Arsenic or realgar for Keris etching?

[Tatyana Dianova]

I want to etch a couple of Keris. I can buy in eBay at Minerals:
- sterling arsenic (a dark grey mineral)
- or realgar (arsenic+sulphur, white cristal)
What is better for etching?

[David]

Hi Tatyana. I use lab grade arsenic trioxide, but i know that it isn't an easy substance to come by. The nice thing about it though is that it is always the same so you can get more controlled results. I have never used realgar, but i have heard from members here who have that you want the pink stuff. But the white stuff might work just as well. :shrug:
I don't know anything at all about "sterling arsenic" so you might want to stay away from it. :)

[Marcokeris]

Is starling arsenic :metallic arsenic?

[Tatyana Dianova]

It seems to be a clean arsenic.

[David]

It seems to be a clean arsenic.

I don't understand what you mean by "clean". :shrug:

[Marcokeris]

Tatyana is this mineral heavy or light? Hard or soft?
If it is heavy and hard, pay attention don't put fire near the mineral: his vapour is dangerous (poison: smell like garlic)

[Tatyana Dianova]

I don't have bought any of these minerals yet, so I can't tell. I just have seen some so called "gediegen arsen", what translates like "sterling arsenic" on German eBay. On pictures it lookes like dark grey mineral, maybe similar to earth. Sometimes it have inclusions of silver in it. It is a local mineral from Ore Mountains in Saxony. Alas, I haven't saved any pictures, and at the moment there is none of it offered...

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Tatyana, if you are using realgar, always use the red or deep oranges with some yellow ones. The less the yellow, the better. the deeper the red and orange, the better. Purple is the best, but it's hard to find. The good one should shows crystalline structure, and easy to pulverize using the pestle and mortar. As Marcokeris already warn, it would quickly transfered to a poisonous arsenic gas if you burn it. Never try the white or gray, or pure yellow. Pulverize and mix it with the lime juice, and let it rest for at least a night before use. During use, the the solution's color may change to a brownish color. The older the solution, the deeper the color. Do not throw away the old solution. It's a 'babon warangan', or 'mother solution'. If you use the brushing technique, you should mix the babon with some new one. Immersion technique use a deep brown, almost black solution. Finding the right solution is part of the art. Keep away the solution from oil, copper alloy and soap. Just put some rusty nail and let it rest for a night to make an old solution from the new one, quickly.

Happy marangi, and beware of it's health hazard.

[cannext]

"gediegen arsen" is german for metalic arsenic ,gediegen means pure some metals are found this way for instance gold silver or copper.
Hope this helps ,enjoy F.

[ganjawulung]

Did you use the "sterling arsenic" to stain your Bali blade?

GANJAWULUNG

[Tatyana Dianova]

I still have the "sterling arsenic" hidden in the dark corner, but I haven't tried it yet. Really I do not have a good working place to use it safely... The Bali blade was stained on Bali: Mr. Michael Wahle from Bali-Artshop in Germany has brought it on Bali and gave to (-I believe-) Mr. Ketut Karang for staining and sheath making...

[semar]

hello Tatyana

when you buy warangan its have to look like the warangan one the picteurs
you can buy many warangan but you can not use every warangan to clean your keris some even don`t work

regards semar

[A. G. Maisey]

Over more than 30 years I have purchased and used traditional warangan in Solo.

It has never looked like any of the examples I've seen photos of here.

The warangan that has been available in Solo over the last couple of years has been very inconsistent in producing satisfactory results.

Since the early 1960's, and predating my use of Javanese warangan I have used laboratory grade arsenic tri-oxide. This has invariably produced very satisfactory and very consistent results.

Here are examples of these results:-

[semar]

this warangan that i show you
comes from a friend of my from surabaya
mij friend cleaning the keris for a living
and i think whem you cleaning the keris everyday
you know wich warangan works the best

regards semar

[A. G. Maisey]

Semar, I have not purchased warangan in Surabaya.

Please re-read what I wrote so that you will understand clearly what I am saying.

I will repeat my message in the most simple terms possible in order that there can be no misunderstanding:-

1)--- the warangan that I have purchased in Solo, and have used, over a 30 year period does not look like the photos of warangan shown in this thread.

2)--- the warangan currently available in Solo is unreliable in producing satisfactory results.

3)--- since at least 1962 I have stained keris with laboratory quality arsenic trioxide; the results I am able to obtain with this are consistent, and in most cases I get a superior result to that which I am accustomed to seeing from professional blade stainers in Indonesia.

One thing I did not say in my previous post is that I pay to have approximately 100 blades stained during each 12 month period; I normally have to return half of these blades to the tukang because they are unsatisfactory; of the half I return I normally have to return about 15 or 20 blades a second time; of those blades I usually have five or so blades to stain myself. I use laboratory quality arsenic trioxide on these failed blades, and my staining is always successful.

[semar]

oke I understand sorry bud my engels is not verry good and thats te reson
that I somtimes not understand whats say in the mail

regards semar

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Semar, it can be difficult to understand clearly if you are struggling with a language other than your own.

I was not casting any aspersions upon your comments, simply recounting my own experience.

[ganjawulung]

I still have the "sterling arsenic" hidden in the dark corner, but I haven't tried it yet. Really I do not have a good working place to use it safely... The Bali blade was stained on Bali: Mr. Michael Wahle from Bali-Artshop in Germany has brought it on Bali and gave to (-I believe-) Mr. Ketut Karang for staining and sheath making...
Staining is such an "art". I don't even stain my kerises by myself, although I have "warangan jadi" (ready to use warangan) and I can stain kerises by myself. You need at least all day long, non-stop free time to stain your kerises. Not including cleaning first your blade from rust with coconut's water for couple of days, and then your blades need to be processed with 'mutih' -- brushed and brushed, again and again with 'jeruk nipis' (lime juice) mixed with cream-soap (sorry, I have difficulty in explaining the process). Anyway, staining is not that simple -- just soak the blade into the ready-to-use-warangan... Usually I clean my self the keris blades, and then 'mutih' the kerises. But then, I gave the further process of 'mewarangi' to the specialist.

There are a couple of 'ahli warangan' or keris staining specialists in Jakarta, and of course in Solo, Yogyakarta, Surabaya, Madura, Bali...

this warangan that i show you
comes from a friend of my from surabaya
mij friend cleaning the keris for a living
and i think whem you cleaning the keris everyday
you know wich warangan works the best

Yes, usually I bought warangan (more precise, 'chinese' warangan) from Surabayanese friends too. In Solo, people used to buy at a special shop, traditional herb shop such as Akar Sari in Coyudan, not far from Karaton Solo but not as good quality as 'chinese' warangan from Surabaya and Jakarta. I have example of two kinds of warangan. People said, the 'yellowish' one is better...

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

The biggest supplier of warangan in Solo is a "Shop With No Name" --- but everybody knows it as "Toko Vera", in Pasar Gede , one street west of the market. This shop wholesales to other shops in Solo and also sells retail.

Unless somebody is buying outside of Solo and bringing the stuff into Solo themselves, they will be getting their supplies from Toko Vera.

For a long, long time Toko Vera had drums of warangan that was very good stuff, and back a few years, it was not really all that expensive, however, the old stuff eventually ran out, and the only new stuff they could get was from India. As I have already remarked, this new stuff is not very reliable --- sometimes you can get an acceptable job from it, but other times you cannot --- and it is not cheap.

[kulbuntet]

I have heard that now days in Jaw also Selenium is used. Because of shortage/price of arsenic. Anny one ever hear about it? If it works must be one of it oxides. Haven't figured it out witch one. Sugestions, please?

