Meteoric Patrem-Made In England...

[lemmythesmith]

Hello to everyone!! Here's a little patrem that I've forged from Campo Del Cielo meteorite and old wrought iron with a steel core. The wrongko is thuya burl and the gandar is ebony. Ivory ukiran in the Durga/Dewa Sri/Wadon form. Mendak in sterling silver.
I used 325g of iron salvaged from Windsor Castle after the fire, 190g of Campo meteorite and 90g of Kango (jackhammer chisel) for the steel core. Pamor of 170 or so layers in a "ladder" pattern which has turned out quite reflective, got a little carried away with a complex ricikan which looking back (hindsight is always 20/20!) was a little ambitious, still, I had a lot of fun building it and learned a lot too!! I think I'll steer clear of complex dapor for a while and concentrate on getting the overall shape right!! There wasn't an overall plan for this keris what you see sort of just "happened" with the constituent parts coming together because I liked the style or shape of them, hence the "hybrid" form!!

[David]

Quite nice for a Brit Keris. :)
And finally a keris that we can say for sure is made with meteoric pamor. :)
Did you also make the dress?

[lemmythesmith]

Hi David, aye, it's all my work... though I may be buying mendak instead of making them-too many blades to try to take time off to fiddle with silver!!

[Michel]

Hi lemmythesmith
A superb work ! Congratulation. Wrought iron + meteorite + steel, that must have been a nice exercise to heat weld.
I am curious to know what is the weight of the keris blade . You had 615 g of metal originally, how much has been lost in the forging process ( and stock removal !)
I am very impressed because I am in a similar process but I am sure no way close to your result.
Good job keep doing it.
Michel

[A. G. Maisey]

Nice forge-work, Lemmy.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

bravoooooo

[Richard Furrer]

Lemmy,
I heard about a smith geting permission and using the Windsor iron in some work..I assume that is you.
Nice bit of work there.

I have done a bit of work with meteorites over the years as well..no keris though.
http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=4704&hl=meteorite+ingo


Ric Furrer
Sturgeon Bay, WI

[A. G. Maisey]

Richard, I attempted to access your pics, but cannot get to them. Some sort of "not a member" thing.

By what you have written it looks as if you smelted the meteoritic material.

I've worked meteoritic material a number times and have only ever done it in the forge. You just bring it together gently to begin, after about 3 or 4 welds its more or less stable, and it takes about 7 welds to get it nice and clean. Then it has been welded in with old iron. Where I've used it in a keris it has been used as the pamor layers, where I've used it in damascus it was welded with 01.

Haven't done any of this work for a few years. From memory I started to work with it about 1986 or 1988, and did the last bit about 1996 or 1997.I used Arizona meteorite, and really, its no big trick to work the stuff, as long as you stay gentle till it comes together. Get too heavy handed early, and it comes apart under the hammer like cottage cheese.

Back about 12 or 14 years ago I supplied a quantity of meteoritic material , ready to be used as pamor material to a pandai keris in Solo. He made two keris using this material. The first one was sold to ---I think---the Ambassador to Indonesia for Venezuela, I have the second one. Both these keris used a damascus core.

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Michel, Hope your patrem forging is going well!! I'll have to weigh the blade and let you know-got to do it for my own records, but it's not very heavy. I don't tend to do too much stock removal as my forging background is more orientated to the Japanese sword which are wholly forged so I set out to make keris the same way (fool)...MUCH harder than forging a wakizashi!!

Hi Richard, I'm afraid I'm not the smith you've heard about with the Windsor iron! I got the piece I have from a guy I knew who went to Ironbridge looking for some iron to make tsuba. He was directed to a pile of twisted, blackened and corroded girders which he managed to beg a piece of-half of which he ended up swapping with me for some damascus.... Tried the site with the pics but can't access them, only just registered with that forum so I'll take a look at them when my details are processed.

Hi Alan, thanks!! (always nice to get another smiths praise!) I must have a go at further refining the meteorite, I've tended to take it to welding heat and consolidate it into a bar, draw it down and layer it with terrestrial wrought. Does weld nicely though, I prefer it to welding pure nickel even though it's not as bright. Sounds like you've used Canyon Diablo from Arizona, that one does tend to have a lot of silicate inclusions in it but it really impresses when you can show people a photo of that hole it left in the desert!! Campo Del Cielo seems to take a bit of beating before it disintegrates- Much cheaper too.

Thanks David and Raden!!

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, it was Canyon Diablo, and it cost me a fortune. Back then there was no internet or ebay to buy from, so you hunted the stuff from mineral dealers who charged and arm and a leg for a handfull of tiny little bits. I didn't ever start with one lump of the stuff, it was always a handful of little bits , the biggest maybe half inch square, that I brought together in the forge until sticky, then gently tapped together.Finished product was OK though.

Never ever found welding nickel difficult, even in coke. Second bit of damascus I ever made included nickel.

With meteorite and also with any old iron, I always like to wash the material until I get no sparks off it.With the meteoritic stuff this was around 7 or 8 welds, with hot short old wheel rims its probably about the same, but with good quality wrought iron from carriage strapping, or similar , three or four welds might be sufficient.

[PenangsangII]

Dear Lemmy,

The the forging process, did you also imbue the keris with the spiritual contents? :D

[Richard Furrer]

Richard, I attempted to access your pics, but cannot get to them. Some sort of "not a member" thing.

By what you have written it looks as if you smelted the meteoritic material.

.

Yes indeed I did melt it...its my "thing".
I used Nantan meteorite from China and it has 6-7% nickel...the color tone from 7% is not too different from 2% so I diluted it to 2% with iron and added enough carbon to bring it to about 0.6%...thus making an ingot of good steel.

Sorry about not being able to access Don Fogg's discussion site...I need to place all that on my website...its on the list of things to do.

I never found the folding in the raw meteorite all that efficient...with some space rocks its not possible as they are too full of crud to work in that fassion....BUT...that is more traditional.

Ric

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Penangsang, I'm afraid not!! :D Seriously though, you do have to have a certain mental preparation to make blades otherwise mistakes and disasters ensue! (and some real good burns)

Hi Alan, when you say you wash the iron until there are no sparks do you mean as in grinding the metal or does it get to full welding heat without any of the usual "lazy" sparks that come from wrought at that temperature? Sounds like a good indicator to know, I've usually washed iron so that when it's cut with the hot chisel it will fold back on itself without breaking, I'm always interested to learn new techniques!

