Bosnian Bichaq

[Battara]

Here is a nice puppy I got a little while back. It is a bichaq from Sarajevo with green dyed bone and inserted brass pieces. This type of coloration and inserts are usually found on the stocks of Ottoman rifles. The blade is laminated with a maker's mark in the form of a shamshir. I made the brass scabbard based on those that went with such pieces. This is my first metal wrapped scabbard I ever made. I believe this piece is mid-19th century. I have seen very few of these in green bone. Most are white bone with inserts.

Enjoy - Jose ;)

[Ferguson]

Outstanding! Beautiful knife, and great work on the scabbard.

Steve

[Montino Bourbon]

I heard that there was a study by the Swedish army on military knives, and they came up with the fact that the best all-around military knife ended up looking like... a chef's knife!

This knife is of that sort; totally useable and functional for almost any work, and if necessary even sliding through ribs.

A great knife.

[katana]

Very nice functional knife....I like it. :)

Although the handle decoration suggests its .....Radioactive :D
Double the lethalness :rolleyes:

Nice job on the scabbard, is it brass plate over wood? How did you emboss/engrave the brass?

[Battara]

Thank you folks! :D

The scabbard is brass sheet over wood. I chased and stamped the brass with tools in a similar manner as they did and in the same style. I also soldered the brass sheet to itself on the other side (which the original would also have been) with a final soft soldering of the tip.

I also cleaned up the hilt - it had some kind of white hard adhesive on parts of it.

[Battara]

Here are some other pictures including the maker's mark in the form of a shamsir. I see this on other Sarajevo blades of this period. Anyone know who this maker was?

[TVV]

I do not think there was only one maker. To me it appears that this symbol was copied in a manner similar to the eyelashes marking, and was more of a stamp of quality. On these knives certain inscriptions seem to have been copied as well. For example I have a bichaq with an inscription "Sarajevo 1894", which is almost identical to one in a small book issued by Hermann-Historica called "Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen KulturRaum". Note the 4th dagger from the left.
Regards,
Teodor

[Rick]

Here is my example of Bichaq and a close-up of the maker's mark. :)

[Lew]

Here are 3 from my collection. Two have the scimitar mark the little one is dated 1893.


Lew

[Battara]

Thank you folks. Very helpful. And thanks for the sharing for comparison. I just love green bone and ivory! :D

[Rick]

It seems that my example is the only one with a different mark. :confused:

All the examples shown , as far as I can tell, have a hardened edge; they are sturdy workmanlike knives.

[TVV]

I hope nobody would mind me renewing this thread wih new examples - my goal is to keep as much of the information in one thread for later reference purposes.
Here is a somewhat more unusual variation of this type of knives. Not as unusual as Rick's, but still different. It is similar to #11 from Hermann-Historica's catalogue, which is described there as a Bosnian dagger with lacquer filled drilled holes decoration and a more pronounced head (pommel?), with a simple scabbard (not pictured). Mine is without scabbard, but it would have probably been similar to the usual construction of two wooden halves encased in thin brass sheet.
Below I have it next to my other three bichaqs, and I have also tried to take comparison photos of the hilts. Finally, there are photos of all the markings - one is unmarked, two have the so-called "kilidj/shamshir" marking and the new one has a marking which I cannot name, since I am not really sure what it aims to represent.
I wonder, has there been a study of these interesting knives, which might give us some insight as to the meaning of the different marks and the decoration on the hilts. I agree with Jim that the circles and dots are most likely solar symbols, but would always love to learn more.
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Very nice work on the scabbard Jose ! and this is a remarkable example, especially as you note the green dyed horn grip is most unusual. It seems I had heard in discussion once the suggestion that the green, a very sacred color in Islam, was intended to signify the Hajii, or Pilgrimage to Mecca. I wonder if this might be the case, and would be interested to hear more on this suggestion. It seems that obviously the green coloring has been seen on a number of horn gripped Islamic weapons of various forms.

Another feature that seems prevalent on Bosnian edged weapons are the raised studded screws, and these appear also on some Balkan yataghans. I have often wondered the purpose of this feature, and if some particular reason for it.

Most interesting comments on the shamshir marking, another example of a key weapon form appearing on a blade as a makers mark or other meaning. On other threads we have noted some tulwar blades stamped with a katar, another dagger blade with what appears to suggest a madu. I'd like to know if there is more detail on this marking as well.

Teodor, thank you for the note on the circle marking, and there is much more research on these and so many other markings. I am always happy to see any interest in markings and symbolism in weapons as you know!!

Great thread on these interesting knives!!!

Best regards,
Jim

[Battara]

Many thanks Jim. I had forgotten about green being a sacred color in Islam....

TVV thank you for sharing and bringing this thread up again - I have not seen the other blade marks before.....

[paolo]

Hi all,
also my one has the Battara mark.
Paolo

[Tatyana Dianova]

Last Sunday I've got my first bichaq at the local antique market. It has a surprisingly good condition. The interesting thing about it is the inscription on the scabbard. On one side there are 2 large letters FK and on the other inscription "Frank Karl", which seems to be a maker's signature. The blade has a usual scimitar mark, which can also be read as a mirrored "f" :shrug:

[Battara]

Paolo, did not see yours - very nice.

Tatyana, yours is also very nice with that unique variation in hilt form that I have seen. And yours is also laminated damascus steel.

Paolo - I wonder if yours is also laminated.....

Oh, Tatyana - isn't "Frank Karl" German? Perhaps the former owner.

[ariel]

I heard that there was a study by the Swedish army on military knives, and they came up with the fact that the best all-around military knife ended up looking like... a chef's knife!

This knife is of that sort; totally useable and functional for almost any work, and if necessary even sliding through ribs.

A great knife.
In a Russian book about fighting knives, the author gives the highest marks to Barong. Of course, the technique and the preferred way of "scoring" are important: barong would not be good for stabbing and is too heavy, but for the heavy-duty slashing few models coud beat it. Moroccan Koummya is a vicious little bugger: very economical edge-wise with generous unsharpened ricasso that increases strength of the blade. Sometimes, form can be deceving: kindjals look like pure stabbers, but in fact were used mostly as slashers ( stabbing was regarded as "poor taste").
Even though stabbing has higher chance of inflicting mortal wound, slashing causes a lot of bleeding, disorientation of the opponent and, if placed right, disarming him ( think of slashing wrist tendons!). Then, one can choose the final strike. Slower, less elegant, but surer.

[Tatyana Dianova]

Battara, I think it is not possible at the moment to answer who this Frank Karl was. But the inscription is from the same period as the scabbard, judging from its look.
I'm not 100% sure if the blade is laminated (I will test it this weekend), but it is definitely differentially hardened!

[TVV]

Here is another one that ended on eBay today - somewhat unusual pommel, but what is really intiguing is the leather sheath instead of the typical wooden scabbard encased in brass:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200194226540&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=010

[Tatyana Dianova]

Well, the blade of my bichaq is laminated, has many layers, but it is not very spectacular and difficult to picture. I am pretty sure, that it is purely functional lamination and it wasn't supposed to be etched.

[Lew]

The lamination seems to remind me of shear steel I would not consider this blade a true pattern welded steel. If you take wrought iron and forge it to shape and etch it you will see the same pattern. My feeling is that this blade could have been forged from shear steel since it was exported all over the world by Britain during the late 1800s which is when I would place this daggers age.


Lew

[Valjhun]

And here mine bosnian bichaqs. Only two are marketd.

[TVV]

Beautiful and complete pieces Valjhun, thanks for sharing.

