR AND MADE HIM MORE FAMOUS WHICH WAS IMPORTANT TO HIM. SOME OF THE OTHERS MENTIONED ABOVE USED BRUTALITY AND EXTREME CRUELTY TO BUILD THEIR REPUTATION SO ALL WOULD FEAR THEM OR BECAUSE THEY WERE HOMOCIDEL MAINACS. SOME PIRATES WOULD RUN UP THIER BLACK FLAG AND IF IT WAS A KNOWN FLAG IT SIGNALED SURRENDER NOW OR NO QUARTER WILL BE GIVEN. OFTEN THAT WOULD YEILD A EASY VICTORY WHICH MOST PIRATES PREFERED AND THE SPARED CREW WOULD SPREAD THE STORY AND DESCRIBE THE FLAG ADDING TO THEIR REPUTATION. THEY MAY HAVE SPARED SOMEONE ON A SHIP THAT DID NOT SURRENDER FOR THE SAME REASON SO HE COULD TELL OF THE HORRIBLE FATE OF HIS CREWMATES AT THE HANDS OF THE PIRATE WITH THE BLACK FLAG WITH THE RED SKULL.
WITH ALL THE DEFINITIONS OF PIRATES WERE THE VIKINGS PIRATES? THEY CAME FROM THE SEA TO ATTACK TOWNS AND WOULD ALSO ATTACK A FORIGN SHIP AT SEA. IF SO VIKING SWORDS,SPEARS,SHIELDS AND AX CAN BE ADDED TO PIRATE WEAPONS. SOME OF THEIR HORNED HELMETS AS WELL AS THEIR FIERCE WAR CRYS COULD ALSO BE CONSIDERED AS PSYCOLOGICAL WEAPONS. :cool:

IT WOULD SEEM THE ONE THING THAT ALL PIRATES MUST HAVE IN COMMON IS THEIR PRIMARY MEANS OF TRANSPORT, RESIDENCE AND BASE OF OPERATIONS IS A SHIP OR A FLEET OF THEM. IF YOU DO THE SAME THINGS AS PIRATES ONLY ON LAND AND TRAVEL BY HORSE YOU ARE CALLED A HORDE. :)

[David]

In any case, let's leave our Ibans, but let's leave them without the stigma of being pirates. They were not.
Well Alan, i understand your defense here because of the way the term "pirate" was used at the time as an excuse to take action against these people. Still, what ever you choose to call it, making inland raids to gather heads and slaves still isn't a very neighborly act. I am not sure that calling the Ibans pirates makes their actions look any worse. Actually, these days, with all the romantic nonsense that surrounds pirates thanks to the likes of Johnny Depp and crew, i would imagine "pirate" would carry less of a stigma than headhunter and slaver. :)
Another example of similar types of acts (inland raids from the sea) that we don't tend to call piracy would be the Viking raids.

[fernando]

Well Alan, i understand your defense here because of the way the term "pirate" was used at the time as an excuse to take action against these people. Still, what ever you choose to call it, making inland raids to gather heads and slaves still isn't a very neighborly act. I am not sure that calling the Ibans pirates makes their actions look any worse. Actually, these days, with all the romantic nonsense that surrounds pirates thanks to the likes of Johnny Depp and crew, i would imagine "pirate" would carry less of a stigma than headhunter and slaver. :)
Another example of similar types of acts (inland raids from the sea) that we don't tend to call piracy would be the Viking raids.

Amen

[Jim McDougall]

I'm really glad to have the application of the term pirate resolved and most interestingly analyzed, as well as the explanation for how the term was misapplied to the Iban. It is always good to have the actual perspective on often misunderstood historical events and situations.

I am hoping we can return to looking into the weaponry of the pirates, perhaps considering the weapon forms they might have gained access to in thier capturing of vessels. For example, the "Quedah Merchant" captured by Kidd would likely have had a variety of Indian weapons that would have appealed to the seamen, and kept for the brandishing previously mentioned. It seems we have discussed Indian weapons with heavy and shorter blades that might have served on Indian vessels, possibly those might resurface here.

Most importantly, I have not yet seen any examples of the most prevalent weapon likely seen aboard pirate vessels..the cutlass. Naturally this term, as terminology seems key in this discussion, is rather loosely applied to heavy, short bladed weapons, many with large guards for the hand. The heavy 'Sinclair sabre' (another well known misnomer) of N.Europe and other heavy short sabres of the 17th century were likely candidates, but the hunting hangers of English and European gentry of mid 17th century found even more established favor.
Hopefully we might see examples of these that would represent the 'Golden Age' (1670's-1720's) as well as the later regulation naval patterns that would see use as piracy prevailed in varying degree wherever trade vessels went.

All best regards,
Jim

[A. G. Maisey]

I agree that in a loose, general sense, the application of the term "pirate" can be extended far beyond the strict dictionary definition that I am prepared to accept in the case of the Iban and Brooke, however, as I have already stated, I am not writing in general terms. My remarks apply specifically to the case of the Iban, Brooke, and the British government.

In casual conversation we can use language in a very flexible manner. We can do the Humpty Dumpty thing and make our words mean what we want them to mean.We can even be as Mrs. Malaprop, and people will still understand us, and not take us to task for it.

However, in any exchange of ideas there comes a point where we need to determine exactly what we mean when we use a word.

The word "pirate" has a very distinct and very quantifiable value when we apply the test of correct usage. That value can change from place to place, and from time to time. In those countries which use American English, and most particularly in the second half of the 20th. century, it is clearly quite legitimate to extend the boundaries of the value of the word "pirate". For example, in colloquial usage, we can pirate another man's woman, and by the pirating thereof, we become a pirate. But this is 20th century, colloquial usage. It is not the usage that would apply in the 1840's, at a government level, in England.

In England, in the first half of the 19th century, the memory of pirates, and their continuing existence, was still very real. At that time, and in that place the term "pirate" was on a par with the term "terrorist" , today. When Brooke approached the British government for assistance he was well aware that his requests would receive better consideration if he used the emotive term "pirate", rather than to describe the rice farmers of the inland hill country as marauding tribesmen, or something similar. So, all these small groups of rice farmers were overnight turned into "Sea Dyaks" and "pirates".

Pirates attack ships at sea, and interfere with international trade. In 1839 England was at the height of its glorious days of Empire. How could a request to eliminate the wolves of the sea be denied? So Brooke with the help of a friend of long standing, a Captain Keppel,got his assistance, and set about establishing his minor kingdom. But it took until the early years of the 20th century before the Brookes were able bring all the "Sea Dyaks" to heel.

The major reason for the Iban taking of heads is that it formed an integral part of the culture's system of sexual selection, just as the weaving of the Iban women established the hierarchy for Iban females. As such, the taking of heads was essential for the continued viability of any tribal group, within the culture. The Iban were behaving in accordance with long established cultural traditions of the place where they lived.

When James Brooke arrived on the River Sarawak he brought with him the values of a foriegn culture, and he set about applying those values to the cultures which he intended to dominate. Brooke had no problem at all with the Iban taking heads and slaves, provided those Iban gave their allegiance to Brooke, and paid their taxes.

So now tell me:- who exactly was the pirate here?

Was it the Iban, living in their own country and in accordance with the traditions of that country, or was it James Brooke, who with the assistance of the British Government effectively invaded the country of the Iban and imposed taxation upon them?

The name of this forum implies that the participants have some knowledge and understanding of the ethnic values applicable to those weapons and cultures which are discussed here. I would most humbly suggest that before applying the label of "pirate" to the Iban, it may be a very good idea to learn a little about this culture, and the way in which the Brookes and Britain destroyed it.

We all know that victors write the history books.

The Iban were not pirates in any sense of the word.

[Jim McDougall]

Beautifully and profoundly written Alan. I think you have well established the ethnographic perspective concerning the Iban tribe and that the placing of them among the unsavory category of pirates is categorically incorrect.
As I mentioned, I'm really very glad that you posted here on this topic and that you have so well clarified the importance of understanding the much deeper traditions and cultures of these tribal groups.

I think that with that established, there remains the possibility that the sea going marauders that were indeed pirates, and obtained these deadly and formidable appearing parangs might have wielded them effectively for the purposes previously described. While the Sea Dyaks, or Iban, were absolutely not pirates, thier weapons might have found pirate use.

All very best regards, and thank you again for the outstanding perspective.
Jim

[VANDOO]

A WEAPON THAT WAS USED TO GOOD EFFECT WERE THE SWIVEL GUNS, THE ORIGIN IS SUPPOSED TO BE EUROPE AND THEY FOUND THEIR WAY TO CHINA AND KOREA LATER AND WERE VERY POPULAR THERE. IN INDONESIA,MALAYSIA,BORNEO AND PHILIPPINES THEY WERE OFTEN CALLED LANTKA. THEY WERE EASILY MOVED FROM PLACE TO PLACE AND WERE EASILY LOADED AND COULD BE HIDDEN UNTIL THE ENEMY WAS CLOSE THEN MOUNTED AND FIRED QUICKLY. THEY WERE AN ANTI PERSONEL WEAPON DESIGNED MOSTLY TO FIRE AT CLOSE RANGE AND CLEAR THE DECKS. THEY WERE USUALLY LOADED WITH MULTIPLE PROJECTILES AND MOST ANYTHING COULD BE USED AS LONG AS IT FIT DOWN THE BARREL. A STICK WAS PLACED IN THE SOCKET AT THE BACK TO GIVE THE GUNNER SOME DISTANCE FROM IT AND ALSO TO GIVE LEVERAGE WHEN SWIVELING IT. THESE EXAMPLES ARE ALL FROM BORNEO AND THE 2 ARE INDONESIAN.

[VANDOO]

SOME EUROPEAN VERSIONS AND ONE THAT LEWIS AND CLARK TOOK ALONG ON THEIR EXPLORATIONS. SOME WERE BREACH LOADERS.

A INTERESTING BIT OF INFO. IN THE 1970'S AN AMERICAN FROM FLORIDA SUBMITTED A REQUEST TO THE GOVERNMENT FOR LETTERS OF MARKE. HIS PROPOSITION WAS THAT HE WOULD PREY ON ALL THE DRUG RUNNERS AROUND FLORIDA AND GET TO SELL THE VESSELS AND CONTENTS AND KEEP ANY MONEY AND WOULD TURN OVER ANY DRUGS TO THE GOVERNMENT. DURING THIS TIME A TYPE OF PIRATE WAS PREVELENT THRUOUT THE CARIBEAN THEY WOULD SIGN ON AS CREW HERE AND KILL THE OWNERS ONCE AT SEA AND USE THE BOATS TO RUN DRUGS. MANY BOATS WERE ALSO TAKEN BY SPEED BOATS FULL OF DRUG PIRATES AND ALL ON BOARD KILLED. MANY SAIL BOATS AS WELL AS POWER BOATS AND CREWS DISSAPEARED DURING THOSE YEARS.
A RELATIVE OF MINE LIVED IN FLORIDA DURING THOSE YEARS AND TOLD A STORY OF A FRIEND OF HIS COMING BACK INTO PORT WITH ONE SIDE OF HIS SAILBOAT BLACK. WHEN ASKED WHAT HAD HAPPENED HE SAID A SPEED BOAT HAD CAME UP ON HIM OFFSHORE AND THE MEN HAD GUNS ,SO WHEN THEY GOT CLOSE HE THREW TWO HANDGRENADES HE KEPT FOR SUCH EMERGENCYS IN THEIR BOAT AND DUCKED AND LEFT THEM SINKING AND BURNING. IF THE STORY WAS TRUE THEN AT LEAST ONE BOATLOAD OF PIRATES WENT MISSING IN THE 1970'S.

[Rick]

Explore the word 'Buccaneer' for awhile ? ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buccaneer

[VANDOO]

SOMETIMES GRENADES BOMBS WERE THROWN DURING BOARDINGS SOME WERE IRON OUTSIDE, SOME WERE WOOD OR GOURDS WITH SCRAPNEL INSIDE AND SOMETIMES HAD WIRE WRAPPED ON THE OUTSIDE. ANOTHER TYPE WAS HEAVY GLASS AND PRODUCED SOME VERY BAD SCRAPNEL ANOTHER WAS A TYPE OF CHEMICAL GRENADE REFERRED TO AS A STINK POT. THE STINK POT WAS USUALLY THROWN BELOW DECKS OR INTO CABINS TO FORCE OUT THE OCCUPANTS. THEY WERE OFTEN MADE WITH BURNING SULPHUR, RARELY FIREBOMBS WERE USED BY PIRATES AS THEY DID NOT WANT TO BURN UP A SHIP BUT TO LOOT IT. GLASS BOTTLES WITH TURPENTINE OR KEROSCENE WITH A RAG FOR A WICK WAS THE USUAL FORM. SOME OF THE ARABIC GRENADE BOMBS WERE CERAMIC ON THE OUTSIDE WITH SCRAPNEL INSIDE.

