keris blade for comment.

[capt.smash]

Hi guys i just got this nice Bali blade .Its another nice blade fallen on hard times :( placed in poor dress and sold cheep[i cant resist a nice blade ] :) .Im asumeing its a bali blade cause its in bali dress and because of its size[40cm from tip to ganja]and high polish and also there is a one eyed demon/deity? engraved at the bottom.There is alot of engraveing around the bottom of the blade,although unfortunately some has worn away[i get the impression that it was once heavily corroded and then re-polished].Of interest to me is the ganja witch has the strange protrusions and after some scrubbing away the dirt and rust with a toothbrush in water i was delighted to find that the two either side of the peksi are infact very intricately chizeled animals[i cant capture them very well in picture but the detail is almost microscopic with individual hairs engraved to make the fur coat]the animal nearest the pecetan im quite sure is a cow and i cant quite make the other one out yet[it is alot more corroded] but im leaning towards a cat/tiger or monkey :rolleyes: [more cleaning should hopefuly make it clearer].Can anyone tell me the significance of these animals?there seems to be a ceremonial feel to it.Any comments and corrections welcome. :)
Sorry about pic quality my camera is rubbish :o

[capt.smash]

closer inspection reveals that the second animal is almost certainly a tiger and they both apear to be partly submerged in flowing water/river..the nodules near the aring seem to be rocks with water flowing around them.

[Henk]

What a shame that this blade is mounted in such a cheap tourist dress.

It is balinese and once it certainly was dressed in a smashing scabbard with a fine ukiran. Unfortunately the mendak is also missing.

In my opinion this is a very good blade. It should be cleaned properly with lime juice and re-etched with arsenic. The figures on the gandja were certainly gilded and the engravings once were gilded too.

Maybe you should spend some money on this fellow to bring it back in the way it once appeared. Maybe Adni of the Malay Art Gallery can give you some advise. If you have the opportunity to restore it you will have a very fine balinese or lombok keris. I think this one is the effort worth.

[capt.smash]

Thanks Henk thanks for the reply :) yeah its a great shame about the dress but for me the blade is the most important part...this is the second good quality bali blade that i have got in almost identical dress and like the last this is one for keeps and restoration. :D Do you have any ideahs on the significance of the animals ?mabe a makers marks or perhaps something to do with a hindu fable or something they are a lovely detail :)

[Rick]

Nah ,
Made in Milwaukee . :D :D

Seriously though capt. , thanks for showing me something I have never before seen in a Bali blade .
The Tiger and the Bull are symbols of bravery , no ?

Very interesting features .

[Henk]

To be honest I really don't know what the meaning is of those symbols on the keris. Ricks remark is a posibility. I've seen such a keris in good condition in a very serious collection. I was even allowed to keep it in my hands. The only thing I could do at that moment was to put up a face like this, :eek: and enjoying a marvelous keris.

I always thought that such a keris was made for a wealthy person who could afford a keris with gold ornaments. The keris I mentioned had a dress of gold and ivory, that is pointing in such a direction. Symbols of power and strength, reflecting the position of the owner.

[capt.smash]

"made in Milwaukee" LOL :D

[Rick]

This is probably the antithesis of critical thinking but ,

While I agree that this blade most likely belonged to a higher status person I also have read , on this forum IIRC (take it for what you will) , that such adornments were often awarded by the sultan for an outstanding act of bravery on the part of one of his minions .

Silly romantic stuff probably but it would seem a particularly appropriate reward and possibly even fits Ruel's fashion criteria .

Always remember , you read it on the internet . :D

[Henk]

In the book by Tammens I found something about this.

Applying gold on keris blades started in the 17th century. On the ganja of many kerisses gold figures have been applied. Mostly two animals, the macan (tiger) and the gajah (elephant) symbols for the two empires Mataram and Modjopahit and sometimes the banteng (wild cow) as a symbol of strength.
It is said that the well known Sultan Agung took the initiative in applying these golden ornaments, to honour those kerisses, that played a part in the change from Modjopahit to the empire of Mataram.
The engraving of flowers and claspers on the wilah is decoration done in a positive relief. Applying with gold rises the decoration from the surface.

[empu kumis]

Hello Kerislovers,

the animals on top of the ganja are not original but made recently. The blade itself is not a good one because of the low condition. Remember Balinese Blades are polished not etched like the Javanese. Etching of Balinese blades came up maybe in the 70ties because of the lack of caretaking. To get a Balinese keris in good first class condition is almost impossibleSee: Hamzuri 1982-83 Petunjuk Singkat Tentang Keris p. 8.

Animals on Balinese blades (ganja) are sometimes present even of gold and sometimes like the Javanese Singa Barong (not a tiger), Gajah, winged horse and so on. impossible.
See: Hamzuri 1982-83 Petunjuk Singkat Tentang Keris p. 8.

Its said the meaning of this animals is a date and also like a medal of honour for bravery especially under Sultan Agung.

empu kumis

[capt.smash]

Thanks Henk for looking that up thats a great help and interesting :)

Hi Empu Kumis :) thanks for your comments this blade is highly polished and you cant feel the pamor if you run your finger over it but does have random pitting and wear from past corrosion im very sure its older than the 1970,s .

Also after more cleaning i have discovred that there is a wafer thin gold shim between the blade and the ganja its only visable in a couple of places and is incredibly thin my camera wont zoom in close enough to catch it properly... strange but interesting :)

[empu kumis]

Hello Capt. Smash,

its not only the corrosion but also the incomplete greneng and the blade is to narrow. It could be reshaped. This has been done many times to rise the prices in Bali and even more in Jawa.

The blade itself is older but reshaped. Up to now there has been almost no research about the age of Balinese kerisses. If somebody telling you the age of a Balinese keris its always pure speculation. Even to tell about where it comes from (Southbali or Northbali) is difficult and in Bali almost everythings is forgotten.

[capt.smash]

After some TLC and a visit to doctor arsenic....nice pamor in my opinion :)

[Henk]

Did you that by yourself??? The result is great !!! Next step is restoring the gold part and if possible a good dress for this fellow.

[Bill]

Looks very good Captain, as some of your past posts show questions about etching, tell us about your experiances to date.

[capt.smash]

HI guys, Henk yes i did it myself :) i am currently looking at gold leaf/gilding and have found that gold leaf is quite cheep so i will be doing this very soon :D .Im also looking into re-doing the fadeing an in some places worn away engraveing on the blade but this is a long term project[i already have the engraveing tools but it will require some further experimentation before hand].


