A sociological and anthropological question

[Antonio Cejunior]

Greetings all,

I have been wanting to ask these apparently banale questions, but I am sure you will not take me wrongly, but will understand my own wish to understand others views.
Therefore please do take these questions as motivated by the acknowledgement that we all live in different circumstances (I subscribe to the notion that we are actual a circumstance by nature, cultural and social environment) which prompt us to have different reasons.

Question 1
What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy?

Question 2
Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason?
a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated?
b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction?

Question 3
In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village.
They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction.
This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino.
My question is divided into the following:

does the snake preside over its shape?
if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning?
what is the meaning of the word kris?
I thank you for your contribution to my enlightment, gentlemen.
Best regards.

[wolviex]

Antonio:
Let me answer to your first and second question. In my case, I began interest with weapons just when I started to work in Museum. Earlier I was focused on much different, other historical things. With knowledge there came interest. You know, when you are able to see more, to answer questions, solve someone's "science" problems - then you realize the knowledge is weapon itself, and it began to satisfy you.

Of course first of all I should be interest in my country's armament and history. It's closest to me, and when someone ask you about it, especially from aboard, then you realize how much there is still to discover, and that this is something you can really be proud. This proud and inclination to knowledge are something that still turn you on. But - very often this closest armament seems to be very ordinary to you. Then I like to take a look at something more exotic. I know very a little about Persian, Indian, or Indonesian weapons, but I like them very much, bacause there are different. This difference is a treasure to me, is something unknown, like from the other World - it's somehow a mistery - and it's attractive (in spite for someone's else is ordinary) :)

Just few words from a thought

Best regards

[Montino Bourbon]

I imagine that many men experienced playing with swords, wood or otherwise; I must have started at 6 years of age, I grew up in Italy and still remember wanting and then getting as a gift a 'corrazza', or armor, a play set of course, with a breasplate, helmet, and saber. In those days (1948) in Italy they were made of real metal, and the whole set was very beautiful.

Around age 14 I saw the movie "The 7 samurai" and was instantly taken by Japanese fencing. It wasn't until I was 18 years old and a senior in High school in New York City that I got a chance to study Kendo. I also got my first Japanese sword at that time, and practiced with it quite a lot.

A few years ago I became interested in kerises, and that was partly because of the artistic side and partly because of the 'magic' aspect of these fascinating weapons.

Perhaps you know that Africa is not the only place where blacksmiths are considered 'magical'; I have heard that in Europe, the blacksmith was the only person who, to swear an oath, was not compelled to do it on a bible; he could swear on his anvil. Even though the blacksmith had a touch of the 'diabolical' to be able to work iron, nobody accused him of witchcraft; no blacksmith, no tools, and no weapons! so the religious authorities turned a blind eye to blacksmiths, so it is said.

[Ann Feuerbach]

Hello, Long time since we wrote! I have not forgot about you!
Here's a different viewpoint: got started in blades because I had a boyfriend interested in knives and swords...basically boys like blades, I like boys, I learn about blades. (sorry any feminists out there, if there are any). I got the crucible steel remains as a "glass working conservation problem". I realized they were crucible steel and who could NOT be interested in studing crucible Damascus steel! What a amazing PhD research topic!
There is a whole newish academic field of ethnoarchaeometallurgy, (studying the social/cultual aspects of ancient metallurgy). I will be looking into this now for the book. I have some info, in Islamic writing they refere to male (hard) and female (soft) iron. You combine the two to make crucible steel. There are a few good movies on African metallurgy and beliefs.
Ann

[Antonio Cejunior]

Thank you Wolviex.
So we are colleagues. I was a Museum director for 20 years and kept a link by now being cultural consultant since 1998. :)

In today's globalized world of information it is interesting that we still consider exotic things those that do not pertain to our specific culture or to the collection of cultures we became familiar with, thus assimilated it.

Regards :)

[Antonio Cejunior]

Perhaps you know that Africa is not the only place where blacksmiths are considered 'magical'; I have heard that in Europe, the blacksmith was the only person who, to swear an oath, was not compelled to do it on a bible; he could swear on his anvil. Even though the blacksmith had a touch of the 'diabolical' to be able to work iron, nobody accused him of witchcraft; no blacksmith, no tools, and no weapons! so the religious authorities turned a blind eye to blacksmiths, so it is said.
Montino,
Wow, it's past midnight here and this Forum is really creative. :)
Thank you for your input.
Although I pursued Aikido for 30 years I tried to relate to it more in a spiritual way. You know, the mind, the clarscient body, the unification of body and mind.
But I do keep disobeying as disobedience is the first input to creativity.
I do not think that African smiths hold the exclusivity to it. The Chinese have their own story and in fact it is interesting to find the five elements of Chinese cosmogony in the making of a blade:
fire
air
water
metal
wood
It is also interesting to read the article Clarity and Virtue by Carlos Morais José about the sacrifice of Mo Ie's wife and the feminine and masculine metals.
It is available here http://www.arscives.com/gallery/en/fireandforge/default.htm
Best regards

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hello, Long time since we wrote! I have not forgot about you!
Here's a different viewpoint: got started in blades because I had a boyfriend interested in knives and swords...basically boys like blades, I like boys, I learn about blades. (sorry any feminists out there, if there are any). I got the crucible steel remains as a "glass working conservation problem". I realized they were crucible steel and who could NOT be interested in studing crucible Damascus steel! What a amazing PhD research topic!
There is a whole newish academic field of ethnoarchaeometallurgy, (studying the social/cultual aspects of ancient metallurgy). I will be looking into this now for the book. I have some info, in Islamic writing they refere to male (hard) and female (soft) iron. You combine the two to make crucible steel. There are a few good movies on African metallurgy and beliefs.
Ann
Hi Ann,

Nice to see you online. Feel free to email me.
I know I have your CD somewhere inside the original envelope, but the fact is that there are many things still to be unpacked as I moved in September or October and the pace of work has not let me get everything back to order.
Kindly remind me on the book's premises. You can email me from here :)
You had a boy friend but you ended up marrying crucibles huh? ;)
I'm presently researching the connection of Buddhism and Christianism. It is also a very interesting topic, but I understand that religions have no place here.
I'd really like to learn about your updates. Interesting that I just mentioned the Chinese concept of male and female irons.

There's a very interesting theory about Qin Shi Huang's successful unification of early China into the Qin empire, so to speak.

It may be a bit lengthy, so I will approach it when I'm rested.
A pleasure to see you :)

Good night everybody.

[Bill]

Hi Antonio, 1. Ethnography/Anthropology, from a very novice aspect without education in either. 2. Married to a Filipina. 3. Love to know the answer to this. The word Campilan is recorded by Pigafetta to describe a cutlass from Cebu, from a dialect that now has only a little in common with Cebuano; but it seems to have stuck as to describe a sword from Mindanao. Could "creese" have been simular, European translation from one dialect that became universal for Europeans to communicate with different groups. Personally I think the wavy blade developed from function rather than ritual or magical reasons. Here is some wild speculations. The cutting abilities of a wavy blade was good for removing heads. Perhaps the wavy blade was introduced from Indian or Arabs & adapted for function. Perhaps the Minangkabau had some role. Did they learn thier smith & mining from India or Sri Lanka? They appear to be one of the many "waves" that spread through region. As far as the "Moro" kris is concerned, they may have well had some influence as they had settlements in both Brunei & Celebes. Upon the arrival of the Europeans, Brunei seems to have been well armed, notable populations of both Chinese & Bugis & dominated most of the PI; at least untill the Spanish attacked them. Pure speculation but I believe the Bugis played a large roll with both the Keris & Kris but if they did, that role seems to have been lost. Ritual & supernatural aspects of the weapon seem more likely to have been processed in, following function, unpopular to say that, but my opinion.

[Rivkin]

Well, my reply will be probably the most psychotic one.

I've realised that I like swords during the weapons qualification. I was holding a gun and it was oily, clearly mass produced cheapy. Then flash and bang. And then you don't even see what you hit, because 200 yards is too far away. I like sniper rifles, and I enjoy seeing the results of my shot, but still it's not the same as swinging a custom made blade.

btw I don't know if I like swords. Sometimes it's just like the blade is talking to you, like you feel a connection, like it wants to _serve_.

Concerning the family connection, yes, I did play with my grandfather's trench knife. Not a lot, cause my older brother got a scar from it, so it's kind of became off-limits.

Since my mother's father was a megrelian Prince, I naturally always wanted a kindjal. So very soon I had a gazillion of them (since it was a good time to buy them). Recently I quietly sold nearly all of them to sponsor my other hobbies.
The problem is that kindjals I really, really like are extremely rare - I basically like mechanical damascus.

[Rick]

Hi Antonio , :)

Question 1
What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy?

Evolution from childhood .
My Father's navy sword always fascinated me . :)
My first sword was a toy Prince Valiant sword and shield set .
I think I spent most of my childhood playing 'war' with wooden swords or toy guns .

Question 2
Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason?
a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated?
b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction?