[fernando]

This is ( again ) from a book i have on Piracy and Corso ( Privateers ):
... Contraband operations by the Dutch caused the evacuation of local French residents from the western Hispaniola, which contributed for the abandon of several domestic animals which, in wild conditions, reproduced abundantely.
This has increased hunting activities. Wild bulls and pigs were then prepared the Caribean Indian way ( buccan ), which pleased passing by contrabandists, corsairs and pirates, both for its taste and also for its capacity to be stocked, due to its smoke treatment. This was the first reason for these guys being called buccaneers whom, gathering some wealth with the meat trade, became a threat to the people in the oriental part of the island. Quickly the hostilities started between both sides and, within time, most of these bucaneers quit their frequent wandering into the mountains, living in isolated straw huts, adopting piratic habits.
As weaponry, they used at the belt three or four knives and a machete (cutlass ?) and a pouch with gunpowder and lead. Generaly they used a musket made in Dieppe, of large caliber and long barrel, shooting bullits of two ounces weight. They preferred gunpowder from Cheerburg, at the time known as the best quality, becoming named as bucaneer gunpowder.
From what i understand, in a politic perspective they were not considered as "classic" pirates, but a disperse comunity of hunters and bandoleers ( bandits ), this not meaning they didn't worry the authorities. They lived as savages, regconizing nobody and accepting no leadership among therm, doing a thousand atrocities.

[VANDOO]

ISLAMIC CERAMIC BOMB/ GRENADES, 10 TO 12 CENTURY SOME WERE NO DOUBT JUST FIRE BOMBS NON EXPLOSIVE BUT WERE CHANGED WHEN GUNPOWDER BECAME AVAILABLE. i DON'T KNOW IF PIRATES EVER USED THEM BUT THEY MAY HAVE.

[Rick]

Great picture of the Indian smoking process Fernando .

Pity the poor Grenadier Barry; I'll bet those things killed as many throwers as receivers . :eek: ;) :D

[A. G. Maisey]

From memory, Oxford defines 'machete' as a cutlass.

[VANDOO]

IT IS SAID RIFLES OR MUSKETS WERE FIRST CHOICE WHEN CLOSING IN BY PIRATES AND PISTOLS SECOND THEN THE SWORD OR AX. DURING THE TAKING OF A SHIP ANY SANE PIRATE WOULD PREFER TO SHOOT DOWN HIS ENEMY FROM A DISTANCE OR PERHAPS STAB HIM IN THE BACK THAN TO FACE HIM IN A SWORD FIGHT AS NOT ONLY COULD THE OTHER FELLOW BE A BETTER SWORDSMAN OR GET LUCKY BUT WHILE ENGAGED YOUR BACK WAS EXPOSED.
RIFLES AND PISTOLS WERE USUALLY LOADED WITH MORE THAN ONE BALL ,USUALLY ONE THAT FIT THE BARREL TIGHT AND PERHAPS 2 OR MORE THAT WERE A BIT SMALLER. THIS LESSENED THE CHANCE OF A NEAR MISS CONSIDERABLY AND ALSO ADDED TO THE KNOCKDOWN POWER OF THE WEAPON IF ALL STRUCK. I WILL TRY AND ADD SOME PICS OF SOME OF THE GUNS THAT MAY HAVE BEEN USED AND SOME STRANGE ONES AS WELL. THE RIFLE IS A SEASERVICE BROWN BESS CIRC. 1745, MADE SHORTER FOR SERVICE ON BRITISH SHIPS, THE PISTOL IS A SPANISH MIQUELET CIRC. LATE 16 TO EARLY 17 CENTURY. THE LAST IS A DUCKFOOT PISTOL ,ALL BARRELS FIRE AT ONCE SOME CAPTIANS CARRIED THEM AS THEY WORKED WELL AGAINST A MUTINY.

[VANDOO]

A FEW MORE GUNS FROM THE PERIOD THAT MAY HAVE SEEN USE BY PIRATES. 1. A BORDINGAX PISTOL GERMAN 1600'S, 2. A 1660 ENGLISH SMOOTHBORE FOWLING GUN (SMOOTH BORE GUNS WERE FAVORED BY BUCCANEERS), 3. 1717 FRENCH 69 CAL., 4. FRENCH TRADE GUN 1700'S, FRENCH MATCHLOCK 1690, 5. SPANISH 70 CAL. 1756.
THE PICTURES DID NOT COME OUT IN THE ORDER LISTED IN SORRY.

[VANDOO]

A FEW EDGED WEAPONS, ABOUT TIME EH? :D

1. BOUCAN KNIVES OFTEN MADE FROM BROKEN WEAPONS WERE USED BY BUCANEERS.
2. CUTLASS, 1500'S TO 1700'S STYLE
3. CUTLASS OPEN BASKET
4.HANGER
5.SMALLSWORD
6.BOARDING AX CIRC. 1700'S

SO FAR MY PIRATE POSTS HAVE MOSTLY COVERED WEAPONS FROM MORE RECENT TIMES AND OF EUROPEAN ORIGIN. THE FIRST MENTION OF PIRATES GOES BACK TO ANCIENT GREECE, ROME ECT AND NO DOUBT BEFORE WRITTEN LANGUAGE WAS INVENTED TO RECORD IT. AFTER ALL A GROUP ON ONE ISLAND OR CONTINENT MIGHT HAVE BEEN NOTED FOR PADDELING AND SAILING TO OTHER ISLANDS TO RAID AND PLUNDER SEASIDE VILLAGES BEFORE WRITING WAS AVAILABLE. THE VICTIMS OF SUCH ATTACKS WOULD HAVE HAD A TERM FOR THESE RAIDERS FROM THE SEA EVEN THEN. PIRATEING INCLUDED ATTACKS AT SEA AS WELL AS RAIDS ON LAND WHERE CONVIENT. SOME RAIDERS WERE CALLED BY OLDER NAMES BEFORE THE TERM PIRATE WAS COINED IF I REMEMBER IT CAME FROM A LATIN WORD USED DURING ROMAN TIMES.
THESE PICTURES AND INFORMATION IS JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG AS THERE HAVE BEEN SEA RAIDERS ALL OVER THE WORLD FOR A VERY LONG TIME. THERE WERE AFTER ALL OTHERS BESIDES (PIRATES OF THE CARRABEIAN)

[Freddy]

This big knife would fit in quite nicely. I haven't a clue where it comes from. Just picked it up because it was cheap :p :D

Total length is 41 cm

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/knife4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/knife1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/knife3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/keris_hanuman/knife2.jpg

[fernando]

... THE TERM PIRATE WAS COINED IF I REMEMBER IT CAME FROM A LATIN WORD USED DURING ROMAN TIMES.

From the greek πειρατής ( peiratés ) derived from πειράω ( atempt, assault ), by the latin pirata.

[fernando]

After the drawing of a hanger, here is a real one.
Indeed a handy sword to use abord ships, with a short but wide and thick blade.

[M ELEY]

Hello folks,
I haven't posted in quite awhile (sorry, been busy!), but I stopped by, saw this thread and just couldn't leave it alone! I've been amassing a small collection of what could be called "pirate swords", boarding weapons and pieces that might have seen sea service for several years now (with what little funding I can manage). Being untechnological, I can't post pics, but I'd be happy to send some good ole-fashioned photos to one of the moderators to post if anyone is interested. Jim, we've discussed these weapons in the distant past (right before the 1st "Pirates of the Caribbean" movie, I recall) and I still have that Spanish Caribbean cutlass I sent you to look at. There's just something fascinating about pirates/privateers and the Age of Fighting Sail... :o
Mark

[Jim McDougall]

Avast Mark!!!! :) It has been a long time, and I do remember the great talks on the pirate theme! This thread has been a lof of fun, and actually I've been away from it a bit myself. Apparantly the guys have really added some pretty interesting entries here lately.

Very nice cutlass Fernando! Looks like a British hanger c.1750's with a pretty substantial blade mounted in it. Thanks for the historical material and perspective too.

Vandoo, great stuff ! I'm beginning to wonder if you've traded in that war bonnet I always picture you wearing for a tricorn with jolly roger! Thank you for all the comprehensive material on pirate weapons, including the not often thought of grenades.

I appreciate all the insight everybody has added on the terminology and etymology as well.

Freddy, that scary 'Crocodile Dundee' lookin' piece seems likely to be a theatrical item made to resemble old Italian falchions from about 16th c. and even has had interpretations of the familiar Genoan 'sickle marks' added. Even if ya didn't use it, it might scare a guy to death :)

Thanks very much everybody for keeping this thread going. I always hope these threads will do just as this has, to serve as a sort of comprehensive reference resource for future research and giving us all better understanding of the subject.
I know this thread has gotten me to rewatch the pirate classics over again, and looks like we've even hooked the old salt Mark Eley!! :) Looking forward to those pictures Mark!

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thanks, Jim. Good to be back. I have also thoroughly enjoyed this thread, the general discussion and pics sent in. There are many books on pirates/privateers out there, but I find the best one that covers the entire pirate tradition from ancient times to present and in all cultures is "Pirates- Terror on the High Seas from the Caribbean to the South China Sea", JG Press. You mentioned pirate movies and I had a vague recollection of the original Disney classic Swiss Family Robinson and their encounter with the Indonesian pirates. Great old flick! Anyway, I'll send the pictures soon...

[kronckew]

in the past i've seen a number of UK fire axes passed off by vendors as 'boarding axes' yesterday there was an axe sold as a long handled fireaxe from a victorian fireboat. to me it looks more like a 19c UK boarding axe passed off as a fire axe. i bid on it justincase but was outbid. hope the buyer was looking for a boarding axe rather than the std. short handled fireaxe normally seen. this axe has a british broad arrow mark on the blade over an N, and a small brass numbered plate on the haft with a 'P' over a '48' (no 48 port?). thought i'd rescue a picture of it for the pirate thread, nothing like a good boarding axe to open up them locked boxes and doors while looting, and removing other obstacles, like victims.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/boarding.jpg
this may or may not be one, but looks typical of the breed.

[VANDOO]

AUXILLARY WEAPONS/ TOOLS, GRAPPELING HOOKS AND BELAYPIN. 1915 MORO TROOPER WITH ALARM GONG, NOTE THE CANNONS IN THE PICTURE. 1910 CHINESE PIRATES IN HONG KONG ABOUT TO GET SHORTENED BY A HEAD.

[kahnjar1]

Known as LANTAKA cannon. A couple of pics of these at Fort Siloso, Singapore. Origin is Portuguese I believe and no doubt were used to either repel boaders or to clear the decks of opposition during boarding.
Regards Stuart

[kahnjar1]

Known as LANTAKA cannon. A couple of pics of these at Fort Siloso, Singapore. Origin is Portuguese I believe and no doubt were used to either repel boaders or to clear the decks of opposition during boarding.
Regards Stuart
Sorry missed the second pic---herewith. :o

[HangPC2]

Malay Cannon of the 17th & 18th Century



Cannon such as these were being manufactured nearly one hundred years before the arrival of Europeans to this part of the world. It is believed that gun making was introduced to the region by Muslim traders from the Middle East.

The cannon are smooth bore and muzzle loading. They were used as weapons of war and also signalled the start and end to fasts during the period of Ramadan. The firing of cannons was also used by royalty to announce a royal birth or wedding.




http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9555/malaycanon01ui5.jpg


http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1337/malaycanon02ut3.jpg



Sources : http://www.fortsiloso.com/museum/malay.htm

[HangPC2]

Meriam Lantka (Lela Rentaka)




http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/2112/lantkalelarentakacanon0fd2.th.jpg (http://img352.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lantkalelarentakacanon0fd2.jpg)

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/6427/lantkalelarentakacanon0mt7.th.jpg (http://img352.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lantkalelarentakacanon0mt7.jpg)

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4807/lantkalelarentakacanon0me2.th.jpg (http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lantkalelarentakacanon0me2.jpg)

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6749/lantkalelarentakacanon0xd0.th.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lantkalelarentakacanon0xd0.jpg)

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8484/lantkalelarentakacanon0fm7.th.jpg (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lantkalelarentakacanon0fm7.jpg)

[Paul Macdonald]

Arrrr lads!