[gp]

Battara, I think it is not possible at the moment to answer who this Frank Karl was. But the inscription is from the same period as the scabbard, judging from its look.
I'm not 100% sure if the blade is laminated (I will test it this weekend), but it is definitely differentially hardened!

all these knives, cuttlery sets, daggers, kamas, bichaqs, small yataghans and yataghans made from white horn were made in Sarajevo, Foca and a few in Mostar by local craftsmen after the creation of the The Bosnian-Herzegovinian Infantry (Bosnisch-Hercegovinische Infanterie Regimente ), AKA "die Bosniaken " in 1882.
Junior officers and NCOs came from their own ( i.e. Bosnian) ranks but officers from the Habsburgian army; some Hungarian but most Austrian.
These weapons were used as gifts, souvenirs or for display at some ceremonial tasks by officers and local dignitaries ( including the Mayor of Sarajevo) between 1882 and 1916
FYI: most of the "Bosniaks" were from Bosnia and Hercegowina ( >95%) but from all confessions; just poor boys looking for food, clothing and some kind of future; shelter / security in life away from poverty and were of Catholic ( "Croats") , Orthodox ("Serbs", "Vlachs", "Montenegrins"), Muslim descent and last but not least a few percent of Roma background belonging to each of the mention religions .

So Frank Karl was either an officer (can easily be looked up in Vienna's archives and some online records) or a local dignitary or businessman from Austrian or German (Schwabendeutscher) background , which can also be found in either the Austrian or Bosnian archives

[Battara]

GP, this is fantastic! More info than we ever had on this type of knife. I have always wondered on these. Thank so much for your contributions here!

The only thing I could add is that usually one wears green in public like this if one were Muslim and has been on the Hajj. Do you think this would this apply to green hilts on these knives as well?

[Sajen]

all these knives, cuttlery sets, daggers, kamas, bichaqs, small yataghans and yataghans made from white horn were made in Sarajevo, Foca and a few in Mostar by local craftsmen after the creation of the The Bosnian-Herzegovinian Infantry (Bosnisch-Hercegovinische Infanterie Regimente ), AKA "die Bosniaken " in 1882.

This one I received a few days ago, the first one I've seen which is signed with Mostar so I think it's worth to get posted here for our records.

[gp]

This one I received a few days ago, the first one I've seen which is signed with Mostar so I think it's worth to get posted here for our records.

Sarajevo ones are commen although there is a huge variance in their sizes and handles.
Foča ones , you do not see so often on the market and mostly a couple of times per year and smaller ones only.

But yours more then worth as next to good quality it is the second one I saw in 5 years time. My compliment !!!! Excellent catch.
:)

[gp]

GP, this is fantastic! More info than we ever had on this type of knife. I have always wondered on these. Thank so much for your contributions here!

The only thing I could add is that usually one wears green in public like this if one were Muslim and has been on the Hajj. Do you think this would this apply to green hilts on these knives as well?

Not only green is the colour of the religion involved but according to their haddiths : white, red, green, black and yellow.

Although for the hajj often the colour green is indeed used, I would not think it to be applicable for a couple of reasons:

1.Bosnia had next to the standard Sunni community quite a lot of Sufi's like the Naqshbandi, Mevlani and some Bektashi who would not be involded in a hajj that much.
2. Pilgrims who had been on a hajj in the 19th century had to have financial resources and would prefferably go for silver and golden or at least plated ones or with gold plated inscriptions.
3. last but not least these knives, daggers, bichaqs and kamas were made for "foreigners" and thus mostly "unbelievers" and after 1882.

So I would presume it to be a simple variance to the white bone ones which are typical Bosnian. Perhaps for a commercial reason ?

These greens ones are not that rare or sought after and do not fetch that fancy or higher prices and are not a high priority on the collector's list of that region. I have not seen green ones outside this type

People would trade easily 3 green ones for a Mostar one...
R U watching Detlef..? :D
By the way: I only have white bone ones and will soon add pics here and am not looking out for a green one

[Sajen]

But yours more then worth as next to good quality it is the second one I saw in 5 years time. My compliment !!!! Excellent catch. :)

Thank you GP! I've assumed that it is rare but don't have known that it such rare. But like said, I've handled some of this bichaqs but don't remember to have seen one from Mostar.

Regards,
Detlef

PS: I watch! ;)

[gp]

as promised the pics of some Bichaqs enclosed. Unfortunately some came without scabbards...
lenght is between 46 and 22 cm

[gp]

2 more ( on their way...) about 20 cm long

[Sajen]

Great collection of this knives! :cool:

[Mel H]

Another one.

[aspalathos]

Here are some other pictures including the maker's mark in the form of a shamsir. I see this on other Sarajevo blades of this period. Anyone know who this maker was?
Hello that letter f mean Foča, its name of old town ,where knifes like that was made.In that time they are produced on many places but Foča and Sarayevo was No1...

[gp]

Another one.
a very nice one indeed !

[gp]

as there is quite a variety in these 1882-1916 Bichaqs, perhaps I can shed a little light and assist those of you who have one or more of these very nice bichaqs with regards to determination and comparison as there is on bichaqs in general but unfortunately virtually none literature on this type.
So a first kick off ;

next to info I already added in previous posts, the length can be betweenn 12 and 44 cm, where 12 cm is the "cutlery" type and the 44 cm more closer to the yataghan but lacks the typical yataghan characteristics. Hence I would prefer to call it an extended or long bichaq ( mostly receognized by a double "f" stamped on the blade).

Basicly the average Bosnian Bichaq during the K.u.K. era made has :

- a blade length of 18 cm ( +/- 1 cm)
- handle / hilt lenght of 9 cm (+/- 0,5 cm)
- a copper ferrule which can vary between 1,3 and 3,8 cm (!)

Blades are mostly marked with an "F" or blank. One of my collection has a cresent on the ferrule, which I believe to be a little cheeky with regards to the history of that symbol versus the Coat of Arms of Bosnia and Hercegewina...it not to be “ political” correct at that time as it would refer to a non occupying period or insurrection against the oppressor ( be it Habsburg or Ottoman).
Hence a wish or desire for freedom / independence.

[gp]

hereby 4 "18-ers" bichaqs

Sarajevo

blade: 18 cm, handle/ hilt 9 cm , ferrule 1,3 cm

Cresent or “c”:

blade: 17 cm, handle/ hilt 9,5 cm , ferrule 3 cm

"f"

blade: 18 cm, handle/ hilt 8,5 cm , ferrule 3,8 cm

blanco / red dots one:

blade: 18 cm, handle/ hilt 9 cm , ferrule 1,6 cm

[gp]

more details on the 4 ( including the cresent) hilt and ferrule

[gp]

and last but not least their scabbards: 2 metal and 2 leather ones

leather ones have a length of 20 cm, the metal ones 19,7 and 20 cm

hope this will be of a little assistance...

[Battara]

These are great examples folks! Many thanks!

My favorite scabbards are the brass ones.

[gp]

although not the bichaq type this dagger from 1890 is still part of the "Bosniaken" family and a little more luxurious (f.i. details on the ferrule and scabbard ).
It took 2 1/2 months to get from the good ol' U S of A to me ( in Europe).
April 12th to July 1st ... guess USPS used the Kon-Tiki :p
but ought to have waited 3 more days... ( 4th of ...) :)

[gp]

and as uncle Battara likes his copper scabbard...
one is happy to oblige....! :shrug:

[gp]

also nice to see is how they incorporated the top rivet nicely. Something you do not see with their bichaqs.

[gp]

and as said, better and nicer work on the ferrule than the bichaqs

[Gonzoadler]

I can show this piece with a green coloured bone handle, total length with scabbard is 29cm:

[gp]

I wonder, has there been a study of these interesting knives, which might give us some insight as to the meaning of the different marks and the decoration on the hilts. I agree with Jim that the circles and dots are most likely solar symbols, but would always love to learn more.
Teodor

Jim is wrong I am afraid to say and apologies as I overlooked this and never addressed this before.

