keris and spirit

[Raden Usman Djogja]

I would like to share, discuss and ask your opinion regarding spirit and keris.
Some people believe that the spirit lay in a keris. I do not want to raise questions on it (exactly). Something exists because someone beleives.

What I want to share is based on my own experiences. Firstly, I have met with uncountable person who posses keris. Most of them had spiritual stories according to their kerises.

Secondly, I have some kerises. Whenever meeting with someone who felt having sixth sense, sometimes, I showed him/her one of my kerises, then, listening his/her opinion. Case by case. In general, they agreed that there was something inside. However, in detail, their explanations varied.

I tried to get my own explanation on it without doubting their words. Someday, when I turned on cd player, suddently, I realized that by using cd or dvd everyone could listen songs or watch films (lively). However, nobody believes there is a spirit inside cd or dvd.

I just imagine that keris is as cd/dvd and a person who posseses the sixth sense is cd/dvd player.

[A. G. Maisey]

G'day Raden.

I am not Javanese. I am a 66 year old Australian, a risk and audit professional, and strongly nationalistic.

I also have studied the art, history, society and culture of Jawa for over 50 years, I have studied the keris specifically for almost as long, I have spent time in Jawa most years since the 1960's, my wife is from Jawa and I am the pupil of Empu Suparman Supawijaya (Alm.)

I will not present an opinion in the matter you have raised, but I will briefly outline several situations for your consideration.

My son-in-law is from an old Solo priyayi family.His brother-in-law is an engineer, recently retired. My son-in-law's sister died immediately after her husband retired. The husband then searched around for something to fill his time, and he discovered keris. Prior to this he had shown no interest at all in keris.He joined a keris discussion club, and within the space of about 7 or 8 years has put together a collection of about 60 or so keris.He has these keris sorted into two classifications:- one lot of keris were previously owned by kyai-kyai, the other lot of keris were previously owned by pangeran-pangeran. He discovered who had previously owned these keris by meditation and dreaming. A few of these keris contain powerful entities which assist him in various ways. Again, the existence of these entities was revealed by meditation and dreaming.It is of interest to note that several of the keris that have previously belonged to kyai, or pangeran, or that contain powerful entities, are current era production from Madura.

Over the years I have been given a number of keris. Several of these keris were given to me when I agreed to accept them from the previous owners after they had been advised to get rid of these keris because they were causing misfortune , or were evil. In one case several violent deaths were attributed to one of these keris, in another case several failed businesses were attributed to the keris. I think the number of "evil" keris that I currently hold is somewhere in the order of 8 or 10 keris. I have never suffered any misfortunes or ill luck during the period I have held these keris, that I could not put down to my own stupidity, or lack of preparation and planning.

I know of two instances of keris that were bought in a normal market transaction by a dukun (actually two separate dukuns) and that after suitable preparation of a provenance in one case, and a stage setting in the other were onsold to the dukuns' clients as powerful talismans. Until today one of the people who recieved this powerful keris still has absolute faith in the power of this keris to protect his house from misfortune.

I have attended an event in company with a number of Javanese people where a man changed himself into a tiger. All the Javanese people saw this happen. I only saw a man who began to behave like a tiger. It was explained to me that I could not see the tiger because the spirit of the tiger did not want to reveal itself to me.

Now, on the other hand I have heard a toke talking when people with me heard only the sound of the toke.

I have had some keris and tombak given to me after a woman was visited by her dead husband in a dream, told where to find these keris and tombak and how to dispose of them.

I know of instances where somebody has known of things happening in another place, and told of it, long before finding out that those things did in fact happen.

I am not a non-believer in the paranormal, but in any case where it appears that something paranormal does exist it is perhaps as well to consider all factors associated with this paranormal event before accepting that the event has been generated by factors or elements that cannot be traced to a human source.

[Michel]

Hi Raden,
I am a Swiss engineer who lived for a few years in Malaysia and Thailand and traveled in the countries around. I am collecting kris and other Asian Edge weapons. I am nowhere close to Alan in terms of knowledge about kris but I have lived an experience that still puzzle me with one of my kris.
Having returned to Switzerland at my retirement, we bought a house build in 1721 in a local village. Old houses are usually well situated with little or no influence of the underground water system that can affect your sleeping pattern. Having difficulties in sleeping, my wife and I called a geobiologist of the local Polytechnic University to measure, with recognized instruments, the possible underwater stream and the so called Hartmann network. (One should not be sleeping with a crossing of the network on the beds. So at least goes the theory !) He came, made his measures, made his drawings, went through all rooms, measuring and drawing. In my office are stored in an Indonesian basket about 50 krisses. He was turning and turning in this office and said: there is en "entity" in this room that is bothering me and my measures.
So I asked : What is an entity ? Where is it ? Why does it trouble your measures ?
He answered : I feel a very powerful presence somewhere in this room that bother me but not my instruments.
And he went towards my krisses and asked : what is this ? He had never seen a kris before.
So I took the krisses one after the other and he said : no, no , not this one, until I took one of the first kris I bought in Kuala Lumpur, not very nice, nothing special, it is traditional sumatra blade and Palembang sheath and grip, and said: this is it, very powerful, I can feel the entity irradiating at 4 meter distance.
So I asked: good , bad, what does it do ? I have never felt anything special about that kris !
He would not answer and said simply : do not play with it, I will take care of this entity and divert its force.
I paid him what I owed him and we never saw him again. My kris is sleeping with all my other edge weapons and neither my self nor anybody else could identify this kris as special or feel anything about it.
I think that people, like myself, who have been educated in a very technical and materialistic world do not have enough sensitivity to feel anything that we cannot see or measure and we keep seeing people behaving like tigers where others will really see tigers (As Alan explained)
What still puzzles me is that an engineer, trained and educated in Switzerland, not knowing the existence of kris, could come in my home and point to one of them and tell me that weapon has a difference, it has an entity (whateve it means).
In Africa, my helpers could hear and see many things I could not. Were these things real ?
What I cannot see and measure does not bothers me.
However, I cannot measure and see the thoughts of others, but they can bother me !!

[A. G. Maisey]

I can give you a parrallel story.

My wife's uncle was a "spiritual advisor" to President Sukarno, and when Sukarno was replaced, President Suharto then relied upon his services. He was a paranormal who could distant view, who made predictions that had a fairly high success rate , and he gave advice as to the best time and place to undertake various activities. He was a strange little man. Looked something like a frog, and in his house he had a "power room", that was full of keris and paintings of himself. He did have enormous presence and force of personality, and there are a lot of stories in the family about some of the things he did, such as facing down an entire battle group of insurgents during the struggle for freedom, insurgents who had just been on a murder rampage, and telling them to go home and leave his neighbourhood alone. Apparently they dispersed and all shuffled off in different directions as if they did not know what they were doing.

Anyway, about 20 years ago Uncle Jan visited us in Australia, and naturally we spent time going through my collection. When he handled one particular keris he could not hold it and threw it to the floor yelling "panas, panas, panas" (panas=hot). He then proceeded to direct me to get it out of the house and get rid of it because it was more evil than he could talk about.

Now the peculiar thing is this:- some time before this incident I was living in a different house and was visited by a Hungarian gentleman who was a psychic and who had a record for doing things like find the bodies of murdered people. He had never seen a keris before seeing mine, and he had no idea what they were. When he handled the keris that Uncle Jan had handled some years later, it flew from his hands and hit the opposite wall. He immediately left the room, would not touch that keris again and requested that I take the keris out of the house while he was there. He would not talk about what he felt.

When I brought this keris into my house for the first time there is a possibility that it moved from where I believe I placed it to a different place on the floor.

I still have this keris, I feel absolutely nothing from it, in fact, I rather like it, it not a keris that I would ever pass on to somebody else.

During my life I have had custody of literally thousands of keris, and I have handled many thousands more. I have never, ever had any sort of unpleasant feeling from a keris, but I sometimes have had a warm, comfortable feeling when handling a keris.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Thank you, Alan & Michel, for sharing stories and experiences. To me, your stories broden my knowledge of keris.

Another story I would like to share. In 2005, I visited Empu Djeno in Yogyakarta. Some people believed that he was the last Empu left in the modern Yogyakarta. At that time, I ordered him to make a keris for me. Expected, that keris would be finished up at the end of the year 2008. Unfortunately, few months ago, I got bad news that Empu Djeno passed away. Now, nothing I can do for knowing whether the keris has finished or not, because, at this moment, I live in Africa.

Even till now, I am still eager to find a small meteorite for keris material. Friends, can you inform me where I can get a genuine meteorite.

Alan, as a pupil of late Empu Suparman, would you please to share your experiences in making a keris, especially, the untold ritual process? Thank you in advance.

[A. G. Maisey]

Forgive me Raden, but I do not think that I can comply with your request.

The physical process of making a keris is well documented, and I do not think that my repetition of it would serve any purpose, however if you have any specific queries on any particular part of the process, I am willing to try to answer your specific question.

Regarding ritual and mental preparation, I would prefer not to make any comment at all. I am sure that if you reflect upon this you will understand why.

[kai]

Hello Raden,

Even till now, I am still eager to find a small meteorite for keris material. Friends, can you inform me where I can get a genuine meteorite.
Obtaining meteorite of the right quality is pretty easy these days. Once you know what you need exactly, just check ebay/etc. and your bring your wallet. ;)

However, the major problem will likely be to find a skilled pandai keris who is able and willing to work with meteorite material...

I'd recommend to check out old threads on this forum like this one:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2033

Use the search function:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search.php?

Don't forget to also tap the old forum:
http://www.vikingsword.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?action=intro&default=1

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Iron/nickel meteorite is readily available. I was just at a Gem & Mineral show this past weekend and the going rate seemed to be somewhere around .32 cents a gram. That's about $143 USD a pound. I have no idea just how much material you would need to create a keris with all meteorite pamor, but it wouldn't be too outrageous. However...Kai makes a good point. Finding a skilled keris smith who could work the material correctly might be more difficult.
Raden, i believe that even in 2005 most if not all of the work was being done by Empu Djeno's apprentices, with him merely supervising. It is very possible that your keris is still in process. You might want to try to make contact to find out. I assume that if you ordered a keris that some money must have changed hands.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

David, Alan & Kai

Let me express happiness before continuing the discussion. This morning, finally, I got the cell number of Mr. Sungkowo, a foster son of Empu Djeno. He informed me that my commisioned keris had finished before Empu Djeno passed away. He will deliver this commisioned keris to my house in Yogyakarta tomorrow morning. Simply, I am very happy to know about it.

Alan, your comments have very deep meanings. Okay, I am going to contemplate to grasp what exactly messages you want to deliver.

Kai, I have open threads you reccomended. Sigh... long, but fruitful. Thank you.

David, yes, you are right. Considering his age dan health, Empu Djeno said that he would be assisted by apprentices, especially his foster son, Sungkowo. The main role of Empu Djeno is in supervision, in final steps and, most important for me, in ritual aspects. I agreed with those preconditions.

According to meteorite, the long threads I read (recommended by Kai) has opened broder my knowlegde of keris. However, I am still interested to find meteorite which is possibly used as material for keris. Do you think the meteorite you saw past weekend is "the good" one? One pound is equivalent to how many grams? It is said that to make a kris need around 200 grams. Moreover, instead of using single source of meteorite, perhaps it will be wiser to use two or more sources. Even, now I don't know to whom I can commision
a very fine "court" keris.

[David]

If i recall correctly there are approximately 28 grams in an ounce and there are 16 ounces in in a pound. 2.2 pounds equals a kilogram. I am sure there must be a simple conversion equation for this. :rolleyes: :D
At .32 cents a gram a 200 gram meteorite would only be about $64 USD so that's not really that bad is 200 grams is all you need. :) I don't know for sure if the type of meteorite i saw this past weekend is ideal for pamor, but it was very dense and highly magnetic. :)
You can easily find it of eBay, but i am afraid you won't find any Pandai there. ;) :)

[kai]

Hello Raden,

finally, I got the cell number of Mr. Sungkowo, a foster son of Empu Djeno. He informed me that my commisioned keris had finished before Empu Djeno passed away. He will deliver this commisioned keris to my house in Yogyakarta tomorrow morning.
Congratulations!


I am still interested to find meteorite which is possibly used as material for keris. Do you think the meteorite you saw past weekend is "the good" one? One pound is equivalent to how many grams? It is said that to make a kris need around 200 grams. Moreover, instead of using single source of meteorite, perhaps it will be wiser to use two or more sources.
I certainly didn't want to discourage you!

Most meteorites found are small, so you'll most likely have to get a bunch.

You'll want meteorites with a high nickel content. If you know the area it has been collected from, you can search for a published analysis (most meteorites are bits and pieces from larger "mother meteorites" which helps to extrapolate).

Solyom & Solyom mention 50g pure nickel used for their kris. Of course, the content in meteorites is lower and they may possibly need to be forged together with iron and almost certainly extensively refined by repeated forging to obtain malleable metal for pamor work, so you'll need to account for considerable loss of material before the actual blade can be worked on...

BTW, some modern knife makers have also experimented with meteorites as material AFAIK. An Internet search may give you additional hints to avoid possible pit-falls, etc.


Even, now I don't know to whom I can commision
a very fine "court" keris.
Am I correct to assume that Mr. Sungkowo will have received extensive teachings also in the mystical/ritual aspects during Empu Djeno's last years?

Maybe Alan can offer some more suggestions?

Regards,
Kai

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Friends,

I got a private message. Perhaps, this message was from one of you. I am afraid I can not open it. So, would you please to reemail me through this following email address: oosmaand@yahoo.com. Thank you.

Kai, firstly thank you. Secondly, of course, meteorites will be used only as a tiny part of Keris. My concern is, at least, there will be extraterrestrial content. Even, because of lack of technology, the empu/Smith cannot forge it, then becoming "pamor mungul", it doesn' matter for me.

I have never bought anything through eBay. Is it difficult? Can I pay through Western Union? Now, I don't even have a bank account in Africa. I save money "uder the pillow". Yes, this is Africa. But I enjoy the rest. And, in which eBay, where can I get good quality and reasonable price of meteorite?

As a know, your assumption is right. Smith/Empu Djeno said that he had transferred most of his knowledge to Sungkowo. However, I have never met personally with "Smith" Sungkowo. Morever, I do not see his fully own creation, either. Perhaps, for my own collection, I am quite selective. Usually, I don't buy unstandard Keris such as "nerjang landep, pegat wojo, tugel pesi (does anyone give english translation for these terms, please? I want to learn English, too)"

David, please give me the eBay address of the dense and highly magnetic meteorite you mentioned. Thank you.

[pakana]

Hello dear kerislovers,

First, I was happy to read the new thread by Raden.Most threads in this forum deal with the technical aspect of keris, and very few about the mystical one.Even when I post a question about that matter, no one bothers to reply!! ;)

Of course this is a forum that the major part of the people that participate are westerners, and us westerners have a more realistic approach in spiritual matters, comparing with the Eastern people. I can understand that because my country Greece is at the middle point between West and East. So we have an attitude very pragmatic, and at the same time metaphisical :)

Maybe a lot of people here afraid to put down their experiences in the mystical side of keris, with the fear of maybe be misunderstood and laughed of. Or maybe they DO have incidents assosiated with keris, but they refuse to share because of some oath or something.

But I think that it is wrong to separate the pragmatic and the mystical side of keris, because these are one. Don't forget that keris were used more as a ritual object, and less as a stabing weapon.

George

[Alam Shah]

David, please give me the eBay address of the dense and highly magnetic meteorite you mentioned. Thank you.eBay USA: http://www.ebay.com/

You can search "canyon diablo". This is an iron meteorite.

Info about this meteorite:
http://www.alaska.net/~meteor/CDinfo.htm

[ganjawulung]

Would you mind if I join the "mysticism sharing", Raden?

There is a good book I've read on it (not finished yet), "Mysticism in Java", written by an anthropologist Niels Mulder (2005). Although in English, it is published by an Indonesian publisher, Kanisius in Yogyakarta (2005).

This not a promotion of that book, of course. I just want to share with you all.. This book is about an understanding of Javanese mysticism, and the ethics and patterns of thought that stem from it. It is esential to fathom the public discourse in Indonesia. Why Javanese? Because the Javanese form by far the largest ethnic group of the island nation (there are around 30.000 islands in Indonesia). The Javanese -- according to Niels Mulder -- are the dominating force in politics and national culture, and their ideas and beliefs from the essence of Indonesian ideology. In this book, Niels Mulder analyses the old heritage, and demonstrates its relationships with the current effort to create a national ideology and identity.

Dr Niels Mulder is not new to Indonesian. He is an independent anthropologist who conducted field research in Indonesia in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Among his books are, "Inside Indonesian Society: Cultural Change in Java", and also, "Inside Southeast Asia: Religion, Everyday Life, Cultural Change. He wrote also "Inside Thai Society: An Interpretation of Everyday Life.

Mulder's style of writing is entertaining. Thus, it makes his books easily accessible to anyone interested in the working of South-east Asian Society.

And this very book on Mysticism in Java, is not expensive. Available in almost big book stores in Indonesia such as Gramedia, or Gunung Agung. It cost only Rp 35.000, or about 3,5 euro.

I said to you once again, this is not a promotion. Or even an advertorial...

[Alam Shah]

Raden if you could find a smith who is willing to work with the meteorite materials, let us know. I have 3 different types of meteorite which can be used for a single keris blade.

Some considerations that I have for making the blade is trusting the smith, (with my meteorites). Unless, I'm there to witness the blade making process, there is a concern that the meteorite might not actually be used on my blade. :shrug:

Besides this, the outcome of the pamor and finishing on the blade...hmmm...

Do let us know your progress... ;)

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Ganjawulung. Let you join the discussion with honors, Sir. The title of the book you have been reading is very provocative using term Java rather than Indonesia. But anyway, the writer must have a strong reason. I will read that book as soon as I get it. In which part, does mysticism differ with religion since none see the shape of God? Yes, all we see God through His existence. When we feel His presence, who give an authority to claim that my way is religious while other way is mysticiuos or paganious. I am afraid that God himself doesn give an authority to other entities to make a claim. Only us, as human being, feel that God has trusted us to make such judgment.

Alam Shah. This morning (GMT) or afternoon (GMT+7/Indonesia), I called Smith Sungkowo. He has already sent my comissioned keris to my parents' home at 10.00 GMT+7. During discussion, he said that he continued what late Smith Djeno did as Empu/Smith Keris. Now, he is making a keris comissioned by Malay (not mentioned clearly who). I don't know the outcome of my comissioned keris yet. Even not watching yet, I enjoy my feeling that, since now, I have a keris which made for me personally. It is very very very unique feeling. Perhaps, one of kerislovers, here, have ever had same feeling like me right now?

As I know, the late Smith Djeno made one or two keris(es) comissioned by the late Hamengkubowono IX. At that time, he used Prambanan meteorite. If at that time, Sungkowo involved as panjak/apprentice, so logically, he has an experience to deal with meteorite. Nevertheless, it is not a guarantee that he will be able to do by his own ability without supervised by late Smith Djeno. Perhaps, you can ask directly to him according this matter.

Alam, I have checked eBay. Unfortunately, the is no Senegal in eBay list. I dont have local bank account, either.

[A. G. Maisey]

In Jawa, meteorites were welded for use as keris pamor by making a package of small pieces wrapped in iron, welding the meteorites into the iron, and then repeatedly folding and welding the iron with the meteorite pieces in it, thus removing the impurities.This produced the base material which could then be used with more iron, or without, for the pamor.

I do not know of any current era keris makers who have welded meteoritic material to make pamor material.

Some years ago I welded some meteoritic material to produce a solid ingot of meteoritic material. I did not incorporate it into iron prior to welding it, but welded the small pieces of meteoritic material together, and then repeatedly folded and rewelded these to produce a solid, clean piece of pure meteoritic material. This was passed to a maker in Surakarta to produce a keris using this as pamor material. I was dissatisfied with this keris and it was sold to (I believe) the Ambassador for Venezuela to Indonesia. There was sufficient material for a second keris, and with this second keris I worked more closely with the maker, and a satisfactory blade was produced.

It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to make a piece of pamor material exclusively of meteoritic material, in the usual type of forge used in Jawa.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

There was sufficient material for a second keris, and with this second keris I worked more closely with the maker, and a satisfactory blade was produced.


Alan,
Based on your opinion, is the pamor used meteorite different (visually) from pamor used non-meteorite materials?

Ooh... lucky you having opportunities to make those workings/experiments.

Guys, do you have any idea what I should do if I want to buy something trough eBay while there is no PayPal around here?

Pararel with this thread, there is hot discussions about pamor rojogundolo. I have kerises which claimed as rojogundolos (one is Kiai Rojosònô [sònô=dog] and another one is Kiai Gundolobajang [bajang=inperfect fetus?]. Actually, I open to share pictures of mine but getting a problem not know how to upload.

Us

[David]

Raden, to upload images is fairly easy. Just beneath your "Reply" box is an area for "Additional Options". The second one of those says "Manage Attachments". Click on that and follow through. It shpould give you the ability to upload any image on your desktop. :)

And accessing you "Private messages" should be even easier. Go to the top of the page. In the first box, just below the Vikingsword heading there is a thin box that runs the length of the page. On the far right in that box is the private message link that should take you to your messages. :)

[Raden Usman Djogja]

David

wow... thank you for helping me. Now, I can open 2 personal messages. Hopefully, soon I can upload photos.

I plan to take picture this weekend, either saturday or sunday and send on monday. Here, too many times, internetline has troble during weekend. I dont know why accessing internet in the office much faster than at home. Hmm... I am just a blind user.

one more time, thank you David

Usman

[Raden Usman Djogja]

dear all krislovers,

Thank God, fortunately, now, I still leave Kiai Gundolobajang in my officeroom. Hmm... sometimes, I bring one of my "Wesi Aji" (whats translation in English? help me please) to the office. During lunchbreak, I watch it, especially, whenever I feel homesick.

Yupe, I just took picture and uploaded it

Okay, I open to hear your comments, guys.

Additional information (if I am not mistaken): shape tilam upih, period pajajaran.

Usman

[A. G. Maisey]

Raden, I'm sorry, but I know absolutely nothing about meteorites. The meteoritic material I used came from a very big, well known American meteorite---Arizona or Colorado or somewhere like that. It was a lot of very small pieces, and it was very, very expensive, I think much more expensive than this stuff is now, as with meteoritic material , the market seems to have opened up.

My understanding of the current situation is that there is presently no problem at all in getting whatever one may need in the way of meteoritic material.

Once the inside of the meteorite is revealed it is easy to see if it is stone or metal, but looking at the outside I wouldn't have the vaguest idea of how to differentiate.

I did remark previously that it would be quite improbable that any Javanese maker could weld pure meteorite. I've thought about what I said there, and I'm probably wrong. If a large enough piece of material were to be supplied , and the maker understood that he needed to work very softly in the initial stages, it could probably be brought together into a useable ingot of pure material.

[David]

Once the inside of the meteorite is revealed it is easy to see if it is stone or metal, but looking at the outside I wouldn't have the vaguest idea of how to differentiate.
I would think that a magnet might be helpful with this problem. :shrug: :)

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Alan, thank you.

When I asked young smith Sungkowo whether there is different between keris used meteorite pamor and nickel pamor regarding with its strength of "power". He answered "most probably, yes, there is."

Then the interesting thing is we can not be able to differentiate visually it (based on your valid test).

Another story:
Longtime ago, I have discussed with someone about the spirit of keris. In his opinion, there is a bad category of keris, eventhough, according to pakem, every aspect of that keris is excelent. This kind of keris is a burnt keris. For example, if we find a keris amongst debris of a house burned down, that keris is not a good one. According to his explanation, that keris has already lost its power. Have you heard about stories similiar as it is?

Another example, he picked out Kraton Solo case. In 1980s (?), parts of Keraton burned down. Some people said they found kerises amongst debris. Those kerises, even very beautiful court ones, were classified as powerless pusaka. Why? Because already burnt

As teenager at that time, I had high curiousity to challenge his opinion by provoking that I still beleived those kerises still have giant powers. He defended succinctly his opinion, "If still having giant power, so why was the Keraton burned".

Okay... time is out. Now your turn to tell a fairytail :)

Usman

[t_c]

This isn't about an Indonesian keris, but rather a Moro kris, but I think it's relevant to your disscusion on blades and spirits.

I haven't told too many people about my experience with this kris, it was a little strange and I was never sure what people would think. One summer I was fortunate enought to visit Madrid and go to the Museo del Ejército (it's a military museum near the Museo del Prado). They have a great collection of old Phillipine weapons. I was looking at one of the krises (no scabbard) in a display case and it started to "rattle" a little bit, just kinda shake or vibrate on it's long axis. I thought it was a little weird and tried not to get excited. I was raised by a structural engineer who installed in me the virtues of the western scientific method, and taught me to always look for the rational explaination for things. With that bearing, I decided to leave the keris and walk around a little more and then come back and see if it would do it again. I did this, and again it "rattled". It was shaking as if you were to bang lightly on the shelf with which it was laying, but nothing else was moving. The rattling didn't last too long on either occassion, a few seconds or so. It stopped and I left the display, but I never could it figure out, but it really seemed as though it had moved on it's own. There may be a "western scientific" answer, or perhaps there was something more to the piece. I do my best to keep an open mind regarding any possible explaination.

For me personally, I know we live in a modern world governed by logic and science (I'm a CAD tech by trade). On the whole, that is the direction my culture (USA) has taken, but it seems there are still some things that science doesn't have an explaination or catagory for (I have witnessed a professed medium resist fire). So take this event/encounter as you will. Mabye it was vibrations in the building that rattled just this piece because it lay on a pivot, or mabye it was saying hi. I don't know.

I would be interested if anyone is aware of any spiritual practices regarding the smithing of blades in Sulu or the Philippines (I know, that's a post for the General Forum).

Thank you all for sharing your experiences, it's allowed me to take a wider view of my own. So hey, mabye I'm not crazy after all and the thing really did move on it's own! :)

[David]

I would be interested if anyone is aware of any spiritual practices regarding the smithing of blades in Sulu or the Philippines (I know, that's a post for the General Forum).
Thank you all for sharing your experiences, it's allowed me to take a wider view of my own. So hey, mabye I'm not crazy after all and the thing really did move on it's own! :)

Hi TC. You are right, discussion of Moro kris should take place in the General Forum, though i do appreciate your shared experience here. There are, indeed, spiritual practices associated with these blades, though sorting them out often seems even more difficult that with the Indo keris.
I certainly do not doubt your exprience, though even i, with much experience with the metaphysical, would be more inclined to attribute this to a building vibration first. But who know, eh? :shrug:
Please feel free to start up a similar thread in the General Forum on your experience. I would be interested in the responses there. :)

[BluErf]

I have always enjoyed reading about the non-material aspect of kerises, though somehow, I just can't remember much of them to retell them to others. :)

On the vibration of the kris from time-to-time, I can't help but recall a particular meeting room in the building that I work in. The window panes would rattle whenever a truck drives by. Many a visitor would ask - "Was that an earthquake?". :) I guess the meeting room was situated at the exact spot where vibrations converge.

[David]

Conduits of vibration can be very peculiar sometimes... :shrug: :)
Again, i don't mean to discount the metaphysical, but i also think it is very important to look at all the possible natural phenomenon possibilities first. There are many and they are not always so obvious. :)

[Raden Usman Djogja]

i also think it is very important to look at all the possible natural phenomenon possibilities first.

I agree with David.

However, sometimes, not to make simplification is a wise way. If we face two situation in the same time which each one is very logic, it is up to our willingness to relate or unrelate those phenomenon.

For example, yesterday, someone got promotion. It was logic because he was a harworker and had been working very weel. Yesterday, he got telephone from Keris smith informing that his commissioned keris had been finished. It was logic because he commissioned a Keris 2 two year ago and, at that time, the smith had had promised that the Keris would be finished 2 year later.

Then, it is free choice for him to think whether it is a sign or not regarding with the "power" of his new Keris.

