Between Solo and Yogya

[ganjawulung]

Dear All,

Solo (Surakarta) and Yogya (Jogjakarta) are not the only Javanese style. Nevertheless, these two styles are the most dominan in the Javanese keris. These pictures, show you for visual comparison: Ladrang (left) and the parable in Yogya style, Branggah (right).

Solo and Yogya which only 64 kms apart, are brother cities, though in the past history, they are rivalry. So no wonder if in the style of their kerises are opposing, contradictory. Also in their expressions of Javanese culture.

You will recognize more and more, everytime you compare the two styles of sheath in your hand. The type of daunan (leaf of the sheath) is also different. You may compare from the following pictures from above.

The hilts, are different. The form of pendhok (metal scabbard) is different too. And almost every detail is different, between Solo and Yogya style. The philosophy is also different.

Solo style, is more "gebyar" (glamour) in their dresses: sometimes studded with gems, gold, diamonds. But the Yogya style is more simple. The most glamour of Yogya style is only pendhok from "gangsa" (gold and copper or gold and brass). And much more differences of their style...

Ganjawulung

[PenangsangII]

Dear Pak Ganjawulung & friends,

I dont know why, but when it comes to Jawanese keris, Solo style has always caught my eyes. Definitely not because of "gebyar" as I like simplicty & practicality over cosmetic appearance. Maybe the hilt style....Solo style is more practicle if it is to be used as a weapon....sorry, I am more inclined towards the use of keris as a weapon.

Warm regards,
Penangsang

[ganjawulung]

I dont know why, but when it comes to Jawanese keris, Solo style has always caught my eyes. Definitely not because of "gebyar" as I like simplicty & practicality over cosmetic appearance. Maybe the hilt style....Solo style is more practicle if it is to be used as a weapon....sorry, I am more inclined towards the use of keris as a weapon.

Dear Penangsang,
Yes, it is matter of taste. But for the Solonese people (and the Yogyanese), style it is a matter of their identity. A Solonese noble man of course doesn't want to "wear" (not to have for just collections) keris with Yogyanese style. And likewise the Yogyanese nobleman. True Yogyanese, is even more fanatic -- doesn't want to touch Solonese keris (nom-noman, or new Solonese keris) with Solonese sheath.

For me? I was born as Solonese, but "prefer" to have Yogyanese style for my collections. It is a matter of simplicity, and personal inclination... But I have some kerises with Solonese style in my collection.

Ganjawulung

[Rick]

........Personal taste.
Each is different; neither is better.
This seems a non-issue. :shrug:













My opinion. :shrug:

[ganjawulung]

Dear All,
These pictures below are the "gayaman" styles. On the left, is Solonese gayaman with wanda (special style) of Banyumasan, and on the right is Yogyanese gayaman with "wanda" Hamengku Buwanan -- or Yogyanese style in the era or Hamengku Buwono (recent style of Yogya. In the past, there was also Amangkuratan style). Banyumas is the west state of Solo, or to be exact -- west Central Java.

Ladrang and Branggah, usually used for formal occasions, such as formal visit to the King of Solo or Yogya. Or, attending a wedding ceremony. And Gayaman is more for daily use either for high ranking or lower ranking court servants...

You may regard the difference in the form of hilts, and upper end of the pendok (straight for Solonese, and curved for Yogyanese. And the form of the pendhok -- the metal in the scabbard -- the Solonese is bigger. And for the Yogyanese -- becomes smaller in the lower part...

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Dear All,
This is another keris with Yogyanese style. Even the keris, is Yogyanese too, from the era of Hamengku Buwono (recent era) but some regarded it as Riyokusuman style. And it has an official stamp in the back of the upper pendhok, just to denote the official administration for certain purpose.

The keris, bears dhapur "pendawa prasaja" or dhapur pendawa (five luks) without sogokan in the middle of the sor-soran. The blade is pamorless, or Javanese people call it as "kelengan" (all black)...

Ganjawulung

[PenangsangII]

Salam to all keris afficionados,

Pak Ganja, your Yogya kelingan looks very exquisite, the kind of keris blade that I would go for....

One question, is there any difference between the Solonese & Yogyanese blades in terms of daphur, pamor, greneng etc. If there is, what is/are the difference/s? Also, what makes them so different, I mean, there must be somekind of enmity in the past, but arent they all Jawanese afterall?

[ganjawulung]

Pak Ganja, your Yogya kelingan looks very exquisite, the kind of keris blade that I would go for....

One question, is there any difference between the Solonese & Yogyanese blades in terms of daphur, pamor, greneng etc. If there is, what is/are the difference/s? Also, what makes them so different, I mean, there must be somekind of enmity in the past, but arent they all Jawanese afterall?
Dear Penangsang,
Yes, the "gagrak anyar" (new era) kerises of Solo is much different with the nom-noman (new) Yogyanese kerises. New Yogyanese kerises are more Mataram's style, old style (although the kingdom is younger than karaton or palace of Solo). And the new Solo style is really new, in the style of the form of the blade, ganja (quite easy to recognize). But the new Yogyanese, sometimes difficult to recognize whether it is nom-noman or older Mataramese. The most different, is the tip of the keris. Mataram kerises and also Yogyanese kerises, are usually with "nyujen" (a kind of a very sharp-pointed leaf) type, but the tip of Solonese mostly (not all) "anggabah kopong" (like an empty grain of rice). But very, very seldom -- or maybe never -- new Solonese tip of kerises with "nyujen" type...

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

[QUOTE=ganjawulung...The most different, is the tip of the keris. Mataram kerises and also Yogyanese kerises, are usually with "nyujen" (a kind of a very sharp-pointed leaf) type, but the tip of Solonese mostly (not all) "anggabah kopong" (like an empty grain of rice). But very, very seldom -- or maybe never -- new Solonese tip of kerises with "nyujen" type...
[/QUOTE]
Addition: and also the type of "mbuntut tumo" or "like a hair-flea"...

[ganjawulung]

Dear All,
These pictures below, show you two "ladrang" types of Solonese sheaths. But they are different in basic form. The first (right) form is the type of "Ladrang Kadipaten" (usually for Pangeran or Prince and for people who has the same degree or level), and "Ladrang Capu" for oldies...

Please regard the Capu's pendhok, is not made of metal but wood! It was handycrafted by the mranggi (keris-sheath maker) with patience. No machine can make such wooden pendhok, I think...

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

...But they are different in basic form. The first (right) form is the type of "Ladrang Kadipaten" (usually for Pangeran or Prince and for people who has the same degree or level), and "Ladrang Capu" for oldies...

Correction: The first (right) ... it must be The first (left)...

[kai]

Ganja, thanks for posting these comparisions!

That scabbard with wooden pendhok is really great craftmanship! And the wood is just gorgeous... (:-)::: :D

The pendhok functions as the complete backside of the scabbard, I assume?

Regards,
Kai

[drdavid]

Ganja, I am astounded by that wooden pendhok. Is that inlay along the front edges, if so what is inlayed? That is amazing craftsmanship.
DrD

[ganjawulung]

That scabbard with wooden pendhok is really great craftmanship! And the wood is just gorgeous... (:-)::: :D

The pendhok functions as the complete backside of the scabbard, I assume?

Dear Kai,
I just took off the pendhok from the scabbard to be photographed. Please see the pendhok, put on the scabbard in the first picture. The pendhok was especially made for that "ladrang capu" (please spell as chapoo...). So, it was made of different wood...

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Ganja, I am astounded by that wooden pendhok. Is that inlay along the front edges, if so what is inlayed? That is amazing craftsmanship.
DrD
No, Doctor. Not inlayed, but carved carefully. I think with a sharp-pointed tool. And then, whitened the small lines of carving with a kind of white paint... We call the carving technic as "cukitan" teknik. Cukit or nyukit, is a work of "hurting" the wood or iron surface with sharp tool to make ornament on that piece of art..

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Ganja, I am astounded by that wooden pendhok. Is that inlay along the front edges, if so what is inlayed? That is amazing craftsmanship.
DrD
Dear Doctor,
I have asked Mas Min (I don't even know his komplit name, but he is around 44-45 years of age) -- the maker of the wooden pendhok -- about this carving. According to Mas Min (he is a Solonese mranggi), the white colour in the cukitan is not white paint, but crushed white bone mixed with wooden glue and then wiped after it put on the carving...

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

That scabbard with wooden pendhok is really great craftmanship! And the wood is just gorgeous... (:-)::: :D

Dear Kai,
The name of the wood is "pilisium" or in Latin, Filicium decipients. You can find such trees in many places in Jakarta. Actually, the colour of the inner wood is white. Easy growing, and softer than Akasia...

Ganjawulung

[Kiai Carita]

Dear Kai,
The name of the wood is "pilisium" or in Latin, Filicium decipients. You can find such trees in many places in Jakarta. Actually, the colour of the inner wood is white. Easy growing, and softer than Akasia...

Ganjawulung

Pak Ganja,

I am very interested in the pilisium wood. The pendok is amazing - I have never seen anything like it. I am currently creating a traditional kebun of aroun 3,5 hectares in a remote part of Ngawi and would very much like to be able to plant some pilisium trees. You wouldn't be able to point me to the right direction to obtain seedlings would you?

And while I am at it, I would also like to plant trees like trembalo, timoho, kemuning, kemuning werut and other types of trees traditionally used for warangka making. If anyone has access or knows of seedlings of these plants I would be gratefull. Especially if they are available in the Yogya-Solo-Madiun area.

By the way, ground bone (used as a pigment) and glue (used as a fixer) is paint.

Thank you very much in advance,
Bram

[David]

Thank you Ganja for these comparisons. While this is all pretty much basic infomation it is wonderful to see it so well illustrated here on the forum for the less studied or casual collectors to see and understand. The incredible range of variance in the keris throughout all of Indonesia has often baffled the non-collectors who may have a mild interest.
I also agree that that wooden pendok is just fantastic and beautiful. Thank you for showing it.
As for the variation of form i say (as the French do) "Vive la difference!". Personally i have no preference in this regard and it is part of my aim in my collection to collect as many variants as i can find (that appeal to me of course :) ). It probably doesn't need to be said, but Solo and Yogya keris have far more things in common with each other than they do differences. ;)

[ganjawulung]

I am very interested in the pilisium wood. The pendok is amazing - I have never seen anything like it. I am currently creating a traditional kebun of aroun 3,5 hectares in a remote part of Ngawi and would very much like to be able to plant some pilisium trees. You wouldn't be able to point me to the right direction to obtain seedlings would you?

And while I am at it, I would also like to plant trees like trembalo, timoho, kemuning, kemuning werut and other types of trees traditionally used for warangka making. If anyone has access or knows of seedlings of these plants I would be gratefull. Especially if they are available in the Yogya-Solo-Madiun area.
Dear Kiai Carita,
If you are in Jakarta, you will see that pilisium or filisium trees are planted for greening the street's border almost everywhere. It seems, that pilisium now is becoming a "favorit" of the "Dinas Pertamanan DKI Jakarta" (gardens affairs service of Jakarta). Logically, they have the seeding plantation somewhere around the capital city.

In the seventies, former Governor of Jakarta Ali Sadikin popularized new plants from South America (?) -- Akasia -- for greening the street's border of Jakarta. The greening was good. But unfortunately, many akasia trees often fell to the ground due to heavy storms. Then recently, came this pilisium trees -- the fast growing, and quite robust tree against the occasional storm in the rainy seasons...

Then "came" the keris connoisseurs, who regarded the interesting texture of this pilisium wood. Yes, actually the inside of the pilisium wood is white in colour. The same as "pohon kenari" (canary), or "kemuning". They have good texture -- striped, and if they are processed in a certain way -- will become "tigerlike" skin... Kenari, kemuning, and pilisium wood, they are all have light colour inside. But if they are processed -- in the traditional way: soaked in a "gambier" water and lime stone (gambier is boiled first with water then mixed with limestone) -- they will become "tigerlike" chatoyant... Nowadays, it is possible too if you process the kenari, kemuning and pilisium wood in a certain "chemical liquid" to make chatoyance of such woods. But I don't know exactly, what chemical it is...

Another precious tree for keris lovers, is "timo" or "timoho" tree (Kleinhovia Hospita L). In Yogyakarta, there are only about three (3) left. Two in Mr Adam (bus owner in the centre of Yogya) and the other in the middle of a village alley near Pasar Srandakan (see my picture below, i took it a few years ago). This "sacrified" timo in Srandakan, Bantul (Yogya) was taken care of by an old man not far from the tree. Sometimes, this old man grows a number of timo trees in pots. He will refuse to give them to you, if you say: "I'll buy it", instead of "May I take care of your small tree," and then you "change" in return, with some money...

Timoho trees are not easy to grow. The seed are growing, quite apart from their long roots... Nice to hear that you will plant such tree, Pak Kiai. Good luck..

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

As for the variation of form i say (as the French do) "Vive la difference!". Personally i have no preference in this regard and it is part of my aim in my collection to collect as many variants as i can find (that appeal to me of course :) ). It probably doesn't need to be said, but Solo and Yogya keris have far more things in common with each other than they do differences. ;)
Hi David,
"Vive la difference aussi...!" I like the differences too: Javanese, Sumatranese, Bugis... And Malay, Patani... Thanks David for your kind attention...

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Dear All,
These are more pictures of a Yogyanese sheath, made of timoho wood. The pelet (motive of wood) is "ngingrim". The type of sheath is "branggah" with wanda Hamengku Buwanan, and the hilt is made of "tayuman" wood. Kinds of tayuman trees also grown by the gardens affairs dept of Jakarta for greening the capital city's street..

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

And this is a new warangka, Ladrang Solo -- pilisium (filicium) wood -- made by mas plompong from Bekonang, Solo. According to mas plompong, the pilisum wood was processed after it became warangka. It was lubricated with certain liquid (traditional, or chemical) in order to make it chatoyant...

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Hi All,
Another example of wood texture. Forest mango wood (I don't know the latin name of this kind of mango), sometimes have good texture too. But no chatoyance, event if it is processed like you processed the kemuning, trembalo, kenari and pilisium wood.

Please see the example of the forest mango's texture in this "cis" (sharp weapon, usually put in a old walking stick). The forest mango's fruit is smaller, very sour, and the trees are usually robust...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

These posts on various woods are quite interesting, Pak Ganja, but I have a question for you:- can you please advise your source for the name of the weapon shown in your most recent post, as "cis" ?

Thank you.

[PenangsangII]

Salam,

Pak Ganja, I have never come across any weapon called "cis", pls elaborate. From the visual alone, I suspect that the "cis" is equivalent to tempius or pedang sodok. The dressing (hilt & scabbard) strongly resembles Chinese jian?
It was said that during Singhasari & Majapahit times, there were a lot of mingling between the Chinese / Monggols & the Javanese.

[ganjawulung]

These posts on various woods are quite interesting, Pak Ganja, but I have a question for you:- can you please advise your source for the name of the weapon shown in your most recent post, as "cis" ?

Thank you.
Dear Alan,
I appreciate very much to your correctness... Cis, unfortunately, I follow to call it such name just based on the "ex owner". I have checked the name of such kind of "sharp point of long spear" or "sharp point of two edged weapon" in keris books, ensiklopedi, but didn't find any clue. What the reality was, the original sheath of this weapon was a broken old wooden walking stick.

Tempius? (Please see the picture of Mr Lalu Djelenga's book). Not exactly tempius, because this weapon is flat, thin, and has two edges. Or may be Lombok "sendirung" (the other picture)? Neither. Sendirung has a "methuk" like tombak at the base...

What is your suggestion?

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

This is more pictures of the "long sharp two edged weapon"...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Here is an image of what I know as a cis.

There is considerable variation in form, but they all resemble either an angkus, or a harpoon.

Is this blade ovoid in cross section, or triangular?

How has the tang been formed?

[ganjawulung]

Here is an image of what I know as a cis.

There is considerable variation in form, but they all resemble either an angkus, or a harpoon.

Is this blade ovoid in cross section, or triangular?

How has the tang been formed?

Not triangular, but slightly curved, quite thin. The tang or pesi, just like badik's tang -- flat and wide... It looks more "pedang" (sword) than spear...

[A. G. Maisey]

I rather suspect that this blade could be something re-manufactured from a pedang blade, specifically for use in its original fittings.

[ganjawulung]

I rather suspect that this blade could be something re-manufactured from a pedang blade, specifically for use in its original fittings.
Dear Alan,
Someday, if we'll meet I'll bring it to you. But I don't think it is a remanufacture. I am quite sure for that. You may see from the slorok -- that is not a (thick) slorok of a normal pedang. The slorok is as thin as keris slorok. It was regarded by many of my keris friend from Solo, Yogya, and according to them, it is "asli" (not fake or remake...)

The style of pamor -- is typically Mataram. (It is not possible to describe it by words), also the iron. A couple of "akhodiyat" (glitter pamor) in the beras wutah. But quite sure, that the metal material was especially made for such form of weapon. You may loop with your magnifying glass...

Anyway, thanks for your kind attention

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

These are more pictures on keris sheaths made of "trembalo" wood, with different chatoyance. One Yogya gayaman with old silver pendhok, "bunton" type with "alas-alasan" motive (forest motive). And the other one is keris sheath, iras (one piece of wood) Yogya gayaman -- with brass pendhok, slewah or blewahan type.

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, you have it in your hand, I do not, if you say it is asli, then it is asli.