And about the arsenic. Like Alan said, Di Arsenic tri Oxide (As2O3) works best, since it is the most agresive...lethal too. 100mg in your body will kill you, when taken oraly, dont know about in to blood stream.. probaly much lower.

than you have Realgar, red to orange AsS, easly bought in mineral shops. The mor red the beter, is what people say.. i got a big chump here of maybe 300Gr red to orange colour.. it works. Just when you make the bath ready.. pulverise the realgar realy good, i use a farmacy mortar to grind. A big hammer does the job too :D. and piut the stuff in lime juice. I never put it on a filter.. let the fiber rot.. good for the acid value (PH). En my best tip.. let it stand for atleast a year... other wise it wont work properly... limjuce i white/yellowisch... i should become dark red to black sollution... you will know when you see it when its ready.

The pinkisch mineral, i have seen it. But never used it my self.. And dont know if its a mixture of compounds, or a seperate mineral, cant find anny info about it.

And finaly orpigment a other arsenic mineral yellow colour! As2S3. Never used it my self.. but hear diffent story's about it. The person that learned me.. never want to have it.. since it's not working...other people say otherwise..

reagrds Michel

Ps sterling arsenic is metal arsenic, of non use for us! just looks pretty for mineral collectors. But it wont react. You can make trioxide of it.. but it dangerous.. so i wont tell you more about this

[Tatyana Dianova]

Very interesting information indeed... I think I have to sell the piece of 'sterling arsenic' since I am not a mineral collector :D

[David]

Well, as i read through this post i notice a bit of conflicting information here. I am not going to get into a this is "wrong" and this is "right" argument because firstly that's subjective (some people really get results in ways that others don't i suppose) and secondly it's just plain counter-productive. But i will give my own advice and reasoning for how i do it and why i don't follow some of this other advice.
Lab grade arsenic tri-oxide does work best and it is the only method that will provide consistent results. This is because a gram of As2O3 is always the same exact strength each and every time, without any added impurities that might exist in all the various forms of realgar. The only disadvantage that i can see is that it is not always easy to obtain, but i managed to get a hold of some after only a few well placed phone calls, so don't give up if you want to try this. And yes, Michel, it would be in it's most potent form and therefore more deadly. My advice would be, don't stick it in you mouth and definitely don't shoot it in your veins and chances are good that you will be just fine. ;)
Actually, i would have far more fear about grinding it up in a mortar & pestle, or even worse smashing it with a hammer :eek: with pieces flying everywhere as this is more likely to make particles airborne and therefore breathable. If you are grinding this stuff up i would strongly recommend that you wear a surgical mask.
Michel, if you really need to let your solution rest for an entire year before using i see this as another advantage to using As2O3. I usually let mine settle over night and it's good to go. And i am not sure that i can see how letting the pulp rot adds to your acid PH or if that is even necessary if it does.
For those who what to use realgar i wish we could come to some agreement as to what color is best, because we are all over the map here. I have heard that purple is best, red is best, pink is best, orange is best and yellow is best. Well, only one can be best. If i were planning on using the mineral form i would be very confused right now. :shrug: :)

[Royston]

Gents

For my sins I was once an aspiring Geologist. It was a long time ago but one thing about minerals sticks clearly in my mind. They differ in composition and colour a lot. If the relative amounts of arsenic to trace elements is important for the etch to work there is no saying that this will always be the same colour. Often other trace elements will alter the colour, sometimes a lot.
The result of this is that a good "etching " realgar may be red in one mine but may be yellow in another.

Regards
Roy

[David]

Gents

For my sins I was once an aspiring Geologist. It was a long time ago but one thing about minerals sticks clearly in my mind. They differ in composition and colour a lot. If the relative amounts of arsenic to trace elements is important for the etch to work there is no saying that this will always be the same colour. Often other trace elements will alter the colour, sometimes a lot.
The result of this is that a good "etching " realgar may be red in one mine but may be yellow in another.

Regards
Roy
Thanks for the geological perspective Roy. Makes sense. Also makes realgar even less predictable if you can't really count on the color as a guide.
:shrug:

[Tatyana Dianova]

Maybe it is a stupid question, but I would like to know if (staining or etching) of wootz blades with arsenic may bring a good result? Is there anybody who has tried it?

[David]

Maybe it is a stupid question, but I would like to know if (staining or etching) of wootz blades with arsenic may bring a good result? Is there anybody who has tried it?
Admittedly i don't know much about wootz, but what causes the contrast in keris blades is usually the inclusion of nickel in the pamor material which doesn't blacken like the iron does. I don't think you will get that effect with wootz. :shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

This is a recounting of something I have seen, it is most definitely not any sort of recommendation for anybody to practice.

Before I met Pak Parman ( Empu Suparman) I had already been staining blades by use of several different methods, at that time I found the most effective to be the brushing method. Pak Parman introduced me to a different method that produces by far the best results of any method I have tried. I will not give any advice here, nor in writing, on how to use this method because it is has far greater potential for danger than any other method.

However --- when I was taught this method by Pak Parman, it started from buying the warangan and grinding it up to a powder.

This grinding was done in the mortar and pestle that his wife used in the kitchen to prepare food.

Admitted, Pak Parman placed a piece of plastic bag over the grinding surfaces of both mortar and pestle, but this plastic soon broke through, and the reason he used the plastic was not to prevent contamination of the kitchen utensils, but to prevent loss of too much of the warangan --- Javanese mortars and pestles are made from a very grainy volcanic rock that has a pock marked surface which retains some of whatever is ground in it.

Pak Parman lived into his mid-seventies, and his passing was due not to the effects of arsenic, but due to the effects of an even more deadly poison:- TOBACCO.

Arsenic has two faces.

Yes, we know it as a poison, but it has been used as a medicine since ancient times.

http://molinterv.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/5/2/60

This article is worth the read.

The length of time that warangan or arsenic needs to be allowed to stand after mixing up the suspension depends upon the method used.

For both my preferred method, and for the brushing method, ten or fifteen minutes is usually sufficient, just enough time to allow the floating droplets of powder to sink to the bottom of the fluid.

If using the soak method it is necessary to allow the powder to sit for longer in the fluid.

[kulbuntet]

Alan,

This method your dont wanna get in to is called Nyek?

[A. G. Maisey]

Never heard it called that, but given the meaning of nyek, that would fit.

[ganjawulung]

This method your dont wanna get in to is called Nyek?
Dear Kulbuntet,
If you stain your keris like the way you paint something with warangan -- with for instance, paint brush -- then this method is called "nyek" (the "e" spelled as vocal "e" in "church", and "k" consonant as spelled as ending consonant "g"). This method of "nyek" is very popular among keris traditionalist (old people in the past) in Yogyakarta area, for staining old kerises. The result is not contrast if you compare with "soaking method"...

The other method, called as "koloh" method. Soaking the blade in "blandongan" (special place for staining kerises). Koloh method vastly used among keris people in Solo, East Java, Madura, Bali. More complicated than "nyek" method, because you must master each character of the warangan liquid. "Warangan galak" (quick reacting warangan liquid) is not good for blades with "pamor sanak" (?). But is good for blades with "pamor byor" (contrast pamor, with pamor material such as nickel -- bright type of pamor). For blades with "pamor sanak" then it is better if you use "warangan nom" (very soft warangan with very slow reacting of blackening the blade). Some staining specialist in Solo, sometimes push the blade with inner part of fingers (this practice of course, is dangerous...) to push the sanak pamor...

