Pics: Snake-like Curves [Archive] - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Alam Shah

1st June 2007, 12:26 PM

... And I think the keris with luk still can be used for weapon. In my mind, the keris with luk more suitable for weapon because it can make wider rip on body/skin when it used to stuck. That because from first luk at the point to bottom side made more wider. When we stuck the keris to the body, every luk will make wider rip on the skin.

Different with straight keris which has simple form. But stright keris more focus to the target and make a dirrect stab. In the other hand, the keris with luk look stronger/rubbery because it has luk which seems like a spring when we used to stuck. I think it shown that the mPu on past period had thought about weapon structures, strength, and capabilities, etc... ;)

Thats just my opinion ;)Hi, I'm speaking specifically to Pengging style of luks (luk Rengkol / Sarpa Nyander) which is exaggerated.

Technically, with its slender profile, I doubt it makes an effective weapon.
In a one-on-one encounter, an opponent could possibly deflect an attack quite effectively, with capability to disarm the keris wielder, with a piece of cloth/clothing.

When facing multiple opponents, this type of blade tends to get stuck when stabbed. Retraction might be slower, worse if it get stuck in between the victim's ribs. If targeted at the lower abdomen area, it might not penetrate the opponent's 'ikat pinggang' or the blade might 'buckle' due to its 'fragile' looking nature.

It might be more for aesthetics reasons rather than practicality, imho. :)

My question: Where lies the strength of these Pengging-specific luk blades? :confused:

Alengka's Prince

1st June 2007, 12:44 PM

Hi All,
Forgive me, I disturb you again and again, with pictures. What I can share with you is only in pictures. Only pictures, and just only collection. Thank you.. The second snake-like curves spear, supposed to be Pengging style luk. Pengging is a period before the beginning of Mataram period... The style of swimming snake?

Ganjawulung

Hii Ganja (Pak Jimmy),
Yes correct!! that you were disturbing me again and again, as you have some Rare & Nice Pengging Tumbaks, but you just show them to me. You never allow me to offer some "mahar" on even only one of them. He..he..he.

Sometime it becomes an addictive being "disturbed" by such this.

Thank you Ganja,

Alengka's Prince

ganjawulung

1st June 2007, 02:19 PM

Nice, I've seen Pengging examples from Hidayat's collection, (in pictures only) :p. On a personal level, although these might look intimidating, I find these blades and spear points to be ineffective as weapons. Perhaps mostly used as ceremonial? :confused:
Dear Shahrial,
What I learned from Javanese tangguh, is mainly "style that differ from other period". So it was a matter of identity. That is the most important. From the style of weapon, and of course the specific style of sheath, one can differ where did the pusaka's holder from... (IMO, and no "direct source")

To learn tangguh, is not a study of just reading. But also seeing, looking, watching carefully thousands of blades with different styles. After "jam terbang" (Oops, flying hours? Help my English, please...) advanced, then you may be able to know -- or at least to predict -- from with style.

Pengging, very special in luks. Thin like Majapahit style, but good iron, good "garap" (working), although only for short period... (I will add more, soon)

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah

1st June 2007, 04:23 PM

Dear Shahrial,
What I learned from Javanese tangguh, is mainly "style that differ from other period". So it was a matter of identity. That is the most important. From the style of weapon, and of course the specific style of sheath, one can differ where did the pusaka's holder from... (IMO, and no "direct source")Thank you for your input. ;)

To learn tangguh, is not a study of just reading. But also seeing, looking, watching carefully thousands of blades with different styles. After "jam terbang" (Oops, flying hours? Help my English, please...) advanced, then you may be able to know -- or at least to predict -- from with style. I do not learn tangguh or claim to learn. I'm just pointing out the stylistic differences compared with pieces from other period. Those that I've seen had been identified by those whom are familiar with tangguh. So I'm not guessing, in that sense.

Pengging, very special in luks. Thin like Majapahit style, but good iron, good "garap" (working), although only for short period... (I will add more, soon)...Hi Ganja, I agree Pengging does have special luk form... that part I've seen from Hidayat's pieces. It may have whatever you've said, but how does it fare physically?

My earlier comment is just my personal observation and opinion.
My opinion still stands, unless it could be persuaded otherwise. :)

ganjawulung

1st June 2007, 04:33 PM

Dear Shahrial (part 2),
I like to have a keris from "short period" tangguh, like from Kesultanan Pajang (1551-1582) and of course from Pengging period (after Kesultanan Demak 1480-1550) and before 1582 Mataram Period. Usually, the short period has a very specific type. Like Pajang, has a special type in the base of two sogokan. (I can't say it with word. One must see the blade).

Pengging, has a "luk rengkol" with good iron, and slim model. The first spear in the picture above, is very strong. (With a "gigir sapi" or say it, back bone in the middle of the blade), strong enough to stab somebody. The Pengging style (picture 2), is also strong although it looks slim (but not to thin, with good iron).

Are those spears only for ceremonial purpose? I don't know. But in my opinion, the slim blade is quite strong to stab somebody... You will try?

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung

1st June 2007, 04:38 PM

dear Ganja
Why disturb? Is a pleasure for eyes and mind! :)

Thank you Marco,

Knowledge on keris is not only reading or making the new keris and sell it to other person with certain good price, but also seeing as many kerises possible. Keris is like the book itself. We can not learn tangguh (style, based on the period the making of the keris) from just reading books. You must see the details with your own eyes...

ganjawulung

1st June 2007, 04:43 PM

Hii Ganja (Pak Jimmy),
Yes correct!! that you were disturbing me again and again, as you have some Rare & Nice Pengging Tumbaks, but you just show them to me. You never allow me to offer some "mahar" on even only one of them. He..he..he.

Sometime it becomes an addictive being "disturbed" by such this.

Alengka's Prince

Oh, no... Not allowed to an Alengka's Prince. This Pengging spear belongs to Ayodhya's Prince.. (Just kidding). Your're welcome to see my new collection next week. That's what I have. Just collection... And I will disturb you again and again with pictures...

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah

1st June 2007, 04:49 PM

Dear Shahrial (part 2),
I like to have a keris from "short period" tangguh, like from Kesultanan Pajang (1551-1582) and of course from Pengging period (after Kesultanan Demak 1480-1550) and before 1582 Mataram Period. Usually, the short period has a very specific type. Like Pajang, has a special type in the base of two sogokan. (I can't say it with word. One must see the blade).The short period is probably the reason why there isn't enough time to create more styles... Maybe, if it's not too much to ask, could you share with us, in pictures, maybe we can learn something. ;)

Pengging, has a "luk rengkol" with good iron, and slim model. The first spear in the picture above, is very strong. (With a "gigir sapi" or say it, back bone in the middle of the blade), strong enough to stab somebody. The Pengging style (picture 2), is also strong although it looks slim (but not to thin, with good iron).

Are those spears only for ceremonial purpose? I don't know. But in my opinion, the slim blade is quite strong to stab somebody... You will try?

GanjawulungMaybe you could ship it over and I'll try stabbing myself with it. If you don't hear from me, hmmm... I might be gone, otherwise, your blade might be damaged. :D ;)

ganjawulung

1st June 2007, 04:54 PM

...Maybe you could ship it over and I'll try stabbing myself with it. If you don't hear from me, hmmm... I might be gone, otherwise, your blade might be damaged. :D ;)

Ha, ha, ha, but I wouldn't ship it to you...

Alam Shah

1st June 2007, 05:03 PM

Ha, ha, ha, but I wouldn't ship it to you...Just kidding ya... don't take it to heart, ok. ;) I prefer constructive opinions... You have very nice pieces. The 'Pengging' pieces are not many and hard to come by (real ones that is).

I do welcome more info on 'Pengging' period pieces.

ganjawulung

1st June 2007, 05:10 PM

Dear Shahrial and All,

These pictures below, showing spear point of tangguh Pajajaran (The Hindhu Kingdom, the ancestor of Islamic Kingdom of Cirebon). It wears dhapur (people called it) "kuntul ngantuk" (sleepy bird, a kind of paddy field bird with long beak). Tangguh Pajajaran, usually has a good iron, good pamor (Pajajaran Kingdom has good relation -- if I'm not mistaken -- with Portuguese). But not Pajajaran awal (in the beginning of Pajajaran), which usually not quite good iron. Nearly budo iron in kudi and kujang...

I don't know whether you see a "raja gundala" in this Pajajaran spear or not.. It was formerly owned by a dukun (practitioner) in Central Java. And the dhukun had died, his son sold the spear to me...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung

1st June 2007, 05:18 PM

Dear Shahrial and All,

Want more? This is a very humble piece, a spear which (supposed) bears tangguh Mataram (Islam, not old Mataram Hindhu) period between 1582-1749. The dhapur is "korowelang", a kind name of lokal snake...

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung

1st June 2007, 05:22 PM

Hi friends.... :)

Just want to join, here I posted another keris with luk which called "Rengkol" as Gonjowulungs spears.

Wah, Mas Hidayat,
I am very very interested in the "kelengan" (black only) keris. The garap is so nice. From which tangguh, mas?

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah

1st June 2007, 05:27 PM

ganjawulung

1st June 2007, 05:40 PM

Dear Shahrial and All,
This piece, is from tangguh Cirebon, almost the same period of Demak. (Demak 1480-1550). Dhapur trisula. Many pusakas in Cirebon, are tombaks and kudi or kujang of Hindhu Pajajaran. This is one of the popular model of Cirebonese trisula (three points spear). They have also, dwisula (two points spear). Hope no too much. Sorry for disturbing you...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey

1st June 2007, 09:45 PM

ganjawulung

2nd June 2007, 04:45 AM

These are quite unusual and attractive forms, Ganja.

Could you oblige with a 90 degree close up of the metuk of each of your Pengging tombak, and a 90 degree close up of a section of the blade?

