MANDAU HANDLE

[carlos]

HELLO !!
I BOUGHT THIS HANDLE IN BALI TWO YEARS AGO AND I´M VERY HAPPY WITH THE PURCHASE. IS VERY DECORATED AND SEEMS 100% ORIGINAL.
THANKS
CARLOS

[Dajak]

Hi Carlos sorry but this is an tourist one .

I was on bali in june/july and all I saw there was fake .

Only one or two store s had some real things with price s starting at $1500.00
till 15,000.00 for a nice mandau
And some handle s starting at $800.00 to expensive.


Regards , Ben

[carlos]

OH!!! :eek: :eek: WHY DO YOU THINK IS A TOURIST HANDLE? I´M SURE IS BONE.
THANKS
CARLOS

[David]

I don't know enough about these to make any informed comment, but it does appear that your hilt has been "smoked" to apply a look of age to it. It still is an interesting carving. :)
What do you you think of this example Ben? What is the criteria that you follow in determining real from tourist?

[Bill M]

Ben,

How about this one?

[Bill M]

OH!!! :eek: :eek: WHY DO YOU THINK IS A TOURIST HANDLE? I´M SURE IS BONE.
THANKS
CARLOS

Carlos,

Ben really knows these pieces. Trust his oipinion and judgement. I do.

Most mandau handles were antler.

Buy Books
Read Books
Search the Forum
Lurk
email people who have pieces you like
Learn.
Buy from established dealers.

PERSEVERE!!

The Journey is a lot of fun!

[carlos]

YES, YES, I ONLY WANT TO KNOW HOW I COULD TRY BETWEEN TOURIST OR REAL WEAPONS, ALWAYS READ THE FORUM AND THANKS BEN FOR HIS OPINION, TO ME BEN IS MY TEACHER!! ;) :rolleyes: THANKS EVERYBODY
CARLOS



Carlos,

Ben really knows these pieces. Trust his oipinion and judgement. I do.

Most mandau handles were antler.

Buy Books
Read Books
Search the Forum
Lurk
email people who have pieces you like
Learn.
Buy from established dealers.

PERSEVERE!!

The Journey is a lot of fun!

[David]

Yes, Ben certainly knows his stuff where Dayak weapons are involved. Hopefully he will be able to supply us with some guidelines for making these determinations. :)
I don't think these weapons are very well understood in the collector world and a quick look at eBay will show you that the market is currently flooded with touristy mandaus. Many of them are quite obvious. What is a bit harder to dtermine is when we see a later example that may or may not be a practical working piece as opposed to a tourist piece. It is my understanding that heads were known to be taken by the Dayak well into the second half of the 20th century.

[Flavio]

Yes, Ben certainly knows his stuff where Dayak weapons are involved. Hopefully he will be able to supply us with some guidelines for making these determinations. :)
I don't think these weapons are very well understood in the collector world and a quick look at eBay will show you that the market is currently flooded with touristy mandaus. Many of them are quite obvious. What is a bit harder to dtermine is when we see a later example that may or may not be a practical working piece as opposed to a tourist piece. It is my understanding that heads were known to be taken by the Dayak well into the second half of the 20th century.



What I don't understand is: a mandau is good only when had taken heads? in other words the mandaus were used only to take heads? And more: if one take as comparative examples only the pieces on books and museums maybe we can lost something: in african weapons, that I know just a little more, one can find pieces that are like the ones on books and also other more crude weapons that aren't beautiful enough to stay on a book but for sure old and "ethnographic" as the others.

[David]

Flavio, i did not intend to suggest that a mandau "is good only when (it) had taken heads". I was merely trying to establish an authentic ethnographic usage well into the latter half of the 20th century. Often when we deal with edged weapons from other cultures their authentic usage has stopped or has been serverely diminished by this point in time.

[Maurice]

Hi,

Maybe these pictures about hilts of the book(s) "quer durch Borneo" helps.

Best wishes,
Maurice

[Dajak]

Hi Al I am not alknown about the dajak stuff I also see things I never see before. there is so much old example s that never have been shown that these Items are also not in Books I went to Denmark and see 40 very rare and old pieces in an private collection that I never see .

