Figural Dagger - Esmeralda?

[Bill M]

Recently acquired from Spiral this dagger was posted here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3897&page=2&pp=30&highlight=satanic

Though the thread wandered, I think some excellent comments about Esmeralda and the Hunchback of Notre Dame were made.

I do not consider this to be a "satanic" piece. It does, however, have great presence and I am very grateful to Jonathon for offering it to me.

I would appreciate your comments. One thing I am curious about is the angle of the woman's head, I find this mildly disturbing.

[Bill M]

More detailed pictures

[katana]

Hi Bill,
this dagger was also discussed on Bernard Levine's forum and I posted a link to illustrations from 'Hunchback' which conclusively ID'ed this as Esmeralda. I feel that originally this dagger was themed on the story. However, later owners may indeed have believed it was satanic (as the story's fame subsided) and could have even been used as such :shrug:

The picture (dated 1877) clearly shows various details, the necklace, the goat (Djali), the tambourine etc

The second picture shows Notre Dame with a spire, which may explain the scabbard. This is dated 1911 but I believe at that time the spire was no longer there.

Regards David

[Bill M]

Hi Bill,
this dagger was also discussed on Bernard Levine's forum and I posted a link to illustrations from 'Hunchback' which conclusively ID'ed this as Esmeralda. I feel that originally this dagger was themed on the story. However, later owners may indeed have believed it was satanic (as the story's fame subsided) and could have even been used as such :shrug:

The picture (dated 1877) clearly shows various details, the necklace, the goat (Djali), the tambourine etc

The second picture shows Notre Dame with a spire, which may explain the scabbard. This is dated 1911 but I believe at that time the spire was no longer there.

Regards David

Hi David,

Found the link on Bernard's forum
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2963629

I do think that you have a very good point about Esmeralda. I will try to research her and see what I might find in connection with this dagger. possibly she goes back further than mid 1800s.

Do you think the spire on Notre Dame could be the one on the scabbard? Would like to find some more clear images of it.

Thanks for the reply. Your remarks in the earlier thread were very good IMHO.

Bill

[spiral]

Yes its a lovely piece Bill, It was a pleasure to own.

I agree Katanas pics of Esmereldas necklace eventualy clinched it for me. ;)

I was probably just bieng a stubbern mule for the point of debate having dug myself such a hole! :D

I Still find it interesting the its the only upside down scabbard Ive seen on these cast bronze knives. {yes Ive heard the arguments! :p But factualy its still the only one seen so far.} And so its still an upside down church though! :eek: :D

From the images I found of the spire at the time, this scabard roof seemed to be tiled in a very different manner, But perhaps someone can find other images.}



The spire is still there it looks like?

http://www.runet.edu/~mbrady/NotreDamn0004.jpg

Dont know if its been rebuilt?

Spiral

[katana]

Hi David,

Your remarks in the earlier thread were very good IMHO.

Bill

Thanks Bill :)


I Still find it interesting the its the only upside down scabbard Ive seen on these cast bronze knives. {yes Ive heard the arguments! :p But factualy its still the only one seen so far.} And so its still an upside down church though! :eek: :D
Spiral

Hi Jonathon, :)
as you know I could not find an 'upside down' scabbard. There is the possibility that this signifies 'Satanism but, I believe it is more likely symbolic to the 'interpretation' of Hugo's story. ( all the examples of Satanic daggers I have seen do not have an 'inverted' decorated scabbard either)
'The hunchback of Notre Dame' , at first seems to be about 'unrequited love' but the story is deeper than that. Many literary critics see this story as an attack on the church (not Christianity or Religion), members of the church (in his eyes) had become corrupt, greedy and lacked compassion for their congregation. He saw that the values of Christianity that were preached were not adhered to by the clergy. (a case of 'talking the talk' but not 'walking the walk')

Esmeralda was not Christian and was considered a heathen. Yet, her character and actions are more Christian than the clergy characters. The inverted 'Notre Dame' scabbard is in 'opposition' to Esmeralda (she is symbolic of good ...the 'church' ....bad) Had the scabbard had Christ or other religious icon.... I think it would be a different story.

However, as a footnote, assuming this dagger is mid 19 th C, it coincides with the popularity of the story....and would probably be widely accepted as 'non satanic' . As time went on and memory fades ...I could see this dagger being adopted as 'satanic'.

Either way its a very good piece.

Kind Regards David

I've just noticed (in one of Bill's photos) that the roof tiles on the spire are right way up...when the spire is upside down :shrug:

[Bill M]

I am still intrigued by how her head is dramatically inclined to her left. This was obviously done when it was cast and not later damage. Any ideas about this symbolism?

Perhaps sinister? (as opposed to dexter)

[Tim Simmons]

I think it is just that way because of rather clumsy modeling just look at the hands, arms and so on.

[Henk]

Bill,

I think the inclining of the head is modelled with purpose. Maybe like Tim said a bit clumsy.
It is in my opinion typically a possure of a woman giving affection to the dog. Women can look with tenderness to a little child or dog in this way. But I can imagine if you turn your head like this you need treatment to get your muscles in place again.

[katana]

Hi Bill,
her head is indeed inclined to the sinister 'side' ..... i.e. the left.(the original meaning of the word from the Latin "sinistra" meaning 'left' hand side) It could be concluded that it is symbolic that Esmeralda 'leans towards evil'. However the goat (demonised by the early church ) is on the right side (dexter) ...the 'good' side.