I would appreciate it if the metuk could be photographed without the landhean, so that the first section of the pesi can be seen.

I apologise for lodging this request with you, and hope it does not cause you too much trouble.
Dear Alan,
Hope these following pictures will answer your request. The first spear, I suppose not from tangguh Pengging, but the luks are pengging-like style. Unfortunate, the first one was waxed in the landeyan, so I could not open it. But the Pengging spear, I am showing you with pleasure in these pictures.

Ganjawulung

Mans

2nd June 2007, 06:00 AM

Wah, Mas Hidayat,
I am very very interested in the "kelengan" (black only) keris. The garap is so nice. From which tangguh, mas?

Ganjawulung

Thanks, Pak Ganjawulung.
Actually me my self not too sure about the tangguh of my keris :confused: .
So, would you please give me an advice. Did it the Pengging keris too ?
Here I send more pictures.
Thanks.

Raden Usman Djogja

2nd June 2007, 10:39 AM

pengging or pakubuanan???

ganjawulung

3rd June 2007, 02:32 AM

Dear Mr Hidayat and All,

Tangguh is not a certainty. The word itself shows, that the meaning of "nangguh" (in keris term) is "guessing the period of making, based on specific details of the keris or spear"). If I say: "My keris or spear bears tangguh Pajajaran or Pengging, or Majapahit", once must be understood to as "supposed to be made in Pajajaran period" or possibly, "supposed to have Pajajaran style,". Many kerises, supposed with certain tangguh, actually was made in the different period after.

From time to time, "knowledge" on tangguh is an oral and visual knowledge. One learns (or knows) tangguh, from seeing blades or spears. Sometimes from written opinion in the past, but really difficult to imagine the reality, without seeing examples. What I've known about tangguh, also seeing from thousands of kerises from hundreds of keris owners. Either they were keris collectors, or royal family (kerabat keraton), or at least from people which has collection of old heirlooms. You may find such source in Surakarta (Solo) or Yogyakarta.

"Nangguh duwung" (guessing the period of making the keris), is always debatable. In my experience, other people can be other opinion on tangguh. But at least, there are certain compromises in specific details, like specific luks, the shape of ganja, the shape of kembang kacang, the sogokan (pajang style, if I'm not mistaken, has a specific form of 'bawang sebungkul' -- form of sogokan base in the keris, not form of pamor --), and tangguh pengging with very specific luks usually (not certain) not more than five luks.

Some Mataram style, has rengkol luks too. (See pictures below, spears supposed to be from tangguh Mataram Senopaten, or Senopaten style at least). One decides tangguh, also from the iron of the blade. Tangguh Sedayu (actually, Sedayu is the noble name of empu Supamandrangi in Majapahit period or he wore name Empu Pitrang in Blambangan. Sedayu, very wellknown of its specific 'black' iron which is only known by seeing it.

Like Pengging, was not a period of a kingdom. Pengging was only a Kadipaten in the period of Demak Islamic Kingdom. Pengging under Ki Ageng Pengging (formerly Ki Kebo Kenanga), disobeyed the King of Demak as a result of 'different aliran of Islam' with Demak -- see 'stories' on Syech Siti Djenar -- and Pajang period, is a very short Kingdom after Demak, but just before Mataram (Sutowijoyo, or Panembahan Senopati).

From which tangguh? Let's guessing your keris, afterwards...

Ganjawulung

Mans

3rd June 2007, 04:23 PM

Dear Mr Hidayat and All,

Tangguh is not a certainty. The word itself shows, that the meaning of "nangguh" (in keris term) is "guessing the period of making, based on specific details of the keris or spear").......
........
From which tangguh? Let's guessing your keris, afterwards...

Ganjawulung

Actually I still waiting for your expertise regarding my keris, Pak Ganjawulung.
Raden Usman had gave his opinion (thanks), and perhaps it can be a Pengging or Pakubuwanan keris. But I'm not sure, because the ricikans form of my keris not shown the Pengging keris. I think the Greneng and Jenggot too sharp and the ada-ada also sharp too for Pengging :confused: .

ganjawulung

3rd June 2007, 06:27 PM

Actually I still waiting for your expertise regarding my keris, Pak Ganjawulung.
Raden Usman had gave his opinion (thanks), and perhaps it can be a Pengging or Pakubuwanan keris. But I'm not sure, because the ricikans form of my keris not shown the Pengging keris. I think the Greneng and Jenggot too sharp and the ada-ada also sharp too for Pengging :confused: .k

The luk's style, is pengging style. Very wavy. But if you see the details, you will find the 'strong' characteristics of "not tangguh pengging". Details of "rong dha nunut" (often erroneously spelled as "rondo nunut") or double greneng in the keris' tail, plus the complete ricikan/details in the gandhik -- see, there are "janggut" and "jenggot" on the "sekar kacang", clearly believed to be "Empu Kasa Style" or at least Madurese style.

"Rong dha Nunut" or double greneng, means "two dha above the greneng". Dha, is the 12th character of Caraka Script (ha, na, cha, ra, ka, da, ta, sa, wa, la, pa, dha, ja, ya, nya... etc). The form of one greneng, is "dha" in Caraka script. And "nunut" is "to go with someone, for instant if someone invite you to go with his car together...) Please don't spell it as "rondo nunut" or "I go together with a widow", or "The widow is living with me...". About this, of course Mas Mans Hidayat already knows well.

Many Mataram style kerises bear the complete ricikan like "Kasa's style" or Madurese style. Look also my "Kalabendu" luk 29 in the other thread. There are also double greneng, or "rong dha nunut". It supposed, that the empu of the Kalabendu keris, was Madurese origin.

About your keris, is quite embarassing. Because, the "garap" or work of art, is very fine. With kruwingan on both side of the blade, from "sor-soran" (keris base) to the point of the keris. Like many Mataram kerises. The iron, also embarassingly good.

Overall, the "garap" quality of this keris is excellent. But, I guessed, that this is a "nom-noman" or "nem-neman" keris. Kerises which were made in the Mataram era (1582-1789) and after -- until now, usually called as "keris nem-neman". Please, correct me if I'm mistaken, Mr Hidayat...

Ganjawulung

Raden Usman Djogja

3rd June 2007, 10:57 PM

dear Gonjo,

the borderline between nem-neman and sepuh may be vary. to people who favor majapahit will consider keris made afterwards as nem-neman. to people who favor mataram will consider mataram kerises as tangguh sepuh.

to me, if and only if, the date of keris made is younger than my birthday will be considered as nem-neman. it relates to my dream. instead of as part of history, I want to watch keris as a part of art which is still being developped by society. Whenever keris becomes a part of history, so does javanese.

anyway, in discussion, I will follow the borderline (nem-neman v. sepuh)accepted by most discussants, "ngeluk practice".

ganjawulung

4th June 2007, 04:59 AM

...the borderline between nem-neman and sepuh may be vary. to people who favor majapahit will consider keris made afterwards as nem-neman. to people who favor mataram will consider mataram kerises as tangguh sepuh.

to me, if and only if, the date of keris made is younger than my birthday will be considered as nem-neman. it relates to my dream. instead of as part of history, I want to watch keris as a part of art which is still being developped by society. Whenever keris becomes a part of history, so does javanese.
Many thing always debatable in this keris world. Here yes, and There no. It is no wonder. Like Yogyakarta and Surakarta for instant, in the neighbouring city but "opposing each other" in the past, often found contradictory. In Wayang play, Arjuna played by women dancer in Solo, but by men in Yogya. Modern kerises developped very quick and advanced in Solo, but very very slow in Yogya. And in many cultural aspects, you'll see contradictories between Yogya and Solo. It is quite dikotomic. Although only 64 km apart...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey

4th June 2007, 09:38 AM

Thanks very much for those pics, Ganja.

Sorry it took me a few days to get back to this thread. I was involved in sporting competition over the weekend.

Pengging is a problematical tangguh. I've seen a number of keris that have been identified as Pengging by people whose opinion I must respect, but never two keris the same. The concensus of opinion seems to indicate that what I show below are the dominant characteristics of tangguh Pengging, but getting two knowledgeable people to agree that a particular keris is Pengging seems to be asking for a lot.

Characteristics of a keris of tangguh Pengging:

Tanting:- light

Besi:- fine grained and dense

Pamor:- a rough distinct grain that sometimes runs across the blade rather than parrallel with the edges

Baja:- middle quality, correctly forged and heat-treated.

Pawakan:- the cross section is like rotan; some keris have kruwingan; the wanda (sorry, I cannot give an adequate English word) is a haunted feeling.

Gonjo:-sirah cecak very finely pointed, but sometimes rounded, gulu meled is very long, cross section of gonjo is rounded

Gandhik:- large, well proportioned, but rather short.

Blumbangan:- boto rubuh (fallen brick), deep and wide

Sogokan:- wide, deep, round bottomed and sides undercut

Ada-ada:- small and not to a sharp ridge

Kruwingan:- deep and continuing to the point (where kruwingan exists)

Luk:- very deep , steep curves; these curves are very different to those found in all other keris.

Wadidang:- a long deep curve that starts suddenly.

The three most respected ahli keris whom I have known during my life were all in agreement that these are the characteristics of a Pengging keris, however, getting universal agreement from them that a specific blade was Pengging was an entirely different matter.

Probably the major problem that tangguh presents is that in recent years collectors and dealers have wanted to apply it to classes of keris that it was never intended for, and the result is that now we have a very great deal of confusion.

Personally, I am extremely reluctant to be at all definite in respect of tangguh from any photographs. Even the very best, top quality studio photographs in hardcopy can be misleading, to try to play the tangguh game from internet photos is something that is simply beyond my ability. Yeah, something like an old, degraded Segaluh, I'm prepared to give a qualified opinion on, but most other classifications, I would want the bare blade in my hand before I'd be prepared to venture an opinion.You cannot feel the weight and balance from a photo, and you cannot feel the material. You cannot look at the weld joint where the pamor meets the steel core, and see what sort of welding has been done. Plus 100 other things you cannot do from a photo. As Ganjawulung has already pointed out, you need to handle thousands of blades under respected guidance before you can get a feel for tangguh, you cannot learn it from books. I don't believe it is possible to give positive tangguh opinions from photos, either.And tombak are 100 times more difficult than keris.