Hi Bill i have been building up to this kind of project for some time and just as i was ready this blade fell into my lap as if it was meant to be ;) .My first task was the staining solution witch as i described in my thread on "warangan".Firstly i had to find a source of Arsenic witch as you know is a banned substance in most countries and after some searching and help from other members i found that warangan[the traditional mineral for staining keris] was probably the ore Realgar[Arsenic sulfide]easily sourced on ebay ;)then powdering it[ a lump of ore about an inch square part crystal part rock]and adding it to about 1 and a half liters of grapefruit juice.I tested this on an inferior trade blade that i got for this task and it worked well although i have found the grapefruit juice is only mildly acidic and only removes dirt and dosent etch the blade [ideal for a bali blade that has a polished surface] so for a more acidic solution i will use limes.I soaked the blade for 1 and a half days in my bathroom with ambient temprature of about 20deg C [slow but easily controllable].

The hardest part was prapareing/restoreing the blade.As you can see from the pics it was in bad shape with lots of corosion, rust ,scratches and pitting along the blade[the pamor not visable in a few plces], fortunately most of the pitting was only very shallow and i spent a day and a half of intermitant sanding with 6 grades of sandpaper [the type used in praparing car bodywork] starting with p100 to remove the surface material on both sides to a point where the pittingwas minimal and i could put a polish on the blade[aproximately quarter of a milimeter off both sides but im guessing there]this was the hardest part becuase i had to draw a line between a good surface and changeing the shape /lines of the blade witch i didnt want to do.After this i then gradualy went down in courseness of sandpaper p180,p320,p400,p800,p1500 till it was in a position to be easily polished.
Some of our more traditional keris lovers may want to look away now :p I then did a quick pass on a rotary buffing wheel to polish the blade to a nice shine.And finaly gave the blade a few whipes with a rag soaked in sulfuric acid[car battery acid] to re-open the grain of the blade so the pamor could be set free.
In all i probaly removed about 3 quarters of a mill,s worth of material from the blade ,amazeing the difrence it has made and with no detremental afects on the strength of the blade. :D

Make what you will of it,any coments welcome :p

sorry about the grammar :)

[rasdan]

You're the man Capt., believe me you're the man. To me, that metal that makes your keris and the type of pamor is almost impossible to etch; except for the Javaneese specialist. For amature collector to etch a keris like that is SUPERB!! I've used natural realgar, and the result is ok on several kerisses only, that is keris with a kinda porous metal. With kerisses like yours, its almost impossible for me to etch. And yet, you've done it. Perhaps i should use purer realgar. :) However, i believe most collector in SE Asia would not approve the sandpaper method. As for me, if it works...what the heck... :)

Can u please explain regarding opening the steel grain using sulphuric acid? What does it do to the grain structure?

[capt.smash]

Hi Rasdan thanks for your kind words :)As for" opening the grain"[i must mention that all the sanding was done with strokes running parrallel to the length of the blade only]now after the whole sanding and polishing process if i looked down the blade i could not see the pamor ,the sanding causes the visable surface to blend /smear together so the pamor is barely visible[best way i can think of explaing it] so a quick whipe with battery acid gives it a slight etch just enough to make the pattern visible again.Do you know what i mean by sealed grain?
Also i forgot to mention that i only sanded the blade up to about 3 inches before the ganja[just before it starts to taper outwards] this was so i didnt remove any of the original engraveing.

Any information on technique the profesional restorer would have done on any of these stages would be most welcome :)

[rasdan]

Thanks for the info Capt. I try the method in my next session of staining. :)

[BSMStar]

Hi Captain,

Nitric acid (HNO3) is commonly used to etch meteorites (it removes iron faster than nickel)... it may work better for you to "open" or "lift" the grain of the pamor. But of course, if it is not available then sulfuric will work a little more slowly. Be careful of the concentration you use (5% nitric in 95% isopropyl alcohol works, slowly add acids to other diluents and not the other way around - it can be a violent reaction) and the exposures time that you allow to the acid, you do not want to be too aggressive. It sounds like you are off to a great start! :D

Phosphoric acid makes a great rust remover in extreme cases. :)

[tom hyle]

This to me is the ultimate journey in collecting; when you get into the actual processes of the original culture, and can give the piece even more respect than to preserve it; to improve it; all congratulations to you, and thanks for sharing.

[nechesh]

Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials.

[capt.smash]

Hi guys. Tom thanks for your kind words :) i realy enjoyed doing this ...ill post more pics when i get the gold back on it.

BSMStar thanks for the cool info very helpful ...now ill have to buy another old trade blade to have a play with :D

Hi Nachesh "i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture"
I see where you are comeing from here ..do you know what the traditional methods would have been?id love to know and i was hopeing someone with the knowhow would post and share the knowledge.I cant realy see how my methods could be that diffrent ...for sandpaper they would have just used a similar grade of stone and they presumably would have used arsenic and acid to etch it? :)

"Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture."I tried to be as respectful as i could believe me[ i put alot of time into makeing the staining process as traditional as i could] ....and i was perfectly aware that i could have just sanded the blade in five min,s useing a sanding pad on a angle grinder and then polished it useing a metal polishing wheel.But i chose to spend a day and a half sanding it by hand with 6 grades of sandpaper to near mirror polish[not an easy task i can tell you my hands were killing me at the end :) ].The only acid i used was sulfuric acid from a battery ..and i only wiped the blade a few times with a rag soaked in it....this is quite a mild acid[i never even wore gloves] :D
I am confident this method will work for any keris blade ive stained 2 other blades 1 before and 1 after and both responded equally well, it just a matter of how long you leave the blade in the solution[the longer you leave it the darker it becomes].Its not rocket science :Dif you ask me the real secret to a good looking blade is how well it was forged originaly[if the beauty is there then the etch and stain will bring it out]

[nechesh]

Hi Smashy. I wasn't really questioning your sanding techniques. Traditionally a Bali blade would be polished though i am not particularly certain how this is actually done. As for your staining process, i give you kudos for grinding up your own from realgar. From what i know about the process the arsenic isn't used in the cleaning stage though. Usually that is done first and then a mixture of arsenic and lime juice is used to stain. Your method seemed a bit unorthodox, but if it worked.... :) It's the battery acid part that worries me and also Wayne's suggest of other harsher acids. There will always be disagreement between collectors on this point, i suppose, dependant upon how much you relate to both the cultural and the mystical aspects of the keris, but my feeling has always been that in this case, the old ways are the best ways (for the spirit of the keris) and if it ain't broke, don't fix it. :) I admire your enterprise, but i don't think battery acid is for me. ;)

[BSMStar]

The only acid i used was sulfuric acid from a battery ..and i only wiped the blade a few times with a rag soaked in it....this is quite a mild acid[i never even wore gloves] :D

Captain,

I would add a word of caution using (such as car) battery acid... depending on the age of the battery, the acid can easily "burn" your skin. Try some on concrete and you will see what I mean. I recommend using the proper safety equipment (rubber gloves and glasses for you eyes), I would hate to hear about a fellow forumite being injured by acid of any kind.

