MORO SILVER HILTED

[Flavio]

Here is a nice kris that maybe someone already knows :) I have etched the blade but there is something strange: the area near the gangya shows a clear lamination, but the rest of the blade is black!!! Anyway, even if the pictures are quite bad, you can see a nice lamination. Maybe this is due to many and many deep polishings of the blade that have removed the "superficial" steel, and so the original lamination that is something like you see near the ganya???? Any comment is welcome and appreciated :)

[Tim Simmons]

That is an unexpected occurrence. Is it possible that there are two parts to this blade. ? In the motor trade it might be known as a cut and shut.

[kai]

Hello Flavio,

That one wasn't cheap. ;)

I have etched the blade but there is something strange: the area near the gangya shows a clear lamination, but the rest of the blade is black!!! Anyway, even if the pictures are quite bad, you can see a nice lamination. Maybe this is due to many and many deep polishings of the blade that have removed the "superficial" steel, and so the original lamination that is something like you see near the ganya????
I suspect you may have a real winner here... Could you please email larger close-ups of the blade?

The original sandwich construction is certainly still intact: I do see blurry laminations towards the tip of the blade. I think you're just in for some more rounds of polishing and etching to get a very pleasing result - go for it! :)

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Agree with Kai; I think I might see a twist core hiding in there .. :)

[Bill]

I agree with Kai & Rick that it would be worth it to re-polish & etch again. I have a wavey kris that is somewhat simular. The inner core much lighter, the outside almost being black (I've never etched it). In almost the same place as in Flavio's kriss, mine also has the same characteristics except it's a very distinct line that's the same on both sides. I've always assumed that it is a quench line but I'm far from certain. My sword has held a very sharp edge. Usually I have noticed, while etching, old rust area's will come out dark/black; but definitely, some steels will etch out almost black while others in the same blade stay light.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

I have a wavey kris that is somewhat simular. The inner core much lighter, the outside almost being black (I've never etched it). In almost the same place as in Flavio's kriss, mine also has the same characteristics except it's a very distinct line that's the same on both sides. I've always assumed that it is a quench line but I'm far from certain.
No, not a quench line: Your's is a perfect example of the usual sandwich construction with the outer steel with less carbon (but more tensile strength) partly covering the central plate of harder high carbon steel. Both steels can show laminations although this is usually only obvious within the low carbon steel (both for twist core as well as more laminar/random pattern welded blades).

Regards,
Kai

[Bill]

Kai, Sorry but the picture doesn't show my point well. I'm not set up for pics right now & added this one as a after-thought to my post (I had it on disk). There is a faint line on the pic (very strong on visual expection) about 5 cm from the hilt. The outer darkness stays the same on both sides of the line but the inner core has noticable differences in the lamination. That is the line, that may be a quench line. I assume the smith started by making a straight sword, adding the waves after. Would he use constant quenching to keep previous "waves" from being distorted as he preceded? Kris generally keep a very sharp edge, this one is even sharper then the usual, another reason it may have a unusual quench "marking"?

[josh stout]

I have seen a lighter area at the forte of a blade on a Chinese dao that Philip Tom attributed to annealing. The idea was to reheat the base of the blade and let it cool slowly to increase durability at the expense of hardness in an area where hardness is not as important. This is not a comment on the underlying pattern of the steel, but the lighter area at the base of the blade looks almost exactly like what I saw on the dao.
Josh

[Flavio]

Thank you guys :D !! Yeah, I will try to re-polished an etched again the blade hoping and praying that is a twisted core blade!!!! Any suggestion on the age? Is another end of 19th - early 20th century kris? (nothing wrong with kris of this age, of course ;) :p :D )

[Flavio]

Well, since I will not have the time in the next few days to re-polish and re etch the blade I have a more close look at the blade: in on side there are three (maybe four) clear rows that comes from the gangya area untill the point in the middle portion of the blade (the center). On the other side these rows are clear but I can see also some other thinner lines (the others in the center of the blade are 0.6 mm circa of width). In the pictures you can see a photo taken before of the etching: there are some strange, how can I say, "cracks" on the blade....

[kai]

Hello Flavio,

I will try to re-polished an etched again the blade hoping and praying that is a twisted core blade!!!!
Take your time - I'm pretty sure it is a twist core... :D

Any suggestion on the age? Is another end of 19th - early 20th century kris?
I'd guess at late 19th century, possibly picked up during the Spanish-American war...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Josh,

I have seen a lighter area at the forte of a blade on a Chinese dao that Philip Tom attributed to annealing. The idea was to reheat the base of the blade and let it cool slowly to increase durability at the expense of hardness in an area where hardness is not as important.
Thanks for the nice observation! Maybe this would be preferable to do before attaching the gangya; it seems safe to assume that the latter was also annealed for ease of working and toughness.