If you choose the "nyek" method, then you simply crushed the warangan, mixed it with "air jeruk nipis" (squeezed lime liquid), then brushed the blade with warangan. Of course, you must first "mutih" (brushed the blade with lime liquid and cream soap many time, then brush and brush with lime liquid until "white" as if it is painted with "metalic paint"...)

The "koloh" method is not that simple. The first absolute thing to do is "mutih" your blade perfectly, then soak your blade in "blandongan" with warangan fluid... It will waste your time, and you will fail, if you don't do the "mutih" process perfectly

GANJAWULUNG

[David]

If you choose the "nyek" method, then you simply crushed the warangan, mixed it with "air jeruk nipis" (squeezed lime liquid), then brushed the blade with warangan. Of course, you must first "mutih" (brushed the blade with lime liquid and cream soap many time, then brush and brush with lime liquid until "white" as if it is painted with "metalic paint"...)
Ganja, i am by no means a expert at staining blades. I have had fairly satisfactory results though. I am confused by what you call "mutih", firstly because it is the first i have heard of it and secondly because i do not know what you mean by "cream soap". I do, of course, get my blades "white" before i begin the staining processes. I am always interested in anything that can improve my results so maybe you could explain "mutih" further. :)

[ganjawulung]

I am confused by what you call "mutih", firstly because it is the first i have heard of it and secondly because i do not know what you mean by "cream soap". I do, of course, get my blades "white" before i begin the staining processes. I am always interested in anything that can improve my results so maybe you could explain "mutih" further. :)
Please don't be confused with word of "mutih" in "fasting tradition" -- "pasa mutih" is only eating white rise -- without side-disk. But "mutih keris blade" is whitening-the-blade process (?). Of course, I don't create myself this mewarangi term. I think, every keris staining specialist in Solo, they know what "mutih bilah keris" (to make keris blade 'white', before staining process) is.

I am not a staining expert, though I can stain keris. But have no time to stain kerises by myself due to my limited free time. Usually I clean all of my keris blade, soak them in "blandongan" with coconut's water for couple of days. After one or two days, then I brush each blade with very soft tooth-brush, or other kind of soft brush with "air jeruk nipis" (squeezed lime juice) mixed with (Indonesian) cream-detergent (for instance, "Wing" cream detergent, or B 29) -- in the old days usually we used "buah kelerak" (certain fruit, traditionally used for cleaning batik clothes in Java -- some day I will photo this special fruit)... Just cleaning all the dirt, oil, and also rust from the blades, before the "mutih" the blade process.

To do the "mutih" the blade job, usually I mixed squeezed lime juice with cream detergent (this is of course, a contemporary way in Solo, Jogya, Jakarta and else where in Jawa) then brush and brush the blade again. Sometimes, I used the very soft ashes -- mixed with squeezed lime juice/cream detergent. Please, not to strong brushes with ashes... just to remove oil residue of the blade. The finishing process of "mutih" the keris blade is brush and brush the blade with squeezed lime juice only, until become "white".

To do the best "koloh" method staining job, you need to do the "mutih" process perfectly. Usually, I do this process by myself, then I give the further process of staining to some staining specialist -- in Jakarta, or in Yogyakarta and Solo.

Keris staining specialist in Solo, usually they have their formula of warangan fluid. Mixing warangan fluid, is also not as that simple. It needs month of making "warangan jadi" (ready to use warangan) -- in at least two different characteristic (sorry for explaining in English badly, David). Strong mixture -- in our colloquial slang, we call it "warangan galak" and the soft one as "warangan nom".

To make "warangan nom" become "warangan galak", then just put more crushed warangan, and also more lime-juice. The process sometimes take quite a long time...

Once again, I apologize, I can not explain to you clearly...

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

I also am no expert on the staining of keris, but I have been staining keris since I was about 17 or 18, and I am now 68. That's a pretty long time. I taught myself to stain keris by reading descriptions in books written during colonial times by British people who had visited, or who were resident in Malaya. Before I ever went to Indonesia I knew three different methods, and of these I had found that the most effective did not involve arsenic at all, but used sulphur, salt and rice water.

The first lessons I had on staining keris in Jogja came from an old gentleman who was introduced to me as "Romo Murdo". From him I learnt a very quick and easy way to bring a blade back to an acceptable condition with very little effort. This method is the basis for the brushing method that I recommend to people who want to know how to stain a keris. However, my recommendations incorporate things that I did not learn in Jogja.

After this Jogja lesson I then learnt other ways of using warangan and of staining keris; some of these ways were variations of the Romo Murdo method, others were considerably different, such as the soak method.I learnt these varying ways over a very long period and from a number of people in Solo and Malang.Often my lessons came in disjointed sections, and the people I learnt from were totally unaware that they were teaching me.

Pak Parman taught me the very best method. It is produces excellent results, is virtually fail proof, but has high potential for danger.

In all methods, one thing is absolutely certain:- the end result depends very much on the surface preparation before staining commences.

Pak Ganja has explained his approach.

Pak Parman taught me only to scrub to whiteness with cleaning ash (abu gosok) and coconut husk; use of water as the lubricant is preferred, and after the blade is white, lime juice without warangan is used to sensitise the blade for the initial warangan application. I have used this cleaning method many times, and it is effective.

In Australia I do not use ash, nor coconut husk to get the blade white. I use sink cleaner such as Ajax, and steel wool or scotchbrite pads. I feel that these materials probably give a better result than the ash and coconut husk.

Whatever is used is probably not at all important.What is important is that the blade surface must be absolutely spotless, especially in the depressions and grain openings found in old blades, if you do not get rid of dirt and residual rust completely you will finish up with green or yellow discolouration under the apparently black surface.

If you want to see how good a staining job is you must take the blade into direct sunlight and look at it at an angle so that you can see into the stain. I examine in this way every blade that I pay to have done, and I usually reject at least 50% of those blades. If you only look at a blade in indirect light you cannot see the imperfections in the staining. If you look at it inside a building, you will never see anything.

A really good staining job takes a long time to do, and can require adjustment of contrast even when it is seemingly finished. It is an art, and in my experience very few people can practice this art effectively.

However, almost anybody can get a decent result just by following instructions and using common sense.

[David]

Thank you so much Alan. Though i cannot really tell until i make my next attempt, i believe the little tips you have given here will improve my staining skills a good 50%. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

You do a pretty fair job as it is , David.

You know, you can sometimes return a dirty old blade to almost good just by washing it with dishwash detergent and a hard toothbrush. Just wash it at the sink with hot water, blow dry with a hairdryer after patting dry with a lint free cloth, and then drench with WD40.

This is a simple thing to do, but it really can bring a lousy looking blade back to life. Sure, it won't be as good as a complete clean and stain, but it can improve a blade enormously.

[ganjawulung]

.. And for 'traditional staining' in Jawa, not only the preparation of "mutih" the blade is absolutely important, but also the formula of mixing the ready-to-use warangan. (The art is here. I have certain friends in Solo who has private empirical solution to make a better warangan, such as -- mixing the warangan with 'spoiled rice', and so on). According to my experience -- and also my keris-stainer friend in Solo -- warangan liquid made of (we call it) "warangan apotik" (literally means 'drugstore arsenic' or chemical arsenic), usually is quick reacting but more corrosive. After couple of months stained with "warangan apotik" then usually the edge of the keris usually "ngrikit" (corroded). Maybe because of the purity of the arsenic.

That is why in Yogya and Solo, people still prefer to choose "natural arsenic" or we usually call it "warangan". Traditionally used by our ancestor in the past. Usually, chinese warangan (imported from China). Even we don't use local (Indonesian) warangan, because of the worse quality then the chinese...