Typically in Art, a subjects stance or positioning could be slightly exaggerated to convey the Artist's 'meaning' to his/hers completed piece.
The leaning of the head to one side, exposes this vulnerable area to attack (a shallow cut could easily sever the carotid artery with fatal results) If the 'subject' is in this position ....it generally signifies two things ..vulnerability or that the 'subject' is totally at ease (trusting, loving, friendly) with the 'situation' shown in the piece. As Esmeralda is looking directly at her pet goat whilst in this position I believe it shows her vulnerability(as per the story) and her 'love' for her loyal companion... the goat.

Although I suspect some will say it is an expression of her 'love' and 'devotion' for Satan, personified by the goat :shrug: Had there not been a story that inspired the hilt of your dagger ...the last suggestion could indeed be more likely.

Regards David

PS I mentioned before that the tiles/shingles on the scabbard are opposite way up in relation to the 'spire' , inverted candle sticks etc. I think that this is strange. Why would everything else be upside down...except the tiles....could it be deliberate and significant :shrug:

[Bill M]

David (Katana),

I think that the modeling is intentional. In symbolic and heraldic study where and how objects are displayed is significant. Whether a figure looks to his right or left is intentional and has meaning.

The position of the head is unnatural, uncomfortable and disturbing to view.

I hope that David (Nescesh) will again reply as he knows quite a bit about these subjects. But let me add a few things.

The goat in WICCA is a significant fertility symbol. Baphomet as well as Pan is a goat-foot god. That Baphomet ("Old Horny) looks satanic has more to do with a Christian interpretation than it has to do with WICCA. which does not intentionally use Christian symbols.

The goat probably has to do with pagan fertility as Esmeralda was know as a pagan, Gypsy seductress. She also danced and played the tambourine.

If we can attribute this dagger to "The Hunchback...." it could have more to do with Hugo's commentary on the Church, which was certainly an underlying commentary in his work.

I need to do some more study on this and invite input.

Baphomet (This is an image used by Eliphas Levi who was more involved in Ceremonial Magik) the WICCAN symbol is similar, but I can't find a traditional Wiccan version right now. Suffice to say Baphomet was not intended to be a Satanic Christian-derived symbol, but a Pagan fertility god)

Note position of hands and moons.

[Tim Simmons]

Remarkably similar to Hindu black and white, Shiva/Kali concepts. I do have to question what Victor Hugo has to do with modern Wicca. I have read that it stems for rather too rich and discontented late Victorian thrill seekers. I can not remember all the story but Esmeralda was the good person refusing the cardinals advances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Athame_and_Boline.JPG
The story
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esmeralda_(The_Hunchback_of_Notre_Dame)

I must find and the painting "Scape goat" to add to this goat symbolism.

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/online/pre-Raphaelites/scapegoat.asp

Esmeralda like the scape goat is a vehicle for the sins of rather naughty men, especially those hidden behind cloth. :eek:

[Jim McDougall]

I recall this intriguing dagger from the last thread, and its as if this, the sequel gets better and better! I have always been fascinated by art, and the study of the many hidden meanings often discovered long after the esoteric purposes of the artists had been lost. While of course, the intended perspectives can only be speculated, it seems that as more evidence is discovered and plausibilty presented, the possibilities become compelling.

This is exactly the type of investigation and thinking we have been hoping to expand with the thread on early makers markings. That is to discover not only any consistancies in the markings and inscriptions used on the trade blades that often found thier way into the hilts of many cultures, but the intricate meanings and symbolism found in them.

As this dagger clearly shows, there was indeed pronounced symbolism that involved deeply religious sentiments and often conflicts involving the church. In the case of the symbolism on markings and inscriptions on blades, the emphasis intended is of course typically apotropaic and reflecting faith and strength, and the depth of the meanings imbued in these are often very deep if not even much more so than displayed in this dagger. Just as in the theme of the dagger, often the motif used on blades carried considerable allegory, as clearly seen in the talismanic blades of l7th through 19th century.

I apologize for the deviation in bringing up the other thread, but could not resist mentioning it in hopes that some of you might bring the clearly advanced investigative skills you have shown in this topic to the theme of the thread on blade markings :)

With that, I completely agree that this is a fascinating dagger, and though it would be difficult to consider as satanic, I think it is interesting to consider the allegory that seems present. I recall thinking in the original thread that the scabbard must have been intended to view with point upward, but as David has astutely observed, the tiles position disagrees. This brings us back to the objective of the 'upside down church'.

It seems that it is often suggested that the upside down cross is supposed to represent satanic symbolism, and that might be in some cases, but in actuality the inverted cross represents St.Peter. It seems that he felt himself unworthy of crucifixion in the same manner as Christ, so insisted on being upside down, as told in symbolic lore.

Obviously there is always more than one side to any story, and so it goes with investigating symbolism in art, weapons, material culture, literature!
But you guys have been doing fantastic at analysis of this dagger, and hope you keep it going! Its really like a great book ! I think Hugo would be impressed!! :) Thanks very much everybody.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

If we sentance Esmeralder to death we are cleaned of our sins. How many times have you nearly crashed the car because you given in to SIN?

[kronckew]

wasn't esmerelda broken on the wheel and hung, her head would then be in such a position i'd guess?