I 'blame' :D Nordhoff and Hall , Joseph Conrad , and my antecedents for my interest in ethnographic weapons ; one (Kenneth French Anderson) was a missionary who disappeared into Mindanao in 1898 ; the other was Harrison Smith a botanist who used to write for the National Geographic about S.E. Asia in the early 1900's . Harrison finally wound up in Tahiti where he became close friends with Nordhoff and Hall . He is remembered in Tahiti by a botanical garden named for him there .

(edit) I must add that by my first marriage edged weapons had faded ; they were re-awakened by my second Wife on my 50th birthday ! :D
She bought me a nice Del Tin two hander to get me back in touch with my inner child . :D
God bless her .

Question 3
In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village.
They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction.

> This is interesting as my Son is a glassblower by avocation and he is as Nature made him .

This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino.
My question is divided into the following:

does the snake preside over its shape?

>It is said that the keris or kris are naga-esque symbols , the straight blade representing the snake sleeping or inactive and the waved form represents the awakened or active naga .

if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning .

>unsure about this

what is the meaning of the word kris?

>other than the name given this cultural artifact I would not know .

[Tim Simmons]

It all started from a general interest in anthropology in my late teens.I wanted more a collection of "tribal art" but the real stuff is too expensive and for some reason weapons are cheaper and more common.Tim

[Yannis]

Antonio
I like your questions. They have some levels of reading them. Here are my answers.

1. I was rather old when I turned my interest to the ethno edged weapons. First I was fascinate with the craftsmanship, then with the history, but always it was a child in me, wanted to play! :p

2. I started collecting almost any ethnographic blade I could buy. When I realised that I couldn’t get not even one piece from any culture, I turned to my country and neighbour countries. At least I don’t give a damn about mass produced items.


3. The idea of magic powers of blacksmiths is very old. In Greek mythology, Hephaestus, the lame god of fire and anvil, protector of the craftsmen, one of the Olympians, once he made a magic throne and he entrapped Hera. Also Hephaestus manufactured amazing weapons like the thunderbolts for Zeus, the shield of Athena, the heart-piercing arrows of Eros and the invincible armour of Achilles. He was very ugly, but because of his abilities he married the goddess of beauty, Aphrodite! ;) Of course she was unfaithful. :rolleyes:

The snake is an ancient universal symbol. Look Hermes in the first picture and Hercules in the other. I stop here. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s faith.

I have no idea what “kris” means. :D

[VANDOO]

INTERESTING QUESTIONS
I WOULD HAVE TO ANSWER THE FIRST TWO QUESTIONS THE SAME. 1 &2 AS A CHILD I ALWAYS THOUGHT THE OLD PRIMATIVE TRIBAL WAYS OF DEPENDING ON YOUR WITS AND SKILLS WERE NEAT. I STILL FEEL THAT IN MANY WAYS THEY ARE MORE LOGICAL THAN TODAYS CIVILIZATION .
I ALWAYS WANTED TO BE THE NATIVE HUNTER / WARRIOR INSTEAD OF THE GREAT WHITE HUNTER OR COWBOY SO IN MY CHILDHOOD FANTASY BEING TARZAN OR A INDIAN BRAVE WAS ALWAYS MY PREFRENCE. THE MASTERY OF STALKING AND PRIMATIVE WEAPONS WAS ALWAYS OF GREAT INTREST AND I LATER DEVELOPED A INTREST IN MORE MODERN EDGED WEAPONS. TO ME THE WEAPONS ARE OF SECONDARY IMPORTANCE TO THE CULTURES WHO PRODUCED THEM AND THE WAYS IN WHICH THEY WERE USED.

QUESTIONS 3- THE TECKNIQUES USED IN MAKING WEAPONS WERE OFTEN ACCOMPANYED WITH RITUAL AND MAGIC, OR AT LEAST THAT WAS WHAT THOSE WHO WERE NOT INVOLVED IN MAKING THE WEAPONS BELIEVED. I THINK THESE OLD TRADITIONS AND BELIEFS WERE OFTEN ENCOURAGED BY THE CRAFTSMAN OR WITCHDOCTOR, A EARLY FORM OF MARKETING :D
TAILSMAN OR MAGICAL WRITINGS WERE OFTEN ADDED TO WEAPONS SOMETIMES WHEN MADE OR PERHAPS BY THE WARRIOR TO DENOTE SOME SPECIAL VICTORY OR HIS TRIBAL TOTUM OR PROTECTIVE DIETY.
SHAPES OF POWERFUL DIETYS, ELEMENTS OR SPIRITS WERE OFTEN USED IN MAKEING OR DECORATING WEAPONS. PERHAPS THE WAVEY BLADE SHAPE OF A KERIS MIGHT HAVE COME FROM A NAGA (SERPENT) OR A FLAME BOTH POWERFUL SYMBOLS.

[Conogre]

Like Barry, I was an early Edgar Rice Burroughs Tarzan fan, soon followed by Jon Carter of Mars, Conan and many others, all often thrown in together as "Swords and Sorcery"....it was through early Conan literature that I picked up on the fact that all of his fantastic peoples were actually drawn from history and pre-history.
By having some Native American ancestry, I was drawn to spears, shields, knives and axes first, then, later to swords with firearms being my least favorite weapons to this day.
As to snakes, it's only in western civilization that they have evil connotations, with most of the rest of the world revering them.
Even in art, weapons are often paramount in statuary and paintings, plus many bladed pieces are indeed works of art unto themselves.
Very well put questions, particualrly in regards to the "lowly blade".
Mike

[MABAGANI]

1.My early interest was based on an evoultion from childhood/adolescent growth, as an American born Filipino, I visited the Philippines for my first time at the age of eleven, I still have a tourist Moro weaponry plaque from that trip.
As a young adult and into my old age, lol... martial arts, collecting, ethnography and anthropology have been ongoing hobbies.

2.I have an affinity for Philippine weaponry, but I like to study different blades, arms and armor in general to learn how they were used in actual combat.

3.The mythical naga is a predominant motif in Southeast Asian culture, but evidentally within each specific group traditions vary. Some stories appear as the serpent in motion or stillness, as a practical combat weapon the straight Moro kris would dominate over the traditional wavy blade, imho...

[Antonio Cejunior]

Thank you all, gentlemen, for your most interesting contributions.
The Naga is indeed something that I did not want to throw in for my lack of knowledge into this particular issue. But the entire realm of swords when viewed under a socio-anthropological and ethnological perspective have a magical conotation.

One other question I deem important.

A. Do you feel that you are frowned upon by the non initiated sword average citizen, friend, family?

B. How do you feel about the social acceptance of swords?

frowned upon
lack of interest
fear or weariness?
C. Therefore, do you think that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto?

Thank you. It is great to be here. :)

[Antonio Cejunior]

3. The idea of magic powers of blacksmiths is very old. In Greek mythology, Hephaestus, the lame god of fire and anvil, protector of the craftsmen, one of the Olympians, once he made a magic throne and he entrapped Hera. Also Hephaestus manufactured amazing weapons like the thunderbolts for Zeus, the shield of Athena, the heart-piercing arrows of Eros and the invincible armour of Achilles. He was very ugly, but because of his abilities he married the goddess of beauty, Aphrodite! ;) Of course she was unfaithful. :rolleyes:

The snake is an ancient universal symbol. Look Hermes in the first picture and Hercules in the other. I stop here. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s faith.

I have no idea what “kris” means. :D
Thank you Yannis for your contribution. I fully agree that the serpent, naga, cobra, (it does not matter) has always been seen with both fear and awe.
In Christianity it embodies the temptation. Yet it also symbolizes medicine,
and is abundantly depicted in Egypt as in this fresco of Osiris
http://wwwstatic.kern.org/DHS/images/BillBaugher/osiris.jpg

while a serpent rises from the pharaoh's forehead

http://www.mfa.org/exhibitions/pharaohs/images/lgtutankhamen.jpg

Very interesting indeed.
I wish I could understand the word kris.
Thanks

[MABAGANI]

A. Do you feel that you are frowned upon by the non initiated sword average citizen, friend, family?

I've always been an oddball...amongst average citizens, friends and family, until I show that I've brought the artifacts into cultural and historical context through exhibits, educational conferences, ethnic presentations and martial arts, etc., guess it has to do with understanding.

B. How do you feel about the social acceptance of swords?

* frowned upon
* lack of interest
* fear or weariness?

I'd say there is combination of negativeness, lack of interest and fear again among the average non initiated citizen unless you can show some sort of educational benefit.

C. Therefore, do you think
that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto?

In my experience, learning the art of the sword brings one to a higher level, intellectually and creatively speaking...like the kris/naga form which deals subconsciously with the realms of wisdom, but then again I'm an oddball...lol

[Bill]

A. Wife hates them, has seen plenty of bolo wounds working the ER is southern Visayas, daughter slightly amused. B. All three. C. Yes

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Antonio,
First of all I would like to join the others in welcoming you to the forum!
It appears you are already well known to quite a few of our members and it is wonderful to have you join us.There is a continually expanding core of knowledge and expertise here that grows with discussions and sharing information, and especially the steady addition of new members that share in our passion to learn.

It is wonderful to see the questions you have asked here! How could anyone resist responding to trying to remember what compelled us into this very esoteric and thoroughly empassioned obsession.