The impurity of the arsenic in warangan, maybe the clue... Not too corrosive as "warangan apotik"...

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

Laboratory quality arsenic trioxide is most definitely not corrosive.

I have used this material on more keris than I can count over a 50 year period. Many of these keris that I have stained with this material I still have in my own collection.It has absolutely no corrosive effect on a blade.

Moreover, I do not find it quicker acting. Both arsenic trioxide and traditional warangan react differently on different blades, sometimes they will work quickly, sometimes slowly.

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Both can produce a good result. Neither is corrosive. Time taken to do the job, averaged over a number of blades is about the same. If I need to do the job when I'm in Solo, I use warangan. If I do the job at home I use arsenic. I probably prefer arsenic, but that's only because I've used it more often, plus the fact that the warangan that I can currently buy in Solo is just not all that good.

The blades shown in my post # 13 were both done with arsenic; the waved blade had previously been done with warangan but was unsatisfactory.

This shown blade below was done with traditional warangan.

All these blades have been stained for a number of years , the one below for about 25 years.

Both materials give a good result if you understand the process.

Neither material is more corrosive than the other.To claim that lab quality arsenic trioxide is corrosive is simply rubbish.

As for the soak method of staining, frankly I dislike it. It is unreliable and inconsistent, but it is cheap and not labour intensive, and the only commercially viable way to stain a blade. Of course the people who stain blades for a living will speak highly of this method, but I've seen the results produced by the very best in this field, and I still reject much of their work.

As always each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but this time I'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating demonstrable fact.

[ganjawulung]

Neither material is more corrosive than the other.To claim that lab quality arsenic trioxide is corrosive is simply rubbish..
I saw, that both your examples are 'newer' blades. How about your experience of staining of your old blades? My opinion is based on my own experience on my old blades...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenic_trioxide
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg168.pdf
http://health.yahoo.com/leukemia-medications/arsenic-trioxide/healthwise--d04720a1.html

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, that's arsenic trioxide. Which we already know. What is the relevance of the links?

What we're talking about here is the supposed greater corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide over warangan.

In this respect I have not noticed any difference between warangan and arsenic trioxide.

None at all.

Arsenic is very mildly acidic. Lime juice itself is far more acidic than arsenic.

So is vinegar.

So is pineapple juice.

So is coconut water.

So is dilute hydrochloric acid.

So is dilute sulphuric acid.

So is citric acid.

And all these quite mild acids are regularly used to clean keris blades.

Yes, the three blades I've posted pics of are all new blades. I made two of them, Yantono made one of them.They're new.

I've used arsenic trioxide on old blades many times, but I cannot recall exactly which old blades that I still have that I've done with arsenic --- or more correctly, there are a couple I can easily ID as having been done with arsenic, but I do not publish photos of my personal keris. I have probably still got some blades that I've done with arsenic that are ID'd as blades that I will sell, and if I can find one or two I'll put up pics of those too.

However, the long and the short of it is that I have never noted any corrosive effect flowing from use of arsenic trioxide.

In my experience this corrosiveness of arsenic trioxide simply does not exist.

Not only does it not exist in my experience, but the claim is impossible to support with logic, given the relative acidity of arsenic trioxide and lime juice.

If a blade edge has become eroded following the staining process it will be because of some factor other than the use of arsenic trioxide.

[ganjawulung]

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, .... .
Would you please clarify this sentence, Mr Maisey? Thank you in advance...

GANJAWULUNG

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, this is the sentence I wrote:-

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide.

Read the entire sentence and I'm certain it is perfectly clear.

Read the paragraph and there can be doubt at all of my meaning:-

Look, we can tell all the yarns we like, and recount second hand stories, but I've used both traditional warangan and lab quality arsenic trioxide. Both can produce a good result. Neither is corrosive. Time taken to do the job, averaged over a number of blades is about the same. If I need to do the job when I'm in Solo, I use warangan. If I do the job at home I use arsenic. I probably prefer arsenic, but that's only because I've used it more often, plus the fact that the warangan that I can currently buy in Solo is just not all that good.

However, just so there will be no doubt at all about my meaning I will attempt to clarify, as you have requested.

I am drawing a comparison between my actual experience over a very long period of time, involving a very large number of blades, and using both substances, namely traditional warangan, and lab. quality arsenic trioxide, and your recounting of the experience of others that has been related to you.

As you would appreciate, this is the difference between extensive first hand experience, my own, and your received reports and impressions from other people.

You are perfectly at liberty to ignore or discount my comments if you so desire, because in fact, from your perspective, my recounted experience need carry no more weight than the experiences of others that have similarly been presented to you.

Your acceptance or rejection of my comments is of absolutely no importance to me:- I have told what I know to be true and I see no need to prove anything to you, nor to any other person. However, your acceptance of the results of my experience could be to your benefit, although this acceptance would not make one iota of difference to my state of existence.

[David]

I do not have anywhere near the staining experience that Alan has, but i must report that i have never had a corrosive effect from staining with arsenic trioxide. I do not have any experience with warangan to compare with, but no corrosive effect is still no corrosive effect and does not need comparison to be a true statement.
I also am not sure why Ganja provided these links to arsenic trioxide warnings either. You will notice that these are basically warnings about ingestion. Again, i would recommend that it is just plain common sense that you not lick your fingers when working with this stuff, do it in a safe environment and clean up well when you are finished. Warangan would be similarly poisonous if ingested so the same warnings would stand for it as well.
Ganja, i believe Alan's remark about "yarns and second hand stories" was not aimed specifically at you. Such second hand advice has been sprinkled throughout this thread and frankly i have found some of it to be questionable info. So far Alan is the only person who has posted information on this thread who has had a vast amount of consistent first-hand staining experience with both lab arsenic and realgar. This experience spans the past 50 years! I am personally willing to hear the advice of others with such experience. But i am more likely to give credence to the first-hand informant with vast knowledge of the process than i am to believe second-hand info for informants i have no personal connection with. :shrug: :)

[ganjawulung]

You are perfectly at liberty to ignore or discount my comments if you so desire, because in fact, from your perspective, my recounted experience need carry no more weight than the experiences of others that have similarly been presented to you. .
I always take positive sides on anything. Even on negative situation. Anyway, thanks for your comments, Alan.

I am personally willing to hear the advice of others with such experience. But i am more likely to give credence to the first-hand informant with vast knowledge of the process than i am to believe second-hand info for informants i have no personal connection with. :shrug: :)
Thanks, thanks a lot, David....

GANJAWULUNG

[kulbuntet]

Dear GANJAWULUNG,

I thought it was the other way around?

SIRAMAN (BATHING) METHOD
There are other types of bathing:
1. Nyek, a mixture of citrus with warangan and cemengan (darkened aste water of marangi). Whitened keris are sun dried between 8 and 11 in the morning. After keris is warm, fingers are dipped into the mixture and pressed into tosan aji from hilt to tip until the tosan aji becomes black. Then, water is poured to the tosan aji and brushed with ash. This step is called dikeplok. Then the blade is brushed carefully so the black layer stays. Next, tosan aji is wiped and sun dried. This process is repeated until desired result is acquired. Next, tosan aji is washed with ash to remove the citrus acid. Then washed with clean water and sun dried. After tosan aji is dry, it is oiled.
2. Blonon (koyoh), similar to nyek, but, tosan aji is not pressed with fingers but brushed to apply warangan. After tosan aji is dark, it is immediately being dikeplok with ash. This process is repeated until the ornaments boldens.
3. Koloh, using other place, whitened tosan aji is dipped into citrus warangan mixture with cemengan. After a few minutes, tosan aji is lifted and dried. Then, water is poured and dikeplok. The process is repeated and tosan aji is not sun dried. The key factors of the success of this method lie on the keplok step. The black color on iron can slowly sink in to the iron.

regards

Edit,

I think i may understand what GANJAWULUNG means with the term corrosif (pls correct me iff im wrong!). Not corrosif as in acid, but like in reactable. I does react to the iron. The blacker the iron becomes, the ticker the reacted layer of iron. The more the iron is "eaten"(reacted to a arsenic iron compound). Iff you do this every year, like in surra month usual is... in years it will eat a piece of your keris...