Solar symbols would be heretical as first of all most of the makers were Muslims. Imagine using solar symbols in inquisitional Spain... the maker would end up on a pyre. Best to check the context of the folks living at that time... ;)

Being Muslim it was haram ( forbidden) to portray men hence they turned to mathematic symbols. Which resulted in most beautiful art as one still can see from Samarkand to Fez in architecture but also furniture, woven blankets, carpets, tiles, etc. Hence as well as decoration for weapons.


But they went also for their own roots: in the Middle Ages before the arrival of the Ottomans, Bosnia had their own church ( seperate from the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church). This Bosnian Church : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Church
had and still has their tombstones all over the country.

The enclosed example is one of them and if you take out on leg of the cross, you have the circle with the symbol you often see as decoration on many of the better bichaqs.
As for the "cheaper" ones or the ones needed to be produced quickly... a dot in the circle would do. The same one can see in present day Baščaršija ( old market in Sarajevo's old ancient town center) People used and still do use just examples they had & have around them ( and Bosnia & Hercegovina is full of them)

[Yvain]

Thanks for this very useful information GP ! My girlfriend is bidding on one that will be auctionned tomorrow (fingers crossed ! ;)) , so I'm sure she will be happy to have this at her disposal to read through !

[gp]

Thanks for this very useful information GP ! My girlfriend is bidding on one that will be auctionned tomorrow (fingers crossed ! ;)) , so I'm sure she will be happy to have this at her disposal to read through !
je vous en prie / you're welcome !

are you sure....your girlfriend and a bichaq...? Mon Dieu.... what have you done ...?
time 4 U 2 call the guys from Patria Nostra (the Foreign Legion) and enlist ASAP!
Attention: the recruitment office is not in Marseille anymore but AUBAGNE
Allez, allez cher Amice....depechez Vous :D


Good luck at the auction !!!!


FYI: the picture is of a sapeur arriving in Paris for the Bastille Day parade, July 13th 1939

[Battara]

Actually GP, I will disagree with you on Bosnian Islam. There is a thing called "Folk Islam" just like "Folk Christianity". At one time up till even the Balkans wars in the 1990s, there were elements of old Christianity in several rural and semi-isolated areas that are officially Muslim. Folk Islam is even in Indonesia and the Philippines, as well as in other places. Officially yes the old forms are forbidden, but then again, you make note of the prohibition of the human form in Islamic art, yet we see a lot of human forms in Persian and Indian art. How may Persian khanjars have I seen with human figures carved into them? I also see similar issues with the human face in older Sulu Muslim art in the southern Philippines, where mixed in with the ukkil (vegetative motifs) is a human face.

All of this to say that I believe that these symbols could very well be old solar motifs but not mentioned or recognized as such. There are whole traditions of Folk Islam in Persian and other Shia groups (aka Assassin groups for example).

[gp]

...

[gp]

Actually GP, I will disagree with you on Bosnian Islam....
... I believe that these symbols could very well be old solar motifs but not mentioned or recognized as such. .


Sorry to say dear friend but whether you agree or not with me is irrelevant nor is your belief.

No offence intended but prior to replying and philosofing, why not first call or write an email to Sarajevo (university, museums, libraries) to deal with facts and be 100 % sure ?

They don't bite and speak & write English, German, French and many other languages, you know...

FYI: the National Museum of BiH releases publications and together with historians also books. Recently one on cold weapons, preceding, following, continuing, elaborating "Starinsko oružje" by Vejsil Curcic 1926.
Hence making all speculations superfluous. For now only in Bosnian though. That's true and makes it hard(er) but not impossible. But they answer me in English... :shrug: :)

[gp]

back to the topic. Hereby an overview of several "f" marks.
Remarkable: one is "mirrored"; forgery or a left handed one ?
the latter actually not a correct custom in an Islamic country ...

[gp]

and also the variety of writing "Sarajevo"and year

[TVV]

Jim is wrong I am afraid to say and apologies as I overlooked this and never addressed this before.

Solar symbols would be heretical as first of all most of the makers were Muslims. Imagine using solar symbols in inquisitional Spain... the maker would end up on a pyre. Best to check the context of the folks living at that time... ;)

Being Muslim it was haram ( forbidden) to portray men hence they turned to mathematic symbols. Which resulted in most beautiful art as one still can see from Samarkand to Fez in architecture but also furniture, woven blankets, carpets, tiles, etc. Hence as well as decoration for weapons.


But they went also for their own roots: in the Middle Ages before the arrival of the Ottomans, Bosnia had their own church ( seperate from the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church). This Bosnian Church : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Church
had and still has their tombstones all over the country.

The enclosed example is one of them and if you take out on leg of the cross, you have the circle with the symbol you often see as decoration on many of the better bichaqs.
As for the "cheaper" ones or the ones needed to be produced quickly... a dot in the circle would do. The same one can see in present day Baščaršija ( old market in Sarajevo's old ancient town center) People used and still do use just examples they had & have around them ( and Bosnia & Hercegovina is full of them)

I personally think things are much more complex than that, and everyone is correct, at least to a degree.

The Muslim religion does not specifically forbid images of living things, but idolatry. Some interpretations of the Quran link images of living creatures with idolatry, hence why it is avoided, but there are exceptions. For example, there are a dragon and a phoenix on Sultan Suleyman I's famous yataghan, and monster (sometimes referred to as doplphin) heads on the scabbard chapes of thousands of yataghans from the 19th century. Obviously, any outright worshipping of the sun itself would be unacceptable.

An interpretation of the circle and dot motif in a Muslim context that I have seen is that it represents Allah, as the dot in the middle and his control over the universe, as the circle around him. Whether this is true or not I cannot tell, as only the artists who applied these symbols really knew their actual meaning.

However, often times a symbol will be repeated in folk art, its meaning and interpretation changing over time. Such symbols exist all over the world and predate Islam. The origin of the symbol is therefore most likely of a solar nature. After the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans and the conversion to Islam of certain parts of the population, its meaning may have been adapted to the new religion, while it remained in use in applied arts.

As for the three dot in a circle symbol, I will just point out that it was popular all over the Balkans, not just in Bosnia. In what is nowadays Bulgaria, it was used along with the single dot in a circle motif for decorating the hilts of shepherd's knives (or karakulaks), this particular type of knives referred to as "ashirtmaliya" (the word of Turkish origin meaning "decorated") in knife smith inventory books.

[gp]

Quite some Bosnian bichaqs (especially the handles), are mostly inspired / derived from the yataghans by their makers.
Obviously from the pre Habsburg era, these examples were Ottoman yataghans.
Hereby enclosed an overview of the different types of yataghan handles

[gp]

I recently purchased this one which :

- has not the typical circular and colored ornaments on the handle which can be found on the "Habsburgian Bosniaken" ones
- has all other criteria match and determine it as a Bosnian or at least a Balkan one I believe
- has a stamp on the blade which I have seen somewhere but can't recall where

unfortunately no scabbard though...

so kindly requested to assist as I am very much looking forward to your advice on its age, the stamp and if I am correct or mistaken concerning the origin, much obliged !


take care and stay healthy you all !

Gunar

[corrado26]

I've got this bichaq today with the shamshir mark on its blade

[Battara]

Great examples and thank you GP for showing me those nicely worked brass scabbards and ferrules! One day when I grow up, I'll be able to replicate their quality of workmanship.

Congratulations Corrado26 on this new and nice piece.

The "f" marks I think are simplified mini-shamshirs being used as maker's marks.

TVV has a good point (every pun intended :D ) in that old symbols are given new meanings with the arrival of a new religion. We see this happening in the Ottoman empire, the Philippines, India, and Pakistan/Afghanistan, Morocco, and Sudan.