As to the question should this be done or is it an improvement... it is a difficult and personal call that depends on the piece needing restoration, its condition and the skill of the person doing the restoration. I may cringe at some of the methods uses here, but if the Captain is happy and the results are good...

I do not believe we (who are not trained in the correct cultural methodology) can improve what was done before (at best it is modification, not an improvement). All that we can "improve" is the appearance that is personally pleasing verses its current condition. Is this the right thing to do? I believe this is at the heart of your question nechesh, a difficult question that depends on many elements I think.

[tom hyle]

Cap'n Welcome to the wonderful world of taking care of antiques in front of people; there is nothing you can do or refrain from doing that someone won't complain about bitterly, so don't get too 'sturbed. I continue to congratulate you on a job well done, and believe that though it might've liked to hear some nice songs or prayers while being cleaned, you've otherwise kept quite well enough to the native ways of the piece. Battery acid may not be as yummie as fruit juice, but since it does the same thing, may I suggest it is more like a vitamen pill than a poison one? Otherwise, it's just what a native would do if he could afford to, and I can only add that it would've been good to sharpen it while you were sanding. kudos.

[nechesh]

Gee Tom, can't say i see much "bitterness" in my comments. I was just stating my opinion, much the same as you were. :)

[BSMStar]

It's the battery acid part that worries me and also Wayne's suggest of other harsher acids. There will always be disagreement between collectors on this point, i suppose, dependant upon how much you relate to both the cultural and the mystical aspects of the keris, but my feeling has always been that in this case, the old ways are the best ways

Hi nechesh,

First I would like to address that different acids would react differently with different substances. It is a matter of selecting the best acid for the job... To me, harshness is more of a degree of concentration or dilution than which acid is being used (in this case). Notice the concentrations I am suggesting. As to rust removal, I believe I stated in extreme cases (in other words, its already "junk"), and even then, dilution is an option I would suggest (always start with a less aggressive solution).

I can fully understand the Captain's position on what to do with blade that is less than "prime." Being a Japanese sword collector, one is always faces with the dilemma... is it valuable enough to sent it to Japan and have it re-polished at over $100 an inch (plus furniture... so you can rap up $3,000 to $5,000 into a sword real fast) or do something else (especially if the blade is only worth $500 even after being polished).... I have a hand made blade from around 1910, the Japanese will not accept for polish because it is not from the Samurai period (its their law). Now what do you do?

I would not take a "do it yourself" approach with an expensive Pusaka... but on a "reject" piece that I have nothing to lose.... It won't be the Indonesian way and it should not compete with their way, but as a last resort to "save" or bring "new life" to a piece, I think it is worth the experiment rather than shove it in a drawer to let it rust away. Who knows what we may learn? As for the better blades, I agree with you nechesh... let it be done the correct and traditional way.

I will try to post a picture of what can happen if one gets too aggressive with acid. It is a crying shame.

[BSMStar]

Fair warning for you faint of heart... do not look at the following image... acid burns... and can destroy a Keris! :eek:























:(

[capt.smash]

Holy smoke dude what happened there? :eek: Did you do it or is it an example you have seen?

[Rick]

Of an OD on acid . :D

[nechesh]

Fair warning for you faint of heart... do not look at the following image... acid burns... and can destroy a Keris! :eek::(


:eek: OUCH!!! I took too much acid once back in the mid '70s, but that's another story..... :D

[Battara]

Those two are acid trips I don't want to take! :eek:

When it comes to etching blades, I do feel that when in doubt, less is more (and I do a lot of etching).

[Battara]

Those two are acid trips I don't want to take! :eek:

When it comes to etching blades, I do feel that when in doubt, less is more (and I do a lot of etching).

And in the case of my Balinese keris, I have left it alone (thank you forumites for your advise). If it ain't broke, don't break it anymore (especially in my case). On the other hand, nice job Smashy!

[BSMStar]

Holy smoke dude what happened there? :eek: Did you do it or is it an example you have seen?

Well Captain...

This is an example I saw; I would never treat a blade this way! I think someone was trying to artificially age this blade... and ended up creating a monster. :eek:

What someone will do (and end up ruining) for money. :(

On the other hand Captain, you are trying to "clean up" a blade, not age it. You are trying to bring it back to its old glory, not create a fake glory for it. This will not happen (what happened to that blade) with acids unless it is through ignorance or intent (in other words, they mean to do it) or both.

People are going to try this (restoring blades); I hate to see ignorance ruining what can be good blades. At least we can say, "start small and do the least possible" and offer a little guidance. As for intent... (I don't think I can voice my opinion on the forum).

[rasdan]

[QUOTE=BSMStar]Well Captain...

This is an example I saw; I would never treat a blade this way! I think someone was trying to artificially age this blade... and ended up creating a monster. :eek:
QUOTE]

Like what happened in Dr. Demento's "Monster Mash".

"I was working in the lab late one night,
When my eyes beheld on an eery sight,
For my keris on the slab began to rise,
And suddenly to my suprise..."

:D :D

[Rick]

[QUOTE=BSMStar]Well Captain...

This is an example I saw; I would never treat a blade this way! I think someone was trying to artificially age this blade... and ended up creating a monster. :eek:
QUOTE]

Like what happened in Dr. Demento's "Monster Mash".

"I was working in the lab late one night,
When my eyes beheld on an eery sight,
For my keris on the slab began to rise,
And suddenly to my suprise..."

:D :D

Wow Ras , I used to hang out with the co-author of that song Lenny Capizzi back in the bad old days around Harvard Square . :D

[rasdan]

Really Rick? It must had been one hell of a creepy time. :D


- The guests include wolfman, dracula and his son... :D

[Rick]

Good times Ras , good times . :D
I got to see and hang out with all the major players in the American folk and bluegrass scene of the mid-sixties . :)

/ but I digress ......... :o

[capt.smash]

"Like what happened in Dr. Demento's "Monster Mash".

"I was working in the lab late one night,
When my eyes beheld on an eery sight,
For my keris on the slab began to rise,
And suddenly to my suprise..."