However, it is a non-typical form, it is long rather than short, of light cross section, and it has a flat tang. In my experience, this type of blade is very likely to be re-manufactured. It is a waste of time looking at it to try to guess if it has been re-manufactured or not, it could have been done over 100 years ago, re-forged, cut and then reforged again.Let me start with a normal pedang suduk,and I could produce this blade , including the apparently thin slorok, myself.

But let me put it another way:- if came across this blade in the market place, I would assume it was re-manufactured and the price I paid for it would be based on that assumption.

Still, if you are convinced it is asli, then I bow to the wisdom of your judgement.

[PenangsangII]

Pak Ganja,

The type of weapon called "cis" you mentioned was as you said tangguh Mataram. May I ask who normally used it in the past - whether he was king, courtiers, Pangerans, Palace guards etc? How it was worn as definitely the bearer must also wear at least a keris?

[ganjawulung]

The type of weapon called "cis" you mentioned was as you said tangguh Mataram. May I ask who normally used it in the past - whether he was king, courtiers, Pangerans, Palace guards etc? How it was worn as definitely the bearer must also wear at least a keris?
Dear Penangsang,
Just call it, "tempius" -- because the form is resemble to that of Lombok weapon. And I dare not to say that it has tangguh Mataram. But the pamor and the iron, is the kind of keris's iron and pamor of tangguh Mataram.

What I had found, after visited the "Gedong Pusaka" (Room of Pusaka) of Keraton (Palace) Solo before it was destroyed by fire in 1985, I saw that the keraton had quite a number of uncommon forms of weapon with pamor. Such as, handful dagger (Pangeran Puger -- the Chief of Gedong Pusaka -- said, it was usually used as kind of secret weapon by the palace guard). Mr Mans (Hidayat) had shown us too, an uncommon weapon of "jantra" (arrows) in another thread a couple days ago. I also saw that the tip of the karaton (palace) umbrella had a tip of secret spear too. It is called as "menur" (usually without pamor, pointed point). It would be used by the king in the emergency situation. And also, secret weapon in the walking stick of kings. I hope this kind of 'Javanese tempius' is a such weapon...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, I beg your forgiveness because of my continuing pursuit of this trivial matter. I myself have often taken the position that in respect of South East Asian weaponry, names of the weapons, and for that matter other things, are not particularly important, because of the indisputable fact that names change from area to area, town to town, and village to village.

However, if we accept that this blade, which you originally described as a "cis", is indeed an old weapon, that was forged in its present mechanically inadequate form from the outset, and that we feel it may be appropriate to attribute it to Lombok as a "tempius", then let us look at what Pak Djelengga says about the tempius:-

"--- the form of the blade is round or square,there are also (ones) like a blimbing which have three corners (edges), four , or many corners (edges).---"

Pak Djelengga does not say that a tempius can have a flat blade with two edges, nor an ovoid blade; he is quite clear:- a tempius may have a round blade, or a blade with three or more edges.

Therefore, just as you have so wisely disqualified this "cis" as a "sendirung", because it has no metuk, I feel we must also disqualify it as a "tempius", because it has a blade of incorrect cross section.

Thus, we are left with a longish blade of light construction with a flat tang , not designed to withstand side pressures. This blade is made from old material , and it came in an old, broken , walking stick.

Please understand, I am not challenging the knowledge and judgement of either you, or your friends, when you tell us that this piece of wesi aji is without doubt in the form in which it was originally forged. I am certain that both you and your friends could mount an extremely convincing argument, possibly complete with evidence, that would dispel all doubt in respect of the correctness of your individual and joint opinions. So, if you say that this blade is original in all respects I accept without reservation that this is your opinion.

Equally, I accept that it might be difficult to prove that this exquisite piece of wesi aji never occupied a place of honour in the walking stick of a ruler. So since we cannot disprove this proposal, let us all accept it as a possibility.

I must say, this approach to the study the Javanese culture and its weaponry is certainly more interesting than the humourless pursuit of facts.

After all, what are facts?

Only those things that most people believe.

And we all know that the vast majority of people are easily led.

[ganjawulung]

Here is an image of what I know as a cis.

There is considerable variation in form, but they all resemble either an angkus, or a harpoon.



Dear Alan,
I am very interested in knowing more on cis. Is this (pls see the pictures) also a cis? Where can I find the reference, that such form is a cis? I've tried to search in books, and also other source, but didnt find any clue...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, I do not know of any book reference on cis.

I have the name from various people that I know, and have known , in Solo.

My wife, who comes from East Jawa , calls some of these things "pancing buaya", which name she got from her father who used to make them, and use them for exactly that.Other of what people in Solo would call "cis", she has no name for, and does not recognise; these are the "cis" that resemble an angkus.

The item that you have posted a pic of, I personally would hesitate to call a cis, but probably some people in Solo would give it that name.

In fact, in Javanese, the word "cis" does have the meaning of "angkus".

I'm sure you have noted that when I posted the image of what I know as a "cis", I wrote:-

"Here is an image of what I know as a cis."

I did not write:-

"Here is an image of a cis."

I feel that what has happened with this group of items that we know as "cis" in Solo, is this:- some of them are correctly named as "cis", and these are the ones that look, and probably functioned as, an angkus; the others which bear a resemblance to a correctly named cis, are in fact not cis at all, but various types of harpoon used to harpoon crocodiles, or sharks and other large fish.

I have a few of these cis of both types. I'm not exactly sure where they are at the moment, but if I can locate them I will post some more pictures.

[ganjawulung]

Dear All,
This is only displaying cuts of pamor from only one side blade of my whatever name of weapon. (The size of the blade is one hasta, or around 50 centimeters). The motives of pamor (beras wutah) seemingly match with the size of narrow field of the blade. Quite fine beras wutah. I don't even think, whether this whatever weapon is a remanufactured-weapon or not...

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Dhapur "Brojol" with pamor "tunggak semi" (sprouting bud), and dhapur "tilamupih" with pamor "kupu tarung" (fighting butterfly). Both with Yogyanese hilts...

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Almost every collector who collect Javanese kerises in Java, know this popular dhapur "sabuk inten" (diamond belted), with 11 luks. As popular as Nagasasra (mostly thirteen luks, with naga or dragon relief). For comparison, I show you the dhapur "sengkelat" (thirteen luks) with almost similar "ricikan" (details) -- only differed by luks number... (The sengkelat with Solonese hilt is from 21th century, and the Sabuk Inten with Yogyanese hilt supposed to be from Mataram era. Or say it, keris with Mataram style)

The wood of the "branggah" style sheath is quite rare. It is from "nagasari" wood (Messua ferrea Linn.). Nagasari tree, is believed, came from part of India. The name of origin is "nagakesara". Or maybe in Malay, you may call it as "penaga lilin, penaga putih or penaga suga. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Ganjawulung

[BluErf]

This may come a bit late, but I wish to say that I greatly enjoyed the pictures posted. I have always liked beautifully-grained wood turned into excellent sheaths and hilts, sometimes at the expense of the blade. :D

A big thank you to Pak Ganja for sharing. :)

[ganjawulung]

This may come a bit late, but I wish to say that I greatly enjoyed the pictures posted. I have always liked beautifully-grained wood turned into excellent sheaths and hilts, sometimes at the expense of the blade. :D

A big thank you to Pak Ganja for sharing. :)
Dear BluErf,
And sometimes, the keris sheath is more "expensive" than the keris... In Jogjakarta, the keris sheath made of "timoho" wood with "pelet ngingrim" (ngingrim motive, it is difficult to say this motive in words) is as valuable as a keris itself...

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Here is an image of what I know as a cis.

There is considerable variation in form, but they all resemble either an angkus, or a harpoon.



I found and example of a cis -- or more exactly, "cis and taji" -- in Karaton Solo's Museum (The Solo Palace Museum) just in the outer inside part of karaton. (Please see the picture, and the name tag below the special weapon).

Cis, according to this court information, is straight in form. And "taji" (cock's spur or curved nail of a cock) is curved in form. And the use of this weapon is for elephant-soldier...

Ganjawulung

[Alam Shah]

Dear BluErf,
And sometimes, the keris sheath is more "expensive" than the keris... In Jogjakarta, the keris sheath made of "timoho" wood with "pelet ngingrim" (ngingrim motive, it is difficult to say this motive in words) is as valuable as a keris itself...

GanjawulungI agree as well. I have a piece in my collection, which sheath is more expensive than the blade itself... I believe some of us have ensemble that are like that. But the end result, is very satisfying... I sure. ;)

As for the timoho wood you described, it should look pretty impressive... if you don't mind, can we have a look, please? :D

[ganjawulung]

As for the timoho wood you described, it should look pretty impressive... if you don't mind, can we have a look, please? :D
Dear Shahrial,
I've posted the keris warangka (sheath) with "ngingrim" motive in its timoho wood, on this same thread (#22, on 14th of July 2007). The same valuable motive of timoho is "sembur" (like tiger's fur dot). I know, Marco last week "desperately" sought this kind of "sembur" motive in Jogjakarta. (Now he is still in Bali....)

Ganjawulung

[Alam Shah]

I found and example of a cis -- or more exactly, "cis and taji" -- in Karaton Solo's Museum (The Solo Palace Museum) just in the outer inside part of karaton. (Please see the picture, and the name tag below the special weapon).

Cis, according to this court information, is straight in form. And "taji" (cock's spur or curved nail of a cock) is curved in form. And the use of this weapon is for elephant-soldier...

GanjawulungPak Ganja,

That looks like an ankus, elephant goad to me. How long is the handle?
When used by a man riding on the elephant, the handle is normally short. When used by a man walking beside the elephant, the handles are longer about 5 feet long but the hook is smaller. ;)

[Alam Shah]

Dear Shahrial,
I've posted the keris warangka (sheath) with "ngingrim" motive in its timoho wood, on this same thread (#22, on 14th of July 2007). The same valuable motive of timoho is "sembur" (like tiger's fur dot). I know, Marco last week "desperately" sought this kind of "sembur" motive in Jogjakarta. (Now he is still in Bali....)

GanjawulungExcellent! Thanks for sharing. :D

[ganjawulung]

That looks like an ankus, elephant goad to me. How long is the handle?
When used by a man riding on the elephant, the handle is normally short. When used by a man walking beside the elephant, the handles are longer about 5 feet long but the hook is smaller. ;)
Not too long,
I think it is the type of one "pengadeg" landeyan (spear-handle). One pengadeg is the same size of a standing man with hand straight upward...

Ganjawulung

[Marcokeris]

Dear Shahrial,
I've posted the keris warangka (sheath) with "ngingrim" motive in its timoho wood, on this same thread (#22, on 14th of July 2007). The same valuable motive of timoho is "sembur" (like tiger's fur dot). I know, Marco last week "desperately" sought this kind of "sembur" motive in Jogjakarta. (Now he is still in Bali....)

Ganjawulung
Yes, very hard to find a timoho sembur :shrug: .... mybe next time in Yogya i will be more lucky :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, I fear that you may have been just slightly misled; I'm afraid your court informant was a little deficient in his knowledge.

The photo of the implement and signage from the karaton musium is in itself misleading. If you are able to investigate this matter, you will find that the cis of which you show a photo was previously displayed along with some taji. It would seem that the taji have been removed, leaving only the cis , however, the sign has not been altered.

Your photo shows an excellent example of a cis.The cis is not a weapon, it is an angkus, used to control an elephant.

The taji that used to be displayed were the ones used on animals when they were matched against one another, or against macan tutul. They were used mainly on goats in these matches, and the taji were mounted on a frame that strapped to the goat's head. You can still see examples of these taji in the Musium Radyapustaka, on Slamet Riyadi, just near Sriwedari. There's probably some cis there too.

As you have indicated the word "taji" is associated with fighting cocks, however, its usual usage is not for the cock's natural spur, rather, it is used to refer to the steel spur that is bound to the cock's foot when they fight.These spurs are straight, or sometimes waved like a keris blade,but they are not curved, and most definitely not curved to the extent of the hook-like blade of a cis.

[ganjawulung]

Pak Ganja, I fear that you may have been just slightly misled; I'm afraid your court informant was a little deficient in his knowledge.

The photo of the implement and signage from the karaton musium is in itself misleading. If you are able to investigate this matter, you will find that the cis of which you show a photo was previously displayed along with some taji. It would seem that the taji have been removed, leaving only the cis , however, the sign has not been altered.
Dear Alan,
What I saw in the Karaton museum was, a solely tombak in a single cupboard, closed with fixed glass. And just in the foot of the tombak, was a single name-tag for a single object in the solely cupboard.

If according to you, this "court informant" was a little deficient in "his" knowledge, then.. It is beyond my capability and capasity to say that the info was not right...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Be this as it may Pak Ganja, but I am talking observed fact here.

Going back some years cis and taji were on exhibit in the karaton musium. I really do not care what the sign says that you photographed:- that sign is wrong, if it was referring to a single object, that object is a cis.

If you recieved an explanation from a guide, or attendant, or from anybody else, for that matter, the person who provided the explanation was wrong.

I am not seeking agreement from you, nor am I seeking concensus.

I attempted to correct the false information as gently as I could. I am now saying very plainly that the information that you were provided with was wrong.

To check the correctness of what I am saying, one does not need to have extreme depth of knowledge in this field. All that is required is to go to a good Javanese dictionary and one will find it spelled out.

Pak Ganja, you are Javanese, I am not. However, one does not need to be Javanese to know that it is a cultural trait of the Javanese people that when a question is asked, an answer will often be given without regard for the correctness of that answer, simply to try to ensure that the person who asked the question will not be disappointed by not receiving an answer.

You tried your best to obtain a correct answer, but the person whom you asked provided you with incorrect information.

[ganjawulung]

Here is an image of what I know as a cis.

There is considerable variation in form, but they all resemble either an angkus, or a harpoon.


Dear Alan,
Excuse me if I'm misunderstood. Is an angkus is weapon for elephant? And harpoon is weapon for fishing? Is a cis, meant for elephant and also fish? If for elephant, for what purpose? Killing? Would you like to inform me please...

Ganjawulung

[David]

The cis is not a weapon, it is an angkus, used to control an elephant.
I don 't mean to speak for Alan here, but it would seem that he already answered this question in a previous post. :shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

No Pak Ganja, I beg you to please forgive me.

Apparently my use of language has been insufficiently clear. I dealt with this matter previously, but apparently I dealt with it in an inadequate fashion.

I will try again.

A cis is an ankus.

An ankus is a tool used to guide and control an elephant; such a tool is probably correctly named as a goad.

An ankus is not a weapon.

A harpoon is a tool used to spear whales, crocodiles and big fish. Strictly speaking this is also not a weapon.

A weapon is an implement which is used for fighting.

Here I quote my previous post of 17th July:- I feel that what has happened with this group of items that we know as "cis" in Solo, is this:- some of them are correctly named as "cis", and these are the ones that look, and probably functioned as, an angkus; the others which bear a resemblance to a correctly named cis, are in fact not cis at all, but various types of harpoon used to harpoon crocodiles, or sharks and other large fish.

Again I beg your forgiveness for being so imprecise and inadequate in the use of my own native language that I was unable to present information in a clear manner, in addition I feel that I must also ask your indulgence for causing you to waste so much of your valuable time on such an inconsequential matter.

[ganjawulung]

Again I beg your forgiveness for being so imprecise and inadequate in the use of my own native language that I was unable to present information in a clear manner, in addition I feel that I must also ask your indulgence for causing you to waste so much of your valuable time on such an inconsequential matter.
Thank you Alan,
Your explanation gives me clear information about the meaning of the word "angkus". (I didn't find this word in my English dictionary). That's why I ask you explanation.

I found this example in museum, not by intention. I was just seeing the collections of the museum in Solo last week, and coincidentally saw this "elephant goad".

Thanks a lot, Alan
Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

If you cannot find "angkus", try "ankus". I've seen it spelled in both ways, and I'm not quite sure which is correct.

[ganjawulung]

If you cannot find "angkus", try "ankus". I've seen it spelled in both ways, and I'm not quite sure which is correct.
Thanks Alan,
I try to find it, either in bigger Longmans, Webster, Collin Cobuild dictionary, later.

Ganjawulung

[Alam Shah]

... I try to find it, either in bigger Longmans, Webster, Collin Cobuild dictionary, later...You can find it here... ;)

http://www.nga.gov.au/Wolfensohn/RED/ankus.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankus
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/dictionaries/difficultwords/data/d0000989.html

[ganjawulung]

SO CLOSE YET SO FAR

This two cultural cities, Surakarta (Solo) and Yogyakarta in Central Java is so close, only 65 kms apart. Yet, they have quite significant differences in their keris style, and also their practice. Physically, but sometimes non-physically.

Some “solo-school” will say “that’s allright” for certain practice in keris. But “yogya-school” say, “no, you may not do that”. Practice of “mbesut” (refining old kerises), for instance. Solo-school will say, this practice is permitted. But yogya-school will say, no, you may not do that. Yogya will keep old pusakas, old form of kerises as they are, even if the keris edge is corroded.

Some “keris besutan” (keris which has been refined) are easily recognized, from the smooth edge, and also from the very tip of the blade. Solonese besutan, usually changed the tip of old kerises with different type of tip, named as “mbuntut tumo” (as the tail of louse). Once a keris was refined by solonese – even by the famous “ahli besut” of Solo royal palace named Matang – yogyanese would not want to collect it, even it is a good and original old keris from Pajajaran, or Majapahit whatever. Also, fanatic yogyanese won’t put new keris (nom-noman) from Solo in their collection. Newly made solonese keris, is quite different from “classic” style of keris, like Mataram kerises, or older.