[Bill M]

Remarkably similar to Hindu black and white, Shiva/Kali concepts. I do have to question what Victor Hugo has to do with modern Wicca. I have read that it stems for rather too rich and discontented late Victorian thrill seekers. I can not remember all the story but Esmeralda was the good person refusing the cardinals advances.


I did not intend to draw references between Hugo and Wicca, I was only referring to the probability that the goat was a fertility symbol and that this symbol has little to do with satanism and is more a pagan concept.

I need to re-read the book, but the little I remember is that Hugo was trying to say that Esmeralda, though a pagan was essentially a better person than the Christian clergy. I may have this mixed up.

This is a very well-made dagger, sheath and hilt. The likelihood was that the maker was really trying to say something. I think that Katana really pointed us in the right direction with his ideas on Esmeralda and probably the Hunchback, but Esmeralda may be older than this. Curious as to where her original symbolism came from.

[katana]

Hi Bill,
done a little more research, and think I may have some answers.

Esmeralda, was kidnapped from her home whilst a young girl. Her original name (in Hugo's book) is Agnes and was changed by the Gypsies to Esmeralda, (a Spanish name for emerald). In fact the purse (green silk) around her neck contains a green piece of glass to remind her of her name (emerald-Esmeralda). Now it gets a bit more interesting, Agnes, her given name, is the name of a virgin martyr Saint. She is the patron saint of chastity, gardeners, girls, engaged couples, rape victims and virgins.

"......According to her legend, Saint Agnes was a member of the Roman nobility born c. 291 and raised in a Christian family. She suffered martyrdom at the age of thirteen during the reign of the Eastern Roman Emperor Diocletian, on January 21, 304.

The prefect Sempronius wished Agnes to marry his son, and on Agnes' refusal he condemned her to death. Roman law did not permit the execution of virgins, Sempronius had a naked Agnes dragged through the streets to a brothel. As she prayed, her hair grew and covered her body. It was also said that all of the men who attempted to rape her were immediately struck blind. When led out to die she was tied to a stake, but the bundle of wood would not burn, whereupon the officer in charge of the troops drew his sword and struck off her head, or, in some other texts, stabbed her in the throat.

A few days after Agnes' death, a girl named Emerentiana was found praying by her tomb; she claimed to be the daughter of Agnes' wet nurse, and was stoned to death after refusing to leave the place and reprimanding the pagans for killing her foster sister. Emerentiana was also later canonized...."

Agnes is represented in art as a blonde young girl in robes, holding a palm branch in her hand and a lamb ( Esmeralda a goat) at her feet or in her arms.



It would seem that Esmeralda Character is based on St Agnes.

Interestingly both Agnes and Esmeralda died by trauma to the neck ...... I think that is why the neck position is so exaggerated.

Kind Regards
David

[David]

I think the neck position was merely the artist's attempt to depict the character (Esmeralda) looking lovingly at the goat. This is a nice dagger, but Michelangelo this artist ain't. :D
We could spend a great deal of time discussing Hugo's work Notre-Dame de Paris and exactly what his intention were in his development of the character of Esmeralda, but this is not a literary forum and i would be willing to bet that the artist who created this knife did it as a direct rendition of the character from the book, not Hugo's deeper modivations or influences such as the story of St. Agnes (as interesting as that story might be).
Bottom line Bill is that IMHO, sometimes a goat is just a goat and a strange neck bend just that as well. Even though you are dismissing the early, rather rediculous idea that this was some kind of "satanic" dagger you still seem to be looking for the occult in this blade. I don't think you will every find it in any convincing manner. Personally i think this blade is just what it appears to be, a nicely crafted commemorative depicting a scene from Victor Hugo's Hunchback novel, which was, indeed, about much more than a love affair between a beauty and a grotesque.
Hugo's original title Notre-Dame de Paris is so named because he felt that the cathedral itself was the main character of the book. The fact that it is upside-down on the sheath, if one chooses to orient it that way (maybe it's Esmeralda and the goat that are upside-down ;) ) i believe is merely because the shape of a cathedral comes to a natural point like the dagger.
This link was probably posted in the original thread but here goes anyway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunchback_of_Notre_Dame

[spiral]

David heres another dagger you might find interesting?

http://www.baltimoreknife.com/images/satanicdagger/satanticdagger1a.JPG

From this thread, many more photos...


linky (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=506198&highlight=satanic)

http://www.baltimoreknife.com/images/satanicdagger/satanticdagger2a.JPG


Intresting & revealing to see the emotians this peace still raises for some... & where they are with it.

Interesting discusian chaps!