I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

ganjawulung

5th June 2007, 07:14 AM

I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

Which Jawa? Solo?

ganjawulung

5th June 2007, 07:27 AM

Disturb you, again and again... With pictures. This supposed (yes, just suppossed) to be Segaluh style, if not the tangguh Segaluh... Please forgive me for disturbing you, again and again...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey

5th June 2007, 08:24 AM

Tangguh giving men something to talk about?

Actually, I heard it first, maybe 25 or 30 years ago in Malang.At the same time I heard a lot more jokes specifically directed at Solo and Jogja people---jokes that do not bear repeating.

Then I heard it again in a different form from a good friend, who happens to be a woman, in Solo.

Mans

5th June 2007, 12:07 PM

Pak Ganjawulung :)
Thank you for your expertise. “Nangguh” keris or to estimate where and when the keris had made is a one aspect on keris culture placed on the top rank on the keris knowledge. And I’m sure that you knew about that. Indeed that the Tangguh of keris can be analysis from many aspects. And I thought the men who has good experiences about the keris culture know well about this. Especialy men who live and interaction in the culture where the keris had made and used. To analys the keris we cannot leave the cultures, because the keris not just a thing or object. The keris is a cultural pieces too.

And was right that some aspect to analysis the tangguh can be seen on the blade style. Like luk style, panetes, greneng, gonjo, kembang kacang, wadidhang, tikel alis, trep-trepan pamor (pamor and iron blended), etc... Tantingan and tingtingan usually can be used if we're not too sure about the era (period), like the keris which made on Segaluh (Tangguh Segaluh) and keris Segaluh which made on Mataram period (Tangguh Segaluh Yasan Mataram). So, the people who has good experiences and intently to learn the keris culture (not just at keris market of course), had seen too many keris style and always well touching with the keris everyday can guessing the keris by seeing the form of the keris and ricikans without handed the keris by them self. So, from the pictures we also can guessing (nangguh) the keris, especially to know by our self. And I think this topic ever discuss on other thread.

As the cultural object and talisman, the keris gave many deep meaning like philosophy, histories and honour of cultural aspect. So, everything on the keris, especially Tangguh, not just trifling. That just my humble opinion, Pak Ganja :(

And regaring my keris which has luk rengkol, this can be a Daleman Sumenep keris which estimated about 18th century. So, as your expertice, this keris has ricikans as Sumenep Maduranese keris. And it shown to me that not just a Pengging keris which has luk rengkol. Some keris from Mataram Sultan Agung priode also has deep luk like the Pengging keris.
So, thanks a lot for your expertise :)

A. G. Maisey

5th June 2007, 11:59 PM

Pak Mans, although you were addressing Pak Ganja in your most recent post, it is obvious that at least some of my remarks were in your mind, thus, although you did not deign to address your comments to me, I have no hesitation in addressing my comments to you.

When we give an opinion on anything, we need to be able to defend that opinion.

If the opinion cannot be defended, it is merely empty words.

When we give an opinion on the tangguh of a keris, we need to be able provide a solid argument in respect of exactly why we believe the keris to be one tangguh, rather than another.As you so correctly point out, those who deal seriously and conscientiously in keris knowledge may not regard any elements of the keris in a trifling manner.

I agree with you, it is possible to guess at a tangguh from a picture of a keris.

It is even possible to guess at a tangguh when all we see is the top of the gonjo with the keris still in the wrongko.

It is possible to guess at the tangguh of a keris that previously occupied a wrongko.

It is possible to guess at the tangguh of a keris with our eyes shut, and relying only on feel.

However, it is not possible to provide a defensible opinion in respect of the tangguh of a keris, unless we handle the keris.Just as it is not possible to learn tangguh from pictures.

We should remember that a guess is not an opinion, and the meaning of "tangguh" when applied to the keris does carry the sense of "opinion", not "guess".

In private correspondence between friends, it may be quite legitimate to venture an opinion on the tangguh of a keris, based only on a photograph.

However, in a public forum I consider it irresponsible to provide opinions of tangguh which are based on only photographs.

Pak Mans, your level of keris knowledge and understanding is clearly high, as is the knowledge and understanding of Pak Ganja. However. many people who read and contribute to this forum do not have similar levels of knowledge, most especially in respect of tangguh. Providing guesses at tangguh, rather than defensible opinions can do irreparable damage to the potential of these people to learn.

I would ask you to consider this example:-

if we go to the doctor with some illness, that doctor , if he is at all competent, will use all means at his disposal to diagnose the illness before he provides an opinion on exactly what the illness is. He does this because apart from the duty of care he has to his patient, he knows that if he is wrong, and cannot defend the opinion he provided, he could face severe consequences.

If the doctor has vast experience, he may venture an opinion in respect of some illnesses upon the basis of the patient's description of the problem, and what can be seen.In some instances, this could even be done without the patient being present.

However, if a lay person, lacking medical experience observed this "arms length" diagnosis, that lay person could well come to believe that competent diagnoses could be made in all cases in the absence of the patient.

Compare this example to the practice of providing guesses at the tangguh of keris, based upon a photographic image of that keris.

I feel that it may be legitimate practice to publish a photograph of a keris which one has handled, and provide an opinion on the tangguh of that keris, together with the reasons which have helped in the formation of that opinion. This could be of value and could assist in the increase of knowledge of those who have not had the benefit of close personal experience in gaining a knowledge of tangguh.

However, I also feel that to provide "guesses" at the tangguh of a keris which has not been handled , and for which it is impossible to give a supported opinion , is at best less than wise, and at worst misleading and destructive.

What I have written above is my opinion, and as always I acknowledge that the opinions of others may vary from my own. I have no wish to impose my opinions upon the actions of other people, all I ask is that what I put forward be considered, together with the possible implications flowing from continuance of providing "guesses" at tangguh, rather than supportable opinions, and taking into account that no serious student of the keris regards anything to do with the keris in a trifling manner.

David

6th June 2007, 04:21 AM

Thank you Alan. Those are some of the most sensible and reasonable words i have read on these forums in respect to tangguh.

drdavid

6th June 2007, 08:25 AM

As a very novice keris appreciator I thank you Alan for your insights into this difficult area and your very nice analogy ( I am an experienced doctor and your comments ring quite true :D ).
cheers
DrD

Raden Usman Djogja

6th June 2007, 09:55 AM

Alan,

enlighting!!!

Usman

Mans

6th June 2007, 08:18 PM

Pak Mans, although you were addressing Pak Ganja in your most recent post, it is obvious that at least some of my remarks were in your mind, thus, although you did not deign to address your comments to me, I have no hesitation in addressing my comments to you.
.................
Hi Pak Alan :)

Sorry if you feel that my latest posted looks like pointed to you, whereas not sure like that. Also sorry if you feel so sensitive with my opinion. I just posted some my trifling opinion. And sometimes the joke can make a misunderstanding if not at the right places we talk about.... especially if talking about the cultures, countries or another thing which have sensitive sense on forum ;)

Back to the Tangguh of a keris, it’s just like an estimation of period. As Pak Ganja said that the meaning of tangguh is guessing (although the true meaning is more than just guessing .... ). So any argument are welcome for everyone who think has experiences and need to learn about the keris. And so that some forumities also ever asked more detail pictures to give their opinion. What for ? I think to make sure about the tangguh if we talk about the tangguh of a keris, did it ? And I’m sure that you know more about this topic because you has high level experiences about the keris too ;)

So, I do apreciate with all of your expertises in this forum. And hope every forumities who want to learn the keris can get the knowledge by reading the opinion and seeing the photographs. And that is one of the purpose to posted some keris pictures on the threads, did it ? And I always hope that my english will be better and better for further in order to can give more clear opinion and know the meaning of other opinion :)

Regards,
Manshur Hidayat :)

A. G. Maisey

7th June 2007, 12:32 AM

G'day Pak Manshur,

Whether or not your previous remarks were made after taking account of what I had previously posted is not material to my position on this matter.

Similarly, I must correct you in your misunderstanding of my emotional state:- I am not in the least sensitive in respect of anything you have written.

You have made your previous posts in good faith, following a direction that to you appears to be a valid one, however, an analysis of the factors involved in providing a valid opinion on tangguh will clearly demonstrate that such an opinion cannot be formed in the absence of the physical presence of the keris.

I do understand the meaning of the word tangguh. Yes, it can be taken to mean an estimate, it can also be intended to mean an opinion. It can never mean a guess.

An estimate as applicable to the practice of tangguh can be taken to carry the meaning of an approximation based upon probabilities.

An opinion as applicable to the practice of tangguh can be taken to have a similar meaning.It could be deemed to carry the meaning of a judgement based upon grounds that are insufficient for certainty.

An opinion may be either an informed opinion, or an uninformed opinion.

An uninformed opinion is based on notions carried in one's own mind, and by nature is subjective.

An informed opinion is based on objective factors and should be able to be defended, contrary to the case with an uninformed opinion, which cannot be defended.

I am certain that you have been party to a great many discussions in respect of tangguh. What happens at these discussions? Do the participants attempt to support their opinion as to which tangguh may be applied to the keris in question, or do they simply provide an opinion with no reasons? More often than not, concensus of opinion will be reached amongst the participants in the discussion, and that concensus will be formed because of the arguments put by the participants in the discussion. Those arguments will be based on the observable characteristics of the keris.

Thus, the final concensus of opinion will be based on objective factors, it will be defensible, and as such it becomes an informed opinion.

The appraisal of a keris in order to determine tangguh is not a guess, nor is it an estimate, it is a process whereby an informed, defensible opinion is formed.