But Bill Marsh point to get books and even go to some museums is very good.

see Quer durch Borneo and you see good example s

I even had one mandau an very nice example that was pictured in this book
( that went to an very impressive collector that does a lot off study on his weapons)

And I have also an example from an old time collector and weapon dealer that handle you will never see in any book but pictured in his selling catalogue from around 1910 saying in the that is has very old cloth on it.

So this one must be before 1850


I am trying to collect Murut stuf also now but this is more difficult because not much is written about it.

The handle off yours Bill looks like it have been smoke d but it is not.
they try to imitade the coler by smoking the have some black stuff that they use on the handle s.
It looks like this one is From Saribas North borneo I have one similar Iban.


The handle Carlos is from antler maybe but it is not made the way it should be it is an fantasy made handle maybe you understand now if you ever visit
Germany or the Netherlands you welcome her and I explain it to you


Regards

[Dajak]

I don't think these weapons are very well understood in the collector world and a quick look at eBay will show you that the market is currently flooded with touristy mandaus. Many of them are quite obvious. What is a bit harder to dtermine is when we see a later example that may or may not be a practical working piece as opposed to a tourist piece. It is my understanding that heads were known to be taken by the Dayak well into the second half of the 20th century

There is here in the Netherlands and grand son off an real Dajak headman IBAN who was invited back there in the 80 for an special festival no white people involved and see there people with fresh tattoo s that only where in use when heads was taking so at least in the 80 it must have been taken place. I did see some pics That I can be sure tell you all that this was for real

regards Ben

[Bill M]

The handle off yours Bill looks like it have been smoke but it is not.
they try to imitade the coler by smoking the have some black stuff that they use on the handle s.
It looks like this one is From Saribas North borneo I have one similar Iban.

Regards


Thank you Ben. I shall add your remarks to my catalog description.

here is a link to the book Quer Dutch Borneo. I found it in a free e-book you can download. I love books!!!

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17379/17379-h/17379-h.htm

[carlos]

Thanks Ben for the leason, i´m learning everyday reading the forum, but my english not is good and this is my problem.
THanks again
Carlos



Hi Al I am not alknown about the dajak stuff I also see things I never see before. there is so much old example s that never have been shown that these Items are also not in Books I went to Denmark and see 40 very rare and old pieces in an private collection that I never see .

But Bill Marsh point to get books and even go to some museums is very good.

see Quer durch Borneo and you see good example s

I even had one mandau an very nice example that was pictured in this book
( that went to an very impressive collector that does a lot off study on his weapons)

And I have also an example from an old time collector and weapon dealer that handle you will never see in any book but pictured in his selling catalogue from around 1910 saying in the that is has very old cloth on it.

So this one must be before 1850


I am trying to collect Murut stuf also now but this is more difficult because not much is written about it.

The handle off yours Bill looks like it have been smoke d but it is not.
they try to imitade the coler by smoking the have some black stuff that they use on the handle s.
It looks like this one is From Saribas North borneo I have one similar Iban.


The handle Carlos is from antler maybe but it is not made the way it should be it is an fantasy made handle maybe you understand now if you ever visit
Germany or the Netherlands you welcome her and I explain it to you


Regards

[Dajak]

Hi Carlos
My english also bad so somethimes hard to explain things for me.

And Bill thanks for the link but I have the books I used to have the original ones but difficult to use these old ones I have 2 new ones that easy to handle

Regards , ben

[paolo]

Hi all,
as You pheraphs know, I'm a beginner, so what do You think about this hilt ?
Was it really used, or is a recent item for tourist?
Thank You
Paolo

[Dajak]

Hi Paolo there is no heavely use of wear on the handle and no patina shown
on the wood .

Here are some pics off mandau handles and one wooden hadle from an murut sword so you can see what I mean with sign off wear Paolo

[Maurice]

I am also learning and I like these mandaus now for a year or so.
I try to learn as much as possible by looking on ebay (there you see how mostly tourist parts look)
And I look here on this forum and books and try to get pictures of other collectors and try to see the differents between them.

Although I bought a couple of weeks a mandau on ebay which I really liked.
And you don't see this patina good on the pictures, but in real it has the same patina as another one who I possess. That one I bought of someone who collects these items himself and I fully trust in selling no "touristic parts"
I enclose some pictures.