Why so different? That is a matter of historical background. Back to the turning point of their brotherhood between the heir of Mataram and his brothers, in 1755. That was the year of “palihan nagari" (the division of the Mataram kingdom), as a result of civil war between the sons of Mataram ruler, Susuhunan Amangkurat Jawa (Amangkurat IV, 1719-1727).

The first rebellion came from Raden Mas Said, the son of Mangkunagoro -- the eldest son of Amangkurat Jawa -- not from the consort of King, but from the mistress. The heir, Susuhunan Paku Buwono II, actually was the 10th son of Amangkurat, but from the consort of King.

In 1745, King Paku Buwono II announced that anyone who could root out the rebellion of Raden Mas Said, would get Sukowati area – in the eastern part of Solo. Mangkubumi – the 21th of total 42 sons of Amangkurat Jawa but from the mistress of the King – succeeded to root out that rebellion. But the King PB II denied his promise. In anger, Mangkubumi then rebelled, and fighting against the King PB II which was backed by the VOC (Vereenigde Nederlandsche g’octroyeerde Oost-Indische Maatschapij, a European multi-nation company at that time).

PB II was very ill when this King “handed” the Kingdom to the VOC. Then PB II was died in 1749. The civil war still took place, until “Gianti Treaty” in 1755. This treaty, which was signed by Nicolaas Hartingh – on behalf of VOC and King of Mataram Paku Buwono III (successor of PB II) – and Mangkubumi, divided Mataram into two kingdoms: Yogyakarta (Mangkubumi, then Hamengku Buwono or HB I) and Surakarta (Paku Buwono III).

Related to “keris world”, Mangkubumi who became Hamengku Buwono I chose “the old style” of Keris, the style of Mataram. And from then the Surakarta kingdom applied “gagrak anyar” style, new style in their kerises, their sheaths. For the "gagrak anyar" style, Solonese kingdom modified the "pesisiran" (coastal state) style.

The ruler of Yogya, Hamengku Buwono I was the uncle of Paku Buwono III -- ruller of the Solonese kingdom. Even not only keris they have differences. Their wayang also had some differences in details and style. Quite significant. Also their style of music, dances….

Ganjawulung

[Raden Usman Djogja]

dear Gonjo,

after paliyan negari
If in Keraton Jogja, there are Kiai Plered & Kiai Kopek. There is Kiai Wewe Putih (Gumarang) in Pakualaman. How about in Keraton Solo and Mangkunegaran.

Usmen

[ganjawulung]

after paliyan negari
If in Keraton Jogja, there are Kiai Plered & Kiai Kopek. There is Kiai Wewe Putih (Gumarang) in Pakualaman. How about in Keraton Solo and Mangkunegaran.

Usmen
That's beyond my knowledge, Raden. There is still a tradition of "sinengker" (people outside kraton may not know), especially about the pusakas. Yes, the English book on Kraton Yogya mentioned some names of legitimate pusakas, like Kanjeng Kiai Joko Piturun (keris) -- the symbol of kraton legitimacy for the heir or Kraton Yogyakarta. You may read also the interesting book of the (Australian) historian MC Ricklefs on "The Missing Pusakas". He mentioned quite a lot of names of Kraton pusakas...

This is what I know:
On pusakas (kerises, tombaks) may be Yogyakarta has better ones, or at least older pusakas. But on arts (dances, music, litterature) Solo is better. What people know abroad on those kind of arts, usually come from Solo. You may find such "karawitan" (Java traditional music) professor as Mr Sumarsam at the Wesleyan University in US. He comes from Solo too. Also DR Rahayu Supanggah, the prominent Javanese musicologist in Indonesia now. He comes from Sragen (formerly Sukawati) in the east of Solo..

For me, both -- Solo and Yogya -- gave their share for the development of the Javanese culture. Personally, I am solonese. But most of my collections are Yogyanese. And I love Yogya style too, I love the simplicity -- Yogyanese philosophy in their kerises...

Ganjawulung

[Marcokeris]

Dear Ganja
I agree with you about semplicity in Yogya keris (mainly for pendok and sarong ....in my opinion gayaman with its "free -from -angles form" has, like an egg, a great balance and elegance).

Please, could you explain in depth about "keris besutan"?

Marco

[ganjawulung]

Please, could you explain in depth about "keris besutan"?

Marco
Dear Marco,
The edge of old keris, is usually "serrated" (pls correct me, if I used the wrong English term), because of age, and corrosion. In Solo, the practice of "mbesut" (smoothen the serrated edge, reshape the blade) is permitted. Of course, by the specialist of it. Matang is a wellknown specialist of mbesut practice in Kraton Solo. You may call, such old but reshaped keris as "keris besutan" or "keris larasan".

So, "mbesut" or "nglaras" (verb) keris, contains intention of reshaping, beautifying the corroded keris edge -- of course, without heat treatment. But for they who don't agree with such practice, may call such reshaped keris as "keris ongotan" (negative meaning). Ongotan means "sharpened", like pencil. (True) yogyanese, doesn't practice this...

This is only my simple opinion...

Ganjawulung

[PenangsangII]

Pak Ganja,

Which one of these two schools - Solo & Yogja, follow the tradition of old schools of say, Mataram era? I believe that I read it somewhere that Sultan Agung's time was actually the keris golden era.

And another stupid question, according to tangguhan, original dapor pasopati was created during which era?

[ganjawulung]

Which one of these two schools - Solo & Yogja, follow the tradition of old schools of say, Mataram era? I believe that I read it somewhere that Sultan Agung's time was actually the keris golden era.

And another stupid question, according to tangguhan, original dapor pasopati was created during which era?
Dear Penangsang,

Both "schools" follow most of the old tradition, and only different in certain aspects (sometimes totally different). In certain sense, Solo school is more modern. If you are interested in keris making, then you must be "solo-scholar"... Solonese modern keris-making (technically) is much better than Yogya. There are more solonese keris makers than yogyanese nowadays. "Yogya school' has more appreciation on old style of keris (originality is more important), and also spiritual experience...

In warangka (sheath) and appearance, solonese kerises are more glamour if not luxurious. (Warangka studded with diamonds and gems, and gold pendhok etc)...

For collectors, it is interesting to collect both "nom-noman" (new) style of their kerises. You may compare, the nom-noman Paku Buwanan vs Hamengku Buwanan. Very interesting, really worth to compare. (So, ideally, you must be both scholar --solonese and yogyanese).

About dhapur Pasopati, I don't have any clue who first created that dhapur. It only was told in old keris literature, that most of kerises that were made by Empu Setratoya (in Mataram period), had dhapur sabuk inten (luk 13), dhapur carita, dhapur kalamisani and dhapur pasopati. Empu Setratoya had some other names in different kingdoms. He was named too as Jaka Supa, the son of the famous Majapahit empu, Supamandrangi (Pangeran Sendang Sedayu).

Empu Setratoya or Jaka Supa, in the Demak period named as Empu Macan, in Pajang period as Empu Kodok and then Empu Toendoeng. And in Mataram era, as Empu Setratoya...

The two pusakas of Kraton Yogyakarta, named as Kanjeng Kiai Lindri and also Kanjeng Kiai Naga, bear dhapur pasopati (straight keris, with two sogokan, but with kembang kacang pogok or short sekar kacang...)

Ganjawulung

[Marcokeris]

Thanks Ganja.
Last question: during "mbesut" there are no problem with the pattern of original pamor?

[ganjawulung]

Last question: during "mbesut" there are no problem with the pattern of original pamor?
No, Marco. No problem with the pattern of the original pamor. The "ahli besut" did not change the pattern of pamor. But the form -- especially the luks, the curves -- changed a little bit. Like I told you before, they changed the tip of the blade, from usually the type of "nyujen" (very sharp point), to "mbuntut tumo" (the tail of louse), or change the "dha" of the greneng to flat (no more greneng). It could mean also, that you could no more change the tip back to nyujen anymore. (in another words, once become the solonese pusaka, will never be yogyanese pusaka anymore...) So, now you know the philosophy behind the besutan, related to their past history

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, you tell us that "Both "schools" follow most of the old tradition---"

I find this to be intensely interesting information. In the sense of the question that generated your response we must accept "old" in this context as dating from the time of the Mataram Era. This era stretched over a considerable period, but if we date it from , for example, the time of Sultan Agung, we are talking circa 1640.

Is this how you intend your response to be understood, or are we looking at a slightly different date?

Whatever date we are taking as the date that would apply to the time of the "old schools", would you please be so kind as provide a reference?

Even if that reference is to come from an oral tradition, can you link that oral tradition to a person or source that predates, say, 1800?

Actually, I have found much of what you have written in the posts made to this thread to be very interesting, and more than once I have had to stop myself from dashing into print. However,I think I have probably reached the point where I need to provide a slightly different perspective in respect of some matters that you have raised.

In my experience I have found that a blade point will only be changed to mbuntut tumo in very select circumstances. It is far from general practice. Perhaps the best known sponsor of this change to mbuntut tumo is a very famous and very wealthy keris connoisseur who holds an elevated rank in the Surakarta Kraton. It is not a practice that is applied to every old blade that needs to be maintained.

Of course, the smoothing of a blade edge is maintenance, as a blade which does not have its edges smoothed will deteriorate more rapidly than one which has been correctly maintained.Correct maintenance of a blade contributes to preservation of the cultural inheritance of Jawa. Failure to correctly maintain items of cultural heritage eventually results in the disappearance of that heritage.

If I think back over your posts , I believe I can recall several occasions when you have provided the information that Jogjakarta selected the "older style" of keris, whilst Surakarta opted for a more modern approach.

In fact, when Jawa was partitioned, and the Kraton of Jogjakarta needed to select a keris style, they clearly wished to differentiate that style from the existing style that was already in vogue in Surakarta. The Surakarta style of keris , even down to today, displays the inheritance of Majapahit, and some of the distinctive features that we today recognise as indicative of Surakarta, were already in evidence in the dominant style of Kartosuro.As you would be aware, during the Kartosuro period there was an increase in intensity of Javanese values amongst the elite of the realm. It is possible that this increased "Javaneseness" that arose during the Kartosuro Era, contributed to the alteration in style of the keris in Kartosuro, when compared with the keris style that exemplified Mataram.

Thus, when Jogjakarta opted for a keris style displaying some of the features of the Mataram style of keris, they were in fact opting for a style that displayed features associated with a more recent period than that which was already in vogue in Surakarta. Naturally, this was considered to be only fitting, as Jogjakarta was clearly the more recent kingdom, thus it should use the more recent style:- Mataram.

This is similarly reflected in the titles which apply to the ruler of Jogjakarta, and the ruler of Surakarta. The title in Surakarta was, and is, "Susuhunan", which is a Javanese term. The title in Jogjakarta was agreed upon as "Sultan", which is not a Javanese term, but an Islamic term. It appears that at the time Mangkubumi agreed to use the term Sultan, he considered that it was a fitting title for the ruler of a kingdom that had been partitioned from another.

A study of the way in which both Jogjakarta and Surakarta developed following partition will demonstrate that the values in Jogjakarta tended to be orientated towards Islamic values, whilst the values in Surakarta tended more towards traditional Javanese values.

As has been frequently mentioned , the Jogjakarta keris style is somewhat more restrained than the Surakarta style. This is evidence of the dictum of the "plain man" which is predominantly an Islamic, rather than a Javanese trait. On the other hand, Surakarta style in many ways retains the exuberance of the original Javanese style, as demonstrated in pre-Islamic art, and developed through to the present time in the flamboyant style of Bali.

So, when we try to reconcile, or to understand, the basic differences between Jogjakarta style, and Surakarta style, we really need to go back to Sultan Agung and his taking of this title.Rather than seeing Jogjakarta style as a reflection of "old", or "traditional" Javanese style, it is as well to consider the part that Islam played in formation of the original Second Kingdom of Mataram, and how this same influence came to bear upon the values which came into play upon the formation of Jogjakarta.

It is sometimes overlooked that during the early part of his reign, PBII was strongly Islamic in his orientation. Of course, as his reign progressed and he became less and less able to fulfil his duties effectively, his orientation turned around completely and he died at an early age with a Dutchman as his most trusted advisor. Bad period in Javanese history. However, it seems probable that one of the contributing factors to the move by many of the elites towards Javanese values, following the disaster that was PBII, can be sheeted home to the rise of Islam during the early years of PBII's reign. It seems that it was felt that society and the court had become too Islamic, and that fortunes could be changed by a move back towards a traditional Javanese value system.

It is very easy to look at superficial differences and make pronouncements that seem to reflect what can easily be observed, however, when just a little investigation of causes and influences is carried out, a somewhat different opinion is able to be formed. So it is that when we consider the forces in play at the time of, and leading up to, the partition of Jawa, we are left with evidence that demonstrates that Jogjakarta is the guardian and promoter of the "new" Jawa:- Jawa after the coming of Islam, whilst Surakarta's orientation is a continuation of Javanese traditional values, and the reconciliation of those values with the new faith.

The more recent events involving Jogjakarta and Surakarta, which have taken place since the Japanese occupation, become much more easily understood when the differences in character between Jogjakarta and its ruler, and Surakarta its ruler are understood as a reflection of the forces that gave rise to the formation of the two kingdoms and the value systems which apply within these two entities.

Coming back to keris style, we must remember that much of the lavish adornment that is so much a part of present day Surakarta keris style has its roots in the era of PBX. This was a time when Surakarta was more than a little wealthy, and PBX seemed to think it was his God-given duty display this wealth---and more.

According to legend, the mpu who first made a keris of dapur pasopati was Mpu Ramadi in the Javanese year 152

[ferrylaki]

I'd like to share this keris besutan that I found in Surakarta.
seem that the pamor is still in good pattern in the sempaner keris.
But there is a change in tilam upih keris, it become nunggak semi.

[PenangsangII]

Thank you so much Pak Ganja & Alan. Very well said explanation, as always, though I have no idea how to guess what year exactly is Jawanese year 152....

Regarding keris mbesut, as I understand it is an act of resharpening or reconstructing worn out blade, while in normal condition no one would resharpen a keris blade. However, I was shown a keris by a Malay Pandai Keris that there is actually one type of keris that needs to be resharpened every now and then. He called the keris as Keris Kilir that originates from a Malaysian state of Perak. Kilir in Malay means to sharpen. The original profile should not change at all, but the keris itself must be sharp all the time. The keris dapor can be straight or wavy, but I believe the besi used in forging the blade that qualifies to be called keris kilir or otherwise. Very rare but it exists. I'm not sure whether there is any such keris from the rest of the archipelago.

[A. G. Maisey]

152 Saka would be around 230 AD in the Gregorian calendar.

[ganjawulung]

... Thus, when Jogjakarta opted for a keris style displaying some of the features of the Mataram style of keris, they were in fact opting for a style that displayed features associated with a more recent period than that which was already in vogue in Surakarta. Naturally, this was considered to be only fitting, as Jogjakarta was clearly the more recent kingdom, thus it should use the more recent style:- Mataram.

This is similarly reflected in the titles which apply to the ruler of Jogjakarta, and the ruler of Surakarta. The title in Surakarta was, and is, "Susuhunan", which is a Javanese term. The title in Jogjakarta was agreed upon as "Sultan", which is not a Javanese term, but an Islamic term. It appears that at the time Mangkubumi agreed to use the term Sultan, he considered that it was a fitting title for the ruler of a kingdom that had been partitioned from another.

A study of the way in which both Jogjakarta and Surakarta developed following partition will demonstrate that the values in Jogjakarta tended to be orientated towards Islamic values, whilst the values in Surakarta tended more towards traditional Javanese values.

As has been frequently mentioned , the Jogjakarta keris style is somewhat more restrained than the Surakarta style. This is evidence of the dictum of the "plain man" which is predominantly an Islamic, rather than a Javanese trait. On the other hand, Surakarta style in many ways retains the exuberance of the original Javanese style, as demonstrated in pre-Islamic art, and developed through to the present time in the flamboyant style of Bali.

Dear Alan,

Everytime, if we discuss about the style of Solo and Yogya – in keris, for instance, or in wayang, or their traditional dresses – we must be prepared to a “never ending” discussion. These two “schools” are so dichotomic. But anyhow, discussing Solo vs Yogya is always interesting for me…

Apologize me, Alan, not to discuss in a ‘chronological’ way. But I try to response your questions and statements (that need further explanation from you) erratically. This not just mere “word-game”. But beyond… These are about values in Jogjakarta, that according to you, tended to be orientated towards Islamic values, whilst the values in Surakarta tended more towards traditional values, back to Majapahit. And you mention too, about the title of the Solo ruler, Susuhunan – that sounds more Javanese to you, and Sultan that sounds Arabic.

Don’t you think that actually both titles are Islamic? Please regard further, that the empire of Susuhunan is “kasunanan”, and not “kasusuhunanan”. And of Sultan, is “kasultanan”. Susuhunan is also called Sunan. Susuhunan Paku Buwono (PB) II for instance, also called as Sunan Kombul (rules in the year of 1670-1674), or Susuhunan PB III alias Sunan Suwarga, and Susuhunan PB X alias Sunan Sawarga, PB XI Sunan Hangabehi… But all Hamengku Buwonos are sultans.

Sunan and Sultan, are titles to differ, whether the ruler is in Yogyakarta Sultanate, or Kingdom of Surakarta. You may compare too, back to the era of Islamic kingdom of Demak (1500-1548). During Demak era, there was Sultan Trenggono – one of Raden Patah’s son. But almost in the same era but in different part of Java, in the other Islamic kingdom of Cirebon, there was Sunan Gunung Jati.