It is impossible to form such an opinion in the absence of the physical presence of the keris.

What is possible from a good photograph of a keris is to use the image as an example of some of the features which may be found in a keris of a particular tangguh.

For instance, a photograph of a keris which bore characteristics of the Mataram Sultan Agung tangguh could be published along with a question from its owner asking what tangguh was applicable.

For anybody to provide the opinion that it was a keris of Mataram Sultan Agung tangguh would be absolutely and totally irresponsible, because this opinion could not be defended.

However, it would be acceptable to provide an opinion which identified certain features of the keris and the information that these features appeared to be consistent with a tangguh of Mataram, Sultan Agung.

As an example how such an opinion could be worded:-

" this keris could possibly be tangguh Mataram, Sultan Agung:- the blumbangan is squarish, the overall blade form is consistent with this tangguh, and the ron dha is the correct form for Mataram Sultan Agung; based upon the limited information available, I believe that upon close examination, this keris could be given the tangguh of Mataram, Sultan Agung"

Do you see the difference?

It is a qualified opinion. It says "yes, there is a possibility that this Mataram SA"

It does not say "yes, this keris is Mataram SA."

It is not a defensible opinion, it is conjecture, based on limited information.

Tangguh cannot be learnt from pictures, nor can it be applied from pictures. Responsible appraisal of a keris can only be carried out with the keris in one's hand.

I can see no objection to providing qualified opinions on the tangguh of a keris, and in fact, some of the opinions that have already been supplied have been qualified, not clearly perhaps, but the qualification has been there.

But I cannot endorse an approach that sets out to give a firm opinion on a tangguh in the absence of evidence which is insufficient to support that opinion.

Put simply:- we cannot just say:-" This is tangguh such and such"--- we need to give the reasons why we think it is tangguh such and such; we must support our opinion; nobody can support a tangguh opinion based on only a photograph.

Pak Manshur, I do appreciate that you are working in a language that is not your own, and I complement you upon the way in which you handle English. However, I would ask you to bear in mind that in written communication we must make clear those things which in face to face communication are obvious. In face to face communication we can easily differentiate between a casual guess and an opinion which has taken some time and effort to form. We cannot do this as easily in written communication. Many people with only the slightest understanding of tangguh read the opinions placed in this discussion group.If they see an opinion placed by somebody who is Javanese, and who appears to know something about keris, then that opinion, for those people, could well become an absolute truth. However, any opinion formed on the basis of a photograph, in respect of tangguh , can only be regarded as a casual guess. This can be very misleading for people with a lesser understanding of tangguh than you yourself have.

ganjawulung

7th June 2007, 05:04 AM

I have heard the joking comment in Jawa that tangguh was invented to give men something to talk about.

Dear Alan, Mans, and All,
Of course, I must be responsible with everything I did in this forum. if I didn't mention the things what you need in this thread (the details of keris, and so on), it was mainly a matter of difficulty to communicate the idea in English, to you all. Although not only that.

I am not joking with tangguh, though I only have a short experience in "loving" the keris world. Because, for me now, tangguh is one of the most important to learn to be able to appreciate the beauty of kerises. Really. What happened if I only know dhapur, and then suddenly faced with ten kerises, all of them bearing dhapur of tilamupih (straight), but in 10 different style, different tangguh?

Actually, the same question emerged in my mind when I was reading the Tammens' book (De Kris, Magic Relic of old Indonesia) a couple of years ago. I said, hey, how come? He presented in 157 pages (from page 114 to 271) pictures (only of course) of 79 kerises, tombaks and wedung -- all with tangguh -- but no details on why he presented this as tangguh this and that...

Some of them, are not correct, although mostly "correct". One of the not correct one is: "keris majapahit" that is actually "old small keris for offering" (which often erroneously called too as 'keris pichit' in Malay). Did I think Tammens was irresponsible?

I never put my belief in reading or hearing anything from everyone -- taken for granted. I always preserve my belief, and then, proof myself which is actually the truth. By experiencing, seeing the real thing. Was Tammens' error destruct my knowledge? Of course not. Tammens is one of my respected "teacher", although only from his book. And also, from my Javanese teacher, to know the nuance behind the objective thing. Not just kerises.

Anyway, I would ask you apology if there was any mistake from me that you considered to be irresponsible and destructive. Of course that was not my intention to. What was in my mind that, this is a "warung kopi", and not an academic forum. Although, of course, I must be responsible in whatever I did in this non academic forum.

Thank you Alan, and all. I agree with you, that it is impossible to estimate accurately the tangguh, in absence the kerises...

Ganjawulung

A. G. Maisey

7th June 2007, 06:21 AM

Ganja, nothing I have written has been intended as targetted criticism: it has been intended as an attempt to try to bring discussion of tangguh to a level and format that can operate from photographs and written communication, and assist, rather than hinder, the increase of knowledge for people who know almost nothing about tangguh.

Irresponsible and destructive actions can probably only be considered to be this when they are carried out with irresponsible and destructive intent.

Where the intent is absent, although the end result may be destruction, irresponsibility cannot be claimed.

Since in this matter there can be no charge of irresponsibility levelled, there is clearly no call for any apologies to be made.

Now that we all seem to travelling in the same direction, I feel that the way is open to continue to discuss tangguh, but using the approach of qualifying our opinions, rather than phasing them in absolute terms.

Regarding Mr. Tammens and his determinations in respect of tangguh. Some years ago I had a long and informative discussion with a highly respected Dutch keris authority and author about Mr. Tammens and tangguh. I was told that if questioned as to the reasons why a particular keris was this tangguh, or that tangguh, Mr. Tammens would not give an explanation of the indicators that permitted him to classify the keris, but simply say it was this tangguh because it had the characteristics of this tangguh. It would appear that Mr. Tammens' principal teacher was an ex-patriot Javanese gentleman, so perhaps this overaching approach is the way in which Mr. Tammens was taught, rather than the analytical approach, which is the way I was taught. In any case, when I explained and demonstrated to the Dutch author the way in which we can break the characteristics of a blade down into components, and even sub-components, and measure these components against a pre-determined standard it became very clear to him exactly how an ahli keris will determine the tangguh of a blade. I must admit, many of the people I have known who will give an opinion on tangguh do not consciously apply this same analytical approach, but when questioned, they will give answers that can be analytically aligned with the predetermined standards that I was taught.

After Mr. Tammens published his first volume, I heard an amusing story in Solo. It seems that one particular keris orientated Solonese gentleman was so incensed at what he considered to be the inaccurate information in Mr. Tammens' book, that he took it upon himself to visit Mr. Tammens in an attempt to set the record straight. I cannot vouch for this story:- it is Solo gossip, and we know what that can be like.

Ganja, when you say this is not an academic forum, I for one would very much like to believe that you are correct. We have seen the academic approach to this type of subject, and since academia does have a very prominent element of self advancement and reputation building, it can be quite destructive to goodwill and a free exchange of information and ideas. Personally, I would prefer to see us all stay friendly and stupid, rather than enlightened, if enlightenment should come at the cost of goodwill.Yeah, we're all just sitting around in the warung, pretty relaxed, nursing our cups of coffee, and swapping info back and forth. Nothing to get uptight about.But let's try to qualify those opinions about which we cannot be too certain.

Raden Usman Djogja

7th June 2007, 08:54 AM

Alan & all kerislovers,

I do ask you, all, apology if there were short and unexpalined comments of mine which could damage the foundation of keris knowledge, especially for the "beginner"

I do hope to all readers, if any question mark in mind to write those questions in this lovely "warung kopi" forum. Seemingly, ghost readers are much much much more than talkactive members. By doing this, at least, we can repair or control the possible damage. So, the sharing of responsibility not only on the writer's shoulder but also on the reader's shoulder are crucial and important.

Usman

A. G. Maisey

7th June 2007, 09:07 AM

I could not agree more Usman.

I would dearly love to see more of the people whom I know to read the posts to this little warung contribute directly to it by posting comments and questions.

David

7th June 2007, 02:49 PM

There are no stupid questions my friends and i would also like to encourage my fellow forumites to step up and ask when statements are unqualified or not completely clear to them. The study of keris is deep and complex and still holds much controversy and mystery. Tangguh may be one of it's most misunderstood components and is often misapplied to keris that were never intended to be judged by the system.
I would like to thank all of you for keeping this discussion civil and friendly. While i agree that this is not an academic forum i would still like to see the quality of the information passed on here to remain at a high level of detail and accuracy, so i do think it is important that we all try to qualify and back up our statements as best we can. It is also OK to throw out completely unsupportable ideas and theories as long as we identify them as such. Nothing wrong with stirring the pot every now and then to see what might rise to the surface. :) This type of loose and relaxed exchange of ideas can often lead to more solid understandings, sometimes quite by accident. As has already been stated, there are many new keris collectors out there thirsting for knowledge. There has also obviously been quite a lot of misinformation passed around about the keris over the years. While not an academic forum, i still think it is our responsibility to the keris community to do our best to foster accurate information and break down the misconceptions that have taken root over the years.