The only other explanation which comes to my mind would be quenching almost the whole blade in some fluid...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Bill,

There is a faint line on the pic (very strong on visual expection) about 5 cm from the hilt. The outer darkness stays the same on both sides of the line but the inner core has noticable differences in the lamination. That is the line, that may be a quench line.
Sorry, didn't saw that!

Actually, I'm still having a hard time to locate that line - I'd appreciate a close-up whenever you find some time to take pics. ;)

Regards,
Kai

[Flavio]

Hi all!! Well I was so curoius that I can't wait: I have tried but don't seems to be twisted core..... I'm so sorry, I was hoping.... Anyway I haven't taken pictures because it wasn't worth. I have polished and etched twice one side of the blade, one time with cloruric ferric and than with lemon, but nothing. Anyway I will try again on the whole blade with vinegar.... The last chance :p

[kai]

Hello Flavio,

Anyway I haven't taken pictures because it wasn't worth. I have polished and etched twice one side of the blade, one time with cloruric ferric and than with lemon, but nothing. Anyway I will try again on the whole blade with vinegar....
Hmm, weird - don't give up unless you get clear evidence for some other pattern!

Please do take close-ups of the blade at each step! Even it may not look pretty there may be more hints on this blade. If these suggest twist core and the blade is just difficult to stain, this may be worth handing over to Philip Tom.

Regards,
Kai

[josh stout]

I agree, those forge lines on the blade really look like evidence of twist core. Just because you can't get it to show up don't give up hope. Some patterns will show up for anyone, and some take more expert care.
Josh

[Flavio]

Hi Josh, hi Kai! you guys are right: I will try again, but could be that I will not able to bring out the pattern :shrug: Hope that will works next time ;) :) :p

[Battara]

Although...........sometimes there are forging markes or "cracks" like these and no pattern at all - I have seen and even have one. :o

[katana]

I hope I am wrong, but could some of the 'cracks' be the remains of decorative etching, now mostly worn or polished out?

[Flavio]

Hello David, I don't know, but IMO they are too much irregular :shrug:

[Flavio]

Well, guys, I need all you help here: attached are many (maybe too much :p ) pictures of the result.... If in some parts seems that the blade could be twisted core, in other no at all!! So please, be so kind to be clear :) : it's me (i'm not an expert and this is not my field, so no offens) or it's the blade??? :) Thanks a lot

[Flavio]

others

[Flavio]

two more ;)

[Battara]

Keep re-etching it - something is coming out, though may be a lamination instead of twistcore.....

[Rick]

It seems to me that all citrus fruits act a little differently; have you tried lime yet ?

[Tim Simmons]

I know nothing about these things really but to me it looks like two billets are worked into one here. At what stage the smith decided more metal was needed one cannot tell. It seems clear more material has been added in the forging of this blade, a confluence at the forte is evident. I could be completely barking. :eek: :(

[Flavio]

Hi Jose, maybe from pictures it's not so clear, but for sure the blade is laminated (parallel lamination alongs the blade). I have etched the blade for an hour or so with some stops to clear the vinegar with cold water and this is the result. All other weapons that I have etched didn't take so long time to shows the pattern :shrug:

Hi RIck, no I have tried with vinegar, cloruric ferric and lemon (in every different etching, not together :D ). This time with vinegar again

[Rick]

"Put de Lime on de kris blade and rub it all up,
Put de Lime on de kris blade and tell us in de morning .... " :D :D

[David]

...Ooh ooh, ain't there nothing i can make,
I say Doc-tor, to improve this twisted snake :D

[Flavio]

:D :D :D :D

[Flavio]

Well, today I was at the sea with some friends (and girls, you know one can't always stay at home to clean and to etch blades :D ;) ) but I was thinking at the kris (I hope that the sunlight didn't hurt me too much :o ). Ok my next step will to etch the blade with lime as suggested, but there could be also another explanation. I have attached a sketch (to help me to explain): it is possible that in origin the blade has another kind of lamination (no twisted core), but with many and many polishings (the green portion) it's gone and now what I have it's only the inner core (the black one that you can see from the pictures of my kris). Some little portions of the green portion is still visible near the gangya. What do you think? :shrug: :D

[Tim Simmons]

I might have it all wrong. This is what I see. Two pieces A and B . They are there in every etch. As far as I can make out B is one piece that may have some lamination or more mixed steels? but I think forged as one piece. A seems to have been introduced latter in the half formed blade?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/IMGP1357.jpg

[Battara]

Keep etching - sometimes a blade can be sooooo polished that it takes several etchings to make a pattern "pop". Believe me, I know. :rolleyes:

[Flavio]

Thank you Jose, I'll do :) ;)

[ThePepperSkull]

I have a kris with a similar gandik/"elephant mouth" shape to this one. Still honing my Moro-blade I.D.-ing skills.

