Ivory hilt dagger with "Tears" and a "Smiley?" [Archive]

Jens Nordlunde

29th July 2007, 09:30 AM

Gene, nice Zirah-bhonk, nice pictures:).

The blades can be of different lengths, Stone writes that the blade shown in his book is 6.5 inch’s.

In Indian and Oriental Armour by Lord Egerton of Tatton, I found this in a note on page 138, under #717. “The Z.S. Collection [Musee de Tzarskoe-Selo du Collection D’Armes, St. Petersborg, Russia. It seems as if there are three of these daggers in the collection, but only one is shown in a drawing]. ‘Zirah-bhonk’ (mail piercer) knife of fine Damascus steel, short with a conical point. It is used for piercing through the rings of a coat of mail. One of these knifes is hollowed out along the back, and the grove filled with small pearls which runs backwards and forwards in handling the weapon. It is said en Persian poetry that they represent the tears of the wounded.

In a dagger at the Soltykoff Collection [a Russian prince], there is a grove in the blade filled with a number of small rubies, so that when the dagger is raised the stones glitter like drops of blood. India is perhaps of all countries that which has endowed cruelty with the utmost grace (Industrial Arts, Burty).

The handle of these knives is usually of walrus-tooth ivory which is preferred to that of the elephant as being less likely to split.“

Anthony C. Tirri in Islamic Weapons shows one, on page 214 #151 and writes Persian/North Indian, but only Stone gives a measure of the blade. I do remember having seen one or two with rather big blades, but I think most of the blades were moderate in size.

In Memorials from the Jaypore Exhibition 1883 by Hendley. You can see the same type of knife, the hilt is ivory, this knife was made by a Jaypore armourer, and was sent to the exhibition from the Jaypore armoury (Jaypore/Jeypore/Jaipur was also called Amber). Lt.-colonel Thomas Holbein Hendly had many good friends amongst the Maharajas in Rajasthan, and one of them was Maharaja Madho Singh of Jaypore – at the time of the exhibition the Maharaja was in his twenties. I have seen his data given to 1880-1922, but I am uncertain of, if this is his birth-death dates, or the time he ruled.

Your dagger has Persian influence, but I believe it to be Indian, and this tells us that a likely place to look for its origin will be, Rajasthan, Punjab or, maybe even towards NW frontier, but not to the south. The hilt is interesting, and the bearings/balls running at the back of the hilt is unusual. Congratulations Gene – and don’t forget to enjoy the day:).

Mare Rosu

29th July 2007, 01:22 PM

Well now I have got the name for my dagger (at least two spellings )
( CharlesS and Jens)and found out that there are other daggers with the "C' cut,(Kronckew, thank you all.
You know when Jens talks everyone listens (or should). His postings are, in my opinion, some of the best going!. His post on my dagger is just outstanding.
Now after I have said that about Jens I now will tell you that my "new" dagger has three pol reversals on it's 5" blade!! I just hope Jens will not start to ask his, noted for, hard questions about the Magnetic properties of the blade. ;) I hesitate to say this but will take pictures of the blade with three compasses (I still have my supply :) ) on the blade and post them here,showing all three needles point in a different direction from it's neighbor compass. This is just to show that it exist on this dagger as the thinking behind it is explained in Jens Classic post on Magnetic properties.
Kronckew, can you take a picture of the "C" on you kard? perhaps we can get an answer as to it's purpose and why it was used.
Gene (having a great day)

Jens Nordlunde

29th July 2007, 02:59 PM

Thanks for the nice words Gene, but you are way too kind, all I did was to look in some of my books and add a few words:o.

I have had a look in the books I have on Persian arms – no Zirah-Bhonk. This is strange, as Stone writes it is Persian, but maybe he was mistaken. I did however find one somewhat similar in ‘Weapons of the Islamic World’, it is a catalogue made for an exhibition at The Islamic Gallery in King Faisal Foundation Centre, Riyadh, 1991, page 97 #96. If the text on the picture can’t be read, here it is. ‘An Indian dagger decorated in Johar flakes. The blade and the hilt are both gilded in Kashmiri style. Indian XIVth century A.H. (19th century AD).

kronckew

29th July 2007, 03:42 PM

hi mare,

here's an overall picture, you can make out the 'C' fairly well.
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Kard003.png

here's a closeup
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Kard001.png

(the 'ethnographic' arms at the top of the picture belong to Millie (aka. Balto Millenium), my irish 45mph couch potato)

Jens Nordlunde

29th July 2007, 04:25 PM

I have seen the ’C’ (smiley) before, but mostly they are not so far down the hilt, those i have seen are almost as if they are a rest to the little finger, but it can not be so in this case – or the little finger must have been veeery big. Even more so, that it on Gene’s hilt is marked with a colour. It does have a meaning, or they would not have made it, but I have a blank spot I am afraid. I am however looking forward to a picture of the magnetic fields. Gene, I was afraid you had sold your collection of compasses after the last big test;).