LMAO :D clowns :D

[BSMStar]

“I was working in the lab late one night,
When my eyes beheld an eerie sight,
For my keris in the bath started to smoke,
And then suddenly I began to choke...
(It began to melt…)
It was in acid, Smash,
(It began to melt…)
I just put on a splash,
(It began to melt…)
I pulled it out in a flash,
(It began to melt…)
Now I’ve lost all my cash!" :rolleyes:

[rasdan]

:D :D :D

Now, that is a good one!!! LOL :D

[tom hyle]

Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials.


Not been following this one for a few days, and find myself disturbed by your comments. First off, I never directed anything to any individual person (this arises again and again), second off, I do think however there IS a certain bitterness or anger latent in your commentary; not so much in the use of what may or may not be contempt-quotes (as the things quoted, though quite removed from their original context, are actual quotes), but much moreso in the way the meaning of what I said is twisted to form an attack against it. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BEING AN IMPROVEMENT OVER THE ACTUAL PROCESSES OF THE ORIGINAL CULTURE. THAT IS A MADE-UP THING AND I CAN"T EVEN SEE IT AS AN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I SAID. (I said it was within the tradition of the original culture, or a reasonable imitation....no I'm not gonna go look right now.......and an improvement to the individual object. I consider it fairly obvious that said improvement is to its condition.) Twisting the words of someone you want to oppose into something they didn't say so you can oppose them seems in the realm of complaining bitterly or something like it to me. Also, your dire and unfounded (for the blade; the Captain's skin is all I'm worried about) warnings seem to me to carry an unwarranted emotional tone (and there's no true comparison between the Captain's actions and the 1/2 disolved k(e)ris, whether it is excavated or artificially aged, though I might add I'd be surprised if it's condition had not occured within its original culture, so what's that say?). Additionally, each person who complains civilly in a setting where civility is enforced goes a certain distance toward representing others who don't speak, and even to represent more than is openly said. Don't you know politicians say each letter they get represents 1,000 people who didn't write? One thousand. Additionally, there's a big forum here of many past posts on this and similar subjects, and more than one post expressing concerns on this particular thread. Additionally, there's a big world out here, full of people with whom I've interacted, and which experiences I refer to, of course, as readily as whatever has just been said on "X" thread on this forum, as anyone's knowledge is formed by their experience. Additionally, I occasionally get randomly editted or complained to by the forum staff because someone has gotten in a huff over their inability to interact with my reality, and it's not a trend I'm real happy with. So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible.
I certainly never said a professional k(e)ris surfacer wouldn't/couldn't have done just as well, and maybe even better, though I think the work seen here is of a quality such that doing it "better" is more a matter of taste/philosophy than quality at this point (then, this is often the case, though this fact is very difficult for many people to absorb; the consciousness of social paradigms/memes/etc. does not come readily to many human minds.).
So, to review, A/ I didn't say that you, Nechesh, specifically complained bitterly, although B/ It wouldn't have been unjustified if I did. C/ Jeeze; This sort of thing usually doesn't come up unless I say something about some dead guy who happens to be from the same nation as someone, but it's pretty much the same issue; I've threatened someone's paradigm with the truth.....

[Rick]

Not been following this one for a few days, and find myself disturbed by your comments. First off, I never directed anything to any individual person (this arises again and again), second off, I do think however there IS a certain bitterness or anger latent in your commentary; not so much in the use of what may or may not be contempt-quotes (as the things quoted, though quite removed from their original context, are actual quotes), but much moreso in the way the meaning of what I said is twisted to form an attack against it. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BEING AN IMPROVEMENT OVER THE ACTUAL PROCESSES OF THE ORIGINAL CULTURE. THAT IS A MADE-UP THING AND I CAN"T EVEN SEE IT AS AN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I SAID. (I said it was within the tradition of the original culture, or a reasonable imitation....no I'm not gonna go look right now.......and an improvement to the individual object. I consider it fairly obvious that said improvement is to its condition.) Twisting the words of someone you want to oppose into something they didn't say so you can oppose them seems in the realm of complaining bitterly or something like it to me. Also, your dire and unfounded (for the blade; the Captain's skin is all I'm worried about) warnings seem to me to carry an unwarranted emotional tone (and there's no true comparison between the Captain's actions and the 1/2 disolved k(e)ris, whether it is excavated or artificially aged, though I might add I'd be surprised if it's condition had not occured within its original culture, so what's that say?). Additionally, each person who complains civilly in a setting where civility is enforced goes a certain distance toward representing others who don't speak, and even to represent more than is openly said. Don't you know politicians say each letter they get represents 1,000 people who didn't write? One thousand. Additionally, there's a big forum here of many past posts on this and similar subjects, and more than one post expressing concerns on this particular thread. Additionally, there's a big world out here, full of people with whom I've interacted, and which experiences I refer to, of course, as readily as whatever has just been said on "X" thread on this forum, as anyone's knowledge is formed by their experience. Additionally, I occasionally get randomly editted or complained to by the forum staff because someone has gotten in a huff over their inability to interact with my reality, and it's not a trend I'm real happy with. So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible.
I certainly never said a professional k(e)ris surfacer wouldn't/couldn't have done just as well, and maybe even better, though I think the work seen here is of a quality such that doing it "better" is more a matter of taste/philosophy than quality at this point (then, this is often the case, though this fact is very difficult for many people to absorb; the consciousness of social paradigms/memes/etc. does not come readily to many human minds.).
So, to review, A/ I didn't say that you, Nechesh, specifically complained bitterly, although B/ It wouldn't have been unjustified if I did. C/ Jeeze; This sort of thing usually doesn't come up unless I say something about some dead guy who happens to be from the same nation as someone, but it's pretty much the same issue; I've threatened someone's paradigm with the truth.....

Here's how it went down :

Tom :
" This to me is the ultimate journey in collecting; when you get into the actual processes of the original culture, and can give the piece even more respect than to preserve it; to improve it; all congratulations to you, and thanks for sharing. "

Nechesh :
" Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials. "

Tom:
" Cap'n Welcome to the wonderful world of taking care of antiques in front of people; there is nothing you can do or refrain from doing that someone won't complain about bitterly, so don't get too 'sturbed. I continue to congratulate you on a job well done, and believe that though it might've liked to hear some nice songs or prayers while being cleaned, you've otherwise kept quite well enough to the native ways of the piece. Battery acid may not be as yummie as fruit juice, but since it does the same thing, may I suggest it is more like a vitamen pill than a poison one? Otherwise, it's just what a native would do if he could afford to, and I can only add that it would've been good to sharpen it while you were sanding. kudos. "

Nechesh :
" Gee Tom, can't say i see much "bitterness" in my comments. I was just stating my opinion, much the same as you were. "

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guys , I certainly hope that you can possibly settle your differences via PM (personal message) I would be quite unhappy to see this thread get ugly .