[A. G. Maisey]

Lemmy, the cut and fold test is something that will work with hotshort material, but just because you can do this, it doesn't necessarily mean that the material is clean.When you take dirty material up towards weld heat it throws off lots of little sparks when you whack it, when it is clean these little sparks drop to an absolute minimum , or even none at all, what you have is a nice dense billet of material that is easy to work, and that you can do anything with. Similarly, in the fire the material tends not to throw off much in the way of sparks when it gets to weld heat, so if you're using coke or charcoal, you need to find another way to give you an indication of when its ready to take the weld. I normally use a 4lb. hammer to take a weld, and when the material is stuck, I give it another heat, put the billet under a hold-down tool, and use a ten or twelve pound hammer to consolidate the weld and draw it out; when material is dirty, that initial bringing together of the material throws out a lot of sparks from dirty material, when the material is clean, you might get just a few little stars.You can actually feel the difference under the hammer:- the clean material is sort of like hitting velvet. I'm talking about forge processes here, nothing at all to do with grinding. Folding back on itself, I do not use the hot chisel to allow the fold to be made, this is too slow, I use the edge of the anvil to put a crease in the material, then bend the bar down over the offside of the anvil, this gives you a right angle, which you can close down to the other arm on top of the anvil. Before you close the fold its probably best to get rid of as much scale as you can.Of course, if you're using a gas forge it becomes much, much easier. Anybody can weld almost anything with gas, its just like making cakes.

[Richard Furrer]

Of course, if you're using a gas forge it becomes much, much easier. Anybody can weld almost anything with gas, its just like making cakes.

I've seen a lot of bad cakes made by poor bakers with good ovens Alan.

Certain tools make the work possible alone...even profitable....rarely easy.

Still..I wish I had a few strikers at times...some Pamor I have seen are complex and difficlut to replicate.

Ric

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, strikers can be a Godsend. It gets terribly hard sometimes to handle big material with a hold down tool. Those little mechanical hammers---what do they call them?---an oliver?---can be good too.Of course, the best would be a nice big power hammer, but I doubt it would ever be possible to get your money back on the investment.You'd probably need to stick it in the middle of a five acre paddock too, if you didn't want neighbour problems.

Of course you're right about bad cakes, but gas compared to charcoal or coke---well, its really a walk up start. Compared to coal, where you need to coke the coal before you can weld, there simply is no comparison.Two totally different worlds. I've taught a number of people how to forge weld, and what I've found is this:- with good clean coke, a committed learner, starting from a low knowledge base, will pick it up in about 6 to 8 full working days.With gas, again starting from a low knowledge base, a couple of three or four hour sessions is enough to have a committed learner doing good tight welds.In fact, even my wife can weld in a gas forge. Further, it is possible for a relative new-comer to achieve complex welds in gas that in the heyday of blacksmiths would only have been able to be achieved by extremely talented masters.Gas is cheap, clean, effective and very easy, when compared to any other fuel.

[Michel]

Hi Alan,
You have sent a few very very interesting messages lately concerning forging.
They have taught us a lot. Lemmythesmith may not have learned as much as my son and myself but I can tell you we did read and reread your messages, as you tell an awful lot in each.
Now forging with gas is something that we have never really considered but reading you it is worth a close look at it. Among the advantages that I could hope for, isn't the fact that one can see much better the heated piece ?
With charcoal it is always a problem as many pieces of charcoal are closing a precise view of the piece to be welded.
If you have clean material, with practically no sparks at welding temperature, it is almost a "must" to have a good view of the piece to weld to judge the temperature by its color. Any other signs for judging the welding temp ?
How do you do it with gas forging ?
Thanks for all these informations
Regards
Michel

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Michel, first, the final weight of the patrem blade is about 87 grammes.. Second, judging welding heat without the sparks can be done by looking at the surface of the iron whilst it's in the fire-the surface will look like butter on a hot day, slightly molten. (the surface looks wet) Never used a gas forge so I can't comment-I've always used coke or charcoal.

As for using a striker, I wish I still had this.......

I have a PDF which has full drawings for building a similar tool, I'm currently constructing one half size, the page seems to be down at the moment so if you want the plans let me know and I'll email them to you.

Regards, Graham.

[Michel]

Hi Graham,
Thank you for these information. You obviously have quite a bit of knowhow about forging and you learn less than I do here in reading Alan's messages.
I knew that a substantial part of the metal was lost in forging and in stock removal but 86 % of the original metal weight looks for me as a lot. I lost much less and this explain certainly parts of my difficulties.
While forging and heat welding the different layers of metal, I was always concerned about the amount of scale and oxidized material. And this clearly restricted my number of folds and the size of the metal billet. Well, apparently this is not a point to be concerned about, I have only to start with enough material !
My hold down tool does not work to my satisfaction and I have sometime difficulties in following Alan's methods to consolidate the weld.(hold down tool and heavier hammer) but if one forges with two peoples, one of them can replace the hold down tool !
If you can send a PDF of a stricker, I'd love that but I do promise to build one
I may try but I am not so sure it will fit in my workshop !
Thanks a lot
Regards
Michel

[A. G. Maisey]

Michel, my striker has at various times been one of my sons, my wife, or myself---with wife or son holding the tongs. Couple of times it has been people I've been teaching at the time.I have never had mechanical assistance.

My hold-down tool is a gooseneck that fits in the pritchel hole. You stick the billet under it, whack the bend in the gooseneck, which drives it down tight into the hole, then whack the billet. Not particularly effective, and constantly needs reshaping, but it does work, and the job can be done with it.

I was taught to forge with coal, and to weld, I had to coke the coal then weld. My teacher at that time was an oldtime blacksmith named Gordon Blackwell, and he taught me to weld by reading the fire. Depending on the type of material you are welding, when the material approaches weld heat the fire throws out different sparks. You observe the fire very closely and when you see the sparks you're looking for you take the weld.

Later on I learnt a different method of testing weld heat and that is I what I have used since I learnt it, no matter if I am using coke, charcoal or gas.

Make a poker out of half inch material and forge it to a point. When you feel that the material is coming into weld heat you touch the surface of the billet with the point of the poker, if it is ready to weld the surface will be just a wee bit sticky.It is best to keep the poker warm by passing it high through the flames. You do not take it wet out of the tub and try to test with it.

I have never used colour as an indicator for welding, it can be too misleading, and it varies according to the light coming into the forge. The colour of a billet ready to weld that is in an enclosed smithy is significantly different to the colour of a billet ready to weld that is outside under a tree.