Come to think of it Gene, is there any decoration at the base of the blade? I don’t know how many balls there are supposed to be, but how many are there in your hilt? The shut seems to be rather big, can the balls fall out?

Mare Rosu

29th July 2007, 06:22 PM

Kronckew, great pictures you posted, like you dog also, being a dog nut, what breed is it?.
The "Smiley" on your kard is about the same place as it is on mine.
Not in the "pinkie" finger area that Jens has seen before.
I have never seen that cut on a hilt before and hope some of the forum folks Could shed some more light on it. Wounder if it is a maker's mark?
Jens the dark area inside the "smiley" cleaned off as it was just dirt. Used Ren Wax and it came off.
I also did a quick clean on the blade and an acid etch. Found what I think is a temper line on the blade (see pictures), but nothing else, the crucible steel pattern did show up rather nicely though. You can also see a forging crack on the blade.
Jens the slot for the balls/tears is rather large but the ball will not come out and there are 12 steel balls in the slot. I, at first counted 13 but did a recount and there are 12, no Jens one did not fall out.
Anyone got any idea how the ball were placed in the slots?

kronckew

29th July 2007, 08:23 PM

hi mare,
caution thread veer ahead:

Millie is a retired NGC greyhound, she raced up till 2004 and was a grade A1 just before she was injured and stopped racing (she won her next to last race at 10:1 & made her owner a bundle, then hurt her foot next race when another dog collided with her. i adopted her a few months later to be a companion for me and my other (male) greyhound, Blue - a blue brindle)
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gladius/assets/images/a_blue_ribbon2_DCE.jpg
Blue was found as a stray puppie & i've had him since he was 10Mo. - he's never raced.
Both on the spare bed: (both are about 65lb each of pure muscle)
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gladius/assets/images/BlueMillieSig.jpg

end of thread veer zone: we now return you to our normally scheduled subject.

re the balls: i suspect that the channel was cut into the grip, the balls added then the metal cover was set into the grip to retain them. clever craftsmanship could have notched the recess in the ivory such that a slightly sprung hooked area on the retainer clicked into place without need of cement...

kai

30th July 2007, 08:46 AM

Hello Gene,

Just as an aside: the magnetic field seems to follow the blades curve - is it possible that the (relatively) low forging temperature of wootz allows an original ingot to remain magnetized? That still wouldn't explain the reversal though!

I know that a magnetized steel needle becomes depolarized when heated to glowing red - what about dendritic steel though? Need to pull out my compass and test another recurved blade...

Regards,
Kai

Jens Nordlunde

30th July 2007, 04:42 PM

Nice kard you have Kronckew, and you are right, it is the same type of smiley. Do you have any idea; even a guess would do at this time, of what the meaning can be? I believe the channel in which the balls run must have been made finished before the balls were entered. If the front had been more open in a place, and when the balls were in place had to be hammered back in place, it could easily have happened that the part being hammered at could/would have been hammered a bit too much down, and spoil the running of the balls. To my opinion the place where the balls were entered must be hidden by one of the grip shells.

Well Gene, you surely have a nice collection of compasses as well as weapons, and you are a specialist in finding blades with a multiply of poles:). Do you demand a compass reading before you buy, or do you make the test when you have the weapon? It looks rather confusing, and maybe Kai is onto something, but on the other hand, I thought that iron/steel would loose the magnetism then you hit it. It is some time ago I read this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=292 (showthread.php?t=292) but the answer to the question should be hidden in one of the posts.

rand

30th July 2007, 05:41 PM

Fascinating posts,

Jens, what a well researched reply, was a pleasure to read.