Regarding pirates, I may have discovered the whereabouts of the sword of the famous Barbarossa (aye, famous before he even starred in Pirates of the Caribbean!).....in Scotland.

I`m saying no more until I can provide a photo and provenance, otherwise they`ll clap me in irons!!

Macdonald

[fernando]

...Cannon such as these were being manufactured nearly one hundred years before the arrival of Europeans to this part of the world. It is believed that gun making was introduced to the region by Muslim traders from the Middle East.

Are you sure ? Maybe not necessaily so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lantaka

I am not an expert, but aren't those suspension dolphins on some of the pictured models of Spanish/Portuguese influence?


The cannon are smooth bore and muzzle loading. They were used as weapons of war and also signalled the start and end to fasts during the period of Ramadan. The firing of cannons was also used by royalty to announce a royal birth or wedding.


Lantakas had a very wide use, even becoming currency, the so called "cannon money" ... in the form of small pieces and even miniatures.
These were auctioned in 1989 in Lisbon; the triple barreled one for a fortune.
Fernando

[fernando]

May we come to the conclusion that piracy allways existed, as actually it may still exists ... i mean classic pirates, not the sophisticated version ones :D . Weaponry used became therefore more and more modernized.
The event depicted in the attached picture just took place "the other day".
It appears that the China Sea, after the opium war, was boiling with shameless pirates, that assaulted civilian merchant junks, also imperial ones, even threatening westerners.
Some guy called Mah Chow Wong was one of the mightiest, leading various fleets and with enough wealth to bribe whomever necessary.
They wouldn't hesitate to atack territories under Portuguese protectorate, such as Macau. This gave place for local traders, fishermen and ship owners
to ask the mandarins escort for their boats and guard to their businesses by Portuguese forces. By around 1855 a total of almost 200 Portuguese lorchas, handled by mixed Chinese and Portuguese crews, were hunting these pirates. Weapons then used were rifles, swords ( sabres ) and axes.

[Yannis]

Arrrr lads!

Regarding pirates, I may have discovered the whereabouts of the sword of the famous Barbarossa (aye, famous before he even starred in Pirates of the Caribbean!).....in Scotland.


Barbarossa had nothing to do with any silly Hollywood "history" or Caribbean at all. He was Mediteranean

Check this (http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=Barbarossa&gwp=16)

[Jim McDougall]

Arrrr lads!

Regarding pirates, I may have discovered the whereabouts of the sword of the famous Barbarossa (aye, famous before he even starred in Pirates of the Caribbean!).....in Scotland.

I`m saying no more until I can provide a photo and provenance, otherwise they`ll clap me in irons!!

Macdonald

Its great to have you join in with us in our motley crew here Paul!!! :) and I'm really looking forward to hear more on your discovery. It is clear you have a keen knack for tracking incredibly important historical swords.
Please tell us something soon OK....this kinda stuff keeps me up nights.

Yannis......you're quite right, Barbarossa was in the Meditteranean, and these 'Barbary Pirates' really got around. Remember that there was considerable trading in the Meditteranean , from the Maghreb to Spain, England, France, Italy and there were was at least one Armada galleon wrecked in Scotland. Spain and Scotland were well established allies, and Bonnie Prince Charlie, was born in Rome, as the Royal House of Stuart was Catholic, by religion linking Spain, Italy, France and the Holy Roman Empire of Eastern Europe.

I would not be the least but surprised with a Meditteranean sword found in Scotland, as I have seen an example of 'nimcha' also from the Maghreb being worn by an English noble painted in the 17th century.

All best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

Considering the fleet size, wealth and overall achievements of Hayreddin Barbarossa, I cannot think of any other pirate in history that nearly comes close to him. Captain Morgan was promoted to governor of Jamaica? Well, Brabarossa had all of Algeria and Tunisia as a fiefdom. Considering that his fleet had more ships than his Catholic enemies combined, I would expect him to have possessed more than one sword, and I would expect his weapons to have been quite ostentatious and lavish in their decoration. I remember the portrait published in North's monograph on Islamic Arms, but I think this portrait is a century later than Barbarossa. I would expect a nimcha as far as the blade is concerned - something similar to the nimcha in Elgood's book on Arab arms, but I am not so sure about the hilt. The quillons and the hand protection typical of the Maghrebi seifs/nimchas perhaps came as a result exactly of Barbarossa's campaigns in the Western Mediterranean, as his men must have captured a large quantity of European swords and other weapons. We might perhaps even be treated to a sword of Genoese manufacture, a gift or trophy. I too am eager to see what one of Barbarossa's swords may have looked like.

[kahnjar1]

May we come to the conclusion that piracy always existed, as actually it may still exists ...
.................and this is how the Singapore Police deal with it! Note the deck mount!

[HangPC2]

Malay Firearms


Rifled Musket & Pistol


# Pemuras (Malay Decorated Traditional Gun)

# Bedil Istinggar (Malay Flintlock Musket)

# Tarkul


Malay Cannon


# Lela Rentaka

# Lela Rambang

# Tahan

# Lada Sicupak (Aceh Cannon)

# Nang Liu-Liu (Patani Cannon)

# Seri Patani (Patani Cannon)

# Seri Negeri (Patani Cannon)

# Badak Berendam (Kedah Cannon)




Brunei Darul Salam


Pemuras


http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1426/pemurasdankargabruneiry4.jpg

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2633/pemurasbruneizr6.jpg

Pemuras and Karga are royal regalia where the Pemuras is a large gun held against the right shoulder of the Panglima Raja wearing red ceremonial attire. While the Karga is the bullet carrier strapped on the left shoulder to the right side of the body.



Aceh Darul Salam


Pemuras


http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5497/jgdielesacehwarriorswit2wx.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2788/atchewarriorsmj9.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1060/image0243ho.jpg




Makassar


Pemuras


http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/5193/bugismusketsg9.jpg

[Yannis]

"...Still in 1515 Oruç Reis sent precious gifts to the Ottoman Sultan Selim I who, in return, sent him two galleys and two swords embellished with diamonds...."
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Barbarossa_Hayreddin_Pasha.jpg)


I would expect a nimcha as far as the blade is concerned - something similar to the nimcha in Elgood's book on Arab arms, but I am not so sure about the hilt. The quillons and the hand protection typical of the Maghrebi seifs/nimchas perhaps came as a result exactly of Barbarossa's campaigns in the Western Mediterranean, as his men must have captured a large quantity of European swords and other weapons. We might perhaps even be treated to a sword of Genoese manufacture, a gift or trophy. I too am eager to see what one of Barbarossa's swords may have looked like.

I think nimcha and any other North African style is later than his time. Straight swords were more in fashion then.

16th century contemporary painting, Louvre Museum, Paris.

And yes Jim, a sword of him could be anywhere in Europe. But it will be extremely difficult to connect it with the person.

[Paul Macdonald]

That`s a great portrait, cheers for posting Yannis!

The sword is in private hands and it`s a matter of getting permission to view, handle, photograph and dcoument it.

I shall keep ye all updated.

Macdonald

[VANDOO]

THE LANTAKA MOST PROBABLY EVOLVED FROM WHAT IS SOMETIMES REFERED TO AS A HAND CANNON. THE HAND CANNON DATES TO THE LATE 13TH CENTURY IN EGYPT AND CHINA AND WAS USED UNTIL AT LEAST THE 1520'S IN EUROPE AND THE MIDDLE EAST. THE EARLIEST WRITTEN EVIDENCE OF MILITARY USE DATES TO THE BATTLE OF AIN JALUT IN 1260 WHERE THE EGYPTIANS USED THEM TO REPEL THE MONGOLS. THEY WERE CALLED MIDFA IN ARABIC THERE WAS ALSO A CHINESE NAME FOR THEM BUT AS IT IS WRITTEN IN CHINESE I CAN'T INCLUDE IT. THE RANGE GIVEN FOR THESE WAS 50 TO 300 METERS, DEPENDING ON THE CALIBRE AND TYPE OF POWDER USED. SOME OF THE EARLY CHINESE ONES WERE VERY ORNATE SHAPED LIKE DRAGONS AND SUCH AND WERE PROBABLY USED ONLY FOR CEREMONYS AND OF COURSE ONLY OWNED BY THE RULERS. THEY WERE ADAPTED TO USE ON SHIPS EARLY ON DUE TO THEIR PORTABILITY AND EFFECTIVENESS AT CLOSE RANGE FOR CLEARING DECKS AND DAMAGING SAILS OR DAMAGING STEARING.

NOTE THAT MANY LANTAKA HAVE A HOLE IN THE REAR TO PLACE A ROD IN TO GIVE LEVERAGE FOR TURNING AND AIMING AND ALSO TO PLACE THE ONE USING IT AT A SAFER POSITION WHEN FIREING. MOST HAND CANNONS ALSO HAVE THIS EXTENDED ROD FOR THE SAME REASONS AND I ASSUME SOME WERE EASILY REMOVED FOR EASIER TRANSPORT ALSO.

[M ELEY]

Wanted to bring this one back before it dropped off the list! Finally got some pics made of my collection. Rick (RSword) has generously agreed to help me post them as soon as he can. I'll start commentary soon so as to save time. I hope to get a little feedback on one of them that remains a mystery to me. Will comment soon...

[HangPC2]

Meriam Kota Lukut (Negeri Sembilan)



Location : Muzium & Kota Lukut, Negeri Sembilan




http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1036/meriamkotalukut01dm3.th.jpg (http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=meriamkotalukut01dm3.jpg)http://img518.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)


Sources : http://artmelayu.blogspot.com/







Meriam Lela Rentaka 1850's (Perak)




A Rentaka is a cannon made by the Malays in copper. Lela is the name of a lady & Rentaka means strong. Gun, sulphur & gun powder was used as fire power. Lela Rentaka is versatile & can be used mounted on boats. During the Pasir Salak War, the Malays used the Lela Rentaka extensively. The 1st record of its use was during the rule of Malacca Sultanate and the fight against the Portuguese in 1511. This Lela Rentaka was made in 1850's.




Location : Kompleks Sejarah Pasir Salak




http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6411/pasirsalakmeriamlelarengp3.th.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pasirsalakmeriamlelarengp3.jpg)

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9237/pasirsalakmeriamlelarencp0.th.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pasirsalakmeriamlelarencp0.jpg)

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/1767/pasirsalakmeriamlelarenbz7.th.jpg (http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pasirsalakmeriamlelarenbz7.jpg)

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/671/pasirsalakmeriamlelarenqj9.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pasirsalakmeriamlelarenqj9.jpg)

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/5175/pasirsalakmeriamlelarenxv8.th.jpg (http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pasirsalakmeriamlelarenxv8.jpg)

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4214/pasirsalakmeriamlelarenjl6.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pasirsalakmeriamlelarenjl6.jpg)




Sources : http://azizanzolkipli.multiply.com

[HangPC2]

Meriam Lela Che Pandak Ibrahim (Perak)




Location : Muzium Perak




http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4532/muziumperakmeriamlelachsw8.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=muziumperakmeriamlelachsw8.jpg)

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1319/muziumperakmeriamlelachyu1.th.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=muziumperakmeriamlelachyu1.jpg)

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7175/muziumperakmeriamlelachku7.th.jpg (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=muziumperakmeriamlelachku7.jpg)



http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3289/muziumperakmeriamazizanjv0.th.jpg (http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=muziumperakmeriamazizanjv0.jpg)




Pemuras (Perak)




http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6006/muziumperakpemurasazizaer5.th.jpg (http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=muziumperakpemurasazizaer5.jpg)

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6409/muziumperakpemurasazizady6.th.jpg (http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=muziumperakpemurasazizady6.jpg)




Sources : http://azizanzolkipli.multiply.com

[KuKulzA28]

I light of recent talk in the Hu-die-dao thread, I'd like to revive this.

Here is the link to a preview of Pirates of the South China Coast, 1790-1810 (http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=DhSrAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=guangdong+pirates+weapons&source=bl&ots=Eqr8s0v7xL&sig=PEoU8-MI8YrQRjUvvcXN104lW68&hl=en&ei=BBeCSvzzLIfq6AP1h7y4CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9#v=onepage&q=&f=false) by Dian H. Murray.

I've decided to highlight a few things to make it easier (since there's a lot of readable text there).

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3182/piratesy.jpg


Does anyone have pictures or examples of any of these weapons?
They are definitely a bit different than your classic Chinese weapons...
Yao-tao? Curved billhook-like blade? Now thats quite different than your normal Chinese weaponry, in fact that reminds me of Taiwanese machetes (開山刀) more than anything else...

