The Flying Keris

[A. G. Maisey]

Recently there have been several threads that touched on the mystical/magical qualities of the keris.

When I use the term "mystical/magical" I am not referring to the qualities of a keris associated with the talismanic beliefs surrounding various pamor patterns and blade forms (dapur), nor am I referring to the belief system that positions a pusaka keris as the cosmological focus joining the present owner to previous owners and linking these through the keris to all living members of the kin group.

Rather, I am referring to qualities, sometimes attributed to a keris, which place it firmly in the realm of the paranormal:- keris which cause death; keris which cause illness; keris which leave their scabbards and fight for their owners; keris which escape from locked rooms, go on a killing spree and then return to their locked cabinets; keris which cause their owners to kill their wives and neighbours ( irrespective of the wife being unfaithful and taking the neighbour as a lover), and of course flying keris.

My opinions on this type of keris have been formed over a very long period, and the experiences and knowledge that have caused me to form my opinions are the experience and knowledge I have gained as somebody who has very close contact with a number of keris dealers and craftsmen in Central Jawa and Bali. Additionally, I have close family contact with an acknowledged and respected paranormal, and casual friendly relations with a number of other paranormals living in Central Jawa.

I do not feel it is my place to denigrate the beliefs of those people who hold strong beliefs in respect of the powers of keris such as I have mentioned above. As has previously been noted in this discussion group, we may all hold whatever beliefs we will.

However, I do feel that the following story, which is only one of many similar stories that I know, could possibly explain why it is that I hold my present opinions.

For the enhancement of your knowledge I give you the story of a flying keris:-


This is a story about an extremely powerful keris that could fly, escape from and re-enter locked rooms and steel safes, and always return to its righful owner.

This is a true story, and I know personally one of the people concerned in this story.

Going back to about 1985 or 1986 there was a keris salesman who lived in Solo, and who had a particularly ugly keris that he had tried for a long time to sell, but could not find anybody who would buy it from him. He gave a lot of thought to this problem of having dead money on his hands in the form of an unsaleable keris, and he finally hit upon a plan that he was certain would allow him to free himself of this keris.

He had a brother who lived in Surabaya, and he approached him and asked for his assistance, which the brother readily agreed to give.

The keris salesman then approached a well known collector in Solo and told him that he knew of an extraordinary keris that was available for sale. This keris belonged to a man who lived in Surabaya, and who was desperate for money because he had to pay for an operation for his wife. The keris was a family keris that had been given to the seller's ancestor by Sunan Ampel, and it possessed the power of flight. Not only could this keris fly faster than the wind, but it could escape from any restraint, including locked doors and steel safes, and it would always return to its righful owner. The price being asked was very high, but it was a unique and powerful keris. Was he interested in meeting the owner?

The Collector was more than interested in meeting the owner! He was burning with desire to have the opportunity to see, and perhaps obtain this fabulously powerful keris.

The Collector agreed that on the coming Sunday morning he would come to the Keris Salesman's house, where he would meet the Man from Surabaya who wanted to sell this keris.

Come Sunday morning, the Collector duly rolled up in his Mercedes Benz, the Man from Surabaya was already there, they were introduced, shared drinks and conversation, and finally the Man from Surabaya allowed the Collector to see and handle the wonderful keris.

Of course, the Collector was no fool. He'd been around the traps two or three times and he was well aware that not everybody is entirely honest when it comes to selling anything, let alone keris. He did not build his business empire by being fooled and lied to by people, so he did the natural and expected thing:- he asked for proof of the fabulous abilities of this keris to fly faster than the wind, escape from locked rooms, and return to its rightful owner.

The Keris Salesman proposed a test of the fabled abilities of this keris; during conversation, he himself had expressed doubts that any keris could escape from a steel safe, even if it might be able to fly. He proposed that he lock the keris in his safe, and that all three of them---the Man from Surabaya, the Collector, and himself drive to Surabaya and see if the keris did in fact return to its rightful owner. The Man from Surabaya had no hesitation in agreeing to this test, and stated that he was positive that his keris would be there in its normal place when the three of them arrived. The Collector agreed to the test and said that if the keris was there when they arrived in Surabaya, he would be very interested in negotiating an agreement to make it his.