If this is not an option for you then I would politely suggest that you both "explore the function of the 'Ignore' feature" to quote an esteemed moderator on this forum .

[BSMStar]

Smashy...

OK, I am thinking about doing the insane. I have a Javanese Keris (a gift from a dear friend) that has seen much better days. It has some rust and all of the black is gone.

I basically want to follow your process, but instead of using traditional Warangan, I am going to try Potassium Sulfide. Can you send me you procedure and I will post my process, with the step-by-step pictures (if it comes out good or bad). My only concern is how black the blade will be... and will the nickel stay bright. :o

[nechesh]

Sorry Tom, i can assure you that there is absolutely NO bitterness or anger in my commentary, towards you or anyone else participating in this thread. Obviously i misunderstood your meaning, but if you re-read your statement again, perhaps you can see that the sentence structure you used could lend itself to my interpretation. I seriously had NO intent to twist your words for the sake of an argument. I had NO intent nor reason to attack you. I must also say that while i can accept the responsibilty for my own misunderstandings, i in no way am willing to consider myself representative of those who choose not to speak on this forum, nor do i take responsibility for any more than the words i actually wrote. You go on to suggest that:
"So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible."
I agree, so why would you be reading between my lines looking for anger and bitterness that does not exist? You have not threatened my paradigm with any great truths, i assure you; truth is relative anyway, both yours and mine, and there is no use getting one's panties in a twist about them.
I agree with Rick that if we need further clarification and understanding that we should take it to PM, but for the record i did feel the need to address your comments in a public forum.Once again, sorry for any misunderstanding. :)

[tom hyle]

Though (perhaps for reasons of brevity/editorial clarity) Rick's recap left me hanging on them, both BSMStar (who posted the skeleton pic) and Battara had also expressed concerns in the matter, as I have already said. As far as a simple misunderstanding goes, hey, no problem, and if the shoes even do fit, that doesn't mean you have to keep wearing them (that, and not to be insulting or smartassed, BTW, was why I said it may not be reasonable or possible to not read into people's words, for instance; I noticed I'd done what I didn't like, and couldn't see any way entirely not to do it; so I thought I'd at least point out the inconsistency.....); I don't think it's clear to....maybe anyone else.....that I actually, really was not addressing nechesh and his concerns particular per se as such, but the world at large and its concerns, and that seems like the only fact I haven't already made clear about the matter; seems clear to me. No offense taken, no offense intended; no harm, no foul. That's my last public word on that.

[BSMStar]

Smashy...

OK, I am thinking about doing the insane. I have a Javanese Keris (a gift from a dear friend) that has seen much better days. It has some rust and all of the black is gone.

I basically want to follow your process, but instead of using traditional Warangan, I am going to try Potassium Sulfide. Can you send me you procedure and I will post my process, with the step-by-step pictures (if it comes out good or bad). My only concern is how black the blade will be... and will the nickel stay bright. :o

Are you out there? :)

[Rick]

Hi BSM ,
My two cents worth of advice to you would be to treat and gently remove the rust . As for trying different and untraditional chemicals on a Jawa keris ; if I were you I would ascertain the age , quality , and value (not necessarily monetary) of such a blade before undertaking such a project . There are places that you can send the blade to have a traditional staining job done .

Smashy's piece is a Bali keris , smooth ; but your Jawa blade is likely rough . Please try to remember that these are cultural artifacts and one's responsibility as a collector is to "First do no harm" and as cultural artifacts they are due a certain amount of respect .

Now if you know for a fact that this blade of yours is a piece made to sell to the Western market and it is a piece of crap to boot then that may change things ; but PLEASE look at the ruined blade at the top of this page . That , to the best of my knowledge , is a 450 year old blade , it belongs to me and every time I look at it a great sadness comes over me for the desecration it has endured .

[tom hyle]

Again, as I said about the disintegrated one; that may be true; it may be over etched, but I'm not sure (have you specific knowledge?) why you think that wasn't done within its native setting? I have seen Java k(e)ris so overwashed and moreso many times, and pretty usually ID'd (not usually by k[e]ris sellers, as I don't much buy k[e]ris) as traditionally washed, just for many years, and perhaps "too many" (for however we can identify that) times.

[capt.smash]

HI BSMStar :) show some pics of the blade or PM me some and we can discuss what to do :D

[BSMStar]

Hi All,

Let me assure you (and I guess I did not explain myself well :o ) that I would not attempt to etch and stain a "good" blade.

Rick, I fully agree with you. But let me ask a question... If the Javanese sell a keris in plastic dress (yes the sheath and hilt are plastic) to the "tourist" market, it is rusty and has no warangan stain left, do they consider it to be junk?

To me, the blade may be early 20c or late 19c, but I am not an expert.

I have no intention to grind, sand or polish the blade. I just want to remove the rust and restain it. As I have stated before, less is more... and I have etched my share of iron meteorites and I have not lost one yet :) The only question in my mind is the staining... I may end up with a totally black blade (but that would be an improvement over its current condition) of course I will stain it slowly and stop the process if I need to (etching I have done, staining is a new thing for me with a keris). I do not foresee damaging the blade in any way; the stain can be removed by a proper acid etch again. Then I would have a clean shiny blade that would need to be properly stained.

I will post pictures as my schedule allows.

FYI, LabanTayo has seen this keris.

[BSMStar]

Hi BSM ,
PLEASE look at the ruined blade at the top of this page . That , to the best of my knowledge , is a 450 year old blade , it belongs to me and every time I look at it a great sadness comes over me for the desecration it has endured .

Hi Rick,

Remember my thread on the possible Pajajaran keris? It's likely to be 600 to 800 years old. I'll share a towel with you. :(

I have no intention to allow this to happen to even a "junker" keris. If it is a keris worth saving, it is an object worth respecting... and to not allow that kind of damage to occur by my action. I am confident in what I can do... but the stain.

[BSMStar]

Again, as I said about the disintegrated one; that may be true; it may be over etched, but I'm not sure (have you specific knowledge?) why you think that wasn't done within its native setting? I have seen Java k(e)ris so overwashed and moreso many times, and pretty usually ID'd (not usually by k[e]ris sellers, as I don't much buy k[e]ris) as traditionally washed, just for many years, and perhaps "too many" (for however we can identify that) times.