Mans

7th June 2007, 07:05 PM

Hi dear all.... :)
I think everyone who posted in this thread are right and gave much contribution to talking about the keris. All opinions gave good contribution to learning the keris ;) . Everyone have own argumentation which thing right by them self or communities, also have own culture which different of each other, have different level of English language... etc, which perhaps can make some misunderstanding when write some opinion. And of course, every readers (active or not) can take a conclusion by them self too.. ;) That because the keris sometimes feel so subjective. But these all shown that the keris is unique, mysterious, and always interesting to discuss, right ? :)

So, I do appreciate that Vikingsword forum gave special space of discussion for the keris by opening the "Warung Kopi" (old speeling = Waroeng Kopi :D )

And at Waroeng Kopi, sometimes peoples talking about some good idea, good topic, but sometimes also happen some little disputes. And some time feel hard to keep stay at the center. But if any little disputes, I'm sure that everyone didn't mean it ;) So... I think the discussion can be continued by talking about the keris. I'm not a moderator, but if the topic of "Pics: Snake-like Curves" think enough, we can opening a new thread. Did this thread had demostrated the Tosan Aji from Pengging era which has luk like a snake (sarpa lumampah), the Daleman Sumenep keris which also has luk like a Pengging keris, and keris Segaluh which has good pamor and iron work... ? Or still any opinion or question regarding the keris which has luk like a snake :confused:

I just hope that every keris lovers (new comers or who think they has good experiences) can learn much and more knowledge regarding the keris from this Waroeng... ;)

Regards,
Manshur HIDAYAT.

kai

7th June 2007, 09:38 PM

I would dearly love to see more of the people whom I know to read the posts to this little warung contribute directly to it by posting comments and questions.
While I often don't have to add anything to the ongoing discussions, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank those experienced members who share their knowledge as well as opinions/estimates/best guesses/etc. ;) I especially appreciate that more people have already taken the time to detail (some of) the reasons on which their conclusions have been based. Thanks for highlighting this very important point, Alan!

I also welcome the renewed interest/activity for keris Jawa very much even if these are not the focus of my current personal interest - keep it coming! No need to apologize for any of those valuable recent contributions/pics! ;)

Regards,
Kai

kai

7th June 2007, 09:47 PM

Hello Pak Manshur,

"Warung Kopi" (old speeling = Waroeng Kopi :D )
Wasn't the old (Dutch) transliteration kinda outlawed in Indonesia after the independence?

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey

7th June 2007, 10:46 PM

No, not really outlawed.

I think it was 1972 when Dutch spellings were replaced by English spellings, but there are a lot of problems with Javanese spellings.Using a modern keyboard, for instance the dotted "A" which has a sound like "O" but further back in the mouth, not at the front of the mouth. The word "ganja" is correctly spelt as "ganja",but with dots over the "A"'s---but you cannot put those dots there with a keyboard, so they become understood.

And it is pronounced like "gonjo", which means that probably most people spell it this way.

Doesn't stop with little things either---major towns and cities can be seen to be spelt in the old way, or the new way.

Its probably best not to get too tied up with spellings in Javanese, it is really a spoken language, and the speakers of it will often change spellings as well as pronunciations to suit themselves. The main thing is that the message be understood.

Mans

7th June 2007, 10:56 PM

Hello Pak Manshur,
Wasn't the old (Dutch) transliteration kinda outlawed in Indonesia after the independence?

Regards,
Kai
Hello Kai :) ,
Yes right, but sSome old spelling (like U = OE) still used outside the formal writting, especially to talking about the old, antique object or past period, etc... Alan had explained regaring EYD (Ejaan Yang Diperbarui / new spelling of grammar).

A. G. Maisey

8th June 2007, 12:21 AM

Pak Manshur,

Yes, it is true that here we communicate in different levels of English, and this can lead to some confusion.

Because of this I will make this post as simple as I am able.

Cultural differences can cause people from different cultures to identify discussion at different levels as a "dispute". Speaking for myself, I cannot find any evidence of any dispute in any recent posts to this discussion group. All I can identify is civil discussion.

Pak Manshur, you have posed this question:-

" Did this thread had demostrated the Tosan Aji from Pengging era which has luk like a snake (sarpa lumampah), the Daleman Sumenep keris which also has luk like a Pengging keris, and keris Segaluh which has good pamor and iron work... ? "

Objective evaluation will show that neither of these things have been demonstrated.

What has been demonstrated is this:-

Pengging
In the opinion of some people, the form of luk found in tosan aji which could perhaps be classified as tangguh Pengging , does have the form shown in the photos that were posted.
This is a qualified statement.
Because of the high level of disagreement as to the exact form of a Pengging keris it is not possible to make a definitive statement in respect of the luk form.

Segaluh
Photos of a keris identified by the owner as tangguh Segaluh have been shown. Based upon what can be seen in these photos, it is probable that the pamor execution is competent, as is the execution of the iron work.
This is a qualified statement.
We cannot be positive that the keris is tangguh Segaluh, and we cannot be positive as to the quality of the material and the way in which it has been worked, because we can only see a picture of the keris. To be positive about these things we need to handle the keris.
Even if we handle the keris, and we agree that it is tangguh Segaluh, and we do determine that quality of both pamor and iron work is superior, we can only affix that opinion to the keris being examined, we cannot extend that opinion to any other keris of tangguh Segaluh.

However, in respect of the keris shown as a possible Daleman Sumenep you made the following statement:-
And regaring my keris which has luk rengkol, this can be a Daleman Sumenep keris which estimated about 18th century.
This is a qualified statement.
By use of the the word "can", an element of doubt has been introduced. It "can" be Daleman Sumenep; it can also be something else.

This demonstrates exactly the point I have been trying to make:-

in discussion of tangguh carried out in writing, and using photographs, we cannot be definite in our opinions; our opinions must be qualified, in other words, the opinion when it is based on words or pictures must leave room for doubt.

When the keris is in one's possession, it would be permissable to state the tangguh, and anything else about the keris as one's opinion:- the statement is qualified by identifying the statement as opinion.

Opinion must not be presented as a statement of fact.

Pak Manshur, please do not regard what I have written as being in the nature of a dispute. The idea of "dispute" carries an element of heat, and an element of contention.There is no heat in my writing, and I am not in contention with you. I am discussing calmly and in a relaxed fashion a matter that must be clarified prior to any sensible discussion of tangguh being able to take place.

ganjawulung

8th June 2007, 03:05 AM

Dear Alan, Mans, and All,

This is my sharing of the pictures I posted, for the time being. I will complete my responsibility later, after finishing my other business. This assumption of tangguh Segaluh, based on opinion which I got from such source as: the late Mr Bambang Harsrinuksmo (once he saw this blade), and also in some occasion with Mr Haryono Guritno and even my other colleague of keris connoisseurs in Solo and Yogyakarta.

The bird eye view to recognize that the keris bears tangguh Segaluh, is the "protruding posture of the gandhik", sometimes extremely protruding. And Segaluh kerises is more protruding than any other styles of keris.

Also from bird eye view, if the segaluh keris with luks, never with "rengkol luk" (wavy luk). But with "luk kembo". Kembo means a kind of "fed up", or "lazy movement". Or say it, a snake in a lazy movement.

At this time being, I don't want to pose you the material argument. Otherwise you see it in your hand. Hopefully this 'first responsibility' will help your discussion. Believe me, I have no intention to cheat everybody. Or intent anyone to "buy this blade". Oh, no. This keris will be here for long, long, long time in the future..

Regards,
Ganjawulung (or some other spelling, Gonjawulung, or Gonjowulung. Whatever)

A. G. Maisey

8th June 2007, 03:31 AM

Ganja, what you have posted here is perfect for a post on tangguh.

You have effectively said:-

in the opinion of Bambang Harsinuksmo this keris is tangguh Segaluh.

I think you have also said:-

in my opinion this keris is tangguh Segaluh and I base this opinion on information obtained from Haryono Haryoguritno and other people with more knowledge of keris than I have.

Nobody could possibly object to this.

Incidentally, from what I can see in the pic, I'd call it Segaluh too, but if we are trying to create a format for future use, we must remain consistent.

A. G. Maisey

8th June 2007, 03:45 AM

I've thought long and hard about this, but I've finally decided to do it anyway.

I do not agree with the posting of photographs of keris which I identify as a part of my collection. As a general rule I will only post a photograph of something from my personal collection when I decide that I want to sell it.

The keris shown in this post is one from my personal collection, and I have no intention of offering it for sale. I have adjusted the photograph so that all you should be able to see is a silhouette of the keris.

This keris was given the tangguh of Pengging by two of the most experienced ahli keris I know, one of whom was also a very well known empu.

It also displays all the features of a Pengging keris as I have shown in my earlier post.

I am not claiming that it is Pengging, but the weight of opinion available to me seems to indicate that most experienced people would regard this keris as tangguh Pengging.

Compare this form with the form already claimed as representing Pengging. They are very dissimilar.

I do not claim that this keris is representative of Pengging, and the tombak already shown is not representative of Pengging.

What I do claim is that there can be significant disagreement as to exactly what Pengging tosan aji looks like.

This is the reason why it is always desireable to qualify opinions on tangguh.

cahaya

8th June 2007, 04:52 AM

....

The keris shown in this post is one from my personal collection, and I have no intention of offering it for sale. I have adjusted the photograph so that all you should be able to see is a silhouette of the keris.

Hai Mr Alan G M /Bapak Alan GM

can you take the close up of 'sor-soran' from your keris, so we can enjoy to see your keris collection too.

regards
cahaya

A. G. Maisey

8th June 2007, 05:03 AM

Sepang

8th June 2007, 07:41 AM

I'm sorry Cahaya, no.

As I have already stated, I do not agree with the practice of showing keris in a personal collection on a public website.

I have intentionally made this keris very dark so only the outline can be seen, not the keris itself.

I am not holding an exhibition of my collection, which would be something in conflict with my personal standards and system of values,I am only showing an outline for comparative purposes.
hi.
seems like a madiun keris. shown by the pucuk (tips), luk style and aslant of kembang kacang. the ganja not simetris. longer than bottom of the blade. I supposed that the gonjo was replaced or revisioned ?

sepang.

A. G. Maisey

8th June 2007, 08:58 AM

No, it does not bear the characteristics of a Madiun blade, the gonjo is original, however the buntut urang is eroded, as is the wadidang ; if the line of the gonjo and wadidang are extended to their original positions, this line will be seen to be quite long.It is not a high quality blade, but a very ordinary example, and in no respect could it be considered a work of art.The pesi is almost completely gone, and has been replaced with a metal cone held in place with jabung.