[Dajak]

Hi send me some pics off the blade scabbard and I will tell you what I think about it and why send it in email to me

pm me and I give you my mail address


Ben

[Emanuel]

Hello,

In 1998 and 2001, there were violent conflicts in Kalimantan between local Dayak tribes and Madurese who had been settled trough the Indonesian government's transmigration programme. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1191865.stm
Many people were decapitated and heads were missing, so it appears that some Dayaks can still resurect the old practice if pushed too far.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Flavio]

Flavio, i did not intend to suggest that a mandau "is good only when (it) had taken heads". I was merely trying to establish an authentic ethnographic usage well into the latter half of the 20th century. Often when we deal with edged weapons from other cultures their authentic usage has stopped or has been serverely diminished by this point in time.

Hello David, mine wasn't a post against what you say but only a more general thought on these weapons :)

[Maurice]

Hi send me some pics off the blade scabbard and I will tell you what I think about it and why send it in email to me

pm me and I give you my mail address


Ben


Hi,
PM sent

[paolo]

Hi Ben,
having the hilt remains of red hairs, I hoped it was really used (also if to me looked quite recent). However thank You for the really clarifying pics.
Paolo

[David]

Hello David, mine wasn't a post against what you say but only a more general thought on these weapons :)
No problem Flavio. I took no offense. I was merely trying to qualify my statement for better understanding.
Ben, i know many others posted hilts, but i would still appreciate your opinion on the one i posted early in the thread. To me it appears to have been carved by an artful hand and has a nice patina. It doesn't apppear to be very old, but my impression have led me to believe it to be pre-WW2. Does the style of carving allow you to determine the region of origin as well. Thanks. :)

[VANDOO]

JUST TO THROW IN ANOTHER POSSIBILITY. THEY ARE DOING SOME EXCELLENT WOOD, BONE ,STONE AND ANTLER CARVEINGS IN BALI SO IT IS POSSIBLE THEY MAY BE MAKEING SOME DAYAK STYLE HANDLES THERE FOR SALE. I AM SURE THERE ARE SOME ARTISTS IN BALI WHO COULD DUPLICATE ANY MANDAU HANDLE OR SCABBARD YOU BROUGHT THEM. FORTUNATELY THEY PROBABLY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO MAKE THE PATINA AND WEAR LOOK AUTHENTIC OR AT LEAST WOULD NOT MAKE THE EXTRA EFFORT TO DO SO. THE BIG PROBLEM IS IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO TELL FOR SURE WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT BASED ON PICTURES ON THE INTERNET ESPECIALLY PATINA AND WEAR.
THERE ARE ALSO ARTISTS OF VARYING SKILL STILL MAKEING THEM IN BORNEO SOME EXCELLENT AND SOME POOR. THERE ARE SWORDS IN SHOPS THAT HAVE BEEN THERE FOR MANY YEARS AS WELL AS THOSE THAT ARRIVED RECENTLY. IF I LIVED IN BORNEO I WOULD PROBABLY TRY AND FIND THE BEST CARVERS AND COLLECT SOME OF THEIR WORK OR COMISSION SOME THAT WAY YOU WOULD HAVE GOOD PROVENANCE, EXCELLENT EXAMPLES AND IT WOULD BE AUTHENTIC DAYAK ART. UNFORTUNATELY YOU CAN'T TELL HOW GOOD A CARVER IS BASED ON WHAT YOU SEE IN A SHOP AS THEY DON'T DO THEIR BEST WORK ON A GROUP OF LIKE SWORDS BEING SENT TO THE SHOPS FOR SALE TO TOURISTS. PERHAPS THE GOVERNMENT OR MUSEUMS COULD HAVE A CARVING COMPETICIAN AND THE ARTISTS COULD SUBMIT THEIR BEST AND RECEIVE RECOGNITION, FREE PROMOTION AND REWARDS. I WOULD CERTIANLY BE INTERESTED IN SEEING SUCH A CONTEST AND WOULD CERTIANLY BUY FROM THE CARVERS I LIKED BEST IF I COULD AFFORD TO.