I would have to join many of the others reaching back to being a young boy, in my case being fascinated by tales of pirates, swashbucklers and cavalry charges! However even before being aware of these, I was always obsessed with organizing and learning, mostly history. I think from the time I realized that the swords I saw in dictionaries seemed to all have certain differences, and of course seeing them in the movies, led me to trying to catalog the various forms I saw. As I grew older and more interested in military history, I found several books of British military regulation swords. I was fascinated with trying to match the ones in the books to some I had found in old shops. I remember finding an old sabre at a swap meet and matching it to a photo in the book..I was hooked!

I think that the interest in ethnographic weapons came much later, as the regulation patterns became mundane and the ethnographic specimens that always appeared mostly as trophies or souveniers of military campaigns seemed elusive and mysterious. One such item is a pata that I have owned for over 30 years and seems to have taunted me in that time to discover more about it :) As I studied more of military campaigns, the exotic and exciting places described became much more interesting than the typically bland military operations described and the tribal cultures became more and more fascinating and three dimensional. I learned that the ignorantly used term 'savages' was pitifully misplaced in most cases, and respresented simply gross misunderstanding of these cultures, and worse, the typically complete apathy often seen in trying to understand them.

I think what I have always found most frustrating is that in degree, the same apathy still resides often in the studies of anthropology, ethnography and related subjects when it comes to the study of weapons that are often virtually icons of the cultures studied. This is primarily of course related to not only the paranoia of political correctness, but the unfortunate increase in violence that has steadily permeated the world.
While many museums have put into storage valuable collections of weapons, and the topics of the importance of certain weapons culturally are often avoided in much published material, we here have sought to discover and preserve all we can of the histories of these weapons. We can only hope that better understanding of the importance of these weapons as important features of material culture rather than negative implements may bring them into the proper perspective.

I would leave the details of the more specific aspects of your questions on the keris and magical connotations imbued in these weapons to the outstanding scholars on that subject who reside here, and we have the best!!! However I did want to address the broader scope of your excellent questions and would like to thank you for placing them here. I know that it has not only reminded me of, but reinforced why I am here, and very proud to be in the distinguished company of the membership of this forum.

With very best regards,
Jim

[Montino Bourbon]

I always knew that music would be a great factor in my life; and after the army, I ended up studying for twelve years full time with the greatest exponent of Indian music, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. I play, teach, compose, and perform world music, with an emphasis on Indian classical and folk music and African drumming and singing.

I have pretty much all my life been thought of as 'different', to put it kindly; and I don't mind at all.

My family thinks of my passions as a little strange, but ''That's dad, and we like him that way; never a dull moment!" as one of my daughters says.

The views of the average citizen are not very important to me; I prefer the views of intelligent, well-educated, and tasteful people, which is why this forum interests me.

'Armi bianche', or 'white weapons' as blades and suchlike are called in Italy, have always interested me from the practical, artistic, and spiritual aspects.

I also enjoy going to 'Renaissance fairs', where everybody is armed and usually VERY polite, weapons are appreciated, and where music of the type that I play is respected and enjoyed. If that's a 'socio-cultural ghetto', so be it. I'd rather be there than at a tractor pull! (That's a uniquely American pastime involving large vehicles, lots of burning of gasoline, and not much fun for the likes of me.) Since I belong to a nation that at present is prosecuting a war, I hardly think that John Q Public has much to say if I choose to appreciate swords, especially while strongly condemning wholesale slaughter, which I find tasteless, costly, and ineffective in solving social problems. And, as I mentioned before, I'm a veteran of the U.S. regular army.

Whew! that was a good rant! Thank you for asking interesting questions.

[Andrew]

A very thought-provoking thread, Antonio. :)

Question 1
What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy?

I've always liked swords and other weapons. 20 years of martial arts training combined with having a policeman for a father (guns, knives and other weapons were common in my home growing up) further stimulated my interest.

As an adult, my undergraduate studies in sociology and anthropology meshed well with my martial arts related interests. The end result was an interest in collecting edged weapons.


Question 2
Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason?

a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated?
b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction?

I'm a Korean stylist, so I ended up looking elsewhere for edged weapon inspriration, as information on Korean weapons was, at the time (pre internet for me) nearly non-existant. Japanese sword information was, comparitavely, abundant, and I began collecting gunto. I prefer older, "real" pieces, and I could afford these on a student's budget.

A few years ago, I picked up my first dha from ebay. Upon reciept, I was immediately attracted to the feel and look of the weapon, found this site through Google, and have liquidated nearly everything else in my collection to make room for more dha. In my studies of dha, I've grown to love learning about the peoples and cultures that use(d) them, and their history.


Question 3
In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village.
They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction.
This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino.
My question is divided into the following:

does the snake preside over its shape?
if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning?
what is the meaning of the word kris?
I thank you for your contribution to my enlightment, gentlemen.
Best regards.

I'll defer to others more learned on this. :)

[Andrew]

A. Do you feel that you are frowned upon by the non initiated sword average citizen, friend, family?

My interest is usually met with bemusement. Followed by intense boredom when I attempt to answer a question. :rolleyes:

I can never shake the feeling that I'm percieved as a "sword nerd". :D


B. How do you feel about the social acceptance of swords?

frowned upon
lack of interest
fear or weariness?


All of the above, from various people, at various times. Unfortunately, many see swords as only deadly weapons or, worse, as toys and novelties. The deeper and more significant truths are there to be seen and experienced, but so many miss it.


C. Therefore, do you think that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto?

In a sense, yes, but certainly less so in a country like the US which prizes weapons and the right to own them as fundamental.

[Conogre]

In response to your second set of queries, I think A and C can be answered together, with B being nearly the same.

Swords in general, at least here in the US, are currently in a rather unique position with a fairly large portion of the blue collar class currently showing more interest in them than at any time since the birth of our nation, largely influenced by the motion picture industry to the point that they are being sold en masse on the Home Shopping Channel.
To a lesser degree, historical and ethnographic swords are also experiencing a heyday due to the popularity of Rennaissance Fairs and educational television among some of the more intellectual circles as well.

The first and third questions, however, are in direct conflict with the views just given, particularly among the female members of society, as well as the pseudo-intellectual and passafistic portions of society, where they are viewed strictly as weapons of war and symbols of barbarism.

I singled out an extremely large portion of the female gender for a reason that's probably unconscious to most, that being bladed weapons, knives in particular, and with swords often seen as nothing more than exagerated knives, are the weapon of choice for rapists, thus have become a symbol of violent masculine aggression that I feel actually transcends the logical mind and hits directly at the subconscious in American women.
As an ex-police officer I think I can state almost categorically that swords and knives are not only condemned but are actually abhorrent, thus despised, to a much larger percentage of the public than many can even begin to comprehend.
If one looks deeply into this, the amazing part is that only bladed weapons in sporting, hunting or military dress inspire this insidious dread, with cutlery often exempt, due to their familiarity with the steel in this incarnation.
Surprisingly, women often seem much more willing to allow a firearm into the home rather than a knife or a sword, even though fatalaties in children are almost insignificant compared to accidental shootings.
Mike

[Antonio Cejunior]

B.
I'd say there is combination of negativeness, lack of interest and fear again among the average non initiated citizen unless you can show some sort of educational benefit.

C. Therefore, do you think
that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto?

In my experience, learning the art of the sword brings one to a higher level, intellectually and creatively speaking...like the kris/naga form which deals subconsciously with the realms of wisdom, but then again I'm an oddball...lol
Thanks Mabagani,

Fear is one great weapon for ignorance. But then fear is part of the arsenal of the political correctedness of the world.

I do think that in my case, and thank you for sharing yours, I feel that it is most fortunate for me to live in Macau and in touch with the local Chinese community which is entirely different from Mainland China and from Hong Kong. Tolerance is so big that I have witnessed an American Hare-Krishna sect member walk in his safron robe and his almost entirely shaven head without anyone even staring.

Therefore, I have this benefit of not having to face a frown, but rather a curiosity for my interest in swords.

As you were referring to the naga, I was relating myself of the snake and the forbidden tree of Knowledge and what lies behind the real meaning of the old story.:)

Salamat poo, kaibigan

[Antonio Cejunior]

Thank you Bill :)

Hello Jim :)

Your more than kind words of welcome. Indeed I have the privilege and pleasure to know some of the gentlemen and Dr. Ann Feuerbach from other places but the privilege is all mine.

What is impressive in this Forum is the quality of the posts as it seems that when one moves to a more specific area, we find genuine interest rather than sometimes bored participation, which is not so constructive at all.

Thank you for your contribution. It is so diverse and also it has a thread between all those that posted their reasons to be attracted to swords that it is indeed something that is worth all the applause.

In fact, the acknowledgement of childhood or adolescence fantasies (in the good sense) is a very great statement, for I refuse to be old, in the sense that I refuse to let the child in me be supressed. It will always manifest itself at will for that gives me a sense of freedom.

I have noticed the word exotic without any bad intention. It is in fact the right word that still lacks a substitute in our globalized world.