As I have already stated, in the opinion of two highly respected ahli keris, one of whom is an empu, now retired, this blade can be classified as Pengging.

It also bears the characteristics of a Pengging blade according to information gathered from Empu Suparman Supowijaya, and as confirmed in conversation with a number of other ahli keris, collectors, and dealers over a 20 year period.

I have provided this silhouette purely for comparative purposes:- a number opinions which must be respected classify this as Pengging, but it's form is nothing at all like the Pengging tosan aji that has already been shown.

I am positive that the attribution of Pengging given to the previously shown tosan aji has not been given lightly, and that a number of people would have this same opinion; in fact, I have another blade, a current era production, that is supposedly a copy of a Pengging blade, and the silhouette of this blade would agree with the silhouette of the previously shown tosan aji which has been identified as Pengging.

Then I have a third blade which is completely different from these other two that was given the tangguh of Pengging by two highly respected ahli keris from Jogjakarta.

The point I am trying to make is this:- Pengging is a very scarce tangguh, and there are clearly a number of opinions as to exactly what characteristics are possessed by a keris of tangguh Pengging.

We would not have the same problem with Mataram Sultan Agung, or with Surakarta, or with Segaluh, or with many other tangguhs, but Pengging is a very, very problematical tangguh.As a tangguh which attracts widely varying opinions it has been an excellent example to make my case that in discussion of tangguh, especially when photographs are being relied upon, all opinions must be qualified.

cahaya

8th June 2007, 10:11 AM

Hai all

No body perfect (100%) prof,doctor,scientist, could be wrong,
including in 'Keris world' --- Mpu can do something wrong to in Nangguh.

Raden Usman Djogja

8th June 2007, 10:50 AM

dear All Kerislovers,

If you have been in Merapi mountain, perhaps you would
realize, coincidently, there are 2 versions in any aspect there.
It is because Merapi mountain and surrounding area have important role in Javanese civilization.

So, if we talk about pengging? Which pengging? during Mataram Hindhu or Mataram Islam. If during Mataram Hindhu, so the prominent Empu is Mpu Ramadhi. If the scope of discussion is Mataram Islam, so different empus will be mentioned.

Perhaps, there are 2 kind of pengging which have obvious differentiation, yupe, because, they came from far different era. But, All are true penggings

Usman

A. G. Maisey

8th June 2007, 01:14 PM

Yes Cahaya, anybody can be wrong.

In fact everybody could be wrong.

The very fact that tangguh involves opinion , and not fact, means that any opinion can be given. It does not need to be right, or wrong, it only needs to be accepted. In order to have it accepted, it needs to be supported, but even if it is supported, it still does not mean that it right. For an opinion to be "right", it would first be necessary to quantify exactly what constitutes "right" in respect of any tangguh. The very nature of tangguh precludes such a factual approach. The best that can be hoped for is concensus, or perhaps only majority agreement.Certainly we can never hope for something as absolute as "right".

However, this is not about right and wrong.

It is about a system of classification which depends upon the comparison of certain physical characteristics in a keris, with accepted characteristics for a particular classification, or tangguh.

The person or persons carrying out the comparison forms an opinion as to whether or not the observed characteristics coincide with the accepted characteristics to a sufficient degree to assign a particular tangguh to a keris, thus placing it within that classification.

The problems arise when there is not universal agreement on exactly what the characteristics are for a particular classification, or tangguh.

We have just seen Sepang suggest that the silhouette which I posted is possibly Madiun. Sepang has been able to deduce this from only the silhouette. Just the outline of the blade.

I have already provided the information that the characteristics of the keris in the silhouette are the same as those listed in a previous post. Please read those characteristics listed in the previous post and consider for one moment if these are the accepted characteristics for a keris of tangguh Madiun.

This little exercise has provided a vivid example of just how silly the tangguh game can get.

It ought not to be silly. It is a serious branch of keris study, and is vital to an understanding of the Javanese keris, most particularly so in respect of value. If one fails to understand tangguh one can wind up losing big-time when buying.

We have already agreed that it is not possible to learn tangguh from pictures. It would seem that at this point nobody is prepared to assert that it is possible to learn tangguh from pictures.

I maintain that it is not possible to give other than a qualified opinion as to the tangguh of any keris from a picture.

I further suggest that where a picture of an example of any tangguh be given, that it be clearly stated that the claimed tangguh assigned to the keris is an opinion, either the opinion of the owner of the keris, or the opinion of a person or persons known to the owner.

If this practice is followed, it should lessen considerably the degree of misunderstanding in respect of tangguh , which currently appears to exist amongst those people who have not had the benefit of close and intense personal instruction in the practice of tangguh.

Opinions should not be presented as fact.

David

8th June 2007, 01:17 PM

No body perfect (100%) prof,doctor,scientist, could be wrong,
including in 'Keris world' --- Mpu can do something wrong to in Nangguh.

Certainly any individual, empu or not, can make a mistake. It should be noted, however, that Alan is not basing his opinion on the word of a single empu.

"As I have already stated, in the opinion of two highly respected ahli keris, one of whom is an empu, now retired, this blade can be classified as Pengging.

It also bears the characteristics of a Pengging blade according to information gathered from Empu Suparman Supowijaya, and as confirmed in conversation with a number of other ahli keris, collectors, and dealers over a 20 year period."

In fact, his opinion is based on information from 2 empus, another highly respected ahli keris and a number of other keris ahli, collectors and dealers. Still, this doesn't mean that all these people are correct, but i believe it would be unfair to imply that because any one individual can be wrong that it is as likely that this entire group of people are also wrong.
Consensus on tangguh is very often a difficult thing to reach. I believe that is part of Alan's point. :)

A. G. Maisey

8th June 2007, 01:23 PM

Thanks for clarifying what I wrote, David, however, I would like to clarify even further:- I have not yet given any opinion.

In fact, as far as tangguh Pengging is concerned I do not believe I could form an opinion for the simple reason that there is too much variation amongst knowledgeable people as to exactly what a Pengging keris looks like.

I feel that the best I could ever do with Pengging would to quote other people, without necessarily giving an opinion myself.

vogan

9th June 2007, 03:03 AM

Hello Fellow Forumites,
It is with some hesitation I post, being one of those referred to somewhere as “ghost readers” or something, in other words, those who read avidly but do not contribute to the discussion. I have a question about something Mr. A.G. Maisey wrote, though the question is not necessarily directed at him, as I am sure many other serious students of the Keris feel the same way. I seem to recall, in an earlier posting, mentioning of the difficulty publishers of a new book on the Keris encountered- when approaching top collectors, instead of receiving a happy consent to having their collection publicized- that is- photographed), they encountered a reluctance to share. Which brings me to my question as to the reasons why the owners of some beautiful cultural artifacts- read works of art, would say (to quote Mr. Maisey): “I am not holding an exhibition of my collection, which would be something in conflict with my personal standards and system of values, I am only showing an outline for comparative purposes.” If it is not too impertinent to ask :o , I would like to try and understand why some Keris owners feel a reluctance to publicize their personal holdings. Mind you, I am asking this from the vantage point of someone who is not very knowledgeable about the Keris, more like a brash American who cannot reconcile this reluctance to the tradition in this country, of the Carnegies and Mellons, who went full bore into the art market, amassing huge collections, partly out of vanity and because they could, but in a very real world sense, having built museums and created endowments to ensure that their holdings would remain on view to the public, they did so- so that the rest of us economically disadvantaged citizens, could enjoy the same access to the best artistic productions that the millionaires and elites enjoy. I’m sure we can all agree that many Keris are complete works of art, so what are the defensible reasons behind, not the emotional predilections for, the reluctance to share photographic evidence of these works of art with the hoi polloi? I hope you don’t think I am asking this because I am insensitive to the spiritual component of the Keris, only I would submit that the spiritual component is not unique to the Keris. I can’t imagine anyone would argue that the spiritual component of a Van Gogh painting has somehow been vitiated and trivialized by being put on public display. Indeed, I think the reverse would be true. How much more moving is it that millions of viewers now respond at a very deep level to paintings that but a handful of individuals gave a second thought to in the painter’s lifetime? When one talks of the energy or heat radiated by a great Keris, one might in the same breath liken that to the life force radiated by one of Van Gogh’s paintings. And who would subscribe to the notion that a Van Gogh ought to be wrapped in a velvet coverlet, stored in a cabinet and taken out for the sole pleasure of the single collector who, by virtue of luck, money or acquaintance, called it his own? Isn’t there a point when the aesthetic qualities of a Keris subsumes it’s owner’s “personal standards and systems of values” and it demands a wider audience? Like me :) - and other well intentioned but not so knowledgeable collectors, who do not enjoy similar access?

ganjawulung

9th June 2007, 09:11 AM

... This little exercise has provided a vivid example of just how silly the tangguh game can get.

It ought not to be silly. It is a serious branch of keris study, and is vital to an understanding of the Javanese keris, most particularly so in respect of value. If one fails to understand tangguh one can wind up losing big-time when buying.

We have already agreed that it is not possible to learn tangguh from pictures. It would seem that at this point nobody is prepared to assert that it is possible to learn tangguh from pictures.

I maintain that it is not possible to give other than a qualified opinion as to the tangguh of any keris from a picture.

I further suggest that where a picture of an example of any tangguh be given, that it be clearly stated that the claimed tangguh assigned to the keris is an opinion, either the opinion of the owner of the keris, or the opinion of a person or persons known to the owner.

If this practice is followed, it should lessen considerably the degree of misunderstanding in respect of tangguh , which currently appears to exist amongst those people who have not had the benefit of close and intense personal instruction in the practice of tangguh.

Opinions should not be presented as fact.

Yes Alan,
Tangguh game is a serious branch of keris study. (So, I don't agree with the joke you proposed before: joking about "tangguh is invented to give men something to talk about..") I know, it was a joke. But can be a destructive opinion too...