[Gavin Nugent]

Something in the news recently;

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/07/captain-kidd-treasure-found-madagascar?CMP=soc_567

And other perspectives too

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/14/captain-kidd-pirate-treasure-unesco-madagascar

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/14/captain-kidd-pirate-treasure-unesco-madagascar

Gavin

[Rick]

Oh, I have to laugh !!
When Barry was here diving on Whydah Galley we all drank in the same Orleans 'watering hole' ; he was a fixture in town, had the most beautiful local girl on his arm .
Friends and acquaintances dove for him on that wreck .
His vessel Vast Explorer was still moored in Provincetown last time I was up there on business .

I'll tell you one thing; that silver/lead 'pig' was not ballast .

Brings back some great memories .
Wild days and nights . :D

You guys have no idea ........ :rolleyes: :D

There's a book about Whydah and Barry written by one of the divers .
Walking The Plank; good read .

[spiral]

You guys have no idea ........ :rolleyes: :D

.

Sounds good! :D

memories to remember... ;)

[Rick]

Very good Spiral .
We used to surf right over where Whydah lies; she lies about 250 yards straight offshore of Marconi's wireless site on the bluffs in Wellfleet .
http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/02/db/ef/e1/marconi-station.jpg

[M ELEY]

Well, that explains why Mr. Clifford didn't get back to me! I contacted him via the Whydah Museum several months ago about a blurb for my book. He contacted me back and said he'd do it!! I was blown away and very happy (I've read all of his accounts on the exploration of the Whydah, his book 'The Lost Fleet' being an exceptional read) and was excited he would be saying something about the book. Unfortunately, he never followed up and my publisher didn't wait for a reply....sigh. I've heard he was heavily criticized for the way he retrieved the ingot off Madagascar. Some uppity archaeologists didn't like the way he did the dive, I suppose.

[Rick]

He moved the Whydah museum out of Provincetown and I haven't kept track of where the artifacts are now .
Controversy seems to follow him .

[M ELEY]

Wow! I wasn't aware of that. Yes, controversial, but still a fascinating fellow. Kind of like a pirate, eh? ;)

[Rick]

What can I say, but aarrr . ;)

[M ELEY]

:D :rolleyes:

[Jim McDougall]

Gav,
Thank you for reviving this thread, it doesn't seem that long ago!
It's always great to see these topics brought current when new material comes up.......in this case in the form of an ingot!

As Rick notes........this aint no ballast!!!
Why would a block of ballast have assayers stamps, and all the other pertinent markings and devices placed on precious metal ingots??
I think the only issue is how to prove that this ingot belonged to Kidd's Adventure Galley, when there were a good number of other pirate vessels frequenting Isle Sainte Marie.

The kinds of marks in groupings correspond to many of those found on the Atocha (1622) ingots by Mel Fisher's group.

It sure sounds like the UNESCO folks have problems with Mr. Clifford, but who knows what the circumstances are, and it seems more than unlikely that he would contrive these findings given his reputation.
It would appear that most of these finds and maritime discoveries end up with far more political strife than anything comparable on terra firma.

Congratulations to our own resident 'Brother of the Sea' on the recent publication of his long awaited novel!!! Bravo Cap'n Mark!!!

[Rick]

Ships of that era were ballasted with stone for the most part .
The marks could possibly have been added later and I suppose forensic archaeology might be able to reveal such .
I would not like to cast aspersions on those involved in its recovery .

Maybe it could be a pig of lead which would be melted and used for small arms shot ? :shrug:

[Jim McDougall]

Ships of that era were ballasted with stone for the most part .
The marks could possibly have been added later and I suppose forensic archaeology might be able to reveal such .
I would not like to cast aspersions on those involved in its recovery .

Maybe it could be a pig of lead which would be melted and used for small arms shot ? :shrug:

Thanks Rick,
It does seem of course that ballast was usually of some sort of disposable commodity, which could be exchanged for the weight of cargo on return trip. I can see large blocks of lead used for shot etc. but again, why would assay, owners marks and the tax stamps be there (there was no 'Royal fifth' on lead was there?).
I agree, for all Mr. Clifford has done in adding so much to the wealth of history and artifacts recovered, it seems unfortunate that he should be discredited by these politically charged organizations.
All the best
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

My curiosity as always compelled me to keep looking into this, as I wondered more on why this 'ingot' would be taken for lead ballast.
As Rick has noted, it seems more common that indeed stone or gravel was used, but as I found more:
In 17th century England lead ingots for ships hold ballast were indeed made; those called 'big pigs' were of 63 bs. weight....there were smaller ones of 32 lbs, accordingly called 'small pigs'.
Apparently the shapes of these ballast ingots could identify nationality of ship in some degree,
English: had a boat like structure, flat front, convex sides
Spanish: rectangular
French: salmon (?) shape

(from: "Underwater and Maritime Archaeology in Latin America"
M. Leshikar-Denton and Erraguerena, 2008)

This bar presented by Clifford is 50 kg. (110 lbs) far larger and heavier than ballast 'pigs', also, again, why would there be the tax, assay markings as seen on ingots of precious metal?

It seems that eyewitness accounts of the sinking of the 'Adventure Galley' in 1698, it was near the spot where it had been careened. As it was sinking it was thoroughly looted and stripped of everything, including cannon.

Clifford had begun dives and excavations in the bay at Isle Saint Marie in 2000, but the wreck they worked on turned out to be Condent's "Fiery Dragon" as confirmed by materials such as Chinese pottery fragments etc.
He apparently found and excavated from 13 wrecks. The one he located the ingot from he believes to be the 'Adventure Galley'.

In the wreck which turned out to be the 'Fiery Dragon', there were piles of ballast STONE ("X Marks the Spot: The Archaeology of Piracy" , Skowronek& Ewen, 2006, p.112).

Since these new discoveries were in May this year, it is unclear what sort of context was found regarding ballast in this location, but the claims that what was found was port construction rubble rather than ship structural elements sounds very suspect. Clearly Mr. Clifford would know the difference.
It indeed appears that ballast 'stones' were in use rather than any lead 'pigs' although Condent' ship was burned and sank in 1721. Regardless, in the case of the 'Adventure Galley', why would a single 'pig of ballast be the only one found. Ballast mounds, regardless of material, typically remain as a single mass. A lead weight of this unusually large and heavy size, suggesting others with it if indeed ballast, would certainly not be swept away by currents.

The 'lore' of Captain Kidd's treasure has fueled the search for lost pirate treasure for centuries, and writers such as Edgar Allen Poe and Robert Louis Stevenson based much of their famed stories on it. There have been countless schemes and innovative syndications etc aligned with romantic optimisms of this 'treasure', which in reality is probably just lore. However, it does not seem infeasible, that a single silver ingot, may just have been overlooked from perhaps deep in the hold of Kidd's hopelessly worn out ship as it sunk.

[Rick]

If I were looking for Kidd's treasure here's where I'd look .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardiners_Island#Captain_Kidd

[Jim McDougall]

Exactly Rick!
Actually it is well known that Kidd did bury 'some' amount of loot, I believe coinage, at a location on Gardiners Island, and that was I believe recovered soon after he was arrested.
He was probably one of the only authentic instances (known) of a pirate actually burying 'treasure'. This notion seems to have escalated into legend from this. I believe that Kidd made overtures to having left treasure at some secret location so as to induce his captors to allow his release to obtain it .
However, this was clearly not taken too seriously, at least outwardly, though some covertly made their own efforts toward locating it.

Toward the middle of the 19th c these tales of Kidd's treasure had become legendary, just as did this most unlikely pirate. There were people all over the northeast, especially in New York areas, who became self styled treasure hunters with all manner of bizarre twists and occult and mystical methods .
The family of noted Mormon Faith founder Joseph Smith were known to have dabbled in this pursuit, and the writers Poe and Stevenson knew of and were inspired by these tales.
Even the fabled Oak Island has become a suggested location for this supposed 'treasure' long since disproven.

As most seasoned treasure hunters often admit, in many ways, the treasure is in the hunt itself! But then, wouldn't it be nice if !.....?????

[ulfberth]

To make the pirates feel at home ....

[ulfberth]

and a workshop for pirates: how to make a cannon :)

[Jim McDougall]

WOW!!
Ulfberth, thank you!!!
What incredible grouping, and brings to mind the probably unimaginable spectrum of arms and armour which might have been present on these pirate ships. Clearly such things as the morion might not fit into the scope of famed illustrations such as those by Pyle and Wyeth, but in reality, these guys used whatever they got their hands on.

And the ship model, skull and cuphilts :)

Thank you again,

Jim

[M ELEY]

I know there is controversy with Mr. Clifford's find, but as Jim points out, this man is an expert. I refuse to believe he can't tell construction materials from an old wreck. The naysayers might convince me that it isn't the Adventure Galley, but not a pile of ordinary rubble. I suspect that the powers that be might not want Clifford or anyone else diving the wreck, so they are 'poo-pooing' it. Why? Greed, arrogance, a grudge against treasure hunters, protection of the wreck site or coast. it's not that hard to imagine. Even when Mel Fisher found the Atocha, it took him many years to claim it, as our own government tried to fleece him of it. Other countries are even stricter, as evidenced by that country (was it Spain?) that seized a treasure hunter's ship a few years back. I've got to find that article again...

Treasure is still out there to be found!
http://gma.yahoo.com/florida-sunken-treasure-discovery-1715-shipwreck-valued-over-143418260-abc-news-personal-finance.html

[Jim McDougall]

Well said Mark!
What is incredible is that these 'press releases' from these large organizations are deliberately using these vague claims against his work in what appears to be certain disharmony regarding conflicting ajendas.

Mr Clifford has been diving and exploring and researching thoroughly in these locations since 2000. One of his colleagues, Ken Kinkor, is probably one of the most thorough and well informed researchers I have ever seen on these subjects. How in the world could this organization expect to pass off this idea of a lead pig!!!???

I think the thing is that because they are a large, well funded organization, they believe that their assertions will be readily accepted by the often and unfortunately less than well informed public. Most people will accept that this must be lead, because they say it is. Why in the world would someone as world renowned and well reputed as Mr. Clifford even try to pull off such a shallow ploy?

As you say, indeed there is treasure out there, at least in some degree.
What is amazing to me is reading through vintage books on maritime history, shipwrecks and piracy and how many 'lost' ships were noted and suggested would probably never be found. Over the years I saved clipping of these as they were indeed found, and placed them in the pages of those books :) It will be interesting one day when others go through my books to find these 'treasures' (of the adventure kind:)

[Rick]

I'll say no more than this:
Mr. Clifford has always been a somewhat controversial figure . :shrug:
As was Mr. Kidd .

[Gavin Nugent]

Treasure is still out there to be found!
http://gma.yahoo.com/florida-sunken-treasure-discovery-1715-shipwreck-valued-over-143418260-abc-news-personal-finance.html

Think seems to be broken...or maybe my IE? Here is another;

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/07/150728-gold-coin-treasure-spanish-shipwreck-florida-ocean-archaeology/

Gavin

[Rick]

There is another just to the South of this inlet .
View is looking North .
http://www.evsjupiter.com/main.htm

[M ELEY]

Jim, you need to write a book about all of your experiences and such! I've said that before! I, fir one, would love to see your research on the wrecks published here, at least! I think with the passing of Michael we all need to be more retrospective of what we have to offer, be it snippets of information or whole columns of knowledge. In any case, regarding Mr. Clifford, I trust in his work. His past 'controversies' involve getting past government beaurocracy red tape on diving privileges, rights to treasure finds, and gossipy/snippy behavior with some of his compatriots, but NEVER falsification of his research.

Organizations, on the other had, I don't trust. Like governments or individuals, they have hidden agendas. Whether it be museums selling off cultural treasures at private auctions or governments that claim all valuable finds of any kind must be surrendered to them for 'the good of the people', it is all BS to me...

Gav, thanks for that unbroken thread-

[VANDOO]

THE CORROSION ON LEAD IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THAT ON SILVER SO AT LEAST THE OUTER COATING WITH THE MARKS AND SUCH ARE SILVER. IF LEAD IS IN THE CENTER THEN PERHAPS SOMEONE STOLE THE REAL SILVER INGOT AND MADE UP THIS ONE BACK IN THE DAY. IN SUCH A CASE PERHAPS THE FAKE INGOT COULD HAVE BEEN SECRETELY THROWN OVER THE SIDE WHEN SALVAGE WAS BEING DONE BY THE THIEF OR THIEVES SO THEY WOULD NOT BE FOUND OUT. THINGS OF THIS SORT HAVE HAPPEND SO IT IS A POSSIBILITY IF INDEED THERE IS LEAD PRESENT. A TREASURE HUNTER AND SCHOLAR OF ALL THINGS PIRATE AND TREASURE WOULD BE ABLE TO TELL. SHIPWRECKS AND PIRATES AAAARGH ! :D

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Mark!! and again well said on the notes on the integrity of Mr. Clifford's achievements and work.
Someone of his stature and reputation is always going to face controversy, and as noted, the notorious Captain Kidd is almost ironically another case of apparently undeserved controversy. But then, these larger than life figures often become such via that very influence, and frankly, makes them far more interesting, actually exciting !