I do believe that we can still nurture hope. I have visited some museums in the US last year and they displayed swords and armours. It is however in the area of anthropological and enthnographical studies that more could be done.

I am sure that soon there will be some very interesting contributions.

I agree with the terrible stigma of calling any people or ethno-nation as savages when generally the advance of so called civilization has led to the increased detachment of the self called civilized man from Nature.

Hence that I place great importance in the study of ancient history of religions as well as of shamanistic practices.

I do think we live in a ghetto, but I believe that, done in the correct way, the ghetto will get increasingly populated until it reverses.

Wars are unfortunately almost inherent to mankind... we fail to achieve the simplest thing in the world: to live in Peace.

I do look forward to learning from everyone.

Very best regards,
Antonio

[Antonio Cejunior]

A very thought-provoking thread, Antonio. :)

I've always liked swords and other weapons. 20 years of martial arts training combined with having a policeman for a father (guns, knives and other weapons were common in my home growing up) further stimulated my interest.
As an adult, my undergraduate studies in sociology and anthropology meshed well with my martial arts related interests. The end result was an interest in collecting edged weapons.

Hello Andrew :) ,
Most kind of you. What an excellent blend of interests. I'm glad you are well versed in anthropology and sociology, for evident reasons ;) .
We could never had guns here, in the past. Even now it is very difficult to obtain.


I'm a Korean stylist, so I ended up looking elsewhere for edged weapon inspriration, as information on Korean weapons was, at the time (pre internet for me) nearly non-existant. Japanese sword information was, comparitavely, abundant, and I began collecting gunto. I prefer older, "real" pieces, and I could afford these on a student's budget.

Are you talking Gumdo or Taekwondo? I am very curious :)
I may reserve a surprise for you in about a month's time ;)


A few years ago, I picked up my first dha from ebay. Upon reciept, I was immediately attracted to the feel and look of the weapon, found this site through Google, and have liquidated nearly everything else in my collection to make room for more dha. In my studies of dha, I've grown to love learning about the peoples and cultures that use(d) them, and their history.


I'll defer to others more learned on this. :)
I find the dha and the kris some of the most interesting swords, which carry a very genuine quality and flavour. Of course the creative side of me had to intervene in the dha I designed in a contemporary way that I hope one day to demonstrate how it was devised to be used.

[Antonio Cejunior]

My interest is usually met with bemusement. Followed by intense boredom when I attempt to answer a question. :rolleyes:
It happened to me with Portuguese friends, never with Chinese friends.
My design students were very curious in seeing some of my swords, as I used Martial Arts to teach design principles.

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/workshop/images/swords-and-students1_small.jpg


I can never shake the feeling that I'm percieved as a "sword nerd". :D

All of the above, from various people, at various times. Unfortunately, many see swords as only deadly weapons or, worse, as toys and novelties. The deeper and more significant truths are there to be seen and experienced, but so many miss it.

In a sense, yes, but certainly less so in a country like the US which prizes weapons and the right to own them as fundamental.
I quickly gave up trying to explain what a hamon was and just go about other areas of interests to our guests :)

In fact one of my early and most successful students collects cars and he just became pale the only time I unsheathed a sword to show him.
Please put it away, he said. It is indeed a very primitive (in the sense of unexplainable) fear that some have, which is definitely a barrier to the loss of prejudices.

Very best :)

Conogre,

I am in a busy period. Please kindly allow me a later reply to your most interesting reply full of field experience.
I will get back later :)

Kindest regards. :)

[Spunjer]

mr. cejunior,
it seems like you are well respected by some of the pillars of this forum. your questions are very thought provoking. if you may, i would like to answer those questions.

Question 1
What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy?

it was actually gradual. my fascination started while i was taking filipino martial arts. when i finally had the chance to go back to the philippines, i picked up some swords for souvenirs. didn't mess with it for awhile until last year, when i took it out of the closet and did some research on it. luckily, i found this website, and from then on, learned tons of info from some of the friendliest people i've met on and offline.

Question 2
Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason?
a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated?
b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction?

i would go with a.). i left philippines in my early teens an am now currently residing in the states. seeing these swords on my wall kinda give my home a piece of the old country while at the same time it gives my kids a daily reminder of where their other half came from.

Question 3
In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village.
They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction.
This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino.
My question is divided into the following:

* does the snake preside over its shape?
* if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning?
* what is the meaning of the word kris?

i'm really interested to know the answers to those questions as well. since the moro kris was derived from the neighboring countries' swords, i don't think any pilipino can answer that :D . the indonesians would prolly know, tho.

One other question I deem important.

A. Do you feel that you are frowned upon by the non initiated sword average citizen, friend, family?

it's funny you mentioned that. i live in the midwest, known as the bible belt. the second ammendment in this here part of the country might as well be the elevnth commandment. needless to say, a lot of my friends are gun collectors, so they don't have a word to say about my hobby. as a matter of fact, it's starting to peak their interest. the way i approach this, is i tried to tie up the history of these weapons to theirs, i.e. krag vs. kris, the .45, etc. they actually appreciate seeing the weapons "of the other side".

B. How do you feel about the social acceptance of swords?

* frowned upon
* lack of interest
* fear or weariness?

as a budding collector, i haven't heard any negative comments from people that knows about my hobby.

C. Therefore, do you think that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto?

in my current situation, i don't it is; on the other hand, martial arts in this here neck of the woods could be in that category...

once again, welcome and nice to meet you.

[Andrew]

Hello Andrew :) ,
Most kind of you. What an excellent blend of interests. I'm glad you are well versed in anthropology and sociology, for evident reasons ;) .
We could never had guns here, in the past. Even now it is very difficult to obtain.


Are you talking Gumdo or Taekwondo? I am very curious :)
I may reserve a surprise for you in about a month's time ;)


I find the dha and the kris some of the most interesting swords, which carry a very genuine quality and flavour. Of course the creative side of me had to intervene in the dha I designed in a contemporary way that I hope one day to demonstrate how it was devised to be used.


Hi Antonio:

My sociology and anthropology are a bit atrophied from lack of use: the law tends to do that. ;)

I study ITF Taekwon-do (under the late Gen. Choi, Hong Hi). However, I no longer compete or instruct, as other things have taken priority. Good Gum-do instructors are rare and hard to find, so I never had the opportunity to train.

I like the first dha you designed, and I'm eagerly anticipating what I suspect you have coming. :)

Best,
Andrew

[Antonio Cejunior]

I always knew that music would be a great factor in my life; and after the army, I ended up studying for twelve years full time with the greatest exponent of Indian music, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan. I play, teach, compose, and perform world music, with an emphasis on Indian classical and folk music and African drumming and singing.

I have pretty much all my life been thought of as 'different', to put it kindly; and I don't mind at all.

My family thinks of my passions as a little strange, but ''That's dad, and we like him that way; never a dull moment!" as one of my daughters says.

Greetings Montino,
My apologies, it seems I accidentally skipped your post. Thank you.
Well, probably I am very similar as considered a not-very-social person in the sense that I prefer to do the things I like, including work, though I do not read music, and I have always admired those who do.

My son plays djembe extremely well. He asked one for Christmas some three years ago, the year before he went to Portugal for University and started to play right after he unpacked the gift (we don't hang Christmas socks here)
He went out to play and was heard by a drums team who invited him to play with them in Hong Kong. Well, odd dad here was really proud :)


The views of the average citizen are not very important to me; I prefer the views of intelligent, well-educated, and tasteful people, which is why this forum interests me.

'Armi bianche', or 'white weapons' as blades and suchlike are called in Italy, have always interested me from the practical, artistic, and spiritual aspects.

Yes, it is called armas brancas (plural) in Portuguese. Are the spiritual aspects you referring to connected with their history, their symbology or other reasons?


I also enjoy going to 'Renaissance fairs', where everybody is armed and usually VERY polite, weapons are appreciated, and where music of the type that I play is respected and enjoyed. If that's a 'socio-cultural ghetto', so be it. I'd rather be there than at a tractor pull! (That's a uniquely American pastime involving large vehicles, lots of burning of gasoline, and not much fun for the likes of me.) Since I belong to a nation that at present is prosecuting a war, I hardly think that John Q Public has much to say if I choose to appreciate swords, especially while strongly condemning wholesale slaughter, which I find tasteless, costly, and ineffective in solving social problems. And, as I mentioned before, I'm a veteran of the U.S. regular army.

Whew! that was a good rant! Thank you for asking interesting questions.
Thank you for answering them. Culturally I must confess I wouldn't feel very good being "Ren dressed" but then I must acknowledge that the old world, and I am a mix of a westerner and an easterner living in the oldest western outpost in the Far East.
Glad to meet you. I'm a war veteran. 24 months in Angola, early 70's.
Let's cherish peace. :)

Best regards,
Antonio

[Antonio Cejunior]

In response to your second set of queries, I think A and C can be answered together, with B being nearly the same.