[David]

Then, it is free choice for him to think whether it is a sign or not regarding with the "power" of his new Keris.
Yep, sometimes it's all just a matter of how you look at the world.
Yet even those of us who adopt a magickal world view also realize that making things happen in our lives is often the fruit of much hard work. I remember once attending a workshop on sigil working. A sigil is a symbol, like a seal, that is created for a specific magickal purpose. One guy in the workshop asked if there was some special sigil one could use to help him get a job. The instuctor thought for a moment and then told the guy "Yes, it's called a resumé!" ;) :D

[A. G. Maisey]

May I congratulate you, Raden, upon achieving your desire to own a keris by Empu Djeno.

You know, it would not surprise me if many more people who ordered keris prior to Empu Djeno's return to his Father's House recieved news that their orders had been finished prior to Empu Djeno's departure.It is even possible that all keris ordered from Empu Djeno were finished long ago, and the only reason for delay in delivery has been because of the time taken to dress these blades in a suitable fashion.

Regarding the fire at the Keraton Surakarta Hadiningrat in 1985.

For some time, prior to this fire , Sinuhun had not infrequently remarked to his close friends that he was disappointed that he had reached the evening of his life, but he still had not built a keraton of his own.

The length of time that a Javanese keraton is allowed to stand is traditionally recognised as 100 years.

Bearing in mind these two facts, one must question whether the power of the pusakas was to prevent the destruction of a keraton that had already outlived its allotted span, or whether the power was one of renewal to assist in creation of a new keraton.

[Lei Shen Dao]

When I asked young smith Sungkowo whether there is different between keris used meteorite pamor and nickel pamor regarding with its strength of "power". He answered "most probably, yes, there is."

Hi

Considering the meteorite and the "power" of a keris, I know that a keris must have meteorite in order to keep in it the power/spirit of the empu.

A spirit is consider a yin thing in most cases. The meteorite, is also of yin quality coming from space...So there is a need for a yin material to have a yin spirit in it.

From what I've heard in the past, there is a need for a keris to be powerful, to include meteorite inside. Otherwise, there is no spirit in it.

Best

[Raden Usman Djogja]

or whether the power was one of renewal to assist in creation of a new keraton.

Alan,

it is new info for me. very fruitful. thank you very much.
sometimes, we get the truth longafter we concluded it. and too many times truth and conclusion differ.

[A. G. Maisey]

Raden, I am not stating a truth, for I do not know what is the truth.

I am merely proposing an alternative way of looking at an event which did occur and that at the time of its occurrence was surrounded with mystery and rumour.

[David]

Hi

Considering the meteorite and the "power" of a keris, I know that a keris must have meteorite in order to keep in it the power/spirit of the empu.

A spirit is consider a yin thing in most cases. The meteorite, is also of yin quality coming from space...So there is a need for a yin material to have a yin spirit in it.

From what I've heard in the past, there is a need for a keris to be powerful, to include meteorite inside. Otherwise, there is no spirit in it.

Best
Can you reference this information to any known old writings or authority. I have never heard this before, that only a keris with meteorite in it can hold a spirit. I also have yet to see any provable reference to meteorite being used before the Prambanan fall in the mid 18th century. I have searched records and can find no known iron bearing meteorite fall in Jawa before the Prambanan fall. And this is a subject we have really discussed in some depth here in the past with no reliable evidence ever coming to the surface. I would like to see substantiated claims for this kind of information. Unsubstantiated claims only perpetuate these myths about meteorite use and bring us no closer to the truth of the matter.
Personally i would like to believe that what you are claiming here is true, but i get tired of seeing these types of claims repeated again and again with no real evidence to back them up. :shrug:

[Lei Shen Dao]

Personally i would like to believe that what you are claiming here is true, but i get tired of seeing these types of claims repeated again and again with no real evidence to back them up.

Hi

I can understand your point.

However, I never said that I am a specialist in keris affairs....

I am just quoting what I have heard in the past and even now, by some people from Java and Surabaya, people who I estimate and respect a lot, for their opinion in matters like these. People who handle, thousands of keris literally, and live with these objects for many years knowing every single aspect of keris. They are considered experts in this field and the most important is that they don't make a living from selling keris, so their knowledge is completely "clean" if I may say.

I just offered an explanation from another point of view. Everyone is free to believe it or not. It is just another opinion.

I am not just a collector of keris (I only have 4 keris and one tombak, so not too much of a collector yet, I guess :o ).
I am interested into the metaphysics, so I see this aspect of keris culture with a genuine interest.

If someone here has an experience concerning the power of a keris, does he have also to prove his claims or to indicate some kind of source? I don't think so.
This is the same with me (please keep in mind that I could share stories too, but I choose not to do so, out of respect to such sensitive matters).

There were meteorites before Prambanan. Small ones in villages and in the wild, or from trading with other countries like China for example and the list goes on. Small meteorites fall all the time in the planet.
Prambanan just happened to have good "public relations" :D

Best

[David]

If someone here has an experience concerning the power of a keris, does he have also to prove his claims or to indicate some kind of source? I don't think so.

If someone is relating a personal experience here there is no need to ask for the source of the information. It is a first person experince so the source is obvious. I then have the choice of believing them or not.
When someone relates knowledge or experience that is not their own i feel perfectly comfortable asking them where they heard or read such a thing. I then also have the choice of believing the source or not.
Many things are said about the keris, some true and some not. Some are provable and some are not. I have no doubt that there are even things we will never be able to prove about the keris that are still likely to be true regardless. ;) :)
Still, i see no point in blindly accepting unsubstantiated statements without questioning both the source and the content of such statements. You may choose to disregard the questions, but i certainly mean no disrespect in asking them. :)

[Raden Usman Djogja]

in late 1990s, local newspaper reported there was small meteorite fallen down in Temanggung county, Central Java. Soon after that, I aimed to go there. Unfortunely, my acquintance informed that there was no meteorite anymore. The biggest one was occupied by the local government. The smaller debris were for "first come first get".

not really pararel with Lei Shen Dao story:

For some Indonesian people whenever they face serious problem, it is quite common, till nowadays, they do meditate in certain area which believed sacred place. For example, in mountain, beach, jungle, tomb et cetera. Then, quite common fairytails, they are satisfied if during their meditation finding someting, for instance: stone (either raw stone or already "akik" shape), wood, keris. For them, those thing are pusakas or jimat.

Yes of course, 99% of cases are fakes. Why, because generally in doing meditation, there is Dukun involvement. Seemingly, Dukun has thousand ways to deceive his clients.

Now, lets consider with the 1% which really happen. If we read the biography of Sultan HB IX of Yagyakarta, in certain chapter there is explanation of spiritual experience. Especially, in the early period of Indonesian independence. Yes, for me, I simply tend to believe on HB IX statement because he did not need to make "imaginative stories" for his fame. No need at all. So it was written so it was happened.

Okay, to sum up, I would like to raise a premise here. Was there any possibility someone finding a small meteorite during his meditation in the mountain? Then, he gave that meteorite to Empu for his commisoned keris.

[David]

Okay, to sum up, I would like to raise a premise here. Was there any possibility someone finding a small meteorite during his meditation in the mountain? Then, he gave that meteorite to Empu for his commisoned keris.

Of course such a thing is possible and may very well have happened...but one should also keep in mind that not every piece of rock that falls from the sky would be the type of iron/nickel meteorite needed to make the proper pamor material. In fact, most meteorites would be useless for the process. Still, perhaps someone found a small piece of the right stuff and had a powerful keris made with it. Where did the next piece come from....and the next? Because if it is true that only meteorite can create a powerful keris with spirit one has to wonder where all that meteorite came from, enough to make enough powerful, spirit filled keris that it became the only way to make a spirit-filled keris. Certainly people would have me believe that while every keris is not a "powerful" keris there are enough of them out there to sustain the myth. If not powerful then at least ones that hold spirit. So where did the meteorite come from for all those kraton keris pusaka made before the Prambanan fall. For just those keris alone that's a lot of a fairly rare material to come up with from meditating on a hill top. Were any spirit-filled keris made outside the kraton? It's even a lot of material if you include trading, even if it is a material the Chinese or some other culture would be willing to trade. I am not saying that it is not possible that it happened. But i would love to find just one grain of evidence. Some old Chinese trade records perhaps. Some old Javanese writings that mention the use of meteorite in pre-Prambanan keris. AFAIK no such records exist. :shrug:
Please forgive me if i sound a little frustrated when discussing this subject. It is just that we have been around and round on the meteorite issue many times before with very little resolution. I highly recommend that the new members here take the time to use the search feature for both this and the old forum to see where we have already been on this subject. Try "meteorite keris" as your keywords. :)

[Boedhi Adhitya]

in late 1990s, local newspaper reported there was small meteorite fallen down in Temanggung county, Central Java. Soon after that, I aimed to go there. Unfortunely, my acquintance informed that there was no meteorite anymore. The biggest one was occupied by the local government. The smaller debris were for "first come first get"..

Even if you got it, Mas Usman, you cannot forge a keris from the Temanggung meteorite, since it was a stony-type meteorite. If I don't mistaken, only 10% of the fall are iron-type meteorite. The best meteorite for pamor material should contains around 10% nickel.

As David mentioned, no reliable evidence nor record that keris' pamor was made from meteorite before the fall of Prambanan Meteorite. Some old books describe many kind of iron, with it's characteristic and it's origin which sometimes refers to region like Kamboja (Campuchea) or Sailan (Ceylon) or mythological origin, but none could be interpreted as originated 'from the sky'. If the meteorite is very powerful, then the most powerful blade should be the old Eskimos/Inuit knives, as it was made from 100% meteorite iron. (before the remaining meteorite was 'stolen', of course).

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/C/Cape_York_meteorite.html
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/permanent/meteorites/what/capeyork.php

The most common/familiar scientific study on keris/pamor materials for Indonesian keris lovers is the work of Haryono Arumbinang. If his non-destructive chemical analysis valid, we (and he also) conclude that the old blades (if his dating method, which rely on Tangguh, reliable) always contain iron (Fe) and Titanium (Ti) and no Nickel (Ni) content. On the contrary, the nem-neman blades always contain Ni and no Ti. As the iron meteorite should contains some Ni, then we could conclude from Arumbinang's work (despite of Arumbinang's conclusion), no old blade was made/mixed with iron from meteorite. And those which contains Ni is not necessarily made from meteorite iron neither.


For nickel contents in iron meteorites :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_meteorite

[David]

Thanks Boedhi, interesting links.
Here is just one of the many discussions we have had in the past on these forums about the subject of meteorite in keris pamor. I would recommend everyone interested give it a good read (or re-read :) ) and also search and read all the other numerous threads on the subject so that hopefully we can bring some new information to the table. :)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=269&page=1&pp=30&highlight=keris+meteorite

[Raden Usman Djogja]

AFAIK no such records exist. :shrug:
Please forgive me if i sound a little frustrated when discussing this subject. It is just that we have been around and round on the meteorite issue many times before with very little resolution. I highly recommend that the new members here take the time to use the search feature for both this and the old forum to see where we have already been on this subject. Try "meteorite keris" as your keywords. :)

David,

yes, you are right. there is lack of written evidence, especially scientific/objective written evidence. even today, written recording is not usual yet. yeah... simply related to the culture of society. the knowlegde of oldsmith transferred orally to youngsmith. why? to many explanation: illiteracy, culture, secret recipe, delegitimation and so on. this realm happens not only in keris field but also in other field which involving magical aspects.

I can understand if discussing the same topic again and again and again has disturbed you. Lets move further. Leave meteorite issue because it is part of the past. How about spirit? If it is an old one, too... so lets stop this topic and change with a new one. Any new issue offer?... or just go to the other thread... something new and interesting there...21st century dapur.

Usmen

[David]

Well Usmen, i don't think the idea of meteorite used in keris pamor is a matter of secrecy. The idea is far too common in the general keris consciousness to be meant as a secret.
I am also not "disturbed" by the discussion, but i do think that it is important to understand just how deeply we have covered this subject. I have linked to just one 5 page thread on the subject and there are many more. They are all a good and interesting read and i highly recommend that if you have not already tackled the task (yes, there is a lot of reading :eek: ) that you and others do take the time to see where we have been and what has been discussed. It is not my desire to stop the discussion here. I just don't want to see it get bogged down in the same old pitfalls.
You suggest that we leave the subject in the past and talk about spirit, but we are talking about meteorite now in relation to spirit so it really is relavent to this thread. Hopeful we can, if not now, then perhaps someday, cross new territory on this subject that will enlighten us all. :)

[Lei Shen Dao]

You may choose to disregard the questions, but i certainly mean no disrespect in asking them.

David

No problem. I know that you mean no disrespect and of course I don't disregard your questions.

I just happened to know the opinion of some people from this part of the world (the keris land :) ) and I thought it was good to sare with you.

I respect their wish for anonymity, so I guess this makes my statements dubious. I hope not too much though. :)

Best

[David]

I just happened to know the opinion of some people from this part of the world (the keris land :) ) and I thought it was good to sare with you.


Opinions are always welcome here i would never automatically dismiss them. However, i don't like to see opinions presented as fact. What we believe and what we know are not always the same thing. What we believe might well be true, but without evidence we can never be sure. I do not disbelieve your statements about meteorite and keris, but even if you were to name the honorable people who hold the same opinion it would still remain a belief that none of us can claim to know for sure. :)
So no, your statements aren't too dubious. :D

[A. G. Maisey]

David, what I shall now write is not intended as disagreement with the position you have put, it is just another way of looking at "truth".

If you have enough people believing that something is true, then it becomes so.

I've heard a story a couple of times that might be worth repeating.

It would seem that in old Hawaii the local priest of dukun or whatever they call them in Hawaii, would go down to the eastern shore before sunrise and make an offering to ensure that the sun would rise.
The proof of the effectiveness of his ministrations was that the sun rose.

If the people believed this, it was true for those people.

If we believe that we can influence anything by some action or other, and enough people believe that, then for these people, that becomes true. If the desired effect comes to pass, then it has proven that what was done to achieve that effect worked. If it does not come to pass, then the fault must lay with our performance of the ritual---or maybe God simply has a bigger plan, and could not permit it to happen.

Truth is a bit like history---get enough people believing something, and it becomes true.

Who would ever argue with the "truths" of any major religion?

Certainly not I.

[Lei Shen Dao]

What we believe and what we know are not always the same thing

David

You are absolutely wright about that.
I should write the word believe or heard and not the word know ;) .

My English language skills aren't good enough. Sometimes this is a big problem conserning the meaning of what I would like to say or write...

[David]

If we believe that we can influence anything by some action or other, and enough people believe that, then for these people, that becomes true. If the desired effect comes to pass, then it has proven that what was done to achieve that effect worked. If it does not come to pass, then the fault must lay with our performance of the ritual---or maybe God simply has a bigger plan, and could not permit it to happen.

Truth is a bit like history---get enough people believing something, and it becomes true.

Well Alan, i think you know me well enough by now to know (or maybe just believe ;) ) that i have a pretty good understanding of this theory and have, in fact, seen it in action. Seperate realities is a common tool in my personal spiritual practice and i am not trying to throw stones at anyone elses glass houses. :) I am not quite convinced that it completely applies in this example though. If i believe a keris is powerful and can help me gain an end to a need or desire and that end does, indeed, come about i might then attribute the power to that keris and that may well be my "truth". I certainly wouldn't agrue this type of "truth" with anyone. Now i might believe that the essence of this power is held within the keris only because of it's meteorite content. Well, i know the end result came about and it would be awful difficult for anyone to prove that that keris wasn't in some way involved in that outcome. However, if i were, in the cause of science, to destroy that keris to try to find that meteorite content (something i would never dream of doing BTW :eek: ) and found no nickel content or even titanium what then? I may have believed that this keris had meteorite in it but it didn't. It was never "true" even though i thought it was. What would probably still be "true" for me in this hypothetical example is that this keris still has power. Afterall, my end result did come about. That would be an unchangable "fact". Of course, if this were an actual occurence, it would now be "my truth" that a keris does not need meteorite to be powerful. :)
In terms of history i see even less use for this theory. When enough people (usually the victors) believe that a moment or era in history occurred in a particular way (even if it didn't happen that way at all but it makes these victors look much better by their way of thinking) i would rather call that an "injustice" than a "truth". I may choose to be diplomatic to with these peoples rewriting of history or depending on the level of the injustice i might feel obliged to stand on the nearest hill top and shout "Liar!" at the top of my lungs. Remember, i am an American and have many years of experience living in a country that has a nasty habit of skewing it's history to reflect the glory of the Homeland. :rolleyes: :D

[A. G. Maisey]

Well David, if you're going to force me to get down into the specifics of meteorites in keris, rather than wander all over the interesting and unstable ground of human perception, I will be as specific as I know how.

I know of only two keris that definitely have meteorite in them.
I know this because I forged the meteorite, and I was present when it was used.

I possess one tombak that according the Javanese parameters used to identify the maker, and the material , contains meteorite, according to those parameters.

I possess one keris that according to those same parameters also probably contains meteorite.

However, I have seen and handled many keris that according to respected Javanese authorities , applying the same parameters but only in respect of material, definitely contain meteorite.

These Javanese authorities know that my tombak, my keris, and the many others to which I refer above contain meteorite. They know it because they have absolute faith in their system and their knowledge.

On the other hand I am of little faith (and will undoubtedly go straight to hell) so I only know of two blades that contain meteorite:- the two I was involved in the manufacture of.

My truth is a little different from the truth of these other people.

My profession stands on a foundation of ensuring that certain things are in fact true.But after spending most of my life giving the thumbs up, or the thumbs down to various aspects of the truth, I have come to the rather non-committed position that anything is only as true as our knowledge and opinion, at any point in time, permits it to be.

[David]

My profession stands on a foundation of ensuring that certain things are in fact true.But after spending most of my life giving the thumbs up, or the thumbs down to various aspects of the truth, I have come to the rather non-committed position that anything is only as true as our knowledge and opinion, at any point in time, permits it to be.
You'll get no argument from me there. :)

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Firstly, according to Keris and spirit, the discussion is focused on the use of meteorite. Is it a legend or not? Is there any impact to the power of keris? Does the "believe" of meteorite use give advantage or disadvantage for keris? I hope the conclusion is decided by each discussant since the aim of discussion is to share and to broaden our knowledge of keris. I do hope we can postpone for a while about "meteorite". There is still a neglected issue: TAYUH.

Secondly, if talking about spirit of Keris (Tosan Aji), we are familiar with the word "Nayuh/Tayuh/ (please translate into English, dear)". Does any kerislover have idea/experience/story about TAYUH/NAYUH/TAYUHAN? I do hope, from now, we can share and discuss about TAYUH/NAYUH/TAYUHAN.

Lets begin...

Usman

[David]

Usman, i appreciate your enthusiasm for discussion on the spiritual aspects of the keris. It is a topic that is indeed very close to my heart. I would suggest that if you want to have this discussion that you just begin yourself and see what follows. If you wait for others to begin you might have to wait for some time. ;) :)
Tayuh as i understand it is a practice used in Kejawen to determine things through metaphysical means: past or future, find lost items, determine causes and cures for disease, etc. Please correct me if i am wrong. :)
The keris can and has been used as a tool to facilate this process. While i believe that tayuh can be discussed in a much larger extent not necessarily specific to keris, i would suggest that for the sake of topic and context that try to focus the discussion on tayuh only as it relates to the keris itself...but perhaps that is not possible. :shrug:

[Raden Usman Djogja]

David,

yes, tayuh covers many aspects in javanese life. to narrowing the discussion, perhaps, it is better as you mention only as it relates to the keris itself.

usually, in Djogja, I saw people held keris and closed their eyes. Soon after that, they metioned about something related to the origin and the use of keris.

several times, I tested person who was believed having sixth sense. It did not matter whether I believed or not at that time about their abilities. My concern was to test the use of keris to person who did not learn lots about keris.

Then, I brought a keris, e.g period tuban, shape tilam upih, ornamen raja abala raja / top point of mountains. Amazing me, some people could explain the use of keris and "time-made" as Bambang Harsrinuksmo wrote in his ensiklopedia. Then, it raised a question why they could explain the use of keris... even they did not know the name of its pamor. there must be another way to understand keris. Is it NAYUH?

What did I still not believe them, whenever they metioned about the name of ghost lived inside, e.g. kiai tunggul wulung. It was only his imagination becuase, I hoped, if it's true, the name should be either Kiai Magelhaens or Nyai Wilhelmina. Just kidding my dear.

Usman

[Lei Shen Dao]

Considering the pamor related powers, I've heard form some people that a specific pamor doesn't allways indicate only one "power".
For example a was wutah keris is best known for his "good luck" quallities to the owner but it could be for "pengayoman" (protection and saccor) also.

There are some cases that I have encounter about keris that were made for more than one "purpose" for their owners (and I am not speaking for keris with two pamors etc, in this case), I know of an old maduranese blade ;) (very strong and for fighting) made for a warrior with the purpose of "coming back safe from the battle" and it has pamor was wutah. This keris is not for general protection or for protecting the family of the warrior, but it was strictly for the warrior in battle. Maduranese people were mostly poor those days, so a was wutah pamor was ideal for someone to have a good luck in general. But the empu could "issue" another power in the blade not so obvious for other people than the owner himself.

Have you ever heard something similar?

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Yes, I heard similiar. Even, a talisman ever said that his keris could use for everything (it sounds generalist). However, imho, one tool uses effectively to solve one problem. But, if it can solve another problem,imho, it is a bonus. For instance, the main function of car is for transportation. A ferrari can function both for transportation and for prestige... or for other purposes.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

revision:

not a talisman but a person who "make" talisman. What is he called in English? (the native, please)

[HanaChu69]

Hi Usman & fellow keris collectors

I enjoyed reading all the stories and sharing session. I have my fair share of weird happenings but this recent incident has got me thinking if there’s any relation to one of my keris. Sometime early this year, my mom mentioned that she saw the back of an old man wearing all white “jubah” (gown) loitering around my hall corridor during midnight. She was on the verge of going to the ladies but changed her mind. I told her that it was nothing and was just fragment of her imagination.

A week later, I was on my way to work and surprisingly saw the old man earlier mentioned by my mom. I was shocked because he smelt so strongly of my keris oil which I bought from Adni (MAG). Is it a co-incidence or what? The best part was he was wearing black sunglasses. He was small built about 1.5m in height and has white hair wearing all white “jubah” (gown). He appeared a while and later on vanished among the crowd. The next day, I smelt my keris oil again lingering for a few minutes before it vanished through the thin air.

From that day onwards, I began to hide pictures of my two patrems from Kampungnet viewers. I’m not sure of the significance. Is he angry with me for sharing the pictures? I’m trying to communicate and asked for the reason through prayers definitely. Hmm…don’t get the wrong idea. I’m not asking for miracles or lottery numbers for I’m not a gambler but in creating a rapport. I believe that he lives in his world and I live in mine. I strongly believe that you must not be a slave to the spirit but mutual respect for each other if we were to co-exist in this world.

Truthfully,
HanaChu69

[Mans]

Hi Usman & fellow keris collectors
.................
I’m not asking for miracles or lottery numbers for I’m not a gambler but in creating a rapport. I believe that he lives in his world and I live in mine. I strongly believe that you must not be a slave to the spirit but mutual respect for each other if we were to co-exist in this world.

Truthfully,
HanaChu69
Hi Hana,
Good opinion to keep the faith, and must be keep at our mind and heart :)

[Newsteel]

Hi Hana,
Just like Mans advice, keep it good.

Lucky you the khadam (genie) want to show himself. Interesting if you got to know he is the quardian to which keris (of all the 3 patrems of yours). As usual, this khadam will not speak to us.

[HanaChu69]

Hi Mans & Newsteel

Thank you for the useful advice. I will always bear in mind to keep the faith for I trust my instinct. For your info, I have more than three patrems but not all are being shown in my keris album. I guess I will have to find out the missing piece to my version of jigsaw puzzle.

Regards,
HanaChu69

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Hi Usman & fellow keris collectors

Sometime early this year, my mom mentioned that she saw the back of an old man wearing all white “jubah” (gown) loitering around my hall corridor during midnight.

A week later, I was on my way to work and surprisingly saw the old man earlier mentioned by my mom. I was shocked because he smelt so strongly of my keris oil which I bought from Adni (MAG).
Truthfully,
HanaChu69

Hana,

Not only you but also your mom had the same experience.

Several times people told me spiritual experiences related with keris. I believed some stories and doubted any other ones. In your case, I believe it. Why? Because two person without any appointement have seen similiar image.

Perhaps, you can use three different oils for your each different patrem. Then, let you feel what happens after. I do hope, sooner or later, you will be able to distinguish your patrems.

I will share experience to you.
Long time ago, I watched late Empu Djeno on local TV interview. He said about his spiritual experiences during his career as Empu. One of stories was he saw a big snake in his studio just before making special keris.

Months later, I went to his home to ask about the special keris he mentioned in the interview. He said that that special keris was used as family pusaka (never ever for sale).

Just month ago, late Empu Djeno's nephew, young Keris smith Sungkowo, delivered my commissioned kerises (actually, I commissioned to Empu DJeno 2 or 3 years ago). Before delivering those kerises, I requested to Empu Sungkowo to bring that special keris when he delivered kerises to my home. He stayed a night in my home sweet home.

One day later. Three people who coincidentlly coming in my home had a unique experience. Two of them saw a snake whilst one of them didnt. Unbelievable to them why one amongst them could not see it. All of them did not know what happened in my home one day before.

Till now, I still try to get the meaning from the story I have told you already.

Usman

[HanaChu69]

Hi Usman,

I was thinking if it’s true that these “Khadam” (spiritual being) will appear to those selected ones only. What a co-incidence that two of your guests saw the snake exception for the third. It was almost similar to that of mine i.e. my mom and I. Lucky no.2 I guess?? I hope the others who have stories to share could shed some light to this theory.

The above experience has caught me by surprise. Imagine, it was around 10am and I was deep in thought when it happened. I was thinking of outstanding to do list and walking towards my destination (This is my usual habit in the morning). Suddenly I smell the familiar keris oil that triggered me to turn my head to have a quick glance to find its source. I saw the back white hair of an old man in white standing next to a pillar. Nothing extraordinary registered through my mind so I keep on walking. At estmated 10 meters away, I seek out the old man this time out of curiosity because he was not one of those usual familiar faces. He had his side profile facing me but slowly turned to face me directly showing his true physical form (black sunglasses and white “jubah”). He must have felt that I was staring so hard at him. My guess was he was more than 80 years old which I derived due to shrinkage in bone density, unusually very fair and pale exactly like a walking corpse. I quickly looked away for I don’t make a habit staring at men in general. Within seconds, my memory snapped for I remembered my mom’s description of the old man the week before. I turned around in search of the old man again but he simply vanished. I really regret my action for I should have talk to him or kept him within sight. It could be because I was in a stage of shock as in “unbelievable”…

Oh..Thank you for your kind suggestion. In fact, I have the initial idea of concocting different scents for all my patrems but it is still in progress.

Btw, is it possible for you to elaborate on the snake part? How did it appear? Could it be guardian of your new commissioned kerises or from the special keris that Empu Sungkowo brought along with him? I pray and hope that you will find the answers to the meaning of your story too…Best of luck!!

HanaChu69

[David]

Hana, i think you will be seeing your old gentleman again. I seems you have unfinished business. ;)

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Hi Usman,

Btw, is it possible for you to elaborate on the snake part? How did it appear? Could it be guardian of your new commissioned kerises or from the special keris that Empu Sungkowo brought along with him? I pray and hope that you will find the answers to the meaning of your story too…Best of luck!!

HanaChu69

Hana,

Seemingly, I cannot elaborate it at this moment. Because, now, I am in Africa and the actual appearence was in Indonesia. I just got info when I phoned my parents. It is hard to analyse if just getting information through telephone.
Anyway, thank you for praying and hoping that I will find the meaning of it.

Okay... I agree with David.... about your unfinished business".

Usman

[HanaChu69]

Hi David & Usman

Please enlighten me with your comments on “unfinished business”…If you asked me I will say it will be my contingency plans. What shall be my next step? I guess it will be a long and tedious process.