Why did I post pictures? Even books like Mr Tammens, Mr Guritno, or the book of respected David van Duuren, still posting pictures. Knowledge on keris is something "visual knowledge" too. It is easier to look the pictures (although someone can not feel the blade, or knowing the "ting-ting-an" the iron in absence of the keris), but still, makes people easier to understand. More accurate than without pictures. Still it has a positive side in showing pictures in a public website.

About "showing the private collection to public", in my opinion, it is not a general rule. But personal rule. I know, there is a good habitude in the past in Java of "sinengker" (keep it secret) tradition. And knowledge on keris in the past is a "kawruh sinengker" (not for public knowledge, but only for certain rank of people)...

But I learned also from the openess of Mr Sumodiningrat (in Jasper and Mas Pirngadie's book, 1912). That due to the benevolent of Mr Sumodiningrat, we could know now the kind of "extraordinary" dhapur such as "carang candala tinanding" or tjarang tjandala tinanding -- kind of karno tinanding with kembang kacang in both sides of the gandhik, but with luk like "megantoro" (combination of luk in the bottom, and straight in the point). Mr Sumodiningrat let his private collection to be published in public "for the shake of the knowledge of keris". It can be interpreted as "for the shake of the conservation of keris knowledge", Mr Sumodiningrat let his private collection to be seen by public. Also the private collection that had shown in Mr Tammens' book (De Kris).. I don't think it is a matter of "exhibitionist" attitude.

This is my "second responsibility", concerning Mr Alan's statement..

This is an information era. Why must we shut the keris world in a total secret, like in a dark age?

Once again, for the shake of the keris knowledge, I have no intention of destructing certain value, or personal value of the keris world. And please, this is not a personal conflict. But, discussion. We can take the positive thing out of this. With respect to Mr Alan Maisey, that I know, he has encourage the development of the Javanese keris in the last of 30 (?) years..

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung

9th June 2007, 11:08 AM

... Mr Sumodiningrat let his private collection to be published in public "for the shake of the knowledge of keris". It can be interpreted as "for the shake of the conservation of keris knowledge", Mr Sumodiningrat let his private collection to be seen by public. Also the private collection that had shown in Mr Tammens' book (De Kris).. I don't think it is a matter of "exhibitionist" attitude.

This is my "second responsibility", concerning Mr Alan's statement..

This is an information era. Why must we shut the keris world in a total secret, like in a dark age?

Once again, for the shake of the keris knowledge, I have no intention of destructing certain value, or personal value of the keris world....

Ganjawulung

It should be: "for the sake of" instead of "for the shake of....," I am very sorry for the elementary mistake I made...

Ganjawulung

David

9th June 2007, 03:27 PM

About "showing the private collection to public", in my opinion, it is not a general rule. But personal rule. I know, there is a good habitude in the past in Java of "sinengker" (keep it secret) tradition. And knowledge on keris in the past is a "kawruh sinengker" (not for public knowledge, but only for certain rank of people)...

But I learned also from the openess of Mr Sumodiningrat (in Jasper and Mas Pirngadie's book, 1912). That due to the benevolent of Mr Sumodiningrat, we could know now the kind of "extraordinary" dhapur such as "carang candala tinanding" or tjarang tjandala tinanding -- kind of karno tinanding with kembang kacang in both sides of the gandhik, but with luk like "megantoro" (combination of luk in the bottom, and straight in the point). Mr Sumodiningrat let his private collection to be published in public "for the shake of the knowledge of keris". It can be interpreted as "for the shake of the conservation of keris knowledge", Mr Sumodiningrat let his private collection to be seen by public. Also the private collection that had shown in Mr Tammens' book (De Kris).. I don't think it is a matter of "exhibitionist" attitude.

My dear Ganja, i see nowhere in Mr. Maisey's writing where he infers that there is any general rule about showing ones private collection. He simply doesn't agree with the practice and has made a personal choice not to do so. The word "exhibitionist" which you have put in quotes most often is seen in a negative light. Alan's statement was that he "is not holding and exhibition of my (his) collection", so your use of "exhibitionist" in quotations is somewhat misleading. It is not what Alan actually said and your changing of the word implies a different meaning then was originally intended. Again, i realize there are language barriers to overcome here, but i believe it is very important that we do not misrepresent another's comments in order to build our arguments. :)
I am personally basically of the same school of thought as Alan when it comes to the internet presentation of my personal keris collection. I follow this practice for many reasons, some the same and some perhaps different than Alan's, however, none of my personal reasons involve secrecy. I am all in favor of complete openness and exchange of information of keris knowledge. But i also insist on being able to choose who i show my keris to at any given time. I am afraid that the internet, does not afford me this protection. Also some of my keris serve deeply personal spiritual functions in my ritual life. These keris i do not usually show to anyone, even to friends in person. ;)
I am, however, eternally grateful that so many of you are willing to share your fabulous collections with us on this and other forums and galleries. I agree that viewing these keris is vitally important to the study and understanding of the keris. I consider your decisions to so publically share your collections with us both daring and brave. I would never personally call anyone so willing an "exhibitionist", nor suggest that they are in some way "wrong" for choosing to show their keris in this public forum. We need to all respect each other's personal choice in this matter. :)

Raden Usman Djogja

9th June 2007, 09:04 PM

...... I consider your decisions to so publically share your collections with us both daring and brave.....:)

David,

Referring to your statement, would you please to elaborate "both daring and brave"?

merci beaucoup,
Usman

David

10th June 2007, 02:17 AM

David,

Referring to your statement, would you please to elaborate "both daring and brave"?

merci beaucoup,
Usman

Hi Usman. Let me give just one example. The world wide web is indeed a wonderful thing. It has given us a whole new universe in which to communicate, research and do commerce. It is open to anyone who can access a computer, which is quite a hefty sum. It is free to all, indeed a wonderful thing. But anything i post here, or elsewhere falls completely out of my control. Any image i post here (or anywhere on the web) can be taken and used by anyone else for what ever purpose they desire. I have seen many keris for sale on eBay, for instance, which do not belong to the people pretending to be selling them. I do not wish any of my keris to every be counted amongst them. I consider those that risk this to be daring and brave. :)
But to go deeper into Vogan's questions, I am very open with friends, in my home, who show an interest in my collection and quite willing to show them many of my keris. I don't, BTW, keep most of them wrapped up in the cabinent. They are mostly on display around my home. I feel no great obligation to share them with the world at large. I'll tell you a secret... Not everyone is my friend. :D In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if i have made a few enemies along the way, some of whom even check in on this forum from time to time. I have no intention of every showing my collection to them. ;)
Finally, some of my keris i consider working ritual tools on my personal spiritual path. I would show these blades to an extemely select few.
My keris are not a Van Gogh painting. There were never intended to be "public art". They are, for me if you will, a part of my family and in some ways a part of my own psyche. While i would not disagree that there is a spiritual component to a Van Gogh painting i would put forth that it is not at all the same as that of a keris. They were not created with the same purpose in mind or with the same intent. You are basically comparing apples and motorcyles. ;) :D
I am not making any value judgements here, nor am i judging anyone else who may choose to show parts of their collection here. In fact, i encourage them to do so, so long as it is alright for them in their own personal approach to the keris. We all collect with different purposes in mind. I do not collect keris as a way of amassing wealth or for investment purposes as some do. I do not collect them solely because i have an interest in edged weapons in general as others do. I do not collect them because it is a part of my heritage and culture as still others do. I have been drawn to collect them for my own very specific and personal reasons. I am sure others on this forum feel the same as i. It is for each to choose whether or not they share their collections with an audience as large and as random as the world wide web. I consider it a great gift when people do, for those of us who can appreciate it, but it is certainly no ones obligation to ever make such a gift. :)

vogan

10th June 2007, 03:39 AM

Dear David,
Thank you for your response to Usman, though directed to him, I thought part may have addressed some of my questions in an oblique way. Let me confess that after posting I was consumed by a bit of anxiety that I might have offended some forumites by my use of the word “share” - in a context which suggested, in a provocative way, that those who choose not to let their prized Keris be undressed in front of the camera were not “sharing”- and in the politically correct environment in which most of us operate, that suggests selfishness. I am wrong to write it like that, and if I gave offense or caused a sensitive reader to wince- I apologize. I thank you, David, for your heartfelt response to the question of posting to the net- I see your point. Perhaps I need a lesson from Miss Manners about not inquiring too closely into the personal beliefs of others and obnoxiously demanding a justification for their private convictions- but if I gave offense, it was mostly out of ignorance. In my defense, I think as a novice, I have been frustrated by the dearth of Keris related publications in English. A lack I do not understand given how fascinating the whole topic is. I have Tammens (at an exorbitant price it seemed to me, Frey, van Duuren, Spirit of the Wood, Margaret Wiener, Keris/Drs. Hamzuri, Solyom, and the Ensiklopedi Keris- as a reader, I cannot tell how frustrating it is to look at pictures in the Ensiklopedi Keris- and see a header with a term I recognize, and not be able to ingest the substance of what follows. I suspect the same experience would be intensified were I to order Keris Jawa at $150.00 on Ebay- plus 72.00(!) for shipping). It is a feeling of starving for reference material in English that perhaps gave my comments about Keris photography a bit of unintended bite. There is one person I need not name, who is so generous of his time and knowledge in this field, that is, if I have given him offense, after his kindness to me, then I need to be kicked in my behind in a public manner. I guess as David says, there is no compelling aesthetic imperative which demands that a Keris lover post photos to the net- any more than he should be compelled to post photos of his wife and children to that electronic Wild West. Case closed(?), mea culpa :o

A. G. Maisey

10th June 2007, 06:46 AM

Pak Ganja, you have raised several matters in your recent posts, and I feel I do need to address these matters.In addition, questions have been raised, and explanations given in respect of the public display of private possessions; I wish to add my two-penneth to this matter also.