OK. Everything was agreed and the three of them got into the Collector's Mercedes and set off for Surabaya.

Its about a 4 hour run from Solo down to Surabaya, and along the way they stopped a couple of times to have refreshment, and relieve themselves. Eventually they arrived in Surabaya, pulled up at the Man from Surabaya's house, unlocked the front door, unlocked the door of the room where the keris was normally kept, unlocked the cupboard where the keris normally rested, and----there it was!

The same keris that had been left locked in a steel safe, in a locked room, in a locked house in Solo had escaped from the house and the safe, flown from Solo to Surabaya, arrived before the three men, and found its own place in the house of its rightful owner.

This was indeed a powerful keris!

The Collector immediately wrote a cheque for the bride price.

He then gave the Keris Salesman the expected 10% of the bride price, as his commission.

The Man from Surabaya cashed the cheque, kept 10% as his commission, and paid the balance to his brother, the Keris Salesman

The Collector was so pleased with having obtained such a wonderfully powerful keris that he kept it forever in a locked box in his safe, and never even allowed another person to see it. One does not take any risks at all with something as powerful and as valuable as a keris like that!

This is a true story.

And here is the other side of it.

When the three men left for Surabaya in the Mercedes, the Keris Salesman's son took the keris from his father's safe, using the spare key. He hopped on his motorbike and lit out for Surabaya. Rode straight through without a stop. Twenty year old kids don't suffer from prostate problems.
He opened up his uncle's house with the keys that had been given to him, placed the keris where he had been told to , locked everything up again, and rode back to Solo.

Yes indeed, a wonderfully powerful keris.

It managed to extract an amount of money equivalent to the price of decent house, from a very clever businessman.

[Alam Shah]

I do listen to stories... but believing in it is another. While researching, one can hear many kinds of stories. Stories like these are rampant. There's even a book "Esoteri Keris", (in Bahasa Indonesia), which forewarned about these trickery.

To me, even if it's a "powerful keris", it's no point having it without knowledge of its use. It's like having a machine gun, but don't know how to load the cartridge and fire the weapon. It's meaningless.:shrug:

To each their own. Thanks for the story.

[rasdan]

IMHO, the keris itself dont have any power. Its just an object. The problem is caused by these entities and human being themselves. As a Muslim, i will always believe in the "cant be seen" stuff. But one thing to remember, human are superior than them and in now way they can harm you without god's willing. We report directly to God, there is no need for a third party participation. Humans can do a lot more damage.

[A. G. Maisey]

As somebody of Celtic bloodlines on both sides of my family, and three generations removed from pure Irish peasantry, I also do have a strong belief in the unseen. I grew up believing that bunches of garlic over the doors and windows kept out evil spirits. Spilt salt? An invitation to the devil.

However, how can any rational man believe that something made by man can possess a power above the power of God?

Even the existence of spirits, which would be difficult to deny, seems to be mostly, or perhaps always, associated with human emotion.

Then there is the factor of the communal sub-conscious.

Yes, the unseen is there, but can it harm you? Only if you believe it can.

Now, as for flying keris, as Shahrial says,there are many of these stories, but the cautionary thing is this:- stories like this can be laughed at in retrospect, however, when you are involved in them first hand, and the sandiwara is skilfully presented, it is a rare person who will not be taken in. The businessman in my story was and still is a very successful man. Now probably in his 70's, Chinese, and very hardnosed.Definitely nobody's fool. But he got sucked in and carried along just the same.

One of the things that I find particularly interesting are the ways in which some purveyors of keris have adapted their styles to the electronic medium. It is one thing take somebody for a ride when you are face to face. It is something else entirely to be able to do it over the net. Lew's example in another thread was a fairly unpolished presentation, but some of the more refined people can create magic ( of a different kind).