AS TO HEADHUNTING SWORDS MOSTLY YOU HAVE TO ASSUME THAT SWORDS MADE IN THE DAYS WHEN IT WAS COMMON PRACTICE PROBABLY TOOK HEADS. EVERYTHING ELSE RIGHT UP TO THE RECENT TIME MAY HAVE OR MAY NOT HAVE BUT MOST LIKELY DID NOT. THERE MAY BE A COMMON MACHETE, PARANG OR MANDAU THAT HAS TAKEN HEADS IN THE RECENT OUTBREAK BUT THAT HAS NO APPEAL TO ME. THE REASON COLLECTORS PREFER THE OLD ONES IS THAT THEY WERE MORE IMPORTANT TO THE TRIBES WHEN TAKEING HEADS WAS THE CUSTOM, SO MORE WORK WAS PUT INTO MAKEING THEM. A WARRIOR OF THOSE TIMES WANTED THE BEST HE COULD AFFORD AND ALL THE PROPER CHARMS AND TAILSMEN CARVED INTO OR ATTACHED TO HIS SWORD TO PROTECT HIM AND TO GIVE HIM HEADS.

[josh stout]

I am new to this forum, but there are some easy ways to tell that the first handle shown is a reproduction. As people mentioned, the patina is faked, but the carving is also quite crude. The lines are not deeply incised, and there are no pierced areas. The biggest telltale is that the antler chosen for the carving was too thin, which forced the carver to follow the curve of the antler rather than making something more ergonomic. The second handle posted shows much better carving, with several pierced sections, evidence of wear, and the look of a functional handle. All of the curved carvings look continuous and organic without sharp angles from power tools and shoddy workmanship. I would love to hear about the third handle shown. I have mixed feelings on it.

How long is the first mandau? Most tourist ones are on the short side.
Josh

[Dajak]

The size don t have anything to do with it is tourist or not.


David the one you have is is nice carved can you show also the blade and scabbard the type off handle don t look that old to me that it is before ww2 but I could be wrong .

Ben

[David]

Ben, you may well be right about the age. I don't know very much about these blade so dating them isn't easy for me. There is wear and patina to the handle and the blade's edge shows some use with nicks here and there. I know some folks put a good deal of importance on whether or not these swords have taken heads, but for me that is of little importance. I am mostly interested in them because of the extraordinary style of dayak art, which to my eyes seems very advanced. I posted this once before when i was still posting as Nechesh, but didn't get much feedback:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1904&highlight=Mandau
Any information you might have would be helpful. :)

[Dajak]

An good book is from A.R. Hein Malerei un technische künste bei den Dayaks.

or Indonesische schwertgriffe . also from Hein



Ben

[David]

An good book is from A.R. Hein Malerei un technische künste bei den Dayaks.
or Indonesische schwertgriffe . also from Hein
Ben

Any you would recommend in English? :)

[Dajak]

The pagan tribes off Borneo Hose and mcdougall

The natives of Sarawak and british north Borneo henry ling Roth





Ben

[David]

Thanks Ben. :)

[asomotif]

For the sake of conversation enclosed pictures of a very large hilt

Old or New ? Tourist or not tourist ?

[David]

Well i couldn't tell you the age of this hilt, though it does appear that the point on the antler has been intentionally darkened. For me whether it is old or new is not nearly as important as whether it is authenic and beautiful and it does appear (to my novice eyes) to be a true and well executed expression of a Dayak artform and well worth collecting. Still, it is important for us as collectors to understand exactly what we are collecting. If it is new and presented for sale as an old piece that is a problem. I am sure there are many collectors who are quite willing to add newly crafted pieces to their collections, especially if it means keeping what would otherwise be a dying artform alive. We deal with the same issues in the keris world, perhaps on an even larger scale. There are absolutely exquisite modern works of the keris artform being produced today, though many dealers seem to feel that they must present them as old pieces in order to sell them (or get more money for them). But there is a market for well made new keris and some collectors make it their specialty.

[Maurice]

Still, it is important for us as collectors to understand exactly what we are collecting. If it is new and presented for sale as an old piece that is a problem. I am sure there are many collectors who are quite willing to add newly crafted pieces to their collections, especially if it means keeping what would otherwise be a dying artform alive. .