Hi Tom,

This picture came out of Java. That is why I suspected it was done on purpose to "age" the blade. I believe it is a newly made blade of "low" quality... but it did not deserve to be treated like that (I am sure with the intent to push it off as an old blade if it worked :mad: ).

[Rick]

Hi All,

Let me assure you (and I guess I did not explain myself well :o ) that I would not attempt to etch and stain a "good" blade.

Rick, I fully agree with you. But let me ask a question... If the Javanese sell a keris in plastic dress (yes the sheath and hilt are plastic) to the "tourist" market, it is rusty and has no warangan stain left, do they consider it to be junk?

To me, the blade may be early 20c or late 19c, but I am not an expert.

I have no intention to grind, sand or polish the blade. I just want to remove the rust and restain it. As I have stated before, less is more... and I have etched my share of iron meteorites and I have not lost one yet :) The only question in my mind is the staining... I may end up with a totally black blade (but that would be an improvement over its current condition) of course I will stain it slowly and stop the process if I need to (etching I have done, staining is a new thing for me with a keris). I do not foresee damaging the blade in any way; the stain can be removed by a proper acid etch again. Then I would have a clean shiny blade that would need to be properly stained.

I will post pictures as my schedule allows.

FYI, LabanTayo has seen this keris.

Hi BSMstar , from your description it sounds like a good candidate for an experiment in the adventures of staining . :)

I tend to over dramatize when it comes to altering an original piece .
I also tend to apply this warning as a stock answer just for the sake of consistency .

Please pardon any offense my earlier reply to you may have caused . :o
I am sure that you will do no harm . :)

Looking forward to watching the process as you report .

Rick

[tom hyle]

BTW, my sentence structure was a bit complex, but it was Rick's example I've seen as bad as and worse than many times; the other one, the one you could read through is a particularly badly-off example though; much worse than Rick's, IMHO :( The poor thing......

[BSMStar]

Hi BSMstar , from your description it sounds like a good candidate for an experiment in the adventures of staining . :)

I tend to over dramatize when it comes to altering an original piece .
I also tend to apply this warning as a stock answer just for the sake of consistency .

Please pardon any offense my earlier reply to you may have caused . :o
I am sure that you will do no harm . :)

Looking forward to watching the process as you report .

Rick

Hi Rick!

It is very difficult to cause offense to me... and no pardon need, no offense taken. You are correct to remind and warn us of what we are about to under take (and not to do so lightly). I am just a student of life like everyone else... But, you have my permission to beat me in public if I ever do anything to a keris, the likes of what was done to the keris in the pictures we have shown!!! (My wife will gladly help... btw, she doesn't need a reason, she would just be glad to help anyway, just let her know when to show up). :D :D :D

I hope the only modification that occurs is the appearance of the keris being stained. Otherwise, visually there should be no other changes. I will start another thread when I gather all the materials and I am ready to start. I think LabanTayo wants to observe if he can swing it.

Captain... I am interested in your warangan or staining process, anything special to not have the nickel blacken? Extra steps?

[nechesh]

Hey Wayne, have you checked out this past thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000717.html
Wong Desa gives a recommendation of method that you might like to try. I have used it myself with fairly good results. My suggestion would be to make sure that all the water you use is distilled and the air temperature is also an important factor. I seem to have given some people the impression that i don't believe we should try ti improve keris, just preserve. This could not be further from the truth. :)

[BSMStar]

Hey Wayne, have you checked out this past thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000717.html
Wong Desa gives a recommendation of method that you might like to try. I have used it myself with fairly good results. My suggestion would be to make sure that all the water you use is distilled and the air temperature is also an important factor. I seem to have given some people the impression that i don't believe we should try ti improve keris, just preserve. This could not be further from the truth. :)

Hi nechesh,

I understand... this is an emotional subject, which most do not realize until it bits them... For me, I am just as passionate as anyone about preserving and not damaging the least significant of these fine treasures of Indonesia. Once lost, they are lost forever! Truly, I understand both sides of the issue, and would not bring to harm a fine keris (or even a not so fine keris).

Thanks for the link, although I have already come across it in my searching. Have you tried the Arsenic Trioxide approach? I would be surprised if it works unless there is an element of sulfur involved… or my chemistry my have to go back to the drawing board. One of my fellow Chemist ended up agreeing with my assumption of the Sulfur ion exchange to Iron (independently, btw, I have worked in an R&D Lab for over 23 years)… but if Arsenic Trioxide (if it is not a brand name, or chemically more to it) created a black stain, well… I’m more than a bit confused. But, that’s the fun of it.

[Rick]

Arsenic Trioxide plus liver of sulpher perhaps ?
Remember I am no chemist . :)

[tom hyle]

Liver of sulphur? I believe my mother used to make that, with onions and gravy :D

[BSMStar]

Liver of sulphur? I believe my mother used to make that, with onions and gravy :D

I think I'll pass. :o

[nechesh]

Yep, Tom, that's the way my mom made liver as well. :( :D
No Wayne, I just used the arsenic trioxide, just as specified by the formula in the thread i passed on. It works just fine. :)

[capt.smash]

BSMStar no special steps taken i suspected the acidity of the fruit juice keeps the nickel clean although it did stain very slightly but after i removed the blade from the solution and ran a rag over it .....[there seemed to be a residual loose covering of stain all over the blade] it wiped off to the level that you see it now and has stayed like this despite weeks of handleing and further whipeing...i got the impresion that if i had left it any longer then the nickel would indeed have been stained....i also suspect that if this uccured then you could bathe or polish the blade with a rag soaked in lime juice to get the desired afect as the reaction that causes the staining afects and takes purchase much more on the steel than the nickel steel. :)

[BSMStar]

OK nechesh.

I have posted a new thread... Plastic Keris. There you will see what it looks like now.

[BSMStar]

BSMStar no special steps taken i suspected the acidity of the fruit juice keeps the nickel clean although it did stain very slightly but after i removed the blade from the solution and ran a rag over it .....[there seemed to be a residual loose covering of stain all over the blade] it wiped off to the level that you see it now and has stayed like this despite weeks of handleing and further whipeing...i got the impresion that if i had left it any longer then the nickel would indeed have been stained....i also suspect that if this uccured then you could bathe or polish the blade with a rag soaked in lime juice to get the desired afect as the reaction that causes the staining afects and takes purchase much more on the steel than the nickel steel. :)

Thanks Smashy!