[Rick]

I have seen so far not another mark like this one. :confused:

[Battara]

Ooooo............that's interesting!

[gp]

some further info on the Bosnian Bichaqs:

The handles are bone with ornamental inlay work of bronze and glazed ceramic. The graceful blades are single edge, mostly powerful 5 mm (3/16 ”) thick at the spine, - stout and sturdy carbon steel blade with an upswept needle-pointed tip with file work to the thick sphave one.

They have generally a tapered full tang - tapering the tang gives the knife a balance that can't be achieved any other way. Tapering the tang gets rid of unnecessary weight that you don't need. It also is considered the sign of a seasoned knifemaker; tapered tangs are associated with hand-forged blades.
Some do One side of the blade display a motif of "Kilij" (Turkish saber)

Ref.: "Islamic Weapons. Maghrib to Moghul" , by Anthony C. Tirri, p. 168

Added a picture of an ( rare ) example without the circular ornamental inlays

[gp]

I've got this bichaq today with the shamshir mark on its blade

may I compliment you as yours looks very well indeed and is in a very good condition, also its scabbard. Good catch! Gratuliere ☼

Piece of advise on the bone hilt / handle if I may be so bold :

it looks at one side in a perhaps poor condition. Not to bad but you have to check and watch it

to avoid further deterioration and small pieces splitting off, I would advise to gently take a little drop of olive oil ( pure, not mixed and light colored only- not heavy colored; I use virgin olive oil) on your fingertip and gently and softly rub it over the darkish, damaged parts.
Take a soft cloth to take , rub the dirt off and repeat it if required: you'll see it yourself. Do not overdo it and take no risk. just a little bit.

It will not only clean the dirt a little but also feed the (mostly made from buffelo or ox ) horn and hence avoid further drying out.

Not quite necessary but only visual improvement (if you want) you can use the finest stainless steel wool (Edelstahlwolle extra fein ) to smoothen the surface. Like they do with lefaucheux pinfire revolver bone handles

[corrado26]

Very good advice, thanks a lot. I used olive oil and hope that it will avoid to further dry out the grip material

[gp]

my latest bichaq purchase; I wouldn't call it rare but rather unusual as this type of grip or handle is actually only found in the cutlery section or the most limited to the small knife (non bichaqs) section. Most Bosnian bichaq look like small yataghans or derived from them

This one from Sarajevo has :

a total lenght of 34 cm
without scabbard 33 cm
a blade lenght of 23 cm

[gp]

I have seen so far not another mark like this one. :confused:


I have seen a similar knife around but in a much better version or at least the decent standard Bosnian version with the kilij mark.
Please compare the handle / grip.

I can not recall exactly where but your mark rings a bell as I have seen it around before... could be as a Turkish or rather Ottoman one.
Could be that a local craftsman copied the Bosnian one and marked it with the Turkish / Ottoman cresent...

[gp]

just bought a bichaq at an auction with this description:

"Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger Knife with Carved Horn Grip & Silver Mounts. Total Length (inside scabbard if present) : 10 1/2" Blade Length : 5 1/4"

Obviously it is a Bosnian Bichaq, a non K.u.K / non Habsburgian one but dated prior the occupation by Habsburg Austria , so before 1878.
My guess would be around 1850 /60 based upon exhibition pieces in Sarajevo I saw.
Now I shall have to wait until it arrives and clean it ;)

[Battara]

Very nice! Unusual to have a hanger assembly on the back of the scabbard. Very nice workmanship on the front and throat of the scabbard.

[gp]

just bought a bichaq at an auction with this description:

"Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger Knife with Carved Horn Grip & Silver Mounts. Total Length (inside scabbard if present) : 10 1/2" Blade Length : 5 1/4"

Obviously it is a Bosnian Bichaq, a non K.u.K / non Habsburgian one but dated prior the occupation by Habsburg Austria , so before 1878.
My guess would be around 1850 /60 based upon exhibition pieces in Sarajevo I saw.
Now I shall have to wait until it arrives and clean it ;)

warning :

I bought it from Sofe Design Auctions, LLC in Richardson, TX, United States yesterday.
Price $ 175 + 25 %
whilst the estimate was $300 - $500.
no minimum price.....so lucky me.....

Not so

as it just got cancelled and I received an email:

Please be advised that the seller has requested your permission to remove the following item:
Lot 406, Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger
which you've won during Fall Antique Arms & Art, Nov. 7th, 2020 on Nov 07, 2020.


Reason for removal - clerking error.

Never in 30 years auction experience I met this...after 1 month a clerking error took place... just like the dagger was Asian....
So much for integrity...for an item that was weeks on their books and internet
Well s-beep- happens, so I'll sing an old Lizzy song


I am just a cowboy, lonesome on the trail
A starry night, a campfire light
The coyote call and the howling wind wail
So I ride out to the old sundown

Stay healthy you all !

:)

[David R]

This is not on. Someone did not get their hoped for price and so reneged on the deal, Shame.

[Ian]

... Please be advised that the seller has requested your permission to remove the following item:
Lot 406, Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger
which you've won during Fall Antique Arms & Art, Nov. 7th, 2020 on Nov 07, 2020.
Reason for removal - clerking error. ... This statement from the auction house is critical. You are being asked for permission to cancel the sale. As I read this, you can say "No" and the sale should be transacted properly. Also, you are not being told what the "clerking error" was and who made that error. If it was the seller, then that's his bad luck! If it was the auction house, then the seller might have some recourse in getting compensation from the auction house. You should not be denied a legal transaction because somebody else made an error.

[gp]

Thnx!

I did send LiveAuctioneers who is the intermediate my complaint but they don't get involved except advice to agree with the permission to remove or if the seller receives no response from me within 7 days, the item will be removed from your shopping cart automatically, and you will not be responsible for payment.

So now I insisted and requested the auction house Sofe Design Auctions, LLC to legally comply and invoice me so I can have my forwarder pick it up.

Strange rules from Sofe Design Auctions, LLC in Richardson, TX, ...

[gp]

just got their reply...

"It was a clerking mistake on Liveauctioneer.com. You did not win this item. Sorry. Auctioneer rewarded the winning bid to a floor bidder."

Guess what ... my winning bid I placed 2 days ago is still the highest on the internet...

what's happening with the good ol' U S of A ...? Should I give Rudy (Giuliani) a call...?
:shrug: ;) :p :)

[Ian]

Hi gp,

This all smells very fishy! You were identified as the winning bidder, and asked permission for the seller to withdraw the item. Having pushed for what is rightfully yours, and you expressly did not grant the requested permission, you are now told that you were not the winning bidder!

If you want to take it further, you (or, preferably, your legal representative) could file a consumer complaint with the respective Attorneys General in the states where the auction house and Liveauctioneer.com are registered. Without knowing the specific details, it may be possible (perhaps) for you to argue that one or both are in breach of contract for the sale, and that you were provided false or misleading information as to the winner of the item. It may not be worth your time and expense, but a good lawyer would certainly help.

Thanks for posting the details of your transaction. Readers here can form their own opinions of the respective companies involved.

I stopped buying from auction houses 40 years ago--buyers premiums were too expensive and there were too many shenanigans like your unfortunate experience.

Ian.

just got their reply...

"It was a clerking mistake on Liveauctioneer.com. You did not win this item. Sorry. Auctioneer rewarded the winning bid to a floor bidder."

Guess what ... my winning bid I placed 2 days ago is still the highest on the internet...

what's happening with the good ol' U S of A ...? Should I give Rudy (Giuliani) a call...?
:shrug: ;) :p :)

[gp]

Well I leave it as it is and will not bid on this auction house ever again.
Especially asI left a second higher bid 24 hrs prior the auction ...

I have other positive experiences with US auction houses so nothing against them or the good ol’ U S of A ...