Actually, I have consulted two pioneer keris experts. One wouldn’t want to give me any comments. The other gave me the same comment like Newsteel and that it is “my rezeki” (good luck). Well…I sure hope so… :D

While waiting for more eagerly waited stories, can we proceed and continue with the “tayuh” and “nayuh”. I’m sure it will be very interesting discussion if there’s more participation from the other members as well.

Truly,
Hana

P.S – I hold great respect for our fellow members who are not well-versed in the English language but they make an effort to participate in our “warung kopi”. No worries, I’m fine as long as I can grasp the concept and the correct understanding. Keep up the good work!!

[David]

Please enlighten me with your comments on “unfinished business”…
I say this because just his mere appearance is meaningless. It seems to me that more communication is necessary to find out why he is appearing to you and your mother. You said it yourself, you should have talked to him. If the message he is trying to communicate isn't clear then the business is obvoiusly "unfinished". Hopefully you will get another chance to find out what this is all about. :)

[PenangsangII]

Hana,

Pls be careful when dealing the genie khadam. If the keris is your rightful pusaka, then I believe "he" was trying to communicate with you, then you'll have to undergo certain ritual to communicate with him.

OTOH, if the keris was acquired thru purchase, pls check with the seller (whom I believe is very knowledgable in the physical & spiritual aspects of the keris) before initiating any communication with the khadam.

Remember, the more lives the keris had taken previously, the stronger khadam would be, and there's possibility that "he" is evil. So, again, please be careful!!

[HanaChu69]

Greetings everyone

David - I have to disagree that “his mere appearance is meaningless”. Some of them would want acknowledgement that they do exist and living around you. As usual these “khadam” will not speak to us and communication with them comes in form of dreams or through a medium.

PenangsangII – Appreciate your concern and thank you. I have no special ritual as my method to scan my kerises individually by means of prayers (hajat & istiharah). I do not seek help from a medium which I find against my principle. That’s why I say it will be tedious process. The answer will not be immediate and will take some time. At least there’s some guidance for further actions.

Regards,
HanaChu69

P.S - Your name sound familiar and are you Penangsang from Kgnt?

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Hi David & Usman

.... please enlighten me with your comments on “unfinished business”…
While waiting for more eagerly waited stories, can we proceed and continue with the “tayuh” and “nayuh”. I’m sure it will be very interesting discussion if there’s more participation from the other members as well.

Truly,
Hana

P.S – ... fellow members who are not well-versed in the English language ....

dear Hana,

emm... my english is not well-versed. but, hopefully, you can grasp the idea and, please, correct and revise my written statement then send through individual message. At the end of the day, I do want to master in English.

about "unfinished business", instead of enlightening you, I want to discuss with you since I dont have any means to enlight other.

Keris has always odd curves. Theoritically or "pakem"ly or normally, there is no keris with even curves. According to my sources, the reason why a keris must have odd curves is because the empu make a keris for a special purpose (there is no keris for general purpose to solve all kind of problem). It means whenever there is a keris, there should be an unfinished business. Whenever the problem has been fixed, It is even then a keris will go somewhere else by thousand causes. There is a keris, there is a mission. The mission must be good both in process and result.

Now, you have patrems (small kerises). You and your mother faced unique appearances. I dont know about "khadam"... then I will not use term of "khadam" in my elaboration. Whenever you fill in a dvd in its player and switch on the television then you watch so many appearance on TV, nothing wonder you. It should be normal too, if you watch, feel or hear "a thing" whenever you occupy a "real" keris. Perhaps, the appearance from keris makes wonder because there in no standard process or scientific explanation yet on how it works.

By facing appearence, there will be 2 possibilities. Fisrt, there is a problem before and the appearance is just like a reminder. Second, there is no problem before and the appearance creates new motivation. Both situation will be end on "unfinished business".

Now, instead of to communicate with your keris, it is more important to communicate with yourself first. In which part of yourlife that you feel "unfinished" or in which part of your live you will create a new mission.... after you have a vision. Only after you finish to communicate to yourself, up to you if you want to continue to communicate with your keris in a way you have already believed. One by one and step by step in doing with a keris.

Usman

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Hana,

I spent 4 months in S'pore in 1996. At that time, I lived in Kent Ridge Hall, Lower Kent Ridge Road (near Clementi) and studied at 4th semester (a semester) in NUS. Lovely S'pore.

Usman

[David]

Yes Hana, perhaps "meaningless" was too strong a word, but as Usman suggests, the appearance is not an end or a solution and perhaps signifies further action to be taken on your part. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Usman, you have told us several times that your understanding of keris is minimal. Perhaps it is, perhaps it is not. I don't know. But your understanding of the way in which communication with the unseen world functions is clear.The answer to hanachu's questions are within himself:- he must first understand himself and then his answer will present itself.How to go into our own soul? Different things work for different people. Possibly the right teacher or guide might help.

[PenangsangII]

Hanachu, yes, I'm the same penangsang :D .

I have to agree with Alan, a teacher's guidance is very necessary.

According to traditional belief, a mere appearance is a sign that "he" needs feeding..... ;)

[David]

According to traditional belief, a mere appearance is a sign that "he" needs feeding..... ;)
This is an interesting observation, but Hana made the connection to the old man with his keris because with his appearance came the strong scent of keris oil so it would seem that Hana is probably dilligent in the feeding of his keris. :shrug:

[PenangsangII]

From what I was told, that keris was bought from Adni of MAG. I happen to own 2 kerises bought from Adni and I can tell for certain that the kerises still smell with "one kind of smell" i.e. keris oil eventhough after I cleaned them up using lime and sometimes wd40. Thru discussion in another forum, I was told that some oil residue is actually sticking on the inner part of the sarungs. I dont have to scent my keris with the special oil, and still my kerises have the scent.

Another thing to consider is that from my limited knowkedge in keris caretaking according to the traditional method, the khadam feed on incense / benzoine smoke, which I believe Hana would not use (due to her belief) thus the appearance on 2 separate occassions. Maybe there's another way of feeding that is not against her belief that other forumites can suggest?

[David]

Yes, i have also bought a number of keris from Adni and he does, indeed, use a most pleasant keris oil on them. I have also bought the oil from him. :)
Penangsang, you seem to have more intimate dtails of Hana's situation so i will wait for Hana to add more information. Personally i both smoke and oil my keris and have always considered both acts to be a form of "feeding" the keris and it's spirit. I am not as aware of Hana's personal beliefs as you seem to be so i can not persume to suggest any alternative feeding methods.
:shrug:

[HanaChu69]

Hello everyone

It’s welcoming to hear views on this topic. I have to correct some on my gender as I’m a lady keris collector. It’s fine for I’m use to it already…no big deal. :p

Usman – I’m sure you will master the English Language some day. As for the dvd, I will email you to double confirm on my understanding. I have to agree that the appearance of the “khadam” is an indication that there was a problem before and the second was like a reminder. I will work on the “unfinished business” and hopefully solve them soon. Can I know where did you get your resources? How do you address the “khadam” in your native tongue? Btw, thanks for the compliment on my country and I hope you will visit us again some day.

David – It’s fine and I’m working on the “unfinished business” thus working out on further actions. Btw, I don’t smoke the kerises but diligently oil them as preventive measure against rust. As for Penangsang intimate detail on my situation, I would say that we both share similar ancestral profile – his on paternal and mine on maternal. As such, he understands my principles and beliefs as to why I omitted certain rituals.

Pak Alan – With your many years of experience in Javanese culture, is possible for you to elaborate on “he must first understand himself and then his answer will present itself.How to go into our own soul?”.

Penangsang – Welcome as we are both new to this forum. Btw, how do you derive the appearance as a sign that he needs feeding? It’s good to get the right teacher to guide but it seem that they kept a lot to themselves without wanting to share. Furthermore, there might even be conflict of interest on my part so I rather stick to my method.

Truthfully,
HanaChu69

[PenangsangII]

Greetings,

Hana, the possibility that the spirit is hungry is also "unfinished business" that literally means you have not fed him accordingly and periodically. I think you also understand when somebody come into contact with his/her dead ancestors thru dreams, it's sign that the ancestors are "hungry", hence special prayers (tahlil) is conducted by the immediate family members. I believe that treating the "the hungry khadam" also works in this principle though the way / ritual is different.

However, since you have indicated that you know about your "unfinished business" after some soul searching, my "hungry khadam" analogy is no longer relevant :) .

Regarding the silent teacher/s, perhaps you should learn how to approach them without making it so obvious that you need to ask something. These teachers are analyzing you before teaching you anything as heavy as spiritual being subject for obvious reasons....

Mr Sepokal....if you are reading this, pls help. ;)

[HanaChu69]

Greetings everyone,

I have decided to confine my findings via email and PM. Spiritual world is indeed very sacred and I do respect some who prefer being anonymous.

Usman – Do revert on my email. Thanks once again for the clarification on the mission and “unfinished business”.

Pak Alan – Thank you very much for the sound advice via PM. I really appreciate it.

Penangsang – I understand your concern for I’m aware that dealing with “pusako” is less risky than the unknown keris spirit. I’m at a disposition having two contrasting “pusako” with different customs and rituals. Btw, Mr. Sepokal has offered his help in establishing my paternal “pusako” but not keris related. I am in contact with him and will approach him should I require further help. For the meanwhile, I will take my time in communicating with all my kerises.

Oh..can we proceed with topics on “tayuh’ and “nayuh’ please….

Sincerely,
HanaChu69

P.S – Apologized to Mans, Usman and the others who chatted halfway and get cut off. There’s seemed to be some problem with my laptop & network connection... :shrug:

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Oh..can we proceed with topics on “tayuh’ and “nayuh’ please….

Sincerely,
HanaChu69
[/I]

Hana,

if I am not mistaken...em...after reading old threads I have a conclusion that a lot of waroeng kopi attendances have very deep understanding of keris.... more than expected before. It means that "tayuh" or "nayuh" is nothing new amongst our colleagues.

I don't have any ability to "nayuh" and, perhaps, just have a little bit information about "tayuh". Based on that little information of "tayuh", it is wise to learn scientific and "pakem"ic (tangguh, sepuh, pamor, and so on) aspects of keris before learning about "tayuh" and doing "nayuh".

Why? I dont know exactly the answer. Perhaps, you must ask to our colleagues either here or by personal message.

Usman

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Hana,

I don't have any ability to "nayuh" and, perhaps, just have a little bit information about "tayuh". Based on that little information of "tayuh", it is wise to learn scientific and "pakem"ic (tangguh, sepuh, pamor, and so on) aspects of keris before learning about "tayuh" and doing "nayuh".

Usman

Hana,

to continue about "nayuh" and "tayuh" (Hana, I do really wanna know these words in english, so please translate it)

one of the greatest challenges in "nayuh" is to differentiate between the imagination and the "real message". to strengthen the ability for differentiating it, imho, it is important to have wide knowledge of keris. Pakem Keris is learnt by mind. "Nayuh" is done by heart/soul. Let mind as a good guardian of heart/soul. Without strong and capable guardian, heart/soul can be trapped nowhere but "fantasy". it is very dangerous, actually.

may I explore by an analogy:

firstly, if I have a thick book: written in the cover "ensiklopedi keris by bambang harsrinuksmo", there are pictures: keris 13 curves outside its sheath. lets imagine all of metioned above just like "tangguh/period, pamor, ricikan/detail, dhapur/model[?]" in a certain keris. these information will be used as a compass.

secondly, I would like to know inside that book. If it is real book, it is very easy, just open it then read. But lets imagine the book is a keris. To know inside, one of the ways, is by doing "nayuh". when in nayuh, I meet with robert langdon and sophie neveu, for the sake of my goodness, I must stop it immediately. Why? instead of getting "real message", I am creating "a fantasy based on dan brown's novel: da vinci code". if in the cover written "ensiklopedi keris", the book (the keris) should explain about keris (its spiritual aspects) inside.

thridly, even in "nayuh" I get images or explanations about keris, I must still need to test and retest it. sometimes, well-planned/well-organized fantasy happens.

em...thats all for now, I must take a bath and go to workplace.

Usman

[David]

Usman, you continue to show keen insights on this subject and i find your Da Vinci Code analogy to be quite good. :)
I do not believe you will find any single word in English that properly discribes nayuh or tayuh so it is probably best to work more on finding a good definition for these words and then continue to these words in the context of our conversation. :shrug:
I do understand why some may be hesitant to discuss these subjects here on the forum, however i would still like to encourage it. The subject will be taken seriously here and you should have no fear of ridicule. This is also not the type of subject that can be held up to scientific measurement and i will insist that all peoples beliefs be treated with respect and understanding. :)

[HanaChu69]

“Hana, Calling Usman..Come in Usman”…sorry, I’m very busy lah.. :(

Usman, I shall input my generic understanding on the definition of “menayuh” and “tayuh”. “Menayuh keris” is the procedure in communicating with the keris if that particular keris is fit for the owner. It can be done through dreams or a keris expert. “Tayuh” is to ask what is the mission of the respective keris, who is the “Empu” etc. It can be done only by a person who is expert in this field.

Please do correct me for I may have the wrong perception. :p

[PenangsangII]

Indeed, "menayuh" is very interesting subject but a lot of people from the keris culture would normally avoid discussing it in the open for fear of ridicule by "scientologist" or bashing by the so-called "islamist.

I used to be engaged in a fiery discussion in another forum and was insulted badly by a few forumites when putting across the traditional way of treating the keris in my collection, and the way I communicated with the keris (in this case, the guardian of the keris). From then on, I swear to myself to never again discuss keris in the spiritual context.

So Hana, please be prepared as the non traditionalists will bash you up to the maximum if you are not careful when discussing this subject. Some of them are perhaps what the other forumites termed as "ghost readers" and would definitely jump in when the situation warrants.

penangsangII

p.s. you can offer a special prayers to the person/ancestor whom you have inherited the pusaka from, then place the keris under your pillow before going to sleep.

[David]

So Hana, please be prepared as the non traditionalists will bash you up to the maximum if you are not careful when discussing this subject. Some of them are perhaps what the other forumites termed as "ghost readers" and would definitely jump in when the situation warrants.[/I]
Not on this forum they won't! "Ghost readers" may considered themselves warned! Any "bashing" of anyone's personal spiritual convictions will not be tolerated here and will be very swiftly dealt with! :mad:
Now please, let us continue the dialog... :)
BTW Penangsang, i think perhaps you meant to say "scientists" instead of "scientologists". Though i do sometime wonder what Tom Cruise and John Travolta might think about all this. ;) :)

[PenangsangII]

Thanks David, that makes me feel a lot safer. :)

Yes, I guess you are right, my bad choice of word - it should scientist, though not scientist per se. I just don't know the right word. Anyway, if you happen to meet John & Tom, please send my regards, and of course my apology :D

Sometimes I cannot understand those folks who claimed that they were also collecting keris. Being a traditional weapon that keris is, I believe, it should be treated in a traditional manner although I dont have the slightest apprehension to those who treated keris in a more modern way.

I hope the more knowledgable members can contribute on this "nayuh" subject as I believe I still have a long way to go before reaching Alan, Pak Ganja, Pangeran Datu, Raden Usman's standard and the list goes on.

[Kiai Carita]

Indeed, "menayuh" is very interesting subject but a lot of people from the keris culture would normally avoid discussing it in the open for fear of ridicule by "scientologist" or bashing by the so-called "islamist.


Dear experts,

One thing when talking about the 'inside' of a keris, we must avoid being anachronistic, by, for example, speaking of khadam in keris made by mPu before the spread of Islam in Jawa. Khadam is a concept from islamic tradition and is much younger than keris culture. According to islamic traditions, khadam -jinn slaves- can reside in anything the owner puts them in. From Aladien's lamp to a bottle.

If one studies some of the available mantras used by mPus it seems that the original idea is that the magickal power of the keris is the result of 1) The mPu's concentration and 2) the materials used in the keris.

In the case of the materials, iron and steel were in Jawa untill recently, prized metals (Lombard's theory that keris are small because the iron and steel was scarce) and the belief was that within the metals, there is sakti.

Offerings to sakti objects also change through time. In Dutch times, often an offering would require opium. Now you can only get fake opium (you can't get a high from it) in traditional flower sellers in Solo / Yogya, and the sakti / spirits don't use it anymore. Alcohol was also a popular offering to sakti / spirits, and after 'Tanam Paksa' (Cultuurstelsel?) Western plantation products like coffee and tea and tobacco also became popular with the spirits.

My conclusion is that spirits / sakti, if they are to be offered anything at all, should be considered as guests or friends (if they are friendly) and offered whatever you have at hand. There are the traditional incenses and perfumes and flower compositions that are common, like kembang telon, kembang setaman, macan kerah and so on which are artistic and interesting to look at and interesting to think about, but a friendly spirit should not be offended if offered what ever the host has even be it a Dunkin donat. But if an islamic culture khadam resides in a Hindu / animist blade, his/her presence might overshadow or change the type of sakti originally in the blade through the metal composition and the mPu's meditation. Better sing 'Singgah, singgah kala singgah pan suminggah durga kala sumingkir ...."

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

[lelang69]

Again, i don't mean to discount the metaphysical, but i also think it is very important to look at all the possible natural phenomenon possibilities first.


keris.. keris siapa mau beli keris 50% diskon abis nggak pakai perewangan ( keris keris for sale and discount 50% without Methaphysical power). What's a pity keris in southeast asia. is it an aeng tong tong Touris keris or real keris ?

I agree with david we should be look at the natural phenomenon possibility . But David , I suggest you should be put the natural aspects in number 100 after Methaphysical power in the first place when you are talking about keris with Indonesia or it's neigbouring country. if you don't you must be KUALAT SANTET (methapysical illness).

for Indonesian and it's neigbouring country, a millions Rupiahs ($ 100.000)keris will turn to be 50 tousands rupiahs keris ($ 40s) when they completly do not own methaphysical power.

we should aware as keris lover , keris Empus provide methaphysical, phylosophy aspect in every keris they create
and the Aeng tong tong Keris Smith provide the beauty and mass commodity for the tourist.

This is the reality condition in the world of keris lover In Indonesia and it's neigbouring country,

isn't it Pak Raden usman, pak ganjawulung Leres nggeh!, cik alam Syah bersetuju kah! :)

[PenangsangII]

Lelang69,

I beg to differ WRT your statement that fake spiritually imbued power keris is so widely spread in Southeast Asia, especially in other countries than Indonesia. I am not what the keris market is in Indonesia, but I can tell you for certain, here in Malaysia the situation is very different.

Sure, the blank keris (wedding & tourist craps) are on sale in the open, but most collectors (and pesilat) are aware of what the vendors are selling....crap.

Keris making activities in Malaysia are not as thriving compare to Indonesia (based on info you provided, it's quite big), though I am not sure how this "industry" is like in indonesia. In Malaysia, the keris making activities are dying simply because the pandai keris do not mass produce their craft, and still retain the traditional way of keris forging. If I were to order a standard keris from a smith, it would take him at least 3 - 4 months to complete. And with the mahar of around MYR 700 - 1000 (about USD 200 - 300) per piece, I wonder how he can support his livelihood. That is why, keris making is dying here.

Most collectors therefore would prefer to source their collection from the antique shops, other collectors, internet etc. for older kerises that still maintain its khadam in them :D

[David]

we should aware as keris lover , keris Empus provide methaphysical, phylosophy aspect in every keris they create
and the Aeng tong tong Keris Smith provide the beauty and mass commodity for the tourist.
I think that it should be clear that the vast majority of keris, both old AND new, were not created by an empu. This is a rather specific title as AFAIK. So it seems likely to me that many keris have been created over the centuries by village pandai that were meant to provide more than just "beauty and mass commodity for the tourist". These are cultural items created with a cultural purpose, not for tourists or just collectors.
Contemporary keris are created today on many levels of quality and execution. Many collectors are happy to collect the best of these new keris even if they were created with no metaphysical intent, but purely for their beauty and execution. But i have found that some of these keris have great presence inspite of the lack of such intent. I have also found that a keris with such a presence can be a great empty container which can be filled with spiritual intent if one so wills it. Frankly, one can fill a steak knife with such intent if that is your choice. It just won't be so beautiful to look at. ;) :)
IMHO, powerful magickal objects are useless in the hands of those who do not possess the power and magick within themselves to wield them. ;)

isn't it Pak Raden usman, pak ganjawulung Leres nggeh!, cik alam Syah bersetuju kah! :)
Lelang, you were doing so well up to here. :rolleyes: You have been asked before not to write untranslated passages on this forum. I have no problem with any language written here as long as an accurate translation is also provided. Since you have used Indonesian phrases in the past to pass insults i am particularly wary. Consider yourself warned. :mad:

[David]

[QUOTE=Kiai Carita] Better sing 'Singgah, singgah kala singgah pan suminggah durga kala sumingkir ...." QUOTE]
Bram, would you mind translating this passage? Is this a well know song and is there more to it?
Your point about the changing of offerrings over time is interesting and well taken. :)

[Raden Usman Djogja]

to "some people", spiritual aspect of keris is the most important and sacred.

in the modern business methodology, there is a maxim "first think first"

back to "some people", instead of "first think first", they follow other maxim "most consider last"

hundred aspects of keris, but to summarize it, three consecutive aspects of keris are technical, aestethical and spiritual aspects.

usually, they will examine a keris from spiritual aspect after they consider that keris has passed the examination based on aesthetical standards.

normally, a beautiful keris has excellent technical aspects.

but, if any one wants to consider "spiritual aspect" first then other later, it is up to them since there is no single rule must be followed.

if I am not mistaken, the image of heirlooms of Yogyakarta Sultanate can be seen in a certain book ( I forget the title, perhaps "Yogyakarta Heritage"). There are images of Kiai Joko Piturun, Kiai Kopek [?], Kiai Toyotinaban, etc. imho, even those kerises have been defeated by nature (corrotion), I still can see that its aesthetical dan technical aspects are excellent. (even, as Alan said, actually it is not sufficient to give a comment on those kerises just from pictures without touching directly..... who am I? :shrug: btw, if there is an opportunity to touch them... it is the honour, pray for me Alan, someday I will ever grasp it once or twice)

into the image in this thread, I just blindly guess, an unordinary keris kolobendu owned by Ganjawulung has excellent in both technical and aesthetical aspects. so... perhaps we can continue to ask Gonjo to elaborate the last aspect :)

[Alam Shah]

Better sing 'Singgah, singgah kala singgah pan suminggah durga kala sumingkir ...." Bram, would you mind translating this passage? Is this a well know song and is there more to it?
Your point about the changing of offerrings over time is interesting and well taken. :)Gamelan Music of Central Java - Song of Wisdom and Love.
Court Music - Pangkur Gedhong Kuning

Singgah singgah kala singgah
Pan suminggah durga kala sumingkir
Singa sirah singa suku
Singa tan kasad mata
Sinnga tenggak singa wulu singa bahu
Kabeh padha sumingkira
Mring telenging jalanidhi

Translation:
Move, move, evil spirits, move away,
The prayer to move evils away.
One resides in the head, one in the legs,
The invisible one,
One resides in the neck, one in body hair, one in the arms.
All must move away,
To the centre of the ocean.

;) :D :p ... sung poetry...

[David]

Thanks Shahrial, that is very beautiful (and at times perhaps useful ;) ). :)

[Kiai Carita]

Gamelan Music of Central Java - Song of Wisdom and Love.
Court Music - Pangkur Gedhong Kuning

Singgah singgah kala singgah
Pan suminggah durga kala sumingkir
Singa sirah singa suku
Singa tan kasad mata
Sinnga tenggak singa wulu singa bahu
Kabeh padha sumingkira
Mring telenging jalanidhi

Translation:
Move, move, evil spirits, move away,
The prayer to move evils away.
One resides in the head, one in the legs,
The invisible one,
One resides in the neck, one in body hair, one in the arms.
All must move away,
To the centre of the ocean.

;) :D :p ... sung poetry...

I was taught a rather different song - happens in oral traditions:

Singgah singgah Kala singgah!
Pan suminggah Durga Kala sumingkir!
Singa sirah, singa suku
Singa tan kasat mata
Singa tenggak singa wulu singa bau
Kabeh pada sumingkira
Baliya mring asal neki!

Go away! Go away! Evil spirits go away!
Go away! Destruction and Time go away!
Evil in my head, evil in my limbs
Evil that the eyes can't see
Evil in my throat evil in my hairs and in my energy
Go away I command you
Go back to where you came from!

The melody of this poem is very powerfull and sung properly immediately cleans an atmosphere - when sung, it is cross-cultural and relates to spirits universally. I have experienced many times the power of this song too, and my translation fits into the melody perfectly.

Warm salaams
Bram.

[Kiai Carita]

keris.. keris siapa mau beli keris 50% diskon abis nggak pakai perewangan ( keris keris for sale and discount 50% without Methaphysical power). What's a pity keris in southeast asia. is it an aeng tong tong Touris keris or real keris ?

....KUALAT SANTET (methapysical illness).

......we should aware as keris lover , keris Empus provide methaphysical, phylosophy aspect in every keris they create
and the Aeng tong tong Keris Smith provide the beauty and mass commodity for the tourist........

In defense of aeng Tong Tong keris makers: Mas Hidayat, posting here as Mans can take you to Aeng Tong Tong and introduce you to keris makers who have TOP technical skills. How much can you afford to spend? Aeng Tong Tong craftsmen can make the keris for you. They make keris for a living, be the buyers people who rent out traditional dress or tourists (the tourist market is the smaller one). Aeng Tong Tong is the ONLY village in the whole wild world that has made keris for many many generations, with a pause only during the Japanese occupation durion WWII. If you can't respect that, I suggest you learn to.

Kuwalat and Santet are two different terms relating to different things. Kualat is when someone gets ill-fortune because of disrespecting something he should respect. For example, Lelang might be kuwalat because of the slander he dishes to the Aeng Tong Tong craftsmen. According to tradition if you are kuwalat, when you go to Hell you are hung by your feet with your head down. Santet is a black magic attack mostly initiated by dukun santet. Kuwalat and santet are different things.

Perewangan is not, as Lelang translated, mystical power. A perewangan (from the word rewang - help) is a person who can fall into trance and obtain help from the spiritual realm to answer certain questions like... who stole my keris? ... So a perewangan is a certain type of dukun who falls into trance when his/her helper takes over. Lelang, on the other hand, means auction.

Warm salams,
Bram

[ganjawulung]

... into the image in this thread, I just blindly guess, an unordinary keris kolobendu owned by Ganjawulung has excellent in both technical and aesthetical aspects. so... perhaps we can continue to ask Gonjo to elaborate the last aspect :)

Dear Raden,

Anything related to this aspect is very, very personal... Or talk about it personally...

Ganjawulung

[Raden Usman Djogja]

....
Pan suminggah Durga Kala sumingkir!
......

Go away! Destruction and Time go away!
.....


Kiai Carito and Alam Shah,

Durga Kala = names of mother and son?

Durga = Devi Durga ?
Kala = Bethara/Bathara Kala (her son)?


Mring telenging jalanidhi(?)
or
Baliya mring asal neki!(?)
or
Mring telenging bawono(?)

I would like to know the "final" translation this rapal here in this thread. Then I would like to ask a friend to translate into french (or into west african local language "wolof") or anyone of you can translate into french directly. I will use it for cultural sharing.
Beg your permission, all kerislovers
I am so happy there is someone uploading about this.



regards,

Usman

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Dear Raden,

Anything related to this aspect is very, very personal... Or talk about it personally...

Ganjawulung


dear Gonjo,

Yes, I can understand if it is very personal matter for you. Sorry for asking it publicly. please, forget all about that question.

Usman

[David]

Bram, thank you so much for the additional translation. It seems to be a powerful chant. I wish i could hear the song sung for greater understanding. Doyou know of any recordings of it?
Thanks also for your other translations. ;)

[ganjawulung]

dear Gonjo,

Yes, I can understand if it is very personal matter for you. Sorry for asking it publicly. please, forget all about that question.

Usman

Dear Raden,

What I mean with "personal", is about experiencing "the spiritual aspect" of keris or kerises you have. I don't have hard feeling with your question, Raden...