Swords in general, at least here in the US, are currently in a rather unique position with a fairly large portion of the blue collar class currently showing more interest in them than at any time since the birth of our nation, largely influenced by the motion picture industry to the point that they are being sold en masse on the Home Shopping Channel.
To a lesser degree, historical and ethnographic swords are also experiencing a heyday due to the popularity of Rennaissance Fairs and educational television among some of the more intellectual circles as well.
Apologies for the delayed reply :)
We are at least 12 hours apart.
I can imagine the power of movies and the Shopping Channels. I've been to the US three times and saw some very funny Shopping programmes. I'm not used to it. :) Different countries, different methods.


The first and third questions, however, are in direct conflict with the views just given, particularly among the female members of society, as well as the pseudo-intellectual and passafistic portions of society, where they are viewed strictly as weapons of war and symbols of barbarism.

I singled out an extremely large portion of the female gender for a reason that's probably unconscious to most, that being bladed weapons, knives in particular, and with swords often seen as nothing more than exagerated knives, are the weapon of choice for rapists, thus have become a symbol of violent masculine aggression that I feel actually transcends the logical mind and hits directly at the subconscious in American women.
As an ex-police officer I think I can state almost categorically that swords and knives are not only condemned but are actually abhorrent, thus despised, to a much larger percentage of the public than many can even begin to comprehend.
If one looks deeply into this, the amazing part is that only bladed weapons in sporting, hunting or military dress inspire this insidious dread, with cutlery often exempt, due to their familiarity with the steel in this incarnation.
Surprisingly, women often seem much more willing to allow a firearm into the home rather than a knife or a sword, even though fatalaties in children are almost insignificant compared to accidental shootings.
Mike
Your views are certainly most enlightened by field experience due to your profession. I think they are quite open, direct, no-frills and should be, IMHO viewed in a very down-to-earth way.
Rapists and the likes can surely use a knife for the threat in a close quarter is very big. Sick minds, however...
Thank you sir, for your generous contribution.

Best

[Antonio Cejunior]

mr. cejunior,
it seems like you are well respected by some of the pillars of this forum. your questions are very thought provoking. if you may, i would like to answer those questions.

Greetings Spunjer,

It is only their good and kind eyes, nothing more :) I am honored that you consider them the pillars of this forum. I have no hesitation in agreeing with you.


it was actually gradual. my fascination started while i was taking filipino martial arts. when i finally had the chance to go back to the philippines, i picked up some swords for souvenirs. didn't mess with it for awhile until last year, when i took it out of the closet and did some research on it. luckily, i found this website, and from then on, learned tons of info from some of the friendliest people i've met on and offline.

This is a great way to start, isn't it? We do have things in the closet of our minds that a a moment just come out. Then I will also agree with you that this is the friendliest and most polite forum I have been to.


i would go with a.). i left philippines in my early teens an am now currently residing in the states. seeing these swords on my wall kinda give my home a piece of the old country while at the same time it gives my kids a daily reminder of where their other half came from.
i'm really interested to know the answers to those questions as well. since the moro kris was derived from the neighboring countries' swords, i don't think any pilipino can answer that :D . the indonesians would prolly know, tho.

Thank you for sharing. In fact keeping a connection to our roots is such an important thing. I presume that we will hopefully have a contribution for the clarification of the meaning of Kris.


it's funny you mentioned that. i live in the midwest, known as the bible belt. the second ammendment in this here part of the country might as well be the elevnth commandment. needless to say, a lot of my friends are gun collectors, so they don't have a word to say about my hobby. as a matter of fact, it's starting to peak their interest. the way i approach this, is i tried to tie up the history of these weapons to theirs, i.e. krag vs. kris, the .45, etc. they actually appreciate seeing the weapons "of the other side".

as a budding collector, i haven't heard any negative comments from people that knows about my hobby.

in my current situation, i don't it is; on the other hand, martial arts in this here neck of the woods could be in that category...

once again, welcome and nice to meet you.
Thank you for the kind welcome. Nice to meet you too :)
I was wondering what is the meaning of bible belt ?
The sword is also more attractive to me, and for peaceful reasons as well.
I wonder if you succeeded in tying up your sword history with a colt or a smith and wesson. :)
Really curious. Thank you once again :)

[Antonio Cejunior]

Greetings again Andrew :)

Well, don't be modest. And I will never forget that your best weapon is your word. Remember? So I have high expectations :)

Ah, Taekwon-do. Very good indeed.
I have been introduced to Haedong Gum-do and it is impressive.
This video shows the ease of the Korean sword in cutting bamboo as if it were pool noodles.

I have uploaded the video for the earlier link was not working

Here is my smaller version of it. Impressive nonetheless, specially when you look at the diameter of the fallen bamboos.

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/hdgdvideo.htm

Note: It will take some time to download, but it is worth the wait, I can assure you.

In a month's time will be a review. That's all I can say for now. :D
I want to see for myself first. There's a Chinese saying that there is always a mountain higher than the highest mountain we know of.
Until my January visit to Korea, I wasn't aware of Haedong Gum-do.
Now I can say after seeing some practice, that it is a devastating sword set of forms.
Best :)

[RSWORD]

What a fabulous post. It is always interesting learning about our collecting peers from such a personal avenue as how we became hooked. I am a sword addict. I have been clean and sober for about 3 weeks now, however, their is a great show coming up in Baltimore and I am sure to fall off the wagon again. Why am I so hooked? Well, I have found education to be the culprit. Over the years as I have learned more and more about these objects, the deeper my appreciation and understanding have been and the more I desire. I can understand now why an appraiser on the antique road show can burst into tears upon examination of a rare and prized object. I would have thought them over sensitive just a few years back. In old swords, I find three wonderful aspects:
1) Their historical connetation. It is great having a tangible link to the past. To own an object that was carried at Waterloo, the Boxer Rebellion or any other famous battle or period elicits immediate flash backs to who might have carried this sword originally and what was their cause and how did they use this thing. I enjoy learning about the time period a sword is from and how it partook in that moment in history.

2) Their cultural connetation. I have learned more about other cultures through my collecting hobby than I ever would have a lifetime of living without them. Again, it is the educational process. The more you learn about a culture, the more you appreciate them. The more you learn about an object, the more you begin to appreciate it.

3) The craftmanship. These are objects of violence, war, freedom, self defense, costume and of course were crafted to function justly. Despite their lethality, they can be as delicately crafted as anything done by a jeweler or a lady embroiders. What a combination. To hold a sword that you know had its place in history, was made to be used, yet is as beautiful as any other art object, just leaves me flabbergasted.


Have I been outcast by society for being a collector of such objects. Not really. I know doctors that collect antique bedpans and I say "My God man, are you crazy!". Then, I pause, and think they might think the same about me. Therefore, certainly the bedpan collecting doctors don't look at me particularly crazily and I have yet to feel ostracized by anyone that I shared my collecting interests with.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Greetings RSWORD,

Thank you. But I was curious and hope these questions could help in building up a sociological profile of collectors.
Similar questions have been posted before elsewhere, but people could not keep a level of consistency in their replies. In a more mature forum like this great forum, it is easier to understand it.

Maybe Andrew could create a poll with these and other questions, so that we could all post and see in a synthetised way a view of the choices. I unfortunately am not yet fully familiar with all the features of this great forum.

I must state that my interests are not confined by swords, which allows me perhaps to promptly accept bedpans collecting :)

No no, I don't use them :D

Thank you for posting.

[John]

I study ITF Taekwon-do (under the late Gen. Choi, Hong Hi)....

Small world Andrew. I guess you'll have no problem recognising the younger Choi in this 1968 picture (which just happen to be stored in disk) taken when he was visiting Sabah and Chan-Yong Kim's school in Kota Kinabalu. Kim was at Choi's left and was my childhood MA teacher.

As to the meaning of the word Keris, I believe this was covered in renouned "What constitutes a good keris" thread in a post by Wong Desa which you may like to dig up.

"Huan Ying" to the forum Antonio.

[Antonio Cejunior]

"Huan Ying" to the forum Antonio.
Xié xié ni John :)

[Andrew]

Small world Andrew. I guess you'll have no problem recognising the younger Choi in this 1968 picture (which just happen to be stored in disk) taken when he was visiting Sabah and Chan-Yong Kim's school in Kota Kinabalu. Kim was at Choi's left and was my childhood MA teacher.



Hi John! Great picture, thanks.

I had the privilege of training with Gen. Choi several times here in the US. Unfortunately, those seminars were a bit bigger. ;)

The political in-fighting in the ITF leading up to and following the General's death has been unfortunate. It's one reason my training has waned in recent years.

[Andrew]

.

Maybe Andrew could create a poll with these and other questions, so that we could all post and see in a synthetised way a view of the choices. I unfortunately am not yet fully familiar with all the features of this great forum.
.


Antonio, I believe I can add a poll to this thread, but I haven't yet tried it.