[kronckew]

the keris after all was said DID return to it's 'rightfull' owner, didn't it. the magic worked. it needed to use a kid on a motorcycle tho. ;)

[David]

IMHO, the keris itself dont have any power. Its just an object. The problem is caused by these entities and human being themselves. As a Muslim, i will always believe in the "cant be seen" stuff. But one thing to remember, human are superior than them and in now way they can harm you without god's willing. We report directly to God, there is no need for a third party participation. Humans can do a lot more damage.

Well put Rasdan. I am not a Muslim, but this world view crosses both cultural and religious lines. I too have long been a believer in the the "unseen" worlds and have had my own personal experiences which have proved to me that such worlds and entities exist. But i also believe that true power resides within us as it is channeled through us from a higher source.
I have also had the pleasure of having a number of close friends who are fantastic stage magicians. Any one of them could easily make a keris appear to fly, disappear from one place and appear in another, draw water from it's blade or any one of the many feats often attributed in stories to "powerful" keris and you or i in audience to these events would never catch the tricks they use to produce these effects. The difference is that these magicians will openly tell you that they are using a trick (though they will never show you how they do it ;) ). This is not to say that i do not believe that the keris is truly a deeply spiritual and magickal tool. But IMO parlor tricks is not the essence of the magick held within the keris.
We humans are also constantly looking for excuses for our behavior or reasons for why things happen to us. Some one in a previous thread mentioned that they know of a man whose keris forced him to give it his wife (though i'm not sure exactly how that works :confused: ). This is sort of a form of the "the devil made me do it" syndrome. It is so much easier for us to simply blame our actions or troubles on a cursed keris than to take responsibility and own up.

[rasdan]

Yeah David, cant blame somebody else on something you yourself did. But when you had sold your soul to the devil, well.. things aint going to be easy to explain.. ;)

[A. G. Maisey]

The whole "magic keris" business falls within the ambit of beliefs surrounding sorcery, witchcraft and magic in general. As an object it need be no more "magical" than any other object.

The magical object in South East Asian societies gains its power from cultural and social structure and beliefs. Where this "magic" spills over into European cultures it is because the South East Asian beliefs have influenced the European beliefs.

An excellent book which may give a little insight into these matters as they are placed in SE Asian societies is :- "Understanding Witchcraft and Sorcery in Southeast Asia"---Watson and Ellen, Uni Hawaii Press, 1993.

[lelang69]

magic, genie, angel, god, flying keris, walking keris whatelse belive it or not or dummy or fool

loving god (magical power) and his propet is amazing faith ( I belive in god very much), is it dummy or fool?

according to me please respect the defference belive or faith. someone belive that keris can fly (respect it). malay, javanese and other southeast asia belive keris has magical power (respect it please). once US seller in Ebay said his keris has genie (please respect it). buy it if you belive, don't buy it if you don't. gitu saja kok repot ( please take it easy).

one day one said don't buy keris because of the magic or story (don't belive what he said as long as he is a javanese malay or other southeast asian) but you must respect it.

one day US seller on Ebay said that his keris has genie and other said " guinea or pig or hog" please don't condamed it but respect it

but one who said org , pig or guinea is hog itself. Respect it.

but the important is please respect each other so that keris can't killed human being but keris is loved by humanbeing. belive it.....

The man belive god as their savior and respect the keris as the masterpiece is not the pig or guinea (One said) but the wise man who belive there is other power exept our fool brain, please respect and belive it.