In fact, if you are doing a lot of welding, you will get to the point where you can "feel" that the material is ready to weld. Its like there is an invisble line between you and the material in the fire and you just know when it is ready. A little bit of anhydrous borax can work wonders as a flux, especially in coke.

[Richard Furrer]

In fact, if you are doing a lot of welding, you will get to the point where you can "feel" that the material is ready to weld. Its like there is an invisble line between you and the material in the fire and you just know when it is ready. A little bit of anhydrous borax can work wonders as a flux, especially in coke.

Alan,Michel,Graham and All,
I like borax..sometimes with some cast iron filings for a tricky weld..it goes liquid and baths the work.
I am lucky in that I have a rather fully tooled shop (50 weight hammer, 45 ton hydraulic press, small rolling mill and soon a 3B Nazel (265 weight air hammer) will be online.

I like pattern-welding quite a bit and like Alan says the "feel" comes in time, but gas does let you view the steel and take some liberties that are not possible in other fuels (like walking away to refill the coffee cup) while the billet cooks. I have done 45 pound billets of steel in the past, but rarely work over 20 pounds now..15 being the "normal" size for the tools I have.

I just finished this axe and sword for an exhibit. The blade is a yataghan varient with three bar composite (300 layer top and bottom with 150 layer center twist). The Axe is a five bar composite with three twisted layers and two straight..20 layer bar each.

Ric

[Richard Furrer]

Hello All,
Here are the shots that could not be viewed on the other forum.
If this and the previous message are too far outside this discussion please delete.

Raw materials (crucible,steel powder,meteorite,green glass)
Ingot cooking (note full safety gear..or lack ther of)
Ingot of smelted meteorite steel which was fored out and welded to modern 1084 steel for contrast
blade made from that billet..1600 layer twist with ivory and ebony
blade detail

Ric

[Michel]

Thank you Alan,
From each of your answers, I learn a lot.
I print them and make a file out of them. Invaluable.
How do they call these experts in Japan : living treasure ? I do not recall the exact name. This is what you are for me. thanks a lot.

Hi Richard,
You are indeed well equipped in your workshop and produce well made tools.
In your photos your show glass and crucible as raw materials.
What exactly is "crucible" ?
Why do you put green glass in your forging process ?
You utilize steel powder. Don't you loose a lot of this material before it is molten by oxidizing it and really burning it ?
What is the advantage of utilizing steel powder versus a piece of steel ?
Regards
Michel

[Richard Furrer]

Michel,

In your photos your show glass and crucible as raw materials.
What exactly is "crucible" ?
-------a crucible is a ceramic container which holds the molten metal in the furnace.
Why do you put green glass in your forging process ?
---------the glass is a flux which bonds with the oxides and removes them from the metal so it can melt and be free of contamination...borax is too aggressive and will eat the crucible.
You utilize steel powder. Don't you loose a lot of this material before it is molten by oxidizing it and really burning it ?
------the crucible is covered (cosed system) and the glass is the flux so there is very little loss
What is the advantage of utilizing steel powder versus a piece of steel ?
---the steel is a modern metal powder of known chemistry so I can get a certain type of steel when I cam finished.
Ric

[Michel]

Thank you Ric
It shows that you are really making your steel at your own specifications.
Impressive.
I am really in an other ball game. My ideal has been to achieve some results with as little as possible equipment. I have always been impressed by the abilities of the Indonesian smiths (as an example) who work with very little equipment and almost any type of metal scrap they can find. And they heat weld !
I have still a lot to learn.
Thank you for your explanations
Regards
Michel

[A. G. Maisey]

I think that my philosophy has always been the same as yours, Michel. From the beginning , I wanted to work as close to barebones as I could. The reason I learnt how to do forge work was to prepare me for the instruction I was to recieve from Empu Suparman---I didn't want to walk in cold, knowing nothing.When you work like this, there are some severe limitations on what can be done. Using a gas forge does make things easier, but the only reason I went to gas was that I was unable to buy coke, and living in a residential area, I could not use coal.

Michel, I suggest that you try to get hold of a copy of "Practical Blacksmithing" by M.T.Richardson. It was originally published in the 19th century, and reissued by Weathervane Books New York in about 1978. It is a collection of work experiences by working smiths.

Incidentally, in the old days it was an acknowledged fact that not every smith could weld. It was not unusual for smiths in a particular area to sub-contract their welding work to just one man amongst them. Doing good, tight, clean welds is acknowledged as about the most difficult thing you can do. In fact, when I began to learn forge work and I stated that my intention was to weld iron, steel and nickel, I was told by many people, including my own teacher, several technical college teachers of industrial blacksmithing, the resident expert at BHP in Newcastle (BHP is an immense mining and steel producing company) that what I wanted to do was simply impossible, and I'd better forget it.

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Ric, what kind of meteorite is that? Is it the Nantan? Has it turned to a kind of haematite? I've seen those on E-Bay, if it was one of those just wondering if you broke it up did it have any cracks or fissures inside? Might be an interesting ukiran material. Probably a wee bit heavy though!

[Michel]

Thank you Alan,
I will try to find that "Practical Blacksmithing" by M.T.Richardson. I have already a book by Tim McCreight "the complete Metalsmith" but it covers so much ground that it does not get in enough detail about forging.
In French we have a say : "c'est en forgeant que l'on devient forgeron" = it is in forging that one become a smith. This is the real answer to my problems !
I try simply to shorten the apprenticeship in asking questions but the more I practice the more I will know and feel things. I am sure that Ric and Gordon can count their forging hours is the hundreds and you probably in the thousands, I still count them in tens ! And I am not specially gifted !
Thank you for your many advices, they certainly shorten my apprenticeship.
Regards
Michel

[Richard Furrer]

Hi Ric, what kind of meteorite is that? Is it the Nantan? Has it turned to a kind of haematite? I've seen those on E-Bay, if it was one of those just wondering if you broke it up did it have any cracks or fissures inside? Might be an interesting ukiran material. Probably a wee bit heavy though!

That particular piece in the photo was supplier by a client..it was a Russian fall, but I do not remember the name.
The "normal" type I use is Nantan and Campo. The nantan has almost pure nickel srips inside and is rusted in many places...it is good for melting, but I think simply folding it in would be problematic for the first five wleds or so.