Set forth the poll question and choices you'd like, and I'll give it a try. :)

[VANDOO]

MANY GROUPS WOULD CONSIDER PEOPLE WHO COLLECT EDGED WEAPONS AS KOOKS. THE ANTI WEAPON GROUPS WOULD PROBABLY CONSIDER ANY SUCH PEOPLE DANGEROUS FOR POSESSING OR TRAINING WITH ANY TYPE OF WEAPON. WEAPON COLLECTING OF ANY TYPE MAY BE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ACCORDING TO CERTIAN LIBRAL GROUPS, THERE SEEM TO BE GROUPS WHO PROTEST AGAINST EVERYTHING COLLECTING AND OTHERWISE.
FORTUNATELY THESE PEOPLE ARE SELDOM ENCOUNTERED AND USUALLY APPEAR ONLY IN THE MEDIA AND NOT TOO OFTEN THERE. I DON'T CONSIDER THESE FOLKS AS IMPORTANT AND ONE MANS KOOK IS ANOTHERS SCHOLAR, TEACHER AND CONNISUR ;) . TO EACH HIS OWN BE IT RENISANCE FAIR, STAR TRECK CONVENTION, OPERA OR THE FORUM GATHERING IN TIMONIUM (ALAS I CAN'T MAKE IT THIS YEAR :( )

I HAVE NEVER BEEN A CONFORMIST AND FOLLOW MY INTERESTS AS I PLEASE EVEN IF THEY ARE OUTSIDE OF WHAT A FELLOW FROM THE SOUTH WEST SHOULD. FOR EXAMPLE SPORTS, FISHING AND HUNTING, TOOLS, CARS, MACHINES AND GIRLS I AM INTERESTED IN ALL THESE THINGS ALSO BUT DON'T LIMIT MYSELF TO THEM. FRIENDS AND FAMILY HAVE SOMETIMES THOUGHT I SPEND TOO MUCH MONEY ON OFFBEAT THINGS LIKE FORIGN TRAVEL AND COLLECTING ODD THINGS. PERHAPS THEY ARE RIGHT BUT I VALUE THE EXPERIENCE OF VISITING COUNTRYS AND CULTURES DIFFERENT FROM MY OWN AND STUDYING THE OBJECTS AND CRITTERS THERE MORE THAN MERELY SAVEING A PILE OF MONEY. (I JUST WISH I HAD LOTS MORE MERE MONEY SO I COULD RAMBLE AND COLLECT MORE :D )
A EDGED WEAPON POINTED AT YOU IN A AGRESSIVE MANNER DOES INSTILL A DIFFERENT KIND OF FEAR THAN A GUN, SOMEHOW IT IS MORE PERSONEL.
I DON'T FEEL THAT EDGED WEAPONS ARE IN A CULTURAL GHETTO ALTHOUGH SOME DO HAVE A STIGMA ATTACHED TO THEM. THE MOVIES MADE A COMMON KNIFE HERE IN THE USA WHICH COULD BE FOUND IN MOST FISHING AND TOOL BOXES INTO A EVIL THING, I SPEAK OF THE SWITCH BLADE. AFTER THE MOVIES CAME OUT EVERYONE IN GANGS AND OTHERWISE WANTED TO CARRY ONE AND LAWS WERE PASSED BANNING THEM. I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHER CASES IN MOST COUNTRYS OVER THE WORLD AS THE USA IS A VERY YOUNG COUNTRY AND JUMPED FROM THE STONE AGE TO IRON, CANNONS AND GUNS IN FAIRLY RECENT TIMES.
SOME GOVERMENTS SEEM TO BE ASHAMED OF THEIR HISTORY AND WANT TO BURY IT AND JUST PLAY UP HOW MODERN THEY ARE AND PUT DOWN MANY GREAT ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF THEIR ANCESTORS BECAUSE THEY CONSIDER THEM PRIMATIVES. IN SUCH CASES MUSEUMS AND BOOKS ARE STRIPPED OF THEIR TREASURES AND THE CURRENT DOGMA TAKES ITS PLACE. THIS IS UNFORTUNATE AND IS ALSO ONE OF THE REASONS COLLECTIONS OF WEAPONS AND BIOLOGICAL SPECIMINS ARE REMOVED FROM DISPLAYS AND REPLACED WITH INTERPRETIVE EXHIBITS. THIS MAKES IT MORE POLITICALLY CORRECT AND ECOLOGICALLY SENSITIVE BUT MUCH OF THE WONDER OF THE WORLD AND ITS HISTORY AND CREATURES ARE LOST FROM VIEW. THE ENDLESS VARIETY IN THIS WORLD HAS ALWAYS BEEN OF GREAT INTREST AND I LIKE TO SEE , DO AND LEARN AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE WHICH MAKES ME A POOR SCHOLAR AS I COVER TOO MUCH AND DON'T FOCUS ON A SPECIALITY.
I TOOK TAIKWONDO FROM MASTER DON WON KANG WHO WAS A KOREAN EIGHTH DEGREE BLACK BELT AT THE TIME AND HE TAUGHT SWORD TECKNIQUES TO THE UPPER BELTS. THERE WAS NO CUTTING AND I DIDN'T ADVANCE FAR ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY SPAR BUT DID ENJOY IT AND PICKED UP A NICE JAPANESE SWORD TO PRACTICE WITH WHEN NOT USING A STICK. PARDON MY RAMBELINGS ITS LATE GOOD NIGHT

[John]

I presume that we will hopefully have a contribution for the clarification of the meaning of Kris.

This popular Good Keris thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000402.html) covers the definition of Keris as well as how the word Keris is derived. Thought I bring it up here for ease of reference.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Antonio,
I really think you have in effect, awakened a sleeping giant here! While I have long considered the anthropological and cultural aspects of the weapons and those who used them of paramount importance, I had honestly never thought of the sociological perspective of those who collect and study them! Brilliant thought! and even more, fascinating responses.
Another important thing I notice, and would like to thank you for, is that you very patiently and consistantly address everyone who responds to you directly and personally. I know that I appreciate that very much, as I am sure does everyone, and I think it is even more amazing considering the volume that has developed in this thread.

While I know I have already responded to the original questions, it was later asked if we thought that our interest in weapons led to certain disapproval by others. I know that I personally view these now static weapons as virtually living elements of history. I have already noted my passion for the study of history, but how can one describe the incredible excitement in viewing Lady Butler's painting of the Royal Scots Greys charge at Waterloo, while holding a heavy cavalry disc hilt that was there! How I took a photo of an inscription from a magnificent Islamic shamshir to a friend who was Muslim hoping for translation. He seemed stunned and his eyes welled with tears as he noted the inscription's inclusion of the name of the Prophet. He then most reverently kissed the photograph.
I think most of the people I have ever spoken to concerning my studies on edged weapons consider it interesting at first, even in degree fascinating. I always know if they ask questions to pursue the conversation further, most do.In any case I think that the fact that my interest clearly represents love of history rather than the emphasis on how the weapons were used tends to guage how others perceive my admittedly unusual avocation.

I work in an extremely large international airport (DFW) and interact with often thousands of people each day from all over the world. I enjoy talking with people of many cultures, faiths and groups and most enjoy the glee in thier eyes when I recognize where they are from and open discussion on thier country or culture, for example a Sikh from the Punjab, a Hindu from Madras, an Armenian, Persian, tribesmen from Guinea, Sudan, Eritrea. These people are incredibly proud of thier heritage, and I admire them. While our contact is of course brief, they love having been recognized, and they invariably will express gratitude and appreciation for the respect shown. On occasions where I have had time to speak with many of these people, there has been time for discussion that leads to weapons. The most productive I recall have been probably the African countries, for example a Fur gentleman from Darfur who openly discussed the kaskara, and once a group of men from several African countries who all anxiously and delightedly wanted to talk of the weapons of thier own countries. We talked, drew pictures and described and all were thrilled, especially me!! I took notes, and my studies reached new and more personal dimension.
I think the most important thing illustrated in these incidents is the importance of awareness, understanding and respect for the cultures and beliefs of others. If there were more of this in the world, there would be little need for the tragedy of war and fighting, and as you have emphasized, there might be peace at last.
How ironic is it that my deep respect and admiration for other cultures actually came from the study of weapons!!?


Another extremely important factor you have keyed upon is the more subjective topic of the magical,talismanic and superstitious/religious connotations that are actually quite critical in properly understanding most ethnographic weapons, with the keris mentioned appropiately in specific.

While I again would defer such complexities for more specifically defined
discussion, you had asked about the meaning of 'keris'. I have been hoping that some of our keris scholars might address this, in the meantime what I have discovered is that the dictionary entry suggests this is a Malay term for dagger, with no etymology noted. The word seems to have entered the English language c.1580 with Sir Francis Drake bringing several back to England. The keris was of course well known through trade by the Dutch, and appears in paintings, most notably Rembrandt's 'Samson' of 1628.
It seems that in a discussion with Ruel Macaraeg, who is a very astute linguist and often writes on these forums, he suggested (5/2000) that the term may come from the Khmer word 'kroeus'. While I cannot elaborate on this further, it seems an interesting clue for the derivation of the term.

In closing I would note the one comment that has been expressed to me countless times over the years has been, "if only these weapons could talk!!".
The truth is...they do!!! if we will just see what they are trying to tell us!!! :)

Very best regards,
Jim

[wolviex]

Antonio: I must say that in my work and interests around weapon hardly ever I met with fear, weariness or frown upon - with lack of interest, yes, but it's obvious for me that not everyone should be interest with that sort of things - I would die if someone forced me to fascinate with i.e. cosmetics :). It's the other story with me than with our forum friends. I don't collect weapons, so I don't have knives, sabres or anything that look sinisterly :) on the walls, in cabinets, etc. - so fear of other peaple is avoiding me :).