Spiral

[David]

David heres another dagger you might find interesting?
Intresting & revealing to see the emotians this peace still raises for some... & where they are with it.
Interesting discusian chaps!
I do indeed find it interesting Spiral. Is a a "Satanic Dagger" once used in black rituals? Who knows? It is interesting though that another dagger with an identical hilt also turned up on the BladesForum thread so it seems this one had at least a limited run once. That might tell you something about it. :shrug:
I wonder if Rodin's Gates of Hell are considered "Satanic Gates" by the same people who label these "Satanic Daggers"?
Spiral, i must say i am intrigued. Exactly what emotions do you think you see rising in these posts that are so revealing to you. Maybe you are looking at mirrors. I would love to learn your trick for reading between the lines. ;) :D

[spiral]

I do indeed find it interesting Spiral. Is a a "Satanic Dagger" once used in black rituals? Who knows? It is interesting though that another dagger with an identical hilt also turned up on the BladesForum thread so it seems this one had at least a limited run once. That might tell you something about it. :shrug:
I wonder if Rodin's Gates of Hell are considered "Satanic Gates" by the same people who label these "Satanic Daggers"?
Spiral, i must say i am intrigued. Exactly what emotions do you think you see rising in these posts that are so revealing to you. Maybe you are looking at mirrors. I would love to learn your trick for reading between the lines. ;) :D

I have no idea David about that dagger either, same as you. ;)

When I originaly posted the esmerelda dagger my assumptions were based on a few examples I had seen in various threads. {Which the more examples one reads the more one spots errors generaly.} Luckily I still learn more about many things evry week & try not to hold on to unprooven knoweledge for to long.

I explained earlier in this thread where I am with this know.

Glad you found the linked knife interesting. Its looks "satanic" so I personaly would accept it bieng called that but so does much old art.

No mirrors or emotians in this one for me anymore David.

Just thought I could see some new bright angles mentioned & discused by some & some other comments that would have fitted better in the first thread, rather than this one ;)

But its all eye of the beholder, I guess. Perheps I was mistaken. Only the writer of each post in this thread will know what this knife & its past threads hold for them.

Personaly I thought the neck of Esmerelda was made at that angle so it made her neck & shuolder a more comfterable place to lay ones thumb.

But that was just my reaction to it. Artistic licence, deeper meaning, all of the above? who knows? Intresting though.

Its a nice dagger I think.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

This sold for a good bit over £100 in spite of the seller calling it a paper knife. This surely establishes these as theme daggers much like the fantasy work of today.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/e5ac_1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/323d_1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/e706_1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/1ad6_1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/3393_1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/rayma.jpg
Could make a nice toy to play with, if you like that sort of thing :confused:

[spiral]

Nice peace Tim, quite common though..

Thats one of the famous ones made by G Wostenholm in Sheffield, one of a serious of 6 i recall? {as I said earlier, my learning has moved on.} ;)

You didnt buy it? I am speachless. Each to thier own I guess. :shrug:

Heres another one....

http://www.ken-drake.com/images/Indian_Hilt_Dagger.jpg

http://www.ken-drake.com/images/Indian_Hilt_Dagger_open.jpg

From.

linky (http://www.ken-drake.com/indian_hilt_dagger.htm)

Have a look at the price Tim. ;) With a proper discription the seller would have done well.

But surely to my mind a dagger with a satanic theme should be called a "satanic" dagger with a Mohican theme should be called "Mohican"?

One with flowers all over it would be called "floral"?

No one in this thread has refered to them as a ritual knives, that thread was last year... :rolleyes:


Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

Having at least one in the house might be rather fun.

[katana]

Hi,
I agree that sometimes 'things are what they are' and that others can create meaning to an object that has none. However, I do not assume this to be so for any object, I try to keep an 'opened mind'...'collect' possible facts first and then take an educated 'guess' from that info. The possible symbolism, could be relavent, this may indeed be a themed dagger in conception.....but later owners may have drawn their own conclusions and could have been used as a so called 'satanic dagger' ... :shrug:

But there are 'anomalies' with this dagger's hilt and scabbard which could be just 'mistakes' or omissions....or could have some meaning.

I agree, (as I said before) that Esmeralda is looking 'lovingly' at her pet goat. Her stance, the goats positioning etc supports this.Yet her eyes are 'lifeless' or closed, the goat on the other hand has detail to its eyes :shrug:
You could argue that the classical statues of Greece also have this 'look', but originally the eyes were painted and due to time the paint has eroded.

Sorry to 'labour' this point but....I cannot understand why the craftsman whom produced the scabbard put the tiles 'right way up' to the viewer but 'upside' down to the orientation of the spire :shrug: A very strange mistake......if indeed this was a mistake.

Spiral, have you found any info on the blade?

Regards David

[spiral]

I agree Katana figural daggers may have been made for varied purposes or used as such later in thier life. Same as many knives.

Some clearly have Satanic themes, others may or may not & some clearly dont. I have seen no evidence of these bieng ritual knives but dont say its impossible.

Many organsations , groups & indivduals, like particular knives for particular purposes after all.

The blade style is typical of French figural knives of the period, some of which have "satanic" themes & some of which dont. It does appear to have been cut out of an older blade though. This is also common of those with Satanic themes that often used blades from Napoleans Mamuluke daggers from about 1805? I seem to recall? Whether its common in French figural knives without "satanic" themes I dont know. But I rather suspect many of these were made by the same workshops of sculpters & old blades were available & perhaps saved employing a cutler with a forge? They were just, cut ground, drilled etc.

But that is just my conjecture.

Indeed Tim, I did enjoy that one while it was in my company. ;)

Intrestingly I noticed "non knife" people particularily women found it fascinating. But then I guess most of them were artists.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

You can keep the knife I will stick with the fantasy :D :D :D :o

[spiral]

Reality is more fun though Tim. ;) :D

spiral

[Tim Simmons]

Do not try and kid me you have one at home.