Alan,
"low tech" is good till you have to make a living. I struggled with this for years before I made the leap to larger tools. I work alone and have a wide range of jobs. In the past I have forged knives using a granite hammer and anvil and forge welded with a box bellows and charcoal whith a forge of mud...it works, but I can not make railings that way.
If someone wants a traditional piece than I do it as close as I can recreate, but few wish to pay the added expense.

Ric

[A. G. Maisey]

Ric, I hear what you're saying, and I agree with you 100%.

My work in the forge has only ever been for educational purposes. I set out to learn as much as I could about traditional blade-smithing principle and practice. I did not set out to make a living. I learnt a lot of general blacksmithing along the way, and I made damascus blades for a while and sold them, but even back 25-30 years ago it was costing me money to play with damascus. When you charge $10 PH for knife work, and people are prepared to pay you +$60PH (C1990) for writing an opinion, what's the smart thing to do?
Still, I did the unsmart thing for a lot of years, and learnt a lot from it.
I'm glad you can make a living from your forge, but even so, I reckon you'd be a rareity at the present time. I know a couple of extremely talented damascus makers in the US who have fully tooled shops with hammers that would make Thor flinch, and they just struggle along. Just to get return on capital investment seems to be regarded as a major achievement. Here in Australia, I doubt that anybody in knife work of any type, let alone specialist damascus smiths, can make a living from it. Yeah, they might say they do, but investigate them and you'll find some other source of income propping them up---often a wife who works a regular job.
I know two or three "art smiths" here in Australia who can scratch a living by doing stuff like wrought iron railings and so on (using mild steel); I know one old bloke who still does traditional stuff like resetting springs and repointing jack hammer tips, but all these people just barely make a living. If they had financial advisors---which they do not---I'm certain that the advice would be to quit work and go onto social security, because they'd be better off.
Its good to know somebody can still make a living out of fire and iron.

Michel , I'm sorry to disillusion you, but my time spent in forging would be very, very low compared to a fulltime smith like Ric.The difference between Ric and me is that Ric is working at something to make a living, I have always worked at forge work to learn specific things. You could call it an academic approach. The sort of things I have learnt would be not a hell of a lot of use in making money out of forge work.

Additionally, in the making of a keris blade, most of the work time is spent in the sculpting. The longest time it ever took me to make a keris blade was 47 man-days.
This was comprised of me and two strikers making the forging, this was pamor miring and took three days.So that's 9 man-days.
The actual benchwork took the balance of the time:- 38 days of between 8 and 10 hours each.
I am not counting the staining tme.
To sculpt the sogokan alone took 8 days---four days for each side.
The forge work involved in a keris blade is regarded as rough work that any reasonably qualified smith should be able to do.
The difficult part of making a keris blade is all in the bench work.

In all blade work I have done, I have only ever worked in a traditional fashion, using traditional tools. Doing it this way, only very wealthy people can afford fine quality work.
Read what Ric says about the cost of traditional work:- a lot of people want it, but who is prepared to pay the price?

[Richard Furrer]

Alan,
I envy your experiences with the Empu...learning traditional craft is a hobby of mine...I was in India in Feb/March looking at museums and talking to smiths (Bhanwarlal) in Rajisthan (North India).
Tradition now is an electric stone grinder and a power hammer. They can still do the old work (well some can), but few are interested in paying. Antiques are cheaper than modern work so many antiques are re-worked with modern tastes and sold.
I saw piles of handles waiting new koftgari...I asked if they make handles and they said "why?"..pointing to the box of old ones. :shrug:

It seems that more and more the "first world" is preserving techniques lost or unused in the country of origin...not politically correct, but there it is.

As to a living...in smithing...do architectural work not knives.

Ric

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I could see architectural work paying. Once you use the word "architecture" , or any of its derivatives, cost goes up exponentially.

Ric, maybe you envy some of my experience, but I doubt that you would have enjoyed it very much.

Try a full deep squat, with your bum just scraping the ground, and nothing to sit on except your heels.

Now imagine a bench about 15 inches high.

You maintain this squat for hours on end while working with files, scrapers, cold chisels, and all the other hand tools used to sculpt a keris blade.

A normal working day under these conditions was 7.30AM to 3.30PM with a half hour break for lunch.

These were the working conditions for the keris that I made under Empu Suparman's instruction. It took 16 days working like this to make it.

At the time I learnt from Empu Suparman, he was the only maker of whom we knew who was still using traditional methods. Everybody else was using electric grinders, angle grinders, bench grinders, die grinders---etc, and things like Dremels for the detail work. Some makers were---and still do---put on a traditional work show for visitors, but when the visitors go home, they go back to their real workshop and work standing at a normal bench using electric tools, similar to what any metal worker uses these days.

Ain't no money in tradition , mate, and people have to make a living. Empu Suparman never, ever worked on a commercial basis, and did not sell his work, but gave it away. Of course, there was always a reciprocatory gift.

Empu Suparman was my most important teacher, and eventually I became a part of his family, but other empus and pandai keris have also given me a lot of knowledge.

[Richard Furrer]

Yeah, I could see architectural work paying. Once you use the word "architecture" , or any of its derivatives, cost goes up exponentially.

Ric, maybe you envy some of my experience, but I doubt that you would have enjoyed it very much.

Ain't no money in tradition , mate, and people have to make a living. Empu Suparman never, ever worked on a commercial basis, and did not sell his work, but gave it away. Of course, there was always a reciprocatory gift.

Empu Suparman was my most important teacher, and eventually I became a part of his family, but other empus and pandai keris have also given me a lot of knowledge.

Alan,
There is some solice in pain (says the fat American:) ). ..it can be noble.

I bleed regular when making blades...just did last night after the thing was finished..stupid move on my part.

Alan I have been wondering this for years...do you know if there would be intrest in having some empu, or simply bladesmiths, coming to the US for a period of time to demonstrate? I could host them here in Wisconsin (four hours North of Chicago) and take them to a few gatherings. There have been Japanese smiths, Mexican copper workers, and various European smiths who have done this. I will be hosting some Indian smiths next year.
BUT
All my attempts to get Indonesian smiths here have come to nothing.

Ric

[lemmythesmith]

Hi all! This sounds familiar.... I did seven years working for myself making blades and as a general smith-tradition counts for little, everyone wants stuff as cheap as possible. The only jobs I really made good cash return on were horimono carvings and retempering jobs on old Japanese blades. Wrought ironwork ain't my thing, I don't think I could cope making another spiral staircase! I gave up when the market was flooded with imported gates which retailers could buy for £25, ready made, galvanised and painted.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ric, I'll send you a PM on this question.