Except it did cost me a double Eliah Craig single barrel... :)

[gp]

received a reply on my request for details:

"Dear Sirs / Madams Regarding lot 406 from Nov 7th 2020 Auction held by SOFE Design Auctions We had to cancel this transaction due to a clerking mistake. The higher winning bid ($275)was awarded to another bidder who was bidding via another bidding platform. We use 6 bidding platforms. The clerk has made a clerking mistake by closing the lot too early! And since she/he opened the next lot for bidding she/he was unable to reopen lot 406 again to continue showing a bidding progression. In our practice it happens! In any case: Auctioneer's decision will be final. Auctioneer also does not accept liability for technology, website or internet failure, or unforeseen circumstances that may influence the execution of bids. This matter is closed now. Again, please accept our apology. Hopefully we'll have similar items in the future! "

you can guess what my action will be for similar auctions in the future with them.... :D

[gp]

and now something else...


a very nice overview containing some Ottoman cold weapons:

http://www.banatheritage.com/english/images/Publications/ColdArms.pdf

[G. Mansfield]

GP and others, I too have had experience with the questionable practices of this auction house when I had "won" an item in their online contest but never received the item. Previously to that, I had no issues the one other time using their services during an auction. I am not here to bash, but just beware, read reviews and use best judgment with this auction house when considering.

Anyway, here is my Bosnian Bichaq for the thread record. A larger example at 37cm total, and 37,5cm in sheath. This was purchased from Lew's estate sale a few years back.

-Geoff

[gp]

nice one Geoff !

just received my smallest bichaq ever :)
which made up 10 times my auction experience and "lost" lot

total length 18 cm
blade 10 cm
ferrule 1 cm and steel; unlike all others which are copper, this one is part of or tied to the blade
handle. grip 7 cm
scabbard 13,5 cm

it clearly differs from the "cutlery" knives (who are without scabbard anyway) and I never saw one like his before.

Perhaps an apprentice piece or just show of mastership,
who nows.... :shrug:


Your thoughts please..

much obliged !

Gunar

[gp]

my recent addition is a strange one as I only found 2 bichaqs which came close. First of all its dimensions:

total length 35 cm
blade: 22 cm
ferrule 2 cm
handle: 11 cm

[gp]

the "strangeness" is in the grip: I only saw a similar-ish placed here by member Valjhun in 2008 and by a US seller ( the latter with regards to the ferrule)

The top of the handle is very nicely worked with plural symbols, although both examples lack the redish dots which mine has.
Also for the first time I see the half-cirlce with dots in the ferrule ( poorly in mine but very well in the enclosed picture to be seen).

Any one has seen this semi-circle before ?

[gp]

my recent addition is a strange one as I only found 2 bichaqs which came close. First of all its dimensions:

total length 35 cm
blade: 22 cm
ferrule 2 cm
handle: 11 cm

the blade has a double mark. Normally with the longer bichaqs one sees a double "f" ( versus a single "f" for a normal size bichaq ), but this one has 2 different ones on 1 blade: I never met 2 different ones on 1 blade before as well. Did any of you have one or has seen one with both marks together on 1 blade?

[Battara]

Not yet.

The "f" is a stylized shamshir.

[gp]

Not yet.

The "f" is a stylized shamshir.

Yep, thank you. Actually a kılıç or also sometimes called kilij, being the Bosnian and Ottoman name for it ( meaning sword). Remains strange to have the shamshir / kılıç together with the other mark :shrug:

I know them to be seperate on a blade but not combined...

[Battara]

Yeah have to admit I've not seen that before.

[gp]

new family member...
unfortunately no scabbard but interesting the "w" or "m" type of motives one normally finds on the copper scabbard, are here found on the ferrule


Total length: 28 cm. - 11 inch
Blade length: 18 cm. - 7 inch
Handle made from (buffalo or ox) bone

your comments please...thank you

[DaveA]

Very Interesting! My bichaq from Bosnia looks very similar.
The scabbard of this bıçak has a monogram FK engraved on the front and "Franz Karl" on the back. Sorry I don’t have a closeup photo handy.

- Dave A

Last Sunday I've got my first bichaq at the local antique market. It has a surprisingly good condition. The interesting thing about it is the inscription on the scabbard. On one side there are 2 large letters FK and on the other inscription "Frank Karl", which seems to be a maker's signature. The blade has a usual scimitar mark, which can also be read as a mirrored "f" :shrug:

[gp]

Very Interesting! My bichaq from Bosnia looks very similar.
The scabbard of this bıçak has a monogram FK engraved on the front and "Franz Karl" on the back. Sorry I don’t have a closeup photo handy.

- Dave A
hello Dave,

have a look as I did provide input on FK:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=251629&postcount=25

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=58625&postcount=16

[Ren Ren]

Obviously it is a Bosnian Bichaq, a non K.u.K / non Habsburgian one but dated prior the occupation by Habsburg Austria , so before 1878.
My guess would be around 1850 /60 based upon exhibition pieces in Sarajevo I saw.

This is the only scabbard with a hanging ring. Or I'm wrong?

[gp]

This is the only scabbard with a hanging ring. Or I'm wrong?

No, you're not (completely) wrong...as there is a little more than meets the eye to it.
Cold weapons used in the Ottoman Balkans, moreover Bosnia, Albania and Greece would not have a hanging ring as they would be carried in traditional scarf, wrapped around a man's waist, which functions as a belt.

The one you are refering to is more a "show" piece of a rich merchant or an aristocratic of a lower rank, or a lady's dagger (as can be found in Serbia between 1860-1900).
Serbia were from approx. 1862 pan-Slavism turned their eye more to the west than the Ottoman east.
Hence influence and contact in these border erea's with Austria, Hungaria and their Slav brethren ( Russia and others like the sokol movements ) would cause the introduction of other practical ideas and fashion as f.i. some of these rings.

[Ren Ren]

Thank you! The hanging ring (or lack thereof) is an important part of the scabbard design. But the back of the scabbard is not often seen in the photo.

[gp]

Thank you! The hanging ring (or lack thereof) is an important part of the scabbard design. But the back of the scabbard is not often seen in the photo.

additional: for the more richer ones, a leather belt was an option. Multiple functions:
1. to protect the clothes when on display for offical celebrations and occassions
2. support carrying plural weapons ( pistols, bichaqs and yataghans)
3. provide support and relief of the total weight
4. comfort when riding a horse ( and avoid risk losing a valuable weapon)

@Detlef: see, a nice example of a yataghan without the fancy decoration of coral and stones but simple handle of metal and bone only :)

[Ian]

additional: for the more richer ones, a leather belt was an option. Multiple functions:
1. to protect the clothes when on display for offical celebrations and occassions
2. support carrying plural weapons ( pistols, bichaqs and yataghans)
3. provide support and relief of the total weight
4. comfort when riding a horse ( and avoid risk losing a valuable weapon)

@Detlef: see, a nice example of a yataghan without the fancy decoration of coral and stones but simple handle of metal and bone only :)Gp, I could be wrong but the hilt on that yataghan looks like ivory to me. Very nice tooling on the leather pouch and belt.

[gp]

Gp, I could be wrong but the hilt on that yataghan looks like ivory to me. Very nice tooling on the leather pouch and belt.

Hello Ian,

it could well be an ivory one. If your expertise determines it as ivory I shall not contradict. Most of the Balkan yataghans (this one is from Dalmatia) were made from buffalo or ox bone but a few of ivory. My knowledge of the latter is very limited.
Indeed quite some craftmanship on the leather but that has a long tradition in that region ( as with their filigree)

[Saracen]

new family member...
unfortunately no scabbard but interesting the "w" or "m" type of motives one normally finds on the copper scabbard, are here found on the ferrule


Total length: 28 cm. - 11 inch
Blade length: 18 cm. - 7 inch
Handle made from (buffalo or ox) bone

your comments please...thank you

A very interesting new family member
If it were not for the typical Balkan design of the hilt with brass inserts, then in the shape of the blade and fullers, I would have seen a Surmene knife.