[spiral]

I wasnt Tim, ;) Not for the last 3 years, I do still luckily have those who visit though.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

You are a lucky B I'll tell your wife if you have one. Perhaps she knows :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[spiral]

No Tim, that fell apart 3 years ago sadley. Study Yoga my friend, it introduces you to some good people you would like to spend time with along the way. ;)

Spiral

[David]

ummm...are we still talking about knives here... :D

[Tim Simmons]

Yes honest ;) just ending on a light note I hope.

[spiral]

Of course we are David! {within the general global gestalt dare I say "theme" of things }

I presume katana will pull it back on course as I answeared his questian as best I can to date , within my limited knowledge.

spiral

[Tim Simmons]

Has anybody here tried to model figures 4-5inches tall, with there eye open? The eyes are not shut, it is easier to carve a heavy eye lid on small faces and then carve a line into it. Done well it works.

[spiral]

Here eyes are clearly open when "in hand." rather souless though.


Spiral

[Bill M]

Of course we are David! {within the general global gestalt dare I say "theme" of things }

I presume katana will pull it back on course as I answered his question as best I can to date , within my limited knowledge.

spiral

I also appreciate Katana's comments as being the lucid and focused information I am seeking. I believe it was he who first pointed out the idea of this being themed on Hugo's "Hunchback of Notre Dame."

I hope that we can avoid acrimony and comments intended to be playfully sarcastic that got the previous thread about this dagger, closed.

I still don't believe it was designed as a satanic piece. Possibly pagan, but most likely a themed dagger as has been mentioned before. BUT it does have some symbolism, whether the creator intended it or was just copying ideas.

It also does have a certain presence that perhaps only Spiral and I can know, among us, since we have held it.

Certainly I would like to find deeper meaning in this piece, whatever its genesis. Whether it is a communication regarding the "K&C of the H.G.A." or we should ask Ozzy Osbourne for deeper meaning, I don't know. <very large grin intended here>

But I would appreciate more comments as to what historical, symbolical or literary ideas might be represented here. And if there are literary forums I might pursue regarding this, please let me know by PM or post here.

Two of the major questions I have regard first the angle of the neck.

It does seem to be broken. I have personally, though it may look a little strange, tried to mimic postures repeated in symbolic artifacts, like African figures, to try to gain a better understanding of what the creator (Small "c") intended. Holding your neck at this angle IS quite uncomfortable, so I am inclined to go with the idea of a broken neck, rather than 'affectionately looking at her goat.'

I like the idea of Esmeralda being modeled on "Agnes, the Lamb of God."

Second thing that I find quite curious is the orientation of the roofing tiles. This could indicate the scabbard was intended to be viewed point down. Possibly this is an error by the person who made it, perhaps intentional. Interesting slant.

I am very appreciative of all the comments here, but mostly those by Katana David. Please keep them coming.

[Jim McDougall]

I also appreciate Katana's comments as being the lucid and focused information I am seeking. I believe it was he who first pointed out the idea of this being themed on Hugo's "Hunchback of Notre Dame."

I hope that we can avoid acrimony and comments intended to be playfully sarcastic that got the previous thread about this dagger, closed.

I still don't believe it was designed as a satanic piece. Possibly pagan, but most likely a themed dagger as has been mentioned before. BUT it does have some symbolism, whether the creator intended it or was just copying ideas.

It also does have a certain presence that perhaps only Spiral and I can know, among us, since we have held it.

Certainly I would like to find deeper meaning in this piece, whatever its genesis. Whether it is a communication regarding the "K&C of the H.G.A." or we should ask Ozzy Osbourne for deeper meaning, I don't know. <very large grin intended here>

But I would appreciate more comments as to what historical, symbolical or literary ideas might be represented here. And if there are literary forums I might pursue regarding this, please let me know by PM or post here.

Two of the major questions I have regard first the angle of the neck.

It does seem to be broken. I have personally, though it may look a little strange, tried to mimic postures repeated in symbolic artifacts, like African figures, to try to gain a better understanding of what the creator (Small "c") intended. Holding your neck at this angle IS quite uncomfortable, so I am inclined to go with the idea of a broken neck, rather than 'affectionately looking at her goat.'

I like the idea of Esmeralda being modeled on "Agnes, the Lamb of God."

Second thing that I find quite curious is the orientation of the roofing tiles. This could indicate the scabbard was intended to be viewed point down. Possibly this is an error by the person who made it, perhaps intentional. Interesting slant.

I am very appreciative of all the comments here, but mostly those by Katana David. Please keep them coming.



Very well said and eloquently written Bill!!! and I could not agree more.

[katana]

Hi Bill,
there are indeed similarities to the positioning of the neck after hanging.

As hanging was more common at the time of your dagger, I suspect, that the 'people of the day' may have, possibly, recognised this as such.


Regards David

[Andrew]

There is a definite similarity. :eek:

[Tim Simmons]

Certainly looks like a hanged neck. Well done David. That would be part of the story. It appears we have a collection of themed daggers-

Hunch back of Notre Dame
Dante's Inferno
Last of the Mohicans

satanic anyone :shrug:

[spiral]

Good one Katana, Perhaps that means its a depiction of the ghost of Esmerelda then?


I think you might need to look further afield than Dantes Inferno Tim, Before totaly dismissing a Satanic theme? unless owls & strangulation of skeletons feature in it?

