Burmese, East Asian Mak Chopper?

[Tim Simmons]

Is this Asian? 44cm long in total, blade 22cm. If so where from? Any information would be very helpful.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/e006.jpg
This is a follow on from this thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

[Tim Simmons]

Sorted :cool:

[ariel]

That's a pretty little Mak, isn't it?
Maks are essentially glaives and should be held in both hands. I just try to imagine a midget wielding it and.... :eek: :D :D
Where is the Snow White? :shrug:

[Lew]

Ooooo! Here comes mak the knife ;) :D

Nice piece you have there Tim.


Lew

[RhysMichael]

I almost looks like a ram dao to me but the curve goes the wrong way and there is no eye inscription

[Tim Simmons]

I think it is a Ram Dao. Specific to the worship of Kali. The black wood being relevent to this purpose. The example in the link is very nice with the white Ivory symbolic of Shiva. It is really quite amazing what one can learn from an ebay purchase.
http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/items/424192/item424192.html

[Andrew]

Hi Tim. I haven't been ignoring you on this one. I've been in trial and unable to spend much time on the forum or looking at my books.

I've never seen anything like this. It is quite beautiful. The blade profile, at least, does strike me as asian. However, I don't think it's a mak. Let me look at my sources a bit more.

[Tim Simmons]

Thanks Andrew. I still have Africa in the back of my mind especially with reference to the decoration on the copper. I do not think it is a Mak this is not a chopper the blade is light with some flex. Look how similar the bolster is on this and the Ram dao in the link. The is also the similarities in the blade decoration the fuller topped by the crenellation. Googling Kali worship also puts quite a spin on it. As does Kali blood cults, Thugge, Kali sacrifice and so on.

[katana]

Stone shows a knife called a Bhuj Kutti, sometimes called an 'elephant knife' described as a heavy (?) single edged knife blade mounted inline with a single straight handle approx 20" long (not specified if OAL or just length of handle). The blade form illustrated is not the same, but there are similarities in the overall construction. I do not have a scanner so cant post the picture;
It is possible that yours is a varient, your pictures suggest that the knife is vintage rather than older, is this the case?

(sorry ended up posting in both threads :o )

It seems that the symbol of Kali is the swastika, info link below, I would think that this symbol would feature on a ceremonial knife that had decoration...unless there are others ?

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:uaDDxS9-IKQJ:web.pdx.edu/~psu17799/sp510a.htm+kali+symbol&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=uk

[Tim Simmons]

I am not sure as to what symbols are compulsory to denote a devotees object of attention. Here are the ebay pictures, bare in mind the rust is under varnish. The yellow hue is clearly vissible on the blade pic.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/efb8_1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/f071_1.jpg

[Jim McDougall]

Good observation Katana. I had forgotten about the Bhuj Kutti, although I had considered the Malabar chopper in finding weapons comparable to this unusual example of Tim's. I think the 'Bhuj Kutti' ( often termed the elephant knife for the decorative motif which typically included elephant forms) is actually sort of a short hafted polearm, and the heavy chopper blade more comparable to heads of these type weapons.
I think Rhys Michael's note on the absence of the eye which typically is seen on ram dao and other sacrificial weapons associated with Kali is most interesting. It leads to asking what factors would determine variations in the application of this motif as it does seem that there are obviously instances of variation.
The link referring to the suastika is very interesting also, and I was unaware that this now unfortunately connoted device was also a symbol applied to Kali worship. In the instances I have seen it applied to weapons, which are seemingly rare, it has appeared on Chinese blades and in the instance I have seen, appeared in a linear panel of several suastikas. In this case it was a Ming dynasty blade and the device associated with the Buddhist application.

As Tim notes, it would be difficult to determine what factors are key in the application of certain symbolism on these weapons, but perspective on such elements are often key in more specific identification on them.

Best regards,
Jim

[ariel]

IMHO,
We need to consider its size as an important factor. A knife with a 22 cm blade of that configuration is either a utility knife or a ceremonial one. It could work as a Dahomey Amazons' "razor" ( and I shudder to think of its use :eek: ) but could not function as a Ram Dao unless the animals were very, very small. A symbol of a Ram Dao? A temple knife? A carving knife? :shrug:
I just cannot see it as a weapon... Sorry.