[gp]

A very interesting new family member
If it were not for the typical Balkan design of the hilt with brass inserts, then in the shape of the blade and fullers, I would have seen a Surmene knife.
you are not 100% but 1000% correct and exactly the same was my thought as well.
And both of us might be wright and wrong as the determination of origin is indeed not based upon pure mathematical science, not being the same of or no deduction of certain region's characteristics.

Please allow me to elaborate: it would be too simple to explain it by the interaction of people moving around in the Ottoman empire as blacksmith both in the Ottoman empire and in Europe as well, were neither well to do nor had the ambition or freedom to move around...even if they would wish to.
In general they would earn a good living where they were in the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th century.

A small exception could however have caused this : between 1860 and 1878, also in 1918 the Ottoman empire was shaken and quite a lot of people moved, some forcibly (a form of ethnic cleansing) whilst others voluntarily moved from east to west and west to east; from the Balkans to the Ottoman / Turkish territory or vice versa as states were created in the Balkans
Obviously talking with them their cultural heritage. So you can find in present Turkey quite a lot peoples from plural national backgrounds / roots (Bosnian but also Greek). And the otherway around from the Black Sea erea, so also the Surmene / Sürmene region folks might have or had moved to the Balkans and with the cold weapons tradition in Bosnia it was easy for a Blacksmith Master /Majster to fit in and perhaps occassionally produce such a dagger. Still it doesn not exclude that it is either a fake or a Surmene copy of a Bosniak of that time....

Although I know a lot about the "Bosniaks" you can never be sure but I was more than willing & prepared to take the risk and add it to my collection. As you said it has too many details which could place it in Bosnia....if not...hard luck but still a very nice dagger :) Thank you for your comment, which is highly appreciated and confirmed my thoughts as well :
well done and my respect !!!

[Saracen]

A small exception could however have caused this : between 1860 and 1878, also in 1918 the Ottoman empire was shaken and quite a lot of people moved, some forcibly (a form of ethnic cleansing) whilst others voluntarily moved from east to west and west to east; from the Balkans to the Ottoman / Turkish territory or vice versa as states were created in the Balkans

Thank you for explaining this possible borrowing between Bosnian knife and Surmene knife.
Sometimes they have a very similar decor of the handle, but even the blade characteristic for of the surmene knife does not allow us to confidently determine their origin. It would be very interesting to know more about these similarities.

[gp]

Thank you for explaining this possible borrowing between Bosnian knife and Surmene knife.
Sometimes they have a very similar decor of the handle, but even the blade characteristic for of the surmen knife does not allow us to confidently determine their origin. It would be very interesting to know more about these similarities.

I agree and also am looking for info or sources to learn more on this topic.
Most of my sources are from the former Yugoslavia / their successor states (Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia) also Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey...
but unfortunately the attention ( also by the Anglo-Saxon and German / Austrian authors of cold weapons ) focusses more to the "big" and more fancy ones likes yataghans and hardly or to a lesser degree on these kind of knives (bichaq in Turkish, kama and cakija in Slav languages).
90% of my info dates from publications between 1880 to 1980 and a few are recent ones but sadly nothing new or more on these types of "potential" cross-over ...and contacting folks in the mentioned regions does not result in much new info on the smaller knives...

Even authorities like Vejsil Ćurčić ( around the 1920ies) , Marija Šercer (around the 1970ies) and Tarik Kožo (around 2010ies) do not go into that detail sadly...

[gp]

to add more to the above, the newest cousin in my "Bosanceros"☺ collection.

Although it doesn't have the yataghan-like ears or curl with stubs which in combination with the bone handle and circular ornament are typical Bosnian, this one has a "flat"end of the handle as one sees with more Ottoman cold weapons but due to the handle's details ( red stone and circular ornament ) is certainly Bosnian..
The blade is 20 cm long and the writing in silver is 18.. and could be Sarajevo. It is made prior the Habsburg occupation I believe from around 1850 -1870.
Sadly no scabbard...

[gp]

this one, with scabbard and blade 17 cm Sarajevo 1887 written in silver, looks like the white bone version of Gonzoadler's green one

[gp]

although I do not prefer damaged daggers, an exception if one stumbles on something rare or not often found like this Bosnian dagger

lenght dagger 20,8 cm
Blade : 11 cm
handle made from horn
silver one-sided writting Foca 1890

sadly one circular ornament missing and a small horn piece as well
the rarity for me is the Foca name and unyataghan-like form of the top of the handle
.
What are your thoughts ?
Should I also repair the missing piece of horn ?

[gp]

notwithstanding the enormous response :p....
I decided to leave it as it was and not to repair the broken part by filling / replacing the hole by new horn material.

Another nice Bosnian bichaq, pre Habsburg era is this one with a leather strap, 29 cm long

[gp]

some more pics. What do you think about this bichaq ?

[Kubur]

notwithstanding the enormous response :p....
I decided to leave it as it was and not to repair the broken part by filling / replacing the hole by new horn material.

Another nice Bosnian bichaq, pre Habsburg era is this one with a leather strap, 29 cm long

Hi

Why do you think your knife is Bosnian?

I have a small book about Balkan knives.

It is a nice book but 20% of the knives published are not from the Balkans, they are Turkish, Kurdish and North Africans.

Be carefull your post is turning like the Omani khanjar thread: a catamonologue or a monocatalogue...

:)
Kind regards,
Kubur
:)

[gp]

Why my friend?

Simple: based upon literature I quoted and my knowledge...

Before I joined this forum, to my big surprise, concering Bosnian cold weapons, I only read "I think" ....but hardly any comments based upon knowledge...
Nothing of books and publications like the ones I quoted ( between 1880 to the present day).

Try Kozo (270 pages and published in 2010! and in English...). If you would have consulted Kozo and the by my quoted sources, you would have known the answer and not have come up with a premature assumption...:D

Just check my contributions and the literature I mention. One might learn a little bit:)

FYI: many publications are not only from the former Yu(goslavia) but also Bulgaria and Romania. A lot in English but when not, the pics and name "Bosna" will tell you the answer.Even the ones in cyrillic...

Also the much refered Elgood here...got most of his Balkan knowledge from a Serbian lady who was and still is leading when it comes down to Balkan cold weapons knowledge: she wrote 3 books! Guess a few to no one here know her name ;)

To give you one criterium: the decoration on top of the blade... But obviously that's not the only one, more criteria are present...

My knowledge on other arms is virtually zero, so I do cherish and treasure the comments as I do learn a lot but on Bosnian cold weapons I dare say few here can match my knowledge. No disrespect intended

My intentions were pure; to share my knowledge and educate folks here. If that offends you, I am sorry and apologize for that inconvenience and shall refrain from entering further comments and leave it gladly up to you and other big shots to advise and judge on Balkan arms ☼☺☼ Nema problema as they say in Bosna:D:D:D

[Kubur]

My intentions were pure; to share my knowledge and educate folks here.

Your thread is very useful and informative, we are all obsessed by something. No worries here...

But we are all the same and a forum is for discussion.

Being from Bosnia or the Balkans doesn't make you more knowledgeable than others.


Try Kozo (270 pages and published in 2010! and in English...). If you would have consulted Kozo and the by my quoted sources, you would have known the answer and not have come up with a premature assumption...:D


It is the book that I have Kozo!
It's a nice book but as I said 20% of the knives are not from the Balkans. So if it is your reference then you might be mistaken.