Often I do wish I could write such a book, but honestly the thing in its hard to write in such an organized fashion of ongoing adventures in history and research as I am still headlong into them!! :) That is why my posts on these pages often are so 'Tolstoyean' (?) as it suffices for me for the time. In essence, I am writing a book, but here :)

Speaking of that , it seems that Barry, you have a flair for innovative and creative ideas, as you perfectly illustrate in your deductive explanation on the lead and silver corrosion theme. Wonderfully suggested, and mindful of the "Maltese Falcon" !!!! A perfect plot which reveals the drama and intrigue which actually did prevail in these fantastic times.

Thank you so much guys! and Gav and Rick for the great links and input!!

All the best,
Jim

[Rick]

We believe what we want to believe Jim . :shrug:
http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/37626

Sometimes a big wind is just that .

[kronckew]

oh, god - y'all got me going again. can't not think of this:

how much does pirate corn cost?

a buccaneer.

i recalled my son telling me that one when he was three. he's in his 40's now.

feel free to shoot me. with a lantaka.

[Rick]

oh, god - y'all got me going again. can't not think of this:

how much does pirate corn cost?

a buccaneer.

i recalled my son telling me that one when he was three. he's in his 40's now.

feel free to shoot me. with a lantaka.

Hey, I've heard that one and that's what it actually costs here in Pyrat Country . :D

[Jim McDougall]

We believe what we want to believe Jim . :shrug:
http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/37626

Sometimes a big wind is just that .

Yup! Kinda my way of thinking.

[Rick]

Yes, Jim .
Private funding means Investors .

This reminds me of the fellow that swore there was a freighter full of Platinum sunk off the Cape during the War Years .
He was in the News this Spring .
Uh oh !
No Platinum ... :(
He had 'Private Funding' too .
I hear those individuals are not at all happy .

Rainmakers . :rolleyes:

[Jim McDougall]

Very true Rick,
If you have followed the unbelievable 'Oak Island' uh, mysteries (?) this is a prime example of how far back these kinds of schemes go. Much of the now antiquated structuring and curious symbols etc are the remnants of earlier 'ventures' (usually syndicated) as well as Masonic oriented 'pranks', so the entire area is quite compromised as far as actual archaeological context.

I find the 'lead ballast' claims by this organization rather questionable, and am still looking into more on the nature of these ingots. While I know most people do indeed believe what they want, and especially if its in the news or on TV, I choose to research further without express conclusions either way.

The whole 'Captain Kidd' enterprise has really become a fascinating adventure in itself, and I have been reading through books on these 'ventures' which definitely do fall into the schemes category.

Mr. Clifford's outstanding work on so many historically key wrecks to me does put him in my opinion in a quite different league. Actually I was quite surprised that he was NOT considered a proper archaeologist!

Kronckew, that 'corny' joke was a hoot!! Reminds me of the goofy jokes my youngest grandson and I would come up with when he was about 8 (he's in the Marines now). They were true 'groaners' and we still laugh about 'em.


To DASHIELL VANDOO :), another idea for your plausible plot.....what if while this merry band of pirates, as the were looting the Capt Kidd ship in preparation to be scuttled......perhaps one stashed the ingot of silver in the hold with intents to return to claim it later? much in line with your other scenario.
I' m not sure these guys had the means to fabricate fake lead bars in these places, nor the time or inclination to go to that trouble. Melting down lead for shot is a lot different that smelting an ingot of this size!

[Rick]

I expect it's a real lead bar .
Keep digging though . :p

These particular Investors won, as did Mel's .
Or did they ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Central_America

[kronckew]

i was just reading recently about, i think it was denmark, sending all their gold reserves to canada via ship to keep it out of german hands in ww2. it was sunk by a u-boat.

lots of gold just waiting out there on the ol' briney wet thing.

[Jim McDougall]

As I mentioned, I always tend to search further, and in this case, as much as reluctant to say so, the true nature of this ingot is indeed suspect.

Kidd was in Isle St.Marie in 1699, at this point vs. his first 'pirate' prey, Capt Culliford. Unfortunately Kidds three ships were in terrible shape, the "Adventure Galley"; The Quedah Merchant (a captured Indian merchant vessel) and the "Rouparelle" (also captured, renamed 'November').
Many of Kidds men basically began to mutiny and go to the 'pirate' side, from there things get hazy.

Some say Culliford sank 'November' and left Kidd after stripping the other two ships of materials. What seems odd is that the 'treasure' held on the Quedah Merchant was not taken.
Kidd, took everything remaining off the now nearly sinking 'Adventure Galley' and put aboard the Quedah Merchant to head for New York.

It remains unclear which of the two ships, 'Rouparelle' or 'Adventure Galley' was burned or sunk, but whatever the case, they never left Isle St. Marie.

The 'treasure' on the Quedah Merchant consisted of silver and gold, presumably of both bullion and coin, and some rich textiles, but these were of Indian extraction, so presumably any bullion would most likely have been East India Company.

Which begs the question, 'why would an abnormally heavy silver ingot from Potosi (Bolivia) be found in what is believed to be the remains of the Kidd ship (either of the two abandoned there) . While Kidd may have had plunder from the Indian vessel(s), he had not accessed Spanish vessels (as far as I can find) in these waters .

In looking through information on Spanish silver ingot markings and detail from 17th century and Potosi (Bolivia) in particular, the markings on the Clifford ingot seem somewhat in the same fashion with initials, but lack the other key stamps and marks that characterize Potosi bars. Especially notable is the absence of the assayers 'bite', a scoop taken out by the assayer for testing (and exclusively a practice used at Potosi), with these findings always stamped in the bar along with date and bar number.

In looking into detail on the lead ballast ingots used in ships in these times, it does seem that they were made in these heavy weights ( large pigs) and some smaller, with the shape rather 'boat like' and often with convex facings. They often used stamped markings, initials and dates, but in far less frequency and without any of the often profuse detail of the silver bars of Spain or others presumably .

Also notable is the fact that this is a single bar, and ballast rubble seems to be in mounds in mass, especially in shallow water where a ship simply sank or foundered as careened....or again, was burned. In deep water wrecks the ballast or other contents may be strewn over an area as the ship comes apart and descends.

Interesting research, but would have preferred to find more positive evidence FOR Mr. Clifford's case. Still, I very much look forward to rebuttal's from his group, as mine is simply from various published material, and certainly limited in comparison to his experience and professional expertise.

I still wonder if Vandoo had something there with the silver coated lead ingot idea. Perhaps there was clandestine 'salting ' of these sites, as Mr Clifford has been searching them since 2000. In publications in 2002 and others, nothing had been found but a number of sundry items like bottles etc. which could be debris off any number of the many vessels in this burgeoning pirate haven of those times . As Rick mentioned, the Captain Kidd enterprise like many treasure hunt schemes knows few bounds, and it seems quite possible this might have been a snare placed in Mr. Cliffords corner, if the claims against this artifact/item are true.

[Rick]

1. Fifteen years is a long time for 'Private Funding' to wait for a return .

2. You need evidence besides magnetometer hits to convince our federal gov't. to allow you to hover over an area of ocean with 'mailboxes' to excavate sea bottom within one of our national parks . Hmmm, what to do about physical proof ??

3.The Whydah was well buried deep under a LOT of sand, but it WAS there, no argument . One good find sets you up pretty well in the 'Privately Funded' treasure hunting biz .
Believe what you want to believe Jim . :shrug:

I don't go around making wild assertions; I will assert that the method used to gain Federal permitting for the Whydah Galley project was very 'Salty' .

[Jim McDougall]

Geez Rick!
I thought I was presenting some helpful data for readers who might be forming their own opinions. My note on the possibility of 'clandestine intervention' (= salting) was expressed simply as a personal suggestion which offered Mr. Clifford's case an optimistic option.
I thought that seemed clear, I don't necessarily 'believe' anything, as I am inclined to move either direction as more compelling or plausible data becomes available.

In my suggestion I was actually implying that this bar might have been the product of some earlier 'enterprise' in the ongoing Captain Kidd business from perhaps the 19th century ones such as "Oak Island"; the Palmer Brothers and the more recent ventures off the coast of Viet Nam....or of that ilk. I guess I feel compelled to see someone innocent until proven guilty .

I regret that you misunderstood, and I hope you did not get the impression I thought you were making 'wild assertions'. I hoped my notes here would be received as talking points for further discussion, rather than asserting my assumed beliefs.

In any case, you are an 'old salt' yourself :) and you know a heck of a lot more on these seagoing things than I, so I hope you see my drift. Just trying to fit pieces of a really old puzzle with a lot of them missing .

[Rick]

Then, I apologize to you Jim . :)
When you first joined in on this discussion you had a very high opinion of the person in question despite reading what I had to say .

I would have said a lot more and quite clearly were it not for concerns about legal ramifications .

Got my dander right up, you did .

[Jim McDougall]

Actually Rick, I still do have a very high opinion of him, and what I wrote were the results of my own impartial research, in which I spent quite a few hours and various approaches. I did not realize that what I wrote appeared gauged to what comments you made, although in discussion they were of course seemingly pertinent.

As I mentioned, my suggestions toward optimistic alternate possibilities were placed respectfully as just that , as prudent in circumstances such as these where sometimes disparity in opinions exists. I do indeed believe what I will, but realize others may as well. What I failed to remember is the often unfortunate result of expressing opinions here, and honestly thought what I had tendered was data from research and talking points.

Sorry about the dander :) a lot of it going around lately, and restraint is always good for many reasons, legality notwithstanding .

Thanks for the apology
Jim

[Rick]

Agree, and consider the subject dropped on my part . :)

[Rick]

Just seen on the History Channel :
Pirate Treasure of the Knights Templar
Give it a look and draw your own conclusions . ;)
My conclusion:
Great TV, far fetched; but a payday for certain folks . :rolleyes:

[Ian]

Just seen on the History Channel :
Pirate Treasure of the Knights Templar
Give it a look and draw your own conclusions . ;)
My conclusion:
Great TV, far fetched; but a payday for certain folks . :rolleyes:Yes, I saw that too Rick. A real stretch IMHO. There's always a good excuse when the buried site comes up empty--"someone moved it." The guy from Minneapolis must make a good living off these treasure tales. He had an episode on Captain Kidd's treasure too. If there was anything to his treasure hunts we would have heard about it through regular news channels by now.

I wonder who payrolls this stuff--networks, advertisers. :confused:

Ian

[Jim McDougall]

I have to hand it to this guy, he is a master of 'lore', however at the expense of any true comprehension of real history. I admire the sense of 'magic' and excitement that he theatrically creates, and I admit that I very much miss sometimes. It was fun being a kid and the thrill of believing all of this stuff.

Even so, as when I started this thread, the study of the 'actual' pirates has proven fascinating, and these often bizarre machinations of the lore surrounding them in popular media today is more fun and laughable entertainment than anything else . The masses are easily reached today via many venues and thus these 'romps' or I should say 'tramplings' through history are big time money makers!! far more than any 'treasure' the pirates might have realized !

Naturally, this guy, and the producers certainly must be aware of the truth behind much of this lore, and probably deftly craft these 'adventures' around that material for the thrill of the less informed, and hysterical entertainment of those of us who actually study these topics.

The thoughts of Masonic connection to the pirates, and the skull and crossbones to piratic associations with the Templars are long standing prompts that have been heavily played in historical studies of pirates.
These are of course tenuous at best, but as always, tempting as we slip into the deeply held lore and magical mystery of piracy itself.

It is the writers who created these wonderful myths, from Washington Irving in 1824, who relied on the often sensationalized accounts of earlier writers. These then continued embellishment and expansion into the works of Poe and of course Stevenson.

The truth in the history of these often mysterious figures we collectively know as pirates is fascinating........but these TV and popular media versions are FUN :) and gotta admit, still love "Pirates of the Caribbean" !! Pretty much the same thing, but still addicting.

