African Swords actually used?

[Steven C.]

Is it just me but does it seem African swords arent even used? "Throwing knives" were apparently only used for curency, and all these other swords appear to be either ceremonial religious or badges of rank.

So where are the actual weapons here, cuz I really cant find myself to have any interest in them if their not weapons.

[Tim Simmons]

Right Steven you asked for it! African brigade attention. I will start with this one. With a bit of luck you will be buried under a mountain of wonderful shaped deadly weapons. The back of this weapon is 5mm the beak part is 26cm. It weighs 700g much like a good large Kukri. There's more :eek: .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/af.jpg

[Flavio]

Hi Steven! I suppose you are talking of Central Africa arms, because there is no doubt that the kaskara, sudanese arms dagger or even nimcha or some tokuba are for real use. Anyway I'm with you that a lot of congolese weapons are for ritual-ceremonial use but there are that were used for war. Here is an example of real stuff:

1- Kuba Ilwoon (mid rib 1cm)
2- Salampasu sword
3- Yaka sword
4- Shi sword (mid rib 1cm)
5- Songye sword
6- Bandja curved sword (spine 0,7 cm)

Well, I have no doubts that all these are for real use, and at the moment I haven't good pictures of the spears that are really impressive!!
Another thing is if you ask me: do you prefer to go in war with this salampasu sword or a moro kris? the technological level is a entirely different world...

[Lew]

Hi Steve

Yes some of the Congolese knives and swords are strictly ceremonial and others were real or derived from actual weapons of war. You don't really wear too much clothing in the Congo so any sharp or long pointy weapon can be used with devastating effect. Today in the Congo one of the most feared weapons is the machete which is 18" long and only .125" thick which in comparison is not much different in size and shape and weight than the knives and swords we are speaking of.


Lew

[The Double D]

Lew, it's a panga...

[Tim Simmons]

Many weapons with this shape or versions similar are status weapons, the use of may indeed be questioned. Not this one. The blade is 33.5cm long and 10cm at the widest point. The blade is the flat z section often seen with African weapons to add strength to blades rather than making then bigger and heavier. This one it is more for decoration as the centre seam is 4mm thick.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/af005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/af006.jpg

[Tim Simmons]

I think it is worth mentioning that a great many of the shiny chunky weapons from almost everywhere are really status or parade weapons. Just look very close and you will find that only a small percent show any real signs of use.

[Steven C.]

That bandja sword really looks like an Egyptian khopesh...

So is there any sites or topics or something that discuss how these swords were used? How effective they are? I just wanna learn bout these real war ones. That Salampasu sword impresses me.

Also is this one, (the only African sword I've ever really liked) used for war? And in what manner, is it a good chopper?

http://www.faganarms.com/75-1052-1053.jpg

[Emanuel]

Nice Kuba knife Steven. I'm watching one on the bay and I hope to have it in my collection soon :) I had thought these had more of a ceremonial use, but then who says one couldn't actually cut and fight with them?
As for how effective they were, I think they were as good as any other type of blade. IIRC African martial arts do not include any recognizable form of "fencing", lacking any parrying. This and the lack of armour will make any sharp instrument deadly.

That bandja sword really looks like an Egyptian khopesh...
Except that the khopesh had the edge on the convex side, whereas the bandja has it on the concave side. I've run into a number of publications that list the khopesh as a "sickle weapons" even though it isn't the case :shrug: Check out this thread (http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=9497&highlight=khopesh) for more.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Luc LEFEBVRE]

These Ikulbapyaang from the Kuba were never used for war, they are just used for ceremony.

http://lulef.free.fr/html/kuba.html

Luc

[Luc LEFEBVRE]

Is it just me but does it seem African swords arent even used? "Throwing knives" were apparently only used for curency, and all these other swords appear to be either ceremonial religious or badges of rank.

So where are the actual weapons here, cuz I really cant find myself to have any interest in them if their not weapons.

Throwing knives are still used in the region of the south Chad for hunting (small animals)
To use a gun you need bullets, and bullets are not cheap ! You need to buy it.
Hunting with a throwing knife just cost the ...throwing knife, and you can use it many time.
Luc

[Lew]

Here are some Boa tribe swords and I would not want to be on the pointy end of them. Also this Zande dagger with ivory hilt the blade is stout and deadly

Lew

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Steven,
To answer a broadly worded question...it depends.
I think Christopher Spring addressed this well in his "African Arms & Armour" when he noted the desperate tendancy of those in the 'west' to always try to explain or understand the practical use of every weapon.

As Tim has noted, many of the weapons of Africa were actually parade or ceremonial. It should be further noted that African tribal warfare was often carried out much differently than that of many other cultures, and there was a great deal of showmanship involved, with the bearing weapon of the chiefs trying to look more intimidating than the next etc.

The use of the throwing knives has received wide speculation, but it is known that they were in degree actually used, many of course werent.
The 'hwi' of Dahomey and many of the bearing swords of west African regions were so elaborate they would have useless at best in battle.

North Africa, they are still wearing takoubas and kaskaras...and yes, they were most definitely used, very effectively. In Central Africa, many forms were intended for use, but remember that they were typically intended as secondary to bows and spears. This may explain lack of wear on many of the existing examples.

All the best,
Jim

[werecow]

Here are some Boa tribe swords and I would not want to be on the pointy end of them. Also this Zande dagger with ivory hilt the blade is stout and deadly

Lew

Ran across this thread and thought I'd add my two cents here. I have these two swords below. The smaller one (55.5 cm long, 6 cm wide at the widest point) is of superior quality and would IMO make a very effective stabbing weapon. It is 8mm thick at the thinnest point profile wise (tapering in both directions from there; see last picture) and weighs 419 grams.

The one that is overcompensating for my mediocre sized genitalia (92.5 cm long 9.4 cm at the widest point - the sword, not the genitalia) is either non-functional - ironic, I know - or alternatively, must have been made not for an average Congolese man but rather for either a giant or a large silverback gorilla on steroids (riding a bull bush elephant no doubt), because it is very heavy to wield due to its forward weight, in spite of only weighing 883 grams. The blade is thin enough to sag under its own weight (although it is stiffer than I would have guessed based on the 4mm width). Still, it is fairly sharp and could probably cleave an unarmored person in half vertically. If it was made to intimidate the opponent without bloodshed as suggested on this forum, then mission accomplished! The pictures don't quite do it justice. I have named it Titanoboa. :D

EDIT: Added a picture of the distal taper on the smaller one since it suggests that this one was intended for use. Titanoboa has no such complex distal taper and was IMO purely ceremonial, or, as suggested on the forums, possibly intended as money - in which case I'm presumably quite wealthy now. :cool:

[ausjulius]

Is it just me but does it seem African swords arent even used? "Throwing knives" were apparently only used for curency, and all these other swords appear to be either ceremonial religious or badges of rank.

So where are the actual weapons here, cuz I really cant find myself to have any interest in them if their not weapons.

most of the xamples you can find were never used nor meant to be and show no signs of sharpening after the initial work the blacksmith made. but many older examples show clear signs a of sharpening and some have scabbards. some of these were nodoubt notfuctional wepaons but others were.. it depend son what they are. there is a big veriety