As the Esmerelda knife shows, most things seem clearly represented even if despite Katana efforts a few pieces of the jigsaw are still missing.

http://www.baltimoreknife.com/images/satanicdagger/satanticdagger3a.JPG


http://www.baltimoreknife.com/images/satanicdagger/satanticdagger6a.JPG



Spiral

[Andrew]

Move along, please, chaps. Nothing to see here...

[Bill M]

I am hoping the moderators will allow this thread to continue, though it may be of less interest to some, I find it quite interesting. Perhaps ideas here will spark renewed interest in the symbols of weapons in other genres, like the "Maker's Marks" thread.

Katana. Excellent work on the position of Esmeralda's head.


Sparknotes on the Notre Dame Cathedral:

....... "the beautiful specimens of architecture that remain, especially the three porches with their pointed arches, leading up to a "vast symphony of stone."

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb114/Bill_Marsh/Lady%20Dagger/1s7Medium-1.jpg


Further study reflects earlier remarks that Notre Dame was a central character as the original French title was "Notre Dame de Paris."

TNT Educator notes: "Understanding the cathedral is fundamental to understanding Victor Hugo's The Hunchback of Notre Dame. (In fact, Hugo devoted an entire book to a description of the cathedral and its role as the center of medieval Paris.) The original French title of the novel, Notre Dame de Paris, reflected this centrality. The English translation chose to de-emphasize the role of the building by changing the title to The Hunchback of Notre Dame. The TNT move, The Hunchback, removes the cathedral from the title altogether. In all its various tellings, however, the cathedral is central not only to the story's setting but to its theme as well."

[Tim Simmons]

Acording to this I am bound for the second level of hell suffering torments similar to the Dante dagger. :cool:
http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv

[katana]

Hi Bill,
Assuming the orientation of the tiles is deliberate, there could be an explanation....but only based on conjecture.

Throughout the ages, man has viewed 'weather' as an act of God or the Gods. Ever since arable farming, the weather affected the crops....creating 'bumper' harvest .... or a state of famine and starvation. The weather litrally was a matter of 'life or death' and as man has no control of this, it was considered 'devine intervention. Even today, extreme weather damage is considered an 'act of God' in many Insurance policies.

The roof of a building has always been seen as a 'protective' symbol, a shelter from the 'elements'. The overlapping tiles allow 'water run off' however with the tiles upside down ....water would flow into the building ... in effect the tiles would be useless in their 'protection'.




"..........One of the great dramatic moments in Victor Hugo’s novel Notre-Dame de Paris comes when Quasimodo snatches the gypsy Esmeralda from the hands of her would-be executioners and escapes with her into the great church of Notre-Dame:
‘The people, fond of daring deeds, followed him with their eyes through the dark nave, regretting that he had so quickly withdrawn himself from their acclamations. Suddenly he was seen again at one end of the gallery of the kings of France. He ran along it like a frenzied person, lifting his prize in his arms and shouting, “Sanctuary!” The crowd again burst forth with applause. When he had crossed the gallery, he plunged again into the interior of the church. A minute later, he reappeared on the upper platform, still carrying the gypsy in his arms, still running madly along, still crying, “Sanctuary!” And the crowd applauded again. At last he made a third appearance atop the tower of the great bell. There he seemed to show proudly to the whole city her whom he had saved, and his thundering voice, that voice which was heard so rarely, and which he had never heard, repeated three times with frenzy, even to the clouds, “Sanctuary! Sanctuary! Sanctuary!”’(1)
This moment is equally striking in the best-known film adaptation of the story, The Hunchback of Notre Dame (1939) starring Charles Laughton.(2)


What was ‘sanctuary’ and why was it held inviolable? In ancient Egypt the temples of Osiris and Amon offered the right of sanctuary. In ancient Greece all temples enjoyed this privilege, and certain of them, like the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, were known throughout the Mediterranean as a haven for fugitives. In ancient Rome, sanctuary was often sought by runaway slaves.

Emperor Constantine I is said to have given Christian churches the right of sanctuary. Asylum was originally confined to the church itself, but later its limits were extended to include the precincts and occasionally a larger area marked by ‘sanctuary crosses’. In England in Norman times there were two kinds of sanctuary, one belonging to every church by prescription and the other by special royal charter. The latter was considered much safer. A fugitive convicted of a felony and taking sanctuary was afforded protection from 30 to 40 days, after which he had to leave the kingdom and take an oath not to return without the king’s permission.

During the Middle Ages, the period in which Notre-Dame de Paris is set, sanctuary served as a refuge for persons fleeing from violence or the penalties of the law. To injure a person in sanctuary or to remove him or her forcibly was considered sacrilegious. Violations were punishable by fines or excommunication. In some cases there was a stone seat within the church, called the ‘frith-stool’, which the seeker of sanctuary had to reach in order to establish a claim to protection. More commonly, there was a large ring or knocker on the church door, holding on to which gave the right of asylum....."



On that basis, it could mean that 'Notre Dame' was unable to protect Esmeralda when she sought sanctuary within its walls ........as the Court of Parliament later voted to strip her of her sanctuary and send her to the gallows , removing her by force (which would have been considered sacrilegious)
She escapes Notre Dame ......but is later captured and hung.


Another possibility is that the tiles are a 'device' to show that the 'church' on the scabbard ...should indeed be viewed as upside down :eek:

1. Which could be symbollic of Esmeralda in opposition to the seemily corrupt establishment of the church (clergy)

2. That the conception of the knife was 'anti church' / anti Catholism

3. Or , dare I say it.....possibly 'satanic'

I am sure there are a number of other possibillities or explainations, and I am assuming that the tile 'orientation' was deliberate.....but, equally it could have been a 'silly' mistake.