Are my instincts right by guessing that these are both Sulu kris? (Or do I need to hit the books a bit more? ) :D

[Sajen]

Sorry both, I have copied two pictures to see them both together.

[Sajen]

And here my reference picture.

[Sajen]

Now my uneducated guess. While the kris from Flavio look Maranao to my eyes have your kris something from all but when I have tie myself down I would say that your kris is Maguindanao but I am unsure.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

I have done some research again. Here is one from my kris which was shown in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11830
It was appointed from our experts as Maguindanao kris. When you look at yours and mine side by side you will agree that they from the "trunk" area look very similar. So I think that I was with my guess before correct.

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Thank you Jose, I'll do :) ;)

BTW, do you have get any results? :)

[Indianajones]

Maybe you guys are wanting the blade to have something which is just not in it!?!?! Does a laminated blade make the kris so much more. . . . .???

>I know I may be striking against most folks opinion here, but from my opinion a laminated blade is most often just visible even before etching. Though many are of the opinion that any layers in iron (or imperfections) becoming visible by etching must be laminating.

Reason of this note; we are all just temporarely owners of these antique pieces, as after our death (or before) we will pass them on to the next owner. As has been done before we got these antique pieces. And extreme etching does efect the iron as it eats certain ingredients away (forever).
Sorry, its not my intention to sound like a schoolteacher or so, but as collectors of antiquities one does/should have responsibilities :o ;)

[Tim Simmons]

Here here, I also dare to suggest that some lamination may well be far from special. Just the outcome of bashing up what comes to hand and standard forming.

[Sajen]

And extreme etching does efect the iron as it eats certain ingredients away (forever).


An etching with vinegar isn't extreme but very soft! :)

[Indianajones]

Hi, wel dont get me wrong as I am not against etching. For example; I would certainly clean pepperskulls blade up a bit if it were mine. After the first clean up I think I would be able to judge if the piece was created with a lamination or not.

Though I have seen some blades which were put in acid until all oxidation was gone and until the bare metal; leaving a strange greyish shine to it (or strange brown flecks/stripes!) and -so to say-in fact all history was removed. Really a pitty; piece destroyed actually.
I have also handled some pieces so heavily oxidated that the only resource was to put them into a strong acid (and no sanding and specially no sandingmachine which leaves those nice small circles, which many of you will also recognize!! :shrug: ). Personnally I like to leave just a bit rust as it gives the piece a bit character. But I would also etch a blade to bring a lamination up more stronger.
>>repeated etching does go deeper and deeper removing the imperfections out of iron; just the same with polishing silver; every time one takes away a tiny surfacelayer away. And it can alsoactivate other chemical processes as oxidation after cleaning<<

[David]

Maybe you guys are wanting the blade to have something which is just not in it!?!?! Does a laminated blade make the kris so much more. . . . .???

>I know I may be striking against most folks opinion here, but from my opinion a laminated blade is most often just visible even before etching. Though many are of the opinion that any layers in iron (or imperfections) becoming visible by etching must be laminating.

Reason of this note; we are all just temporarely owners of these antique pieces, as after our death (or before) we will pass them on to the next owner. As has been done before we got these antique pieces. And extreme etching does efect the iron as it eats certain ingredients away (forever).
Sorry, its not my intention to sound like a schoolteacher or so, but as collectors of antiquities one does/should have responsibilities :o ;)
The "etch" which most folks do on Moro blades can barely be called an "etch" at all. If there is erosion to the blade i would call it almost indiscernible for the most part. It is generally done with vinegar which is an extremely mild etching agent and is usually done with a brush a method, not left to soak for any long period of time that might do damage to the steel. There has been some question in the past about whether this was actually done traditionally, though frankly i have seen no definitive answer to that question. But for the most part Indy, you are worrying about nothing here. I have etched Moro kris, found nothing particularly attractive, and then simply gave it a light polish to bring the blade back before etch appearance (only a bit cleaner). Sometimes you can do this form of "etch" and reveal a magnificent pattern. I have not noticed any particular lose of metal in this process and don't feel that i have at all damaged the blade for future custodians. No one is talking about "extreme etching"on these pieces. :)