Katipunan

[Bill M]

Trying to start a Katipunan thread and not wanting to hyjack VVV's thread about his marvelous kris. I found an old thread I started about three years ago on a dagger I had just gotten.

Anyone care to post ideas on the Katipunan? Not just this piece, but in general?

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002102.html

[Battara]

Well, to repeat myself over and over again ( :p ) here is what I said in another post:

"On the Katipunan question, the sun with a face is a definite Katipunan emblem and was in fact incorporated later into the Malolos flag when the government as set up around latge 1899. It is a form of Malay sun and the rays in this case represent the 8 original provinces that revolted this last time against the Spanish. Later some of the Visayas revolted, like Bohol island, Negros, etc."

And then about yours specifically:

"Bill - yours is the best example I have ever seen (grumble,grumble,envy,envy :p). I would add that it may have belonged to a general."

I love the silver mounts.

[kino]

Not an edged weapon but a Katipunan piece non the less.
Flag/standard pole finial. Dimensions H-16", W-9.5". Heavy, silver. It has the similar eight rayed sun with a face.

[Battara]

Kino,

thats a great piece! :eek: Would love to know where you found it! Thanks for sharing it. :D

[Bill M]

I think that Battara has a point. Perhaps this dagger did belong to a general, maybe General Leandro Fullon?

http://www.geocities.com/leandro_fullon/index.html

I like his quote, "Soldiers: be always prudent, respectful and loving to the country in all your acts, and be an example of morality, subordination, discipline and obedience to your superiors, and avoid everything which may defame your conduct, fame and good military reputation, for if you do so you will be blessed and applauded by cultured people, the present and future generations.
--Leandro Fullon y Locsin, Letter to Field and Line Officers, Non-commissioned
Officers and Soldiers, 2 June 1900 [original in Spanish L.S. P.I.R. 977.3]

Can anybbody tell me what the "Pral" means?

And BTW this dagger is not for sale. I have a recipient in mind to whom it will be bequeathed.

[Dimasalang]

Sorry to bring this post up from the dead, but I think I can add some useful info to this thread for possible future reference.

The first portion of the engraving I would definitely say looks to say "Jral".
The Katipunan and the 1st Republic of the Philippines used Spanish titles. "General" in Spanish can be spelled "Heneral" or "Jeneral". The Abbreviation for Jeneral in Spanish is "Jral". It can also be Hral or Gral, but that looks like a "J" engraving to me. ;)
"G", "H", and "J" are typically pronounced the same way in Spanish...so you can use them interchangeably.

[Marc]

Sorry to bring this post up from the dead, but I think I can add some useful info to this thread for possible future reference.

The first portion of the engraving I would definitely say looks to say "Jral".
The Katipunan and the 1st Republic of the Philippines used Spanish titles. "General" in Spanish can be spelled "Heneral" or "Jeneral". The Abbreviation for Jeneral in Spanish is "Jral". It can also be Hral or Gral, but that looks like a "J" engraving to me. ;)
"G", "H", and "J" are typically pronounced the same way in Spanish...so you can use them interchangeably.No, you can't. It's called proper spelling. :)
Now, the "Spanish" spoken in the Philippines at the time was in fact a local version, which could include such variation of spelling, but it would only reinforce the indigenous character of the piece.
I just wanted to clarify the possibilities for the flexibility, or lack thereof, of the spelling of the Spanish language in a particular time framework.
Said this, the first letter COULD also be a capital "G", and the " ~" symbol above the word usally indicates some kind of contraction. So, "General" is a very very good candidate.

[Bill M]

The provenance on this dagger goes back to the late 1800s, so it could be a personal item and not a memorial piece.

Thanks for the new info!

[David]

No, you can't. It's called proper spelling. :)
Now, the "Spanish" spoken in the Philippines at the time was in fact a local version, which could include such variation of spelling, but it would only reinforce the indigenous character of the piece.
I just wanted to clarify the possibilities for the flexibility, or lack thereof, of the spelling of the Spanish language in a particular time framework.
Said this, the first letter COULD also be a capital "G", and the " ~" symbol above the word usally indicates some kind of contraction. So, "General" is a very very good candidate.

I tend to agree that the first letter is probably "G". See the "G" in the logo of my favorite '70s prog rock band, Genesis. :)

[Bill M]

I tend to agree that the first letter is probably "G". See the "G" in the logo of my favorite '70s prog rock band, Genesis. :)


Well! Prog Rock is right again!
:D :D :D :D :D

[Dimasalang]

No, you can't. It's called proper spelling. :)
Now, the "Spanish" spoken in the Philippines at the time was in fact a local version, which could include such variation of spelling, but it would only reinforce the indigenous character of the piece.
I just wanted to clarify the possibilities for the flexibility, or lack thereof, of the spelling of the Spanish language in a particular time framework.
Said this, the first letter COULD also be a capital "G", and the " ~" symbol above the word usally indicates some kind of contraction. So, "General" is a very very good candidate.


Ok ok I guess it could be a "G". :D But even today we(I live next to the border of Mexico) use the letter "J" with the "H" sound for Spanish(ie La Jolla, Jamacha, Tijuana, Jose, Jorge, etc...). The word "General" in Spanish is spelled the same as in English but in Spanish it is pronounced with a "H" sound as well.


Marc, I study a lot of Philippine History, particular this era...I believe you have as well. I am not sure if you know about the PRR(Philippine Revolutionary Records) which are the collection of actual documents, reports, and transcripts captured by the Americans during the Phil-Am War. These were turned over to the Philippines and are now housed in the National Library of the Philippines. Many of these documents show, Filipino Generals have signed their name, El Gral...and not El Gen. Using "Gen." for "General" is a English abbreviation...which was not in existence in the Philippines language or culture prior to American intervention. All documents were written 75% of the time in Spanish, the other 25% were written in Tagalog.

Part of a document signed by Gen Licerio Gerónimo reads:

(Palabra ilegible) en la Jefatura Militar de S. Mateo a 12 de abril de 1899

El Gral. Primer Jefe
(Fdo.) L. Gerónimo

(Ilegible) con nombramiento definitivo y enviado al Gral. D. L. Grónimo

So I kind of stand by the fact that "Jral" or "Gral" does indeed stand for General on that particular dagger. Leandro Fullon was a well recognized General during that time. Photos of all the Generals of Aguinaldo show most of them had personalized "daggers".

[David]

Hey Bill, you might have noticed that all the original pics are gone from the original thread. This is why i like to encourage everyone to post directly to this forum instead of using things like photobucket or the like.
Maybe you could post some new photos of it here for future reference, since i am hopeful that it will be a very long time before you actually bequeath it to me. ;) :D

[Marc]

I do, in fact, agree. I probably didn't explain myself adequately :)

Yes, I also think that the first word in the plate is Gral., which, as you very well said, is not only the Spanish abbreviation for "General", but is also pronounced with the "h" English sound when at the beginning of a word. So, I repeat, in that we agree. I only wanted to clarify that in "canonic" Spanish, even in that time (if we keep the hypothesis of late 19th c.), to use "Jral." would have been considered an spelling mistake... or maybe a local variation :)

Best,

Marc

[carlos]

I have 3 links with some information about flags of the Katipunan.
Regards
carlos

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ph-histo.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Philippine_Revolution

http://www.philippinecountry.com/philippineflag.html