Am I correct that the compass's point towards the thickest part of the blade is, namesly the tip and the bolsa?

rand

Jens Nordlunde

30th July 2007, 09:47 PM

Thank you Rand, but like I wrote to Gene, it was only a few books and a little time. I know/understand, unfortunately, very little about the magnetism, but lodestone fascinates me – the time span it has been known and used, and the believes in this metal – fascinates me.

When it comes to the compass reading please ask Gene:p.

Mare Rosu

31st July 2007, 07:30 PM

Kronckew;
Very nice dogs you have, say hi to Millie and Blue for me.
I probed the inside of the slot wit a dentist tool and could not find any protrusion on the slot walls. The only seam on the chamber holding the steel ball is on the upper blade end of the chamber, it is one piece until it get to other end where the small "ring" is attached between the two wings of the hilt.

Kai;
You are correct on the magnetic field following the blade contour;see photograph. If anyone hasn't done so yet, you need to read Jens "Classic" post on "Magnetic Weapons" http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=292
Get a pot of coffee or any other type of adult beverage and start finding about magnetic weapons. :p

Jens;
My supply of compasses will come in handy if I ever start a survival class ;)
Do you think that my "magnetic" personalty has anything to do with my daggers? Could be now :D

Rand;
I agree with you on Jen's postings he is very astute and knowledgeable and he will share that with other folks, all very good traits, I say.
Yes you are also correct on you observation on the needle points on the dagger. Also see the pictures.

Jens I a not trying to rehash you Magnetic Weapons post but did want to show anyone new about this dagger. I am now an expert on using iron fillings ;)

Gene

Jens Nordlunde

31st July 2007, 09:42 PM

Gene, you are not only good at using iron fillings, you also take very good pictures. I have tried using iron fillings, but it was quite a mess, so I gave it up. I am really not quite sure how to read your compasses or you iron filling pictures, so I will have to go back to the original thread and start reading it again. Thank you for the pictures.
Do I see a bird at the base of the blade?

Mare Rosu

1st August 2007, 12:49 AM

Yes Jens there is a bird on each side of the dagger.
I know your are a "Flower" person ;) but can you, or anyone else tell me the identity/type of bird it is? Looks like a long bill Raven to me :D
Thanks for the kind words on my pictures.
Gene

rand

1st August 2007, 07:02 AM

Gene,

The picture showing the magnetic fields relating to the blade is fascinating.

Regarding the bird, I believe the peacock was the pet of the God of War, so that may be a good choice...... Makes a good story anyway.

rand

kronckew

1st August 2007, 10:58 AM

my initial impression is also a peacock

Jens Nordlunde

1st August 2007, 05:00 PM

I would have said a raven, but after having read Rand's and Kronckew's posts, and having had another look at the bird, I think it may be a peacock after all, due to the way the tail feathers are made. Besides from being a royal bird, and a pet of the God of war, the peacock is a very good watch bird and will make a lot of noice if intruders try to get in where they have nothing to do.

rand

1st August 2007, 10:15 PM

Its also interesting that the bird is chiseled into the bolsa and the work on it matches the cut out for the tears of the wounded. Looks like the same tools marks to me.

rand

Jens Nordlunde

1st August 2007, 10:29 PM

Yes Rand, in this case it is, most likely, that the same man made the whole knife - interesting.

rand

2nd August 2007, 06:58 AM

Found and article about the magnetic field in wootz... based on a 16th Persian dagger purchased from Leo Figiel...

http://home.clara.net/andywrobertson/dsl_issue01_02_dagger.html

rand

kronckew

2nd August 2007, 07:45 AM

the graphic mag plot appears to be a fractal much like this mandelbrot plot.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/mandel.png

chaos theory in action....

Andrew

2nd August 2007, 02:31 PM

Found and article about the magnetic field in wootz... based on a 16th Persian dagger purchased from Leo Figiel...

http://home.clara.net/andywrobertson/dsl_issue01_02_dagger.html

rand

That article contains some terms I am unfamiliar with: "Yesodic entities", "the Darks", "Briahtic structures".

kronckew

2nd August 2007, 03:28 PM

Have a look at the related web page: HERE (http://home.clara.net/andywrobertson/dsl_issue01_01_yesodicearly.html)

looks a bit piscatorial to me. someone forgot to take their meds and hasn't properly grounded their tinfoil hat. or they're trying to apply some serious traction to our legs.....

i like the kard in the illustration which is NOT the one in the article, just 'similar'

:D :D

i have a related question: how do you spell 'spoof' ?