Lemmy, yep, cheap rules the day.

Check the price of damascus since India got involved.

Check the price of flannelette shirts since they're made in China.

[P.Abrera]

It seems that more and more the "first world" is preserving techniques lost or unused in the country of origin...not politically correct, but there it is.
Ric

Sad but very true, Ric :)

[ganjawulung]

Hello to everyone!! Here's a little patrem that I've forged from Campo Del Cielo meteorite and old wrought iron with a steel core. The wrongko is thuya burl and the gandar is ebony. Ivory ukiran in the Durga/Dewa Sri/Wadon form. Mendak in sterling silver.
I used 325g of iron salvaged from Windsor Castle after the fire, 190g of Campo meteorite and 90g of Kango (jackhammer chisel) for the steel core. Pamor of 170 or so layers in a "ladder" pattern which has turned out quite reflective, got a little carried away with a complex ricikan which looking back (hindsight is always 20/20!) was a little ambitious, still, I had a lot of fun building it and learned a lot too!! I think I'll steer clear of complex dapor for a while and concentrate on getting the overall shape right!! There wasn't an overall plan for this keris what you see sort of just "happened" with the constituent parts coming together because I liked the style or shape of them, hence the "hybrid" form!!
Dear Lemmy,

Really, it is worth to be included in the next Keris Ensiklopedi... I like your sogokan. Not deep, like the old jalak budo sogokan. Also very good-looking kruwingan. Where is your signature? In the form of rondha?

Ganjawulung

[lemmythesmith]

Hi all! Ganja-many thanks! A jalak budo is on my "to do" list! My signature is more on the peksi, a little stupa.....

[David]

I'm not sure if this is the best thread for this, but it does allow everyone to gawk at Lemmy's work once again.
Here is an interesting video showing the forging process of a keris. I just can't imaging how they did this before power tools. :eek:
http://kerisologi.multiply.com/video/item/4/Pembuatan_Keris_bag.01

[Michel]

A long time ago, I started to forge a kris. I made several error in my forging and ended with a very small blade. To avoid wasting all my efforts, I decided to transform this heat welded blade in a kris patrem. Alan had told us : most of the work in kris forging, in not the forging but chiseling and filing. How right is he. Forging was not more than 5 to 10 % in time.
Once the blade completed (with errors !) I treated it not with acid, but with sulfur and salt and here is the result. I had to make the the necessary sarong and hulu adapted to its size. The total kris is only 23 cm long and the blade 14cm. This is also a lot of filing !
The mendak is the smallest I had in my reserves and I doubt I could find anything smaller even in Jogjakarta.
To work on such a small kris, does not make the work easy. Everything is so small that I have temporarily renounced to the small sculptures decorating the handle.
One thing is certain: my respect for the work of Alan and Lemythesmith has been multiplied by a factor.

[A. G. Maisey]

Not bad Michel, not bad at all. The first keris that I made was made before I ever took instruction from Pak Parman, and its not as good as yours.

The sulphur and salt will not stain a blade, it will only reveal topographic variation in the material. There is a non-arsenic etch that will give a blade some colour, which is sulphur and rice water. I used this a few times more than 50 years ago, but never on a new blade, only on old ones, and it worked more or less OK. I mixed the stuff to a paste and applied it to the blade, then wrapped the blade in plastic sandwich wrap. It took about a week to work.

Something that collectors of both keris and conventional knives do not appreciate or understand is that the work involved in making a good quality small blade is at least as great, possibly greater, than the work involved in making a good quality normal sized blade, and the skill level required is definitely greater. Very good quality small keris blades are frequently more expensive than very good quality normal size blades, and certainly much more scarce, but try selling them on a western market.

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Michel, well done! A nice job-I like the "topographical" effect on the blade, nice shape too. I'm nearly done with another patrem which I've opted for a gongo iras brojol. If you let me know the diameter the mendak needs to be I have made a die for patrem mendak so I can stamp them from one piece-could send you one roughed out in copper if you wish, makes life a wee bit easier :D The patra carvings are not easy to get looking right-my new patrem has a horn Solo hilt and that was a swine to carve, and to get symetrical(ish) :D

[ferrylaki]

Hi Michel, well done! A nice job-I like the "topographical" effect on the blade, nice shape too. I'm nearly done with another patrem which I've opted for a gongo iras brojol. If you let me know the diameter the mendak needs to be I have made a die for patrem mendak so I can stamp them from one piece-could send you one roughed out in copper if you wish, makes life a wee bit easier :D The patra carvings are not easy to get looking right-my new patrem has a horn Solo hilt and that was a swine to carve, and to get symetrical(ish) :D

Hi Michel,
nice small keris you have there. as you mention before, the harder part of keris making is making the detail(recikan) of the keris it self. In making the greneng we often use a very small saw similar to a saw we use on playwood. it is a very time concuming in making the greneng couse the sawing it self need high concentration and skill...

the other harder part is making the sogokan. what did you use for making the sogokan? a small grinder is an option, but it very risky . we some time use a special steel chisel for the sogokan and pijitan work.

About the mendak, we still can find a very small mendak which fit for a patrem here in Jakarta. Not always available but we still can find it.
I recon your keris handle is a little bit larger for the keris. but the warangka is a very nice job...Love your warangka...very nive job, congratulation on your patrem. Let us know if you dicide to make another keris.

Good day,
FERRYLAKI
JAkarta

[A. G. Maisey]

Forget grinders and dremels and such like.

The blade features---sogokan, greneng, blumbangan etc---are most easily and most quickly done by (sogokan) roughing out with a small cold chisel, refining with a scraper, and finishing with jewellers files and rifflers. Greneng is most easily cut with jewellers files. The easiest way to get the right contours in the blade is with a scraper.

Yeah, yeah---I know almost everybody working today uses grinders, but have a close look at the detail sometime, and then look at something that is attributed to Kinom, or one of the other past greats. There is only so much flexibility in a grinder, and it is impossible to cut the correct contours in sogokan with a grinder.

Of course, using non mechanical tools increases working time, and thus increases price, and 99.9% of buyers cannot tell you what the correct contours are anyway, so who is going to pay 5 or 6 times as much for something, if they cannot see any difference between it and something made with a grinder?

It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade.