To give you one criterium: the decoration on top of the blade... But obviously that's not the only one, more criteria are present...

My knowledge on other arms is virtually zero, so I do cherish and treasure the comments as I do learn a lot but on Bosnian cold weapons


This is a good example, the decoration on top of the blade can be found in many countries of the Ottoman empire.

So as you wrote, your knowledge on other arms is virtually zero...
My friendly advice would be: read on other countries otherwise all you will see in the Balkans will be from the Balkans...
Many Russians and Caucasians are doing the same mistake.

;)

[gp]

Your thread is very useful and informative, we are all obsessed by something. No worries here...

But we are all the same and a forum is for discussion.

Being from Bosnia or the Balkans doesn't make you more knowledgeable than others.



It is the book that I have Kozo!
It's a nice book but as I said 20% of the knives are not from the Balkans. So if it is your reference then you might be mistaken.



This is a good example, the decoration on top of the blade can be found in many countries of the Ottoman empire.

So as you wrote, your knowledge on other arms is virtually zero...
My friendly advice would be: read on other countries otherwise all you will see in the Balkans will be from the Balkans...
Many Russians and Caucasians are doing the same mistake.

;)

I am neither from Bosnia nor the Balkans, please do read my contributions before you judge...
again stop assuming & judging prematurely

Nor do you comment the other books and publications I mentioned ...
Pick out 1 item to prove you're correct.
Nice discussion technique for discrediting some one (actually 1 of the 9 manipulation techniques in psychology) but doesn't impress me ...

I leave the stage to you if that makes you feel good and a big boy :)

[Battara]

Guys I'm going to stop this right here.

It is one thing to debate the issues, it is another to get nasty and overreact. We are moving in that direction so I will call for a break and take a breath. Going any further in personal attacks or responses will bring consequences............

Thank you.

[Saracen]

My intentions were pure; to share my knowledge and educate folks here.

Thank you for the interesting information, sources and examples of Bosnian bichaqs that you share here.
It is always very interesting and useful to learn new things from a person who is specially and in depth dealing with a certain narrow topic, and it would probably be very good if the discussions in your topics were more active.
I will venture give the conversation some impetus:
I think:) that the decoration of the scabbard and handle of this knife a typical for Bosnian bichak zigzag hatching may refer it to this family.

[gp]

a nice piece of hand craft and art is this filigree (sterling) dagger belt buckle I recently purchased.

From filigree perspective it looks like Dalmatian, Bosnian or Montenegrin.
Also similar like the type of sterling brooch I found in Sarajevo, Kotor or Dubrovnik in the 1980ies .

This one looks the same, although the brooches were without the 2 dots on the grip. Looking close at the silver dots on the "bichaq" they might indicate as well a Caucasian origin like the grip of a kama / shalta / khanjali ...but these again do not have the curved blade as the Balkan bichaq or Ottoman handzjar... the dots could also be functional as a kind of support / firmness (which makes sense...)

Still a nice piece of art dating back to a wide period of 1880-1960 to hang above the Bosnian kama, bichaq and yataghan :)

[Gonzoadler]

Hello,

I think the miniature dagger of the belt is not a Kama or Khanjar, I would say it is a Bebut. These daggers are similar to Kamas and Kindjals, but they have a curved blade.

Regards
Robin

[mahratt]

a nice piece of hand craft and art is this filigree (sterling) dagger belt buckle I recently purchased.

From filigree perspective it looks like Dalmatian, Bosnian or Montenegrin.
Also similar like the type of sterling brooch I found in Sarajevo, Kotor or Dubrovnik in the 1980ies .



This is a Russian buckle. Buckles of this kind were often made of niello silver and often bore the inscription “Caucasus”.
But there were buckles just like yours:
https://www.vitber.com/lot/31228

Dagger - "bebut"

[gp]

This is a Russian buckle. Buckles of this kind were often made of niello silver and often bore the inscription “Caucasus”.
But there were buckles just like yours:
https://www.vitber.com/lot/31228

Dagger - "bebut"

Bolshoj spassiba. Very nice pieces, especially the one in the link and last picture: beautiful !
Guess they all are 84 zolotniki?

And guess I must now buy a Russian dagger to go with it….
bozje moj….again spending money...dawaij dawaij, pasjli pasjli ….:-)

Question for advice:


I found this description:

"Bebut – curve Caucasian dagger, which became widely known in the early 20th century, when it was adopted by the Russian army. The dagger is different curved shape and large size.
The origin of the dagger .

Curved blades – the hallmark of the East. And bebut is no exception, since it is originally a traditional Caucasian dagger. The name of the blade “bebut” comes from the Turkic word, which means “thigh”.

It’s hard to say when the story of this dagger began. It was spread only in the early twentieth century, when it became part of the armament of the Russian army. Presumably, the “ancestor” of the blade of such a shape is a curve or Persian Ottoman dagger.

In the late 19th century dagger Bebut was in use among the Cossacks. If the flat dagger was armed with all without exception, the curved blade was chosen by the scouts, since the thin and long blade provided the convenience of carrying a cold weapon in any situation.

Bebut is officially known since 1840 as part of the uniform of the Kuban Cossacks, but its history is much older. In General, earlier called the Bebut any dagger with a curved end on the blade, while now under this name is understood as “Bebut” model 1907.
Bebut in the Russian army

Cossack Bebut came into the Russian army in 1907. At this time there is a need for more weapons to replace the authorized artillery pieces. A knife with Bebut was easier to wield than a sword, besides, its form is considerably easier.

In the first years of the Bebut armed with only the higher ranks, but beginning in 1909 artillery Bebut was made available to all military. Despite the lack of tradition use daggers in Russian army, curved blade quickly became an indispensable part of weaponry.

In subsequent years, on the choice of this dagger did not have to regret, because the curved blade proved itself as a cutting, chopping and as a weapon. This is due to the peculiarities of the blade, its shape and methods of sharpening."

My question concerns the mentioning of the Kuban Cossacks: would this dagger thus be different from the dagger of the Zaporozhian Cossacks?

If so: what dagger would the Zaporozhian Cossacks have and use ?

[G. Mansfield]

Here is one to add for the records, acquired a few weeks ago from a friend.

-Geoff

[Ren Ren]

One of the most interesting knives I've seen in the past few years.

[Battara]

Gents, I love the belt buckles!

And that bichaq - Beautiful! Stunning! Is the hilt made of ivory and the scabbard silver"?

And by the way, if you ever want to throw this away please let me know (I'll now go back to hiding behind the trash cans :D )

[gp]

Gents, I love the belt buckles!

And that bichaq - Beautiful! Stunning! Is the hilt made of ivory and the scabbard silver"?

And by the way, if you ever want to throw this away please let me know (I'll now go back to hiding behind the trash cans :D )

the scabbard is silver and the hilt could be ivory but also very fine quality horn

looks quite similar like this Bosnian one:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=256678&postcount=67

[Battara]

Upon closer inspection the material looks like really good quality bone and beautifully carved!

[gp]

a new addition to my collection but a strange one :

first the year 1879: 1 year after the conquering and annexation of Bosnia by Habsburg...not often seen
Secondly the style of the blade is more like the Ottoman yataghan (a wave-like type) compared to the later more dagger-like type ( almost European)
Third., the hilt, handle which has no similarity with the yataghan types ( sadle, ears, etc) but looks more like the joint-end of a bone being carved in a fancy "animalistic" decorated way...(?); never seen something like this but that doesn't mean anything...
Last but not least the decoration on the hilt / handle / grip clearly differs from other types which can be seen here in several threads.( with the exception of the 2 circles)

Have you seen or met this type before ? Do you have one in your collection? Can you advise or have knowledge about this one ?