As you know, all the “nine wali” (walisongo) – the Islamic religious leaders in the 15-16th century -- bore the Sunan title too: Sunan Bonang, Sunan Giri, Sunan Kudus, Sunan Muria, Sunan Kalijaga… etc A Sunni leader in Turki, Mahmoud of Ghazni, also called Sunan too (998-1030 AD).

Or you may see the predicate, both for Susuhunan or Sultan. Susuhunan Paku Buwono, for instance, his formal name is always “Sampeyan Dalem Ingkang Sinuhun Kanjeng Susuhunan Paku Buwono ing Ngalaga Senopati Ngabdurrachman Sayidin Panatagama” (His Majesty Susuhunan Paku Buwono – Commander in Chief, Leader of Islamic religion and society). Or Sultan, that always bears formal names as “Sultan Hamengku Buwono Senopati ing Ngalaga Ngabdurrachman Sayidin Panatagama Kalifatollah” (Sultan Hamengku Buwono, commander in chief, Leader of Islamic religion and Society).

Both, were Islamic, continuing the tradition of Mataram (Panembahan Senopati in Ngalaga, was the founder of Mataram Kingdom, ruled in 1575-1601), but in different clothes… You may look at their formal dresses, royal dresses. Solonense formal dress for reception, named as “beskap” – derived from the Dutch word ‘beschaaft’ that means ‘civilized’. Newly design of Javanese dress, that has dutch influence. While Jogjakarta has the “old” (I mean, before “palihan nagari’ or Gianti Treaty 1755. Not “old” style, Mataram style. The Jogja’s dress named as “sorjan”, real Javanese name, and maintained the traditional Mataram dress…

In the old days, (I remember) Solonese proudly said “beskap” (beschaaft) to say, that Solonese dress is “more civilized” than Jogjanese “sorjan” that looks “ndeso” or rural, pagan, villageois... And I remember too, the Jogjanese used to say proudly too, "hmm, we are Mataram(ese)", not dutch...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, before I respond to your post on titles, I feel that I must say this:- my expertise does not lay in all of the areas upon which I may comment. My expertise, and indeed, my professional foundation, lays in finding the answers to questions by accessing the knowledge of others.

So, if I say that the word "sultan" is Islamic, and "susuhunan" is Javanese, this is not my opinion formed from hearing or reading these words, rather, it is information lifted from the work of people whose job it is to know about language , and about history. All I do is repeat the knowledge of others who are recognised authorities in a particular field, I do not hold myself forth as any sort of an expert.

So let us now look at the three titles you have commented upon.

Sultan Agung was the first in Jawa to use this title of Sultan, from memory, I think he sought it from the Sultan of Turkey, which personage was at that time the only one in Islam permitted to bestow the title. He did not use the title until quite late in his reign.

In modern Indonesian the title of "sunan" has two meanings:- it is the title of the holy men who first brought Islam to Jawa, and it is a title of the ruler of Surakarta.

The roots of the word "sunan" are Islamic, not Javanese.It is a word first used as the title of Islamic holy men, and then later adopted by the premier ruler in Jawa.

The word "susuhunan" is similarly a title of the ruler of Surakarta, however, it lacks the Islamic association that is possessed by the words "sunan", and "sultan".

Thus, in usage the title "susuhunan" reflects Jawa, and the title "sunan" reflects Islam.

At the time of the partition of Jawa PBIII was known by the title of "susuhunan". In Hartingh's negotiations with Mangkubumi prior to the signing of the treaty, the matter of title was the first one that was discussed and settled. It was agreed that it would be inappropriate to have two Susuhunans Pakubuwana, so the title of Sultan Mataram was proposed and was accepted by both sides. Mangkubumi pointed out that three sultans ruled in Cirebon, and that two sultans had ruled in Mataram and in Pajang in the 16th century.Mangkubumi put forth the argument that the Javanese language knew no other title with the same significance, seemingly implying that this title of sultan was particularly appropriate for a divided kingdom.(Jogjakarta Under Sultan Mangkubumi--Ricklefs).

It is important that we recognise the distinction I am making between the value systems which applied in the new kingdom under Mangkubumi, and in the old kingdom under Pakubuwana, and that have developed into the shades of difference that we can see today.

At no time have I said, nor implied, that Jogjakarta was Islamic and that Surakarta was Javanese, and that by adoption of these values they each automatically excluded the other ideological values. What I said was that Surakarta's orientation was towards traditional Javanese values, whilst Jogjakarta's orientation was towards Islamic values.

Use of the word "orientation" indicates a tendency, it does not indicate a hard-line committment. So you have the situation where those elites who supported Mangkubumi were undoubtedly and beyond argument Javanese, but they, and Mangkubumi himself , had the tendency to maintain a firm committment to the Islamic values that had arisen during the Kartosuro period. Since he had assumed the title of "sultan", this in itself reinforced the connection with the first Sultan of Jawa, Sultan Agung, with the Islamic Sultans of the North Coast, and of Pajang. Sultan Mangkubumi was the "new man". He represented progress whilst at the same time continuing a value system that had developed from and been syncretised with, the values of Jawa.

Now, in Surakarta it was a slightly different situation. PBIII was the inheritor of a realm in ruins, and bear in mind:- he only inherited it at the will of the Dutch. The elites who had maintained their committment to PBIII had endured the Kartosuro period--- one might say that they endured it "up close and personal"--- they were more than aware of the changes that had taken place in Kartosuro under PBII, and were undoubtedly aware of the role played by Ratu Pakubuwana in the promotion of Islamic ideologies within the court. This strengthening of Islamic ideologies within the court of Kartosuro tended to alienate the court, and the elites, from the common people.

After the partition, court ideologies in Surakarta tended towards a restoration of the ideologies that would realign the court with the common people. Apart from anything else, this gathering of the abangan to the bosom of the court was a political necessity to permit the continuation of the realm. At the same time, the Susuhunan of Surakarta was in the very difficult position of only maintaining his position with the agreement of the Dutch, who in fact had by this time assumed the position of overlords. The Javanese perspective of the Dutch Governor General at this time was that he was another ruler within Jawa, but the most powerful ruler within Jawa.

Jogjakarta had been formed from a combination of rebellion and Dutch manipulation, whilst Surakarta had been permitted to remain as the result of Dutch political expediency. The feeling in each of the courts differed in that one saw itself as having been established through force, the other knew that its continued existence depended upon cooperation with the Dutch. So it came about that Surakarta developed a tendency to more readily absorb Dutch ideas, whilst at the same time attempting to foster a return to the agrarian roots of the Javanese heartland.

Surakarta had already learnt what could happen with an over committment to an ideology that was at variance with the ideology of the common people, and additionally Surakarta had the experience of the strength and the deceit of the Dutch overlords. It could be said that the Surakarta elites had been through an educational process.

Of course, the Jogjakarta elites had been through an educational process too, but the result in Jogjakarta was widely different to the result in Surakarta.

The result of these differences today is that Jogjakarta is Javanese with a court ideology and a more general system of values that has a strong thread of Islamic ideology running through it. Surakarta is Javanese with a court ideology that has attempted a syncretistic approach of amalgamation of Javanese, Dutch, and Islamic ideologies. Both courts, and both demographic areas of influence are Javanese; both are Islamic, however one has a stronger orientation than the other towards the ideologies of Islam (as it is practiced in Jawa), and one has a stronger orientation than the other towards the native Javanese ideologies of the abangan---with of course, greater evidence of European influence.

I did not say that Surakarta "--- tended to traditional values, back to Majapahit---".
What I said was "---The Surakarta style of keris , even down to today, displays the inheritance of Majapahit,---", and I also said "--- the values in Surakarta tended more towards traditional Javanese values.---"
Two different statements, and in different contexts, that should not be taken from their original contexts and combined.

Both courts demonstrate the acknowledged Javanese trait of syncretism, but one has tended in one direction, the other has tended in a slighly different direction. Both are of course of the House of Mataram, but let us not forget, that the trunk of that tree of Mataram is Surakarta. Jogjakarta, The Mangkunegaraan, The Pakualamanan, are branches from that tree, and in the case of the Pakualamanan, a branch from a branch.

In essence , Pak Ganja, I feel that we are in broad agreement on this matter. I do not agree that there is a dichotomy, or completely opposed nature in either of the two courts, nor in the two demographic areas. Both are simply different expressions of the same culture.Different expressions created by different roots and different experience.

I know that you are an enthusiastic supporter of the work of Prof. Ricklefs. I suggest a close reading of "Jogjakarta Under Sultan Mangkubumi, 1749-1792", "The Seen and Unseen Worlds of Java, 1726-1749", "War Culture and Economy in Java, 1677-1726". Most of what I have written during this discussion can be supported by reference to these works.

I am still waiting for your references relating to the "old schools", and exactly how you intended the dating of "Mataram" to be understood.

[PenangsangII]

Pak Ganja, Pak Raden, Alan

I am glad that this topic is discussed in depth. History is another passion of mine, and in Tanah Jawa context, the post Demak era.

You see, most of my history lesson came from my late grandfather, who belonged to the 2nd wave of immigrants from Tanah Jawa to Tanah Melayu (peninsula). The 1st wave was in the 15th C, during the Malaccan Sultanate, whereby many Jawanese & Buginese were hired by the Malaccan Kingdom as professional soldiers (mercenaries?). The 2nd wave took place in the 16th C when many Jawanese soldiers who served Adipati Yunus in his crusade to free Malacca from the Portuguese occupation, chose to stay in the peninsula. The 3rd wave was as a result of Jaka Tingkir's hagemony thruout Tanah Jawa, while the 4th wave (economic immigrants) was in the 19th C.

My grandfather might have been biased (and could have been wrong too) in saying that when Sultan Trenggono chose Jaka Tingkir as his successor, the wahyu keprabhon was lost forever, hence he never told me any stories post Demak era. According to him, the glorious empire of Majapahit & Demak disintergrated because Tanah Jawa was ruled by commonners (Jaka Tingkir) and subsequently by senopaten blood line.

Thus, by having the discussion here, esp pertaining to Jawanese kingdom post kartosuro, has seriously changed my perspective with regards to Tanah Jawa history, the land where my ancestors blood was spilt. Please continue the discussion. Thank you.

PenangsangII

[A. G. Maisey]

It can be an interesting exercise to trace the bloodlines of the current House of Mataram back to their origins. I will not comment further on this.

When I read Javanese history I constantly have the feeling that Mario Puzo must have been a student of Javanese history.Of course, he claimed to be a student of the history of the Mafia, but I suspect that he had really studied the history of Jawa.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

The word "susuhunan" is similarly a title of the ruler of Surakarta, however, it lacks the Islamic association that is possessed by the words "sunan", and "sultan".


dear Gonjo and Alan,

allow me to contibute for this discussion and please correct me if I do a mistake.

Sultan, sunan and susuhunan refer to islamic words.

The rootword of Susuhunan is Sunan. The repetition of SUSUhunan means superlative. Implicit meaning of Susuhunan is THE GREATest SUNAN or SUNAN the GREAT. The pure repetition must be SUSUNAN (instead of susuHunan). Why using H? Because "H" in this case is to show that the users come from High Elevated People in Jawa society, e.g:
ADI becoming hADI
ARGO = hARGO
ANOMAN = hANOMAN

So, there is no strong evidence either Surakarta or Solo if one of them claims inheriting Mojopahit (just based on the different title of its king: Susuhunan and Sultan). However, if there is opinion both of them were influenced deeply by Majapahit culture. Perhaps, it was true. It was because Mataram (before devided becoming 2 or 4) represented "indigenous" people. Indigenous means old/Majapahit culture. Thats why Mataram's Sunan was Sunan Kalijogo (the only Sunan came from indigenous people, others Sunan were overseas: arabic, chinese, etc).

According to a word of WALISONGO. Wali means priest/Sunan/messenger. Songo means Nine. However, imho, Walisongo does not means the NINE WALIs. Why? If we count the number of Walis in Jawa, it will not be NINE. If we read the history of Jawa, especially the begining of Islamic era, All Walis were not in the same generation. Part of them were son or even grandson of others. So Walisongo = NINE WALIs is anachronism.

imho, again, the rootword of Walisongo is Jawa language. It comes from WALI SANG HO(ha). Wali still means messenger/priest/Sunan. HO(ha) is the first word of Jawa alphabetic: HO NO CO RO KO (ha na ca ra ka). In arabic word, the first word is ALIF. Some Jawa-Islamic scholars believe that ALIF is the symbol of singularity. It is the symbol of GOD (Allah). Meanwhile, HO in Jawa, it represents HOM(aum, om) for Jawa-Hindhu beleiver. Ho/Om/Aum is the ultimate power holder.
So... WALISONGO means WALI SANG HO means WALI SANG ALIF means WALIYULLAH means "the messenger of God"

It is tricky way of (Sunans of) Jawa. How did they do to transform the OLD VALUE (hindhuism) to the NEW VALUE (islam). From the OLD GOD to the NEW GOD. Anyway, this is just my opinion... the very ordinary people who spent his childhood in JAWA.

warm salam,

Usman

[ganjawulung]

I find this to be intensely interesting information. In the sense of the question that generated your response we must accept "old" in this context as dating from the time of the Mataram Era. This era stretched over a considerable period, but if we date it from , for example, the time of Sultan Agung, we are talking circa 1640.

Is this how you intend your response to be understood, or are we looking at a slightly different date?

Whatever date we are taking as the date that would apply to the time of the "old schools", would you please be so kind as provide a reference?

Even if that reference is to come from an oral tradition, can you link that oral tradition to a person or source that predates, say, 1800?


Dear Alan and all,

On periodisation, there is no one word between “solo school” and “jogja school” to fix which was the “fixed pole” period of “nom-noman” or “nem-neman” (young period of keris making), until nowadays. You may look at these recent keris-book writers such as Bambang Harsrinuksmo and Haryono Haryoguritno for instance.

Haryono – which I consider as “solo school” – mentioned in his recent book (Keris Jawa, Antara Mistik dan Nalar) that “keris kuno” (old keris) is keris from 17th century and older, while “nom-noman” is keris from 18th (and of course, younger than 18th century). He based this periodisation on the process of the keris making.

Old kerises, according to Mr Haryono, had a different phase of purification of bijih besi. The younger keris is made from such material which its bijih besi was processed by “tanur tinggi” (please consider this technical term, which I only know the Indonesian term). So the periodisation is not based on historical background, but on the making of kerises.

While Mr Harsrinuksmo – which I consider neither “solo school” or “jogja school” – said in his known Ensiklopedi, that keris which categorized as nom-noman is based on period of era in history. May I quote from his book, as this:

“In Surakarta, which classified as kerises nom-noman are kerises or tombak (spears) which were made during the reigning of Sunan Paku Buwono IX and X. While in Jogjakarta, Hamengku Buwono VII and VIII.”

As you know, PB IX reigned in Solo 1861-1893, and PB X 1893-1939. While Sultan Jogja, HB VII 1877-1921, and HB VIII 1921-1939…

Which classification would you use? I don’t have such credible knowledge, which source from 1800s. I just based on my simple knowledge on historical periodisation. Old school “ended” in Majapahit era, and then “madya” (medium old) era of Demak, Pajang, Mataram until Gianti Treaty of 1755. After 1755, then began the “new era” of “nom-noman”. Keris, for me is not just keris. But it bears also the inside value, moral value etc. And those values, changed quite radically for the Javanese community, since the treaty was signed by Nicholaas Hartingh – on behalf of Mataram Surakarta and the European Company VOC – and Pangeran Mangkubumi. The Javanese values were changing so much since…


Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

According to legend, the mpu who first made a keris of dapur pasopati was Mpu Ramadi in the Javanese year 152
So, dhapur pasopati is older than the form of dhapur (jalak) budo?

[ganjawulung]

I'd like to share this keris besutan that I found in Surakarta.
seem that the pamor is still in good pattern in the sempaner keris.
But there is a change in tilam upih keris, it become nunggak semi.
Dear Ferrylaki,

I don't think that your beautiful "tunggak semi" is a changing form of beras wutah because of "besutan". I think that the maker, by intention made the "tunggak semi" pamor.

Don't believe it? I have a similar blade as yours, with "tunggak semi" pamor too. And this kind of pamor is one of the favorite choice in Solo and Jogja. So, if you don't want anymore your tunggak semi, please send to my address, I will take care of it with much pleasure... :)

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

I am glad that this topic is discussed in depth. History is another passion of mine, and in Tanah Jawa context, the post Demak era.

Dear Penangsang,

You have the specialist on it, MC Ricklefs. Please regard the book, "A History of Modern Indonesia Since c 1200". It has been published since 1981, 1993, 2001 (Palgrave), and in Indonesian language 2005 "Sejarah Indonesia Modern 1200-2004" (Serambi)...

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

It is tricky way of (Sunans of) Jawa. How did they do to transform the OLD VALUE (hindhuism) to the NEW VALUE (islam). From the OLD GOD to the NEW GOD. Anyway, this is just my opinion... the very ordinary people who spent his childhood in JAWA.

warm salam,

Usman
Dear Raden,
Does it sounds as true "jogja school"? :) Thanks for your sharing...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you very much for your explanation in respect of nom-noman keris, Pak Ganja. An interesting, and I consider more or less accurate explanation of these keris, however it does not address the matter to which I was referring.

In earlier posts you had explained how the smoothing of a blade edge and general improvement of blade condition was an acceptable practice in Solo, but was considered to be unacceptable in Jogja.

On Sept 1, and directly following your explanation of the different attitudes which apply in respect of blade maintenance as carried out in Jogja and in Solo, Penangsang II asked this question:-

Pak Ganja,

Which one of these two schools - Solo & Yogja, follow the tradition of old schools of say, Mataram era? I believe that I read it somewhere that Sultan Agung's time was actually the keris golden era.