:)

[David]

Lelang, your call for respect should be well heeded, however i do not see any lack of respect voiced in this thread. There are certainly many mysteries in the world and one would be foolish to scoff outright at the possibilities. I personal try to keep an open mind while still maintaining a touch of skepticim lest i become someone elses fool. Unfortunately the realm of magick and mysticism has become a tool for the unscrupulous and (in some cases) criminal. For me it is not a matter of whether or not the keris can hold a mystical or magickal current. The question for me is does THIS keris that someone is trying to sell to me hold any such energy or am i just being treated to a nonsense story to grab my interest and convince me that i should buy the keris. Unfortunately most often i fear this is the case when we read about "powerful" keris being sold at auction. Faith is a beautiful thing and i truly respect it and the rights of others to believe whatever they see fit. Blind faith, however, leads to gulibility, and many people have been taken in this way over the years. The story that Alan Maisey has revealled here is a true one. He knows the inside story on this particular deal and the fact remains that this buyer was fooled. If one wants to believe something someone will always find a way to prove it to them, even if it isn't so, if there is money to be made. Those who choose not to question are easily fooled. An open mind must flow both ways. This story does not teach us that we should not believe that a keris can fly, just that keris did not. :)

[Montino Bourbon]

In my musical teachings I explain that the voice is so powerful that I can even move things with my voice. People of course think that I am going to make something move in front of them without anyone touching it.

Later I ask someone to get me a glass of water, and when I have it in my hand I explain the obvious; that I used my voice to move something.

So yes, the keris did 'fly home'.

It's like the value of art; a piece of canvas with oil paint on it is worth millions because somebody says that it is.

Is it worth it to you? that's the question. And if the value includes things that only you can see, that's the value to you.

[David]

Well put Montino. Haven't seen you around much lately. Nice to hear from you again. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

The "Flying Keris" is only one of many stories that I know about the realities of "magic".

However, I also know of really inexplicable things, such as the ability of a member of my family to know of things happening in distant places before being told. For instance, the death of somebody a long way away, and how it happened.

There are things that cannot be explained logically, and there are also things that can be made to appear to be inexplicable.

As for the voice, well, as today's calendar page tells me:- "The power of life and death lay within the voice."

[josh stout]

The relationship between real power and tricks is more blurred in Indonesia than it is in America where we acknowledge one or the other. I watched a pendekar show a crowd of tourists how a magical stone could protect him from being cut. He showed us his arm shaking as the power entered him, then he chopped his arm with a golok. As he chopped, he kicked the sofa he was sitting on so it made a loud thump. The golok did not cut him, but left a line where it had hit. We would dismiss this as a trick. The shaking arm was showmanship, and kicking the sofa hid the fact that the chop was without power. However, I watched carefully, and while there was a trick, what he showed was quite real. It was a good solid strike to his arm. He new he was putting on a show, but he also believed in his own power. That power was not superhuman, but still took some skill. Later when the tourists left, he used the stone magic to fill his students with their movements. While this could be seen as more trickery, the effect on the students was real. Their movements were good, and unselfconscious bordering on trancelike. Where is the trick? Is it the show that builds the belief, the true belief that filled his students, or the real ability that the students demonstrated? Like many Americans, I tend to think that if I spot a trick, then the whole activity is suspect. In Indonesia, the trick is often beside the point, and expected. People with magical power often combine slight of hand, showmanship, carefully honed skills in reading body language, hypnotism, and faith healing using the placebo effect to accomplish amazing things. We should not forget that what appears to be trickery can involve great skill, and have real effects.
Josh

[Kiai Carita]

I watched a pendekar show a crowd of tourists how a magical stone could protect him from being cut. He showed us his arm shaking as the power entered him, then he chopped his arm with a golok. Josh

Hello Josh. I presume that you must be the Josh from PGB ... so "Salam Perguruan!" _()_ (this is meant to be hands soja before chest). ... Gentlemen, I think we have a White Crane pendekar here.

In Indonesia you often come across what appears to be magic. I have experienced it to especially with keris and othe tosan aji. First I found a keris in my grand mother's empty house - had been empty for years. I was practising some movement meditation and my hand felt like it was pulled very hard to the top of a cupboard and there was a keris, completely clean lying on a thick bed of dust. A few minutes after I picked it up, a neighbour came with a torch looking for what he saw as a bright light falling on to the roof. I wear this keris when I play dalang in London and always people fall in love with me. It is just a simple tilam upih in a gayaman timoho pelet wrangka, nothing special, the ganja has come loose and the pamor is only wos wutah but it seems to have a strong magic in it, stronger than an other keris I inherited which looks and is physically a much better keris. The better one never brings me the same type of luck when I wear it.