[kulbuntet]

I do hsare your opinion about that diffrent blades (pamor technices+material) need diffent aproach. Yes a new blade with pamor neckel/nickel/titanium or something that is pure. Needs a more stong solution, now since that AsS or As2S3 do not solve as good than As2O3(20Gr/l) And trioxide is wtronger to react.. beter to use trioxide. But with old blades as pamor Luwu and Pramamban beter to use less strong solution, realgar does the job good engouh. Just need to give it more time. My experience with realgar is that the solution does need time too to get on strenght.

here some pic of my just finished blade. Hope the pice are good enough

notice the bath on the left.
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/940/img0862.jpg



BTW, this is ther Yogja Keris with the square peksi!http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4789/img0863.jpg

[David]

I do hsare your opinion about that diffrent blades (pamor technices+material) need diffent aproach. Yes a new blade with pamor neckel/nickel/titanium or something that is pure. Needs a more stong solution, now since that AsS or As2S3 do not solve as good than As2O3(20Gr/l) And trioxide is wtronger to react.. beter to use trioxide. But with old blades as pamor Luwu and Pramamban beter to use less strong solution, realgar does the job good engouh. Just need to give it more time.
Just a thought. Can't the strength of the solution be adjusted based on the amount of arsenic used in the solution. As2O3 is stronger than realgar, but if you use less in your solution than your solution should be weaker, right?
Thanks for showing us part of your process Michel. I like your home made staining trough. Frankly i am picking up a tip or two from all these different methods which i believe will be helpful to my process in the end. :)

[kulbuntet]

Just a thought. Can't the strength of the solution be adjusted based on the amount of arsenic used in the solution. As2O3 is stronger than realgar, but if you use less in your solution than your solution should be weaker, right?
Thanks for showing us part of your process Michel. I like your home made staining trough. Frankly i am picking up a tip or two from all these different methods which i believe will be helpful to my process in the end. :)

Hi David,

Yes of coarse, your thinking is correct. When i make a solution i make it as a stock solution... this means as strong as it can get and put a bit extra in it, to lay on botom of the yar( see pic one left top). Let it stand for a year. As you can see on the pic, my bath is almost black coloured. It was a year ago just yellowish (lime juice colour). The warangan need to solve slowly, because i must be extraced from the mineral.

These stock solutions are so strong that even with colder temperature it wil darken a blade, but not with good results.. when you want to do some work.. just dillute it a bit, when stil to stong a bit more.. dilluting a solution is posible and wil keep the solution good to go.. but when to weak.. put more in.. normal.. but before it wil work.. one year later. The use of trioxid is easy because it wil work when you make it.. because the faster solving of the salt (As2O3).

Another tip!, i dont trow away anny thing... same for the waste water. It holds a bit or warangan, so i recycle it it it gets stronger, than it can be used to dillute or vaporised bath. Or for slow washing realy old blades.

[A. G. Maisey]

A.--- An old Madura blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1965.

B.--- An old Sumatra blade, stained in about 1960 with sulphur, salt, rice water.

C.--- An old Bali blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1962; this blade was extremely corroded and had deteriorated badly prior to the clean and stain.

D.--- An old South Sumatra blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1974.

E.--- An old Surakarta blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1978; this blade was purchased from an English dealer and is attributed to Wirasukadgo.

F.--- An old Bali/Lombok blade, arsenic trioxide, stained about 1970.

G.--- An old Peninsular Bugis blade, stained with warangan in Jogjakarta in 1972 by Romo Murdo; this was a "quick fix" stain, not a proper clean and stain.

H.--- An old Jawa blade (Senopaten), stained with warangan in Jogjakarta in 1978; this is a standard commercial stain.

I.--- A keris made by Empu Suparman in 1982 and stained by him using warangan.

J.--- My first attempt at pamor in a keris blade, made in 1980 before I was taught by Pak Parman, this stain was done with arsenic trioxide.

K.--- My first attempt at pamor in a dagger blade, made in 1980, this blade is the same construction as a keris, with a steel core and pamor of nickel and iron on its faces, the blade has not been stained but only etched with dilute hydrochloric acid.

K1.--- Close up of K.

L.--- A dagger of damascus which I made in about 1985, this is made of wrought iron and 01 steel, it was etched with hydrochloric acid, stained with ferric chloride, then washed with white wine vinegar.

L1.--- Close up of L1.

Looks like they've been posted here in a very disordered fashion, guess you'll just have to look for the titles.

[A. G. Maisey]

I had 14 pics but could only upload 12 at a time, so here are the las two:-

L.--- A dagger of damascus which I made in about 1985, this is made of wrought iron and 01 steel, it was etched with hydrochloric acid, stained with ferric chloride, then washed with white wine vinegar.

L1.--- Close up of L1.

[David]

Thank you so much for this presentation Alan.
Just a bit off topic because it is not a keris, but i really like the design of this last blade you posted. Very eloquent. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks David. It is one of the better things I've done.

I'm not so sure that this is off-topic, because what we're talking about is blade staining, and I believe that this encompasses more than just keris and arsenic. I've stained many different types of materials, and I've used many different substances to achieve the stains. The wider one's experience the more that experience can contribute towards the achievement of excellence in just one medium.

What I've tried to do with these pics is to show some of the variations that can occur.

Here is a side view of that damascus dagger.

[kulbuntet]

nice work Alan,

Like A+B, love G, Kenanga? Would love to get my hands on some sekar blades to.. difficult to find good ones. Iff do.. way to expencive for my little wallet :S

Pic of some chunks waragnan, and trioxid pot.
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/9848/img08742.jpg

here some more (clearer) pics of the blade recently done. Notice the square peksi, as writen of in other thread. For the ones remembering, that i did promise to post pics... after long search (at my moms house). found it but did not want to show without good clean and wash. Beter late than never.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4010/img08752k.jpg

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8302/img08762.jpg

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5516/img0877v.jpg

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7716/img0878qbu.jpg

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2170/img0879s.jpg

[Marcokeris]

.....here some more (clearer) pics of the blade recently done. Notice the square peksi, as writen of in other thread. For the ones remembering, that i did promise to post pics... after long search (at my moms house). found it but did not want to show without good clean and wash. Beter late than never.

Yes it's too dark!!. I 'ld try to wash it with a little lemon juice in the water... or a lot of cream soap over my fingers (...if the cream becames yellow...great day!! :) )

[kulbuntet]

.....here some more (clearer) pics of the blade recently done. Notice the square peksi, as writen of in other thread. For the ones remembering, that i did promise to post pics... after long search (at my moms house). found it but did not want to show without good clean and wash. Beter late than never.

Yes it's too dark!!. I 'ld try to wash it with a little lemon juice in the water... or a lot of cream soap over my fingers (...if the cream becames yellow...great day!! :) )
Opinion or fact? And can you underbuild you statment how it should look like... pics please.. from a equal blade with same pamor material! Not technique. Would like to see what you like/mean.