[Michel]

Hi Alan,
Thank you for your kind words.
Yes, sulfur and salt do not stain properly a blade, the mixture prepared as you explained, using only sulfur and rice water, seems to eat away the weaker metal in my case the iron. the nickel resisting better appears in surface and gives these topographical irregularities. I think the salt is only accelerating the process (it took 24 hours only). I have not utilized rice water, only plain water, and am just wondering why rice water. Nik Rashidin Nick Hussein, who gave me the recipe, told me "rice water" also. I think there is a chemist in the forum, may be he could explain.
I have utilized the recipe on an old blade which was in my eyes completely pamorless with a decent result. I do not know how Henk (of the forum) saw that that blade was with pamor and encourage me to stain it.

Hi Lemythesmith
Thank you also for appreciating my efforts but I am a long way from the quality of your work. My peksi is 4.5 mm in diameter and the hulu is 12 mm diameter at its base. But I do not think that I would be able to adapt a mendak on the base of rought out coper base cup. I am no jeweler and lack that sort of experience and tools.

Hi Ferrylaki,
Thank you for your comments. To answer your questions : my ricikan were all done with files, as the greneng. I do not use a small grinder . As you say: it is too risky. A mistake is so easily done and often cannot be corrected.
You are right, my handle is a bit too big for the size of the keris. And it is the second one. My initial one was even larger and I had to redo it homothetically smaller. I think that my reference, also a patrem, has also a too large handle.
The answer to that is to do a third handle, smaller !
Thank you for suggesting to look in Jakarta for a smaller mendak. Mine is 6mm internal diameter and 15 mm external diameter and my hulu 12 mm. Now if I remake a correct sized handle, I will probably loose an other millimeter or two on the exterior diameter of the base of the hulu, so about 10 mm. Do you really think one can find such a small mendak ? If yes, it can be mailed in an envelop, if I cannot come and fetch it in Jakarta !
I will certainly make other krisses, but slowly ! An other day, I will show you my kris Panjang. An other size !
Thanks to all of you for your advices
Michel

[Henk]

Michel,

A very fine keris you made there.

But i also like the scabbard you made. Can you tell me how you made the tip and what material did you use to make the tip?

[Michel]

Hi Henk,
Thank you for the compliment. The tip is made of vegetable ivory as they call it. In fact it is tagua nut. A nut coming from a palm tree growing in South America. Extremely hard nuts, very similar to ivory hardness that can be cut and filed just as ivory. The nuts are not as large as ivory ! so the pieces you can cut and make with Tagua nuts are small (5 to 8 cm)
I had it come from South America.
Regards
Michel

[ferrylaki]

Forget grinders and dremels and such like.

The blade features---sogokan, greneng, blumbangan etc---are most easily and most quickly done by (sogokan) roughing out with a small cold chisel, refining with a scraper, and finishing with jewellers files and rifflers. Greneng is most easily cut with jewellers files. The easiest way to get the right contours in the blade is with a scraper.

Yeah, yeah---I know almost everybody working today uses grinders, but have a close look at the detail sometime, and then look at something that is attributed to Kinom, or one of the other past greats. There is only so much flexibility in a grinder, and it is impossible to cut the correct contours in sogokan with a grinder.

Of course, using non mechanical tools increases working time, and thus increases price, and 99.9% of buyers cannot tell you what the correct contours are anyway, so who is going to pay 5 or 6 times as much for something, if they cannot see any difference between it and something made with a grinder?

It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade.


I'm planning to buy a grinder for my keris project, but as Alan mention before about grinder fact, I guess a cold steel chisel would be just fine. spending more hours for the ricikan is the best way to make keris just like the old times.

people nowdays use grinder to shape the " odo odo" and the " gigir sapi"
and the result is more damage for biginers .
"It takes about 40 hours for a skilled craftsman to cut correct sogokan to only one side of a blade" as Alan said...than I must practice my patience first before I start working on my sogokan...couse if dont have patience you could destroy an entirely job on the ricikan. I found "no way back" on the ricikan job.

As an information Michel. I'm also trying a small mendak for my keris, it's not a patrem but its smaller than a normal keris...hope a manage to find two or three so I can offfer my spare for you... good day every body...

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

[A. G. Maisey]

Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type.

You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone.

The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat.

You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them.

The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge.

The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.

[ferrylaki]

Ferry, you most definitely do not need a grinder of any type.

You can rough out with a hacksaw and a big file, and then you can cut the contours with a scraper (skrap). To do the rough contour work a big scraper that is use by motor mechanics that you can buy from a hardware shop is OK, but for the detail work you must make your own scrapers by grinding a radius onto the end of a small three sided file. You then sharpen this on a whetstone.

The cold chisels you need you do not buy from a shop, you need to make these. Old round files are the best material. You forge the point and then re-heat treat.

You need a lot of scrapers and cold chisels, because they get blunt pretty quick, and the more you have, the less you need to interrupt your work to sharpen them.

The cold chisel you use to cut the outline of the sogokan need only be between 3 and 5 mili across the cutting edge.

The grinders used by current top makers are die grinders, as well as the usual flex shafts, dremels and angle grinders, but even with a die grinder you cannot get the correct contour for a sogokan. If you are highly skilled you can get it close, but you still need to do the final shaping and finishing by hand.


Hi Alan,
Thanks Alot for your advices. I found it very very difficult on shaping the greneng. We use a small jeweller saw here. and always manage to break the saw. I'll try using hack saw and small round files on the greneng.
I'll take some pictures on the keris we're working and some measures of the keris. Thank you for every advices.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

[A. G. Maisey]

A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.

[ferrylaki]

A piercing saw (small jewellers saw) is too difficult to control to cut the greneng. The biggest difficulty with the greneng is making sure the shape is exactly the same on both sides of the gonjo. With a file you can cut as near as you can the same, then just deepen the more shallow side a little to make it the same as the other one. You cannot do this with a piercing saw. You do not use a hacksaw to cut the greneng, you draw your shape with a scriber---draw it less than the size you want it to finish--- then you cut it from start to finish with jewellers files.There will be a rough edge on the outside of the cut when you finish, you must be very careful not to alter the shape of the greneng when you smooth away this roughness. You can polish the inside of the cuts with wet and dry paper wrapped around a sate stick. The main thing is to work very carefully and think before you cut---make sure you have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want to produce. This is the hardest thing in the whole process:- getting the clear mental picture of the form that will carry the feeling you are trying to generate.