I understood Penangsang's question to relate to the matter which had come directly before the question, that is:- in the matter of blade maintenance, including the smoothing of the edges of a blade, which of the two schools of Jogja and Solo, follow the traditions of the older schools, for instance that tradition which applied during Mataram era?

Now, it could be that I totally misunderstood the question that Penangsang asked. Perhaps he was asking about how to classify a nom-noman blade, but although I have read and re-read your posts, and Penangsang II's posts several times, I can still only extract the interpretation that I have given it.

On Sept 1 you responded to Penangsang:-

Both "schools" follow most of the old tradition, and only different in certain aspects (sometimes totally different). In certain sense, Solo school is more modern.


Now, since Penangsang II had already used Mataram as his applicable era, then naturally your response must be read to refer to Mataram.

It is this exchange between you and Penangsang II that has caught my interest, and has generated my question to you:-

Pak Ganja, you tell us that "Both "schools" follow most of the old tradition---"

I find this to be intensely interesting information. In the sense of the question that generated your response we must accept "old" in this context as dating from the time of the Mataram Era. This era stretched over a considerable period, but if we date it from , for example, the time of Sultan Agung, we are talking circa 1640.

Is this how you intend your response to be understood, or are we looking at a slightly different date?

Whatever date we are taking as the date that would apply to the time of the "old schools", would you please be so kind as provide a reference?

Even if that reference is to come from an oral tradition, can you link that oral tradition to a person or source that predates, say, 1800?

As I said, perhaps I misunderstood what Penangsang II meant by his question.I would be the first to admit that asking and answering questions in a language other than one's own native language can be very difficult. However, if I did understand the intent of the question correctly, and perhaps PenangsangII would kind enough to clarify this matter, do you think that perhaps you, Pak Ganja, could provide an answer to my question?

Thank you.

[PenangsangII]

I know that the way I put in the question was quite confusing, as I am on numerous occassions confused too.

Actually when I asked which one of the Solo or Jogja schools follow the old tradition, I was suggesting that we base the date of reference to the Mataram II era, whereby it was said to be the keris golden era. As for Majapahit era or earlier, there was not enough information for us to make reference to WRT keris. But, if there is more information on keris during Majapahit time, I would be very happy to accept the term "old school" as Majapahit era.

Pls feel free to ask me to rephrase my question if the above explanation is still confusing...

[A. G. Maisey]

I thank you for your interest in this discussion Pak Raden, and I am honoured by your request to correct you, should you err. However, the only correction I wish to offer is to correct your misconception that I am sufficiently skilled in use of the Javanese language to correct anybody for errors made in this language.As I have remarked previously, I lack skills and knowledge in so many areas, perhaps my only ability is the ability to access the knowledge of others.

However, I feel that I need to draw attention to some aspects of the word "susuhunan"

This word has not a single meaning, but several, depending upon the context.

It can mean :-

an Islamic regulation or instruction. When used in this context lexicographers give its origin as Arabic

However, it can also mean:- (junjungan) one who is esteemed; adoration; a pole for climbing plants; a formal term for one's husband; and (pujaan) adoration; worship; and the title of the ruler of Surakarta.When used in any of these contexts, lexicographers give it as a Javanese word, without acknowledging an Arabic origin.As a Javanese word, used as a title for the ruler of Surakarta, its meaning is to be understood as "he who is adored".

It does not seem to appear in Old Javanese or Kawi, so it is probably safe to assume that it is a new word that appeared after the Javanese language began to develop its modern hierarchical form. Both as a word of acknowledged Arabic origin, and as a word regarded as uniquely Javanese, it has no root; in both cases it is a stand alone word.

When we speak of the "root" of a word, we mean the word which is the base form of the word being examined, for example:- from the root "picak"(blind), we have micak---to pretend to be blind, or to doze off; micaki or micakake---to blind someone, or to ignore someone.

Thus, the word "sunan" is not the root of "susuhunan", however, it could perhaps be the word from which "susuhunan" developed. But if this is the case, it would seem to me that philologists and lexicographers would attribute this word to an Arabic source, rather than allowing it to stand as purely Javanese.

Raden, I find your analysis of the word "susuhunan" interesting, but I must put the question to you:- is this your own theory on the way in which the word "susuhunan" may have been formed from the word "sunan", or can you quote a reliable philological or lexicographic source?

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your further clarification Penangsang, but if I may, I would like to ask you this:-

was it your intention to ask which of the two schools, ie, Solo and Jogja, observed most closely the old tradition of keris maintenance, as it applied in Mataram, or if you wish Majapahit, or any other era.

When you refer to "the tradition of the old schools", are you referring to the tradition of methods used in blade maintenance, or are you referring to some other tradition?

This is the crux of the matter, and what may have been misunderstood by me.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Raden, I find your analysis of the word "susuhunan" interesting, but I must put the question to you:- is this your own theory on the way in which the word "susuhunan" may have been formed from the word "sunan", or can you quote a reliable philological or lexicographic source?

Alan,

Specific to a word "susuhunan", it is blindly my own intepretation. Now, I am in Africa. I do not have any opportunities to check it to old Jawa person before posting here. However, I do not intepret a word "susuhunan" without any foundation. There are both lexicography and philosophy.

Lexicography
Repetition used in Jawa language for several purposes. One of them is to intensifying (even to make superlative). I want to reveal other words for example:
Lembut (Jawa) means soft
Lelembut (Jawa) means extremely soft
then... Jawa people used word "LELEMBUT" to describe "GHOST as general" because they believe the characteristic of matter of Ghosts is very very soft.

Selo (high Jawa) means stone
Seselo (high Jawa) means a lot of stones
Seselo is the name of place which there are a lot of stone there. This place was a home of the respectful ancestor of Mataram (then both Jogja and Surakarta, or four including Pakualaman and Mangkunegaran). His popular name was Ki Ageng Selo.
Responding to the statement of Penangsang that Mataram dinasty cames from "peasants". It seems the story (history) started from here. To Demak Kingdom or Northern Jawa Coastal Kingdoms, blue bloods means it had to have mixed blood between arabic (including some part of India, Asia Minor and even part of China) blood and majapahit royal line. It can be understood because at that time the hegemony of Islam begun. Simplicity, Arabic blood means the prophet Muhammad blood. He was the real King who had legitimate royal blood line. Selo and his offsprings were pure Jawa. They were considered as ordinary people. Ordinary people who inhabitted in remote/hinter land were PEASANT.
For Selo people, they tried to win the battle of realm politics at that time by making other intepretation. They used Mojopahit as a base of legitimation to rule Jawa. The father of Panembahan Senopati (first ruler of Mataram) was Ki Ageng Mataram. He was son of Ki Ageng Nis, grandson of Ki Ageng Selo, great grandson of (Ki Ageng Bondan Kejawen, Ki Ageng Getas Pendowo, Ki Ageng Lembu Peteng). Ki Ageng Lembu Peteng was son of King Brawijaya the Fifth (the last King of Majapahit Empire) from the cucumbent. According to Selo people point of view and pulled from Majapahit, even not son of the Queen, the royal blood line of Ki Ageng Pendowo was more legitimate (bluer)from Raden Patah of Demak. To integrate to hegemony at that time, Islamic era, Selo also needed GURU. Part of politics, respectful Sunan as Sunan Kudus refused these peasants. So these peasants chose Syeh Siti Jenar. At the end, because conflict of interest (blended politics, power and religion), the fate of Syeh Siti Jenar and his followere were "murdered", including Kebo Kenongo, father of Mas Karebet (wellknown as Joko Tingkir). After that, only Sunan Kalijogo accepted as "their GURU". So, Selo people had complete requirement to show in politic stage at that time (including Joko Tingkir).

Okay... back to Susuhunan for Alan

Philosophy,
King Hanyokrokusumo needed "Islamic" legitimation for ruling Jawa at that time. It was normal pattern of Kingdoms in Jawa. Kind of legitimation was an acknoledgement from the most sacred place/people. According to people at that time, the most sacred place was Mecca. the most sacred people was Rojo (h)ing ngeRum (the emperor of Turkey Ottoman) because Mecca was a province of ngeRum (turkey ottoman empire). King Hanyokrokusumo did not get this acknoledgement. He was very sad because while he did not get acknoledgment, one of his competitor got it (King of Banten). Thats why, Banten had never surrendered freely to King Hanyokrokusomo. And thats why, the use of Sultan came in the end of King Hanyokrowati reign. Even, the use of SULTAN AGUNG came long after his death. BUT, since then, the use of sinonym of KHALIFATULLAH was important in Mataram. Sultan, Sunan, Susuhunan were actually synonim of Khalifatullah. Khalifatullah means the representative of GOD to rule the world (of Jawa as centre of univerve). Why not directly using KHALIFAH. It was to high then could be cursed.

Two acknowledgement needed for ruler of Surakarta and Jogja (especially after Giyanti treaty). First and most important was an acknowlegment from NDORO EYANG KOMPENI (VOC or then DUTCH ADMINISTRATION). Without this acknowledgment, it could be end in abdication (softly or frontally) such as Hamengkubuwono II and VII or Mangkunegoro V. Second and not less important was an acknowlegment from society (moslem). The rebellion of Prince Diponegoro damage severely NDORO TUAN (dutch armies). Prince Diponegoro should be a ruler of Jogjakarta but NDORO TUAN did not acknowlegde/agree. However, the Jawa society (Islamic society) supported him. To sum up, Alan, this is one of explanation why ruler of Jogja and Surakarta need to use islamic term. Then, imho, both Sultan and Sunan are Islamic terms (lexicography and phulosophy).

warm salam,
Usmen

[PenangsangII]

dear Alan,

You are right when you said that I wished that we can base our reference on keris to that of Majapahit, but if that is not possible (due to lack of enough information), I would be glad enough to accept Mataram II as the point of reference. Moreover, during Mataram II era, keris had evolved from its primitive design (Budo, sajen etc) into more refined profile as we see it today. What I meant by "keris tradition" was everything about the keris, from the way it was forged, dapor, pamor, how it was worn, who should wear it, maintenance and other related issues including mbesut. I know that both schools would boast that they are the ones following the correct old tradition, but my question is, between these two schools, which one actually observes the old tradition. Similarly, I can post a relative question: would it be acceptable by Mataram II standard that rusty keris be "besuted"?

Mas Raden, I understand what you were trying to tell us about the blood line. It was not me who said that Mas Karebet was just a peasant (I could be biased too if you take into account my nick name here :D ), but my late grandfather who could trace his linage to the descendants of the 2nd wave immigrants, and my grandmother was from the 3rd wave immigrants. I can understand my grandfather's resentment towards Joko Tingkir appointment as the new Sultan. His great/great grandfather was fighting the foreign power's occupation of Nusantara land, while during / after Demak era, the king/s were busy fighting among themselves. Yes, he was biased, but I am not.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Dear Gonjo, Alan, David, Penangsang and Kerislovers,

I would like to tell a story. Actually, this story fits both for this thread or “Keris and Spirit” thread. So, allow me to post it in both thread. Before starting my story, please after reading this story you will not ask me questions such as “Usmen, can you give me reference for your story?” It is time to me to ask you the reference (if any). Why? Because by asking reference, it likes demanding me to go back to school in Jawa whilst, now, I am in the midst of African jungle.

Let’s begin,

Days ago, I raise a question to Gonjo what kind of pusakas/heirlooms Surakarta Kingdom has (I do not remember the exact question by the way). Moreover, in this thread, some discussion revealed Paliyan Negari (the division of one state becoming two states equally) by Giyanti Treaty.

An actor of Jawa political leader at that time was RADEN MAS SAHID (founder of Mangkunegaran and son in law of PRINCE MANGKUBUMI, founder of Jogjakarta Kingdom). Latter, Raden Mas Sahid (Mas Sahid) was known as MANGKUNEGORO I and Prince Mangkubumi was known as HAMENGKU BUWONO I (HB I).

Mas Sahid’s childhood was very poor and sorry. Actually, he was high elevated person. However, he and his great family members (core and extended) were treated unfairly by the ruler at that time. The occupation of Mas Sahid was to care royal horses in stable. It was way to insult someone from high society at that time.

As a consequence of the treatment received, Mas Sahid did not have access to get “good and modern” education and did not have access to socialize with respectful class member. The most respectfull person who Mas sahid could access was only the Capitan of China named Mas Garendi or Sunan KUNING (?). So, the source of knowledge of Mas Sahid mostly came from AJARs/GURUs. Ajar or Guru had a PADEPOKAN/PAGURON/PERGURUAN. Before modern education spreaded widely in Jawa, ordinary children who want to get education went to padepokan as MURIDs of AJAR/GURU or went to PESANTREN as SANTRIs of KIAI/KYAI.

In padepokan, factuually in Jawa society till now, the legend of Mataram’s founder was preserved well and even cultivated hyperbolically. Before Giyanti’s Paliyan Negari, there were two times of Paliyan Negari in Jawa. The first one was Great Kendiri Kingdom divided into two kingdoms namely: Jenggala and Kediri. The second one was “quasi” Paliyan Negari between KI AGENG MATARAM and KI AGENG PENJAWI after the death of (h)ARYO PENANGSANG and the fall of PAJANG KINGDOM. Forget/abandon the first one (Kediri story) because it was irrelevant for my story now.

After the fall of Pajang, there was “quasi” paliyan negari between Ki Ageng Mataram dan Ki Ageng Penjawi. Kia Ageng Mataram was father of PANEMBAHAN SENOPATI, great grand father of SULTAN AGUNG. Ki Ageng Penjawi was father of PRAGOLOPATI I, grandfather of PRAGOLOPATI II. Pragolopatis were emperors of Pati and northern coastal area of Jawa. During paliyan negari negotiation, Ki Ageng Mataram showed less ambition in choosing territory. He let his foster older brother (Ki Ageng Penjawi) to occupy cultivated land and dense inhabitant and crowded harbour in northern Jawa. He just chose uncultivated land, namely ALAS MENTAOK (mentaok jungle). Even, he did not show his appetite to inherit the wealth of former Pajang Kingdom. In contrary, he demanded at all cost to get Pajang’s heirlooms: kerises, tombaks, kendalis, stones which considered as jimat/pusaka such as NYAI DELIMO (Queen Kalinyamat’s main heirloom).

Why did he choose only Alas Mentaok which strategic and economic perspectives were nothing?
Because in Jawa beliveness, in Alas Mentaok lies down WAHYU KEPRABON of Jawa after the fall of Majapahit. This wahyu had been waiting for its new master.

Why did he choose pusakas?
Having pusakas were part of requirement for preparing himself or his offspring as a proper place for Wahyu Keprabon. By having Wahyu Keprabon, power and wealth would follow behind. Lack of wahyu, every power and wealth would disappear by thousand causes. And historian wrote, Mataram Kingdom rose whilst Pati Empire fall down.

This legend of Mataram’s Founder believed deeply by Mas Said. He used it as a guidance of his path to find his glory. During Giyanti Paliyan Negari, the position of Mas Sahid was both warlord and son in law of Prince Mangkubumi. In negotiation, he advised Prince Mangkubumi to follow his ancestor way. Prince Mangkubumi agreed and follow this idea. He chose Jogjakarta but demanding the main heirlooms such as KIAI PLERED the legendary. At that time, Jogjakarta was transit place for copse of royal family who died somewhere and would buried in IMOGIRI or Surakarta. Compared with Surakarta/Kartosuro, Jogjakarta was far less attractive. However, the legend of Alas Mentaok inspired Father and Son in law. Perhaps, this story can also explain why Jogjakarta has more legendary heirlooms than Solo and why Surakarta palace artifact is more glorious than Jogja palace artifact.

After gaining war and getting Jogjakarta region, Prince Mangkubumi became HAMENGKU BUWONO I (HB I). Becoming HB I means becoming legitimate player. To run kingdom and to play power role at that time, the presence of wealth/money/cash resources was important. HB I felt that important and realized he was lack of those resources. Then, perhaps, he felt to follow Mas Sahid’s advises led to the wrong direction (?) The relationship of father and son in low deteriorated and ended in bitterness. HB I and his former enemy collaborated to attempt to kill Mas Sahid. Since then Mas Sahid started to realized, none can rely on his faith to other, even to beloved father in law. He started to struggle of power solely. Finally, he got what he wanted, a territory for him called Mangkunegaran and he became MANGKUNEGORO I (MN I).

The legacy of HB I (and MN I) of the importance aspect of spirit within pusakas (heirlooms) was so deep amongst Jogjakarta people. Now, it can be understood why spirit aspect of keris/tombak is quite importance for Jogja People. They expect wahyu/spirit inside pusakas (as their ancestor/kingdom founder espected). As Gonjowulung mentioned, Jogjanese/Jogja school/ Jogja genre tends to oppose to “NGLARAS” keris/tombak/pusakas. Why? Because they are afraid if by “DILARAS” keris’s spirit/wahyu/inner power will be downgraded. It is believed if keris/tombak is “fired” (reshaped or other action using fire) the inner power/wakyu/spirit will be corrected (even disappear). Yes, Alan is totally right (technical aspect point of view), by “DILARAS” the deterioration/corrotion of keris will be slower. However, amongst Jogjanese, preservation of keris as intangible heritage comes later. The first and most important is “SPIRIT INSIDE KERIS.

Okay… that is all for now. Hope you enjoy today story. Tomorrow I will bring another tale. But don’t forget…give your donation for orphanage. The small effort from you means a live for them.