Mare Rosu

3rd August 2007, 08:15 PM

Man, go away for a day or two and looks what happens to this thread! ;)
Starting at the top and working down.

Rand; Kronckew; Jens, Thank you for the bird (be careful now) information, so we now all agree it is a Peacock.

Rand, just where in the world? did you come up with that story on Figiel's blade? some strange information.
only to be toped by Kronckew post on the even more stranger information!

Andrew at least you got your information about the meanings of those words, so did I, I just hope you understand it better than I do, which is not at all :confused:

"At some point, far in the past, cross-Domain contact between Yesod and Briah was established. This may be a natural phenomenon or may be (hard as it is to believe) the result of an intelligent manipulation of natural laws by the Darks."
Hard to believe?? He sure got that right, man, that is some heavy stuff going on here.
I think Rivkin needs to post, and tell us just what is going on with all of this
stuff ;)
I thank (I think) Rand and Kronckew for the information, I just need to lay down for awhile.
Gene

rand

3rd August 2007, 08:27 PM

Hey Gene,

Came across that Far Field Figiel Dagger page on the net quite by accident when researching square kufic calligraphy and comapring 16th century work to 18 century work, just happened to be following this thread by coincidence and posted a link to it.

There does remain the possiblitiy that some blades have a magnetic field from the type of forging process. We could use an expert in this field here....

The dark stuff is very far fetched...

Magnetically charged yours with multidirectional opposed fields,

"What is the name given to describe the phenomenon in which there are dimensional changes associated with the magnetization of a material such as Fe, Ni, Co, etc.
Magnetostriction.:"

rand

"Luke, come to the dark side" lol (Star Wars)

rand

5th August 2007, 08:58 PM

Jens Nordlunde

5th August 2007, 09:25 PM

Rand, does this mean that you think this dagger is likely to come from the NNW, rather than from Persia - I do, but I can't prove it yet.
Yes, there are errors in Stone as well as in Egerton, but they have given us a lot of knowledge as well, and writing books like they did, without errors would be almost impossible, even to day, as many of the 'newer' books also have errors.

rand

5th August 2007, 09:55 PM

hey Jens,

I see Indian work written all over this dagger. Look at the wootz, its dense and grey, a flambouyant armor piercing blade, the chisel work on the bird with triangular edges.

You will find this type dagger categorized many times as Indian and not so often as Persian. Although I do believe there are Persian exaamples too. The Persian asthetics are more refined and less opulant.

This in no way is to take away from this dagger, its a very desirable item.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this dagger have Indian elephant ivory for the grip scales? If it does that would be another indication of Mughal taste.

Oh Jen, have found more examples of that chevron design similar to your tulwar on armor, most of it 16th -17th century. There is also some sumptuous Russian armor with the chevron designs. Persia lost Armenia and the Caucasus to Russia in the 19th century so you can see how it becomes harder and harder to say something is from somewhere.

Brian...are you reading this? Whats your opinion?

The simple designs tend to be early and the Persian work a less is more attitude, where as Mughal work can tend to be more is better. Can be a reflection of the need and desire for individualism.

Hope you find a treasure during you travels Jen,

rand

Mare Rosu

5th August 2007, 11:18 PM

Rand, Jens:
More great information coming from you folks :)
Rand you think it may be Elephant Ivory on the dagger? Can you or Jens or anyone else,tell me what to look for in trying to determine just what kind of Ivory it is. Could it be bone even? I may be able to take a close up of the "wings" if that would help.
Gene

Jens Nordlunde

6th August 2007, 01:06 PM

Gene, yes I believe the grip scales to be elephant ivory, and not walrus ivory like they mostly used for these knives. One thing which you must remember, if you buy anything of ivory abroad, and that is to ask the seller to get a CITES certificate. If you don’t have such a certificate you can be in deep trouble and risk to get the item confiscated.

Rand, the scales sure look like ivory to me – does not make the dagger ant worse.
Maybe we should discuss the zigzag/chevron thing in PM’s or maybe on another thread, not to muddy the waters too much:).

rand

7th August 2007, 06:52 AM

Indian elephant ivory stays white, fine grained

African elephant ivory turns yellow then brown, fine grained

Walrus ivory (shirmani) turns yellow then brown, mottled or granular

rand

Jens Nordlunde

7th August 2007, 01:41 PM

Here in an example, and yes, they did import ivory from Africa.