[Tim Simmons]

Thank you ariel,

I have mentioned that this is not a chopper but a fine slashing blade with a degree of flex. It reminds me of those curved Buffalo skinning knives except the handle is longer and the whole thing is a lot more artful. It could be for slashing the throats of animals like an adult goat, thier throat
is no bigger than a mans. On another flight of fantasy a Thugge could easily slit your throat with it and do not try and tell me that they only killed by strangulation.

[Jim McDougall]

I think Ariel makes a good point that I honestly had not been considering, this item really is relatively small for something used as a sacrificial implement. Even the tulwar hilted koras of Bengal used in sacrificing doves are of good size and heft.
Perhaps this may indeed be a votive or ceremonial piece that is an interpretive example of the larger weapons actually used?
That brings to mind discussions some time ago of the Afghan 'lohar' and whether its rather diminutive size would disqualify it as a practical weapon. Also there were claims that these functioned as utilitarian ice choppers etc. and it was suggested that these were likely modern versions of the earlier examples that probably did serve as weapons. The more modern examples were basically interpretations that served recalling the traditional form much as smaller examples of other weapons such as miniature swords used as letter openers and the like.

Obviously I am not implying such a mundane course for this intriguing example, but would consider the possibilities of more votive use as being plausible due to the size.

Like Lewis Carroll......curiouser and curioser!!! :)

[Tim Simmons]

I am not sure that 9" of flexable tempered steel drawn across a throat is votive. :eek:

[Jim McDougall]

Uh! OK Tim..........that got my attention!! :) not votive!!!
Back to where we left off.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Tim,
I found some more data in Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that supports what you have just noted and that smaller size does not eliminate the potential for sacrificial use. On p.70 he notes a 'matchu' sacrificial axe with a heavy cleaver like blade of 8". Another weapon shown as a sacrificial scythe has certain comparability and is also from southern India. There seems to be widely varying terminology depending on dialect and region.

Concerning the copper, on p.67, Elgood discusses iron and steel weapons and that thier polluting qualities are often mitigated by the use of copper or brass on the hilts.

It does seem that weaponry of Nepal and Bengal in many cases cross influence with of course diffusion to southern India also typical, as with most weapon forms in the subcontinent.

[Tim Simmons]

Thanks for bringing that to my attention Jim. There is also mention of a bill hook with a flexible blade on page 75 The blade is flexible so to activate jingles attached to the blade. Not to say this is the inspiration of the example I post but does hint at variation.
Further to Elgoods writings which are more concerned with courtly or "high church" in these matters. We should bare in mind the many aboriginals and more backwoods people like the Khond where in the first half of the 19th century the sacrifice of some poor devil is more than possible, having there head pulled back and throat cut :eek: far from any high temple. The implements used may not be of a standard form one is often looking for. The crenellation on blades used outside of "high culture" could be a representation of the jingles on the temple blades? The jingles being a cleansing part of the ceremony in the temple.

I believe there is the occasionnal unpleasant sacrifice made now in modern times by what I imagine as rather disturbed devotees. :shrug:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_25-7-2002_pg4_16

[katana]

I am not so certain this knife would be very efficient for cutting throats. Ideally the edge would be on the opposite side (where the crenallations are) so that the blade cuts as it is drawn across the throat (with knife wielder behind the victim) A short handle would also give better control than the longer handle on this knife.

The 'long' handle on the knife would suggest two-handed use, however the small, light blade would not require this. It could be that the handle gives 'length' to the knife to reach its target.

Below is a 'modern' cane knife, blade is 20.5 cms, could Tim's knife be a ritual agricultural tool. Harvest time in many cultures is surrounded by ritual, ceremony and superstition .....

[Tim Simmons]

Yes an expensive special knife for a special costly harvest. The handle has only room for one hand and very sharp. I have not tried to cut any throats with a concave or convex blade so that is in question for me. ;)

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Tim,
Great deductive reasoning there!! I'm right with ya! The idea of vestigial representation for the jingles in the crenallations makes a lot of sense and a more rudimentary example for 'field' use , cf. dress sword vs. combat sword.
Like you, throat cutting and such grim matters is the least enjoyable facet of consideration in examining the plausible function of this piece for me. I do agree with Katana in his observation that an edge on the inside curve would seem more functional for such purpose. The sharpened outer edge suggests use in a chopping fashion rather than a drawcut.