Regards David

[Tim Simmons]

There are 9 levels. Number 2 is for the Lustfull :o
http://web.eku.edu/flash/inferno/

[katana]

SORRY COULDN'T RESIST THIS :o ...a little light relief


"Chaz says ......these new washboard's are so much better ...than the ones my ancestor's had to use"

:D :D ;) :rolleyes:


Regards David

[Tim Simmons]

This is good.
http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/utopia/index2.html

[katana]

Now seriously...

What is the definition of a true Satanic Dagger ? AFAIK... I suppose the only true answer is a dagger that has been used in a satanic rite.
Although this is regarding Sikh weapons the analogy is the same....

As one Sikh I was speaking with described when asked how to properly identify a Sikh sword..."if the sword was used by a Sikh, then any sword is a Sikh sword"!
Jim


Has there ever been provenance with any examples of 'Satanic Dagger' to support its use and history ?

Many of the 'motifs' and designs on Satanic daggers are easily recognisable as symbolising 'death'. Isn't that what a dagger is for.....to stab and kill. Surely all functional edged weapons where designed to take life?

Couldn't a dagger decorated with skulls, skeletons, demons etc just mean.... with this knife I can take your life and send you, my enemy, to hell :shrug: Bearing in mind many old churches, graveyards and many works of Art also, carries the symbolism of skull, demons etc in their architecture, gravestones, statues and paintings (and are not satanic.)

Death, 'the great adventure' is a reminder of our mortality, the circle of life 'completed'. The life expecancy of our ancestors were much less than ours, death was expected around 'each corner', to cope....our ancestors faced 'death' head on, it seems that they, to diminish the fear, embraced 'death' as the 'ultimate truth' but had religion that could redeem them so, they could live in the 'after life' whether that be Valhalla or Heaven or the Elysian Fields.

"To die will be an awfully big adventure." Peter Pan (JM Barrie)

[Tim Simmons]

Like collections. Most probably these 19th century nic-nak letter opener daggers were made for a category of Victorian society that needed to show how literate and informed they thought they were rather than experiencing anything like the reality of a classics university education. Which reminds me of the Daily Mail Sunday supplement and the Franklin Mint. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Rick]

Like collections. Most probably these 19th century nic-nak letter opener daggers were made for a category of Victorian society that needed to show how literate and informed they thought they were rather than experiencing anything like the reality of a classics university education. Which reminds me of the Daily Mail Sunday supplement and the Franklin Mint. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Ding ding ding !
We have a Winner !! ;) :D

[spiral]

And I though it was the sound of one hand clapping! :rolleyes: :D

spiral

[Bill M]

Gee, I thought it was the sound of no hands clapping. ;) :D ;)

[Rick]

:eek: :eek: Gee, I thought it was the sound of no hands clapping. ;) :D ;)

I just want you to know that all those years I spent riding herd on this board have made me this way ... :p :D

[Tim Simmons]

I post this series of pictures to show the eye technique on small faces and to show that I do not BS when talking about carving. I finished this today not my sort of thing but I know I will be able to sell it. I will remove then latter. I do not stick pins in them either.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/DANCER001.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/DANCER002.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/DANCER005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/DANCER006.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/DANCER008.jpg

[Bill M]

Tim, That craftsmanship is truly superb. What will it be cast in? Silver?

I have seen some of your sword work and it is outstanding also.

I am sure the other members would like to see what you can post.

You could make a hell-a-cious Satanic dagger! ;) :D ;)

[Andrew]

Very nice work, Tim. :cool:

[Andrew]

And I though it was the sound of one hand clapping! :rolleyes: :D

spiral

A very Zen comment, Spiral.

http://www.io.com/~snewton/zen/onehand.html

[spiral]

Indeed Andrew, but I meant it for Tims likely interpritation! :D

Nice work indeed Tim, it would be good to see the finnished work. I am sure you could get good sales if you made some Satanic themed pieces or even pretty figural ones to be sold in the Daily mail suplement!

Actualy Ive rather wondered if this one might be a skilled reproduction, with an old blade?

http://www.baltimoreknife.com/images/satanicdagger/satanticdagger3a.JPG


Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

Its that one hand clapper again. I would rather just go to sleep and forget the whole ugly thing.

[spiral]

Sleep well........

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

:D I'm dreaming of a satanic Christmas :D :D :D :D

[Andrew]

I'd prefer not to lock this thread. Let's move on, gentlemen.

Any further comments should be about the subject knife. Or delivered via PM. :shrug:

[katana]

This recently ended on eBay........... satan + dagger = ££$£$£

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=330194211650&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=014

Not so certain it is satanic :shrug: but other than the skull on the pommel, 'outwardly' it looks more like a hunting dirk. Most of the 'possible' satanic symbollism is on the blade.......'hidden' when the knife is 'sheathed'.

[David]

This recently ended on eBay........... satan + dagger = ££$£$£

Yeah, i think this is generally the case. Call something "satanic" and suddenly a whole bunch of people are willing to pay over the top prices.
This dagger seems to have some occult, or at least mythological themes to it which is not at all surprising for the time period. Consider the themes being explored by the pre-Raphaelite movement during this era. The Green Man, mythological creatures, etc. are all quite common in their palette with no practicing satanic references intended.