[gp]

and the last pics .
what do you think ? Might it be a local trying to be creative, an apprentice first trying his skills or somethin else...?
I honestly wouldn't know but think it interesting nevertheless

[gp]

just a foot note concerning the Ottoman period and more specific on the Janiczars :

obviously based upon "the glory and victory "songs were made,
also on the skills, beauty and sucess of the fire arms like this example

[gp]

This is a Russian buckle. Buckles of this kind were often made of niello silver and often bore the inscription “Caucasus”.
But there were buckles just like yours:
https://www.vitber.com/lot/31228

Dagger - "bebut"

next to the 2 buckles shown in the above reply by mahratt ( the 2 pictures again enclosed), I found a 3rd one / my 2nd which looks similar to the Caucasian one but without the name in ofcource Cyrillic.
Made in Niello silver - .875 (84 Zolotniki) with a 2nd Kokoshnik Moscow mark dating 1908-1917.

[gp]

bak 2 the bichaqs...


just bought this one. Lenght of a typical Sarajevo bichaq, the grip is a little more like a Yataghan but is not that rare to be seen either.

Strange is the fact that most Bosnian K.u.K made bichaqs (22-37 cm ones) have a long straight blade.
Only the "cutlery" type ( < 20 cm) ones have the Yataghan typical "curly" or "curved" or snakish shape blade.
And ofcourse the Yataghan themselves...
Also the decoration differs from the K.u.K. Habsburg period 1878-1918 ones and looks more like the Ottoman times art work from pre 1878
as can be seen in the bichaqs with Arab lettering.
So a kind of match / crossover? between two periods one might say perhaps ?

First time I encountered a Balkan and Bosnian bichaq with such a blade .

The scabbard is a "marriage" as it doesn't belong to this shape of blade.
No problem as I can use it for a “straight" blade bichaq without a scabbard.

But strange it is . Will post , if interest is there, more pics upon its arrival.

Your thoughts and comments please...?

thnx a lot!

Gunar

[gp]

bak 2 the bichaqs...


.
Also the decoration differs from the K.u.K. Habsburg period 1878-1918 ones and looks more like the Ottoman times art work from pre 1878
as can be seen in the bichaqs with Arab lettering.
So a kind of match / crossover? between two periods one might say perhaps ?

First time I encountered a Balkan and Bosnian bichaq with such a blade .


But strange it is . Will post , if interest is there, more pics upon its arrival.

Your thoughts and comments please...?

thnx a lot!

Gunar

it arrived and I found the answer(s) myself;

First the scabbard does clearly not belong and some one sold it to the previous owner as being one.Which it isn't.

Secondly, looking at the decoration this tells it all:

1. the Bosnian Turc language written in Arabic signs is correct, but the latin one is "upside down". Root cause: the man doing this was "Latin" illiterate...
Why ? the date tells it all :

2. 1878 is the year of the Treaty of San Stephano and also Berlin, which changed the map of Europe and was the prelude to both the Balkan Wars 1910-13 and the Great War or WWI.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Stefano#On_other_regions


and coming back to the bichaq: the occupation of Bosnia by Habsburg and its insurrection in both 1878
so the maker had no clue how Latin writing looked like and hence the upside down "error" which is not seen in later knives, kamas, cakijas, bichaqs and yataghans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian_campaign_in_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina_in_18 78
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Had%C5%BEi_Loja

which makes this bichaq unique and a "quicky":

being made just first half 1878 it had the Arab decoration, just to be added with the Latin in 1878 in the occupation year when Sarajevo was "apeaced" and the prohibition of bichaq and yataghan production not yet active (1878-1882) to sell to one of the sr. K.u.K. militairy staff in charge of Bosnia. The maker wanted quickly to make some money and adjusted it for sale to the new rulers . Who can blame him in those troubled days...? Think also of Indonesia and Holland and the Tjikeroehs production

It also explains the "yataghan"like snakish blade which is typical Ottoman and can only been seen in the early Habsburgian / K.u.K. years as later the blades were straight.

[Battara]

This is a really nice variant.

[gp]

talking about a variant or (to me a little at least) strange is this one I just puchased

Indeed a bichaq but not the regular "warrior" or combattant one, nor the one for ceremonial purposes (like after the Habsburg annexation).

Why?
Simple; its size is too small / short.

Dimensions:
total length 21,0 cm with scabbard
blade 19,5 cm - width 1,8 cm
handle/grip 9,5 cm

strange in my opinion is the handle /grip : not the typical "yataghan"type but an animal (looks like a deer)

at those time you didn't had such a thing like "artistic" freedom , nor where the makers that couageous or daring to try such a thing.. Specially in the Ottoman times. My guess would be that it was made for a child of either a (very) rich merchant or aristocrat in the Balkans.


remark: the decoration on the ferrule is very fine and not seen or hardly on bichaqs as is on this one...
the metal scabbard looks "scruffy"but my guess is that the leather on it has disappeared, hence leaving it "naked"


What do you think ?

[gp]

talking about a variant or (to me a little at least) strange is this one I just puchased

Indeed a bichaq but not the regular "warrior" or combattant one, nor the one for ceremonial purposes (like after the Habsburg annexation).

Why?
Simple; its size is too small / short.

Dimensions:
total length 21,0 cm with scabbard
blade 19,5 cm - width 1,8 cm
handle/grip 9,5 cm

strange in my opinion is the handle /grip : not the typical "yataghan"type but an animal (looks like a deer)

at those time you didn't had such a thing like "artistic" freedom , nor where the makers that couageous or daring to try such a thing.. Specially in the Ottoman times. My guess would be that it was made for a child of either a (very) rich merchant or aristocrat in the Balkans.


remark: the decoration on the ferrule is very fine and not seen or hardly on bichaqs as is on this one...
the metal scabbard looks "scruffy"but my guess is that the leather on it has disappeared, hence leaving it "naked"


What do you think ?

update on the "scruffy":

after it arrived i noticed the metallic little look at some spots on the scabbard were actually silver ! So no leather like some bichaqs have.
The complete scabbard has been silverplated originally and sadly it disaapeared through time.
Looking at the size, the "deer" hilt, I think a nobleman or rich merchand had it made for his son pre 1878, not in the Habsburg but Ottoman era.

[gp]

a new one which I hardly have seen:
the round top of the hilt / grip and not "fancied up" with metallic support or decoration.
Be it as support of the blade or just as an additional decoration.
Total lenght: 36 cm, bichaq only 35 cm

Judging by the decorations on the blade, this looks exactly the same like the Sarajevo ones I have prior the Austrian occupation in 1878 or the latest in the transition 1878.
So definetly Ottoman period, which I would judge timewise between 1850-1870.

The round top reminds me of the Ottoman gravestones in Bosnia, specially in Sarajevo which were in Ottoman times decorated with this turban-like decoration at the top, which looks similar here with the bichaq...

Your thoughts please, what do you think ? or is it just a misplaced silly and wrong assumption ?

[gp]

just received my new bichaq of the non yataghan type blade; a triangle one.

You do not see these "triangle"ones that often and in the forum I only saw one example in member Valjhun's collection posted 2008 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=59498&postcount=23

my previous posted and 2 other ones are one from Sarajevo and Foca 1890.

This one is from Foca as well but no date on the blade.

Does any forum memeber have a traingle one and if positive:

- kindly requested to give me the specs / dimensions
- show us a picture

thank you very much !☼

[gp]

Two nice pieces :

a nice Bosniakenmesser / bichaq with a blade of 35 cm and wooden copper covered scabbard

and the second is a long dagger which based on its lenght I never have seen before;
Total 45,5cm with scabbard, witouth 40 cm and blade 27 cm .
Scabbard is made out of wood, leather cover and metal / iron at end and top.


Has any of you seen the 2nd long type before or have you one in your collection ? in the latter case, kindle requested to provide a picture, thank you