An other time, I lost a tombak from my room. I loved this tombak very much because my grand mother gave it to me as a child and used to tell me to use it to move rain clouds when she was drying rice. I lost it about 10 years ago... then last year my wife smelled a very sweet smell in the room and her hand felt as if was being pulled, and there, on top of our wardrobe was the tombak. Only the blade, the shaft was lost, the blade was a little uncared for but I recognized it as mine immediately.

Yesterday I was riding my motorbike to look at all the deforestation around Ngawi (where I live - massive deforestation the year Suharto stepped aside) and saw some interseting stone sculptures in a garden at the edge of a remote village. A strange place to see such expressive carvings I thought so I stopped and asked who made them. The man in the verandah said they were his. Then I noticed some older stones which looked like bonangs and kenongs from a gamelan set, and also some small linggas. I asked him whose they were and he said that they were ancient ones he found in his kebun. I asked if I could buy them of him and he said he did not dare sell. Why? I asked... he said that several of them have returned by themselves to the place he found them... and I believe him.

Maybe I am just a fool but in the silat world there are many things that seem to be magic. My trainer could make people not find his house - walk right past it. An other teacher could speak as if he was whispering in your heart. When ever one trainer moved the long movement of Crane Moves in Nine Shadows someone would fall in to trance. Why? I don't know. One thing I think is sure is that if someone has a magic keris they are not going to ever sell it.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

[David]

Josh, you are revealling some of the key secrets to true magick. Magick works on many levels and from many different directions sometimes. We should never underestimate the power of the brain either. When someone is healed by a plecebo for instance, those who chose not to acknowledge magick will say it's only in their heads. But the man has been healed! That power of the mind to heal is as much magick as anything else. And as Josh has stated, a certain amount of showmanship gets thrown into the mix with any good act of magick to elevate the level of consciousness to the point that allows the magick to take hold. I find it funny when folks denounce magick as being only in your head as if that somehow invalidates it or makes it unreal. We are the sum of our experiences and these experience help determine out realities. Even so, this doesn't mean that trickery and showmanship are not often used to bilk unsuspecting people out of large sums of money as was the case in Mr. Maisey's story of the flying keris. Again i encourage all to keep an open mind, but also a modicum of skepticism in your tool kit when attempting to determine an "authentic" magickal or mystical experience.
One thing I think is sure is that if someone has a magic keris they are not going to ever sell it.
Bram, it is nice to hear from you again. I have had similar experiences with "magickal" objects, but not, as yet, with any of my keris. Your statement here is of the utmost importance to us in the collecting community when trying to understand keris and the magickal experience. The sad truth is that just about any time you are told a story about the magickal powers of a keris that someone is trying to sell you it will most likely be a lie. This does not negate that there is a true magickal "reality" to keris. It is just that these stories are most often used by unscupulous dealers to get your money. Certainly it is true of internet sales like on eBay, where the buyer never has the opportunity to come in contact with the keris to sense if there is any active energies working there. So the old axiom still holds guys. Buy the keris, not the story. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Let's pass on the question of buying and selling magic, just for the moment.

Let us consider this:-

in the Javanese world view, how much of the physical things of the world are reality, and how much of an idea is reality?

if the physical and the idea or belief can come together in the micro cosmos of man, is not the reality of the idea as one with the reality of existence of the physical object?

thus, if an idea is real for a person, or for a group of people, is not the value of that idea equivalent to the value of actuality?

If we look at Javanese society, and the way in which it is organised , we can find multitudes of examples that could be used to illustrate the proposition I am putting forward here. The keris and the position it occupies within Javanese society complies with the parameters set by the society for the relationship between all physical things and all non physical things. It is not a special case. It falls within the general framework of the way in which Javanese people tend to see the world.