The first "lesson" for me in the past was "buying spiritual things" from kerises. And what happened is, I bought kerises with so much mythology in them. And blindly believed that my keris such and such has the power of this and this. And my another keris is made by that "hebat" (excellent) empu, and not Aeng Tong Tong one... And so on..

Yes, every keris lover usually has "spiritual experience" on kerises. But usually it is more useful to me, and maybe not for other people. Everyone, has different experience. I don't even want to differ, whether this keris is a "tourist keris" or a "spiritual keris". Actually, keris is a personal thing. What is not personal, is "non-spiritual" aspect.

I knew a very good "dalang" (puppet leather player?), Ki Timbul Hadiprayitno from Yogyakarta. He showed me someday in his house, his very favorite keris. "Spiritual keris" for him, that gave him "strength" when he plays the puppets in front of the people for the whole night long... And it was really "a tourist keris" quality, and I believe was made in Madura, if you regard the "naga" relief. Is it the only keris he has? Of course not. He has even much much better kerises. But still, he always wear that "tourist keris" while he "ndalang" (playing puppets in front of public).

He just told me, that the keris was given by a very ordinary man, a very simple man in one evening. And Ki Timbul always wear this "tourist keris" quality of Nagasasra everytime he plays the puppet. And not wearing the better kerises he has. Why? Just ask Mr Timbul in Bantul, Yogyakarta..

Ganjawulung

[Kiai Carita]

Kiai Carito and Alam Shah,

Durga Kala = names of mother and son?

Durga = Devi Durga ?
Kala = Bethara/Bathara Kala (her son)?


Mring telenging jalanidhi(?)
or
Baliya mring asal neki!(?)
or
Mring telenging bawono(?)

I would like to know the "final" translation this rapal here in this thread. .....
regards,

Usman

Dear Raden Usman,

I learnt this poem years ago when I was 'nyantrik' in Bengkel Teater Rendra, and we were taught this song by a dancer from the Yogya kraton, mBak Lakshmi Simanjuntak (she was married to a Batak man). Rendra then used it in his "Selamatan Anak Cucu Sulaiman", or "Ritual of Solomons Children" - this showed in New York in the late 1980's, so David, there must be a recording from the New York shows somewhere. I use it as a closing for my English wayang kulit shows when in the UK. It is powerfull, no doubt about that.

I think the differences of the end words are not too relevant, but, Baliya mring asal neki, to me is more powerfull : Go back to where you came from, rather than the middle of the sea or the centre of the earth. When sung in english, the Om at the end of from also adds weight just like the Hindu chant Om. To translate it into any languange I would recomend the translator learn to sing it first - so you get a resemblance to the guru lagu (melody teacher) and guru wilangan (rhythm teacher) of the original.

I was taught that this was composed by Kanjeng Sunan Kalijaga, so in kerisology it is a tangguh Demak song. You can see in the words that it is Islam pushing out Hinduism. Durga and Kala, are Batari Durga and Batara Kala, that is why I translate it to Destruction and Time. In the UK the Hindu community might be offended if they hear a song attacking Durga. :D

Warm salaams,
Bram.

[Alam Shah]

Dear Kiai Carita... your translation to English do justice to the chant. I'm sorry that my translation is under-par and in some ways mis-leading. :o

The way you extract the meanings from religion is impeccable.
I thank you for the proper translation. :)

However, when religion is applied... I'm think it would offend many religions.
The essence is still Javanese Hindu with Javanese Islam influence, imho. ;) :confused:

[David]

Yes, every keris lover usually has "spiritual experience" on kerises. But usually it is more useful to me, and maybe not for other people. Everyone, has different experience. I don't even want to differ, whether this keris is a "tourist keris" or a "spiritual keris". Actually, keris is a personal thing. What is not personal, is "non-spiritual" aspect.

I knew a very good "dalang" (puppet leather player?), Ki Timbul Hadiprayitno from Yogyakarta. He showed me someday in his house, his very favorite keris. "Spiritual keris" for him, that gave him "strength" when he plays the puppets in front of the people for the whole night long... And it was really "a tourist keris" quality, and I believe was made in Madura, if you regard the "naga" relief. Is it the only keris he has? Of course not. He has even much much better kerises. But still, he always wear that "tourist keris" while he "ndalang" (playing puppets in front of public).

He just told me, that the keris was given by a very ordinary man, a very simple man in one evening. And Ki Timbul always wear this "tourist keris" quality of Nagasasra everytime he plays the puppet. And not wearing the better kerises he has. Why? Just ask Mr Timbul in Bantul, Yogyakarta..

Ganjawulung

Ganja, i find so much truth in these words. Magick and spiritual intent is indeed a very personal affair and power can be embued into a keris (or any object) at many places along it's life by many different people. It doesn't necessarily need to originate with the empu who made the keris. I believe that in the right hands a contempory (or even a "tourist" keris) can become a very powerful spiritual tool. I believe this because essentially the "true" power resides within the practioner. This is not to say that some keris do not carry a power of their own, but i can't see that power being of much use if one is unable to access the power within themselves. :)

[ganjawulung]

...Magick and spiritual intent is indeed a very personal affair and power can be embued into a keris (or any object) at many places along it's life by many different people. It doesn't necessarily need to originate with the empu who made the keris. I believe that in the right hands a contempory (or even a "tourist" keris) can become a very powerful spiritual tool. I believe this because essentially the "true" power resides within the practioner...:)

Yes David,

I've learned much from the simplicity of Ki Timbul Hadiprayitno. I met him in Bantul last March, a couple weeks after his dwelling place was flatted and levelled to earth by the giant earth-quake in that area.

Property, wealth, rank, position, profession according to him are only entrusted goods from God. They are not eternal. And from that encounter on March, I saw that Ki Timbul show this strong character of "he is what he is". He is aware of himself, being a common people. His formal title, Kanjeng Raden Tumenggung (KRT) Cerma Manggala -- given by the late Sultan Hamengku Buwono IX more than 30 years ago -- is only entrusted goods too. Ki Timbul (more than 70) is aware, he is "only" the Nagasasra with the quality of "tourist keris", although the keris' sheath is made of beautiful ivory, the pendhok is "suasa" (copper-gold mixture), gold keris ring and his keris' hilt is made of ivory...

Ki Timbul is one of the best "spiritual dhalang" or wayang puppet-player in Java nowadays...

Ganjawulung

[rahman]

I used to be engaged in a fiery discussion in another forum and was insulted badly by a few forumites when putting across the traditional way of treating the keris in my collection, and the way I communicated with the keris (in this case, the guardian of the keris). From then on, I swear to myself to never again discuss keris in the spiritual context.

So Hana, please be prepared as the non traditionalists will bash you up to the maximum if you are not careful when discussing this subject. Some of them are perhaps what the other forumites termed as "ghost readers" and would definitely jump in when the situation warrants.

Penangsang is probably referring to his unpleasant experience in KampungNet, and that came about when he chose to belittle the faith other members have in their Islamic traditions. Indeed, I had up to that point resisted requests to shut down that particular thread.

As David has already warned, there is no such danger here, and I encourage discussions on these mystical aspects here rather than in KampungNet, where no such reactions should arise or would be welcomed.

[HanaChu69]

Greetings keris experts,

Great to see more replies in this sharing session..I guess we are moving right on track…I like the different version of “Pangkur Gedhong Kuning”..Aspirational indeed…

Penangsang – Thanks for the tips. As for the insults you received from the other forums, its very norm. Look at it this way; different forums have various viewers of different culture. Take the positive and switch off the negative comments. BTW, it’s sad to hear about the dying keris making trades in Malaysia.

Bram – I have to agree that “Aeng Tong Tong craftsmen” has a class of its own. I saw how Mans and friends managed to trace the village. It was quite challenging as there’s no directional sign amidst the forestry area. I saw their kerises and find their craftsmanship worthy. I might consider them if I have a new patrem in mind to custom made to my aesthetic liking maybe someday.

Usman – I know that there are no specific rules on the three consecutive aspects of keris but my preference will be aesthetical, technical followed lastly by spiritual aspects.

Ganjawulung – I knew of someone who has a powerful keris but zero from aesthetic aspect. He will collect only kerises with spiritual aspect. So it’s very subjective.

David - I believe anything is possible. You may have a keris without “khadam/sakti”. However, if you are likeable, these spirits may just reside and hop into your keris as a dwelling place. It’s a figure of speech to contextualize my understanding.

May the force be with you…

[Raden Usman Djogja]

.... I believe this because essentially the "true" power resides within the practioner...

David and Gonjo,

I do believe as you, the true power resides within the practioner. However, some people believe keris has power which influencing the practioner/holder. Which one is true? Perhaps, none holds "absolute" truth. It is like chicken and eggs enigma. Which one comes first.

The moderate people would say there is co-relation between them, practioner and keris. Based on the corelationship amongst them, the power has multiplied exponentially.

I do really want to have an opportunity to discuss spiritual aspects of shadow puppet, keris and local values with Ki Timbul "The Dalang". I used to listen to his performance whenever the local broadcaster (usually GCD FM) programmed it on air. Sometimes, I followed it from the begining to the end. Sometimes, just in goro-goro part.

[What do you translate Dalang and Goro-Goro in English?]

Someday, I had discussed with an ordinary dalang about something which he considered as a pusaka. He preferred to pick up not a personal example but in general. Usually, a dalang has a thing which is considered as pusaka. It can be a keris, an akik (stone), one of his gamelan instruments or one of his puppets. None knows because, usually, he keeps it secretly. Some dalangs, use it whenever they perform shadow puppet. Some dalangs, instead of using it when performing shadow, they use it when they do ritual works (meditation, "nayuh", contemplation, and so on). The dalangs have vary opinions about a time or condition which is considered as a sacred part then they consider an neccessity to hold "his pusaka".

By listening to the radio, I had a guessing that Ki Timbul had the elaboration of my questions. But in the end of 80s and the eraly of 90s, he was in his peak whilst I was just a student. It was difficult to have such opportunity. Usually, I chose to meet with people (dalang, dukun, kiai, et cetera et cetera) at a time "before" or "after" their peak seasons. To whom I considered him as "pre-peak somebody", I could listen to and learn his values on wish, hope, ambition and expected achievement. To whom I considered as "after-peak somebody", I could listen to and learn his recollection of golden career and unfinished hope, wisdom and the way he has already pathed. To whom I considered as "on air or on peak somebody", seemingly, they considered me as "a student with bugget package without any interesting offered" then leading to no substantial conversation.

[Kiai Carita]

...
I do really want to have an opportunity to discuss spiritual aspects of shadow puppet, keris and local values with Ki Timbul "The Dalang". I used to listen to his performance whenever the local broadcaster (usually GCD FM) programmed it on air. Sometimes, I followed it from the begining to the end. Sometimes, just in goro-goro part.

[What do you translate Dalang and Goro-Goro in English?]

Someday, I had discussed with an ordinary dalang about something which he considered as a pusaka. He preferred to pick up not a personal example but in general. Usually, a dalang has a thing which is considered as pusaka. It can be a keris, an akik (stone), one of his gamelan instruments or one of his puppets. None knows because, usually, he keeps it secretly. Some dalangs, use it whenever they perform shadow puppet. Some dalangs, instead of using it when performing shadow, they use it when they do ritual works (meditation, "nayuh", contemplation, and so on). The dalangs have vary opinions about a time or condition which is considered as a sacred part then they consider an neccessity to hold "his pusaka"....

Ki Timbul from Bantul is indeed a very good and respected dalang -in this case, dalang is shadow pupeteer (spl?) ... I studied breifly with him in the early / mid 80s. One thing I remember he said was that if you want to be a dalang, you must aspire to be more than famous (kondang), rather you should aspire to be accepted (ketrima). His training as a boy consisted of walking around Central and East Jawa, visiting elder dalangs and talking to people, appart from sitting behind his father handing him puppets in a show. Another Yogya dalang I like and studied with is Ki Hadi Sugito, who now doesn't perform any more, but was expert in goro-goro, especially in bringing the character Bagong to life. He invented 'Bagong Ratu' - a comedy when Bagong becomes king.

Goro-Goro is a part of the wayang kulit dramatic structure where the tides begin to turn for the good side and clown-gods (panakawan) appear. It is signalled by the suluk (sung poetry) Bumi gonjang-ganjing, langit kelap-kelap katon....ooooo...lir gencanging aris, denya ilang wewadhine, wadhananira kumel kucem rahnya maratani...hoooooong. The earth shakes, there is fire in the sky, the seas rise, women loose their shame, their looks are crumpled and the peasants' faces loose their shine....hooooooong! In the goro-goro, the good hero listens to the advice of the clown-gods and finds the strength to continue the struggle victoriousely.

David, if you google Pangkur Gedhong Kuning, you will find a page that refers to a CD in the US.

Most dalangs, have several pusaka in the form of an inherited puppet, a gamelan instrument, and a keris. Sometimes when they retire or even before that) they also are dukuns - like Ki Hadi Sugito from Wates.

Warm salaams,
Bram.

[PenangsangII]

Dear Mr Rahman & Hana,

About that thread in kampungnet, don't worry, it's all in the past. No hard feeling :) .

Actually, me & Sepokal were continuously attacked by a few forumites before we eventually had to defend ourselves and retaliated. I cant provide the link here as the thread was dumped into the rubbish bin, but if I remember correctly, I was accused of being the follower of paganism / jahiliyyah, Hinduistic, unislamic, a complete idiot and so on. Like David said, respecting other people's personal belief by giving arguments academically and without attacking other people's personality is the key of ethics in a forum. The one thing internet communication is, it's world wide, world without border. There is no way that a forum on internet should be targeted to certain types of people only, otherwise I would have told them that they had no business being in the sub-forum "keris collecting" as they had no respect to the keris.

Enough has been said, lets continue with the topic.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

.... I like and studied with is Ki Hadi Sugito, who now doesn't perform any more, but was expert in goro-goro, especially in bringing the character Bagong to life. He invented 'Bagong Ratu' - a comedy when Bagong becomes king.

....

Most dalangs, have several pusaka in the form of an inherited puppet, a gamelan instrument, and a keris. Sometimes when they retire or even before that) they also are dukuns - like Ki Hadi Sugito from Wates.

Warm salaams,
Bram.

dear Bram,

Does Ki Hadisugito have not performed shadow puppet anymore?! yes, the character of Bagong in his performances inspired me so much. In one occasion, related to my formal studies, before audience, a prominent professor asked me what kind of development strategies, in my opinion, should be implemented in my country. One of my answers was a stretegy which could create a situation/an environment that people could do as Bagong did in Ki Hadisugito performance. Full of joy from the beginning till the end of goro-goro.

Back to spirit aspect, especially, of keris. What is your opinion in how to trigger for activating the inner spirit of both the practioner and his keris?

yes, as David said, the most important is "the man behind the gun". Equipped by a good rifle, a talented hunter will become "a big issue" amongst jungles' community (like in the movie).

warm salam,

OeS

[Kiai Carita]

dear Bram,

Does Ki Hadisugito have not performed shadow puppet anymore?! ....
.................................................. ..........................................
Back to spirit aspect, especially, of keris. What is your opinion in how to trigger for activating the inner spirit of both the practioner and his keris?

warm salam,

OeS

Raden, I last saw Pak Hadisugito around 9 years ago, and at that time he wasn't performing anymore due to ill health. Some of his sons were, but not as successfull as him. However, around Yogya you can still find recordings of some of his performances, including, Bagong Ratu. In fact thanks to recording technology, we can still enjoy Nartosabdho years after he passed away.

As to spirit in keris - I am not really interested in the Aladien type of spirit, nor am I interested in having a jinn for a slave (Khadam), but like all good art, the keris also has a spirit inherent in it, from the maker and from the materials. How do you activate the spirit? You must study it, in much the same way as an actor must study Hamlet before being able to deliver the famous line - "to be or not to be, that is the question" ... Everyone knows that Shakepeare is a good writer but not everyone can bring his words to life. Same with a keris, the 'spirit' or power is there, but you can't bring it to life if you don't have it in you.

In Jawanese terms I was taught that you must use 'olah rasa' to be able to feel the truth about the keris. The way to olah rasa that I was taught is called 'gerak nurani' - which is more or less similar to the 'latihan' they do in Subud. You must learn to 'ngetutake krenteg' - follow in flow the split-second decisions of your feeling and let your mind relax and not think, move and flow 'pasrah' surrender to Allah. This exercise done over and over activates a sixth sense. Once this rasa is active, you have your spirit activated, you will find it easy to touch and fill and bring fourth the spirit of a keris.

Warm salaams,
Bram

[ganjawulung]

I do really want to have an opportunity to discuss spiritual aspects of shadow puppet, keris and local values with Ki Timbul "The Dalang". I used to listen to his performance whenever the local broadcaster (usually GCD FM) programmed it on air. Sometimes, I followed it from the begining to the end. Sometimes, just in goro-goro part.


Yes Raden,

In my eyes, Ki Timbul is a "professor" of simplicity... These are two pictures of my old simple man, with his favorite Nagasasra...

Ganjawulung

[Raden Usman Djogja]

to all keris lovers,

remarkable....
enlightening me.

Usman

[Raden Usman Djogja]

If I look at the way of Ki Timbul held and opened his beloved keris, I realize that he admired deeply to his belonging. "If not we, who will admire ourself :shrug: ".

Guys and gals, if I am not mistaken, "curigo" is a synonym of/for keris. I do not exactly know its transalation into english. perhaps "curigo" means curiousity. On the other hand, "waos" is a synonym of/for point of spear/lance. "Waos" explicitly means tooth or teeth. One of the implicit meanings of "waos/tooth/teeth" amongst rumpun Melayu (including Javanese) is strength, isnt it?

This opinion below must need further examination since the source is not expertise nor prominent person in the world of Kerisology. Here is his opinion which I got during my journey when I was still undergrad student in Djokja.

There are some pusaka which their spirit have influence on the beholder. Meanwhile, there are some pusaka which theris spirit have influence not only on the beholder but also on the surrounding community. According to these opinions, usually, keris refers to the first classification whilst spear/lance point refers to the second one.

All keris lovers, s'il vous plait, now, the floor is yours?

warm regards,

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

A few days ago Kiai Carito offered an opinion on the nature of a suitable offering to a sekti object.

Perhaps we could consider this :-

if we believe that there is some essence in a sekti object, be it a keris,or be it something else, is it not so that this essence is not separate from the universal essence?

is not this universal essence indestructible and eternal, and thus indivisible from the singularity which we conceptualise as "God"?

that which is great, is also small, the essence that we may believe is in our sekti object is not separate from, but is a part of the singularity.

in the making of an offering, it is not the material elements of the offering that are important---these are only present to calm our own imperfections and to assist our own weak and undisciplined thoughts along the path of devotion.

it is the mental attitude that is of greatest importance in any offering to any sekti object.

in the Gita the Lord said:- "Whoever offers a leaf, a flower, a fruit or even water with devotion, that will I accept, offered as it is with a loving heart".

in an offering to a sekti object, we are offering to an element of the singularity that we believe has entered into that object, thus we are offering to our individual conception of "God".

a flower, or a leaf offered with the right mental attitude is as valuable as any complex ritual.

but to learn the right mental attitude is perhaps the work of a lifetime.

or several.

[David]

A few days ago Kiai Carito offered an opinion on the nature of a suitable offering to a sekti object.

Perhaps we could consider this :-

if we believe that there is some essence in a sekti object, be it a keris,or be it something else, is it not so that this essence is not separate from the universal essence?

is not this universal essence indestructible and eternal, and thus indivisible from the singularity which we conceptualise as "God"?

that which is great, is also small, the essence that we may believe is in our sekti object is not separate from, but is a part of the singularity.

in the making of an offering, it is not the material elements of the offering that are important---these are only present to calm our own imperfections and to assist our own weak and undisciplined thoughts along the path of devotion.

it is the mental attitude that is of greatest importance in any offering to any sekti object.

in the Gita the Lord said:- "Whoever offers a leaf, a flower, a fruit or even water with devotion, that will I accept, offered as it is with a loving heart".

in an offering to a sekti object, we are offering to an element of the singularity that we believe has entered into that object, thus we are offering to our individual conception of "God".

a flower, or a leaf offered with the right mental attitude is as valuable as any complex ritual.

but to learn the right mental attitude is perhaps the work of a lifetime.

or several.

Brilliant... :)

[Raden Usman Djogja]

so whenever the holder reachs to the essence of singularity, the mission of keris is accomplished. Added by one imaginer curve, the curves of keris is already even. to the holder, no need a keris anymore, even no need everything as a medium in his search. to the keris, its destiny will be decided then.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

dear all Kerislovers,

Perhaps, the last part of our discussion here is on the level of philosophy. Trully, it gives me a genuine enlightment during my study of wesi-aji (valuable steel/iron).

As a car. Perhaps, from the philosophical point of view, the usage of car is to make a journey faster, easier and more confortable. By having a good understanding in philosophical aspects, it does not mean automatically we can use it correctly. As if a driver, to be a good driver, some other abilities are needed.

I do hope all of us may come down to the level of practice (lower than philosophy)... some areas like "how to use a car" instead of "the usage of car". In other thread, a part of ancient book uploaded by Gonjo, there is interesting statement, "If mr so and so holds/uses keris made by empu such and such with "his purity of heart and mind", the remarkable power will emerge from him & his keris. Some questions rise after reading that thread such as... whether there is a standard of procedure to use/operate (technically) of keris?

May all kerislovers contribute this discussion with your knowledges and experiences... thanks in advance.

warm regards,
Usmen

[PenangsangII]

Dear Pak Raden,

Awesome discussion, but I have a question....

If a Tosan Aji is commissioned by a customer, and forged accordingly by the empu with the intention of the owner's prosperity, is used to kill someone for whatever reason, does it affect the tuah of the keris? Will it render the keris useless? If so, how do we regain the tuah? Thanks in advance.

[ganjawulung]

I do hope all of us may come down to the level of practice (lower than philosophy)... some areas like "how to use a car" instead of "the usage of car". In other thread, a part of ancient book uploaded by Gonjo, there is interesting statement, "If mr so and so holds/uses keris made by empu such and such with "his purity of heart and mind", the remarkable power will emerge from him & his keris. Some questions rise after reading that thread such as... whether there is a standard of procedure to use/operate (technically) of keris?


Yes Raden, to manage of "how to use a car" properly, of course it is not worse if people also manage to know "the usage of car", to know the detail of your car, the machine, the weakness of the type of your car's machine...

Ganjawulung

[David]

If a Tosan Aji is commissioned by a customer, and forged accordingly by the empu with the intention of the owner's prosperity, is used to kill someone for whatever reason, does it affect the tuah of the keris?

I don't think anyone can properly answer this question other than to say that it if far too vague to be answerable. You can't really say "for whatever reason" because that reason may well factor in to the answer to the question. Perhaps the keris was used in the protection of the owner's prosperity...who knows. What is permissable may well be between the empu and the owner...and God. ;) :shrug:

[PenangsangII]

Sorry David, my question was very vague. Let me rephrase it more properly by giving an example.

A merchant commissioned a keris with the intention to enhance his status & prosperity. One day, a thief broke into his house, and the merchant had to defend his belongings by fighting off the intruder using his "prosperity keris". In the ensuing fight, the thief was stabbed & killed.

Now that the keris had tasted blood which is far from the intended purpose of prosperity talisman, would the keris still have that particular talismanic value?

I am asking you this because, a man in a village of my hometown, had to use his keris when a monitor lizzard intruded into his chicken coop & stealing / killing / eating his chickens. Out of anger, and without any other weapons at that time, he used his keris to stab dead the lizzard. Consequently, a week later he fell ill and became insane. As the modern medicine had no answer to his illness, the family members took him to see a bomoh / dukun / shaman. It was diagnosed by the traditional healer that the genie khadam within the keris had caused the illness, as the keris was meant to be used as personal protection against any unseen forces. So by stabbing the monitor lizzard, the man had somewhat insulted his own keris and of course the being inside :confused:

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Gonjo, yes, you are right. Ideally, it must be like what you said.

Penangsang, I dont have any exact answer for your case. It is very unique and specific. However, I have ever heard about "sukerto" and "ruwat". These two words are very familiar amongst pupet perfomance lovers. So, lets hope that someone like Kiai Carita, Alan or Gonjo is eager to give comments.

warm salam,

Usman

[HanaChu69]

Greetings everyone,

I’m procrastinating on my replies but after much prompting I’ve decided to give my half cents worth of opinion. Do apologize if they don’t appeal to some for the way I perceive things may be peculiar and different from others.

Bram – The “olah rasa” and “gerak nurani” seems familiar but could you elaborate. If you’re hesitant please do email me at hana_chu69@yahoo.com.sg to double confirm on my understanding.

Pak Alan – Hmm..I’m trying to simplify and you’re trying to confuse :confused: ..Anyway, those who are able to contextualize, relate and connect to your level of thinking (same frequency) will definitely benefit. I like the saying on “offered as it is with a loving heart"”. My interpretation of likeable=loving heart=sincerity. I find “mental attitude” interesting and it may take you a lifetime to get it right.

Penangsang – I sympathizes with the man who become insane. It’s wise to source the origin of the keris and if it’s a Malay or Indonesian keris. For a Malay keris, the empu will usually recite (zikir) verses from the Holy Quran and khadam a Muslim. Of course, he will be angry if you go against his beliefs and principles. It is wise to get a person who is able to communicate with keris as in “negotiate” or maybe there are other factors involved. Pray and hope that he will recover soon.

Usman – I maybe half Javanese but I still need to read up on Javanese culture, customs and rituals. Is it possible for you to elaborate definition on “sukerto" and "ruwat"? Can we apply them to keris and other pusaka items as well?

Sincerely,
Hana

[A. G. Maisey]

Hana, I'm sorry if what I have written is causing any confusion. I did spend a little time trying to make this idea as simple as I possibly could, so that there would be no confusion.The proposition is really simplicity itself. Broken down to the elemental all it means is that God is in all things, and an offering to any sekti thing that you honour is an offering to God. Because God is above pettiness, the physical nature of the offering is unimportant, the attitude of the person making the offering is all important. Offer only a prayer with sincerity in your heart , and that is sufficient. The function of ritual is not to honour God, but to bring discipline to the mind of man, so his mind is in the correct state to honour his God.

[Montino Bourbon]

You put it really well, Mr Maisey.

[HanaChu69]

Pak Alan, appreciate that you are trying your best to place the correct words and use the most simplified for all to relate. I really don’t mean to be harsh or being disrespectful and now I'm feeling bad.. :p

Thank you so much for the above clarifications. Well said, everyone can now have a better understanding as in tuning to the same frequency…

[A. G. Maisey]

Hana, I'm sure it would be impossible for you to be harsh, or disrespectful in even the slightest degree.

As for feeling bad---nothing wrong with feeling bad---as long as you enjoy it.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Greetings everyone,

Usman – I maybe half Javanese but I still need to read up on Javanese culture, customs and rituals. Is it possible for you to elaborate definition on “sukerto" and "ruwat"? Can we apply them to keris and other pusaka items as well?

Sincerely,
Hana

Hana,

I may not have sufficient information about this matter. So I am afraid if I try to explain it to you, it can confuse. However, since none of us speak about "Sukerto" and "Ruwat" but you and me, I will try to tell what I know about.

Actually, I could email personally you. But rather than PM, allow me to respond it through this thread. Why, by informing openly, I hope whenever my explanation is not correct, any kerislover can interupt it and give better explanation. It is important. Why? Because too many cases I found in the keris world, the first information they get, it is believed as the truth. Whenever they recieve better/true information latter, they tend move uneasily from the first stand. So, hopefully, don't hold my statement which will be the first information you receive about "sukerto" and "ruwat" as the truth.

I will focus directly on "sukerto" and "ruwat" for goods (not for human). Sukerto, perhaps, is defect product because of wrong-using. For instance, the locomotive which hit somebody till causing his death. Then, that locomotive is considered as "sukerto good". For a simple good, if it is considered as a sukerto good, then the owner can simply throw it away (to the sea... the term of throwing away is "larung). But how...if a sukerto good is a locomotif which need abundant investment. Too valuable. To neutralize the bad influence of a "sukerto" good is by "ruwat" procession. After "ruwat"ed, it is hoped that the locomotive will be "normal" again without any "bad" influence to its users.