If my memory is correct (and I am getting older, so don't hold me to it), Potassium Sulfide reacts more quickly than traditional Warangan. So I will start with a more dilute solution. I will experiment on the pesi first and see what happens. Thanks for the help. :D :D :D

[BSMStar]

I been looking for Arsenic Trioxide (As2O3)... and I found it, it is a bit pricey. I still think Potassium Sulfide will do the trick (its cheap and safer to use), it will make silver black! It is used to make patinas on other metals too. I guess we'll see what happens...

[nechesh]

Wayne, when i bought my arsenic it was $25 a gram, but the hazzardous material fee was almost as much as the arsenic itself. But using the method i use actually uses very little at a time, so i still have a bit left. You will probably get a good effect from potassium sulfide, but i doubt you will get the "correct" color for the particular iron of your blade. Given the keris you are experimenting on this might not be a big concern, but it would probably make a difference in a cultural context.

[Rick]

Hi Wayne , I have even run into problems getting one (yes I sin) particular keris blade even clean enough for staining . I washed it with every available solvent from acetone to paint stripper , long soaks , strong detergent afterward . Then I would put it in my oven to warm it for staining and it still reeked of sandalwood oil , even after repeated efforts . The blade seemed to be impregnated through and through with the stuff .

I have tried Liver of sulpher (get out your gas mask!) on blades with no success . I think I've also used Muriatic , FECL , most anything I could find that was readily available . It will be interesting to see what your results will be .

[BSMStar]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the heads up!

If you have any contamination from oils, staining will not occur.

The blade I have pictured, smells kind of like ivory soap. It has been washed and blacked (maybe ink like a magic maker?) but not oiled. Maybe I'll get lucky and not have to work through the oil problem?

Muriatic or Hydrochloric Acid (HCI) could be used to etch the blade, but would do so poorly on its own.

FECL (I assume you mean Ferric Chloride) is also mildly acidic and used widely to etch blades.

I do not think either of these will remove oil. Generally, solvents would be your best approach (you may have to immerse the blade over nite, scrub and repeat until the oil is removed), if you know what solvent would break down or dissolve the oil you are dealing with (you may have more than just natural organic oils, but mineral oil and other synthetic oils, which would likely need a different solvent to efficiently remove it). Unfortunately, you have to know the oil you are removing to know what solvent to use.

Once you are down to bare metal, Potassium Sulfide will blacken the iron. And yes, it creates some H2S (hydrogen sulfide, btw.. it is toxic), the good ole rotten egg smell (it can't be any worse than my wife’s feet, can it?). :D That's why I use it outside with plenty of ventilation.

I will show the good, the bad and the ugly (sounds like a movie).

[Rick]

Hi Wayne ,
I have tried Acetone soaks , but not overnight , and a product called kleenwood(sp?) which is a mixture of acetone and other solvents who's names escape me at the moment . I always figured that acetone would cut any kind of oil .
Any other solvent suggestions ?

Fecl , yes ferric chloride ; what is the proper designation for this chemical ?

Psst , where can I score some Potassium Sulfide man ? ;) :D

One more thing ; pray your Signigant Other does not read this forum ! :D :D

[tom hyle]

strong alcohol is often good to try; it's real cheap, so an overnight bath in it is not expensive to try, if you have a long tray or cylinder of some kind. Never heard of it hurting a blade. It's great if you want to strip down black or brown hardened-down-oil patina, or some Irian Jayan paint; great cheap solvent. 90%+ isopropyl is usually available.

[BSMStar]

Hi Wayne ,
I have tried Acetone soaks , but not overnight , and a product called kleenwood(sp?) which is a mixture of acetone and other solvents who's names escape me at the moment . I always figured that acetone would cut any kind of oil .
Any other solvent suggestions ?

Fecl , yes ferric chloride ; what is the proper designation for this chemical ?

Psst , where can I score some Potassium Sulfide man ? ;) :D

One more thing ; pray your Signigant Other does not read this forum ! :D :D

Hi Rick,

Although I work with the stuff, I'll ask a "higher" order and see what response I get. Our application is a bit different. I fear that most of the solvents I have access to, you may have a little difficulty in finding (do you know a local paint chemist??? they could hook you up).

FeCl3... I was lazy with Caps and lower case back in my college days... did I catch heck for it (and then the professor started marking my grades down for it... that fixed the problem).

They got the stuff on the net (you may want to surf for a better deal)... but since you are almost a neighbor, you can try Cole Parmer:
http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_list.asp?cls=23421&par=0,17460,8216,40313&cat=1&sch=852&sku=&sel=
Cat #7778-80-5, 500 grams for $27.80

Rick, what can I say... She loves me! (maybe you can show me the secret Staff delete key?) :D :D :D

[BSMStar]

strong alcohol is often good to try; it's real cheap, so an overnight bath in it is not expensive to try, if you have a long tray or cylinder of some kind. Never heard of it hurting a blade. It's great if you want to strip down black or brown hardened-down-oil patina, or some Irian Jayan paint; great cheap solvent. 90%+ isopropyl is usually available.

Isopropanol will not hurt a blade, there is 1n-butylnol, methanol and ethanol, all are alcohol solvents that have different "cutting" properties and will not hurt a blade. All of these alcohols are toxic to some degree (keep off the ethanol, mama always said it was bad).

Sorry, I not knowledgeable enough in this area to recommend to best.

[capt.smash]

Two products i know for removeing oils are cellulos thinners and panel whipe[alittle milder] these are both used in the auto paint industry and are standard products ,i used panel whipe on the bali blade,it is designed to remove ANY oils from a section of car bodywork before it is sprayed[even the oil from a finger print will react with the paint].Personaly id try soaking the blade in cellulos thinners for 24hrs with an ocasional skrub with an old toothbrush that should do the trick :)

[BSMStar]

Hey Smashy,

Thanks for the info... I only hope my venture looks half as good as yours! :)

[tom hyle]

Yeah, you really shouldn't breathe any of these cleaning solutions; in a closed room you can get drunk on isopropyl fumes real fast, and you know that's not good for you. More expensive, but I don't think there's any reason pure grain alcohol shouln't be similar, and not as bad for you, but ventilation is the main thing; I like to do things anywhere between a room with open windows to outside, depending on toxicity, etc.

[Rick]

If you want to use a glass vessel which makes it easy to watch the process in action for better control try a Florists shop ; they most always have very tall ,reasonably inexpensive tapered glass vases . My example is 22.5" tall X 4.25" at the opening .

There's also the PVC pipe route but it offers no visibility while etching .