I do agree with this. There are people who like it for the age and authentic items.
There are also people who like the "style" weather it is old or new.
For me I wood say (although I have newly made indonesian weapons in my collection in generally) I like the old mandaus.
This because they were made by the dayaks while they had very little of no influences of outside (modern) society. ;)

[Dajak]

Hi Willem this is nice carving but not the old style


Ben

[asomotif]

One more for the sake of conversation.

Old or new ? tourist or non tourist ?

Best regards,
Willem

[David]

One more for the sake of conversation.
Old or new ? tourist or non tourist ?


Willem, these terms are meaningless unless defined. Everyone has a different impression as to what is truly old. I'm almost 50yrs. young myself, but some might consider that old. ;) :D
"Tourist" is a term that get's thrown around alot. I usually try to avoid it if something is made in an authentic manner from within the indigenous populous. Many modern day keris are exquisitely made in a tradtional manner, but then sold directly to western collectors. I do not consider these to be "tourist" keris even though they never served an ethnographic function. I do not know if mandau are made in a similar manner for a similar market, but perhaps you can see what i am getting at. :)
This last picture is unfortunately out of focus which only makes assessment even more difficult. To my eyes it appears to be an authentic enthnographic artifact. I am not familar enough with Dayak styles to judge it's age stylisticly, but even in the bad photo it at least appears to have some wear and age. It would be interesting to see the blade it is connected to. :)

[Dajak]

Hi Willem it is new style

Tourist if it is made for not using and decoration


Ben

[asomotif]

Dear David,

Fully agree that these terms need some deifinition.
Although Ben had no problem interpeting these terms ;)
He has even his own terms : new style / old style.

In Dajak art I think that 'old style' is a style where the motifs are strongly anthropomorphic. like leeches and elbows and arm sticking out of the design.

The big hilt I posted has very clear figures, the hornbills are clearly hornbills, and the dragons are clearly dragons. No mistake about that.
That is also what I feel should be considere 'new style'

Anyway , the last hilt I posted is a bit of a mystery to me.
It does not seem very old, but take a look at the blade...

[Dajak]

Hi Willem the blade is an old one it is always difficult from a pic to see the patina but dont forget handle can be broken and replaced but the style is also
new style for me is that after 1940 1950 so yours handle could be 50 60 years old but the blade is older .

scabbard also newer than the blade it looks like north borneo style

Regards Ben

[Maurice]

Hi I just got this mandauhandle.
It is made of some kind of horn.
It was a gift and just handed over to me.
I had never seen them made of horn.
Maybe also a good topic in this thread.

PS. the pictures are not all fully sharp.

[VANDOO]

FROM WHAT I COULD LEARN FROM DEALERS ON MY TRIP TO BORNEO THEY SOMETIMES MAKE TRIPS UP THE RIVERS TO THE DAYAK COMUNITYS AND TRADE OR BUY ARTEFACTS DIRECTLY FROM THE LOCALS. THEY ALSO BUY FROM TRADERS WHO REGULARLY MAKE TRIPS THRU MALYSIAN AND INDONESIAN BORNEO. I AM SURE THERE ARE SOME LOCALLY MADE BY ARTISTS IN THE CITYS AND THERE MAY BE SOME ITEMS IMPORTED FROM OTHER AREAS OF MALAYSIA AND INDONESIA. THERE WERE LOTS OF SHOPS IN KUCHING AND QUITE A VARIETY AND RANGE OF SWORDS, MASKS, SHIELDS AND SPEARS.