Warm salam,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Goodness me, it seems as if we are stuttering here Pak Raden.

Well, as long as you are repeating yourself, I guess I will too.

Good yarn Raden, and not at all the sort of story one could ask for a reference to support. What you have given us is personal experience and personal opinion. No references needed for that.

Actually, prior to Mangkubumi collaborating with Mas Said, they had been opponents, then they came together, but as you have told, eventually they separated again.

This division of Jawa was something that the Dutch saw as a "divide and conquer" move, but what they did not realise was that the division of a kingdom was a relatively normal and regular occurrence in Jawa. In fact, for a long time after the division the ordinary people in Jawa thought that everything was going as usual. Things had always been like this, with two opposing seats of power, and sooner or later one or the other would triumph. Of course, this never happened, because the Dutch were there to keep a lid on things.

Actually the division in Javanese eyes took place a long time before the Dutch were forced to regularise it with the Treaty of Giyanti. Mangkubumi set up his seat of power in the area of present day Jogja in 1749. Its just that it took the Dutch 6 years to recognise it.By the time of Giyanti, Mangkubumi already had the support of most of the Javanese elites, and PBIII's position was weakened even further because those princes who had stayed loyal to Surakarta were arrested by the Dutch. At the time of Giyanti, poor old PBIII had almost no support at all. Because of the nature of Javanese kingship, this effectively meant that PBIII could not be king, as a Javanese king only functions by concensus. He cannot take nor make unilateral decisions, especially in matters of state. This was something that the Dutch did not understand, and was one of the prime reasons for the collapse of PBII. The Dutch saw their support of PBIII as Susuhunan as a continuation of legitimate line of descent. This was a European concept and out of place in Jawa.But the Dutch did not realise this. Had the Dutch not been players in the game none of the disasters of Kartosuro would have occurred, and the court scene in Jawa today would be considerably different to what it is. You might even take the viewpoint that the Jawa of the 19th and 20th centuries was a creation of the Dutch.

Just one very minor thing needs to be made clear from Raden's post:- when a keris blade is subjected to normal maintenance procedures involving cleaning up an edge, or tidying up a ganja or kembang kacang, this is done cold, and it is only done after asking permission of the maker of the blade and any presence which may be inside the blade. We do not just pick the blade up, throw it into a fire, and take to it with hammer, tongs and electric grinder.Correctly carried out it is an almost religious ceremony.

On the other hand, if a blade is to be reworked for commercial reasons, the approach is entirely different.

The simple fact of the matter is that not all blades are of the class that need to treated as the home of an entity; not all blades are the work of an empu; not all blades were made for a specific individual. We need to be able to differentiate between those keris which need to be treated as objects with a presence, and those keris which have no presence.Naturally, if one is unable to identify those keris which possess presence, then the safest thing to do is to treat all keris as if they had a presence.

Yes, I understand very clearly why people in Jogja act as they do.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Penangsang. Understood.

I think the ball is in Pak Ganja's court now:-

Pak Ganja, can you please tell us whether it is the Surakarta school of "kerisology", or the Jogjakarta school of "kerisology" that follows most closely the traditions of olden times, be those olden times taken as Majapahit, Mataram, or some other era?

[PenangsangII]

Dear Pak Raden,

Of all the places in Tanah Jawa, why Hutan Menataok is chosen by God as the resting place of the Wahyu Keprabon. I always thought that Wahyu Keprabon was only a sign from the Dewata, normally in the form of a light, and it would appear on the chosen Prabhu's forehead? The aura, it was said, can be seen by the people.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Dear Pak Raden,

Of all the places in Tanah Jawa, why Hutan Menataok is chosen by God as the resting place of the Wahyu Keprabon.


Dear Penangsang II,

It is a good question and it is hard to answer. I am afraid if we continue to discuss this matter (wahyu and hutan mentaok), we will break the rule of the game of warung keris. Why? Because the discussion will out of keris topic.

For eluding to be a trespasser (because breaking the law), I would like to ask the moderator (Sir David) and kerislovers to answer Penangsang's question once. So, after that hope we will be back on the track (no more of discussion on wahyu issues)

Why Alas Mentaok while so many jungles and mountains in Jawa?

According to wahyu keprabon, actually this myth is just for its believers. There are several chapters of Jawa civilization. Each chapter has a legend where wahyu keprabon hided before entering to the chosen person. Then, the chosen person becomes Prabu/King/Leader/President (now). Seemingly, there are several wahyu keprabons in Jawa, each wahyu rises in different period of Jawa civilization.

Once upon the time, long before Mataram era (post Majapahit era), Jawa's wahyu keprabon was believed hided in Alas Purwo (Jungle Purwo). So, lots of ambitious men went to this jungle to meditate for getting the wahyu. Ken Arok was one of them. At the end of the day, Ken Arok became the founder of Singosari Kingdom and had a new title, namely Sri Rajasa. He was a king and a founder of new dynasti of kings of Jawa.

Post Majapahit era, some people believed that wahyu keprabon hided in jungle mentaok. Amongst the believers were Ki Agen Mataram, Ki Ageng Mangir and Sultan Hadiwijoyo (Joko Tingkir, he was a soft beleiver). At that period, there was a distinguished sunan. He was Sunan Giri (giri means mountain). Sunan Giri was believed having ability whatever he said would come true. Someday, there was a gathering in Sunan Giri's home. The visitors of that gathering were kings from several regions in Jawa. The aim of their visit to Sunan Giri was to get his blessing to rule Jawa. Amongst those kings was Sultan Hadiwijoyo (and his staff including Ki Ageng Mataram). While everyone enjoyed the party (eating and drinking... perhaps till they dropped), Ki Ageng Mataram took care the garbits wasted crelessly by drunken kings. Sunan Giri paid attention to his special action and asked to his guests who the man was. Sultan Hadiwijoyo responded that that man was one of his staf, namely Ki Ageng Mataram. Sunan Giri told that his descendants (Ki Ageng Mangir) would be rulers of Jawa.

Sultan Hadiwijoyo announced that whoever killed Aryo Penangsang would be rewarded territory wherever he wanted. After killing Arya Penangsang (I :D ), actually Sutowijoyo's Father (Ki Ageng Mataram) chose jungle mentaok as the reward. Because remembering Sunan Giri statement, Sultan Hadiwijoyo tried to cancel his promise and lured Ki Ageng Mataram to choose other rewards. In short, Ki Ageng Mataram got jungle mentaok. He had never declared as a king because he felt what Sunan Giri said was true. Wahyu keprabon would never for him but, hopefully, for his decendants. After living in jungle mentaok, he always urged Danang Sutowijoyo (Panembahan Senopati) to meditate to realize their dream. Where? in parts of jungle mantaok, especially in mBanglampir Hill, Dlepih Khayangan fountain and, sure, South Sea's coast. Based on history, in its golden era, Mataram territory was most of Jawa island (excluded Batavia and Banten which never surrended), South Kalimantan and Jambi of Sumatera (as vatsals).

As I mentioned above, no all Jawa people believed that Wahyu Keprabon hided in jungle mentaok. Lots of Kings in Jawa did not believe that. Even, they felt that their royal blood were purer than Ki Ageng Mataram's and they created their own myth to support their legitimation. Thats why they did not surrender freely to Mataram. Lots of their surrender were by bloody war. Logically, if they shared the same believe about the myth of wahyu keprabon of jungle mentaok, soon after Ki Ageng Mataram got jungle mentaok as a reward, they would knee unanimously and voluntarily to Ki Ageng Mataram's descendant (Mataram Kingdom).


Where is the next wahyu keprabon after post Majapahit era?

In Jawa modern era, it is believed (again only to its believers) that the wahyu keprabon is hiding inside Alas Ketonggo (if I am not mistaken it is near Solo).

If you follows recent Indonesian political saga, a lot of prominent politicians get (some are still waiting in long queue for getting) royal titles of Surakarta Kingdom. Frankly speaking, politically and factually, Surakarta Kingdom now is powerless (extremely, Kingdom Surakarta is only a history, no more exist). But why do so many giant Indonesian politicians try to get royal title from there. For nothing? No, there must be a motive in every political move. Some people believe that one of their motives is by having Jawa royal title they feel becoming eligible to get wahyu keprabon which is now still in Alas Ketonggo.

Surprisingly, now, this myth is not monopolized by Jawa people. Some of Solo royal title awardee are from other islands. To some extends, it becomes Indonesia myth (wider by its belivers)

Okay... it's better stopped here and back to keris discussion. Do not as why/where jungle ketonggo is whilst, now, there is not jungle anymore in Indonesia..... hahahahaaaa.... illegal logging and deforestation ARE NOT MYTHS in INDONESIA. Lets fight agianst... alle alle alle

warms regards,

Usmen

[David]

It is a good question and it is hard to answer. I am afraid if we continue to discuss this matter (wahyu and hutan mentaok), we will break the rule of the game of warung keris. Why? Because the discussion will out of keris topic.

For eluding to be a trespasser (because breaking the law), I would like to ask the moderator (Sir David) and kerislovers to answer Penangsang's question once. So, after that hope we will be back on the track (no more of discussion on wahyu issues)
First of all i would like to thank you Usmen for elevating me to the rank of knighthood. Now i can mingle with the likes of Sir Elton John and Sir Paul McCartney. :D
I have always maintained that it is impossible to come to any proper understanding of keris in a vacuum. Discussions on subjects like these are therefore imperitive. You are not in violation of any forum rules with this discussion and i would incourage such conversation to continue so as to bring us to a deeper understanding of the Jawanese (and Indonesian) people and their culture(s).Without it an understanding of the keris will always remain elusive. :)

[ganjawulung]

I think the ball is in Pak Ganja's court now:-

Pak Ganja, can you please tell us whether it is the Surakarta school of "kerisology", or the Jogjakarta school of "kerisology" that follows most closely the traditions of olden times, be those olden times taken as Majapahit, Mataram, or some other era?

Dear Alan, Raden Usman, David, Penangsang and All,

Apologize me, for my late responding of Alan’s question. It’s been five days I was “off air” because of my total concentration for another business. Thanks a lot for your patience…

I am sorry Alan, I’d better choose “solo school” and “jogja school” instead of “kerisology”. Would you mind if I do that?

It is quite fair if we compare the cultural products of the best era of both schools. Especially in their keris world. The best of Paku Buwono era in keris making, was happened during the reign of their richest king, Susuhunan Paku Buwono X (1893-1939). Coincidentally, in Jogja, it happened in the same era, during the reign of their richest king too, of Sultan Hamengku Buwono VII (1877-1921).

It was the most peaceful era among the two “rivals”, between Jogja and Solo. And the golden era of Javanese palace royal dances, traditional music, and also keris making, happened too in the reign of these richest kings. One of the two consorts of king PB X, was GKR Hemas – the daughter of HB VII in Jogjakarta. King PB X had two consorts, and more than 34 mistresses. (At least, 34 mistresses had the royal descents…).

Someday, I hope to write more details on the comparison of the style of kerises from these two richest kings of Jogja and Solo. And better too, if I will be able to put the pictures of both era. Keris with tangguh PB X, has really different style with keris with tangguh HB VII. You may see, that kerises with tangguh HB VII was continuing the old style of the older Mataram – say it continuing some older forms from three styles of “older” Mataram: Mataram Senopaten, Sultan Agungan, or even Amangkuratan… (Mr Boedhy Adithya knows better than me on this popular style of Jogja keris). While kerises with tangguh PB X, are really "new" solonese type. The specific form of ganja, for instance, you may be able to recognize quite easily, that the style is real solonese type. Not older Mataram, nor Majapahit.

I hope, this simple explanation answers the question from Alan, for the time being…

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Dear Raden Usman,

Speaking about Sultan Hamengku Buwono VII, I'd like to hear the story about "Pendito Ratu" (Priest King?), and "lengser keprabon" (step down from the throne, before the king passed away) which was done by HB VII. After lengser keprabon, HB VII then stayed outside Kraton Jogjakarta. (Jogja then reigned by his son, HB VIII). The new home of the "Priest King" HB VII was in Ambarrukmo. (In Pendopo complex near international hotel Ambarrukmo, in front of Bale Kambang Restaurant). A piece succession in Jogja. Would you mind, Raden?

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

....The new home of the "Priest King" HB VII was in Ambarrukmo. (In Pendopo complex near international hotel Ambarrukmo, in front of Bale Kambang Restaurant). A piece succession in Jogja. Would you mind, Raden?

Ufff,
Elementary error.... it should be "a peace succession", instead of "piece"...

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Dear Alan, Raden Usman........
Someday, I hope to write more details on the comparison of the style of kerises from these two richest kings of Jogja and Solo. And better too, if I will be able to put the pictures of both era.........
Ganjawulung


dear Ganja and kerislovers,

I am really eager to watch images of keris and tombak (spearhead) that are believed as PB X period (tangguh). Even I am eager to hold and to have it someday. Till now, I dont have any kerises and spearheads of PB X period.

So, it is highly appreciated if you may upload and share the images of kerises and tombaks of PB X period. Thnak you very much in advanced.

warm salam,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, once again a very beautiful answer, and one with content with which I concur, but once again, your answer does not come anywhere near addressing the question I am attempting to ask.

This is very embarrassing for me, because one of the cornerstones of my profession is the ability to ask questions clearly. Obviously have failed to do this.

I am in two minds as to whether to just let this matter pass, or to try again to phrase my question in a way that will be understood.After due consideration I have decided to try one more time.


I used the phrase "school of kerisology" to indicate the study, practice, beliefs of all things to do with keris. I did this because I did not want to narrow my question to one specific area of keris study nor practice, but to make my question as wide, and as flexible as possible. I have no real objection to use of the word "school" only, but in its normal interpretation in English, this word in this context is taken as applying principally to stylistic aspects of a particular art form.
My question is not directed specifically at the stylistic differences between keris made in Solo style, nor keris made in Jogja style.

I have absolutely no intention of seeking an answer in any way related to stylistic differences between Solo keris and Jogja keris.

My attempt at phrasing the question broadly , with the objective of allowing you room to move in providing an answer failed. It failed, I think, because I was insufficiently clear in respect of the specifics. You have answered in terms of keris physical style, but following on from the exchange that that has generated my further questioning, keris style is really not material to the original question.

To recap:-

On 31st. August, Pak Ganja posted this:-


"The edge of old keris, is usually "serrated" (pls correct me, if I used the wrong English term), because of age, and corrosion. In Solo, the practice of "mbesut" (smoothen the serrated edge, reshape the blade) is permitted. Of course, by the specialist of it. Matang is a wellknown specialist of mbesut practice in Kraton Solo. You may call, such old but reshaped keris as "keris besutan" or "keris larasan".

So, "mbesut" or "nglaras" (verb) keris, contains intention of reshaping, beautifying the corroded keris edge -- of course, without heat treatment. But for they who don't agree with such practice, may call such reshaped keris as "keris ongotan" (negative meaning). Ongotan means "sharpened", like pencil. (True) yogyanese, doesn't practice this..."


On 1st. September Penangsang asked :-

"---Which one of these two schools - Solo & Yogja, follow the tradition of old schools of say, Mataram era? I believe that I read it somewhere that Sultan Agung's time was actually the keris golden era.---"


On 1st. September Pak Ganja replied:-

"---Both "schools" follow most of the old tradition, and only different in certain aspects (sometimes totally different). In certain sense, Solo school is more modern.---"

Penangsang has now clarified his question, and I understand his question to cover all aspects of the keris. Since the original exchange which has generated my query clearly dealt specifically with one practice of keris maintenance which is carried out in Solo, but which is (supposedly) not carried out in Jogja, I shall now refine my question to address the specifics of only keris maintenance.

Please note:- I am not talking about keris style, I am talking about keris maintenance. I am not talking about keris making, I am talking about keris maintenance. I am not questioning present day practice of keris maintenance, I am questioning the tradition of keris maintenance as it applied in a previous era, which for the sake of this question, I shall fix as Mataram.

Pak Ganja, here is my question:-

Based upon your post of 31st August in which you state that certain practices of keris maintenance are acceptable in Solo, but unacceptable in Jogja, and upon your post of 1st. September in which you state that both Solo and Jogja follow old traditions, and in the full understanding that your post of 1st September was in response to a question raised on 1st September which set Mataram as the era to be taken as the point of reference to establish "old traditions", will you please respond to these questions:-

a) in the context of the above quoted posts, and bearing in mind that the Mataram era can be taken to cover a very long period of time, will you please provide a reference year for Mataram, as you intended "Mataram" to be understood in your response of 1st September which was directed at a question that specified "Mataram" as a point of reference.

b) are you able to provide any evidence of "old traditions" in respect of the way in which keris maintenance was carried out in, prior to, or about the year you have specified in your answer to question a).
By "evidence" I mean documentary evidence, or a verbal tradition that can be substantiated by supporting evidence of any kind.

I thank you for your cooperation in my attempts to clarify this for both myself, and for our readers. I had hoped to avoid interrogative questions of this nature, but it seems that when I try to be less than direct, I am also less than clear.

[A. G. Maisey]

I do apologise Pak Ganja, I failed to respond to this question of yours.

"So, dhapur pasopati is older than the form of dhapur (jalak) budo?"

Please note that I quoted legend as the source for this.

I did not say that I believed this legend.

Of course, you may believe it if you wish, just as I believe that King Arthur pulled a sword from a lump of rock.

[ganjawulung]

I do apologise Pak Ganja, I failed to respond to this question of yours.

"So, dhapur pasopati is older than the form of dhapur (jalak) budo?"

Please note that I quoted legend as the source for this.