Returning to the size of this weapon again, it seems that in Asian regions the primary weapon was typically much as in many aboriginal areas, either the bow and arrow or spear. Edged weapons were typically secondary and used in close quarters melee. While not suggesting this piece would be in that category, it is simply a suggestion for consideration overall since we have examined so many aspects of the ceremonial /sacrificial potential due to similarity to ram dao. It would seem that ram dao, like the kora and other chopping type weapons, had combat counterparts, and like the kukri, could be used as a utilitarian implement as well. In discussions some time ago, as I mentioned concerning the Afghan lohar, the smaller size of these did not dismiss possible combative use especially in close quarters or as with Afghans in stealth attacks with easily concealed weapons. The British occupiers took a dim view of tribesmen carrying weapons.

Something else that we need to look at is the interesting symbols or characters deeply stamped in the blade. Do these coincide with others that might be found on examples from suggested regions, like the knife you included earlier? What might these represent?

[Tim Simmons]

Jim. It is too light to chop. That is why a went with the African razor it is like a razor. The Nepalese Ram Dao link is too much of a match to think of Africa any more for me right now. It would make an excellent slashing secondary weapon. Held with the blade facing you I think it could do a serious unpleasantness to man or beast. Or the other way for that matters.

[Battara]

The only problem with the ram do connection is that the ram do or other sacrificial knife like that in Nepal has an eye that is the symbol of Durga, the consort of Shiva and it is her avatar in a sense that cuts the head off the animal. Without the eye, it is not "alive" with her presence.

If it is a sacrificial weapon, I would put it with India or somewhere else.

[Jim McDougall]

Hey Battara!! I was hoping you'd come in on this! :)
The symbolism of the eye is indeed key on these sacrificial weapons and thanks for adding the detail on Durga. What I'm wondering is if every ram dao was sacrificial, and how widely was the ram dao (realizing of course degree of variants) diffused?
Although as Tim notes, this item is too small for effective chopping, it is still of a size for close quarters slashing. Then if intended for such use, the question on the unusual crenallations arises again since that would suggest ceremonial use. Truly a conundrum!!

[Tim Simmons]

Elgood mentions the eye but includes pictures of sacrificial weapons without the eye. Perhaps the eye is not always a prerequisite?

[fearn]

I've been watching this with interest, but I'll admit I don't have a lot of answers. What got me into this is the cane knife that katana posted. I've got one. Cold Steel sells these (under the title "two handed machete") and they are choppers with 2 mm thick blades. However, the overall length is over 80 cm, and the chopping power derives from the long handle. Balance wise, mine handles like an axe, rather than a sword, and it's a decent machete.

While the thinness of the blade doesn't disqualify it, the short length does. It's hard to get a good chop out of a short knife, although it's possible (I've tried). From a purely functional perspective, it's not well-built. That curved panga blade would be great, if the blade was 40 cm, not 20 cm. I'd believe it was a weapon if it had a decent point, or if the blade was so heavy (i.e. an axe) that it could cut well despite its short length. If it's not a weapon, that means it is some sort of ceremonial/decorative/experimental thingie.

My 0.0002 cents,

F

[Battara]

Hey Battara!! I was hoping you'd come in on this! :)
The symbolism of the eye is indeed key on these sacrificial weapons and thanks for adding the detail on Durga. What I'm wondering is if every ram dao was sacrificial, and how widely was the ram dao (realizing of course degree of variants) diffused?
To my knowledge every ram do was sacrificial and has eye on both sides. Not every sacrificial Indian subcontinental knife is associated with the ram do however.

[Tim Simmons]

This picture next to a large kitchen knife might help get a better feel. The kitchen knife is pretty much the same weight perhaps a few grams more, 250g but my kitchen scales are not the most sensitive. The knife could chop some chicken bones like wings or legs once the flesh is parted. It might cut off a finger of if placed on a board but one would need force, unlike the kitchen knife it is not as wieght forward. It is not as well tempered as the kitchen knife. So it is a slashing cut knife. I am getting dizzy with this one. I will try and put what we have so far in some kind of order.

Indian/Bengal,Nepal? origin.
prestige wood handle with some mythology, and in it's usage. {something about Kali the mother, great fire and coromandel wood being the result and link to Kali}
similarity to certain sacrificial weapons.
cuts rather than chops.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/wood004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/wood005.jpg

[Tim Simmons]

The butchers knife has got soaring to new dizzying heights. This knife has been used to do some chopping.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/wood010.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/wood009.jpg

I might speculate that the crenelations represent the jingles to ward off demons during the ritual.

The blade is of a form related the sacrificial knives.

The black wood to associate with kali in the act of destroying the ego.

Sky Burial?