As Alan said, the most important of "ruwat" procession is to dicipline our mind that everything comes from the Singularity and will come back to the Singularity, including "bad" influence. "Bad" depends on our point of view and interest.

Perhaps, this explanation is also as a respond of Penangsang's question. But rather than as an answer, consider it as exchange views to open further discussion.

Actually, I still hope Kiai Carita's enlightment since we know he is a dalang with pangkur gedong kuning song.

warm regards,
Usman

[Rick]

Hana,

Actually, I still hope Kiai Carita's enlightment since we know he is a dalang with pangkur gedong kuning song.

warm regards,
Usman

Could you translate please ? :)

[ganjawulung]

Usman – I maybe half Javanese but I still need to read up on Javanese culture, customs and rituals. Is it possible for you to elaborate definition on “sukerto" and "ruwat"? Can we apply them to keris and other pusaka items as well?

I would help a little bit to Mr Usman, if you don't mind. I don't think you can apply "sukerta" and "ruwat" to kerises or other pusaka items. Actually the two Javanese terms are very difficult to explain in other language.

Any human with "sukerta" position, must be "diruwat" (to be 'ruwatted', sorry for this Javanese English). You are "manusia" (human) sukerta, it means that you are born with an anomality position -- such as you are the only son or the only daughter, you were born 'in the middle of the different sexes', male-female-male, or female-male-female -- and also you are 'sukerta' if you've done such 'taboo' things according to Javanese community such as: throwing garbage from the window, or not intentionally let a "dandang" fall. Dandang is a very special form of rice-pan in Java. And many more "sukerta" kriteria...

So, if you are "manusia sukerta" in traditional Java community, then you need to be 'ruwatted'... And the ritual ceremony of "ruwatan" must be conducted by a "true dhalang" or "true wayang puppeteer" that called as "Dhalang Kandha Buwana" (I don't have the English translation -- not literally -- for this term of dhalang).

So, the "manusia sukerta" must be "ruwatted" by the true dhalang, in order to free him or her from the target of Bethara Kala or gods of Kala (time and death). In the past time, according to the past trace of Candi Sukuh inscription near Mount Lawu in Surakarta, the "manusia sukerta" must be poured too, with special water called "pawitra" or water from a holy bathing-place...

Ganjawulung

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Rick,

forgive me not translating "a dalang with pangkur gedhong kuning song". let me try to translate it " a puppeteer (puppet player) who sing a song yellow manson pangkur". Sorry, still I cannot translate "pangkur" into english. In jawa, songs are divided into several classification. Pangkur is a class of Jawanese song(s). Am I right, friends?


Gonjo,

thank you for explaining "ruwat" and "sukerto" that in your explanation it cannot applied for keris or "goods". yes, I got the same information as you said from my Jawanese teachers when I was in high schools (they were remarkable teachers). Ritual of ruwat and term of sukerto are for human. So, ruwatan applied for goods which people praticing it in my village is not the standard ruwat (pakem). Perhaps, it is a part of human innovation/modification. Hope Hanachu will follow the standard understanding of ruwat and sukerto as you mentioned.


Penangsang,

According to your inquiry how if a certain is used to kill, it is hard to answer. Perhaps, the simple way is to "larung" (throw away) that keris to the ocean or a junction of rivers. However, how is that keris too important for its master? The most prominent heirloom of Djokjakarta sultanate, Kiai Plered, was used to kill Aria Penangsang by Senopati, to hurt Ronggo Keniten by Senopati too, to kill Pragolopati the Second by the Great Sultan's warrior (grandson of Senopati), to kill Suronoto by Prince Hangabehi. However, till nowadays, Kiai Plered is still has important place in Djokjakarta Sultanate. Perhaps, in term of heirlooms of Djokjakarta Sultanate, Kiai Plered is the most important.What is your opinion about this Kiai Plered story?

warm salam
Usman

[sepokal]

Assalamualaikum and Salam Bahagia to forumers,

Just thought that I'll give some thoughts about this issue. I guess it is only right for me to reply (beradab) to a my friend Penangsang when he did mention my name regarding this.

First and foremost, I would like to explain that my explaination is solely based on malay perspective regarding keris. There are differences between Malay and Javanese point of views regarding keris so hence, my apologies for any wrong, coming from my views regarding this issue.

Penangsang and fellow forumers, the Malays believe, first and foremost, a keris is a weapon. It's function, is more for killing, and never are they more interested in knowing the mystical aspect of the keris first, That comes later. They are more concern, on the practicality side of the weapon in which, how it feels like when they dance the silat dance with the keris and also, when called upon to use it, how the keris behaves in one's grip. That, in itself, does not mean that they deny the mystical side of the keris, but rather, consider the mystical side of it, as secondary to it's function as a weapon. A Malay keris that has killed many a men (or women) in trying to defend it's owner's life and that of family honour, should be considered as a weapon that has done great service to it's owner. Hence, it should never be thrown, rather, it should be kept well and appreciate for it's loyalty towards it's owner. My pusaka have killed many during the Dutch occupation. It was kept by my grandmother and none of her sons and daugthers knew of this (including my father). I kept receiving dreams of this weapons being used by my great great great grandfather who fought to defend the family honour and in those dreams, I dreamt and saw many people being killed by this pusaka of mine. One day, my grandmother (for reasons I don't know why), was very restless and requested my uncle to bring her to Kuala Lumpur, from Singapore. She is very old, but due to her request, she was brought to my house. When she came to my house, I enquired from her, whether she has any pusaka from my greatgrandfather (this pusaka has been in my family since 1700 ++) She immediately says, yes, she do have one. My uncles and aunties were shocked at this revelation. They asked her, why did she says no when they enquired about the pusaka, years ago. She told them that the pusaka is not meant for them, but for me. She told them, the pusaka can never be pulled out from the sarung except for the one that was given the right to pulled it out. I asked her for the pusaka and told her that I was asked to keep it. She readily accept my request, Alhamdulillah. Upon receiving it, several weeks later, I did not pull it out of the sheath yet because my inner instinct told me not to. My dad tried to pull it out of the sheath, followed by my uncles and aunties, but none of them was able to pull it out. The next morning, after my sholat suboh, my instinct told me to pull it out. I pulled it out in one pull. I smell the blade, my god, it smelt bad. I think, I did smell blood and you can see traces of dark spots that might suggest blood. It was a nice blade and it needs some TLC (Tender, luv and care) and that is exactly what I did. It took lots of time and concentration from me to clean it. Alhamdulillah, it was all worth it. I did try to hold it and my God, it felt soo good and appropriately balance in my hand. When I remember back those times when I had those dreams, then I realise how it was used to protect my great great great great grandfather from being killed by the dutch. How can one throw that away when it was, at one time, provide it services for the safety of my family.

Many people believe that once a keris or badek etc, have killed before, then those weapons are bad luck. It is sad that those thoughts are well implanted in most malays nowadays, when at one time, it was never an issue because, keris has always been, first and foremost, a weapon, and never do the malay worries regarding it's luck, when it has tasted blood and "ate" meat.

Regards,
Sepokal toh putih

p.s
penangsang, setakat itu sahajalah pendapat saya yang tak seberapa ini.

[PenangsangII]

Thank you very much Sepokal for giving the answer from a Malay's perspective. Sometimes, I feel I am at the disadvantage for having mixed parentage :) .

I agree with you that keris is first & foremost a weapon, but I am not sure that after tasting blood, shouldnt the keris be purified (dipulihkan) or maybe in Javanese term - ruwat?

About the insane guy, I am sorry to tell you (Sepokal, Hana, AlamShah, David and all), the incident took place in early 90's, and the man had since died without regaining his sanity. A sad story indeed, as something could have been done to save, at least his life.

Mr Sepokal or others, where can I buy an original kemuning kerdas hilt (Sulawesi style) and the matching pendokok to go with my sepokal blade (Sepokal, you know that blade)?

[PenangsangII]

Dear Pak Raden,

I thought Arya Penangsang was killed by his own keris, Ki Setan Kober? I wouldnt repeat his mistake if I were in his position again.

And about that hierloom tombak, Ki Plered, may I ask whether it had to go thru purification process after each kill?

Salam
penangsang

[Kiai Carita]

Rick,
Gonjo,

thank you for explaining "ruwat" and "sukerto" that in your explanation it cannot applied for keris or "goods". yes, I got the same information as you said from my Jawanese teachers when I was in high schools (they were remarkable teachers). Ritual of ruwat and term of sukerto are for human. So, ruwatan applied for goods which people praticing it in my village is not the standard ruwat (pakem). Perhaps, it is a part of human innovation/modification. Hope Hanachu will follow the standard understanding of ruwat and sukerto as you mentioned.


Penangsang,

According to your inquiry how if a certain is used to kill, it is hard to answer. Perhaps, the simple way is to "larung" (throw away) that keris to the ocean or a junction of rivers. However, how is that keris too important for its master? The most prominent heirloom of Djokjakarta sultanate, Kiai Plered, was used to kill Aria Penangsang by Senopati, to hurt Ronggo Keniten by Senopati too, to kill Pragolopati the Second by the Great Sultan's warrior (grandson of Senopati), to kill Suronoto by Prince Hangabehi. However, till nowadays, Kiai Plered is still has important place in Djokjakarta Sultanate. Perhaps, in term of heirlooms of Djokjakarta Sultanate, Kiai Plered is the most important.What is your opinion about this Kiai Plered story?

warm salam
Usman

Dear all, in Jawa, ruwatan and sukerta apply to people. Check http://www.joglosemar.co.id/ruwatan.html there is a detailed naration of ruwatan there. You must be a senior dalang, with grandchildren, before you can become a dalang ruwat. Currently the term ruwatan has also often been used in terms of the Nation.

A keris (or tombak) that has been used to kill is not considered bad unless it was used to kill some one you would rather have not been killed. Is Kiai Plered a good pusaka? Yes, for Yogya, but not for its victims.

One should not use a keris to kill a lizard though especially if it is only a biawak stealing chickens. If a person is unhappy with a keris (s)he should either sell it or give it away but never larung it into the sea. To larung a keris is a Jawa tradition but nowadays it should be considered as destroying archeological artefacts and littering.

If you look at the pusaka of the Yogya kraton, you will find that many pusaka are not really of extraordinary quality. Kiai Plered is a common soldier's spear, designed as a weapon and became a pusaka later, after succesfully serving Senopati in his fights to power. There is even a very wierd Kiai Vandeel which is not a tosan aji but rather a small banner presented by the Dutch to a Sultan in the past. All the old European carriages in the Kraton are also venerated as Kiai thisandthat. These become pusaka by the virtue of being used and owned by kings.


Warm salaams,
Bram

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Dear Pak Raden,

I thought Arya Penangsang was killed by his own keris, Ki Setan Kober? I wouldnt repeat his mistake if I were in his position again.

And about that hierloom tombak, Ki Plered, may I ask whether it had to go thru purification process after each kill?

Salam
penangsang

Penangsang,

Oo..you are right. Arya Penangsang was killed by his own keris, Kiai Setan Kober.

I dont have any story about purification of tombak Kiai Plered. Does anyone have? As I have, only King of Djokja
himself takes care of it. It shows the important role of Kiai Plered in DjoKja (perhaps, both in term of mataram history and in term of its spirit)

Back to the spirit inside, do you think there is different pattern of spirit between keris and spear point (tombak)?

Usman

[Raden Usman Djogja]

.....To larung a keris is a Jawa tradition but nowadays it should be considered as destroying archeological artefacts and littering....




Kiai Carita,

It is interesting. In one side, if we sell a keris that we believe it has bad influence to the owner, we will feel guilty to its buyer. Generally, between seller and buyer of keris know well each other. On the other hand, if we follow tradition to larung (throw away) it, as you said, it should be considered as destroying arecheological artefacts and littering.

What do you suggest, Kiai?

Warm salam,

Usman

[A. G. Maisey]

In reference to "ruwat & sukerta", those who would like to obtain a better understanding of this will find a good reference in "Javanese Traditional and Ritual Ceremonies", Suryo S. Negoro, CV Buana Raya, Surakarta, 2001.This book is in English.

[Kiai Carita]

Kiai Carita,

It is interesting. In one side, if we sell a keris that we believe it has bad influence to the owner, we will feel guilty to its buyer. Generally, between seller and buyer of keris know well each other. On the other hand, if we follow tradition to larung (throw away) it, as you said, it should be considered as destroying arecheological artefacts and littering.

What do you suggest, Kiai?

Warm salam,

Usman

Mas Usman, sorry for not yet responding to your PM, but yes, I have some other translations of macapat (read four) songs. However these are still changing, it is not easy to get the English to be able to feel close to the Jawanese.

As to selling a keris that you feel is bad without feeling bad, this can be achieved by letting the buyer know. If you can't find a buyer, you should always be able to find someone who would be happy to take it, especially in Jawa there are many people who pride themselves in being able to neutralize bad spiritual forces. In the west, a small museum might be interested. Larung in the sea is a very bad option, makes me think of Anton Lucas' "The Dog is Dead, Throw it in the River" piece about how we (Indonesians) treat our rivers. What if some child is playing on the beach and falls on the larunged keris?

The ketoprak story I remember goes: Arya Penangsang was killed by his keris, because Gagak Rimang, his stallion was in heat. Gagak Rimang reared unexpectedly giving Sutawijaya an oportunity to badly gash Penangsang's stomach till his intestines fell out. Penangsang hanged them back round his keris and continued fighting till he had Sutawijaya pinned, and forgeting that his intestines were hanging around his keris, drew his keris to stab Sutawijaya but instead severed his own intestines and died. Setan Kober killed him, but so did Sutawijaya's tombak. Was not this tombak Kiai Plered? Later I believe that Kiai Plered was used successfully again in battle, to kill a Dutch commander, making it seem that Pusaka tosan aji were also still used in battle after they had been passed down through the generations.

Nowadays, Penangsang is a hero in Blora and northen parts of Jawa, but he is a antagonist in Mataram II centres.

Mas Usman, special for you while I am here, I am sure you know this macapat song about young Jaka Tingkir, one generation back from the death of Arya Penangsang.

Sigra milir
Sang gethek sinangga bajul
Kawandasa kang njagani
Ing ngarso miwah ing pungkur
Tanepi ing kanan kering
Sang gethek lampahnya alon.

Floating so slow
My raft is pushed by crocodiles
Forty beasts surrounding me
In the front and in the rear
On my right and on my left
My raft is floating oh so slow.

warm salaams,
Bram

[PenangsangII]

Salam,

Kiai Carita, I believe that song is a narration of Jaka Tingkir's journey to Demak along with his 2 companions / lieutenants to win back Sultan Trenggono's trust after he was banished from the palace for seducing the sultan's princess.

Eventually, Mas Karebet managed to kill a bull that had run amuk near sultan's platform. The sultan finally agreed to marry off his daughter to Mas Karebet.

Well, the confusing part is, why would the sultan agree to marry off his daughter to a commoner like Jaka Tingkir? Wouldnt it be Arya Penangsang, who hailed from a noble family, more qualified?

In the folk lores, according to my late grandfather, Arya Penangsang's kanuragan level was a lot higher compared to the rest of the noblemen, hence nobody even dared to fight him face to face, even after it was found out that he was the man behind the murder of Sultan Trenggono.

[Kiai Carita]

Salam,

Kiai Carita, I believe that song is a narration of Jaka Tingkir's journey to Demak along with his 2 companions / lieutenants to win back Sultan Trenggono's trust after he was banished from the palace for seducing the sultan's princess.

Eventually, Mas Karebet managed to kill a bull that had run amuk near sultan's platform. The sultan finally agreed to marry off his daughter to Mas Karebet.

Well, the confusing part is, why would the sultan agree to marry off his daughter to a commoner like Jaka Tingkir? Wouldnt it be Arya Penangsang, who hailed from a noble family, more qualified?

In the folk lores, according to my late grandfather, Arya Penangsang's kanuragan level was a lot higher compared to the rest of the noblemen, hence nobody even dared to fight him face to face, even after it was found out that he was the man behind the murder of Sultan Trenggono.

The Sultan was in fear that Arya Penangsang was plotting to become King of Jawa. Arya Penangsang was killed through the strategy of making his horse uncontrolable, but even when badly wounded he still was too strong a fighter. He killed himself by accident while he was winning the fight.

Salam hangat,
Bram

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Kia Carita, Penangsang II and kerislovers,

Back to the spirit and the folk lores, what was the role of Kiai Setan Kober? How was the spirit of Kiai Setan Kober? Why was Kiai Setan Kober metioned specially in the folk lores?

Kerislovers, do you have a keris which its dhapur/shape is Setan Kober. May you share its pictures, please?

According to De Graff [?] book: The Fall of Islamic Mataram, there was a rebellion lead by a nobleman during Amangkurat reign. In one day battle, the nobleman who led rebellion run amok. A lot of Mataram soldiers were killed. The nobleman finally exhausted and was killed accidently by his own keris. It was believed that his keris pusaka was "dhapur" (shape) Setan Kober.

warm salam,

Usmen
ps: Thank you, Kiai Carita, for sending mocopat (read four) song. I will sing that song here...in africa :)

[PenangsangII]

Dear Pak Raden & Kerislovers,

I cannot recollect exactly what my late grandfather told me about 20 years ago, but if I am not mistaken, Kiai Setan Kober had even number of loks, most probably 12 loks. But I never saw or heard dapur Setan Kober before. Perhaps other forumites have more information to offer?

Also, there is a very powerful "Ilmu Pengasih" attributed to Setan Kober ;) .

[David]

Also, there is a very powerful "Ilmu Pengasih" attributed to Setan Kober ;) .

How best would you translate "Ilmu Pengasih"?

[HanaChu69]

Greetings everyone,

It’s a joy being able to network and widen circle of keris collectors friends from around the globe. In addition, you will be able to gain valuable insights on both Malaysian and Indonesian kerises.

Usman – In your earlier posting, there was an indication that a spear spirit has influence not only on the beholder but also on the surrounding community. Can you elaborate in what way exactly?

Sepokal – Wa’alaikumsalam, thank you on your views from a Malay perspective. It’s not easy to be chosen as a successor of “pusaka” with terms and conditions apply. It involves heavy responsibility abiding and observing them. Do take good care of it, my friend.

Penangsang – I have to disagree with you on being at a disadvantage for having mixed parentage. It can be confusing but vice versa for me. In fact I’m blessed being able to understand two different Indonesian dialects and their culture (reading in progress). The remedy is to make positive adjustment and all will turn out fine.

Bram & Ganjawulung – Thank you for the clarification on “ruwat” and “sukerto”. I strongly discourage “larunging” a keris and rather find other alternative solution instead. I’m a go for green person as in “Save the Earth” and avoid pollution. On the other hand, I would like to know how to go about neutralizing them. Is there any other thread that link to this topic?

Pak Alan – Thanks for the referencing. I will check it out and revert on anything interesting.

David – “ilmu pengasih” is the art of attracting men/women (polite term used). I would very much love to see the keris especially with the name of spirit that has “kiai” and “setan” in them.

Best regards,
Hana

P.S - Pardon me for the many questions asked. I believe in the proverbs “He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever”.

[A. G. Maisey]

On the subject of getting rid of troublesome keris, and other wesi aji.

During my lifetime I have been given more than15 keris and tombak and other wesi aji by various people. About half of the items given were given because it was believed that they were a source of problems, the other half were given for various reasons, some because the owner did not want the trouble and responsibility of looking after it any longer, some to bond friendship, one little group of keris and tombak were given by a stranger acting on the directions of her dead husband who had visited her in a dream. In the cases of two of the keris given because it was believed that they were causing problems, after I accepted responsibility for these keris, the fortunes of their previous custodians improved remarkably.In one case the improvement was almost instantaneous. Whether or not it was the keris causing the problems remains open to question, but it is absolutely certain that the previous custodians of these keris believed that once they had relieved themselves of the problem wesi aji, they were also relieved of their problems.

[ganjawulung]

I cannot recollect exactly what my late grandfather told me about 20 years ago, but if I am not mistaken, Kiai Setan Kober had even number of loks, most probably 12 loks. But I never saw or heard dapur Setan Kober before. Perhaps other forumites have more information to offer?

Also, there is a very powerful "Ilmu Pengasih" attributed to Setan Kober ;) .

Dear Penangsang,
This is about the name of "setan kober". According to an interpretation (my friend, a lecturer in University of Indonesia), actually the name of Ario Penangsang's keris was misinterpreted. Commonly commited error in the past, people mentioned the Ario's keris as "setan kober". So what is in this name? Literally no reasonable meaning of it. "Setan" means satan, or devil. And "Kober" means "to have sufficient" time.

According to my friend's interpretation (he is still studying it), actually not "setan kober", but "sih tan ka uber" or in Indonesian language "kasih tak sampai" (unmaterialized love). Relating to the "unmaterialized love" of Ario Penangsang and the daughter of Sultan Tranggono. The passion of Ario at that time...

Ganjawulung

[PenangsangII]

Pak Ganja and other forumites,

The problem with oral tradition is that sometimes the original story and characters or even meaning are lost thru generations. Your lecturer friend indeed made sense, because until now I still dont understand the meaning of Setan Kober.

But there is another probable reason why Arya Penangsang had named his keris Setan Kober. It was said that he went to an empu to commission a powerful keris in anticipation of battle against the famous pusaka belonging to Jaka Tingkir - Kiai Plered. The keris was forged by the empu with the calling of all spirits of Tanah Jawa to reside in it thus the name Setan Kober.

[ganjawulung]

This is another interpretation, related to Ario Penangsang. According to Mr Bambang Harsrinuksmo, the accessory of Javanese bride, laces of jasmine around the bride's keris (see the picture), also related to Ario Penangsang legend.

In the folklore, according to Mr Bambang, Danang Sutawijaya from Pajang succeded to stab the side of Ario Penangsang with his spear Kiai Plered. And the intestines of Ario was hang out of the side. Ario was still upright on his horse, Gagak Rimang. Even, Ario could push Sutawijaya. In the critical situation, Ario wanted to stab Sutawijaya who no longer showed any movement. but unfortunately, the intestines of Ario was cut by his own keris. (See Setan Kober, Kyai -- Ensiklopedi Keris by Bambang Harsrinuksmo)

Sutawijaya, according to Bambang Harsrinuksmo, was very impressed with the heroism of Ario Penangsang. And Sutawijaya realised, he was "saved" by the good fortune. He then ordered all his descents to respect the heroism of Ario Penangsang. The laces of jasmine in every Javanese bride's keris, is only a symbol for such honor to Penangsang...

Ganjawulung

[PenangsangII]

Nice pics :)

No truer or more genuine compliment / mark of respect / admiration but from your enemy!!!

BTW, all the Tanah Jawa spirits combined still could not save Arya Penangsang from God's plan, and also from himself.....

[HanaChu69]

Good day everyone,

Pak Alan – I hope you don’t mind me asking. Can I know what you did to the 15 troublesome pieces of keris and tombak? Did you allocate a special place for them? Did you neutralize them? I sure hope that they bring you good luck and not trouble.

Penangsang – Believe in fate. No matter how invincible you are. You will surely die one day.

Best regards,
Hana

[A. G. Maisey]

Hana, I did absolutely nothing other than to accept what I was given, and proceed to look after these pieces as I would any others. Some required no work except cleaning and oiling. Others required varying amounts of work. All were put into good condition and simply added to a particular drawer where I keep all wesi aji that is given to me.

No offerings, no neutralisation, no sleeping with them under my pillow, no consultations with wise men.

Nothing except giving them the care and respect they deserved.

They may have been troublesome to some other people, they have been no trouble at all to me.

[Pusaka]

Let’s say it is possible to imbue a blade with an energy field, call it spirit if you like but what type of material would best suit this purpose?

As an analogy I would like to consider the basic bar magnet. There are many types of magnets, natural loadstone, common steel magnetized (the first manufactured magnets), nickel steel and super strong rare earth magnets. The nature of the magnetic field in all of these substances is the same however some materials when energized (magnetized) will retain that magnetism for a longer period of time.
We conclude that it is possible to magnetize several materials but some make better magnets then others.

In terms of magnets what type of material makes the strongest magnet?
As stated previously rare earth magnets are the strongest type of magnets available. One variety of magnet which is extremely strong contains three main ingredients, nickel, ferrite and a rare earth element. The smallest quantity of rare earth element when added to a nickel iron compound will boost its magnetic properties.

Meteorites often contain iron, nickel and rare earth elements. A kris forged from meteorite should be more magnetic then a steel blade.
I was once told that a keris made from meteorite was better able to hold a spirit, I read earlier in this thread that a keris made from meteorite was able to hold a spirit because it is yin.
I will however say that a keris made from meteorite is better because it contains rare earth elements which makes it a suitable object to be energized and retain that original energy for a longer period of time.

All magnets become weak over time if they are not remagnetized, all keris will likewise become weak if their energy if not maintained in a correct manner.

It is not mystical, its Scientific;)

[David]

Pusaka, nice to hear from you again. :)
My opinion is this - spirit is not a piece of iron and i don't think magnetic attraction will make any difference...unless you believe it wll. Maybe i do. ;)
When enbuing an object with spirit, the best material to use is the one the best makes some sort of logical sense in the hardwiring of your brain. Spiritual and magickal practices are very personal ones and while we are all influenced by larger cultural concerns what we each believe can sometimes be very specific (and somewhat different from our fellows). Personally i like the concept of the magnet as a metaphor for my mind and i always regularly reinforce the magnetic fields of all my keris. But i don't think it is "science" per se. I would never suggest that anyone else should do this, it is just part of my personal practice and something which works well with the software already input into my mind. But someone else may have an old hatpin from their favorite weird great aunt that has deep magickal significance to them that they might feel is the perfect material to embue and hold spirit. Maybe they want to melt it down and put it in their keris. :shrug:

[pakana]

Hello to all of you,

I would like to express my opinion in the "keris-spirit" matter. We should't forget the fact that an empu in the past when he got the order of making a keris,had to follow some "rules" in order to make a strong keris. That means fasting, pay attention to certain rituals, praying to God. It wasn't just the strong intention of the maker only. He had to make offerings also to the spirit, as well as "giving" a name to the keris, which he revealed only to the owner, because anyone who had access to that name, could use the power of the keris for himself.

The usage of metal was very important, because of the yin element of it. Together with the usage of meteor material,was literaly the "marriage" of sky(meteor) and the earth(iron). What I mean is that the making of a keris was a very tiring and demanding procedure, far more complicated than making a western sword or a katana. Not to mention also the artistic value of the keris.
I hope that this wonderful thread will continue, providing us beginers with useful information.

[Kiai Carita]

....Personally i like the concept of the magnet as a metaphor for my mind and i always regularly reinforce the magnetic fields of all my keris. But i don't think it is "science" per se. I would never suggest that anyone else should do this, it is just part of my personal practice and something which works well with the software already input into my mind. But someone else may have an old hatpin from their favorite weird great aunt that has deep magickal significance to them that they might feel is the perfect material to embue and hold spirit. Maybe they want to melt it down and put it in their keris. :shrug:

Salam keris everyone,

I am not very clever and often put both my feet in my mouth but I don't think that magnets (besi berani) have anything to do with keris spirits, unless you trust the wierd elaborations on the keris written by William Sanders available on www.cimande.com.

I have never heard magnets mentioned in Jawanese keris discussions. I have also never heard any Jawanese explain keris in the terms of Yin-Yang. The closest to Yin-Yang in Jawanese keris speak would be 'Ibu Bumi Bapa Angkasa' - mother earth father sky- which do appear in the mantras of mPu according to the late Bp. Bambang Harsrinuksma, but Yin Yang in the Chinese minde encompass more than the Ibu Bumi Bapa Angkasa do for the Jawanese .

In my opinion the spiritual stength of keris comes from:

1) The intention of the mPu and the metals he uses.
2) The mind of the owner.
3) The collective minds of the community where the keris resides, which can be very much influenced by the history of the keris.