[Marcokeris]

Opinion or fact? And can you underbuild you statment how it should look like... pics please.. from a equal blade with same pamor material! Not technique. Would like to see what you like/mean.
I dont have an equal blade with same pamor material

[kulbuntet]

I dont have an equal blade with same pamor material did you ever wash one like it?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, in the photos this blade looks too dark.

But it may not be.

We do not know what the true colour of the material is:- we can all only work within the limits of the material.

It is not possible to make a Tuban blade look like a Surakarta blade.

Maybe what we see here is the correct colour for this blade.

Look at the examples I have posted:- there is a lot of variation in colour, and this is only a small sample, in reality, blade colours can vary a lot more than this.

Because of the limits of the material we need to be able to classify a blade according to tangguh so that we can recognise when the blade colour is correct.

[Marcokeris]

did you ever wash one like it?
like it never
...but i washed a lot (sometime a lot of time only for one blade :shrug: )

[kulbuntet]

hmm, oke.

I do share you opinion that some blades have to done of and over again. I is same like handeling people man or woman( one even more difficult than other :-)
especialy when you dont know the blade/ person.... And even iff you get to know how he/she is for person.. stil have to figure out what is good or wrong. like in clothing... but the clothes have to fit..

Iff there are 2 dresses for putting one one woman... you realy like the white neat dress.... but she is size 32 and the dress is size 28.... will it fit?

just try to make a point here.. hope its clear, probaly wont be ...

let say iff i thought it was not good, for this keris.. would not have post it.. would already have washed it back.. no detergent/lime.. just cocowater.. does the job too and neutralise the arsenic still in the blade.

Would hope that you can find a pic on the net or so, to show me what contrast you prefer. Btw some of Alan's blades the besi much darker.. But also diffent background and photo's..some dry some in oil, some newisch, some old pamor... I dont think it's posible to get same results on diffrent blades, with manny diffrent factors, influencing the results. But that also it a opinion... Open for dialogue

regards

[kulbuntet]

Yes, in the photos this blade looks too dark.

But it may not be.

We do not know what the true colour of the material is:- we can all only work within the limits of the material.

It is not possible to make a Tuban blade look like a Surakarta blade.

Maybe what we see here is the correct colour for this blade.

Look at the examples I have posted:- there is a lot of variation in colour, and this is only a small sample, in reality, blade colours can vary a lot more than this.

Because of the limits of the material we need to be able to classify a blade according to tangguh so that we can recognise when the blade colour is correct.Oke Alan, good comment.. cleary build..how can i be of asistence to give you more info to give you a clear impression of the blade (tanguh). Must i post dry pics?

addon,

this blade is when in oil (not like in pic) almost same colour.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Xf_OlM8P4GA/SJONWhzHsJI/AAAAAAAAADA/zr27dxQO1PA/s576/Yogja001_Linkerkant_onder.JPG

[Marcokeris]

I always have used western (italian) lemon juice together warangan and i put the blade in the same way mr. Kulbuntet have showed in the nice pics.
If i have a blade with a little rust i'm not happy and "before or after" i finish to use warangan.
SOMETIMES i like my work (of course is my personal taste).....(sorry i dont have the pics before i used warangan)....

[Marcokeris]

...

[Marcokeris]

...sometimes i dont like!

[kulbuntet]

Like Alan just say,

need to look in to Tangguh of the blade. A new erra blade will never give smame results as a tuban/mojio/matharam/jengala/pajajeran. Just diffrent material/techniques. When washing, should not use the nickel/luwu/meteor material lines as indicator when blade is done.. the iron is the indicator. Iff not black, not realy. Iff is, done.

Marco, you may just call me Michel.. No problem taken is do, or dont. Im 32 and not of royal or other high status so dont need to stay formal on this ;-)

Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Provided that the clean and stain job is done by somebody who understands the process, the end colour of the blade is always 100% dependent upon the material in the blade.

Always.

Bali blades are usually of high contrast material and nickel is mostly present, so they finish looking black and white.

Surakarta blades are similar.

But when you are handling a Pajajaran blade, you are dealing nearly always with pamor that has been produced from high phosphorus iron, so you don't get black and white, you get dark grey and light grey or dirty white.

With a village made blade the material can vary enormously so we need to closely monitor the changes in appearance when we first start to work on it.

We should be able to guess fairly closely what the blade will finish like as soon as we start to work on it, even if we have no idea of classification of the blade.

As for tangguh.

This is a system of classification that in this day and age appears to be almost completely misunderstood. It developed in response to a need, and now that need has passed the guidelines that originally applied are no longer followed. Every salesman, and every collector wants to place a tangguh on his blade, almost as if that is a seal of authenticity. It should not work like this. Tangguh should only be applied to blades of adequate quality that can be identified with a specific source. When we are considering a lower quality blade, or a village made blade, we should not even attempt to place a tangguh on it --- but that will not stop dealers and collectors from continuing to want to do so.

To classify a blade according to tangguh there are a number of indicators that need to be carefully observed and considered. There can be more than twenty, but there should not be less than twelve. Some of these indicators depend upon the perceived weight of the blade, its point of balance, and its texture when felt. It is only occasionally that a blade tangguh can be given from photographs. The occasions where you could chance giving a tangguh from photos would be restricted to some blades of extremely high quality that follow a kraton pattern exactly, or blades with certain distinctive features, such a Segaluh blade

Michel, regarding the presentation of my blades:- all were prepared for photograph in the same way. They are always kept "in oil", because I store my blades in plastic sleeves and the blade surface is always wet with oil. Prior to photographing them they are patted dry with a soft lint free cloth, then brushed over with a soft brush. The differences you can see in the blade surfaces are due to actual differences in the material and degree of erosion in the blades.

[kulbuntet]

Yes Alan,

I do understand it clearly. My remark on photography, was more about the difrence in your and my photo's.. specialy the background colour. your is blue.. sort of filter material.. to absorb light difrent than my wooden balcony tile...used to make some quick pics, to show on the forum.

And about tangguh. Yes it's normal for a collector to want to index their pieces, and give a label how old the blade is... as we do on every thing in normal life too. With the keris it's sometimes for comercial value sometimes just to want to know... depends on the person.

These indicators used for Tangguh, might ( do not know for sure, since my experience and knowledge of Tangguh is limited) also posible to use with lower keris than of high m'pu grade work, maybe not all but some wil be posible to do. But it should be used as a impression, and not as as fact or garanteed label. if done properly, it might be posible to get a good or near good impression. Yes of caorse there wil be faults made, but beter a bit of impression than none at all. Like you say, its not posible to get a surakarta blade looking as a jengala, or other way around. And by excluding other posibility's.... you might come up with an resonable impression in period...not in year/date. Wanting to do this must need manny years of knowledge/study/experience, the number of people that im confident they might can do and dare to do, are verry limited. Maybe 2 her in holland, and some in other countrys.