The anthropologist, Niels Mulder, who carried out considerable research in Jawa, has written fairly extensively on this uniquely Javanese way of relating to the world.

Of course, there is a downside to this way of acting and reacting, and it comes when people with these attitudes are forced to act and react with the world outside their own. The Asian monetary crisis hit in 1997. Ten years later, Indonesia is still suffering the effects of this.

Why?

[josh stout]

Thank you Bram for the nice introduction._()_ :)

Relating to the idea of a keris working as a connection between the inner and outer worlds-

"...thus, if an idea is real for a person, or for a group of people, is not the value of that idea equivalent to the value of actuality?

If we look at Javanese society, and the way in which it is organized, we can find multitudes of examples that could be used to illustrate the proposition I am putting forward here. The keris and the position it occupies within Javanese society comply with the parameters set by the society for the relationship between all physical things and all non-physical things. It is not a special case. It falls within the general framework of the way in which Javanese people tend to see the world..."

This is very well put, and also reveals one of the problems with intangibles. Our mind builds bridges between the inner and outer worlds. These bridges come in the form of movements or physical things like the keris that when done in the right way, form bridges into the inner realm of others. We often think that if something has its origin in mental states or beliefs, then it its validity rests purely in the mind and is thus open to any interpretation. Some people believe things as fast as they can make them up. However, what the keris teaches us is that a true bridge is not casually constructed by unskilled labor. There is physical skill that forms the substance for the beliefs. This is true for art in general, but when the art carries the spiritual and metaphysical as part of its creation the skill and physical techniques require that much more dedication. In addition, it takes a certain amount of skill to simply be able to recognize the level of mastery that it takes to produce a keris or other thing with inner power. This is why as collectors become more knowledgeable they often seek out the older keris. The old and the new may look similar, but often they are not the same. Some people think only the old keris have power. I don't know about that, but it would be typical of modern things to be made without the level of skill necessary. Still as a physical skill, no matter how difficult, it is still possible that some may still have it. Modern life is just not conducive to the dedication necessary to reach that level.
Josh

[Pusaka]

Arguably the most important part of a keris is the blade. A family that have falling on hard times may chose to sell the outer “clothing” of a valuable family keris but will often not sell the blade. The blade is described and categorized according to its physical/artistic construction along with its age but there is another category which is to many more important, a keris blade is said to be either alive or dead.
A keris which is alive has an energy field around the blade which may be experienced by different people in various ways. Some can actually see a soft coloured light around the blade others feel a sensation of lightness, warmth or tingling when they touch the blade. A dead blade is exactly as the term “dead” suggests. It is devoid of any energy field and although it may be a beautifully constructed keris at the end of the day it is only a piece of steel.
A blade which is alive (ampuh) can be categorized variously depending on the nature of the energy which permeates the blade. Firstly the blade can be termed good or bad, a better word would perhaps be evil.
The blade may have a type of consciousness or not.
A common bar magnet which is surrounded by a magnetic field is nothing more then a piece of steel with an energy field around it however we would not say it was alive yet it clearly has properties which a common piece of steel has not. Similarly it is possible to magnetize a keris blade if you have the knowledge to do so. The result is a piece of steel with an energy flowing through the blade. It may be used as a conduit to heal or harm but it has no consciousness so to speak.
A blade which possesses consciousness can be categorized into two types, either the owner has made the blade an extension of his body and thus the blade is mentally linked to the owner or the blade has been put in the service of a jinn, good or bad by binding it to the blade through the use of magical rites.

[Rick]

Interesting Pusaka; thanks for the input. :)

Putting the esoteric aside for a moment ..

One may "magnetize" a screwdriver by repeatedly stroking the blade in one direction only with a strong magnet; I suspect that this method would work on other ferrous objects. I have also run across the occasional piece of restaurant tableware that was magnetized. :)

Magnet therapy can be useful in alternative medicine.