[kronckew]

didn't see that one. we had a 'bible' thingy here the other night supposed to be about a historian who 'found' the tower of babel. after wasting an hour, they conclude in the last few minutes that it is somewhere in so. west iraq, leaving the vaunted historian in the sinai looking at rock paintings of boats. no pics of the tower ruins, no expedition, no continued next week. ultimately unsatifying & a wasted hour i cannot relive. history makes good TV, but only when it is true or at least logical and well presented. someone once said about telling a story, start at the beginning, work thru to the end. then stop. when they stop before the end, that is annoying more than informative.

[Rick]

Ian, I think that History, Discovery and National Geographic fund most of these shows and provide a living for folks who wouldn't ordinarily make much dough . ;)

Stuff like this sells adverts these days .

[M ELEY]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/08/110829-blackbeard-shipwreck-pirates-archaeology-science/

[Rick]

Now that is cool Mark !
As they said; usually the ship's bell is the major key to identification .
I'll bet the Mayor (an old classmate of mine) is real happy; a great tourist draw .
Doesn't seem there was very much gold found though; too bad .

[M ELEY]

Yes, an amazing find and as you noted, a great tourist draw. Living here in NC, piracy has always been a popular subject! The QAR became stuck on the shoals and Blackbeard moved all of the gold to his other ship ( :( ), burning this sloop to the waterline. At least a lot of interesting artifacts have come out of the wreck, including a tin syringe that probably held mercury to stave off syphilis (I won't go into horrid details about where the syringe was actually inserted!). This medical device was probably one of the artifacts handed over to Teach by the citizens of Charles Towne (Charleston,SC), when the sea dog held that settlement's harbor for ransom. The price, a chest full of pharmaceuticals to treat his sickened crew!

So you know the mayor, Rick?

[kronckew]

...including a tin syringe that probably held mercury to stave off syphilis (I won't go into horrid details about where the syringe was actually inserted!). ...


you know that thing in your head that keeps you from saying things?
mine is damaged ;)

you'd be surprised what can fit. i had a bladder stone a few years ago, during the diganostic phase, they stick a telephone pole with a TV camera on the end up the same place and you can see the little devil on a tv screen. they squirt a local anesthetic in 1st tho. rather unusual sensation.

later, they use a slightly larger version when they crunch up the stone with a laser & yank the pieces out. thankfully under general anesthethesia so you don't know what horrors are going on down there, at least until you wake up & take your first red wee.

p.s. - the initial telephone pole was probably about the thickness of a pencil. ;)

[Jim McDougall]

Indeed, it has been a most phenomenal realization in the most recent studies of these pirates, Blackbeard in particular, that the romanticized notions are very different than what they were really like.

Blackbeard, and probably a number of his crew were suffering from a number of STD's from their depredations, with Mr. Beard having been quite the womanizer possibly the most prevalent. His actions in these last days sought more than treasure..medicine.....and these horrendous tools and 'medicines' were his primary goal .

The Queen Annes Revenge as has been discussed has been mostly recognized as the wreck there in this location, however as always thee is some skepticism. In the early days after its discovery, I developed a line of communication with one of the divers, and of course my main objective was to find swords. It became a long standing gag between us that they kept finding cannon, but no swords. Of course, as the ship was abandoned, the prospects for anything as portable as a sword being found were negligible.
I do remember in later years, the 'politics' in the project became quite an issue, and my contact left the project.

It is always unfortunate that those of us who find vicarious adventure and historical excitement in these finds often end up disappointed as the usual traits of such things are tainted by commercialism and other circumstances which become necessary to support them. Still, we hold dearly to whatever measure of truth and reality can be preserved amidst the flotsam.

[M ELEY]

Amen, Jim, to controversy when it comes to wreck diving, claims on who owns it, authenticity. Glad to hear from you, Jim. You have a PM-

[kronckew]

Things come back to haunt you. My earlier page 1 post of a brass gripped pirate sword Jim thought might be Chinese is sort of confirmed. I'll post it in a new thread.

[David R]

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

[werecow]

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

Nice beladah belabang / parang nabur... I like this blade type. Reminds me of the Michiel de Ruyter nimcha.

[Jim McDougall]

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).

This was a fantastic thread!!! and so good to see again.
I had not recalled these parang nabur, which were of course quite probably used in 'the pirate round' as they were distinctly of cutlass type.

Can you say more on provenance and proven pirate assoc?

Well understand this being a prize in any collection!!

[David]

A genuine and accredited Pirate sword I have, and one of the true prizes of my collection. (original vendors pic).
Indeed a lovely beladah belabang and i understand why you prize it. But what makes it an accredited "Pirate Sword". Accredited by whom. Do we have actual historical references pointed to the use of these swords by pirates in the region. I ask not to be confrontational, but because i would like to know. ;)

[Jim McDougall]

The 'pirate' trope as applied to most edged weapons is of course typically apocryphal. Pirates were notoriously poor record keepers, and there were no 'regulation' weapons (just 'guidelines' :)

Naturally we need to also specify 'which' pirates we are considering for association with a certain weapon, or indeed 'form' of weapon. If they were 'Caribbean' region, it is most unlikely that these Asian weapons would be found, unless an anomaly brought in by someone as a souvenir or trophy from those Asian areas.

The woodcut illustrations well known in popular culture from the well known pirate tales are of course, not particularly likely to be accurate.
I am still fond of the popular pirate tales, but also of learning more on just how much is fact and how much is fiction.
The thing is, while we find that much of this lore is well embellished and not necessarily accurate, yet often we find fascinating elements which are sometimes even more exciting that the original story.

I agree, we should strive for references which support the use of a certain weapon or form in a 'pirate' context, while of course allowing ourselves the joy of thinking,
"maybe, just maybe, it might have been' .
In our speaking openly on the weapon, that is the manner we should view it, until hopefully one day, some obscure evidence is revealed that can empirically prove its provenance or use as surmised.
I have been fortunate to have had numbers of weapons for decades which I stubbornly held onto, in which that very thing occurred. :)

[kai]

Indeed a lovely beladah belabang and i understand why you prize it. But what makes it an accredited "Pirate Sword". Accredited by whom. Do we have actual historical references pointed to the use of these swords by pirates in the region. I ask not to be confrontational, but because i would like to know. ;)
Banjarmasin was a very busy trade port. In contrast to London, I'm not aware of any sponsorship for pirate-like activities by the local nobility...

Actually, the red beladah belabang (stained with "dragon blood") could well be considered a regulation weapon as it was worn by the outer perimeter palace guards.

The shape of the (by western standards short) blade and the adopted hand guard seem to fit the western notion of a pirate sword quite well and arguably should also work well in a melee on board of a ship. I haven't seen any historical account confirming "naval" use though.

Actually, I have to plead guilty myself: When my son was 4 or 5 years old and asked me to show a pirate sword, I pulled out my BB as the most suitable piece from my collection. A reproduction crafted from cardboard/tape/paint served its purpose perfectly... ;)

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

[QUOTE=kai
Actually, the red beladah belabang (stained with "dragon blood") could well be considered a regulation weapon as it was worn by the outer perimeter palace guards.[/QUOTE]

Like this.

[werecow]

Does the dragon blood come from dragons of the komodo variety (I know they're not from the same island, but still)?

[David R]

Does the dragon blood come from dragons of the komodo variety (I know they're not from the same island, but still)?

Dragons blood is a resin used in paints and incense.

Ah well, so my sword turns out not to have the firm Pirate associations that I had read about elsewhere, we live and learn.

[TVV]

Dragons blood is a resin used in paints and incense.

Ah well, so my sword turns out not to have the firm Pirate associations that I had read about elsewhere, we live and learn.

None of our swords, not even the nimchas and cutlasses have any firm Pirate associations, unless they were taken by some 17th century captain in a battle with corsairs/pirates and have ironclad provenance to that effect.

Your beladah belabang is still an incredibly attractive, authentic sword that anyone here would love to have in the collection.

[werecow]

Indeed. I'm 85% sure I almost bought this very one, actually, but alas, was out of sword funds.

Just ran across this (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=146429) thread, thought I'd cross link it here since it mentions an association between the hudiedao and river pirates.

[kai]

I'm 85% sure I almost bought this very one, actually, but alas, was out of sword funds.
Yup, a really nice piece from PeterA. ;)

Just ran across this (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=146429) thread, thought I'd cross link it here since it mentions an association between the hudiedao and river pirates.
That link is just as spurious. Sure, "river pirates" were utilising these - just as everyone in the region.

The slender hudiedao also was a regulation pattern in southern China and quite certainly based on earlier local traditions; the beefier blades seem to be a later "civilian" development to avoid fatal wounds.

Colonial officials were quick to label any resistance as bandit or pirate activity. The real pirates/predators had their bases in European (and later American) harbours. Of course, there also was local piracy & raiding - with whatever weapons were at hand.


Obviously, if you have a somewhat shady occupation, you usually don't want to show that and invite persecution. Same with specific "Ninja" swords - stupid idea... :rolleyes:

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Rick,

Like this.
Apologies, forgot to answer your post #154.

Banjar blades often have dragon's blood decor on their fittings. Despite this, the vast majority of beladah belabang has unstained hilts. This may be partly explained by dragon's blood being most often applied to wooden fittings while most BB hilts are made from horn. Those BB with red-stained hilts usually are carved from wood with rings of dragon's blood added. On other Malay swords though, dragon's blood is rarely found on horn hilts, too.

The "regulation" BB got their name from the red-stained scabbard as in the attached pic.

Regards,
Kai

[David R]

Indeed. I'm 85% sure I almost bought this very one, actually, but alas, was out of sword funds.

Just ran across this (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=146429) thread, thought I'd cross link it here since it mentions an association between the hudiedao and river pirates.

For me it coincided with a refund from an old savings pot.

[Victrix]

Exhibition may be of interest.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Thanks Victrix for the heads up. Here is a more in depth idea of what's on offer.
Regards,
Norman.


https://www.rmg.co.uk/whats-on/national-maritime-museum/pirates

[Maurice]

Indeed a lovely beladah belabang and i understand why you prize it. But what makes it an accredited "Pirate Sword". Accredited by whom. Do we have actual historical references pointed to the use of these swords by pirates in the region. I ask not to be confrontational, but because i would like to know. ;)

The early Borneo expeditions (early 1800's, just after the VOC had been abolished), had as goals of occupying Borneo:
1: Confirming the Dutch flag and offering protection to sovereigns who requested it;
2: Subdue sea plunder by pirates, promote trade, and give peace and tranquility to the many regions where robbers and murderers beset weak nations with calamities.
3: Collect moderate taxes to provide revenue for the government and subsistence for the subjects.

It is point two, mentioned above we have to take in account.
The coastal areas of Borneo where a hotbed of pirates and piracy.
As we know, the beladah belabangs where manufactured (made) in South Borneo, the Bandjemasin area, to be specific in Negara. In Bandjermasin a lot of trade was going on! And there sure were some pirates trading or selling their trophies.

The attached photos give some food for thought:-)

One photo had been made in 1894/1895 by Schadee in the Landak area (NW Borneo). You see a bunch of lovely(?) people, with on the right a man wearing a Beladah Belabang. (Also notice the sundang on the left).

The other photo is a photo of the online database of the Scheepvaartmuseum, collectionnumber S.4543, pirate sword 1825-1850.
(mention the BB blade)...

There is also an old style Beladah Belabang in the Bronbeek collection known, captured from a pirate around 1850, during a raid against piracy in the seas south of the Philipines. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to place a photo here, which I have to ask first.

[Maurice]

Just had contact with John, and I'm allowed to place a photo from the pirate sword from the Bronbeek (in Arnhem) collection.
Captured from 'Alima Baba, uit het Soloschen archipel'.

[gp]

The early Borneo expeditions (early 1800's, just after the VOC had been abolished), had as goals of occupying Borneo:
1: Confirming the Dutch flag and offering protection to sovereigns who requested it;
2: Subdue sea plunder by pirates, promote trade, and give peace and tranquility to the many regions where robbers and murderers beset weak nations with calamities.
3: Collect moderate taxes to provide revenue for the government and subsistence for the subjects.

It is point two, mentioned above we have to take in account.
The coastal areas of Borneo where a hotbed of pirates and piracy.
.

the thought which comes to my mind and perhaps not so a strange thought...with regard to item 2:

for the population and peoples in that part of the world, were not we, the ones from Europe, actually pirates and robbers....?
And concerning " sovereigns ": were they not "bought" and left in their positions and thus allowed the Dutch, English and French to do their (colonial) mischief...? Which was specially a proven policy in the Indonesian archipelago by the VOC and their successor...

Nevertheless then just like now there were and are indeed quite some pirates active...