[David]

And about tangguh. Yes it's normal for a collector to want to index their pieces, and give a label how old the blade is... as we do on every thing in normal life too. With the keris it's sometimes for comercial value sometimes just to want to know... depends on the person.
I would agree that it is fairly normal collector behavior to want to know certain specifics about our collections including an idea of the age. I know that i always want to know that. I would like to suggest though that the "age" of a keris is not necessarily the "tangguh" of a keris. The tangguh might suggest an age and age might suggest a tangguh, but i do not believe they are exactly the same thing.
I would say that it probably is quite possible for knowledgeable people to estimate the age of a keris when held in hand because they can see the wear, feel the weight, feel the surfaces and compare style and materials with other keris that may come from the same time period. If they understand the pakem of the day and what was being presented as "correct" keris form at the time they can judge if the blade meets the standard of that particular kingdom. But is a poorly made village keris made in the late Mataram kingdom considered to be of that tangguh or simply in it if it doesn't meet the criteria and standard for keris of the day? The concept of tangguh was not created for such keris, was it?
The problem with using tangguh methods to judge the age of some keris is that the inticators for a particular tangguh may not exist in a poorly made village piece or the smith might be might have been working a a style that was out of mode for that tangguh. Even judging by materials used can be tricky. What if the keris was made from older keris? Then how do you date the metal type. In later years many keris are made from old material.
Unless we have some incredible luck with provenance for a keris we will never know the exact date of any keris. Often an expert can put a proper keris in it's proper tangguh, but often those tangguhs span a century or two. On some really high quality empu made keris where there are many known and specific inticators of that empus work someone might be able to narrow an origin down to the working life that specific empu. But this doesn't happen very often, i don't believe.
So with some of these village keris, if you are really lucky you might place it within a couple of hundred years, maybe put it in a century, and yes that is a range that the collector might be able to go with. But is it tangguh? :shrug:

[David]

BTW Marco, i don't think that anyone has remark what a beautiful job you did staining these keris you have shown us. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Michel, what you say about using tangguh to help form an impression, or as I would state it, a broad opinion of the classification of a blade is pretty much the way I would suggest that it could be used to satisfy the modern collector.

However, this is not the way it was intended to be used, it is more the way that it is practical to use it now.

Used correctly it can applied to give a good approximate indication of the age of a blade back to Mataram Sultan Agung. The closer we come to the present day, the more accurate it can be as an age indicator.

However, when we start to consider the older tangguh classifications it is perhaps best to simply acknowledge that these keris are old keris, and not couple the tangguh with any concept of actual time.

In Jawa you will find some people who will swear that tangguh Majapahit means that that keris was made during the Majapahit era.

You will find others --- others who are extremely knowledgeable ahli keris --- who will say "tangguh nggak sungguh".

To really understand the keris from a Javanese perspective it is absolutely essential to understand how the tangguh system works, and how to apply it. Regretably, the only way to gain this knowledge is to find somebody in Jawa who is prepared to teach you, and who has access to plenty of examples. Then give half a lifetime to the study.

For anybody outside Javanese society the best that can be hoped for is to gain a small understanding of the theory applied to reaching a classification.This theory really precludes the application of the system to lower quality pieces, but as I have already said, very few, if any , people use this system now as it was intended to be used.

However, there is one thing that is true:-

anybody who gives a tangguh classification to a blade must be able to support his opinion with reasoned argument by reference to the indicators he has used.

Far too often a person will say that a blade is tangguh such and such, and when pressed for his reason for saying this the best he can do is to simply say something like
"because its looks like such and such".

This is just not good enough.

However, this failure to provide reasoned argument is precisely what allows half educated "experts" to give tangguh to village quality blades.

If you stick with the indicators it is virtually impossible to classify a low quality piece within the tangguh structure.

[kulbuntet]

Oke Alan,

I undertand what you say. Like i posted before, it is a help to get an impression of a age or erra in witch the balde is made. Yes it feeds the need of the modern collector.. is there anny other need? I only can think of one other.. for museum display/indexing. But they can use carbon analisys combined with methodes that maybe could fall into tangguh classication.

You speak of using Tangguh to get a good approximate indication, how can i see this.. year/month? only year? decade? will it say anny thing about the region its made. Since like i posted before my understanding of the Tangguh system specialy with comparrison with normal giving a impression is verry limited.

Because of this i hope that the people on this forum would appriciate a Tangguh thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=89266#post89266). And hopping that you and maybe some others with knowledge of this system, would try to expain how it works and witch the indicators are.... Yes Alan i know what you now think, or what you wil respond. You told me already several times. That it is verry difficult to just expain and even more to do it on a forum or by mail, using photo's.. but please just give it a try. We the other forum members and keris entousiasts would realy appriciate the info given and try to lear us about it. I think that everybody understand that i wil not make us experts, or be able to use it propperly.. We have here in Holland a old saying.. translated...... A bullet not fired, is a target always missed.

[David]

We have here in Holland a old saying.. translated...... A bullet not fired, is a target always missed.
Yes, but if the gun is held in the wrong way, it might just take out the shooter.
;) :D

[kulbuntet]

Yes, but if the gun is held in the wrong way, it might just take out the shooter.
;) :D lol, yes... it depends on the holder of the gun.. and the gun manufacteror.. did they give the holder a manual? Did the holder read the manual?
:rolleyes:

[kulbuntet]

Yes, but if the gun is held in the wrong way, it might just take out the shooter.
;) :D lol, yes... it depends on the holder of the gun.. and the gun manufacteror.. did they give the holder a manual? Did the holder read the manual?
:p

[A. G. Maisey]

Michel, I'm going to tell you a little story.

Before I went to Jawa I had no idea at all that anything like tangguh existed. I thought I was doing pretty good if I could classify a keris according to origin in a geographic area. When I learnt and could reliably differentiate between Solo keris and Jogja keris I was regarded as a guru by local collectors.

During my first few trips to Indonesia I became aware that there was some sort of system of classifying keris that was totally beyond my understanding. I'd see old men --- always old men --- glance at the top of a keris that was still in the wrangka and pronounce it to be Tuban, or Majapahit, or whatever. Maybe they would withdraw it from the scabbard, study it for a couple of minutes and then give it as Pajajaran, or Pajang.

This was all intensely interesting, and as time went by I learnt a little more about this system, but I had no idea at all of how to use it.

Eventually I met Pak Parman and it was not until he accepted me as a student that I learnt anything worth knowing about tangguh and its application.

Pak Parman was 100% kejawen. Maybe he was 110% kejawen. If he said that a keris was Majapahit, to him, that meant that it had been made in Majapahit during the Majapahit era.

If he said that a keris was Kinom Mataram it was a keris that had been made start to finish by Kinom during the era of Sultan Agung.

This what I was taught, and it was field of knowledge that totally defied logic and reason, but as long as my teacher told me it was so, and as long as my teacher was still with us, and I was still his pupil I believed what he taught me completely.

To do otherwise would have been not only disrespectful but also incredibly stupid.

How many people from a western culture have been accepted as students by a Javanese palace empu?

To learn from Pak Parman I needed to accept and believe every word he gave me.

Without question.

The key word here is "believe".

The entire keris ethic in Central Jawa is a belief system. This includes the system of tangguh.

When you involve yourself in tangguh you need to forget reality as you understand it and adopt a Javanese world view. Time and the cosmos as it is understood by any person in a western culture does not translate into a Javanese thought pattern. You need to learn to understand everything in a different way.

Well, I struggled with tangguh and the many other things I needed to come to terms with in order to even begin to understand tangguh for years. Pak Parman though I was blind, deaf, dumb and stupid. By his standards I could not grasp even the most simple concept.

I had the very best teacher. The most knowledgeable man. Almost limitless access to excellent examples, and when I was asked to give the tangguh of something as simple as a Surakarta blade, or a Tuban blade, my mind went blank.

I think he probably gave up on me half a dozen times, but at the next visit he'd start again. He had an extremely violent temper and would lose patience with me very quickly, but the temper storm would pass as quickly as it arose and then he'd settle back into trying to get the knowledge that he had in his head into my head.

Pak Parman left us when I was in Australia. The next time I went back to Solo, a few months after his passing I went to visit his grave. The morning after I visited Pak Parman's grave I woke with a head full of ideas that I had not had when I went to sleep. It was as if every question I had ever had about keris was no longer a question but was already knowledge that I had always had. I could look at a keris and I could apply the indicators in an ordered fashion and give a supportable opinion on tangguh. I was not struggling to do this, I was doing it easily and naturally. Quite simply, I knew more when I awoke than I had when I went to sleep.