And while I am here on my expensive but slow dial-up in the styx, special for Raden Usman in Africa (ngapain lu disane Raden? - what are you doing there Raden in Betawi dialect) .... you must all know the macapat called dandanggula -pot of sweetness? - (I translate gula to sweetness because of the negative feelings the modern world has now for sugar while in Jawa gula is meant to be lovely). Sing this in the night, with feeling. Appologies to forumites who hate poetry. I only have two keris and one tombak with no camera, and also my keris are pusaka I feel reluctant to photograph, please forgive me for never being able to producew photos. The other keris I have for a while always come from our own Mans(ur) Hidayat in Surabaya which I give away as gifts -BTW I think he is an honest and knowledgeable keris seller comparable to our sesepuh Pak Alan Maisey (Mr G'day Mate, nuwun sewu - thousand pardons)...

Macapat Dandanggula

Ana kidung rumeksa ing wengi
Teguh hayu luput hing lelara
Luput hing bilahi kabeh
Jim setan dhatan doyan
Paneluhan tan hana wani
Miwah panggawe ala
Gunane wong luput
Geni atemahan tirta
Maling adoh tan wani perak mring mami!
Guna tuju pan sirna!

Read four, pot of sweetness....

There is a song
Vibrating through the night
Strong and fair protecting from disease
Protecting from all misfortune
Evil spirits hate the taste
Black magic doesn't even dare
And those who would do ill
The arts of the lost ones
Fire killed by cold water
Pirates from far don't you dare cross my path tonight
All your knowledge'll come to nought!

Back to the subject, please tell me where magnets and yin-yang are important in Jawanese kerisology (not Caliofornian kerisology)

Warm salaams,
Bram.

[Pusaka]

Hello David, I know I am a bit of a wonderer but I do like to visit occasionally:D

Kiai,

I need to explain myself clearer because I think my analogy has confused everyone:D
The energy that flows through a keris blade is not common magnetism and neither is it produced by magnets in any way. I don’t agree with Mr. Sanders if he says it is, actually I don’t agree much with anything Mr. Sanders says but that’s just me. I used the analogy of a bar magnet simply to say that the material a keris is made from can affect its ability to carry a current/energy just in the same manner the material from which a bar magnet is composed of can produce a strong magnet or a weak magnet. A keris blade is not made with magnets and neither are they traditionally used to energies the keris. I have noticed however that some keris are slightly magnetic, put the blade near a magnetic compass. Today when we use the term magnetism it means one thing however in the passed the Victorians acknowledged different types of magnetism for example animal magnetism (a concept similar to the Indian concept of Prana and the Chineese concept of Qi/Chi.


Regards

D

[pakana]

Greetings everyone,

I noticed that some of the forumites felt a little strange with the usage of the chinese word Yin.My purpose was to make the distinction about the spiritual side of the keris,by using the word Yin, which refers to the spirit world. We, us humans, we are characterised as Yang creatures(because we have flesh and bones), while the spirits that don't have actual existance, are refered as Yin creatures. So, a keris "resident" is a Yin creature.I used chinese terms,because they are more familiar to the western world.Also I don't know javanese :shrug:

regards

[David]

Hello David, I know I am a bit of a wonderer but I do like to visit occasionally:D
I have always considered myself a bit of a wonderer as well, though i assume that what you meant to say is that you are a wanderer. :D Anyway, glad you wandered by.
Bram, i think i am pretty much on the same page as you and i certainly never meant to imply that magnetism has any traditional place in the understanding of keris spirits. There are many elements of my personal practice which have nothing to do with traditional Indonesian practices. Sorry if i confused you.
Pakana, i am not so sure that i would regard a chunk of iron ore meteorite "yin" simply because it falls from the sky. Place of origin is not always a very good factor in this determination. Man (yang) is, afterall, born of woman (yin). Infact, i would be much more inclined to consider meteorite as "yang". It is extremely dense stuff and hits the earth with great force and velocity. Very yang elements in my book. ;) :D
I would also be very hesitant to say that the making of a keris is a "far more complicated" procedure than the making of a katana. If this had been posted on the general forum you would probably be hear quite a bit more about that by now. :D

[Pusaka]

I have always considered myself a bit of a wonderer as well, though i assume that what you meant to say is that you are a wanderer. :D

BWHAhaha...yep thats what I meant lol

[pakana]

David,

I didn't said that a meteorite is Yin because of it's origin from the sky.I just said that a keris blade(with it's "resident") is consider to be yin(using again the chinese term) because of it's spirit inside. ;)

[David]

Sorry...that seemed to be the implication i was getting with the concept of the combination of earth iron and meteorite being a marriage of Earth and Sky.
You wrote: The usage of metal was very important, because of the yin element of it. Together with the usage of meteor material,was literaly the "marriage" of sky(meteor) and the earth(iron).
Metal working itself seems pretty yang to me though i do suppose as an inanimate object any metal could be considered yin. :confused: :shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

In the National Musium in Jakarta is a lingga taken from Candi Sukuh. A big lingga, nearly two meters long, and five feet around.

On this lingga is an image of a keris and alongside it an inscription, which says in part:-

"--- the sign of masculinity is the essence of the world---"

In the Nawanatya (14th century) we find:-

"---the criss, a token of manfulness, has its place at the front---"

In old Jawa the keris was given as an award to a man for displaying bravery in battle.

The keris is a yin object?

Interesting thought.


May I most humbly suggest that it could be useful to refrain from mixing Chinese philosophy with Javanese and European philosophy.

All three schools require extended periods of study in order to gain an adequate understanding of the concepts involved; it is already difficult enough for most of us to try to understand Javanese philosophies, working from a European base. Let us not make things even more difficult by introducing Chinese philosophies.

[David]

May I most humbly suggest that it could be useful to refrain from mixing Chinese philosophy with Javanese and European philosophy.

All three schools require extended periods of study in order to gain an adequate understanding of the concepts involved; it is already difficult enough for most of us to try to understand Javanese philosophies, working from a European base. Let us not make things even more difficult by introducing Chinese philosophies.

I think i must agree. Recouncilling these different schools of can be quite impossible. All one needs to do is look at the differences in the Chinese and European concepts of the 5 elements to see that aspects of these systems are not very compatable. :)

[PenangsangII]

Dear all,

I think we cannot discount the possibility of Chinese influence with regards to the natural balace of Yin & Yang. We are aware that the Chinese have sailed around the world long before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

[Pusaka]

In my mind a meteorite is yang, I can’t see how it could be considered yin. If you think of the analogy of fertilization then the Earth would represent the ovum/egg whilst the meteorite with its fiery tale would represent the sperm. A meteorite is yang (hot, dry, hard, masculine) whilst the Earth is Yin (watery, earthy, feminine) I think I have heard Indonesians refer to mother Earth and Father sky.

Spirit however might be considered Yin, so we have a Yin spirit in a Yang material, opposites attract?

[PenangsangII]

Dear forumites,

Although the definition of Yin & Yang between the Chinese & Javanese may slightly differ because of other cultural difference in perception, in principle they are the same (what ever the Javanese referred them). Yes Pusaka, I agree with you.

[ganjawulung]

Dear all,

I think we cannot discount the possibility of Chinese influence with regards to the natural balace of Yin & Yang. We are aware that the Chinese have sailed around the world long before Christopher Columbus discovered America.
This is just another illustration on the Chinese influence on Indonesian culture. The first king of Islamic kingdom of Demak, Raden Patah (1478-1518), is the son of the last King Brawijaya (Majapahit) and Princess of Champa -- China. The Chinese name of Raden Patah is Jin Bun.

One of the 13 kings/queens and 2 rulers of Majapahit, is a real Chinese. He was Nyoo Lay Wa (1478-1486), after Majapahit was attacked and conquered by Jin Bun of Demak. The king of Majapahit at that time was Kertabhumi, the father of Jin Bun... That's only a few influence of Chinese to Javanese in the past. (See, "The Fall of Javanese-Hindu Kingdom and the Rise of Islamic States in Nusantara" by Prof Dr Slamet Muljana, 1968)

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

There can be no doubt that Chinese culture has influenced the cultures of maritime South East Asia, including much of present day Indonesia and including Jawa. However, there have been other major cultural influences on Javanese culture also, apart from that core part of Javanese culture which is indigenous.

If one is traditional Chinese, and has an excellent understanding of Chinese philosophy, it may be possible for one to transpose the yin-yang of Chinese philosophy onto Javanese culture in an attempt to come to some understanding of Javanese philosophy. However, this would be a Chinese understanding of Javanese philosophy.

If one is of European origin, and has an excellent understanding of one or more of the schools of European philosophy, it may be possible to transpose some of those European concepts onto Javanese culture, in an attempt to understand the philosophies guiding that Javanese culture, but again, this would be a European understanding of Javanese philosophy.

The element of Javanese indigenous philosophy which seems to come closest to the Chinese idea of yin-yang is the well known Javanese principle of dualism, however, this principle does not appear to be an assimilation of Chinese philosophy and its adaptation to the Javanese cultural framework, rather it appears to be an idea woven into the original fabric of Javanese thought. If we transpose concepts foriegn to Javanese culture onto that culture in our attempts to understand elements and ideas that form a part of the culture, then what we are doing is perhaps of assistance to us as individuals to allow us to come to terms with a Javanese idea within a framework that we can understand.

In the present example, if we are Chinese and we liken Javanese dualism to the Chinese concept of yin-yang, then as Chinese we have reconstructed a complex Javanese idea in a form that allows us a limited understanding of that Javanese principle. However, the key word here is "limited". If we are to have an understanding of the Javanese principle, as it is understood in a traditional Javanese context, then we need to make the effort to understand Javanese culture and society, and the philosophic principles which are the weft of the fabric of that culture, and of that society. Only by doing this can we come to a position where we may see and try to understand elements within a culture which are of that culture.

[kai]

Hello pak Ganja,

Please excuse a small correction:

This is just another illustration on the Chinese influence on Indonesian culture. The first king of Islamic kingdom of Demak, Raden Patah (1478-1518), is the son of the last King Brawijaya (Majapahit) and Princess of Champa -- China.
The kingdom(s) of Champa had little to do with China and were never under rule of any ethnic Han AFAIK: as wet rice growers, their territory focused on the narrow plains along the central mountain range of today's Vietnam. They rose to regional power and wealth by their ports being a major stepping stone for the maritime trade and converted to Hindu culture like contemporary kingdoms in continental Southeast Asia (cp. Angkor Wat) as well as throughout the SEA archipelago (e.g. Majapahit). Thus, it's not surprising that they kept close ties with Khmer, Javanese, Sumatran, Malayan royal families...

Regards,
Kai

[Pusaka]

Because a culture recognizes the existence of duality dose not mean it is Chinese yin/yang influence. Every culture on Earth have known and understood the existence of duality since ancient times. The western equivilint of Yin and yang is Sol and Luna (literally Sun and moon). Likewise the five elements have been understood by all ancient civilizations, it dose not mean they also got it from the Chinese.

Chinese five elements: water,wood,fire,metal,earth

Western five elements: earth,fire,water,air,quintessence

The concept of the five elements is also understood by the Indonesians if I remember correctly (Bumi,air,angina,api,besi.

Indian culture also have this knowledge. Thing is when we hear the concept of duality or the five elements mentioned people think it must be Chinese philosophy, completely incorrect.

[A. G. Maisey]

Pusaka, I have the feeling that your most recent post is directed at what I have written.

If I am incorrect in this, then please ignore my further comment, however, if I am correct, are you quite certain that you have understood what I have written?

[David]

It is indeed true that many different cultures have come to understand the universe and their environments with similarly structured systems of thought, but as Alan states, they all have very indigenous understandings through these stuctures and one system cannot be automatically substitited for another. For instance, there is, as Pusaka states, a system of 5 elements that exists both in Western European occult practices and in Chinese philosophies. But even if you examine the 3 elements that are common to these systems, Earth, Fire and Water, i beieve you will find vastly different meanings and correspondences to them. Yes, the 5 elements may have been understood by many different cultures, but these understandings do not necessarily amount to the same "truth".

[Pusaka]

Pusaka, I have the feeling that your most recent post is directed at what I have written.

If I am incorrect in this, then please ignore my further comment, however, if I am correct, are you quite certain that you have understood what I have written?

No not meant to be a response to what you wrote but more generally if during the manufacture of a keris the Indonesians consider the marriage of the dual natures of iron from earth and meteorite from sky it should not be considered Chinese influence. I’m just saying that many cultures have the ability to understand such concepts without consulting or borrowing from the Chinese, such things are universal and universally understood by all cultures.

[Kiai Carita]

Hello pak Ganja,

Please excuse a small correction:


The kingdom(s) of Champa had little to do with China and were never under rule of any ethnic Han AFAIK: as wet rice growers, their territory focused on the narrow plains along the central mountain range of today's Vietnam. They rose to regional power and wealth by their ports being a major stepping stone for the maritime trade and converted to Hindu culture like contemporary kingdoms in continental Southeast Asia (cp. Angkor Wat) as well as throughout the SEA archipelago (e.g. Majapahit). Thus, it's not surprising that they kept close ties with Khmer, Javanese, Sumatran, Malayan royal families...

Regards,
Kai

Interesting point about Putri Cempa. Cheng ho's armada visited Majapahit and Tuban though... there was a lot of Chinese influence during the times when China ruled the waves. Also it appears that to the Jawanese all lighter skined Asian foreigners were thought of as Campa / China. For a long time we thought that the Mongols of Kubilai Khan with their Korean horses (now still in Jawa called Jaran Kore), the Campans, and the several tribes of China were one and the same people. Maybe a little like in rural Jawa to this day every white person is Londo, Dutch.

Salams all,
Bram

[HanaChu69]

Definition of Yin and Yang

Yīn (陰 or 阴 "shady place, north slope, south bank (river); cloudy, overcast"; Japanese: in or on) is the dark element: it is passive, dark, feminine, downward-seeking, and corresponds to the night.

Yáng (陽 or 阳 "sunny place, south slope, north bank (river), sunshine"; Japanese: yō) is the bright element: it is active, light, masculine, upward-seeking and corresponds to the daytime.

Yin is often symbolized by water and earth, while yang is symbolized by fire and wind.

Yin (the receptive, feminine, dark, passive force) and yang (the creative, masculine, bright, active force) are descriptions of complementary opposites rather than absolutes. Any yin/yang dichotomy can be viewed from another perspective. All forces in nature can be seen as having yin and yang states, and the two are in movement rather than held in absolute stasis.


Metal (Classification Elements)

“Metal, or gold, is one of the five elements of Chinese alchemy. The archetypal metals are silver and gold. Metal is associated with the west and autumn, the planet Venus and the colour white. It is believed to govern the lungs. It is associated with organization and stability.

Other qualities associated with metal are unyieldingness, persistence, strength and determination. The metal person is forceful and set in their ways as metal is very strong, but they are self-reliant and enjoy the good things in life. The element metal plays an important role in Chinese astrology and feng shui, the Chinese form of geomancy.”

[HanaChu69]

Greetings,

I would like to highlight some points on the given comments. It’s cool to exchange views…

Pusaka – The analogy did not confuse me at all. If I place myself looking at the views from your angle, I’m able to relate per se.

Bram & Pak Alan – I have the same opinion with both of you. It could be that our mind set (school of thoughts) and “olah rasa” inner/spiritual feeling tells us differently. That’s the reason why our view on Ying and Yang totally doesn’t relate with the Javanese keris culture.

Penangsang – You are right, in principle; they are almost similar but different context. In Chinese philosophy, metal element is applicable to human being generically used in Geomancy; Chinese Astrology and Feng Shui. In Javanese keris philosophy, it is specifically termed to the spirit of the keris such as “Kiai Setan Kober” etc.

This is my perception. Do feel free to comment.

Sincerely,
Hana

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your response, Pusaka.

I was afraid that you may have misunderstood the direction and intent of my comments, as I used the word "element" to refer to an element of a philosophy, and then you used the word "element" to refer to physical, rather than abstract concepts.

I now understand that you were making a broad ranging comment on universal cultural values.

Thank you

[sepokal]

Dear Mr Rahman & Hana,

About that thread in kampungnet, don't worry, it's all in the past. No hard feeling :) .

Actually, me & Sepokal were continuously attacked by a few forumites before we eventually had to defend ourselves and retaliated. I cant provide the link here as the thread was dumped into the rubbish bin, but if I remember correctly, I was accused of being the follower of paganism / jahiliyyah, Hinduistic, unislamic, a complete idiot and so on. Like David said, respecting other people's personal belief by giving arguments academically and without attacking other people's personality is the key of ethics in a forum. The one thing internet communication is, it's world wide, world without border. There is no way that a forum on internet should be targeted to certain types of people only, otherwise I would have told them that they had no business being in the sub-forum "keris collecting" as they had no respect to the keris.

Enough has been said, lets continue with the topic.

Dear Penangsang, it is rather sad to know such thing exist but that is how it is. As a Muslim, dua kalimah syahadah is essential in our life. Putting things where they belong is Justice or in Malay we call it Adil (Meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya). Zalim is when you do not put things to where they belongs. Hence, as a Muslim, Awalluddin Makrifatullah, is very important. The foremost in religion, is knowing Allah swt. Everything in this world is "makhluk". Respecting it in due respect is important. Why? Because we are all His creation. Respecting must come from understanding and knowing what you are respecting...another word, knowledge. When people starts to talk about mystical thing, please remember, Awalludin Makrifatullah. Now, as a Muslim, the knowledge came to us through our dearest and most loved Prophet, Rasulullah saaw. Hence, putting him at a place where he should not be, is Zalim and that itself, requires us as a Muslim to correct those who don't know, to know and gain knowledge, be it Muslim or non Muslim. Not doing this, is considered zalim. Rasulullah must never be misplaced. Even when discussing keris and mysticism, (especially that of Malay keris), Islam can never be separated from it.

Nevertheless, I've come a long way threading this path and a few hiccups will not stop me going. Believe it or not, I've met people who claimed that Malaikat bernafsu, hence, right now, it seems that nothing can surprise me anymore....especially when that experience where Rasulullah is not up to par to gain the knowledge of kashaf!!!

There is this story though, told to me by a pandai keris (in Malaysia). Regarding a fight between two warriors, one of that of Malay (maybe Patani) and another of Javanese. Both fight their very best, and they realise that both of them, can't harm each other with their keris due to both of them are Kebal. Hence, this Malay hulubalang set a standard where he told his nemesis, that if they were to continue fighting, it should be that both of them, should fight naked. The Javanese warrior doesn't want to do that, simply because, his kebal is due to him wearing an azimat, while the kebal of the Malay hulubalang is that of amalan. I know this might be wrongly interpreted by some forumers, especially that of Javenese origin. This story is not about who is stronger than who. My point is, the best of keris (to me), is that of amalan, not of "dampingan".... Hence, for Malays, keris must never be separated from amalan and religion and foremost for Malay's Keris is knowing that it is a weapon, not an artistic expression and being a weapon, it's job is to kill when requested to. Not doing that, is considered Zalim (tidak meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya). Hence, Malay keris that is considered lucky are those that protects it's owner's life when in danger. That luck comes from a certain part of the Malay Keris which is very much attached to Islam. Many a name given to parts of the Malay keris is with knowledge of understanding the need of a weapon that does not stray away from Islam :)
Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" through cracks.

Nevertheless, dampingan is not wrong to me (depending on certain conditions). Simply because, when we were born, we were born not alone (for those who knows) and Allah swt does not do things without good reasons.

Allah Hafiz
sepokal toh putih.

[Rick]

I would hate to see old arguments had on another forum be reborn or even referred to here .

Gentlemen; please tread carefully lest this wonderful thread be permanently closed .

Thanks :)

[David]

dua kalimah syahadah, Adil (Meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya), Awalluddin Makrifatullah, "makhluk", Malaikat bernafsu, kashaf, Kebal, hulubalang, azimat, amalan, "dampingan", tidak meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya, "isyarat"
:confused: :confused: :confused: :shrug:

C'mon Sepokal, you should know the terms of this forum by now. I do recognize a couple of these terms and i might be able to infer the meanings of a couple of others through your usage, but this is very clearly an English forum and if we are truly all going to understand each other it is imperative that we all communicate in a common language. I have no problem with other lamguages (in fact i encourage them) as long as an accurate translation is also provided. You host is, afterall, this English speaking forum. To do anything else would show the greatest disrespect.
As for what i clearly understand in your last post i will say this...Clearly there is more than just the Islamic interpretation of keris to be considered here. It was a Hindu weapon long before the coming of Islam to the region and before that its traditions may have been even more indigenous and animistic, traditions whose current continued through keris culture to this very day. I genuinely respect anyone"s way of relating to the keris in the spiritual tradition of their choice so your imperative to "correct" those who do not do this as you or Islam sees fit worries me greatly. Likewise you assertion that discussions of the keris and mysticism cannot be seperated from Islam is troublesome for me. This has been, IMO, a long and fruitful thread which i would like to see continue, but make no mistake, if the conversation degrades into a battle of religions and dogma i will shut it down in a heartbeat.
I am sorry if i may have misunderstood the underlying intention of your post, but if i have it only serves to demonstrate the ultimate importance of complete translations to assure everyone has a full understanding of the concepts being discussed.
Likewise, as Rick has already stated, old arguments from other forums need to stay there and not be brought into this forum.

[Alam Shah]

Hence, for Malays, keris must never be separated from amalan and religion and foremost for Malay's Keris is knowing that it is a weapon, not an artistic expression and being a weapon, it's job is to kill when requested to. Hmmm... your opinion seems absolute. I believe, it's the hand that guides the keris to do its intended task. Not an artistic expression? I beg to differ... if you choose to venture into it's simple-looking, sub-lime looks... you'll find the artistic expression, imho. ;)

Hence, Malay keris that is considered lucky are those that protects it's owner's life when in danger. I agree about the lucky part, but it does apply to all keris in general, though.

That luck comes from a certain part of the Malay Keris which is very much attached to Islam. Many a name given to parts of the Malay keris is with knowledge of understanding the need of a weapon that does not stray away from Islam :)A question: Why do certain Malays still regards that the Majapahit keris, have a strong supernatural element?

Majapahit is a Javanese-Hindu kingdom, it's empus are Hindus too. Many symbolism in the keris are Hindu inspired. Most likely the 'beings' within are too... (speculating).

Keris in the Malayan Peninsular have many influences from different belief system... the malay keris are likewise...

I find it rather disturbing... emphasizing that keris is Islamic.
What I do believe... names can be changed... ideals modified to follow suit...
For those whom are of different belief system, one would treat the keris within their own cultural/religious context...

Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" through cracks. Hmmm... in my opinion, this is make belief. When a smith is unable to forge properly a blade, this might be the excuse... imo only... hmmm. :confused:
Alan, you've made keris blades, care to elaborate, please?

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for the invite Alam Shah, but I'm going to stay out of this one.

Being a man who loves peace, and having a personal life that requires me to co-exist in harmony with Muslims, Taoists, Buddhists, Russian Orthodox, and devout atheists, I have learnt that debate about anything that somebody else firmly believes is a total waste of time.

All religions are belief systems.

I will walk 20 miles to avoid any sort of debate that touches on religion.

My response to all of Sepokal's post would simply be that he is entitled to believe whatever he wishes to believe. There is no profit for any of us in arguing for a different point of view.

[sepokal]

Dear David,

Please don't misinterpret me. First and foremost, the idea or concept that keris came from Hinduism can be contested. Many researchers of keris have stated that although, by default, it is recognised that keris originated or is inspired from Hinduism, but they were unable to prove otherwise. Hence, they presume through Candi Sukor Relief that Keris originated from Hinduism. If one were to look at the History of Patani and you might realised that Islam have came long before 1400. In fact, there are documents that states that Islam have arrived to this region as early as the third Khalif, which is Khalifah Osman. Keris is part of Patani's culture back then. In fact, it is used by the famous Wali Songo in their mission to spread Islam to this part of Asia. There are reasons to belief the forefathers of most of the Wali Songo, in which most of them are related to, was Sheikh Jamadil Al Kubra. He was very much active, during his time, in Patani (early 1300). Hence, to state for a fact that Keris originated from Hinduism just because of a relief discovered at Candi Sukor (dated 1400 plus) is still not strong enough.

As most of the forumers are more comfortable talking about keris and Hinduism, I don't see any reason why forumers should be uncomfortable to keris and Islam. Nevertheless, I understand that most of the forumers are discussing keris based on Javanese Keris hence, it is understandable when most reference book would be discussing Javanese keris as compared to Malay Keris. It is also understandable that, history wise, it will be based on these books too.

Regarding old argument, it's bygone, long time ago. Please don't close this thread as I have no intention to bring any old argument into this forum. Don't worry, if there are any who would like to challenge or create havoc in this forum, I'm sure the relevant people knows how to handle this. On my part, my writing is sincerely a must for my friends and those who knows.

Currently, I'm not into forum anymore. It just happen that my friend Penangsang requested from this forum my views and I did my best to explain. If anyone find my writings rather offensive, my apologies and you are welcome to delete it. :)

If you notice, I've not written in this forum, for like...forever, not until recently. There's is just too much to write about Malay Keris and it's mysticism. Unfortunately, (or rather fortunately), I'm more towards Malay Keris and it's hidden secrets. Malay keris is very much related to Islam. Hence, due to that fact I guess, probably it is not appropriate for me to discuss it here, where most are more familiar with Javanese keris. Again, my apologies.

[Alam Shah]

Hmmm... I guess I'll take a walk in the other direction... ;)
To each their own... :shrug:

[sepokal]

Hmmm... your opinion seems absolute. I believe, it's the hand that guides the keris to do its intended task. Not an artistic expression? I beg to differ... if you choose to venture into it's simple-looking, sub-lime looks... you're find the artistic expression, imho. ;)

I agree about the lucky part, but it does apply to all keris in general, though.

A question: Why do certain Malays still regards that the Majapahit keris, have a strong supernatural element?

Majapahit is a Javanese-Hindu kingdom, it's empus are Hindus too. Many symbolism in the keris are Hindu inspired. Most likely the 'beings' within are too... (speculating).

Keris in the Malayan Peninsular have many influences from different belief system... the malay keris are likewise...

I find it rather disturbing... emphasizing that keris is Islamic.
What I do believe... names are changed... ideals are modified to follow suit...
For those whom are of different belief system, one would treat the keris within their own cultural/religious context...

Hmmm... im my opinion, this is make belief. When a smith is unable to forge properly a blade, this might be the excuse... imo only... hmmm. :confused:

Alan, you've made keris blades, care to elaborate, please?

Dear Alam Shah,

Again I reiterate, it is not the artistic form that come first into making a Malay keris. First and foremost, it is a weapon. Artistic impression and artistitic interpretation is based on those who views it and as they say, Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What you call artistic, is not to some. While you consider the extreme curves on a keris to be beautiful, some might not view it so.

Regarding Keris Majapahit. Have you ever seen a real keris Majapahit? Read again what Bambang says about keris Majapahit / Keris Sajen.

"Keris sajen dibuat khusus untuk keperluan sesaji tetapi ada yang menyebutnya sebagai keris Majapahit padahal keris Majapahit bentuknya indah dan mutunya tinggi, tidak sederhana seperti keris Sajen."

in English, "Keris Sajen is made especially for "sesaji" but some calls it Keris Majapahit while that is not so as keris Majapahit is much more beautiful and of higher quality as compared to keris Sesaji".

My question is, then, what really is keris Majapahit? How does it looks like? :shrug:

The last Majapahit kingdom was located in what we called Kelantan right now. There is nothing disturbing about Islam and Keris. Why is such thoughts, exist I wonder? Disturbing to Islam or that to Keris?
:confused:

Alam Shah, pamor that exist in most Javanese keris are based on made belief too. I guess, it will always be part and parcel of keris lovers to go through this "made belief" stories. :)

Regards,
sepokal

[sepokal]

Thanks for the invite Alam Shah, but I'm going to stay out of this one.

Being a man who loves peace, and having a personal life that requires me to co-exist in harmony Muslims, Taoists, Buddhists, Russian Orthodox, and devout atheists, I have learnt that debate about anything that somebody else firmly believes is a total waste of time.