Beautiful sword from Bronbeek; which museum is a place highlý to be recommended to visit, although the Dutch government wants to close this historical treasure sadly...
It has items and data from the earliest times till the end of WW II and Indonesia's independence.
Most interesting to see there all the diversity of data, items, pictures and cold weapons

https://www.bronbeek.nl/museum

[Jim McDougall]

These parang nabur/beladah belabang are incredibly beautiful and no doubt formidable sabers, and interesting to learn more on them (thanks to Kai i the note on the term meaning dragons blood) . While these seem to have originated (?) in Kalimantan in S. Borneo according to references, I cannot resist noting features associated with Yemen, and perhaps Arab traders which of course brought notable diffusion to and from their ports of call.

The widely flared blades resemble the sabers we have established as having come from Yemen, and the banding around the scabbards resembles saif coming from Yemen as well.

We know that there was both piracy and privateering in times of war with trjbes in these regions, so the potential for circulation of these swords into surrounding areas certainly existed.

We know that 'pirates' (the ones we are familiar with) were not just situated in the Caribbean, but many took the 'round' around the Cape of Good Hope, north past Mozambique to Madagascar, and Comoros Islands. From there they sought to prey on Indian vessels etc. and some apparently reached far into the island archipelagos of Malaysia and perhaps further.
'
We only really know of the pirates of the Golden Age in the works of "Capt. Johnson" but cannot know the full roster of active pirates who dd not make the 'press'. Like trade routes, the voyages of pirates 'networked' and via these same conduits, all manner of goods, and weapons etc. changed hands in various means of contact.

There is no way to assert with confidence that a certain weapon was used by 'pirates', though there are a number retrieved from wrecks with compelling evidence of belonging to a certain pirate...the 'Whydah' for example, to Sam Bellamy.

Though we cannot say for sure, we can presume, through deduction, that certain forms in use in a period, and reasonable record of who used them, that a weapon is 'OF THE TYPE'.

As long as we recognize that evidence is compelling and believe what we will without assertion, the inevitable contention has no legs, but what fun is there? Looking back at the 18 years of this thread, there have been many broadsides and dynamic discords.... I learned a lot!

Glad to see the thread again, I had forgotten! and again beautiful sabers!
The exhibition! Thank you Victrix!!!! I wish I could go, but maybe there will be a catalog?

[gp]

Let's not forget the Barbary pirates ( most of them European renegades in Algiers, Tunis and Sale):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Coast

and shorter home ( at least to Europe), the lads in France:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirkers
https://www.historiamag.com/dunkirkers-17th-century-pirates/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_corsairs

interesting to see which weapons they used / had...
and if any forum member can advise any museums about them,
next to the St Malo one
https://traveltoeat.com/french-corsaires-musee-dhistoire-de-st-malo-st-malo-france/

[Jim McDougall]

Let's not forget the Barbary pirates ( most of them European renegades in Algiers, Tunis and Sale):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Coast

and shorter home ( at least to Europe), the lads in France:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirkers
https://www.historiamag.com/dunkirkers-17th-century-pirates/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_corsairs

interesting to see which weapons they used / had...
and if any forum member can advise any museums about them,
next to the St Malo one
https://traveltoeat.com/french-corsaires-musee-dhistoire-de-st-malo-st-malo-france/


Absolutely not! and surprising that many of those Barbary pirates and others were Dutch (Europeans as you noted). Those guys got around.
Piracy was not a new phenomenon, and not isolated to any area, people, culture etc.
For most of our purposes things focus on the popularized versions of pirate which come of course from "Treasure Island" , Pyle and Wyeth illustrations which derived from Washington Irving, Sir Walter Scott, Poe et al.

In references I have found cases where a pirate referred to his cutlass as a 'shell', for the shell guards that were so often seen on European dusagge (also termed 'Sinclair sabers') in 17th c.

There are not 'pattern books' or 'regulation pirate swords', if course, and in the tag line from "Pirates of the Caribbean".....no 'rules', they're more guidelines'. :)

[Maurice]

the thought which comes to my mind and perhaps not so a strange thought...with regard to item 2:

for the population and peoples in that part of the world, were not we, the ones from Europe, actually pirates and robbers....?
And concerning " sovereigns ": were they not "bought" and left in their positions and thus allowed the Dutch, English and French to do their (colonial) mischief...? Which was specially a proven policy in the Indonesian archipelago by the VOC and their successor...

Ofcourse, I have also my own concerns and thoughts about the goals mentioned above. And I am glad I'm able to look at myself in the mirror every day because they were not the goals that I would have set.
And take into account, that these were different times, and also before the Dutch, English, French and Portugese arrived, there was a lot of missoury at places all over the world.
It wasn't always that civilized or better before the colonial oppressors arrived.
However, this is something that is a hot topic now everywhere, and I understand that. But to dispose of all museum pieces now or put them behind lock and key, I also disagree. We can use it as a learning opportunity, but when I watch the news every day, we haven't learned much yet as a world population.




Beautiful sword from Bronbeek; which museum is a place highlý to be recommended to visit, although the Dutch government wants to close this historical treasure sadly...

What is your source that Bronbeek is on the list of closing by the government?




It has items and data from the earliest times till the end of WW II and Indonesia's independence.
Most interesting to see there all the diversity of data, items, pictures and cold weapons

Unfortunately there is not enough time to update the database, as many objects has no photos placed.
Bronbeek is by far one of my favorite museum. And I feel privileged to have the opportunity to visit the museum often in the past, and mostly that I had been able to visit the Bronbeek depot several times, to do some study.
As a matter of fact I visited Bronbeek a couple of months ago. They have a wonderful exhibition, also to let the visitors overthink and feel about the injustice that happened there a long time ago.
And to keep in track of this thread, the Alima Baba pirate sword is to be seen now in their exhibition!

[Norman McCormick]

for the population and peoples in that part of the world, were not we, the ones from Europe, actually pirates and robbers....?

Hi,
Not a European only trade. The history of the world is full of one group or groups, race, ethnicity, religious leaning etc. etc. coercing another for personal advantage be it labour, land etc. The African slave trade was well established and run by Africans long before Europeans got involved as was conquest and land grabs for power and financial gain. The Vikings were consummate slavers but as they enslaved almost exclusively from Europe it gets little attention these days. Unfortunately slavery, land grabs etc. still go on and as far as I can see it will always be endemic to the human psyche.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/white_slaves_01.shtml

[Jim McDougall]

This has been a fascinating thread which was intended to study the weapons and historic factors involved in piracy, admittedly with focus on the popularized versions most of us are familiar with. It is great to see this active 18 years later, and while there were of course the usual scrapes typical of forum and social media discussions, the valuable and interesting content manages to prevail.

I personally hope that more objective input can continue here without the editorial, idealistic and socio-philosophical perspectives which are better placed in other venues. I think we can all agree that 'piracy', clouded with 'privateering' has always existed in some degree on the seas, in most nations, cultures and times. However my goal here was to recognize the objective characters of the weapons used by all parties engaged in these activities.

I think Captain Kidd was one of the best examples of the fine line between privateer and legitimate preying on vessels and the state of being a renegade outlaw, pirate. Clearly there was great opportunity which attracted many men from various nationalities and ethnic groups. While this of course brought certain influences and biases, for the most part, pirate factions were strongly democratic in a most ironic twist. That being said, IMO that is as much of the political critique as needed to examine the weapons used in these pirate situations of these earlier periods and modern 'piratical' or other circumstances are indeed more political and not useful.

Returning to the central topic.......just WHAT determines a weapon is indeed a bonified pirate weapon? and how do we determine just what forms were in fact in use, and in certain areas in the 'Golden Age' and post Golden Age into early 19th c.?

[M ELEY]

I'm glad to see this thread alive and well after all of these years! As a collector of all things maritime,pirate/privateer, I'm also excited to see that the Maritime Museum is having this display. Too bad I probably won't be able to attend in person-:( Still, the history of piracy, which covers so many nations and many centuries of time, remains a fascinating subject for many. Keep up the posts as I'm enjoying them greatly!

[corrado26]

I want to add two pictures of captain Blackbird which demonstrate how he probably used to wear his armament. The following text I found in my archives but unfortunately don't know its author!

These 'Queen Anne' pistols have always recalled Blackbeard, and the 'Golden Age' of piracy. They are believed to have begun in England during the reign of Queen Anne (r. 1702-1707) but of course there may be more to it, also the term remained loosely applied to these type of pistols long into the 18th c.

Blackbeard, in the popularized illustrations, seems to typically be wearing several braces of what appear to be these 'Queen Anne' type pistols, but I have not found much in detail that substantiates that romanticized notion. It is presumed of course that obviously, with single shot pistols, and that these had to be dismantled (usually with 'turn off' barrels screwed off), that one in his 'line of work' would need multiple shot capacity, thus the number of them.

What is hard to imagine is that he somehow obtained not one pair (brace) of them, but up to three, and all seemingly matched. In paintings of his 'final action' vs. Lt. Maynard in 1718 off Ocracoke, N.C. he is shown with these pistols in place on his belts, while he fights with his sword. Why would these remain attached unfired? but that is artistic license.

Pirates of course used sundry weapons obtained through all manner of acquisition, and any sort of matching or 'typical' weaponry is mostly unlikely if not simply assumed or imagined.

Still, I would like to consider if this weapon, by a London maker might have been in use in the time of Blackbeard. While we know it is 'of the type' , and these were produced well into the 18th c., often even using earlier preferred styles, sometimes amalgamated with later, such as 'rococo' decoration ...it is interesting to try to consider.

John Harman (1693-1760) was apparently apprentice to Henry Antonison with James Freeman, and was 'turned over' to James Shaw in 1707. It is noted (Burgoyne, 2002, p.29-30) that he was 'free' of the gunmakers co. in 1714.
He worked at the 'Cross Guns over against Norfolk Street in the Strand' from 1718-45, and was gunmaker to Frederick, Prince of Wales from 1729.

As this pistol has the crowned proof and viewers marks (P and V) we would presume the gun was made prior to 1714, if by being 'free' on the Gunmakers Co. (of London) in 1714 means he was no longer 'under their jurisdiction'.
However the grotesque face (or pugnosed) was apparently first used by Turvey (London) c. 1720.
Silversmiths of course produced these elements privately, so it may be possible that James Shuder had begun using that form earlier, but that seems unlikely unless it is simply that Turvey was a more profoundly known maker than Harman.


The Blackbeard Image and Queen Anne pistols
________________________________________
Just thinking more on the depictions of Blackbeard, and the appearance of usually six pistols worn in some sort of bandolier(s) somewhat consistently. It would seem that these pistols may represent 'Queen Anne's ' by the butt shape and plates. In my previous post I wondered if perhaps the pistol of the OP may be of the period including Blackbeard (d. 1718) or if perhaps artistic license is at hand.

The beginning source for 'Blackbeard' would best be construed as by the mysterious Capt. Charles Johnson's "General History of the Pyrates" (1724).
Apparently he took accounts from various persons, including Israel Hands, the mate in Blackbeards crew.
According to an account by Henry Bostock (Capt. of the ship 'Margaret' captured by Blackbeard) given Dec. 19, 1717:
"...he was dressed in a long sea captain coat, crossed by two belts-a sword belt and a bandlolier-while three brace of pistols hung from improvised holsters over his chest. He wore a small brown fur cap* with two small lengths of match poked out behind each ear"

*this was probably what was known as a 'thrummed cap', worn by sailors in cold weather...but as he was in Caribbean, odd. In first version of Johnson's book the cap is shown, but later changed to a tricorn hat.

The tricorn hat seems more in line with the fashions of c.1720s, and I am thinking perhaps that the following illustrations of Blackbeard, following the style context with the hat. might follow the pistols as well.

It is known that other pirates wore pistols in similar fashion, but it seems they often used ribbon tied around the handles as with the case of 'Black Sam Bellamy' (note the 'Black' appellation, cf. 'Blackbeard') . He and Blackbeard were both in the crew of Benjamin Hornigold c. 1716.
In Feb. 1717 he became captain of the captured English slaver "Whydah".
In an account on Bellamy, it was said he always wore black coats (hence 'Black' Sam) and had four 'dueling pistols' in his sash.

The Whydah wrecked in April 1717 off Cape Cod, and in 2004 wreck was found. One of the relics was a 'Sun King' (Sonnenkönig Louis XIV) pistol, which still had silk ribbon tied around it, as it was known some pirates did, and draped them around their necks. It would seem unlikely that four full size pistols (of the probable French cavalry size c. 1710 =sun king?) would carry well in his sash, so perhaps two on a ribbon?