Incidentally the Ram Dao in the link, the figure at the handle end is Shiva with the staff thing in CourseEights post "what did I just buy?" so that Ram dao appears to have Shiva and Kali present not only as the black wood and ivory.

[fearn]

Hi Tim,

A sacrificial knife for chickens and oranges, maybe? :shrug:

Maybe it's time to hunt up a Hindu priest for this one. Or maybe a psychic...

F

[Tim Simmons]

I might be that psychic :confused: :D :cool:

[fernando]

As anybody considered it being a circumcision knife?
If this is a silly idea, just forget it :shrug:

[Tim Simmons]

Stop boasting. lets keep the top on. :eek:

[fernando]

Stop boasting. lets keep the top on. :eek:
I don't get it ... i am quite serious :o
I have been all the afternoon consulting sites on this theme ... i even saw a couple knives for such exercize. Only none looked like this one.
I have seen some such tools when i was in Africa, reason why the idea came to my mind.
But if it is not wellcome, i will draw it back.
Sorry
Fernando

[Tim Simmons]

Fernando dear chap it was meant as a joke. It is a big knife for a big ? you would not want to loose the top. Sorry I am British we cannot help ourselves.

I have been searching too. As you have read I went for it thinking it was African. I wonder? If I was right in the first place :shrug:

[Mark]

Two thoughts. A sacrificial knife for slitting the throat of the (hopefully) animal sacrifice does not need to be practical in form, so the odd curve doesn't rule that out I think. On another tact, this kind of broad sweep is seen on skinning knives, so perhaps it is one of these, ritual or otherwise.

[Tim Simmons]

Well it strikes it was made to serve a purpose. It was clearly cared for in a previous collection, does not necessarily make it special. It is so much like other things I have which are serious stuff. It does not have the feel of a domestic item like a betel nut cutter. Unless somebody comes forward with the full low down I could say anthing I might even say African. Which it jolly well could be. :cool:

[fernando]

Fernando dear chap it was meant as a joke. It is a big knife for a big ? you would not want to loose the top. Sorry I am British we cannot help ourselves.

I have been searching too. As you have read I went for it thinking it was African. I wonder? If I was right in the first place :shrug:

Well Tim, i was like the fool on the bridge!
I have noticed the smily :eek: , but also thaught of a mispeling, like you telling me not to go off top-ic.
Portuguese also play with words, only you have the advantage of mother language ;)
Concerning the knife, i align on the queue for the Oriental version ... i know pretty well that you are on the African side.
BTW i am circumsized myself ... and still up top ... ic :cool: .
fernando

[Tim Simmons]

Fernando how sad for a minute I thought you were on my side. Historically Portugal is Britain's oldest ally.
I suppose somebody could have collected a domestic knife and painted it in varnish to preserve it.

Or a bit like the Afghan Lohar sugar hammer. I have go one of those too sugar hammer that is. :o

[fernando]

Fernando how sad for a minute I thought you were on my side. Historically Portugal is Britain's oldest ally.
I suppose somebody could have collected a domestic knife and painted it in varnish to preserve it.

Or a bit like the Afghan Lohar sugar hammer. I have go one of those too sugar hammer that is. :o

Just keep your faith. You will end up finding this piece is one of the most rare and precious specimens you ever got.
You see i am giving you all the strenght. That's what allies are for :cool:

[Emanuel]

Hello Tim,

I was perusing through the Oriental-Arms archive and I stubbled on to this interesting Afghan blade, very similar to your chopper: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1036 it has the same rounded serrations on the back and the curved, clipped point.
Here are some of the pics.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Tim Simmons]

Now that is very interesting, fantastic recall. The similarity is unquestionable. I have not seen the use of the Indian ebony "coromandel wood" on Afghan items.
On my example the line cut in the blade and stamp are seen on the Afghan/ entral Asian knife with the ivory handle I post earlier. Does anybody feel it would be unreasonable to assume this has been sorted completely? Is it or is it not a weapon? any knife is a weapon?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/e029-1.jpg
more pics here
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

[Tim Simmons]

I wonder if these knives and my example in particular are to do with "QURBANI" I only say this because although a deadly thing, I do have some doubt about a field and battle hardiness but one can find a great deal of lightweight slashing weapons in less affluent areas.

[Emanuel]

I'm thinking this could work for beheading a chicken or maybe even a goat, but it's too small to tackle a bull. Maybe this is still a ram-dao type but reserved for smaller animals :shrug:
They'd look pretty darn wicked and vicious if they were full sword-sized.