Michel, I am not a flake, and I do not have any sort of pretensions to any sort of paranormal powers. I look at everything from a base of logic and reason. However, I cannot explain what happened after my visit to Pak Parman's grave with any logic nor any reason.

The point of my story is this:-

if I had first hand tuition from perhaps the most knowledgeable man of his time in the application of the tangguh system, if the conditions under which I was taught were the very best conditions possible, if I had excellent access to excellent examples, and if after many years of this excellent tuition I still was unable to correctly and consistently apply the tangguh indicators and arrive at a supportable opinion, what hope is there for anybody to learn anything from photos and words on a computer screen?

Even if some small degree of knowledge could be gained, of what use is that knowledge without the ability to place the knowledge into a Javanese world view?

If you want to learn tangguh you must first learn to see the world through Javanese eyes.

Don't begin with tangguh and keris, but begin with trying to understand the way in which a traditional Javanese person understands the world. To do this you need to immerse yourself in Javanese culture and society. You cannot do it from computers and books.

[kulbuntet]

Thank you Alan for this intresting story and explaination. But were to start. Im trying to do as best i can, with the limited means that i have.

May i ask you a question about the night you went to sleep and woke up.. diffrent... Did you have a dream that night? Ever had the thought that Pak Parman might have visit you in that night? pls let me explain my question. As you know i am a Keris enthousiast for now maybe 4/5 year. It just came, without anny good posible reason. Yes i had been studying Pencak Silat in the past, but that was when i was about 16 year old, im 32 now. So that would not be the reason, as far i feel. But on one day i just walked on the waterloo square here in amsterdam, (its known as a rubisch/antque/tourist market) with my mother. i was walking past a shop and drawn inwards to the shop without anny reason. There were 2 keris hanging on the wall behind some other thing. I had a look at them, and passed on.... but the upcoming hour the keris were stil in my head, so i went back to have an other look. Ending up by buying both of them, i went home. Placing one near my bed and the other one in the living room. I had a strange dream the first night i had the keris 2 feet next to my bed. There was a old man standing next to my bed, talking to me... he told me a big story... it felt like it was a half hour or somthing like it.. i did not understand the man, since i dont understand javanese or bahasa. but ending the story the man did a movement with his right hand to the right and in a sort of flash i was in a other part of the world in a difrent time, unluckly i cant remember all of the dream what i have seen.. but i can remember a old man with a mustage meditating every time i passed by and horses and cariots. Since that happend i got realy intressted by keris and indonesian culture and history.. and wanting to know what happend to me, and why? By the way i stil dont have found the answers. I have spoken about this happening with just some other people, few dutch some in indonesia. One of the dutch people is the one that learned me washing, he is a very intresting man, that lives by keris and indonesian culture. He told me that i did not pick the kerises.. they picked me. And there must be a reason for that.. he could not give me the reason.. but told me that the future wil suport it for me, and wil make things clear for me. Same as 2 people on Jawa told me, plus that it must have to do with former lives or family ties. A other friend of me that i have told has the opinion that i must cut loose to the live i have here, and move to java... since my hart and mind is there and not here.. In the time from than till now i have
experienced not to declare things. But since the man that learned me the basics that i know now.. cant do more for me than he already has.. i need to find a new good guide, to help me take the next step. But were to start it, and were to find a good one?

You writing the story you just did, made one thing clear for me.. I need to got to Java.... and see what wil come to me. First for a holliday... later for longer.. but on this moment im stil bound im my live here, since i have a son that i love and cant do without me... because he is 12 and not able to stand on his own feet in life alone for some more years...

Its difficult to understand for the ones never experienced things like this.. it did change me alot too. Im just trying to find out were it wil bring me, and why?

regards Mich

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your story Michel.

I know I began this line of discussion, but I do not want to take it any further.

What I have already put up for public perusal is much more than I perhaps should have.

If you wish to increase your understanding I would most sincerely recommend that you undertake a continuing study of Javanese history and culture. Additionally, you must learn the language. Without the ability to use Indonesian you will forever be severly handicapped. Without the ability to at least understand some Javanese, and most importantly, to understand the logic of the Javanese language, you cannot hope to be able to understand the Javanese world view. Ideally you would want to learn Javanese, but this might be too big a project.

This is the base you must come from if you wish to understand the blossoms of Javanese culture.

[kulbuntet]

Thanks for your story Michel.

I know I began this line of discussion, but I do not want to take it any further.

What I have already put up for public perusal is much more than I perhaps should have.

If you wish to increase your understanding I would most sincerely recommend that you undertake a continuing study of Javanese history and culture. Additionally, you must learn the language. Without the ability to use Indonesian you will forever be severly handicapped. Without the ability to at least understand some Javanese, and most importantly, to understand the logic of the Javanese language, you cannot hope to be able to understand the Javanese world view. Ideally you would want to learn Javanese, but this might be too big a project.

This is the base you must come from if you wish to understand the blossoms of Javanese culture. Alan, I understand and share your wish to dont go in anny further on the first part. I do respect you wish, and iff i may be honoust... i never wnat to go into that in public too.. but for this time needed to do so.. I hope you understand.. if not, my apologies for doing so.

I understand that it is a must can do, to understand Javanese... My question.. wil Bahasado the job too? Since the Indonesian goverment forbids the public use of old languages? And do the younger Javanese people stil know the old Javanese? The understand of old Javanese is nesisary to study old manuscripts and other old publisched works, but are there no transations to bahasa? I did start to get aacquainted with bahasa.. but since i dont have a good teacher and not the time to self teach...it on low level now.

[A. G. Maisey]

The Indonesian Govt. forbids public use of old languages?

News to me.

Where I spend most of my time in Indonesia is Solo. In Solo everybody uses Javanese all the time. Even when they use Indonesian it is very rarely Indonesian by the book but Indonesian mixed with Javanese. In Bali I hear people speraking Balinese between themselves. In East Jawa --- where my wife comes from --- everybody uses Javanese all the time.

In schools in Solo, Javanese in its local form ( Basa Daerah) is taught as a subject, along with the other usual subjects. Children need to learn the old outdated alphabet, hanacaraka.

Indonesian is the "public" language and is used for classroom instruction, most newspapers, and general communication. It is the most useful single language for a foreigner to learn. However many of the Indonesians I know are competent in several languages, for instance, my wife, who is Javanese/Chinese speaks East Javanese dialect, Central Javanese dialect, Indonesian, Indonesian/Javanese/Chinese dialect, some Mandarin, some Dutch, and of course, English. However, she is unable to use Madya and Krama, her Javanese is limited to Ngoko.On the other hand, I know people in Solo who cannot read nor write, but who can use perfect Javanese in all levels.

Formal hierarchically structured Javanese is gradually disappearing, but ordinary low level Javanese is the natural language of everybody who lives in Jawa.

Old Javanese is a different language to Modern Javanese, and the literary language of old Jawa, Kawi, is different again to Old Javanese. The relationship between Old Javanese and Modern Javanese is like the relationship between Old English and Modern English.

Some works in Old Javanese, Kawi, and Modern Javanese have been translated into Indonesian, and I think some might also be available in English.

I did not learn Indonesian nor Javanese in a classroom setting. I tried this when I began to learn, but was spectacularly unsuccessful. In fact, I have very little talent in languages, but I do have a good ear and can speak with a pretty fair accent. All my language skills have been gained by actual forced use of the languages.