[Jim McDougall]

Udo, this is an absolutely fantastic and wonderful entry, and thank you so much for putting all this together and the great illustrations.

You bring up an intriguing subject! these braces of "Queen Anne pistols" which have become virtually cliche' for the Blackbeard persona.
It makes sense that in these times, long before the famed 'six shooter', and single shot pistols, one would need multiples in case of misfire or needing more shots.

You bring up a good point, how did Blackbeard acquire not one, but six (a brace is a matching pair) of these seemingly select pistols?

It would appear that these 'Queen Anne' pistols with turn off barrels (had to be screwed off to reload) were intended as smaller pocket type pistols for the use of gentlemen as self defense. If I understand correctly they began in England about 1680s-90s with Huguenot makers and Andrew Dolop, a Dutch maker in England around 1695.

While the style was apparently known in England in this time, these seem to have been in use for years later, but these early ones are what seems depicted in the woodcuts in Johnson (1724).

Blackbeard is usually who I think of regarding these pistols, as you note, Black Sam Bellamy (the 'Whydah') was noted as wearing 4 dueling pistols in his sash. As you note, these were much larger pistols and hard to imagine 4 in a sash.....let alone on ribbons (as the one pistol found in that wreck had).

The book "General History of Pyrates" (Capt. Charles Johnson) is agreed to be by an unknown author, and with notable license, however it literally set the standard for the pirate persona ever since.

I noticed that Bartholomew Roberts, who became 'pirate' in 1719, the year after Blackbeards death, was noted in Johnson(1724, p.212) as having "...a sword in hand, and two pair of pistols slung over his shoulders".

It seems an interesting coincidence that both Blackbeard and Bellamy, both in the service of Hornigold, followed the practice of multiple pistols, in braces in either bandolier or ribbons.

Yet Roberts, after them, adopted the idea, it would seem independently.

So the question is:
Did pirates indeed wear braces of pistols as discussed ? was this a practice more widely known in these times? or was this exclusive to the pirate images of 'Capt. Johnson'?
Was Johnson (?) inspired by the 'Queen Anne' pistols which were likely known among gentlemen of his time in England and chose these smaller pistols as good candidates for braces of guns as illustrated in his book?

Obviously a number of the larger 'sun king' type guns would look ridiculous in a bandolier or strung on ribbons, rather like a bandolier of howitzer shells.


Great food for thought!!! Thank you again Udo!

[M ELEY]

I think the description of the bandoliers makes sense for several reasons. Obviously, the guy with the most armament stands a better chance of winning. One-shot flintlocks in a battle had limited effect unless you had more. Secondly, remember that these folks loved to intimidate simply by their looks. Blackbeard purportedly set fuses in his beard and under his hat on fire to appear like the devil himself! They exaggerated their appearance, so a multi-brace of pistols did just that. As far as the Queen Anne types being of smaller caliber, you didn't necessarily need a huge .70 cal hand cannon! These folks were fighting in close proximity on the deck of a ship. Their swords, far from being huge rapiers or broadswords, were shorter hangers. The Queen Anne types were lighter for carrying in bundles and had just as lethal effect at close range!

[Jim McDougall]

VERY good points Capn, the notion of psychological impact was clearly used by pirates, much as in many combative or adversarial situations. As Confucius said (loosely translated) 'the idea is not to beat the opponent into submission, but to make him not wish to fight".

Blackbeard was probably the most notably recorded for this practice, especially the decoration of his beard, said to be with lit fuses (possibly to deter mosquitos ?) but more likely red ties or to that effect. However the braces of pistols on display would be formidable in appearance as well. The idea is, any guy with this much firepower means business!

Well noted on the close quarters combat, no need to large guns, caliber, or swords of length. Which brings the subject of the swords depicted in these woodcuts from Johnson's book......these appear be 'hangers' of various sorts, some which fall into the nebulous category of the 'scimitar'. The oddly clipped blades seem to defy comparison in most blade forms we are familiar with, aside from some ethnographic forms such as the kampilan, mandau and some Chinese types.

So then, might these 'cutlasses' depicted in these images also be somewhat 'sensationalized'?

[Jim McDougall]

VERY good points Capn, the notion of psychological impact was clearly used by pirates, much as in many combative or adversarial situations. As Confucius said (loosely translated) 'the idea is not to beat the opponent into submission, but to make him not wish to fight".

Blackbeard was probably the most notably recorded for this practice, especially the decoration of his beard, said to be with lit fuses (possibly to deter mosquitos ?) but more likely red ties or to that effect. However the braces of pistols on display would be formidable in appearance as well. The idea is, any guy with this much firepower means business!

Well noted on the close quarters combat, no need to large guns, caliber, or swords of length. Which brings the subject of the swords depicted in these woodcuts from Johnson's book......these appear be 'hangers' of various sorts, some which fall into the nebulous category of the 'scimitar'. The oddly clipped blades seem to defy comparison in most blade forms we are familiar with, aside from some ethnographic forms such as the kampilan, mandau and some Chinese types.

So then, might these 'cutlasses' depicted in these images also be somewhat 'sensationalized'?

[Ed]

This always struck me as having seafaring roots. The guard is hammered steel and the grip is bone(?). Blade is marked as the picture shows but has that north african vibe.

Came with a wooden scabbard too. I bit long for hand to hand on a ship's deck I think.

[Rick]

We seem to have overlooked the Iranun peoples somehow.

https://the-iranun.blogspot.com/2011/03/brief-history-of-iranun.html

[Ian]

Thank you Rick for bringing us back to the ethnographic aspects of this topic. We have traveled far and wide, including westerners. Many of the Ilanun (Iranum) were a plundering group. I posted last year some drawings from the 1840s in the following thread showing some of these pirates: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=292317&postcount=498


Some of the weapons, including lantaka, are illustrated.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Rick for bringing us back to the ethnographic aspects of this topic. We have traveled far and wide, including westerners. Many of the Ilanun (Iranum) were a plundering group. I posted last year some drawings from the 1840s in the following thread showing some of these pirates: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=292317&postcount=498


Some of the weapons, including lantaka, are illustrated.

Thank you Ian, and Rick. In the pirate spectrum, there are many factions and theaters of operation for this maritime phenomenon, and these more exotic areas definitely bring in the ethnographic factor.

In the thread just posted by Pirate Lady, on Zheng Yi Sao, the woman who took over the huge Chinese pirate confederation that had been run by her late husband (over 400 junks and up to 60,000 pirates!), who operated in the South China sea in early 19th c.

It seems to me that the European pirates operating in from the Atlantic from Madagascar to the Red Sea, and Indian Ocean may well have ventured as far as the South China Sea in some cases. There are unproven accounts of Captain Kidd reaching an island off the coast of Viet Nam (said to be near the China Sea/South China Sea).
I am wondering if perhaps some of the native weapons in use in these areas of piracy in the many asian archipelagos might have diffused into pirate armories via capture of European vessels frequenting or trading in those areas. Though doubtful there was direct contact between our European pirates and the Eastern versions, the diffusion of weapons through networking it would seem.

I was thinking that the unusual 'scimitars' with notably clipped points etc. seen in the woodcuts of pirate notables in 'Johnson' (1724) might have been influenced by these exotic sword types of Asia, Indonesia, Philippines etc.

[Rick]

I believe I have an Iranun Kampilan,or so Xasterix tells me. It seems that it would be pretty cumbersome for boarding another vessel but it cerainly would be a fearsome weapon once one was ashore raiding.

I only have 2 examples of these swords, and I believe he was referring to this one that went to Macao for the H.O.S. exhibition.

Pardon the poor photo quality. :o

[Jim McDougall]

I believe I have an Iranun Kampilan,or so Xasterix tells me. It seems that it would be pretty cumbersome for boarding another vessel but it cerainly would be a fearsome weapon once one was ashore raiding.

Thats pretty cool Rick! I dont know a great deal on the weapons of these regions, and the kampilan seems to have been used by various tribal groups including sea dyaks (?) and of course Moro.
As you note, these full size swords would have been awkward in melees on deck, but deadly in encounters ashore.

I recall always wondering why full length bladed swords were so often associated with pirates such as the 'Barbary pirates' and the so called nimchas. What I found later was that shore raids and combat were far more prevalent than boarding vessels with these ethnographic pirate groups.

With the 'black flag' pirates of the 'Golden Age', there was seldom boarding and combat as in most cases merchant vessels surrendered without such action.

Question, on these kampilan, how does one distinguish one kampilan used by one group from another?
Whatever the case, I agree, these would be extremely deadly swords!

[Ian]

Jim,

The Ilanun (Iranum) kampilan that Rick shows has an unusual tip for kampilan in that it has no spike or file work, and the length of the edge from tip to the spine is a little longer. I have associated that arrangement as a distinguishing feature between Borneo (Iranum, "Sea Dayak") and Moro kampilan. Perhaps Xasterix can add further distinctions.

Attached is an enlargement from one of the drawings I linked to in the comment above. This unhappy local in the Brunei Datu/Sultan's retinue has a sword with a similarly shaped tip. This sword seems to have a slightly curved blade (such kampilan are very uncommon) and a mandau style hilt. This may not be a kampilan but a sword more akin to a Dayak parang.

Regards,

Ian.
.

[Jim McDougall]

Rick and Ian, thank you so much guys!
That example you show Rick, is amazing, and I remember you posting it years ago. What I noticed is the unusual squiggle (?) type guard. The wrap on the grip seems to resemble that on my example (attached).

My example acquired about 40 years ago, has a cloth tied to the hilt. I have heard the tales offered to explain its purpose, but as always take these mostly as collectors lore in 'western' parlance having little to do with the actual purpose or perhaps 'meaning'.

Ian, thank you for the detailed notes on this. It is fascinating to learn more on these, which in my admitted lack of knowledge in this area has simply relegated the kampilan to the Moro's without really considering other tribal use in the larger sphere.
The notion of a curved blade on one of these, even to my uninitiated perspective , seems very unusual, and my thought would be probable European influence or even one of their blades. As always, maybe just the artists license.

I added the other sword I have from this sphere, a mandau, again from about 40 years ago, which I have never regarded as particularly old, but carried out in traditional manner and decoration.

What was the significance of that unusual element on the back of the blade near the hilt?

[Maurice]

Hello,

Are these kampilan blades concave/convex?

PS, I added a photo from early times in Minahasa.
Several kampilan can be found in this photo, and the people carrying them are no Lanuns, Moros or Dajaks, but people from North Celebes.

Regards,
Maurice

[Maurice]

What was the significance of that unusual element on the back of the blade near the hilt?

Hello Jim,

Which element are you exactly referring to?
Do you mean the motif engraved at the shoulder (ricasso) of the mandau blade, above the protrusion?

Regards,
Maurice

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Jim,

Which element are you exactly referring to?
Do you mean the motif engraved at the shoulder (ricasso) of the mandau blade, above the protrusion?

Regards,
Maurice

Thank you Maurice,
The extension on the back of the blade (on the mandau) that looks like it is to wrap cord around or whatever (I cant think of the right descriptive term).

It is great to look into these weapons which bring in the ethnographic element in the study of piracy, which indeed cover the figurative 'seven seas'!

[David]

My example acquired about 40 years ago, has a cloth tied to the hilt. I have heard the tales offered to explain its purpose, but as always take these mostly as collectors lore in 'western' parlance having little to do with the actual purpose or perhaps 'meaning'.

I have always assumed these cloths were meant to bind the sword to the wrist of the wielder so that they cannot lose hold of it in the heat of battle.

[Maurice]

Thank you Maurice,
The extension on the back of the blade (on the mandau) that looks like it is to wrap cord around or whatever (I cant think of the right descriptive term).

It is great to look into these weapons which bring in the ethnographic element in the study of piracy, which indeed cover the figurative 'seven seas'!

Hello Jim,

Sometimes you find here lot of curls and protrusions,
which are supposed to represent genitals.
I can't recall I have seen that 'motif' before like on yours (as far as I can judge from the fuzzy photo, as I can't see it clearly).

Kind regards,
Maurice

[Jim McDougall]

I have always assumed these cloths were meant to bind the sword to the wrist of the wielder so that they cannot lose hold of it in the heat of battle.

Thank you David, that does make sense and I wondered as well if these wrapped would offer more secure grip if hilt slippery.I guess often with ethnographic forms pragmatic purposes are often overlooked by westerners seeking more esoteric notions. I think Christopher Spring mentioned that in "African Arms and Armor" noting attempts at trying to explain the wild shapes of blades on throwing knives.