David

7th August 2007, 02:08 PM

That article contains some terms I am unfamiliar with: "Yesodic entities", "the Darks", "Briahtic structures".

Andrew, these are Qabalistic terms, though i don't quite grasp how or why he is using these in this article as i have merely skimmed it for the terms. Briah refers to one of the 4 Qabalistic worlds, the world of creation. Yesod is one of the 10 (or 11 ;)) spheres on the Tree of Life, the 9th sphere, one level up from our material world of Malkuth. :)

Mare Rosu

7th August 2007, 10:08 PM

Rand, the information on the different types of Ivory is much appreciated.

Jens would you please tell me what I am looking at/for, in your last picture? Which one is which?

David much needed information, now I am a little (very little) less confused.

Folks I am going to take the dagger to an handle material expert tomorrow.
I will let you know what I find out from them. These folks sell all types of handle material to the knife trade including ivory. There business is located only a few miles away. Stay tuned!
Gene

rand

7th August 2007, 10:17 PM

Hey Gene,

I lean towards thinking the grip scales are Indian elephant ivory because they are staying white...

rand

PS...nice daggers posted there Jens

spiral

8th August 2007, 12:15 AM

Rand, i have read much knowledge & wisdom in your posts but I must say the colour of ivory is based on enviroment & food during the elephants life, Africa is a big place, with lots of variations, large grain, small grain, many colours & tones from each area, jungle or dry region, food a plenty or famine. The same is true on a lesser scale in India & Burma

The regional variation are more accurate than the continental as used to be shown by the prices realised for the old Liverpool & Antwerp ivory auctions.

But far beyond that each tusk was from a living breathing animal with its own life history that far outways the usual antique dealers generalitys one sees trotted out when it comes to fineness of grain, colour & more importantly texture & resiliance , which of course is what the carvers were looking for.

Spiral

rand

8th August 2007, 02:30 AM

Hey Spiral,

I yield to a more informed opinion and would like to hear more about the color of ivory as it relates directly as part of a puzzle wher you add the sum of all the parts to determine what the whole is. My knowledge of ivory is more general from a collecting and study perspective of arms n' armor and not from a study of ivory. This is an area I would certainly like to know more. Maybe a seperate posting as not to deviate from the course of this thread.

The use ivory is seen particularly from the late 16th century on in Islamic countries. Also on a similar topic would be bone, different bones were also used and they had a couple hundred grades of it from what I have read.

Stag horn was more popular in the 16th century and seems to be one the the earlier forms material used for grip scales.

Am sure trade routes were a cause and effect and as Empires changed habds so did the trade routes and the tax base gleened from that.

Thanks again Spiral,

rand

josh stout

8th August 2007, 03:00 PM

Here in an example, and yes, they did import ivory from Africa.

Is it Walrus on the left and African elephant on the right?
Josh

Jens Nordlunde

8th August 2007, 05:11 PM

Thank you for your answer, but I have never seen walrus ivory look like this before, so I will try to get it checked by a specialist.

rand

8th August 2007, 06:23 PM

Hey Jens,

From my perspective the dagger on the left would be African elephant ivory and the dagger on the right Indian elephant ivory. would agree they are not walrus ivory as the do no have that "crystaline" appearance at all. Rather a smooth "woodlike' on the dagger grip scales to the left and a milk white appearance to the dagger grip scales on the right.

The use of walrus ivory is very much to the Persian taste. Then, there are exceptions to every rule...

rand

spiral

8th August 2007, 09:02 PM

If only I knew enough to make a seperate thread worthwhile Rand. ;) I am just a student myself...

Much ivory coloring is just surface patina or induced through, age & dirt & sweat, tea, smoke ,chicory were often used to colour items or the Chinese favorite for turning it yellow is nose sweat!

Hard heavy white ivory of good quality came from Guinea, cameroons ,Gabon & the Congo. It is what many antique dealers refer to as Indian as it has the same percieved look and qualities of jungle dwelling Elephants of India & Burma. It is the favorite of Oriental carvers as it will polish like glass.

Soft ivory is sometimes veined with darker streaks & used to mainly come from Senegal,Ethiopia, Egypt, Sudan & Kenya. It was popular for Billiard balls & piano keys as it was easy to work.

ill have a look through my libary & notes & see what else I can find on the subject.