I did not say that I believed this legend.

Of course, you may believe it if you wish, just as I believe that King Arthur pulled a sword from a lump of rock.
Dear Alan,
Do apologize me once again, if I respond to this matter first. This sounds very interesting for me, to hear an information -- that I considered new for me -- that the more sophisticated form of dhapur pasopati was created by Mpu Ramadi in the Javanese year of 152. Then a question raised in my mind: is dhapur pasopati older than keris (jalak) budo?

This is what I quote from the discussion in this post. Mr PenangsangII asked us like this:
And another stupid question, according to tangguhan, original dapor pasopati was created during which era?
And Alan respond in his post in the discussion:
According to legend, the Mpu who first made a keris dapur pasopati was Mpu Ramadi in the Javanese year 152.
PenangsangII asked more in the later post:
...though I have no idea how to guess what year exactly is Jawanese year 152...
Alan responded:
152 Saka would be around 230 AD in the Gregorian calender.
Then I asked Alan:
So, dhapur pasopati is older than the form of (jalak) budo?
Alan responded later in one of his post:
Please note that I quoted legend as the source for this.
I did not say that I believed this legend.
Of course, you may believe if you wish, just as I believe that King Arthur pulled a sword from a lump of rock.

This info is something new for me, regarding that the form of pasopati which is more complicated than the form of simple dhapur of jalak budo. These pictures below are only showing the three kerises with dhapur pasopati, and one keris with dhapur jalak budo which is believed by most keris lovers in Java, as "the older form of keris" in the past...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, I suspect we may have a slight language difficulty here.

The fact that legend attributes dapur Pasopati to an origin in the year 152 Saka does not mean that dapur Pasopati is older than the buda form of keris.

It means only that according to legendary belief dapur Pasopati dates from Saka 152.

This is legend Pak Ganja. Legend. Legends can and sometimes do claim absolutely unbelieveable things. It is best not to confuse legend with fact.

Source of the information is the Damartaji reprint of "Buku Gambar Dhapuripun Dhuwung Saha Waos"

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Just one very minor thing needs to be made clear from Raden's post:- when a keris blade is subjected to normal maintenance procedures involving cleaning up an edge, or tidying up a ganja or kembang kacang, this is done cold, and it is only done after asking permission of the maker of the blade and any presence which may be inside the blade. We do not just pick the blade up, throw it into a fire, and take to it with hammer, tongs and electric grinder.Correctly carried out it is an almost religious ceremony.



dear,

Alan, I also heared that before cleaning and edging (and mbesut-ing/reshaping) there are sop (standard of procedure) or laku (english ?) including "nayuh". The result of this laku will used as a based whether the working should continue or not.

According to the legend of pasopati of mpu Ramadi, I would like to reveal some information based on Wayang. The name of Kiai Pasopati, Kiai Limpung, Kiai Nenggolo have been known in Wayang. If wayang were a legend (beleved as history not story). it should be long long before Christ even much long before Abraham the great grandpa of Christ.

Seemingly, the legend has been developing.
As Alan does beleived of the legend of King Arthur, I do believe of the legend of Mpu Ramadi just because I lived in the foot mountain Merapi mountain. It you visit Mountain Merapi, you will get more story about him. In some places, in hills and creeks, people believed some prominent spirits owned by Mpu ramadi living there till now, such as Ki Surenglogo et cetera et cetera et cetera

BUT, if someone states that what kind of keris pasopati created by Mpu Ramadi is similiar with Dhapur Pasopati what we know today, my stand is the same as Gonjowulung: DOUBTING with BIG QUESTION MARK.

In my opinion, Pasopati of Mpu Ramadi does not refer to the shape. However, it refers to the power of Mpu Ramadi's Pasaopati. The power of Mpu Ramadi's Pasopati was drawn as powerful as the (h)Arjuna's [?] Pasopati in Wayang. About the shape of that keris, none knows, because after spending much attention on the legend of its power, people neglected to specify the shape of the pusaka :)

If we read the ancient Jawa history, Mpu Ramadi was founder one of two prominent dynasties in Jawa. He lived in foot mountain of Merapi long before Pralaya (Merapi eruption dated so and so). At that time, area surrouding Merapi mountain in center of civilization in Jawa. Now, we can see on of its artifac: Borobudur & Prambanan temple. Actually, Borobudur temple was just medium size temple. There was bigger one but defastating by Pralaya. If I am not mistaken. Perhaps, what I said has big inaccuration. It is better someone here in this forum checks in library and corects what mistakes I did about Mpu Ramadi based on (accepted) History books. So, everyone will get truer information. Then we will be enlighted together. Sil vous plait?

merci beaucoup,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Usmen, if you believe the legends surrounding Empu Ramadi, as I believe the legends surrounding Arthur, then your belief is as mine:- rather fragile.

I am of the opinion that serious researchers into legend are in more or less general agreement that many, if not most legends have a basis in fact, but that basis may be very, very different from the legend as it stands at this point in time.

As I have already stated:- we should not confuse legend with fact.

All of these beliefs and legends are interesting, and provide useful background which will allow people to come to an understanding of the way in which many people in Jawa regard and feel about the keris. The legends are of anthropological value, but they are not of historic value, and bearing in mind that history itself is very often open to question, they can most certainly never be accepted as factual.

Let us be aware of the legends, but let us not confuse the legends with facts, nor with hypotheses which can be supported with logic or with evidence.

[ganjawulung]

Pak Ganja, I suspect we may have a slight language difficulty here.

The fact that legend attributes dapur Pasopati to an origin in the year 152 Saka does not mean that dapur Pasopati is older than the buda form of keris.

It means only that according to legendary belief dapur Pasopati dates from Saka 152.

This is legend Pak Ganja. Legend. Legends can and sometimes do claim absolutely unbelieveable things. It is best not to confuse legend with fact.

Source of the information is the Damartaji reprint of "Buku Gambar Dhapuripun Dhuwung Saha Waos"
Thanks a lot Alan, for your info. Not an important thing, but interesting for me. If you mention the title "Buku Gambar Dhapuripun Duwung Saha Waos" (Book on Dhapur Pictures of Kerises and Spear), then it must be the book that was written by the popular writer in Javanese literature, Raden Ngabehi Ronggowarsito.

Yes, the original copy of the book is now in the hand of Mr Haryono Guritno - the writer of Keris Jawa, Antara Mistik dan Nalar. But according to Damartaji (Keris Association of Jakarta) they never printed or even reprinted that Ronggowarsito book. Damartaji only printed, and reprinted the book "Dhapur" which keris illustration, was written by Kanjeng Gusti Pangeran Hario (KGPH) Hadiwijoyo -- an intelectual, son of the late King Paku Buwono X. He once studied in Leiden, Holland and had a vast knowledge on keris at that time. But this book on "Dhapur" did not mention on the creator of certain dapurs, such as pasopati.

For me it is interesting to know, that dhapur keris Pasopati actualy was created in the early era of the 3rd century... While, according to my "limiting belief" from oral tradition, keris (jalak) budo, and of course some other kinds of betok budo -- which has more simple details (ricikan) on keris, is one of the oldest form of Javanese keris. Some evidence (old kerises which bear dhapur betok or jalak budo), supposed to come from Singasari era (13th century), or earlier.

Pasopati -- straight keris with such sophisticated details of two sogokan, sekar kacang pogok (not a full kembang kacang), and double greneng or greneng sungsun -- is one of favorit dhapur among keris collectors.

Ganjawulung

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Pak Usmen, if you believe the legends surrounding Empu Ramadi, as I believe the legends surrounding Arthur, then your belief is as mine:- rather fragile.

I am of the opinion that serious researchers into legend are in more or less general agreement that many, if not most legends have a basis in fact, but that basis may be very, very different from the legend as it stands at this point in time.

As I have already stated:- we should not confuse legend with fact.

All of these beliefs and legends are interesting, and provide useful background which will allow people to come to an understanding of the way in which many people in Jawa regard and feel about the keris. The legends are of anthropological value, but they are not of historic value, and bearing in mind that history itself is very often open to question, they can most certainly never be accepted as factual.

Let us be aware of the legends, but let us not confuse the legends with facts, nor with hypotheses which can be supported with logic or with evidence.

dear,

Absoltely, I agree with you.

Anyway, sometimes, even if we are a member of logic society, we should enjoy legends as they are. One of its benefit, it could make us feeling stonger.

Yeah, frankly speaking, some stories were told in holly books, they seem legends rather than facts. But as we tried to be a devoted lamb, we totally believe in. Moreover, factually, it makes us stronger to face with the fragile realm of the world. Human needs fantacy.

warm regards,

Usmen

[Raden Usman Djogja]

original was "dear"

revised is " dear Alan [and kerislovers]"

[A. G. Maisey]

No Pak Ganja, the book to which I refer is credited to KGPH Hadiwijaya.

The title of the original work is as I have given it, and noted thus in the introduction, but when Damartaji copied it and released it in 1998, they titled it as:- "DHAPUR, buku gambar bentuk keris dan tombak".

The original was dated 24 April 1920, and the date of the introduction to the Damartaji edition is 12 Februari 1998.

If we go to page 17 of this book, we will find dhapur pasopati (pasupati), illustration number 32.

The attribution for dhapur pasopati as shown on page 17 is:-

mitos/dongeng:-
Pemrakarsa---Sri Paduka Maharaja Budda;Empu---Ramadi; Tahun Jawa---152.

Regretably we cannot say that "---dhapur pasopati was actually created in the early era of the 3rd. century---"

We can only say that legend tells us that dhapur pasopati was created in the 3rd century.

There is a vast difference between the attribution given by legend, and when dhapur pasopati may have actually been created.

Pak Ganja, is there a possibility that you have been provided with slightly inaccurate information?

I'm quite certain of my information, as I have the book in question in front of me as I write.

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Usman, I cannot disagree with what you have written.

All of life is simply an illusion, and a few fairy stories can make that illusion more comfortable to live in.

But sometimes some of us need to step outside the illusion and try to come to an understanding of what really happened, and when, and why. Those of us who choose to step outside the bubble---or are pushed--- pay dearly for this lack of wisdom.

[ganjawulung]

mitos/dongeng:-
Pemrakarsa---Sri Paduka Maharaja Budda;Empu---Ramadi; Tahun Jawa---152.

Regretably we cannot say that "---dhapur pasopati was actually created in the early era of the 3rd. century---"

We can only say that legend tells us that dhapur pasopati was created in the 3rd century.

There is a vast difference between the attribution given by legend, and when dhapur pasopati may have actually been created.

Pak Ganja, is there a possibility that you have been provided with slightly inaccurate information?

I'm quite certain of my information, as I have the book in question in front of me as I write.

You are right, Alan,

The book of Kanjeng Gusti Pangeran Haryo (KGPH) Hadiwijoyo you mentioned in previous posts, did say about Empu Ramadi and the dhapur pasopati. While the book I referred, was the "Dhapur" book which was published by Damartaji (written by Waluyo Wijayatno -- the secretary of Damartaji) but used the source of Mr Hadiwijoyo book. This book contains pictures only (the similar ilustration as Mr Hadiwijoyo book) but with captions only.

Yesterday, I met Mr Haryono Haryoguritno at his home in Rawamangun Jakarta for a certain project on keris. In our side conversation, we talked also on this matter. How could happen, such complicated dhapur as pasopati was created by Empu Ramadi in the Jawa year or 152? Raden Ngabehi Ronggowarsito -- in a different era -- even mentioned in his Book on Dhapur Keris and Tombak (spear) that Empu Ramadi made the dhapurs of pasopati, lar ngatap (straight keris with two sogokan until almost the tip of keris blade) and cundrik in the Jawanese year of 152...

Yes, it is only legend. Logically, according to Mr Haryono Haryoguritno, the dhapur of older keris might be as simple as dhapur betok, or brojol which has not too complicated details. But, figure like Raden Ngabehi Ronggowarsito in his days, had vast authority to say on many thing -- not only literature matters, but also on kerises, on other javanese traditions. He might be regarded as Mpu (Master) in almost everything including keris, although actually Ronggowarsito was not an expert in keris, for instance. So no wonder, if it could happened, he made mistake too...

So many things in keris knowledge, that need to be argued if we talk about "kerisology". On tangguh for instance. Why we regarded this keris as a keris made in Majapahit period, or Mataram period. Or even, made by Ki Nom, or Empu Singawijaya for instance. So many things in this keris world still need more precise information...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Pak Ganja, but its not really a matter of being right, or wrong.

This was just a matter of slight confusion:- you were talking about one Damartaji publication, I was talking about another, and we both did not know of the other publication.

No big deal, we're back on track now.

Yes, I agree that there are great holes in our supposed knowledge of keris. Perhaps the principal reason for this is the propensity of keris fanciers to take myth, legend, and popular belief as fact. Virtually all our so-called "knowledge" comes from later than the beginning of the 19th. century, yet early in the 19th. century Raffles observed the keris in Jawa at that time fulfilled a similar function to the small sword in Europe fifty years previously. That is, almost exclusively as an item of dress.The day of the origin of the keris was already 500 years or more back in history when people began to record the "knowledge". Go back 5 months in time and try to get a truly accurate fix on something, that can be supported with evidence.The only way to understand the keris in Jawa is to understand Jawa at the time during which we wish to understand the keris. For instance, to understand the position of the keris in Jawa in the year 2007, we need to understand Javanese culture and society in the year 2007. Take the parrallel:- to understand the keris in Jawa in , say, 1407, we need to understand Jawa in the year 1407.Not an easy thing.

The simple fact of the matter is that the keris is a Javanese icon, and as such is subject to a system of belief that accepts certain legend and myth as fact. Nothing wrong with that, it gives a lot of people comfort.In fact, even though logically I know that certain things to do with the keris are the product of belief, emotionally I am quite prepared to accept those things as true. But logically I am obliged to doubt them. It all depends what thought mode I am in.

You mention tangguh, and we know that an understanding of tangguh is essential for us to be able to gain a (Javanese) understanding of the keris, however, nobody ever speaks of how, when, and why this system of classification that we know as "tangguh" arose.Go back to the roots of tangguh, and many people might find a distasteful truth that they cannot accept.

[Rick]

You mention tangguh, and we know that an understanding of tangguh is essential for us to be able to gain a (Javanese) understanding of the keris, however, nobody ever speaks of how, when, and why this system of classification that we know as "tangguh" arose.Go back to the roots of tangguh, and many people might find a distasteful truth that they cannot accept.

My curiousity has been piqued .
I am all eyes and ears Gentlemen . :)

This has been a very enlightening discussion for me and I thank you all for participating; if we ever wind up this thread I believe it will be going to the 'Classics' file .

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Dear Raden Usman,

Speaking about Sultan Hamengku Buwono VII, I'd like to hear the story about "Pendito Ratu" (Priest King?), and "lengser keprabon" (step down from the throne, before the king passed away) which was done by HB VII. After lengser keprabon, HB VII then stayed outside Kraton Jogjakarta. (Jogja then reigned by his son, HB VIII). The new home of the "Priest King" HB VII was in Ambarrukmo. (In Pendopo complex near international hotel Ambarrukmo, in front of Bale Kambang Restaurant). A piece succession in Jogja. Would you mind, Raden?

Ganjawulung

Dear Gonjo,

I am so sorry not responding your question soon because I must consider to answer or not for a while. My "data" is quite sensitive to be shared with, especially someone like you who have lots of friends in Djokja. I am sure that some of them are HB VII's offsprings. Who knows that even you are among them :shrug: At least, who knows that in your blood flows Djokja royal blood.

Finally, I decide to share with you and kerislovers (as cultural background for understanding keris as David said)

According to HB VII.

Mainstream story is just the same as you have already mentioned.

However, other version goes to the opposite direction. HB VII was abdicated by Ndoro Tuan Eyang Wilhelmina (Dutch Colonial Administration). Then he moved (mesanggrah) to Pesanggrahan Ambarukmo.

The intrique during succession to HB VIII was not bloody but very cruel. The crown prince was dead suddently and mysteriously. Some believed he was possioned. The second candidate prince was afraid to face the strange situation. He was quite smart to survive but "unbravery" to race for winning a throne. He pretended becoming crazy/mad. As a result, the board considered that he was not eligible as King of Djokja. Then, other prince was chose as HB VIII.

The smart but "unbravery" prince was survive. His talent pretending to be someone else (a crazy man) was inherited by some of his offsprings. Now, there is a prominent Indonesian comedian who can imitate beautifully and perfectly other personalities (gestures and even sounds). Some people believe that he is one of great grandsons (?) of the smart prince mentioned above. I am sure that you know him and, perhaps, you have an opportunity to crosscheck the story I shared to him :) .

According to Pendito Ratu

Most people refers "Pendito Ratu" based on Kediri Kingdom, King Airlangga or Mahabharata Book (Jawa version): either Puntodewo in post-Great War era or Begawan Abiyoso in pre-Great War era. However, I dont have enough knowledge to tell about wayang (shadow puppet). Perhaps, we can ask KIAI CARITO to elaborate broadly about "lengser keprabon madheg pandhito" (stepping down from the throne becoming a priest) :)

warm salam,

Usmen

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Dear Raden Usman.......

A piece succession in Jogja.

Ganjawulung

Dear Gonjo,

according to Peace succession

Nowadays, there is quite messy succession in Kasunanan Surakarta. There are two princes claiming as the legitimate PB XIII: Hangabehi and Tejowulan.