But there is another point of view which I would like to present - weapons in the eyes of Polish museum workers. Generally there is a feeling that all of this is just a piece of metal junk. For many people first art are paintings. Of course this conviction is passing quickly away when they are confront with beaty and art of this "junk". Beside this, other museum workers treating weapons as a kind of gadgets, not seriously enough. All of this is of course a consequence of lack of knowledge, I understand it, and I don't make a thing out of this.

Some of the museum ladies are sometimes trying to pretend "disgust" with weapons - "you can be hurt with this" - but we (we - because I'm not working alone) make a laugh at it. Sometimes we are joking, that we can make an uprising against some unpopular decisions of director, and we can equip all personel, roll out cannons, and fight for whats better for us :D.

Another detached remark: I also make a lessons for kids, teenagers, students. If the teacher is making appointement with me, there is sometimes an offer to separate girls and boys. Boys are going to see weapons, girls another exhibitions. It's of course superstition - I found, that during lessons often the girls getting more interested in topic than the boys :D.

I'm fascinating with this forum too, Antonio. The portion of knowledge I get here is bigger than our Polish book market can give you. I wanted put a smiley face here, but to be serious it isn't funny. In reality, I'm without chance to get a single book from aboard, I'm in need of. So the work is hard. The researches from time to time are in deadlock :(. Hope it's getting better.

Best regards!

[Yannis]

Maybe Andrew could create a poll with these and other questions, so that we could all post and see in a synthetised way a view of the choices.

A nice idea! Moderators of the forum could create polls on your questions or some other topics like:
Favorite sword – I wonder if kriss lovers are more than dha lovers in this forum.
Area of collection – Please let me alone to collect Balkan stuff.
Best material of the hilt – Walrus ivory or Rhino horn?
Next president – (ops! This is off topic :D ).

[Tim Simmons]

Well said Wolviex, a bit less phyco babble and 21century medievalism.I have practised european fencing for over a decade so I will admit martial arts can leed some people to selfdiscipline, but you can get that fixing your car.Violence studied in a monks costume is still violence,there is no gentlemanly way of killing,it is the same result from a common bandit.I hope I do not upset people too much.Tim

[Federico]

Wow, excellent discourse so far. It is great to see how so many of us have wound up here in this place. Figure its my turn to share, and so I will combine questions 1 and 2.

Even though I was raised in the US, I grew up with bolo around the house. Some of my fondest memories of family, was every spring the old worn out bolo would come to be used in the yard. When I was between 10-12 that bolo became mine, as my father felt that knife collecting was a good hobby for a child. However, being in MN bolo were hard to find, so my interest turned to more generic machine made knives, and the oggling of 440 stanless pieces at the mall. Though through it all, that rusty little bolo was still the best knife I had. Well, then came the teenage years, and the interest in edged weaponry shifted to guitars and girls ;) Stopped collecting, and all the blades were left to the dustbunnies in a chest. After a tumultuous period in life, and the advent of the internet the idea of getting back into a more healthful (comparatively) hobby came back. Getting back into collecting blades was more of a way to get back in touch with older childhood interests in the hopes of forgetting more adult vices. Anyways, with the net came oodles of exposure to possibilities of weapons purchases. Bolo were always of interest, but mainstream European and Japanese blades seemed to hold the fancy. But lo and behold, even modern traditional reproductions were well out of my price range. Then I started to hear more about the weapons of the Philippines, and that there were more than just bolo. So I started to stumble out onto Ebay, and pick up pieces here and there. However, these were mostly dissappointing tourist pieces, that were obviously not traditional. Then I found this forum, and the idea to start researching so that I wouldnt get ripped off was firmly implanted by Rick, Zel, and Jose. However, I had not yet fully embraced the idea of being a purely ethnographic collector. I had still hoped to find good modern reproductions. Anyways, the more I collected, the more I found that the cost of even the most high end ethno piece, was usually a fraction of what a mid-grade custom reproduction would cost. Also, the weapons that had always meant something to me (and the only ones I kept from my earlier knife collecting stage) were weapons that were made with an intention, good or bad. They were grounded in a living culture/tradition and made to work. They were not just some irrelevant piece of art, but had meaning that went beyond the aesthetic in their creation. Soon, I started to get an affinity for these pieces beyond material culture, as in research I began to delve more and more into the history/culture of the people who reproduced them Given the large amount of ethnographic pieces, I decided to limit my research to the Sandata. I figured Id rather be a specialist, than a jack of all trades that is master of none. Also, being a lonely pinoy stranded in Nordic country, it felt good to connect to a past cultural history, and to finally be proud of my ancestors after so many years of being told that Western Civilization was the epitome of progress. The more I researched and collected, the more I started to let go of an empirical mode of thought, and began to connect to pieces on a more gut/spiritual level (I normally do not discuss this aspect of my collecting habit/research). Particularly through the guidance of Mabagani, these pieces no longer became objects to hang on a wall, but once again gained life as tools to connect to the past through the living practice of Filipino Martial Arts. Anyways, I will admit this, I do like all ethnographic weaponry, and my collection is not limited to the Sandata. There are even a few dha in the mix :eek: However, not knowing enough about other ethnographic pieces, I am more wary about placing $$$ on something that I know little about. So if its not for cheap, itll have to wait till I win the lottery and can afford to buy from a reputable dealer.

As for question 3, I can only second the suggestion to go through past keris/kris threads. There are so many different theories, depending on the culture that produced the specific keris/kris, that it is really impossible to essentialize the matter into a simple answer, not to mention the fact that I am already rambling like crazy.

Question A, B, C.

Unfortunately my experience of with others views of my collection have tended to be on the negative. I have had some quite dramatic reactions from people (including my own sister) who feel that any weapon (be it a gun, knife, or sword) is inherently evil, and that my ownership and interest of such a weapon by means of association means that somehow I am to be viewed as a inherently violent and evil person. If I am lucky, I will occaisionally get the laughing ambivilence, but this has not been the majority of my experiences with the non-initiated. Anyways, usually I can calm things down by bringing up that this collection is not a means for me to express some macho sexist tendency, but rather an attempt to preserve and appreciate a dying cultural legacy that has far deeper meanings than the mere material nature of its presentation.

Anyways, as for whether swords inhabit a cultural-ghetto, I would say in larger Western high culture society, yes. In this realm, along with any other weaponry, they represent a past that is desired to be forgotten. A relic of days when institutional safety was not as strong, and further still they inspire a deeper sub-conscious realization that those days were not too far gone in the past, they reveal the thinness of the fabric that we call civilization. In more popular culture, swords are lost in the media jungle of Nascar, WWE wrestling, and American Idol.

[Jim McDougall]

Wolviex,
I think that many of the books we use as references are becoming even more difficult to obtain, however I think the others would join with me in offering to assisting you directly with whatever we can. Just contact us and let us know what you need. If you need to check a reference out of a particular resource, often we can help. As far as the books themselves..well when they can be found they are incredibly expensive usually in the older ones. Slowly new ones are being published, in fact a landmark book on Indian weapons, "Hindu Arms and Ritual" has just been released by Dr. Robert Elgood. This book can only be described as magnificent and essential to the library of any student of arms and armour as well as those studying anthropology, religions, and art.

With regard to your observations on museum perspective there in Poland, I think this is something that seems to pervade museums worldwide these days unfortunately in many cases. I would be careful to note that this obviously excludes many larger museums who make efforts to maintain scholarly study and representations of arms and armour study, the premier example of which is the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York.

I would like to add that there have been many outstanding Polish scholars and authors with valuable contributions to the study of arms and armour, whose books would seem more available to you there, while extremely difficult for us to obtain here in the U.S.
To name just a few:

"Szabla Zotnierza Polskiego XIX i XX wiek"
Aleksander Czerwinski and Leslaw Dudek, Warsaw, 1988

"Polish Arms, Side Arms" by Andrzej Nadolski, Warsaw, 1974

"Piec Wiekow Szabli Polskiej" by Wlodzimierz Kwasniewicz, Warsaw, 1993

"Ciecia Prawdziwa Szabla" by Wojciech Zablocki, Warsaw, 1989

and most valuable and of broader scope,
"Bron W Dawnej Polsce", by Dr. Zdzislaw Zygulski Jr. Warsaw, 1975

Professor Zygulski is as you know a brilliant scholar and has been director of the Czartoryskich collection for many years. His contributions to the incorporation of the study of arms and armour and of art are well known, especially his work on the "Polish Rider" by Rembrandt and his unforgettable work on the 'winged hussars' of Poland. A number of years ago he was very kind and helpful in assisting me with a query concerning elements of motif in certain Polish weapons and armour. That a scholar of his station took the time to assist with what must have seemed elementary is something I certainly have never forgotten.