All religions are belief systems.

I will walk 20 miles to avoid any sort of debate that touches on religion.

My response to all of Sepokal's post would simply be that he is entitled to believe whatever he wishes to believe. There is no profit for any of us in arguing for a different point of view.

A path that should be taken by everyone. There is no harm done here I hope, because what I just did was to write accordingly to what was known to me and what was enquired.

Regards,
sepokal

[Alam Shah]

... Again I reiterate, it is not the artistic form that come first into making a Malay keris. First and foremost, it is a weapon. Greetings sepokal...
Hmmm... I re-read through my post again and I was wondering... :confused: did I ever mentioned or imply that artistic form comes first? Please re-read my post... what I've said was... if you look you'll find an artistic expression... crude but it's there. Keris in the Malay world is first and foremost a weapon, period.

Artistic impression and artistitic interpretation is based on those who views it and as they say, Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What you call artistic, is not to some. While you consider the extreme curves on a keris to be beautiful, some might not view it so.True, beauty is in the eye of the beholder... so don't assume what I deem as beautiful... If other do not find it artistic, so be it... no harm done. Each is entitled to their own opinion. :)

Regarding Keris Majapahit. Have you ever seen a real keris Majapahit? Read again what Bambang says about keris Majapahit / Keris Sajen.

"Keris sajen dibuat khusus untuk keperluan sesaji tetapi ada yang menyebutnya sebagai keris Majapahit padahal keris Majapahit bentuknya indah dan mutunya tinggi, tidak sederhana seperti keris Sajen."

in English, "Keris Sajen is made especially for "sesaji" but some calls it Keris Majapahit while that is not so as keris Majapahit is much more beautiful and of higher quality as compared to keris Sesaji".
I suggest you don't inscribe what was mentioned in Ensiklopedi Keris into stone. Take it with a large dose of salt. ;)

My question is, then, what really is keris Majapahit? How does it looks like? Maybe you should ask Javanese collectors... Pak Ganjawulung and Hidayat comes to mind... :D

The last Majapahit kingdom was located in what we called Kelantan right now.Hmmm... interesting... sorry my history is a bit 'rusty'. Perhaps someone else would like to comment... :cool:


There is nothing disturbing about Islam and Keris. Why is such thoughts, exist I wonder? Disturbing to Islam or that to Keris?
Hmmm... kindly re-read my post and try to understand it, please. :p

[PenangsangII]

Dear Kerislovers,

To say that keris comes from Hindu / Animistic culture per se is not quite accurate. If my mind serves correctly, Hinduism came to the Indian continent from the Aryans diasphora, and the present day true Aryans are Farsi people (people of Iran). So, there's a possibility that keris culture was brought to the Malay Archipelago by Iskandar Zulkarnaen (King Darius I) descendants after they had embraced Islam. In another word, It could also be Persian / Islamic Culture imbued in the early Islamic Malay kingdom of Champa in the 12th C. Thus the spiritual aspects are also partly Islamic. Just my 0.02 cents.

Warmest Salam & regards,

Penangsang

[David]

Sepokal, i hope you will go back, re-read what i and others have said, and try to find a better understanding in it.
Nowhere do i even suggest that it is inappropriate to discuss Malay keris (due to it's connection to Islam) nor am i uncomfortable with the discussion of keris and Islam either. In fact i encourage such discussion as it is obvious that in much of Indonesian and on the peninsula the keris is considered an Islamic weapon. I personally do not believe that the keris originates in Islam however. I did not say that i believe it originates in Hinduism either, though this is probably in my mind. I am even willing to entertain the notion that the keris pre-dates the influences of both these great religions. What i am not willing to entertain is debate on which is the "correct" religious or spiritual path from which to approach the keris from. Why this idea should translate in your mind into the idea that we do not or should not discuss Islam and the keris here remains a mystery to me. You are most certainly welcome to your own beliefs and to state them clearly in this forum. I certainly find nothing offensive about your beliefs or Islam in general (nor other belief systems for that matter). But what you wrote gave me the impression that you are not so tolerant of the beliefs of others that may be different form your own. Please forgive me is i have the wrong impression. Dogmatic thought that implies that your spiritual beliefs are somehow more "correct" than others will not be welcomed here. As Alan suggests, these are debates which cannot be won by any side and only leave the debaters angry with one another. They are wars not worth fighting and they wil not be fought on this forum. Period!
I do suggest that if you want to communicate your ideas here better that you start by providing English translation to the terms and phrases that i listed at the beginning of my last post. It will go a long way in breaking down any barriers of misunderstanding that may have formed between us. :)
As for Mojopahit keris, there have been numerous published examples of these keris and i am sure someone can provide you with so pictures soon. :)

[Alam Shah]

Dear Kerislovers,

To say that keris comes from Hindu / Animistic culture per se is not quite accurate. If my mind serves correctly, Hinduism came to the Indian continent from the Aryans diasphora, and the present day true Aryans are Farsi people (people of Iran). So, there's a possibility that keris culture was brought to the Malay Archipelago by Iskandar Zulkarnaen (King Darius I) descendants after they had embraced Islam. Hmmm... fuzzy history... ;) are there any archaeological findings, weapons of such nature or even one that resembles the keris... their weapons making methods during that period suggests otherwise...

In another word, It could also be Persian / Islamic Culture imbued in the early Islamic Malay kingdom of Champa in the 12th C. Thus the spiritual aspects are also partly Islamic. Just my 0.02 cents. If this is the case, why is there no legacy of such a weapon found around that region... hmmm... :confused:

[Alam Shah]

Just to set the record straight... I did not mention that keris is of Hindu origin. What I mentioned was Majapahit kerises are made during the Hindu period... Please read carefully... :p
Keris exist before that time as we've known already... ;)

[Pusaka]

I personally don’t believe that the keris has its roots as an Islamic weapon. If someone suggested to me that Stonehenge was built by Christians I would likewise disagree.
I think there is more evidence that points towards an vedic origin than an Islamic origin. It is true that the Vedic culture was introduced to India by the Aryans so maybe the keris has an Aryan origin?

[HanaChu69]

Greetings,

I agree that it’s great to exchange ideas but it looks like Tsunami has hit this thread…

Sepokal – I believe in “universal cultural keris values”. Appreciate if you could elaborate philosophy of the Malay keris for better understanding complete with referencing link (if any). Others may not be able to relate them in comparison to the Javanese keris. Some might be too busy to take the effort to read up on cultural values of the keris world.

Rick – I guess there’s no reason to panic. It’s only robust verbal discussion and not using keris or spiritual battle field. I’m sure that we will be able to forgive and forget with due respect of the coming New Year (Hari Raya Puasa).

David – I would like to highlight that sometimes it is difficult to translate Malay or Islamic terms to the English Language. The meaning and idea may get distorted. Viewers might get the wrong perception. This applies to other languages for one word can take you more than 10 sentences to elaborate including examples.

Pusaka – I like your creative thinking for always giving us time to reflect, pause and ponder. How did you derive with the above theory? Is there any correlation with Penangsang postings in the patrem thread? Is it possible for you to provide us with the factual referencing links?

Sincerely,
Hana

P.S – The beauty of universal languages will enable you to open gates of the respective culture and values with your eyes wide open….Amazing indeed!! :D

[Rick]

Rick – I guess there’s no reason to panic. It’s only robust verbal discussion and not using keris or spiritual battle field. I’m sure that we will be able to forgive and forget with due respect of the coming New Year (Hari Raya Puasa).

Thanks for your concern dear Hana ; I've been doing this too many years to panic. :D

I simply watch and warn.... and keep a bucket of water handy . ;) :D

With respect to the use of other languages in here; I feel very strongly that translations must be given;even if it is merely the gist of the idea otherwise people may feel ... uncomfortable not knowing what is being said . :(

People like the Moderators. :)

Warmest wishes,

Rick

[David]

Hana, thank you for your thoughtful post. I do, of course, agree with you that it isn't always easy to translate words and concepts from one cultural reality to another. But if it takes 10 word or 10 paragraphs to successfully translate an idea it must be done, otherwise why bother writing it to begin with. What is written in this forum must be useful to all, not just a select few who understand the terms being thrown about. While ideas my get distorted from time to time it is better than half the audience or more having absolutely no understanding of the terms being used. I am afraid that if we are going to come to any understanding we must make the effort to translate no matter how difficult it may seem. :)

[Pusaka]

Pusaka – I like your creative thinking for always giving us time to reflect, pause and ponder.

Well that is most refreshing to know :D

How did you derive with the above theory?

Firstly I know that the keris was in Indonesia before the coming of Islam so if it was in Indonesia before the coming of Islam then it would make one think that its origins cant be Islamic.

Secondly if we were to study weapons in the homeland of Islam will we see anything that could at a later date have mutated into a keris? Is there a tradition of using pamor in those weapons. Is there a tradition of using meteorite in those weapons.

Thirdly art, what dose Islamic art look like? Dose it permit the depiction of nature in art. I recall reading that one of the first observations of a keris in Indonesia records a straight blade with a bone handle carved in the form of a human. The human form handle is also displayed in the earliest keris. Is this something that we would expect to see in Islamic art, the literal depiction of the human form?
Nagas, elephants, winged horses, dragons, birds are these things we would expect to see in Islamic art or Indian art? If we look at Islamic art do we see any of those things depicted literally?

Fourthly, make a study of ancient Vedic art and weapons and you might find images that make you ponder.

Fifthly the rituals that surround the keris, making weapons with supposed spirits trapped inside, is that even permitted in the Islamic religion, the use of spirits?

Is there any correlation with Penangsang postings in the patrem thread?

No I have not read that thread yet, but will do so.

Is it possible for you to provide us with the factual referencing links?

No its no more possible for me to prove that the keris is of Indian/Aryan origin any more than it is possible for someone to prove that the keris is an Islamic weapon. In the end it comes to personal beliefs.

[A. G. Maisey]

I have just finished reading the most recent posts to this thread.

I am a little disappointed that such ill informed comments are being made in respect of origin, development and spread of the keris.

Yes, I have written on this, but I do not ask anybody to accept without question that which I have written. Setting aside my own work, there is adequate evidence available to point anybody who can read in the direction of discovery for themselves.

Regretably this evidence is for the most part contained in books that are only available in large or specialised libraries; it cannot be accessed with a mouseclick. What this means for those who do not have access to such libraries is that they must avail themselves of material that is available on the net. Much of the material available on the net in this field draws upon these previously mentioned library sources.

Possibly a little time spent in research may be more valuable for some of us than the attempted support of insupportable opinions.

google can work wonders.

[rahman]

This thread is getting more interesting, and for the same reasons similar discussions in KampungNet got thrown into the Garbage Bin.

Methinks, rather than the forumers try to prove/disprove sepokal's thesis, the burden of proof should rest on him.

He has made some interesting claims about the Islamic origin of the keris, along with others -- such as the last Majapahit kingdom being based in Kelantan. He now needs to show us evidence to back his claims.

That is after all the foundation of learned discussion.

[David]

I can assure you all that this thread as a whole will not find it's way into any "garbage bin", though there is always the chance that offensive or highly disrespectful posts could get deleted. So far nothing written here qualifies for such drastic measures and i trust it will remain so. :)
I agree with Rahman. Since the commonly accepted wisdom as i understand it does not seem to support Sepokal's theory it would seem logical that it would be up to him to present convincing evidence to the contrary. Good luck with that. :)

[PenangsangII]

Salam to all keris afficionados,

If every single theory needed to be backed up by scientific findings, archaelogical artefacts etc, then I am afraid I cant do that. You see, I am only a high school graduate, my English is so bad (I even had a tough time trying to understand some of the posts here) etc etc. However, I came from a culture (or rather 2 cultures) that has little written tradition. What I heard in the past and what I am still hearing (I am still learning the traditional way) are materials obtained from oral tradition. That's why when I suggested that keris could also be of Aryan's origin, I was expecting somebody to comment so that I can learn from others' perspective, not only from my gurus. So I hope I will not be asked to provide scientific evidence please :) .

[sepokal]

This thread is getting more interesting, and for the same reasons similar discussions in KampungNet got thrown into the Garbage Bin.

Methinks, rather than the forumers try to prove/disprove sepokal's thesis, the burden of proof should rest on him.

He has made some interesting claims about the Islamic origin of the keris, along with others -- such as the last Majapahit kingdom being based in Kelantan. He now needs to show us evidence to back his claims.

That is after all the foundation of learned discussion.

Dear Mr Rahman,

May I ask, since when was it that historian claim absolutely that the origin of Keris is not of Islamic origin? They merely deduce or rather in Scientific term, infered that Keris originated from Hinduism, through Candi Sukor. Now, all this was based on them studying Javanese Keris. Are we that naive to not know that the Malays too have their own version of Keris during those times? Or is it just because, we want information to be placed on our lap rather than to do research and dig deep?

This forum is not a place for me to unveil all the knowledge that I've gained through my many years of travelling and meeting with many people and reading books. I've given the information. I've got nothing to prove to anyone, at all. There is no profit for me to reveil those information to you. Nevertheless, I did reveil those information to you, long ago, but ironically, you want me to prove it. On a normal circumstance, I would, but now, I think, I won't. Do us a favour Mr Rahman, this information was known to you long ago. Have you made any research on this (plus doa) or do you expect things to just fall onto your lap? The burden to prove about Keris originated from Islam is never a burden to me now Mr Rahman. I'm passed that phase, long ago. I'll leave the burden to you and others, I guess :)...or rather, I would advise, just stick to what you know, Keris and Hinduism... :)

Learned discussion requires you to do research Mr Rahman from what might be, to what actually is.

Oh by the way, do any Javanese keris have Dapor Sepokal like that of Bugis? Look at the shape, does it remind you of any "huruf" from Al Quran? :shrug:

Allah Hafiz and Regards,
sepokal toh putih

p.s
Erm, I don't intend to do any more forum, so thanks. Penangsang...hehehe...stop mentioning my name...Hana...you know where to find me...hehehe ;)

[David]

No one is asking anyone to do any field research. You can state any theory that you wish, but if you want it to be taken seriously i am afraid that you must provide at least some credible sources to support your theory. This is not necessarily "scientific" evidence, it is merely providing viable support for an idea that you expect other interested and often knowledgable students to take seriously. I could just as easily suggest that the origins of the keris lie with visiting space aliens from the Rigel 5 star system (yes, it's the dreaded Space Alien Theory :D ). Without providing any support for this far-fetched theory it is no more or less viable then your own. :)

[David]

Well thank you Sepokal, for you time here. Perhaps you have told Rahman things in the past, but really you have told me and others here absolutely nothing but empty theory. Nor have you answered my repeated request for translation of terms. I like to think that i have an open mind and frankly i don't know enough about keris (or anything for that matter) to be all that certain about origins or anything else. But i certainly am not about to buy into any theory merely on your's or anybody else's say so. Proof will never come, but if you are unable to make your theory seem logical to me why would i choose to accept it. And if you don't care if anyone gives any credence to your theory the why do you bother to state it to begin with?
You say this forum is not the place to unveil your great knowledge. Well then, what are you doing here? Why are you wasting our time then? Thank you for you contribution, however meager it might have been and may you find the right place where you great knowledge will be unquestioned and you can always be supeior and correct. We obviously are not worthy. :rolleyes:

[PenangsangII]

Dear David,

This is yet another classic case of East Vs West. As I had written earlier, in Malay or Javanese culture for that matter, knowledge is to be sought thru certain customary ways - we cannot simply go to a guru and ask a lot of questions. OTOH, in western cultures, you are very encouraged to ask a lot of questions. So, you know how difficult it is to gain knowledge (esp if it involves mysticism, spirits etc) from a traditional Malay / Javanese guru. This is exactly what I am going thru now as I live in the very same culture, hence I am in the forum - to exchange knowledge. There's so much to learn in a very limited life span. Life is just too short.

Mr Sepokal,

Your wish will be my command. I promise not to quote your name again without permission, but I hope you reconsider stopping your inputs here ;) .

Mr Rahman,

I do not want to be drawn to yet another old debate from another forum. If you could check again in the kampungnet thread that you had dumped to the bin, I believe you would understand what Sepokal (sorry for using your name again) had said about the possible Islamic origin of the keris.

Methink, Persians (Aryans) were known to be among the first who used damascene pattern forging of weapons. They also used wavy swords - but to accommodate the local environment, the wavy damascened swords had to go thru evolution, hence the keris we see today. Of course, this theory is not absolute, but logical.

[Alam Shah]

... Methink, Persians (Aryans) were known to be among the first who used damascene pattern forging of weapons. They also used wavy swords - but to accommodate the local environment, the wavy damascened swords had to go thru evolution, hence the keris we see today. Of course, this theory is not absolute, but logical.Actually, we have covered this sometime back... do read this article, written by Mr Alan Maisey... [ link (http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html) ]. I suggest bro Sepokal, you'll do likewise... do give it some thought, afterwhich, we can continue discussion if you like. ;) :)

Bro Sepokal, as for the "Majapahit" / Sajen keris examples... do check it out [ here (http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerissajen.html) ].

[PenangsangII]

Bro AlamShah,

I read Alan's excellent article a few times since at least 2 years ago...and I think it's very intelligent observation, moreover, the writer is himself an empu. I'll go thru it again, and again.....

What I have to offer is the possibility of another origin, or maybe even parallel origin of the keris. Please consider this, people of Nusantara are strong followers of Sunni sect, but what's the deal with cleaning up (merawat) pusakas esp keris during 10 Muharram every year?

[HanaChu69]

Good day everyone,

I apologized if I have created the hassle for referencing but I find them useful. I believe some articles in the internet are not 100% true. As such, this forum may be of some help. Gone were those days where old generation relates tales of their ancestral history to passed down to the future generation? Everyone is so busy nowadays and I’m in that sorry situation right now. How I wish my late father kept a journal for me to get some insight.

Frankly, I like the visual information exchanged in the thread “Majapahit Revisited” between Ganjawulung and Pak Alan. I personally feel that factual evidence shown through books is much appreciated for I may not be able to source them here in Singapore.

Sepokal – After our email info sharing session on Malay Keris philosophy, I thought I could dig some info from you to share in this forum as well. But it is most unlikely possible now due to the above reasons. I hope you will continue your research on Malay Keris and their history. I will be honor to vet through your draft manuscript before publishing them. You will receive my utmost confidentiality upon the frank opinion given. Good luck on your journey in search of wisdom and truth, my friend!


Kind regards,
Hana

P.S - Penangsang, you, high school graduate?? You're jesting lah.. :p

[A. G. Maisey]

Please Penangsang, one correction:- I am not and never have been an empu.

I am a person who has made a number of keris, and I have been taught how to do this by an empu.The fact that this man passed much of his knowledge to me does not make me an empu.

[rahman]

I do not want to be drawn to yet another old debate from another forum. If you could check again in the kampungnet thread that you had dumped to the bin, I believe you would understand what Sepokal (sorry for using your name again) had said about the possible Islamic origin of the keris.

I too do not wish to drag what transpired at KampungNet into this forum. But would I logically dump good evidence into the Garbage Bin?

What we had were similar assertions as found here, but no supporting evidence. I was willing to accept these as folk traditions, but sepokal had not divulged which region/state his informaiton had come from, so I cannot even make any reasonable classification.

Alam Shah, pamor that exist in most Javanese keris are based on made belief too. I guess, it will always be part and parcel of keris lovers to go through this "made belief" stories.

Methinks that's the crux of all that we have -- make believe. If you believe it is so, so will it be.

Let me leave it at that...

I guess we mere mortals are not worthy of the arcane knowledge of the Grand Masters.

David -- I always thought the keris was from Mars, and swords from Venus. We have aliens too here n Singapore -- both legal and illegal. :p

[David]

This is yet another classic case of East Vs West. As I had written earlier, in Malay or Javanese culture for that matter, knowledge is to be sought thru certain customary ways - we cannot simply go to a guru and ask a lot of questions. OTOH, in western cultures, you are very encouraged to ask a lot of questions. So, you know how difficult it is to gain knowledge (esp if it involves mysticism, spirits etc) from a traditional Malay / Javanese guru. This is exactly what I am going thru now as I live in the very same culture, hence I am in the forum - to exchange knowledge. There's so much to learn in a very limited life span. Life is just too short.
To the contrary, i do not believe this is a case of East vs West as all. That's a cop-out. Afterall, you ran into this very same problem with this discussion on a forum which is maintained and supported mostly by Easterners. I do agree that Westerners (especially we Americans :o) live in a "fast food culture" and want everything now (or even yesterday). And we see how this has effected our approach to spirituality especially with the commercialization of Eastern thought through so-called "New Age" spiritual movements. HOWEVER....this debate that is causing trouble here (as it did elsewhere) is not about the attainment of some great spiritual wisdom. I agree that sort of knowledge needs to come slowly, with much hard work by the aspirant on the path to spiritual enlightenment. There are never any easy answers there or easy paths. But what we are debating here is a question of history, plan and simple. A theory of origin has been presented which flows against the general concensus of the history of the keris. This does not make it necessarily wrong, but it does mean that many questions will naturally be asked (by both East and West) seeking supportive evidence for this contrary theory. To act as if one holds such information, yet to refuse to release it is to me nothing but the height of arrogance, unless of course, there really is no support for this theory at all and it is all just empty hot wind. Sorry Sepokal, i do not see the "irony" in asking someone to give some proof for their controversial theory. You say "there is no profit for me" revealling this information says much about you. How about gratitude and respect of the community? Certainly if you can prove your theory it would be a benefit to the entire keris collecting world. Where is the "profit" in not releasing the information you claim to know?


Methink, Persians (Aryans) were known to be among the first who used damascene pattern forging of weapons. They also used wavy swords - but to accommodate the local environment, the wavy damascened swords had to go thru evolution, hence the keris we see today. Of course, this theory is not absolute, but logical.
Not as logical as you might believe. AFAIK all of the earliest keris were straight blades, not wavy and they had no pamor patterns to speak of. If Islamic Aryans brought the keris to Malaysia and Indonesia one might wonder why they didn't make wavy damasced blades from the start.
I may also be wrong about this since it is not my area of study, but isn't Damascene blade work a completely different process from keris making? :shrug:

[HanaChu69]

Greetings keris experts,

I’m looking at what are the after effects of post Tsunami in this thread; challenge one self to prove that given comments are true and relevant. I really see no point continuing with the non-stop harping of that someone. Let’s continue and move on….

Sepokal quoted: “Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan (rituals) that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" (signs) through cracks.”

I’m wondering if this concept applies to some Javanese keris. What does a crack signify? Has it got to do with the spirit of the keris? I have one Javanese patrem that has two separate cracks at the sorsoran area. I’m not sure about the significance of it. I sure hope someone can confer sound knowledge in this matter.

Ganjawulung – I’ve spotted one sentence in your reply on the “Patrem” thread dated 23 May 2007 which I find very interesting: “Spiritual attitude surround kerises. That's the "bobot" or inner quality of the keris world. Something that is neglected by mostly modern people”. Is it possible for you to elaborate?

Thanks & regards,
Hana

P.S – The term “Amalan” can be referred to habitual or religious rituals.

[ganjawulung]

What does a crack signify? Has it got to do with the spirit of the keris? I have one Javanese patrem that has two separate cracks at the sorsoran area. I’m not sure about the significance of it. I sure hope someone can confer sound knowledge in this matter.
In Javanese keris term, people call it as "pamengkang jagat" (the world stretcher). What does it signify? I think Mr Boedhy Aditya knows better than me about this. But, in keris making term, a crack is actually a fail in forging process. (Alan knows much better than us about it). And people take the positive side of the fail, by the positive meaning of it.

Ganjawulung – I’ve spotted one sentence in your reply on the “Patrem” thread dated 23 May 2007 which I find very interesting: “Spiritual attitude surround kerises. That's the "bobot" or inner quality of the keris world. Something that is neglected by mostly modern people”. Is it possible for you to elaborate?

It might be not a correct expression of me, in English. (Sorry for my In-glish, Indonesian English). What I wanted to tell you is, that modern people usually prefer to care the outer appearance of kerises. And not the "inner quality" (spiritual meaning, and so on) of his keris or kerises...

Ganjawulung

[David]

In the supposed words of the great psycho-analyst Sigmund Freud, "...and sometmes a cigar is just a cigar." ;)
Cracks in the blade of a keris are forging flaws, but as Ganja suggest, people like to make the best of any given situation so stories start up to give special providence to error. The bottom line, of course, is what you choose to believe. If you believe a crack in your blade will brimg you good fortune it probably will. :)
Hana, i don't believe there has been a Tsunami here. This thread remained much too civil and cool headed throughout (thank you all) to be granted such a devastating title. No one is dead and the seas are relatively calm. But i agree that we should move on. And thank you BTW, for attempting to explain a few of the terms that others left untranslated. :)

[PenangsangII]

Dear Hana,

From the Buginese & Javanese's perspectives, the cracks are just forging flaws like Pak Ganja & David had said earlier. And as you mentioned, to the Malays, it's different ball game altogether :D .

You know what they (the Malays) say, the cracks are actually the channels that your fragrant oils can seep into the body of the keris, thus feeding the spirit...... ;) .

David, re the cause of the "problem" I faced in another forum, it's nothing like this at all. Contrary to what you believed, it was caused by them insulting my personal belief / ways in treating keris that contained spirits. To them, the traditional ways (including smoking your keris) was blasphemous to Islam. These ppl could have misinformed you via pm etc thus your infering that I was the trouble maker...

[David]

David, re the cause of the "problem" I faced in another forum, it's nothing like this at all. Contrary to what you believed, it was caused by them insulting my personal belief / ways in treating keris that contained spirits. To them, the traditional ways (including smoking your keris) was blasphemous to Islam. These ppl could have misinformed you via pm etc thus your infering that I was the trouble maker...
No worries Penangsang, i have made no assumptions about who was responsible for the problems on the other forum and frankly don't care. My concerns are with what takes place here and so far i have no problems with the way you have carried yourself on this forum. I will also reiterate that i will not tolerate attacks of personal spiritual beliefs so please feel free to discuss them here if it is your will. :)
BTW, just for the record i have received no PMs in regards to that thread bon the other forum and i have not read the thread either so i will pass no judgement on it either way. :)

[ganjawulung]

From the Buginese & Javanese's perspectives, the cracks are just forging flaws like Pak Ganja & David had said earlier. And as you mentioned, to the Malays, it's different ball game altogether :D .

You know what they (the Malays) say, the cracks are actually the channels that your fragrant oils can seep into the body of the keris, thus feeding the spirit...... ;)
Keris with "pamengkang jagat" (a crack in sor-soran or the base of the keris blade -- in vertical position) usually found in kerises with pamor "adeg" (vertical stripes) or in pamor "sada sak ler" (one piece of palm leaf rib). And the crack is usually in the middle of the sor-soran, in vertical position.

This kind of keris with "pamengkang jagat" is much pursued by Javanese. Although this crack is in fact a forging flaw, some people believe that "pamengkang jagat" is good for "pursuing destination" (for instance, love...). And sometimes, this flaw even become the center of attention of a keris blade. Sometimes, quite artistic too... That's my humble opinion. I would like to hear Mr Mans or Mr Boedhy Aditya on this...

Ganjawulung

[HanaChu69]

Greetings keris experts,

Ganjawulung – Thank you for the clarification. I’m glad you touch on "pamengkang jagat" (a crack in sorsoran or the base of the keris blade -- in vertical position). Appreciate the brief description however; I would not want to impose on others to provide the information. I feel it’s their rights and if they are reluctant to impart knowledge for I will respect their decision.

I’m fortunate to gain knowledge through networking with various people (don’t want to mention names) in this forum but often with confidentiality as a basis. Being ethical, I will ask permission to release information for sharing but was often rejected. That’s another reason why I prefer to keep mum and ask for referencing links.

David – Quoted: “Hana, i don't believe there has been a Tsunami here. This thread remained much too civil and cool headed throughout (thank you all) to be granted such a devastating title. No one is dead and the seas are relatively calm”.