Spiral

Jens Nordlunde

8th August 2007, 09:44 PM

Spiral, I have not as yet been able to ask someone about the ivory, but I have examined it myself, and i am sure that it is elephant ivory. You only had the picture. I have the item, and that makes a difference when it comes to judging the hilt. Any new things you can come up with about the ivory will be most appreciated, as I think what you have come up with yet is great.

Jens

spiral

8th August 2007, 11:13 PM

I made no comment about yours nice looking knives Jen, :shrug: Just about ivory in general.

I can see the one on the top of the left one is probably Elephant, I cant see enough detail of one on the right to be sure but I think your probably correct. I couldnt be certan from those pix, so I passed no comment.

The end grain should show intersecting diagonaly curved lines under a lens if Elephant or mammoth.

And changing stripes of refraced light on the long gain if turned fore & aft in sunlight.

cheers,

Spiral

Mare Rosu

8th August 2007, 11:28 PM

Hi all, just got back from the dealer in hilt material ( Mother of Pearl Company ) and the dagger was inspected by two of the folks there, and was told it was Elephant Ivory. The folks there could not tell me as to what country the Ivory came from but was in their their judgment Elephant Ivory' they showed me the fine cross hatch grain in the "wings of the hilt..

What makes all of this so interesting to me is that Rand, and Jens told me what it was and did not have the dagger to hold/look at. Could of saved a trip :)
Gene

spiral

9th August 2007, 12:03 AM

What makes all of this so interesting to me is that Rand, and Jens told me what it was and did not have the dagger to hold/look at. Could of saved a trip :)
Gene

Of course other than Elephant or Mamoth ivory the only other thing it could be is plastic! Which is common on old European knives but not Indo/persian etc. {Well till the fakers start doing that!]

The alternate grain is visible in your picture here. ;)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=22217&stc=1

I am sure between that & the cross hatching you will always identify it yourself in futre, rather than accepting what others say.

So your trip was worthwhile i think? knowledge is a great resource!

Spiral

Jens Nordlunde

9th August 2007, 01:04 PM

Spiral, it is interesting that you mention mammoth ivory. Is there any difference between elephant and mammoth ivory, or are the both equal hard and with the same structure? Not that I think many of us will ever see a mammoth ivory hilted dagger, but just for the record.

Gene, I am sure you needed to come away from you computer for a while, and, like Spiral said, you learned something too:).

spiral

9th August 2007, 03:11 PM

Its identifiably different Jens by the angles of intersection of the cross hatching. {Schreger lines.}

Usualy Elephant is nearer 90 degrees & mammoth nearer 115 degrees in the outer areas of tusk.

But if several angle measuments are taken of any ivory piece in questian all elephant samples have averages above 100 degrees, and all the extinct proboscideans or {mammoths}have angle averages below 100 degrees.

Also Siberian Mamoth ivory is heavier & harder than Elephant ivory. i dont know about other sources of mammoth but they I am aware they are not usualy of the high quality of the Siberian material.

I think Mammoth ivory has been used on South East Asian pieces before & there was also a big market in Europe in it pre. 1900 with parcels of up to 20 tons auctioned at a time in Liverpool ,Antwerp & London. So I expect it could turn up anywhere.

Spiral

Jens Nordlunde

9th August 2007, 03:59 PM

Thank you for the answer, the amount of mammoth ivory sold on auction surprised me a lot, so you are right – maybe, with a lot of luck, I will one day hold a mammoth ivory hilted dagger in my hand – the problem is, that I may not know it. Imagine how old that ivory is. It is also interesting to know that the Siberian mammoth ivory is harder and heavier than the elephant ivory. The mammoth ivory used in India and what was shipped to Europe for sale, could well have come from Siberia. Where else did/do you find so many mammoths?

spiral

9th August 2007, 05:34 PM

Sorry for my lack of clarity Jens, The lots auctioned in Europe came from Siberia.

I havent seen it on Indian weapons but have heard of it used in the Malayan archipeligo. But others here would know more about that, I am sure.

i think lots is found in the North sea when drilling for oil etc but it is badly damaged, & discoloured some is found through out northen & eastern europe, & Alsaka as well. Others places to I expect.

But the good stuff is Siberian. it weights 20% to 30% more on average than Elephant.