FROM WHAT I SAW IN THE SHOPS THERE ARE SEVERAL CLASSIFICATIONS OF SWORDS.
1. THE GOOD OLD ONES OVER 100 YEARS OLD WHICH ARE OFTEN IN THE SHOP OWNERS PRIVATE COLLECTIONS, NOT MANY FOR SALE.
2. THOSE WHICH ARE 100 YEARS OR LESS OLD THAT ARE MADE IN A TRADITIONAL MANNER AND ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY USE AS INTENDED . (TO CHOP BRUSH AND AS A TOOL THESE DAYS)
3. THOSE 100 YEARS OR LESS THAT HAVE TRADITIONAL DESIGNS BUT BLADES TOO POOR TO BE VERY GOOD JUNGLE KNIVES. (SOME OF THESE ARE FOR CEREMONYS OR PRESENTATION ON SPECIAL OCCASIONS OR TO PEOPLE WHO PREFORM A GOOD SERVICE TO THE TRIBE OR INDIVIDUAL.)
4. THOSE 50 YEARS OR LESS THAT HAVE NON TRADITIONAL DESIGNS SOME WITH FUNCTIONAL BLADES AND SOME DECORATIVE ONLY. ( SOME NON TRADITIONAL DESIGNS I HAVE SEEN ARE MERMAIDS OR CHINESE DRAGONS)
5. THOSE MADE WITH VERY POOR BLADES, POOR CARVINGS PAINTED AND HUNG WITH BEADS,HAIR, SHELLS, BONES AND TEETH I THINK THEY MAY COME FROM KALIMANTAN. I HAVE ALSO SEEN SMALL SHIELDS, KERIS AND SPEARS WITH PARMOR BLADES WITH THIS SAME TYPE OF DESIGN. THESE ARE VERY BARBARIC LOOKING BUT I DON'T THINK THEY WERE EVER THE TRADITIONAL STYLE OF ANY DAYAK GROUP, BUT I COULD BE WRONG :confused:
6. WITHIN THESE GROUPS THERE ARE THOSE THAT HAVE SEEN USE AND HAVE BEEN PERSONALIZED BY THE OWNER. SOME OF THESE ARE FANCY AND SOME QUITE PLAIN. SOME HAVE BEEN PAINTED WITH MODERN PAINTS SOME WITH NATURAL DYES OR MORE PRIMATIVE NATURAL PAINTS. SOME HAVE HAD HUNTING TROPHYS ATTACHED OR TAILSMEN ATTACHED.
7. THOSE WITH A OLDER BLADE , NEWER HANDLE AND SCABBARD THOSE WITH NEWER BLADES AND OLDER HANDLES ATTACHED TAILSMEN ECT. DONE AT A SHOP RATHER THAN BY AN INDIVIDUAL.
8 THOSE THAT WERE NOT MADE IN AND HAVE NEVER BEEN TO BORNEO. ( OF THIS I HAVE NO PROOF BUT CONSIDERING TODAYS PRICES AND THE ARTISTIC ABILITY AND BUSINESS SENSE OF SEVERAL OTHER AREAS I CONSIDER IT LIKELY.)

KUCHING (SARAWAK) HAD THE MOST OF THESE TYPES OF ARTEFACTS FOR SALE, THERE WERE SOME SHOPS IN SABAH BUT NOT AS MANY AS IN KUCHING. I DID NOT GET TO KALIMANTAN BUT AM SURE THERE IS PROBABLY A CITY THERE LIKE KUCHING WHICH HAS LOTS OF SHOPS AND ITEMS ALSO.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH BUYING A MORE RECENT ITEM IF IT IS SOLD AS RECENT, THE WORKMANSHIP IS GOOD, TRADITIONAL DESIGNS AND MATERIALS ARE USED AND IT IS MADE BY THE PROPER SOCIETY. FOR INSTANCE I WOULD PREFER TO BUY A CHEYENNE WAR CLUB MADE BY A CHEYENNE NOT BY AN IRISHMAN BECAUSE NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT LOOKED LIKE A CHEYENNE CLUB I WOULD KNOW THE ONE MADE BY THE IRISHMAN HAD TO BE A SHILLELAGH :D

[ariel]

What about this one? My only Mandau...

[asomotif]

Hello Ariel,

Very nice old mandau. Lovely handle with lots of patina.
Would like to bump into that quality mandaus any day.

[Maurice]

Very nice old mandau. Lovely handle with lots of patina.
Would like to bump into that quality mandaus any day.

I do agree with you completely Willem.

[paolo]

I'm proud of my mandau !!!
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=361
Paolo

[ariel]

Hey, guys, if you like my mandau so much, you know who to contact if you have an unwanted Caucasian, Turkish, Arabian or Central Asian sword :D :D