The relating of a joke about tangguh being invented to give men something to talk about was precisely that:- the recounting of something that had been said to me. In fact, it is a joke against myself, and was delivered as such when I first heard it---I probably spend as much time talking about tangguh as anybody I know. I disagree that such a remark can be destructive, because an understanding of tangguh is inseparable from appraisal of a keris, and appraisal is vital to the continued status of the keris in Jawa.Appraisal of a keris is intimately tied to the value of a keris; since one aspect of the keris is its function as a store of wealth,it is imperative that there be some basis upon which to establish a reference point for potential values.Tangguh gives us this reference point, and as such serves a useful financial and commercial function. Nobody ever discards a useful financial tool. I would suggest that we could make jokes about tangguh until the cows come home, and the only effect it would have would be to create greater confidence in those who have some understanding of how to apply it.There are a multitude of jokes about Wall Street and stockbrokers, but Wall Street is still there, as are the stockbrokers.

Pak Ganja, the overall tenor of your posts seems to have an apologetic or perhaps justificatory tone.
Please forgive me if I am incorrect in this understanding, however, if I am correct , I fail to understand just exactly why you felt that it was necessary to justify or apologise for any of your actions.

Since commencing to contribute to this discussion group you have displayed impeccably good manners, you have shown a number of interesting photographs of tosan aji, and you have commented appropriately.

Apologies? Justification? Why?

In my estimation, completely unnecessary.

I find it unsettling that you have felt the need for this, most especially so if anything I have written may have given rise to this feeling.

I will state again the purpose of my posts to this thread:- I would like to try to influence those people who have some understanding of tangguh to post their opinions in such a way that the opinions will be clearly understood as opinions by people who do not know very much about tangguh, keris, or the Javanese language.
Yes, I know exactly what the meaning of the word "tangguh" is, and I know the way tangguh opinions are accepted, rejected and discussed in a face to face situation, however, for somebody who has never been outside Broken Hill, or Memphis it can be extremely confusing to read what you and I know to be an opinion, presented as a statement of fact.

Let me state unequivocably:- in my writing there has been no explicit, nor implied criticism of any of your actions.It grieves me that you appear to consider that there may have been such criticism.

Now let me talk about the public exhibition of private possessions, keris, and other than keris.

When I was a child I was taught that it was the height of bad manners, and indeed demonstrated a lack of breeding to place one's private possessions on public display.
If one truly valued something, it was kept in private, in one's own home, and only select friends were permitted to view it.It was never---heaven forbid--- placed on public exhibition. This could open one to either criticism , or envy, neither of which could be considered desireable, and in some circumstances could be considered to be dangerous.
Later in life I acquired a teacher other than my parents and grandparents. This teacher was a man of a different culture and society to my own. He taught me a very great deal, amongst what he taught me was a system of values that I found to be remarkably similar to my grandparents values.One of the values he taught me was that any keris which I considered to be my own, and not a keris that was to be offered for sale, should be kept in a private part of my house, and preferably, shown to nobody except those in whom in had absolute trust.
These influences have formed the values that I apply in my everyday life, that is, the lessons of my parents, the lessons of my grandparents, and the lessons of my teacher.
The result is that I will never display publicly any of my personal possessions, most especially any keris which I regard as a part of my personal collection, until such time as I am ready to part with that item.

This could be regarded as a peculiarity by some people, and well it may be, but it is my peculiarity, it has stood me in good stead during my lifetime to date, and I have no intention of changing my attitudes.

Moreover, I have no intention, nor desire to impose my values upon the actions of other people.

At the present time we can see keris exhibitions right left and center, magazines with pinups of keris, many new publications with pictures of keris, thousands of pictures of keris available for public viewing on the web, we can see people posting pictures of keris which they value, here on this website. Clearly, I am the one out of step.

However, I cannot help but feel that each time a prized personal possession is viewed by a stranger, a little of its essence is lost.

How many of us would feel comfortable with our wives taking a role as a naked lady in a film?

How much of the essence of the lady would be lost by such action?

Strangely, I feel much the same about those keris which I regard as my own.

Those who wish to display their personal keris in public have my blessing and my encouragement. I will enjoy continuing to gaze upon those keris, much as I enjoy watching somebody else's naked wife in a movie.

But I will never display my own personal keris, that is, not until such time as I am ready to part company with that keris.

Incidentally, I also have no intention of initiating any divorces.

Having just delivered this sermon, I feel that I need to soften its force just a little.

For those of us who collect keris purely and simply for their art, and not for the emotional force which a keris may generate, then why not display it?

If you regard it purely as a work of art, then why should it not be displayed as any other work of art is displayed?

We all know that works of art are commercial instruments, and as such, good, solid exposure is a positive factor in maintenance of value, most especially so if positive comments can be extracted from critics. This is logical and commercially defensible display, not only that, but it is of value to the entire keris-art community as it helps foster interest, and maintain, or even raise, value. Look at what happens to the value of any art work, or collectable, once it has been published in a book.

So, to sum up:- if your keris is a work of art to you, display it please, and share its art with us, however, if it is something that you regard as a personal part of your life, think about what you are giving to strangers, and losing for yourself, before posting a picture of it to a website.

Raden Usman Djogja

10th June 2007, 10:00 AM

Hi Usman..... But anything i post here, or elsewhere falls completely out of my control. Any image i post here (or anywhere on the web) can be taken and used by anyone else for what ever purpose they desire. I have seen many keris for sale on eBay, for instance, which do not belong to the people pretending to be selling them. I do not wish any of my keris to every be counted amongst them. I consider those that risk this to be daring and brave. :)

David,

Thank you for explaining me "daring and brave" in term of uploading precious keris in internet. It aware me any risk in the new world that I know just a litle bit (www, intenet, ebay etc).

Alan and Ganja,

Seemingly, most of your explanations are in the level of "very high ilmu sinengker". I am sure that both of you have had intersive interaction to poeple considered as gurus in Jawanese (kejawen) society. I feel very lucky to hear your conversation through this thread.

Ganja,

your uploading of your collection in this thread is considered, as David said, daring and brave action. I deeply appreciate and enjoy to see those precious images. through your post, I can see there is a patrem which having "maternity" undesigned-pamor that, long time ago, I dedicated my time to find it with no result. Even I said to my self that kind of pamor was a myth. Since last week, I knew that was real.
Thank you for uploading it.

ganjawulung

11th June 2007, 05:07 AM

Dear Raden, David, Alan and All,
Thanks for encouraging me, although what I've done is quite controversial. And like you too, I have some kerises that I won't show them to anybody else except my wife. And those are not good-looking ones. Good-looking ones are just good to be looked.

In many exhibitions, keris exhibitions in Jakarta, were exhibited many much better kerises. Some of them, royal kerises which now are the property of rich collectors in Jakarta. Usually, they keep the valuable kerises in a certain bank like Bank Central Asia (BCA). And they exhibited the extraordinary kerises in glass-boxes, guarded by security and camera. And exhibited in a safe area such as, Menara BCA (BCA Towers), or elite hotels such as Dharmawangsa Hotel in Kebayoran Baru, Jakarta.

I would like to tell you, that the collection I've shown you in this web, are only the lesser quality of those one exhibited in Jakarta. That's why, I dare to show them to you...

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah

11th June 2007, 05:51 AM

Monday blues, nothing to see here... :D

A. G. Maisey

11th June 2007, 06:52 AM

Pak Ganja,I really do not think we can call your actions in posting photos of your collection controversial.

I made a remark which referred only to my own standards, not to anybody else's standards, and I provided an explanation of my reasons for those standards when I was asked.

No controversy. No shock-horror!

I choose not to display my personal possessions, including keris; you and other people choose to display your keris.

As I have already remarked, perhaps I am the one who is out of step.

We all bear the burden of our own actions.

I'm sure we will all be most happy to continue to look at whatever you, and others care to make available for our viewing, and I, for one thank you for your generosity.

drdavid

11th June 2007, 09:15 AM

It seems to me that this warung thrives because people share. Some share their keris (or photos at least), some share their knowledge, some share their experiences and some (like me) share their questions :) . Many share combinations of these things. As long as people share something it is a very successful coffee house (you bring the biscuits, I will bring the sugar and they can bring the coffee pot sort of thing). I am very grateful to everyone who shares something in this place
cheers
DrD

David

11th June 2007, 01:55 PM

Well then... I guess, I'm the ultimate fool to display all my pieces. :shrug:

Shahrial, i sincerely hope that you do not think that anyone on this forum considers you a "fool" for choosing to publicly display your collection. For me personally nothing could be further from the truth and i believe your contribution to this forum and the keris community at large is greatly appreciated. When i say "daring and brave" i mean just that and for me these are attributes to be proud of. Foolish never crossed my mind. :)
Now, if you choose to consider yourself an "exhibitionist" that's just fine. Calling another person an exibitionist is a different story as the way this word is used in the English language is most often with a derogatory tone. Yes, technically it does mean "one who exhibits", but usually it implies "one who shows off too much". ;)
As for "just keeping quiet and enjoy the show", please keep in mind that it is the practice of those that choose not to show their collections that has been called into question in this thread, not the other way around. We have been asked to explain and defend our position and somewhat put on the spot in the doing. This all began because Alan decided, against his better judgement, to show a profile of one of his personal blades for comparision sake, which lead to the question of why he wouldn't show us more. If anything this discussion has only succeded in discouraging people like Alan and myself from showing anything of our collections (even profiles or sheathed keris) because people will alway question why we won't show more and this same discussion will open up all over again with new people on the forum who missed it the first time. :(
To recap: No one considers anybody else here to be a "fool". Everyone one has different standards for their own person collections and we must respect all of them. No one considers their own personal standards to be superior to anybody else"s. Everyone is very appreciative of those that do choose to share their collections with us on the internet. Now let's move on. For me gentleman, this discussion is over and i strongly suggest that we continue with the original intent of this thread or end it. :)