This keris is the first project which start to take its shape.
the picture took this morning ( 05.40am jakarta time) .
the greneng work done using small jewellers saw, done by a very skilled man for sure. when I find the fact using small jewellers saw is too diffficult to do, I start looking for another method for the greneng work. I really greatfull for Alan's suggestion. I'll try it on my next keris project. I'm still looking a suitable dhapur and ricikan style for this "saton" . A straight keris it gonna be , for a beginner like my self tilam upih would be great. I'm planning to make a PBX style...thick blade, odo-odo, etc.
Just cant wait till next week to start.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

[A. G. Maisey]

How about tilam sari? You can give it a little bit of pizzazz without trying for more than you are capable of.

The absolute first brick you need to lay is the blade angle. Get that right and the rest will follow.

[ferrylaki]

How about tilam sari? You can give it a little bit of pizzazz without trying for more than you are capable of.

The absolute first brick you need to lay is the blade angle. Get that right and the rest will follow.

Hi Alan,
the angel your talking about, the condong leleh.
I have a feeling that my saton has too much angel. this is a kelengan keris.
tilam sari would be great. thanks

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep, condong lelehnya too bent forward, like a sick old man.

You can fix this when you set the blade angle---probably.

You just cut the angle at the blade base to give you the proper angle for the blade, but you will still need to go back to the fire to set the pesi right. Just make sure you don't deprive yourself of enough material to give it a good wadidang. Actually, this saton looks like its had a bit too much attention in the forge, that pesi does not look as if it is big enough to give a good solid pesi.At this point the pesi should be square and much oversize.But it doesn't matter all that much, you can always work to the pesi and make sure you don't lose anything.

[ferrylaki]

Yep, condong lelehnya too bent forward, like a sick old man.

You can fix this when you set the blade angle---probably.

You just cut the angle at the blade base to give you the proper angle for the blade, but you will still need to go back to the fire to set the pesi right. Just make sure you don't deprive yourself of enough material to give it a good wadidang. Actually, this saton looks like its had a bit too much attention in the forge, that pesi does not look as if it is big enough to give a good solid pesi.At this point the pesi should be square and much oversize.But it doesn't matter all that much, you can always work to the pesi and make sure you don't lose anything.

The problem at the moment is I cant find any besalen to adjust the angel.
so the next project must be changed to this keris. This keris has already took its shape. Most of the shaping worked by my brother, and a grinder was involved. We're now trying not to use grinder no more. files and hecksaw is an option.
I'll post another pictures for further progress on this keris. :)
hope we can make a healthy shape for this one. this is a kelengan ( pamor less keris )
the gonjo may be too small ... but it already took shape.I cant go back with the gonjo, so its done. filing and sharpening would be our next time consuming job.

FERRYLAKI
JAkarta

[A. G. Maisey]

Ferry, this blade needs to be refined by using scrapers. There is no more work for a hacksaw here, and the rough shaping has already been done, so there is limited work for a file. What you need now is to use scrapers to do the kruwingan and refine all the contours.

There are plenty of smiths in and around Solo. Just take the forging back there and alter the angle.Make sure you have your blak with you.

[ferrylaki]

Ferry, this blade needs to be refined by using scrapers. There is no more work for a hacksaw here, and the rough shaping has already been done, so there is limited work for a file. What you need now is to use scrapers to do the kruwingan and refine all the contours.

There are plenty of smiths in and around Solo. Just take the forging back there and alter the angle.Make sure you have your blak with you.

Alan, can you discribe what a scraper looks like?
does sandpaper could become a scraper?
do you have a picture of scraper?
sorry for my lack of knowledge...

FERRYLAKI
Jakarta

[A. G. Maisey]

Ferry, if you go into a hardware store, or motor mechanics supply store and ask for a "skrap", they will show you a scraper that mechanics use to fit engine bearings. This is the large, commercially produced scraper you can see in the photos. This is a useful size to work the length of the blade and to rough out the kruwingan.

The other smaller scrapers have been made from three corner files. You can buy second hand ones from the junk markets. You just use a grinder to grind a radius onto the end of the file, and then sharpen it on a whetstone.

The funny looking bent tools are riffle files. You need these for refining the various contours. These files here are Dick files from Germany, which probably cost a king's ransom these days---I haven't bought any for maybe 10 years or more and the last one I bought cost me more than $50. However, you can buy Chinese ones in Indonesia. They're not as good, they do not last as long, but they can do the job, and they are much, much cheaper.

The chisels and gouges are made from old files and other tools, and a few are made from 01 tool steel. You use these to begin the shape of a feature and to remove big quantities of metal. They are not used for fine work.

The other tools I have use to make keris, and that are not shown here are normal small jewellers files, a 6" file, and big heavy 15" file, a hacksaw, and a small hammer. The hacksaw and big file are only used in the initial shaping stage.

Using only these tools, this is what can be produced:-

http://kerisattosanaji.com/PBXIImaisey2.html

[ferrylaki]

Ferry, if you go into a hardware store, or motor mechanics supply store and ask for a "skrap", they will show you a scraper that mechanics use to fit engine bearings. This is the large, commercially produced scraper you can see in the photos. This is a useful size to work the length of the blade and to rough out the kruwingan.

The other smaller scrapers have been made from three corner files. You can buy second hand ones from the junk markets. You just use a grinder to grind a radius onto the end of the file, and then sharpen it on a whetstone.

The funny looking bent tools are riffle files. You need these for refining the various contours. These files here are Dick files from Germany, which probably cost a king's ransom these days---I haven't bought any for maybe 10 years or more and the last one I bought cost me more than $50. However, you can buy Chinese ones in Indonesia. They're not as good, they do not last as long, but they can do the job, and they are much, much cheaper.

The chisels and gouges are made from old files and other tools, and a few are made from 01 tool steel. You use these to begin the shape of a feature and to remove big quantities of metal. They are not used for fine work.

The other tools I have use to make keris, and that are not shown here are normal small jewellers files, a 6" file, and big heavy 15" file, a hacksaw, and a small hammer. The hacksaw and big file are only used in the initial shaping stage.

Using only these tools, this is what can be produced:-

http://kerisattosanaji.com/PBXIImaisey2.html

wow, so many tools...
I really should complete my tools.
people these days depend on a grinder and replace the old method of keris making.
I'll try to find those tools from now on.
thank you very much for these helpfull pictures Alan.
I really appreciate your kindness.