I just wanted to express gratitude to the many Polish scholars who have been so helpful to us here in the west, and that we would welcome the opportunity to return the favor. :)

With all best regards,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

Orez Perski. 2000. Museum Zamkowe W Malborku. ISBN 83-86206-31-4 In Polish and English very good book.Tim

[wolviex]

Jim - thank you so far,. I don't want to make a Polish topic from this Antonio's thread, and about my problems either. So I'll contact you via private message.

Best regards! :)

[Spunjer]

I was wondering what is the meaning of bible belt ?
antonio,
bible belt is the term given to the midwest america and the south, where it is very conservative compared to the left and right coasts...

[Antonio Cejunior]

antonio,
bible belt is the term given to the midwest america and the south, where it is very conservative compared to the left and right coasts...
I see, thank you Spunjer :)

Gentlemen,

Pardon me for not being able to reply, but I am presently really busy.
I make it a point to reply to everyone,
Thank you for your understanding,
Best,
Antonio

[Antonio Cejunior]

This popular Good Keris thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000402.html) covers the definition of Keris as well as how the word Keris is derived. Thought I bring it up here for ease of reference.
John,
Thank you very much for posting the link here. Most invaluable. :)

Vandoo, Jim, Federico and all other gentlemen,
Please forgive me for not being able to reply one by one to all your great posts.
I have been extremely busy and am having a bit of a rest now :o

Andrew,

Thank you for your assistance with the poll. My idea about the poll is to see very simple answers to questions so that they might eventually be incorporated in another area of the Forum as Socio Anthropological information.

Here they:

1. What is your ancestral background?

2. Where do you live?

3. At what age did you beging to feel attracted by swords?
- adolescence
- 20's
- 30's
-Later

4. Do you feel segregated as a sword collector?
Yes No

5. Has your profession played a role in being a collector?

6. Reason you collect Ethnographical Weapons
- reminds me of my roots
- interested in specific cultures
- because of its beautiful per se

7. What is your definition of Ethnografical Weapons?
Please reply in a very direct and concise way.

8. State which do you consider Ethnographical Weapons?

9. Why?
Please reply in a very direct and concise way.

10. Which countries swords do you collect mostly?

11. Are you open to other types?

I hope this can cover most of the issues. Feel free to add more questions.
Thank you Andrew and all :)

[wolviex]

Antonio - as far as I know, forum poll option is possible to apply when you've got few answers to choose, like A, B, C, and then system is able to count answers and give you a percent result - but let's wait what Andrew can do, maybe I'm wrong.

Questions are ok, but let me have one remark - maybe I'm the exception, but I can't answer to a few questions like: "Has your profession played a role in being a collector?" or "Which countries swords do you collect mostly?", while I'm no collector just a museum worker :( - maybe I should answer as an Institution :)

Best regards!

[Antonio Cejunior]

Wolviex,

Thank you for your kind information. I am not sure how to move around and appreciate Andrew's help and adaptation whenever necessary.

Indeed, I think it is fine to answer as an Institution. Thank you. :)
Best regards.

[tom hyle]

John,
Thank you very much for posting the link here. Most invaluable. :)




I think I'll just try to jump in on these questions. Nice answers by everyone; very in depth; I doubt I shall go so deeply, but then I do tend to ramble.....


1. What is your ancestral background?

Hillbilly. Iroquois, Cherokee, German, Welsh, some Swedish I think, some Scottish, no doubt, possibly some Irish. Good ol' mutt, I guess. I generally refer to my racial background as American Indian, due, I supose, to my disgust with the dominant culture. Raised Roman Catholic; the animist truth was always clear to me; eventually I began to recognize the single identity of the Old Religion.....Oops; rambling; told ya.

2. Where do you live?
Short answer Houston. Slightly longer; I seem nomadic, though it doesn't please me. Insight into Tom for ya answer; in a world of idjits.

3. At what age did you beging to feel attracted by swords?
- adolescence
- 20's
- 30's
-Later

Earlier. Early childhood. Probably involved with my father's horrific tales of violence (kids love that stuff) and the old, mostly adventurous books I began reading at age 5 or 6. I was always an artist, early primarily a visual artist, and one of my fascinations was with the structure of what I was drawing. This didn't lead to me focussing in on swords, but it is my earliest memory of taking an interest in how they are made. Oh! And the Bible, or as I sometimes call it "Tales of Theft and Violence"; really bloody stuff that stirs the imagination of young boys.
Also, and I think appropriately, weapons are very much associated in my mind with the concepts of manhood, indeed of human-ness, and of freedom.
I think the assumption it might begin in adolescence may be going in with the popular conception of swords/blades as penis symbols. I tend to think this a pretty bogus concept, sensical mostly to people who are not truly familiar with blades (amazingly common among the industrial culture, where things are cut by specialized professionals). I won't go into extolling my penis, but I'll tell you this; it isn't much like a sword; almost the opposite.

4. Do you feel segregated as a sword collector?
Yes No
I feel so segregated from the humans in general and the Americans in particular that it's very hard for me to tell. Male humans usually have a passing and surface interest in the matter. Females usually make some nervous comment question about serial killery/rapism; playing it into a joke seems to calm them; nervousness, defensiveness, or thoughtfulness to make them more nervous. Silly humans; this sort of conception of me leaps to their minds, anyway, as I am weird and not pretty weird, but ugly weird; hairy and fat and muscular, often looking and smelling much like a wild animal, inarticulate, with a seething blend of reticence and warlike angy boldness (I try to suppress that, but it is my true nature, I suppose; I have never been much to put up with abuse, at least once I recognize it as such....and the humans are always abusing....it's that quietude that transforms explosively. People don't know what it is, but I supose they know they don't want to be around it.), and a near total lack of the largely standardized manipulativeneness the N Americans call "social skills". We're hearing a lot about autism lately, and I'm pretty sure if I was a kid now they'd say I has Asberger's syndrome, and probably try to drug me up on some of their experimental drugs :rolleyes:
On the other hand, once I was trying to sell some swords at an open market and I had them spread out, and this guy came by; I think he was a South American man, though I can't recall any particular detail about him that made me think that, and he had a young child with him, walking, and they were looking at the goods in the market. He got about 1/2 way past me and then his eyes went wide with horror at what he was looking at. He snatched up the child and hurried away, casting me a look blended of hate and fear. Once under the same circumstance a N American youth tried wordlessly to threaten me with one of my own swords.....I sneered, firmed my feet (I was sitting) and held my quartering staff.
For my own part, I find I am more disturbed and bemused by my urge to collect (started with tree-shed bird's nests, snailshells, and rocks) than by what I collect. Whenever a woman nervously asks me why I collect swords I try to answer the collecting question instead; I think it's more meaningful.
Gotta agree that there is a weird blend of fear with over-casualness. Ordinary modernes will up and touch a blade by its edge! Too many movies; too little experience of real blades that will actually cut. I liked the Zefferelli (spelling?) Hamlet, but there he is, holding his sword by the blade in a fit of grief; blood would be running......


5. Has your profession played a role in being a collector?

I've worked primarily as a cook and a woodworker; both jobs with a lot of cutting and cutlery.

6. Reason you collect Ethnographical Weapons
- reminds me of my roots
- interested in specific cultures
- because of its beautiful per se

Again, a miss. I came to collect antique and foreign edged weapons because I couldn't afford new high quality ones, and I found that if I looked around I could get old ones really cheaply from people who considered them junk. My interest in swords began as and remains an interest in them as a living art form, as deadly and relevant weapons, and (did I mention I am an animist?) as living persons.

7. What is your definition of Ethnografical Weapons?
Please reply in a very direct and concise way.

I don't know that there is a definition. Any product of a culture is ethnological. (we had a weird etymological discussion of this on the old forum, in, of all places, "supreme katanas" I think). I certainly see a marked difference between modern industrial culture ruled by what I've come to call "The Over-culture"; the academic/government/military/industrial pseudo tribe that rules the Earth, and traditional culture and between their products. I guess handmade and consciously traditional vs machine made and industrially designed.

8. State which do you consider Ethnographical Weapons?


9. Why?
Please reply in a very direct and concise way.

10. Which countries swords do you collect mostly? I have no preferrence, really, but if one country has predominated amongst those I both like and can afford I suppose it would be either S Phillipines or W Europe. Lately I've been picking up some nice Mexican stuff.

11. Are you open to other types?
Yep

I hope this can cover most of the issues. Feel free to add more questions.
Thank you Andrew and all :)

The best hilt material is probably straight grain slow-grown climax forest beech heartwood (though not the actual, very heart; this may confuse; the heart is the actual core; the innermost 4-6 inches, and tends to be more cracky/less stable; the heartwood is the fully hardened structural wood, all the way out to the sapwood, which is still being used to move fluid), or possibly cattle/buffaloe horn. Nonfibrous hilt materials are usually a bad choice, because they break/shatter with random directionality, and so cannot be bound against it with ferules as can horn, wood, etc. A partial exception for solid metals if they are hard enough to suport the stress; aluminum is good; brass tends to be too heavy if solid; zinc potmetal is as bad as plastic, if you ask me. Metal also has the problem of getting too hot/too cold.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Thanks Tom :)

I posted the earlier row of questions for Andrew to kindly make a poll of it.
But your answer is invaluable.
Thank you so much.