Spiral

Mare Rosu

9th August 2007, 11:02 PM

Spiral:
Sir, you are most correct, knowledge is a great power and you have supplied me with a lot of power from your excellent postings on Ivory. I did learn a lot from the hands on inspection from the handle material folks, but your posting were far more informative and technical. Showing me a picture I took and explaining what was in the picture. Information that I did not know was there, until you pointed it out, hard to believe!

Rand;
Thank you, as well, for the information about the material on my dagger handle, your "leaning" was right on. Do you think we could get Spiral to start a thread on his ivory knowledge, as you suggested? He said he is just learning about ivory, fine, I will take anything he offers. How about it Spiral, PLEASE!

Jens:
I do need to get out of the house occasionally ( not just to the doctors office! ) :p
Again you have helped me in my never ending quest for knowledge.
I have acquired the name of my dagger, how the little balls were placed in the hilt, and what they were for, what the handle material is, also where it was probably made. Not bad, not bad at all.
Only thing still unknown to me is what was the "smiley" for? :confused:

I think I/we have "beat" this dagger to death with all the information from all the good folks, posting, on this forum. It is always amazing, to me, the collective knowledge/power that is shown by the forum folks. It has been a great "ride" for me and I thank you one and all for it. :D
Gene.

spiral

11th August 2007, 12:19 AM

Rand;
Thank you, as well, for the information about the material on my dagger handle, your "leaning" was right on. Do you think we could get Spiral to start a thread on his ivory knowledge, as you suggested? He said he is just learning about ivory, fine, I will take anything he offers. How about it Spiral, PLEASE!

.

Glad it was of some use Gene!

I think the total of my ivory knowledge is just about exhausted though., as I said I am just a mere student, 6 years ago I couldnt tell bone from Ivory. ;) :( so I set out to learn a little more than the often reapeted antique dealers old wives tales I kept hearing, that are sometimes so misleading. So I both read & also more importantly spoke to instrument makers who buy & use the various types every working day of there lives.

But thankyou for asking.I am flattered. :)

But sure after a little more research on my part perhaps I can add more of substance at a later date.

Spiral

Battara

12th August 2007, 07:35 PM

Tim Simmons

12th August 2007, 07:49 PM

This is well handled white African ivory. Mangbetu/Zande - South Soudan, North East Congo.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/EEEEE060.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/EEEEE061.jpg

Jens Nordlunde

12th August 2007, 08:41 PM

I have a vague remembrance about that the Moguls used Sulphur in the water to cool it (Beriner?) – did they?

Mare Rosu

12th August 2007, 09:10 PM

There is one other note for the coloring of ivory. As Spiral says it depends on environment and one environmental factor is the amount of exposure to sulfur.

Sulfur is mostly what colors ivories. For example elephant ivories in the presence of sulfur will turn yellow to orange to brown. IT is always in the air, but heat will accelerate the chemical reaction as the ivories "breath" in the sulfur already in the air.

By the way, Jens I always love your pictures - and am insanely jealous. :o

Battara; Great information about Sulfur changing ivory yellow.
I know for a fact, unfortunately, that rubber bands have a lot of sulfur in them, and I assume all rubber products also has sulfur in them. The rubber bands were stored in a box with some of my old Silver coins and the coins turn black :eek:
Question, Battara, on this dagger as well as others daggers/knives that I have with ivory handles I use Renaissance Wax on them, will that protect them from the effects of ambient sulfur?
Gene

Michael Blalock

12th August 2007, 10:02 PM

Here is some info on identifying ivory types.

http://www.asianartmall.com/schreger-lines.htm

Battara

14th August 2007, 12:51 AM

Battara; Great information about Sulfur changing ivory yellow.
I know for a fact, unfortunately, that rubber bands have a lot of sulfur in them, and I assume all rubber products also has sulfur in them. The rubber bands were stored in a box with some of my old Silver coins and the coins turn black :eek:
Question, Battara, on this dagger as well as others daggers/knives that I have with ivory handles I use Renaissance Wax on them, will that protect them from the effects of ambient sulfur?
Gene
First: Sorry about your coins. Sulfur also reacts with silver to make sulfur oxide on the silver - also known as tarnish. This also happens on copper to produce copper oxide which is green (and poisonous) (lots of copper in brass and bronze).

Second: Renaissance Wax will protect them since it seals the ivory (also wood, steel, etc.). A very good question. :)