[fearn]

Here's an another off-the-wall idea: it's a rochin, from the Matayoshi tradition of kobudo. I just saw this a few days ago, and thanks for bringing this thread up where I could make the connection.

Check out this YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TzWZytANno&feature=related) , and look at the weapon nearest the teacher's right knee. It's a long-handled, short-bladed, dao-like weapon about the length of the man's forearm, and the back is wavy. Matayoshi reportedly learned the weapon in China. For those interested, the "dao" rochin is discussed around 4:15 into the video.

Just a thought,

F

[Tim Simmons]

fearn, interesting thought.
China does have a border with Afghanistan and India. The weapon in the video is very much heavier than the two knives we are looking at here so I would dismiss that as an origin. However there could be some link in the weapon from Oriental arms archive, ref- the guard as seen on many Chinese border lands Dha/Dao. I think you have really opened things. One could see a relation between the Nepalese sacrificial knife from a link in the thread, to the most recently post knife and mine. We could be looking at a meeting of south and east. The one with a guard does seem to suggest a utility knife or possible weapon.

In an earlier time without todays set political borders the Afghan/Chinese border would just be part of central Asia? does this add up?

The Nepalese sacrificial knife, just to refresh the memory. Think NE Nepal, Tibet, China and so on mixed up :confused:
http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/items/424192/en1.html

[Tim Simmons]

Any idea what knives are used in the preparation of a sky burial? or am I really loosing it!!!! :eek: :D :eek: :D :D

Go to the section "disassembling the body" a few comments on the knife. Not very helpful but hint at a specialist tool?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial

[Tim Simmons]

Before retiring for the night I would just like to add; you cannot deny that there is something here with the two examples shown.

[katana]

Hi Tim,
did you notice this....

"......A kartika is a small, symbolic crescent knife or 'chopper', used in Buddhist ceremony. It symbolizes the severance of all material and worldly bonds and is crowned with a vajra or dorje, which is said to destroy ignorance, and leads to enlightenment. In Buddhist teachings, this tool is held in the right hand of Yama, the conqueror of death. It is also used in Feng Shui."


From this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartika_%28knife%29

And following on from that...
"....The Kartika (Skt.) or curved knife symbolises the cutting of conventional wisdom by the ultimate insight into emptiness. Is is usually present as a pair, together with the skullcup, filled with wisdom nectar. On a more simple level, the skull is a reminder of (our) impermanence. Between the knife and the handle is a makara-head, a mythical monster.[23]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6d



The chopper is one of the most prominent weapons used by Buddhism's angry deities, both male and female. Continuously brandished by them or simply carried in their hands, its purpose is to chop up disbelievers.

This curved flaying-knife is modeled on the Indian ' knife of the butchers', used for skinning animal hides. The gibbous crescent of its blade, which terminates in a sharp point or curved hook, combines the flaying implements of a cutting-knife and scraping blade, and the piercing activity of a dagger or pulling-hook. The blade's crescent is used for cutting through flesh and scraping it clean, separating the outer and inner as 'appearance and emptiness'. The sharp hook or point of the blade is used for the more delicate acts of flaying: the initial incising of the carcass, the pulling out of veins and tendons, and cutting around the orifices of the skin.




Regards David

[fearn]

Skip. Point was already made. Fun discussion!

[Tim Simmons]

I have been thinking about these two knives all day. Perhaps they are just simple skinning and butchery knives from North India or Nepal and there abouts. They could come into collections through the great 19th century desire to hunt and obtain trophies, heads or hides. One thing for sure the Great White Hunter would not process the kill. The poor wallah that had to do the task may well have been vegetarian so a knife carrying symbols that nod to religious and spiritual cleansing would be good "Karma" and all that stuff. The knife could have relevance outside of working for the Great White Hope. In a world without large industrial meat production and many low caste people that may be vegetarian but still expected to process animals for meat and bone and leather, I think it only makes sense that the tools of the trade would have these symbols. All assuming the decorations do have the meanings discussed earlier.

One could google skinning knives and make very basic comparisons.

[Tim Simmons]

Ended. Alone similar lines but not the same? more the RAMBO hunting saw back thing? I think it does show that the crenalations in the other discussed items do carry some meaning.

[Tim Simmons]

Another one the same size blade.

http://www.fieldserviceantiquearms.co.uk/19th-century-north-india-sacrificial-sword--ram-dao-237-p.asp