[Tim Simmons]

After very brief research one has to ask, do scenes of damnation have anything to do with "satanists" cosmology especially as true satanism is largely a 20th century concept ? :shrug:

[spiral]

I realy dont know Tim but while researching the Esmerelda dagger I came across the French book La-bas by J. K. Huysmans published in 1891 which certanly seemed to feature Satanism.

My questian re could the the strangled skelton casting be modern work was a genuine one. I think it could be, but dont have the knowledge of sculpture you do.

I think I detect a modern air to the mans/demons appearance though.

Spiral

[Bill M]

With the tragic loss of Notre Dame Cathedral with especially the loss of the iconic Spire reminded me of this dagger I got from Spiral. It is one of my very favorite pieces and thank Johnathan again for letting me acquire from him.

Anne and I both cried when the Spire fell in flames.

Notre Dame is a profound loss for France and the entire world.

[Jim McDougall]

With the tragic loss of Notre Dame Cathedral with especially the loss of the iconic Spire reminded me of this dagger I got from Spiral. It is one of my very favorite pieces and thank Johnathan again for letting me acquire from him.

Anne and I both cried when the Spire fell in flames.

Notre Dame is a profound loss for France and the entire world.


Good call Bill in bringing this one back. I am still in disbelief this happened, and I don't think many can say tears did not come as something so iconic was seen in flames.
I know it will be restored, but the loss of so much venerated and sacred structure within as well as the loss of the spire will ever be missed.

[kronckew]

Just heard a news broadcast a few minutes ago, the current take on this historic tragedy is that the fire was accidental, Ironically it can then be classified as an act of God. Hopefully, it will be rebuilt in the same ways that have lasted all these centuries. With added sprinklers.

[ariel]

The “ iconic spire” was built by the infamous Viollet-le- Duc in the 1860’s. He installed statues of 12 apostles , 11 of whom had their backs toward the spire. The only one , St. Thomas, facing the spire was his own self-portrait.

There are very few truly old architectural memorials that were not destroyed/rebuilt several times and we still admire them as originals.

The entire City of Warsaw was leveled by the Germans in 1944-5, the Gur Emir ( Tamerlan’s mausoleum in Samarkand) had it’s lost wings rebuilt, the Imperial Palace in Budapest was destroyed by the Ottomans, by 5 sieges by Hapsburgs, the Austrians during Hungarian Revolution of 1848, the Russians in 1944 and again by the same Russians in 1956 ( another Hungarian Revolution) . Each time it was rebuilt according to old plans. Al Aksa in Jerusalem was rebuilt twice after earthquakes and restored after a major fire in 1969 when a schizophrenic Australian evangelical decided to hasten the Judgement Day.

With plenty of money and modern engineering the Notre Dame will look 100% authentic in no time. Fifty years from now its visitors will admire “genuine Gothic architecture” :-)

[Jim McDougall]

The “ iconic spire” was built by the infamous Viollet-le- Duc in the 1860’s. He installed statues of 12 apostles , 11 of whom had their backs toward the spire. The only one , St. Thomas, facing the spire was his own self-portrait.

There are very few truly old architectural memorials that were not destroyed/rebuilt several times and we still admire them as originals.

The entire City of Warsaw was leveled by the Germans in 1944-5, the Gur Emir ( Tamerlan’s mausoleum in Samarkand) had it’s lost wings rebuilt, the Imperial Palace in Budapest was destroyed by the Ottomans, by 5 sieges by Hapsburgs, the Austrians during Hungarian Revolution of 1848, the Russians in 1944 and again by the same Russians in 1956 ( another Hungarian Revolution) . Each time it was rebuilt according to old plans. Al Aksa in Jerusalem was rebuilt twice after earthquakes and restored after a major fire in 1969 when a schizophrenic Australian evangelical decided to hasten the Judgement Day.

With plenty of money and modern engineering the Notre Dame will look 100% authentic in no time. Fifty years from now its visitors will admire “genuine Gothic architecture” :-)


Thanks for the additional info on this iconic cathedral. I was looking into more on it myself, realizing just how much I had always taken for granted that it was always there. It is wonderful poignantly that virtually people from all parts of the world, even outside the Catholic Faith, are all together in mourning the severe damage to this structure.

Apparently, Notre Dame was even suffering decay at the time Victor Hugo wrote his epic novel in 1831, which he duly noted. There were restorations attempted in 1844 as well as numerous times over the years. It is ironic that the very efforts to restore and strengthen this monument caused this terrible event, but this has brought a tremendous solidarity in bringing Notre Dame back to its venerable glory, and even stronger than ever.

It continues its very purpose, its inspiration, even damaged, giving people everywhere hope, faith and strength.

[ariel]

For me, the most poignant moment was an old man living next to Notre Dame, who was crying: his 3 children and a score of grandkids were all baptized there.

For us, ND is an architectural marvel, for the Parisians it is a hallmark of the city, but for him it is his church where he prayed since childhood.

May he merit praying there again.

[Bill M]

some more history about Notre Dame, going back to 1431.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/notre-dame-a-cathedral-in-flames.html?utm_campaign=warhistoryonline


BTW I highly recommend this site, https://www.warhistoryonline.com/ Great articles and many about ancient history regarding ethnographic weapons.