FERRYLAKI
Jakarta

[A. G. Maisey]

Ferry, that's only a few of my tools, I just picked up a handful out of the drawer to use as examples, I've probably got about 20 various scrapers, about three times as many rifflers I've shown, more of everything. In fact you need a lot, because things get blunt, and if you're constantly stopping to sharpen tools it slows things down too much. When Pak Parman passed on, one of the things he left me was his tools. I've never used them, so they are just as he had them on the last day he worked. I'll post a pic of these tools one day when I get around to it.

[Tim Simmons]

Tools are so universal. Here are a few of mine. I only use the wood handled scorpa tools when cutting detail {textures like animal fur} back into metal when the casting sprue has been removed or if the cast has not quite taken fine detail in places.

[ferrylaki]

Tools are so universal. Here are a few of mine. I only use the wood handled scorpa tools when cutting detail {textures like animal fur} back into metal when the casting sprue has been removed or if the cast has not quite taken fine detail in places.

I figure out there's still a very long way to gather those tools.
jewellers saw, skraper, files, wheatstone, hachsaw atc atc...
wow ... so many of them, thanks for sharing all these knowledge with me.
.

FERRYLAKI
JAKARTA

[Montino Bourbon]

Loved the finished product!

Now, I need lessons!

[Mumtazb]

Amazing work...how long have you been smithing Graham? I saw over on BB that you're from Wigan...I'm from Bury....would love to see some of your work in person, if possible.

[ThePepperSkull]

amazing work, Graham, amd very interesting discussion!

"a lot of people want it, but who is prepared to pay the price?" Very true, even in my case I'm ashamed to say. Having had talks with Graham a few months back regarding a commission, then realizing the cost was staggering to me at first. Reading more into this subject, however, leads me to believe it is worth such a price.

This has also sparked more interest my desire of learning the process in which a Keris is made. I've been working/volunteering with a few blacksmiths, as well as professional knifemakers in order to gain a level of familiarity with the tools of the trade and plan (in the very very distant future when I'm comfortable with my skills) to find somewhere in Indonesia, much like Alan has, to further my skills by learning how to make keris (as well as the cultural traditions behind it). Perhaps also Malaysia, where their tradition of Keris Sundang making is apparantly still alive (although not thriving unfortunately). Of course, I would see this also as an academic endeavor (as opposed to attempting to make a living out of it) but with a slightly different purpose.

My eventual study will involve the development of the Moro style kris and how its journey from Java to Mindanao has affected its design. Particularly its early incarnations from the 18th century when the Kris Sundang from the Sulu Sultanate still exhibited the meticulous level of craftsmanship of its javanese predecessor. Later designs, I find, were more crude in terms of sculpting and chiseling of the blade's sor-soran area while its focus shifted onto crafting a broader, more hefty slashing-battle oriented blade. I always found it a shame that the balance between the two was never maintained as time had passed.

I think that to gain a more profound understanding of the Moro Kris that my ancestors have so frequently used in history, it is imperative for me to gain an acceptable in-depth knowledge on (not only the fabrication process, but the traditions behind) its predecessor, the Javanese Keris. Reading posts in this forum and gaining knowledge from textbooks regarding the Javanese Keris has further enriched my appreciation for the it as the profound cultural artwork it is, as opposed to just as the blueprint for another culture's weapon as I had once percieved it. It (The keris) is not, as I once thought, just a chapter of a book to flip through to get to the end -- it is quite a meaty story in and of itself!

Alan, I may send you a Private Message soon regarding Keris making appreticeship as I am very much interested.

[GIO]

I am astonished in front of the skill of British smiths. My compliments !
On the other hand I made a reflection: if a good smith can forge a kris of such a level, what is left of the charming mistery of an Eastern weapon whose origins date back hundreds of years and the asimmetric form of which still is an unresolved question. It is more or less as if somebody could forge a sword with the same characteristics of a sword made by the great Japanese masters like Masamune or Yoshihiro. If so only antique or historically important specimen would mantain a certain "spiritual" value.

I would like now to tell what happened to me some ten years ago, in Liverpool.
I visited the shop of an antique arms dealer, and I told him that I used to collect kris. At this point he showed me a kris blade, made by a friend of him, and I almost did not believe this story. The kris was Bali style, and if I well remember without the ganja (too difficult, maybe ? Or the smith did not have interest in completing his work, having already demonstrated his skill ?)
Unfortunately I did not investigate any more and I had no more opportunity to go to Liverpool. :(

[GIO]

I posted a comment on this subject, but my text went another part, I don't know where :(

[GIO]

Please apologize,all is OK :o

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Gio, I'm glad you like my work!! The shop you visited in Liverpool would have been my friend's shop-the keris you handled was one I made many years ago in a mixture of styles. I think it did have a gongo but in my ignorance I soldered it to the blade, the keris was never finished before my friend took it in part exchange for a nice gendaito by Ichihara Nagamitsu. Small world huh? :D

P.S I'm much better at making Japanese blades than I am at making keris :p

[GIO]

Hi Lemmy,
Yes, small world !
Now I would like to see one of your swords. Could you post a photo ?
Are you a professional smith (or, better, artist) or only a hobbist ?
Pleased having met you here. :)

[David]

Hi Lemmy,
Yes, small world !
Now I would like to see one of your swords. Could you post a photo ?
Are you a professional smith (or, better, artist) or only a hobbist ?
Pleased having met you here. :)
If you mean one of his Japanese swords i am afraid that this forum is not the place for that. Maybe you could exchange emails or perhaps Lemmy has a website you could visit. :)

[GIO]

Hi David,
OK, you are right.

[cedric Le Dauphin]

Hi! Graham.,

Congratulations for the work, I’m very impressed.
I know that it might be of less interest for the steel men, but can you post closer pics of the handle you carved.
I’d love also to know how was your process of carving the ivory, the kind of ivory you chose etc,

best regards Cedric

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Cedric, the ivory is antique elephant that I managed to get hold of long before the current ban. I tend to carve with a dremel with small burr cutters to "rough out" then refine and carve smaller detail with a sghian dubh I made from a scrap of damascus. Here's the photo of the hilt.

Regards, Graham.

[ganjawulung]

...the ivory is antique elephant that I managed to get hold of long before the current ban. I tend to carve with a dremel with small burr cutters to "rough out" then refine and carve smaller detail with a sghian dubh I made from a scrap of damascus. Here's the photo of the hilt.

Hi marvelous Graham...
I really like your workmanship. Beautiful "durga hilt"... And I hope these pictures below may inspire your next work. Three styles of old "durga hilts" -- two Cirebon style and one Balinese style...

GANJAWULUNG