Some media-celebritists gave comment through newspapers, radios and tv channels urging these PB XIII to follow their ancestors way. Amongst media-celebritists, to follow their ancestors way means to make succession peacefully. However, the conflict during succession tends to erupt (perhaps, till now). Perhaps, to follow their ancestors way is interpreted by two competed princes as it was.

During Mataram Islam era, most succession was unpeace. The first king of Mataram (Panembahan Senopati) killed his eldest son (Raden Ronggo) for the purpose to create strong foundation of the new Jawa Dynasti. Raden Ronggo's divine power was unimaginable. Someone like him in the early of dynasti founding was needed in the battlefields. Meanwhile, as the eldest son of King, he has a legitimation if he demanded the throne.

For a King, giant divine power is not first requirement. Just like football, strikers like Henry and Ronaldo were needed in a team as goal makers in the game. But to be a king of Mataram, he had to have "corporate" thought. In Premiere League, someone like Sir Alex Ferguson or Arsene Wenger of Arsenal are "corporate" person/leader. Raden Ronggo did not have "corporate" thought. His Father decided a harsh way to eliminate him (by killing). According the legend, Panembahan Senopati asked the Queen of South Sea (genie) to take care of Raden Ronggo. Perhaps, it could be intepreted that Raden Ronggo's corpse threw away into the deep of South Sea (Hindia Ocean).

Once it begins, it will never stop. The successor of Panembahan Senopati was killed during deer hunting season and the new king was handicap since he was born. He was abdicated soon after his corronation replaced by Sultan Agung (Sultan the Great). The successor of Sultan Agung was a notorious man since he was young. The age of unpeaceful succession in Mataram is as old as Mataram Kingdom.

Previuos thread I shared about HB VII-VIII. Other story, there is an autobiography book of Partini. She was a daughter of Mangkunegoro VI. In her book, she told that her father (Romo Bagus, bagus means charming, beause his father was handsome) informing her that he juat became new Mangkunegoro. Mangkunegoro V was abdicated then "exciled" to Surabaja. In general, all of descendants of Mataram:Surakarta, Djokja, Mengkunegaran and Pakualaman "always" face the same situation during succession.

So... the legacy of unpeaceful succession, we can still see today. Even, it is beyond the wall of Jawa Palaces. Seemingly, the modern Indonesia follows Mataram ways :D If Indonesia human right activist was trully killed by arsenicum. Well... you all know arsenicum. It is called "warangan" to etching Keris and spear-head. Poisioning with arsenicum (warangan) was ancient way in Jawa. So... perhaps (assumed that Munir was killed), the killer is a kerislover...... :D just kidding mates

warm salam,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Incidentally, I perhaps should have mentioned this previously, but it has only now occurred to me that it could be something that is not common knowledge.

Pasopati is the usual Jawa spelling of Pasupati. Pasupati is another name for Rudra, the "lord of creatures", creatures in the more specific sense of livestock (pasu= livestock, pati=lord) . Of course, Rudra appears in the Vedas, and his attributes are what later developed into Siwa, who did not appear in the Vedas, so Rudra can be a name for Siwa, just as Pasupati is one of the names of Siwa. Thus, if we term a keris form "Pasupati", or "Pasopati", we are using a name of Siwa.

Gives one something to dwell upon, does it not?

[ganjawulung]

The intrique during succession to HB VIII was not bloody but very cruel. The crown prince was dead suddently and mysteriously. Some believed he was possioned. The second candidate prince was afraid to face the strange situation. He was quite smart to survive but "unbravery" to race for winning a throne. He pretended becoming crazy/mad. As a result, the board considered that he was not eligible as King of Djokja. Then, other prince was chose as HB VIII.

The smart but "unbravery" prince was survive. His talent pretending to be someone else (a crazy man) was inherited by some of his offsprings. Now, there is a prominent Indonesian comedian who can imitate beautifully and perfectly other personalities (gestures and even sounds). Some people believe that he is one of great grandsons (?) of the smart prince mentioned above. I am sure that you know him and, perhaps, you have an opportunity to crosscheck the story I shared to him :)
Dear Raden,

This is more interesting for me. What I knew is only "sweet" story version. Just like "Nugroho Notosusanto" (Indonesian contemporary historian) told us about the "Orde Baru" (Indonesian New Era, Suharto era) story. Sweet Suharto...

Just like knowing the intriguing story behind The Beatles. Knowing the conflict between John Lennon vs Paul McCartney, after John married to Japanese Yoko Ono, was not less important than knowing the greatness of these Liverpool brats...

Ganjawulung

[PenangsangII]

Of course some information from our history were surpressed by the ruler of that time...info that would be detrimental to his throne especially. Even today, Dubya would surpress the info on how many civilian casualties in Iraq. I think that news surpression happens everywhere......

Pak Raden, I dont quite understand, why Raden Ronggo had to be sacrificed to the Ratu Laut Selatan. If he was so powerful, definitely he was an asset to the kingdom, wasnt he?

[Kiai Carita]

...The intrique during succession to HB VIII was not bloody but very cruel. The crown prince was dead suddently and mysteriously. Some believed he was possioned. The second candidate prince was afraid to face the strange situation. He was quite smart to survive but "unbravery" to race for winning a throne. He pretended becoming crazy/mad. As a result, the board considered that he was not eligible as King of Djokja. Then, other prince was chose as HB VIII.

The smart but "unbravery" prince was survive. His talent pretending to be someone else (a crazy man) was inherited by some of his offsprings. Now, there is a prominent Indonesian comedian who can imitate beautifully and perfectly other personalities (gestures and even sounds). Some people believe that he is one of great grandsons (?) of the smart prince mentioned above. I am sure that you know him and, perhaps, you have an opportunity to crosscheck the story I shared to him :) ....warm salam,

Usmen


Salam Raden Usman,

I think that you are refering to Gusti Djuminah, who would have been HBVIII but instead was put under house arrest (kurantil) untill he died short after the Japanese occupation.

Yes, Gusti Djuminah's descendants are still alive and active in the arts and culture scene in Yogya and Indonesia. And the story of their great grandfather is rather different from yours, there is no cowardise in the memory of the family.

I used to be a student of Bagong Kussudiardjo and his sons are friends of mine.

Salam hangat,
Bram

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Pak Raden, I dont quite understand, why Raden Ronggo had to be sacrificed to the Ratu Laut Selatan. If he was so powerful, definitely he was an asset to the kingdom, wasnt he?

dear Penangsang II,

Raden Ronggo was not sacrified to the Queen of South Sea. In Jawa, it is different. The act to offer (ing)[?] sacrifation to the Queen of South Sea will be considered as "munjung" (I dont know the translation "munjung" in english). Someone who do "munjung" are usually because they want to be rich by shortcut ways [by collaborating with "evil" spirit such as Butoijo (Blue giant), Inthok (no translation), Babi Ngepet (pig which its tail always spin), Kethekputih (White Monkey), Blorong (half human body half snake tail, it is believd by "munjung" to advisor of the Queen of South Sea, called Nyai Roro Kidul).

According to Raden Ronggo. In developing political power point of view, sometimes, someone who has a remakable ability will be considered as a disturbance factor to the established system. It is beyond the capability of the political environment to absorb and to adapt the "remarkable" person's manuvers. It happens till now. For instance, perhaps Datuk Anwar Ibrahim of Malaysia has great vision further and faster than other political actors. For personal achievement, it is remarkable. But in term of political or power movement (corporate point of view), his individual action is considered as a disturbance factor for the whole system. Unhuman but logic, a disturbance factor must be eliminated (erased). If not, there is a possibility that whole system will be collapsed/crimpled[?]. Senopati as A king in New Born Kingdom (or Mahathir as the PM of a 43/45 years old country) knew well how to save greater goals (then by sacrificing individual/smaller satisfaction).

One of the actions of Raden Ronggo. During the banquet for welcoming of King of Banten courtesy visit to Panembahan Senopati, King of Banten asked one of his warrior to perform a spectacle "debus". This warrior invulnerable to swords, keris, tombak and any sharp weapons. To make more impresive, the warrior asked audience to try to hit him by any weapons which they wanted. As a young warrior, Ronggo could not elude from this challence. Raden Ronggo went closer to the warrior and pounded/striked the warrior smoothly with his hand without using sharp weapons. As a result, the warrior's breast broke severely and he died instantly.

It was upsetting his father. Why? Because Banten Kingdom location was in farmost western of Jawa. At that time, Panembahan Senopati wanted to make peace with every Kingdom which were located in western Mataram border. Panembahan Senopati had a plan to launch champaigns to invade kingdoms in eastern Jawa. Panembahan Senopati was very brillyiant. Whilst he declared war to eastern kingdoms, he made peace accords with western ones. Something likes balance of power theory in contemporary politics. The action of his eldest son during the banquet disturbed his hidden agenda: to build an imperium.

Raden Ronggo was sent to the Queen of South Sea. Perhaps, it is euphemism of reality. The intepretation could be: "someone sent (threw away) to the sea (the Queen's palace was in the deep of the sea) means that he senteced dead (either before the law or unlawful)".

warm regards,
Usmen

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Salam Raden Usman,

And the story of their great grandfather is rather different from yours, there is no cowardise in the memory of the family.

Salam hangat,
Bram

Kiai Carito,

I am sorry if my story is different from. As I explained before, that is why I need a time to consider for responding or not Gonjo's question. My story could be controvertial one. I am just storyteller. Em... unbravery doesnt mean cowardise, does it?

Please, dont tell my story to your friends. I like to live in peace and harmony :)

warm salam,
Usmen

[Kiai Carita]

Kiai Carito,

I am sorry if my story is different from. As I explained before, that is why I need a time to consider for responding or not Gonjo's question. My story could be controvertial one. I am just storyteller. Em... unbravery doesnt mean cowardise, does it?

Please, dont tell my story to your friends. I like to live in peace and harmony :)

warm salam,
Usmen

Raden Usmen,

As far as I know there is no unbravery in scrabble...Maybe Alan can help us here being a true-blue native speaker. But oral history about a crown-prince who lost his throne to another prince is likely to have different nuances depending on which side of the family tells it.

Salam hangat kembali,
Bram

[A. G. Maisey]

Dunno about scrabble---probably depends on the stakes of the game.

But it does take incredible bravery to make some types of remark in public. Particularly if one does not personally know the family and political affiliations of all who might hear, or read those remarks.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Raden Usmen,
As far as I know there is no unbravery in scrabble...
Salam hangat kembali,
Bram

Kiai Carito and Kerislovers,

hahahaha... I give up permaturely if criticized about my english language usage. Since I am quite lazy to check what I am writing out dictionary. The logic of Indonesian and Jawa langauges influence my way to express in English, such us using "prefix of negative meaning".

If a languase is an ocean. There are Jawa ocean, Indonesian Ocean, English Ocean, Allemand Ocean, Francais Ocean et cetera et cetera. Till now, perhaps, I can swim but I cannot dive yet. Swimming by simplestyle. However, someday, I hope I can do both swimming and diving. So please help me by correcting every posting I make in term of correct english usage. I will appreciate it.

Thank you for correcting gramatically my posting. Hope you will do it again and again. Then I can learn both keris knowledge and english language through this beloved forum.

warm salam,
Usmen

[Raden Usman Djogja]

to all forumities,

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?

from a tombaklover,
Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm here Raden .

Guess everybody else is busy doing something important, but today I'm glued to the computater.

Maybe everybody is outside playing. Waste of time spending good days in front of a computer. I should raise my fees.

What's this "tombak lover" business?

Rather partial to tombakipuns myself, but I don't think I'd bill myself as a tombak lover. Too many clever people could make too many unfortunate remarks.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

hi Alan,

to clarify tombak/tombakipun that when I was in Jogja, I prefferred to buy spearheads rather than kerises. first, it was interested me since I knew a synonim of tombak was waos (tooth) while a synonim of keris was curigo (curious). second, it was cheaper than keris.

seemingly, I took a risk to tell about Mataram style of succession. So far, I dont have any motive but to say what I hear for the purpose of historical background in discussing "between Djokja and Solo" (and Mataram).

okay... to all kerislovers, it is time for us to upload tangguh Surakarta and Jogjakarta. please....

Usmen




I'm here Raden .

Guess everybody else is busy doing something important, but today I'm glued to the computater.

Maybe everybody is outside playing. Waste of time spending good days in front of a computer. I should raise my fees.

What's this "tombak lover" business?

Rather partial to tombakipuns myself, but I don't think I'd bill myself as a tombak lover. Too many clever people could make too many unfortunate remarks.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

dear friends,

what kind of pamor do you think?
is it jogja or solo?

regards,
Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

G'day Pak Usman

Personally, I have no preference between keris and tombak. The work involved in making a tombak is considerably less than in making a keris, but both can equally reflect the skill of the maker. Of all the Javanese wesi aji I have , possibly the finest piece is a tombak by Jayasukadgo; I was able to afford this, but I would have difficulty in affording a keris by the same maker.

In my experience, very few collectors in the western world appreciate the tombak . Which is a bit of a pity.

Yes, I understood that you were only telling a story when you wrote of the succession in Mataram, and honestly, it was quite interesting, but had I been in possession of this knowledge, I would probably not have chosen to make it available on the net.Such an act requires great bravery, which I do not possess.

That is a nice tombak you have shown a pic of. Would it be possible to do a photo that shows the metuk at a 90 degree angle, and another photo full length, so we can see the pawakan?

Alan.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

dear Alan,

May I open a new thread to focus the discussion on tombak. It may be less interesting to non-Indonesian. Even, amongst Indonesians, tombak is less attractive than keris.

However, it could be as a breakthrough for a "budget collector with budget constraint" like me. Keris is unaffordable since every collector wants to offer the highest bidding to occupy the best one. Keris market price was boomed by overseas collectors and by myths.

warm salam,
Usmen
ps. I assume if you dont respond in 3 minutes, it means you agree that I open a new thread for discussing tombak. :eek: :)

[Rick]

dear Alan,

May I open a new thread to focus the discussion on tombak. It may be less interesting to non-Indonesian. Even, amongst Indonesians, tombak is less attractive than keris.

However, it could be as a breakthrough for a "budget collector with budget constraint" like me. Keris is unaffordable since every collector wants to offer the highest bidding to occupy the best one. Keris market price was boomed by overseas collectors and by myths.

warm salam,
Usmen
ps. I assume if you dont respond in 3 minutes, it means you agree that I open a new thread for discussing tombak. :eek: :)


Since Alan is probably sleeping as you post this Usman; would a Moderator's permission be sufficient ? :D

Rick

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Thank you very much, Rick

[cahaya]

dear friends,

what kind of pamor do you think?
is it jogja or solo?

regards,
Usmen

Hallo Mr. Usmen

can you sent pic close up/fokus at the pamor?
and like Bapak Allan to can we see "pawakan"/full pic tombak?

That is garap PB Mataram Surokarto?? (in my opinion for now)

thanks for sharing your pusoko

[Raden Usman Djogja]

dear Cahaya,

I have opened new thread T.O.M.B.A.K
Would you please to see there for additional images.

warm salam,
Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Usmen, I tend to disagree with you that collectors outside of Indonesia are the ones who have driven keris prices up.

I have a very close friend in Solo who is possibly one of, if not the biggest wholesaler of quality wesi aji. The prices that he gets at a level where he is selling to other salesmen, are far in advance of anything that I could imagine collectors in the western world being willing to pay.

Truly top quality old keris achieve the best prices in Indonesia, not in New York, Paris, and London.

The generally held belief amongst the people I know is that the primary force in driving up prices on old top quality wesi aji was the rampant corruption in Indonesia that accelerated from the mid-1970's. I do not want to discuss this in public.

Incidentally, as Rick has pointed out, I hold no authority in this discussion group. For permission to commence a thread on a subject other than keris, the correct people to approach are Rick and David.

[David]

It has always been the intention that this forum would be open to the discussion of tombak as well as keris. Therefore no permission is necessary for anyone to open a thread about tombak. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your clarification, David.

I did not know that---or if I once did know it, I'd forgotten.

Where is the dividing line?

Do pedang fall outside the basket?

Wedung?

[David]

hmmm, good question. I had thought Rick laid it out in the opening posts, but going back i see he did not. I know we spoke privately about tombaks being topical to this forum, but i will defer to Rick on where, exactly, the line should be drawn on other weapons. :shrug:

[Rick]

hmmm, good question. I had thought Rick laid it out in the opening posts, but going back i see he did not. I know we spoke privately about tombaks being topical to this forum, but i will defer to Rick on where, exactly, the line should be drawn on other weapons. :shrug:

Tombaks are on topic here.
I thought that had been laid out too. :confused:
Oh well, I'm certainly no pinnacle of perfection my friends . :D

The inclusion of other items would tend to distract from our purpose here; plus we'd become just another ethnographic forum . ;) :rolleyes: :D :D

[David]

The inclusion of other items would tend to distract from our purpose here; plus we'd become just another ethnographic forum . ;) :rolleyes: :D :D
Well...we certainly don't want that to happen! :eek: :rolleyes: :D

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you gentlemen. I think I have a clear understanding now---I might not have in 6 months time, but at the moment I'm OK.

I had in my mind that we were more or less exclusively keris, that's really the whole reason for our being, but the problem is that lines get a bit blurred sometimes.

Keris and tombak are certainly spiritual brothers, but then keris and some pedang are physical brothers---maybe even spiritual as well.For instance I have pedang with kembang kacang and sogokan, and with luk. Then there are those Bali/Lombok things---what are they called?---ligan. Is this a pedang that is keris-like, or a keris that is pedang-like? What about Lombok cundrik? Blumbangan and sogokan.

Sorry fellers, it gets hard for me. But keris + tombak sounds good for the moment.