Why I use “Tsunami” to contextualize what has happened? It’s not an exaggeration but more precise in my clarification. Here’s my observation; Tsunami attack = Sepokal posting, hitting many countries = nationality of forum members, chaotic people find ways to run for their lives = chaotic various members ready to reply responses, many dead = Thank god only one member stop penning, Tsunami ended and seas resume its calmness = Sepokal stop his replies and the other members started to lax.

BTW, I don’t mind helping with the translation as I’m into languages. I’m not an expert but can understand English, Malay, Bahasa Indonesia, Baweanese, Mandarin, Hokkien and Cantonese dialects. I’m currently still learning Javanese and French.

Penangsang – Please do not be disheartened with some negative responses. Remember my ex-colleague who loves to use this comment: “To assume is the mother of all **** up” (sorry for the foul language used). So the air is now clear and you can start beginning afresh.

Kind regards,
Hana

P.S – I believe in “Behaviour breed Behaviour” so be kind and respectful always…

[Rick]

Hana, I appreciate your flair for the dramatic . :D

However you have been suspended for 30 days for using profanity......

[PenangsangII]

Dear respectable friends,

Since we are still on the subject of keris & spirit, let me tell you a story, that is if you all have the time....... :) .

My former mother in-law (my mother in-law from previous marriage) passed away a few months ago. My 2 daughters used to live with her in a traditional house in a not so modern village. After her passing, my daughters were afraid to stay alone in the house, esp when my ex-wife went to work everyday. So, after school, my daughters would stay out of the house, sometimes with the relatives, sometimes in the library or even in a nearby warong, waiting for my ex-wife to come home before getting into the house, and this had prompted me to take necessary action.

To make the long story short, last month, I brought a pamored Raja Gundala keris to the house, and told my 2 daughters that they should never be afraid of any unseen beings, and to my surprise, they told me that they had seen an old lady dressed in all white robe hanging around the house esp after sunset, and it appeared more often after midnite. Even my ex was also afraid.

I told them to recite certain Quranic verses, and to keep my Raja Gundala keris with them - to signify my presence, and to hold / display the keris when such object/s appeared again. They did as told and the house was not haunted again.

I was told by a wiseman that keris with that kind pamor was very powerful to keep bad spirit at bay, as well as strong anti black magic implement. Or maybe, it's all in the mind - when you are not afraid & confident, such bad spirit/s will be afraid and stay away from you?

I hope any of the forumites will be able to tell me whether Raja Gundala is really that powerful.

Regards,

Penangsang

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Keris with "pamengkang jagat" (a crack in sor-soran or the base of the keris blade -- in vertical position) usually found in kerises with pamor "adeg" (vertical stripes) or in pamor "sada sak ler" (one piece of palm leaf rib). And the crack is usually in the middle of the sor-soran, in vertical position.

This kind of keris with "pamengkang jagat" is much pursued by Javanese. Although this crack is in fact a forging flaw, some people believe that "pamengkang jagat" is good for "pursuing destination" (for instance, love...). And sometimes, this flaw even become the center of attention of a keris blade. Sometimes, quite artistic too... That's my humble opinion. I would like to hear Mr Mans or Mr Boedhy Aditya on this...

Ganjawulung

Gonjo and kerislovers,

I have a keris with "pamengkang jagad = the world stretcher [?]". Or if it is not a keris with the world stretcher, it is a keris with "rondo beser". David and Gonjo, please translate to foruminities a word "rondo beser". Personally, I prefer a word "rondo beser" because its dapur/shape is sombro (Sombro is a name of female empu/kerissmith).

Here is the story of my Sombro with "rondo beser". Twice, I brought that keris to a monthly forum which attended by kerislovers in my hometown Djokja. What did some of them give comment on that keris? side effect of a flaw forging as Gonjo said in this forum.

On the other ocassion, I showed it to kerislovers who did not now about forging technique. In their opinion, this sombro was a very good keris because of extraordinary unseen power. One of them offered me unbelievable dowry (price) for that keris. In short, the keris is still mine now.

Seemingly, there is two different point of view on either "pamengkang jagad" or "rondo beser". One view tends to focus on forging technique whilst the other one tends to focus on the spiritual aspect. In my own opinion, these two different views can not compared each other because the difference comes since the beginning.

I just remember a fiction film "lord of the ring". I don't remember in detail about the broken sword which finally reforging successfully by so and so.

Does anyone of you have a keris with "pamengkang jagad" or "rondo beser"? Please share the pictures to our beloved kerislovers for enriching knowledge of keris by watching images. I am eager to share with you the pictures of my sombro with "the world stretcher or rondo beser=...." soon after I can afford a new digicam. Sigh... I lost my digicam last month.

warm regards,
Usmen

[VANDOO]

THE OLD TRADITIONS,KNOWLEGE ,BELIEFS AND MAGIC OF MY ANCESTORS IS NO LONGER PART OF OUR CULTURE AND HAS NOT BEEN FOR MANY GENERATIONS. THERE ARE STILL SOME THINGS THAT MOSTLY COME AS DREAMS, PREMONITIANS AND FEELINGS OF FEAR, WARMTH,POWER, ECT. BUT THEY ARE JUST SHADES, WHICH ARE OFTEN DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND.

I CAN READ BOOKS ON ANOTHER CULTURE AND GET A GLIMPSE OF THE CULTURE AND PERHAPS A BIT OF KNOWLEGE BUT WITHOUT BEING RAISED IN OR AT LEAST LIVING IN THE CULTURE FOR MANY YEARS I CAN NEVER ACHIVE THE SAME BELIEF OR UNDERSTANDING AS THEY CAN. SO IT SHOULD COME AS NO SURPRIZE THAT MY INTREPRETATION OF THE SOCIETY AND ITS CEREMONYS AND BELIEFS WOULD BE DIFFERENT FROM THEIRS. THIS IS NOT NECESSARLY A BAD THING IF I AM WILLING TO BE CORRECTED AND THEY ARE WILLING TO PERHAPS SEE WHY I THINK AS I DO AND NOT BE OFFENDED BY IT AND SHUT ME OUT.
ALL MODERN CULTURES HAVE LOST A LOT OF THESE OLD BELIEFS, CEREMONYS AND THE ABILITYS TO ACCESS THE POWERS AND KNOWLEGE OF ANCIENT TIMES SO IT BECOMES CONFUSING AND OFTEN THEORYS AND BELIEFS ARE BASED ON ONLY PART OF THE OLD KNOWLEGE SO IT IS NOT RIGHT OR COMPLETE. A LOT OF BELIEFS HAVE COME UP DUE TO OLD WRITEINGS OR STORIES WHICH WERE FICTION MADE UP TRYING TO PAINT A POSITIVE AND PRETTY PICTURE OF OUR OLD ANCESTORS AND THEIR WAYS WITH NO REAL KNOWLEGE AND SOMETIMES IGNORING THE FACTS.
IN PRIMATIVE TIMES THE PRODUCTION OF WEAPONS INVOLVED A LOT OF MAGICAL CEREMONY AND TECKNIQUE AND RITCUALS WERE SECRET AND ONLY SHARED WITH THE PRIVILEGED FEW. THIS SECRECY ALSO GAVE THE (IRON WORKERS FOR INSTANCE) POWER AND PRESTIGE THEY WERE THOUGHT TO HAVE SPECIAL POWERS AND KNOWLEGE AND WERE BOTH SOUGHT AFTER AND FEARED. STORIES OF THESE SUPERNATURAL POWERS ABOUND PEOPLE WHO CAN FORM METAL WITH THEIR BARE HANDS EITHER COLD OR MOLTEN AND HAD THE POWER TO PUT SPIRITS AND STRANGE POWERS INTO THE MYSTICAL ,ELEMENTAL METAL. THE IDEA THAT SOMETHING FROM THE SUN OR NOT OF THIS EARTH OR EVEN LIGHTNING HAS ALWAYS BEEN SEEN TO ADD SOME SPECIAL POWERS TO AN OBJECT. IT GOES BACK TO OUR EARLY DAYS WHEN MAN DID NOT KNOW MUCH OF HIS WORLD AND HOW IT WORKED SO EVERYTHING WAS MYSTERIOUS AND MAGICAL.

I PERSONALLY BELIEVE EVERYTHING WAS CREATED BY ONE POWERFUL CREATOR AND WE WILL FIND OUT MORE WHEN WE PASS FROM THIS LIFE.
SCIENCE IS NOTHING EXALTED IT IS JUST MANS METHOD OF TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW THE CREATOR MADE THINGS AND HOW THEY WORK. I HAVE TO LAUGH AT A SCIENTIST WHO FIGURES OUT ONE SMALL THING AND THEN SAYS HE HAS PROVED THERE IS NO CREATOR. IT IS LIKE A YOUNG CHILD FINDING OUT HOW TO OPEN A DOOR AND THEN THINKING HE IS THE RULER OF THE WORLD. :D

WE HAVE ACESS TO ONLY OUR 5 SENSES WHICH I THINK DENIES US OUR FULL ABILITYS AND LIMITS WHAT WE CAN SEE OR LEARN. PERHAPS THIS IS FOR OUR OWN GOOD BUT AT TIMES I CAN SENSE THERE IS MORE HERE IN OUR WORLD THAN WE KNOW. THE SHAMEN OR MEDICINE MEN MAY HAVE HAD SOME WAYS TO EXPAND THEIR 5 SENSES OR TO PARTIALY USE SOME OTHERS WE DON'T KNOW OF TO HELP THEIR TRIBES.

THE KERIS IS A BEAUTIFUL OBJECT FULL OF MYSTERY AS WELL AS A WEAPON. I LIKE TO MEDITATE AND EMPTY MY MIND AND FOLLOW THE PARMOR PATTERNS IN A BLADE. OFTEN I SEE THINGS I HAD NOT NOTICED AND A COUPLE OF TIMES I SAW THINGS THAT WHEN I LOOKED FOR AGAIN I COULD NEVER FIND. I FIND IT IS RELAXING AND IS A GREAT WAY TO GET TO KNOW A KERIS AND TO ENJOY IT MORE.
I DO ATTEMPT TO FIND THAT "RIGHT MENTAL ATTITUDE" AT TIMES. I FIND A NICE QUIET PLACE ,THE BEST IS OUTSIDE. THEN I SIT AND TRY TO RELAX AND EMPTY MY MIND AND STRIP AWAY ALL THE MENTAL ARMOR AND TRIALS AND WORRIES OF LIFE AND TO GET TO THE STATE OF INNOCENCE IN WHICH WE WERE BORN. I HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO ACHIVE IT YET BUT PERHAPS I WILL GET THERE SOMEDAY WITH DICIPLINE AND AGE. :shrug:

[David]

I was told by a wiseman that keris with that kind pamor was very powerful to keep bad spirit at bay, as well as strong anti black magic implement. Or maybe, it's all in the mind - when you are not afraid & confident, such bad spirit/s will be afraid and stay away from you?

We often come to this point in the conversation whenever such matters are discussed. Is it "real" or only in ones mind. And so i ask, what does it matter as long as the desired effect takes place. ALL magick takes place first in the mind. ;) :)

[Raden Usman Djogja]

David & Penangsang

a word related to your discussion about "not afraid and confident" is pusaka/keris/spear/heirloom as "sipat piandel". Sorry David for not translating "sipat piandel" in English. I do hope any forumity could translate it.

some devoted religious people use their holly book as "sipat piandel". some other devoted men think that holly book per se is nothing. It only contains written verses. however, to the others, holly book is needed to materialize what they believe and then the effect is to boost their confident. if gaining full confident, no one will be afraid to anything. Something exists because someone believes.

some people rely on their degree or curicullum vitae or colleagues or position or wealth as "sipat piandel". certain people rely on their KERIS (one of them with pamor ROJO GUNDOLO [=KING of SPIRIT?])

imho, actually, all those "sipat piandel" metioned above are the manifestation of THE SINGULARITY as Alan said. Normatively, every one must rely on the SINGULARITY directly as "sipat piandel" without any medium ("lantaran") such as holly book, KERIS, position, wealth, connection et cetera et cetera. IT IS VERY CLEAR. but, why dont people go directly?

imho, simply that THE PRESENT OF THE SINGULARITY IS TOO ABSTRACT.

meanwhile, all of us are growing up in the materialism age.

warm salam,
Usmen

[ganjawulung]

I have a keris with "pamengkang jagad = the world stretcher [?]". Or if it is not a keris with the world stretcher, it is a keris with "rondo beser". David and Gonjo, please translate to foruminities a word "rondo beser". Personally, I prefer a word "rondo beser" because its dapur/shape is sombro (Sombro is a name of female empu/kerissmith).

Dear Raden Usman,
I will try to find the exact meaning of "rondo beser". (For this time being, I'm still travelling between Yogya-Solo-Yogya to and fro. And I've met Marco -- our keris Italian friend -- in Yogyakarta. We stay in the same hotel in Tirtodipuran Yogyakarta but of course not the same room.)

If I'm not mistaken, "rondo beser" is a bigger crack than "pamengkang jagat". And the literaly meaning of "rondo beser" is, "rondo" means "widow" and "beser" means "so often go to toilet". So, what is in a name? You may feel it.

In my opinion, "rondo beser" has a little bit negative conotation. But "pamengkang jagat" has more positive meaning. So it depends on the person, from what side or perspective he see the phenomenon (the crack in the blade).

This for the time being, my answer to you, Raden. After I come to Jakarta, I will search the more exact meaning of it. Anyway, I met your old friends in Yogyakarta, Raden. Your friend from Pametri Wiji Yogyakarta (the Yogyakarta Keris Association), are mentioning your name.

Ganjawulung

[David]

Thank you Usmen. I think i am able to grasp the meaning of "sipat piandel" through your usage of the term. You pose a very interesting question, i believe, and my answer to it is that very simply we don't need any particular medium, be it keris, holy books or whatever, to connect ourselves to the "Singularity".
The direct line is always there and can always be accessed. But personally i sometimes like to travel along a more winding path to see what the "Singularity" may have manisfest there. There may also be other lessons to be learned on that less direct path and one can find a different beauty manifested there (such as in the form of the keris) that one would miss otherwise. I believe the key here is not to fall prey to the idea that one cannot do without the trappings of one's Art in order to accomplish the "Great Work" that lies before us. When we do such things become merely a crutch that in the end has an opposite effect of weighing us down in our materialism when we really want to "fly". But if we understand the true nature of our tools and always keep in mind that ultimately they are unnecessary they can infact make the journey more "colorful". ;) :)

[Mans]

Dear all,
Especially to Moderator.

Peace...
I don't know, do I will breaking the rule if I post the comment from friend who got trouble with her account at this forum. But he asked me to post her comment in here.

Here her comment :


Dear all,

I didn’t expect my comment will be the cause for me being suspended as this is an adult forum. So do expect the unexpected. I heard this comment made in 1994 and now the impact still register in my mind. Anyway, I hope it will create a powerful impact on us of the danger in assuming things.

I will cease penning my writes from now on to bow low and step back. My being suspended is a sign from Almighty Allah to stop sharing my thoughts and findings. I will share an email (Keris & Spirits) quoted from someone whom I hold very high respect and look upon for his many years of wisdom.

He quoted: “Many people claim to be "experts", or get promoted as "experts" by their own little group. Very, very few people are truly expert in the area we are discussing, and those who truly are, are not easy to find.”

One last request from me to keris experts: to provide correct info and not mislead others. If you’re reluctant then just “shut your mouth” and keep mum. As for the others be initiative; do research and compare findings. Apologized if I happen to step on anybody’s toes for I’m a very forthright person with no hidden façade or agenda.

Sincerely,

Hana
P.S – Nice knowing you guys at Warung Kopi. Do take care!!

[Rick]

This forum is a part of the Vikingsword site; that means the guidelines and rules listed in the Main forum must also be followed .
I did not enjoy doing what I did but for consistency's sake I was compelled to .
Hana is welcome back after her suspension ends .

From the overall rules of behavior for *all* fora here:

" You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy."

Let's move on ...

Rick

[David]

He quoted: “Many people claim to be "experts", or get promoted as "experts" by their own little group. Very, very few people are truly expert in the area we are discussing, and those who truly are, are not easy to find.”
I agree with Rick that we should move on. If any member feels the need to continue this conversation i would be more than happy to discuss the matter further with them in PM. Hana's inquisitiveness and kindness will be missed, but in should be made clear that she is certainly welcome back after her suspension has past. :)
I would like to comment on the above passage from Hana's letter though. Truer words have rarely been stated in regards to the keris world. The arena is rife with pretenders. I will say, however, that i can think of no one here who has promoted themselves as an "expert" in this field and always feel a bit uncomfortable when someone addresses an inquirery "dear keris experts". The only person on this forum who i believe even remotely meets the profile of a "keris expert" would certainly never call himself one and is well aware of the limitations of his expertise to very specific areas of keris study. So i do ask you all that we procede with this attitude in mind; that we are all merely students of the keris, that there is so much more for any of us to know, that we will probably spend the rest of our lives in the persuit of this elusive knowledge, and that previously unknown answers can sometimes be provided by even the most neophyte amongst us, as inspiration is a gift from the creatrix that often lands in the laps of the most inexperienced of pupils. ;) :)

[Alam Shah]

Dear Hana,

He quoted: “Many people claim to be "experts", or get promoted as "experts" by their own little group. Very, very few people are truly expert in the area we are discussing, and those who truly are, are not easy to find.”
What you said is true, but bear in mind... most of us here are not experts, nor claim to be one (me included). This is a place to share... when we have an opinion, we state it such. If we have our opinion... presented as facts, then others will want that fact to be supported or where the info originated. This would help us explore further... etc.

To err is human, we do make mistakes and at times, got corrected. We learn from our mistake and the mistakes of others, then we move on... :)

One last request from me to keris experts: to provide correct info and not mislead others. If you’re reluctant then just “shut your mouth” and keep mum. As for the others be initiative; do research and compare findings. Apologized if I happen to step on anybody’s toes for I’m a very forthright person with no hidden façade or agenda.

Hana, you mentioned that you are forthright, but up to now, I still could not figure out whom you are refering to as the keris experts, :confused: (you can email me).

I believe the others can stand their own ground... for years they've done so. I wish you the very best of luck in your quest for... hmmm... whatever that you're looking for. Cheers. ;)

[ganjawulung]

I have a keris with "pamengkang jagad = the world stretcher [?]". Or if it is not a keris with the world stretcher, it is a keris with "rondo beser". David and Gonjo, please translate to foruminities a word "rondo beser". Personally, I prefer a word "rondo beser" because its dapur/shape is sombro (Sombro is a name of female empu/kerissmith).

Here is the story of my Sombro with "rondo beser"...
Dear Raden Usman,
This is just small additional notes on the specific term of "rondo beser" (widow that too often goes to toilet) you mentioned in your post. The term "rondo beser", is only used in a keris or kerises which have "sogokan" (one of two vertical niches in the sor-soran or the base of a keris). It is called "rondo beser" if the "sogokan" has perforated (not crack, but kind of hole in the sogokan).

If you mentioned "dhapur sombro", it must be a keris which has no sogokan. Thus, the right term is not "rondo beser", but "pamengkang jagat" (crack in the middle of the base of keris, in vertical position...)

Sombro, actually is the name of a female empu of Pajajaran, around 10th century. And not the name of dhapur. The forms of kerises made by "Ni mBok Sombro" (designation of this female empu), usually was very simple. (See Ensiklopedi Keris, Bambang Harsrinuksmo page 439) Keris without sogokan, but some of them (believed) usually has kind of "traces of finger press" along the blade...

Some Javanese people -- according to Bambang Harsrinuksmo -- believed that kerises (many of them with the very simple in form and also in metal material) made by sombro have "invisible power"...

Ganjawulung

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Dear Kerislovers,

Finally, as I promised you, I upload keris, shape: sombro with Pamengkan Jagad or Rondho Beser.

Hope you will enjoy and continue the discussion of spirit and (inside) keris.

warm regards,
Usman

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Dear Kerislovers,

Now, we have well-information about "Pamengkang Jagad" and "Rondho Beser". One still neglected is "Combong". Three of them have a similiar characteristic which having hole in their blade, dont they? I havent ever seen "Combong". I just hear about it. Does anyone have an information about Keris "Combong"?

Instead of lack of forging, a lot of people believe Keris Combong has great spiritual power especially to lure. If I am not mistaken.

Perhaps, as I started, we can share images of Pamengkan Jagad, Rondho Beser dan Combong for enriching ours.

Warm regards,

Usman

[ganjawulung]

Dear Kerislovers,

Now, we have well-information about "Pamengkang Jagad" and "Rondho Beser". One still neglected is "Combong". Three of them have a similiar characteristic which having hole in their blade, dont they? I havent ever seen "Combong". I just hear about it. Does anyone have an information about Keris "Combong"?

Instead of lack of forging, a lot of people believe Keris Combong has great spiritual power especially to lure. If I am not mistaken.

Dear Raden,
As far as I know, the crack in your betok is not "pamengkang jagat", but "combong". Pamengkang jagat is not as big crack as combong. Often, the pamengkang jagat's crack only one piece of hair size. Some stones (agates) can have "combong" crack too, and some people believed such stones have certain "power". I don't know the exact English word for "combong". May be big crack in a hard material, something like that...

Ganjawulung

[pakana]

Hello to all,

What about keris picit or putut kembar? Do you think that these kerises possesss special "power"? Some say that if a keris is "built" by the fingers, then is much more powerful than an ordinary one..Also the "praying priests" indicate something about the keris? Something spiritual maybe? Ganjagulung can you enlight us?

george

[ganjawulung]

What about keris picit or putut kembar? Do you think that these kerises possesss special "power"? Some say that if a keris is "built" by the fingers, then is much more powerful than an ordinary one..Also the "praying priests" indicate something about the keris? Something spiritual maybe? Ganjagulung can you enlight us?

george

Hi George,
i am not mastering in 'spiritual power' in kerises. Though, I will help you to get a bit of information on that. Keris pichit, in Javanese term known as "keris pejetan". Simple model of kerises, which have kind of "traces" as if of "finger pressing" at the blade. Some "puthut kembar" (twin priests) have kind of "finger pressing" like this, but not always. Keris pejetan, usually iras or without ganja (one piece blade).

Many myths surrounds this type of simple blade. But many stories, connected these simple made kerises to a woman name of Empu Ni Mbok Sombro -- some believed she was a woman empu from the Pajajaran era (before Majapahit era, about 10th century). Yes, some people believed that such kerises have kind of "power".

Keris pejetan, known also as keris with "luk samun" (hidden luks). Some people, even counts the numbers of pejetan in the blade. Some have 11, or 13 pejetans, as if they are luks in kerises -- though the blades are actually straight kerises. So, keris pejetan is a "straight keris but with luks"...

The simple appearance, believed to show the intention of the maker or makers that such kerises were not for "weapon", but for special meaning. May be amulet, talisman, or kind of that. The iron of the blade, usually is good kind of old iron. Usually, the dhapur is "brojol", the most simple model of straight keris..

Puthut kembar, is often "mistakenly" mentioned as "keris umyang". Umyang actually was not a dhapur name, but a name of a famous long living empu believed to live in the very end of Majapahit era, and into Demak, Pajang and the beginning of Islamic Mataram era. The appearance of this kind of keris, is quite simple, though "attractive" because of the odd reliefs of puthut in the "gandhik" (front base of keris) and "wadidang" (rear base of keris). Umyang, known as an eccentric empu, so the keris which was widely named as "keris umyang" believed to have certain magical power. It is just my humble information...

Ganjawulung

[pakana]

Thanks Ganjawulung for the info,

Are there any info for the keris with pamor Tiban? As I know, this kind of pamor is unplanned by the empu, and it had something to do with the will of Heaven for this keris..That gives a special "spiritual" meaning to the keris or no?

george

[PenangsangII]

Dear George,

Tiban literally means fall, so pamor tiban means pamor that falls from the heaven (I quote you) on a keris. Of course pamor tiban has some mystical references to it, depending on what type of pattern. Ensikloplidi Keris would be able to tell you more of the mystical properties of certain pamor pattern ;) .

Penangsang

[ganjawulung]

Are there any info for the keris with pamor Tiban? As I know, this kind of pamor is unplanned by the empu, and it had something to do with the will of Heaven for this keris..That gives a special "spiritual" meaning to the keris or no?

george
There are two types of pamor, based on the making of it. The first is -- as you said -- unplanned pamor by the empu. Yes, you may call it as "God-given pamor". (The type of pamor that Mr Haryono Haryoguritno called it as "pamor jwalana" in his book, "Keris Jawa, Between Myth and Logical Reasoning).

On the contrary, is "pamor rekan" or "engineered pamor" -- for instance: pamor ron kendhuru, lar gangsir, walang sinundukan etc. The empu was engineering so carefully the material of pamor, that the result could manifest the planned pamor. (Mr Haryono Guritno called it as "pamor anukarta")

Some unsuspected pamor, such as "raja gundhala" believed by them who believed it -- could gave certain power or good effect to the owner of the keris. Or pamor "sumber mas" (fountain of gold) -- usually the form is like a couple of layered circles in the ganja or the separated base of the keris.

That is just a tiny info on "pamor tiban"...

Ganjawulung

[pakana]

Thank you so much for the reply Penangsang and Ganjawulung.

Unfortunately Javanese is not my native language, so I don't have access to items such as Ensiclopedi Keris :(

george

[pakana]

Greetings keris spiritualists :)

I would like to share a strange incident with you, and I would like to hear your opinions/thoughts. It happend several years ago, on my first trip to Java.

During that trip I had my first keris. I bought it from a market place. I was very happy for my purchase, because I was trying to get one for sometime.

When I got back to my hotel, I put the keris on the desk of the room and went to sleep. It was a very strange night, because all night long I woke up several times with the feeling that I was shaking from inside, like I was possesed by something. That was the first, and the last time I had that kind of "visit".

Next day I had a talk with some friends that live in Indonesia, and they said that maybe it was the spirit of the empu, checking the new owner.

Any thoughts/similar incidents?

george

[pakana]

One more thing.

On my next trip,I've learned that a week after the seller sold the keris, his wife accidentally died..spooky :eek:

george

[A. G. Maisey]

Doxycycline works wonders for those shakes inside.

One 50mg tablet daily as prophylaxis.

Three 50mg tablets three times daily when the curse really starts to bite, backed up with imodium.

Good idea to stay away from sate ayam too.

[pakana]

Hello mr. Maisey,

I can understand that you are a bit of sceptic for incidents like that. I had my share in food poisoning a week later that event. So you completely deny the chance of maybe something "strange" happened? I'm sure that with your experience in keris field, you will surely witnessed strange things..

george

[A. G. Maisey]

G'day George,

Yeah, I'm a bit sceptical. Normally I would have shut up and said nothing, but I just felt like being a bit facetious.To good an opportunity to miss.Sorry.

I have witnessed one strange thing associated with keris, but it could perhaps have been rationally explained. Only that one possibly strange thing.

I have heard many,many stories of strange things associated with keris.

I have had first hand experience of repeated inexplicable occurrences that have nothing at all to do with keris.

Strange, inexplicable things can occur.

But in my experience, these strange, inexplicable things are invariably associated with a particular type of person.

I am not that type of person, and the strange , inexplicable things keep their distance.

[David]

One more thing.

On my next trip,I've learned that a week after the seller sold the keris, his wife accidentally died..spooky :eek:

george

I am not sure why you would believe that this tragic event would have anything to do with your keris. Accidents happen and people die all the time. Why do you see a connection here? :shrug:
If i really thought that someone died because i bought their husband's keris i would immediately return it to him.
I certainly would not completely rule out your hotel "visitation" as a paranormal event, but frankly it could have been so many other things that caused your sleepless night, especially since you admit that this is the only time this occurred in the presence of this keris. Sleepless nights, especially in strange hotel rooms far away from home are really pretty common.
It is very easy to construct any kind of paranormal thinking you like around any event. Could a long died empu be checking up on the new owner of one of the many keris he made in his lifetime. Sure, why not. But i would think that he probably has better things to do in the afterlife than that. ;) :)

[pakana]

All opinions are welcome, thank you :)

george