[BSMStar]

Rick,

After hobnobbing with my fellow wizards... hmmm, I mean chemist (sorry, that was the Wizard of Oz coming out):

Wash the blade in a solution of TSP (Trisodium Phosphate), and rinse well with water. Dry. Then use either VM&P Naphtha (faster evaporating) or Mineral Spirits (slower evaporating) to solvent wash/soak the blade. Do not substitute charcoal lighter fluid (it is usually Mineral Spirits with contaminates that prevent it from being used as Mineral Spirits). Be aware that both solvents are flamable, do not use near sparks or open flame. Use outdoors with plenty of ventilation!

TSP (Trisodium Phosphate), a detergent.

VM & P Naphtha - A fast evaporating, clear, colorless aliphatic hydrocarbon solvent. Used primarily to thin exterior or interior oil based paints, varnishes and enamels for spray applications where mineral spirits drying time is to slow.

Mineral Spirits - A thinner for oil based paints, enamels, varnishes, stains, etc. Ideal for cleaning brushes or rollers. An excellent solvent for oil, grease, tar and wax.

All of these are available in a hardware store.

[Rick]

Wayne,
You mean I'm not in Kansas anymore ? :eek: :D

You know TSP had entirely slipped my mind and I used to paint houses , what can I say but DOH !! :o

Thanks for the jog . :D

[BSMStar]

Wayne,
You mean I'm not in Kansas anymore ? :eek: :D

You aren't??? You never told me you moved? Or did they move Kansas again? :D :D :D

(Even though I can see alot of gulls here from time to time, I think you are a little closer to the beach than I am... its a loooong drive for me to see the big pond.) :rolleyes:

[Rick]

Wayne , I am IN the ocean :D , as far east as you can get in MA . :)

[BSMStar]

Rick,

Yea, I know... on that nice little spit of land that points north in eastern most part of MA, (I already looked it up over a satellite, just wave up at me). I told you that you were closer to the beach. :D :D

[Rick]

Time to get out the cloak of invisibility .. :eek: :eek:

[Andrew]

And you thought you were being sooo cute by posting your coordinates when I urged folks to list their location.... :rolleyes: ;)

[Rick]

Hey , everyone loves a challenge , no ? :D
And I am kinda cute . ;)

Antway let's get back to serious stuff here .
We really digress . :D

[BSMStar]

And you thought you were being sooo cute by posting your coordinates when I urged folks to list their location.... :rolleyes: ;)
(Living on the big CC)

If you want to play...
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/


(Rick, my wife asked how cute -- don't answer that, it will only encourage her) ;)
OK, I'm done... back to the topic.

[BSMStar]

Do not use the earlier link for Potassium Sulfide...

What started as Potassium Sulfide ended pointing to Potassium Sulfate (in the search that was ran), which is not likely to work.

Try this one (I checked it personally)...

http://www.rainbowsupply.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamTxt=liver+of+sulf ur&txtsearchParamCat=ALL&txtsearchParamType=ALL&txtsearchParamMan=ALL&txtsearchParamVen=ALL&txtFromSearch=fromSearch

The cost does not look too bad, but there is a $10 handling fee on top of shipping that ends up costing more than the product (almost sounds like some of those "rare" swords on ebay :p ).

My apologies for the mistake. :o

[capt.smash]

Have you tried it out yet? :)

[BSMStar]

Hi Smashy,

Not yet, I am waiting on the Liver to arrive. LabanTayo is now out of town too, so I might wait until he gets back (in about two weeks or so). I've been looking at the keris... it a beauty, so I hope this stains properly. Otherwise I will probably send it off. :)

[Kiai Carita]

Captain Smash' keris from Bali looks very nice. It is a Bali keris like a Javanese keris of the dapur pasopati. The engraving and the carving is intended to be inlaid and wrapped with gold and might have been done anytime. Alot of new tourist keris are made this way. Usualy one would only get the engraving and carving done when one had the money for the gold or one had been given a promotion from the Raja (in Bali never have there been Sultans except visiting).

Although Sultan Agung gave kinatah emas (carved and then wrapped in gold) to everyone of the rank Bupati upwards to celebrate his victory over the kadipaten Pati (with the elephant-lion Gajah Singo symbol on the gandhik), Sultan Agung did not invent the laying of gold on kerises. I have seen Singosari keris with sinarasah (another technique of gold inlay in kerisology) and Singosari was the Java kingdom of 1222-1292, which was founded by Ken Arok who killed Mpu Gandring with the famously coursed unfinished keris.

The use of sandpaper and battery acids in cleaning a keris can very easily change the pamor. Opening the pamor (silak waja) should be done once by the Mpu as part of the prayer of the making of the keris which begins and ends with offerings to the gods. The use of warangan is mistakenly called etching but it is not etching as there is no intent of taking away any part of the blade surface but only to contrast the earthly iron from the heavenly meteorite. The pamor on this blade seems now to be uler lulut (tame caterpillar) believed to bring prosperity and make people believe the speach of the owner.

One traditional method of cleaning a keris is using a wooden trough soak the rusty keris in the water of several coconuts that have fermented for several days. To get this buy several coconuts that are still in their shells and thus still have the water in them. You should be able to hear the water when you shake the nut. Every nut would have between 1/4-1 cup of water in it. This is not coconut milk don't make a mistake and get coconut milk.

Every few days, take the blade out and scrub with lime. Rinse the blade and soak again in the same solution do not change it rather let it ferment further. It can take weeks to clean a very rusty keris but patience is a key component in kerisology.

In Bali lore the bull is assosciated with Andini and is the steed of Syiwa the king of the Gods. Tigers are assosciated with courage, military. In wayang stories Pasopati is one of the keris of the hero Arjuna who together with Krisna is the avatar of the God Wisnu.

I hope this post is useful,
Kiai Carita.

[BSMStar]

The use of warangan is mistakenly called etching but it is not etching as there is no intent of taking away any part of the blade surface but only to contrast the earthly iron from the heavenly meteorite.

Hello Kiai Carita,

Just to clarify what you mean... you referred to meteorite in the blade, does the blade contain meteoritic material or are you referring to nickel being added to the iron (and it represents the heavenly)? If meteoritic material is present in the blade, is this common and do you know the source? Thanks.

[capt.smash]

Hi guys ive just got a new project blade to work on,its in bad shape with no sign of contrasting pamor.....but does show a layered pattern.Its seems unusualy thick and heavy to me.I got this advertised as "old dagger or bayonet" :rolleyes: and cost me the price of a carton of cigarets.A prime candidate for some cleaning and re-etching...should be fun :D