[Pusaka]

Hi Rick,


True, you can magnetize any object which is constructed from a suitable material and of a suitable geometry. I have noticed that steel sometimes becomes magnetic just from machining it e.g. drilling a hole. I often notice how drill bits become slightly magnetic and yet the material they machined was not. I also believe that magnetism can be produced in a blade just by the way in which you work the steel.
Having said that when I referred to a keris blade being magnetized I actually did not mean common magnetism but a different type of magnetism, perhaps I should have just used the word energized.

[David]

It is quite simple to activate the magnetic field of a keris. Just hold the tip to a powerful magnet for a few moments. If you then run a compass along it's length you will find that it now have a magnetic "north" and "south" pole. I do with with all my keris as part of a cleansing and re-alignment of energies.
Pusaka, prehaps i've got it backwards. You mention keris blades that are put in the service of a jinn. I had always understood that the jinn are put into the keris to be in the service of the owner of the keris. You sem to imply that the jinn controls the keris.
Likewise i still have trouble wrapping my mind around this concept of the "evil" keris. Why would an empu create a keris that is "evil" and would do it's owner harm? What would be the purpose? :confused:

[Rick]

Magnetic .

[Pusaka]

Hi David,


My understanding is that a jinn is not put into a blade i.e. it is not trapped inside of the blade but it has been magnetically linked to the blade through the knowledge of the jinns name. It is the jinn that controls the keris but the jinn may be in the service of the owner.

A bad person will put his wishes into a blade and since the owner is, so the blade will be. The purpose would be to do evil as that is what that owner wishes, such people do exist.

[David]

Thanks for your response Pusaka.
Yes, it would be the practioners knowledge of the jinn (or any spirit) that would give one power over it, but what do you mean exactly when you say that the jinn controls the keris? In what way? Apart from the owners will?
Certainly there are and have been "evil" people, and they may have used their keris in "evil" ways, both physically and magickally, but i am still not convinced that there are intrinsicly "evil" keris that can or will commit "evil" acts outside of the control of their "evil" masters. This isn't to say that residual energies don't remain in objects weilded by powerful people, but in my paradigm these energies are controllable. :)
Rick, could you come over...i lost some safty pins behind the seat cushions on my couch... ;) :D

[Pusaka]

This type of conscious keris is extremely rare, it is the stuff of the keris story’s of Blades that have the ability to move. They move because it is the jinn that moves the blade, the blade literally is alive. This is what I mean when I said the jinn controls the keris, to protect or warn the owner of danger. Most keris which are considered to be alive don’t have jinn but just have an energy field much like a magnet, it does not think or act except through the owners mind.

Jinn can be good or bad just like any spirit, some tend toward goodness whilst others do not. If you were to bind an evil jinn to a keris blade the resultant blade would be bad. The jinn can also whisper to the owners subconscious mind and in that way gain control over a weak minded person, influence dreams etc

If the blade does not have a jinn but was owned by an evil person who used it for doing such things the blade is filthy even if you physically clean it. Its energies being negative will influence those who come into contact with it in a negative way, it may trigger bad thoughts etc.

[David]

Pusaka, have you ever had personal experience with a keris with a jinn or for that matter a keris that had an evil owner that gave you a bad feeling?

[Pusaka]

A keris which has a jinn, I believe that such keris do exist but as said are extremely rare. I don’t have one and if I did I would not keep it, not something I would particularly want.
As for keris from which I got a bad vibe yes I have experienced that.

[David]

I would be interested in hearing about that experience Pusaka, but i understand if you would rather not share it.

[pakana]

Hello to all,

I would like to express my opinion about the mistical side of keris, since my knowledge about the technical side is rather limited, and there are many people in this forum with vast knowledge about the technical side.

First of all, it is not so rare to find a keris with spirit inside.Most of you here in this forum surely possess such a keris,but you don't know it.If a keris is "possesed" by such a spirit, and how strong that spirit is, it has to do with the quality of a keris.I mean that if an empu created a keris for an average farmer, or a king,you surely understand the difference of the aproach.So if you have a keris that is a very good quality,there are many possibilities to have a "resident" inside.

Also very important is for an owner to treat his keris with respect and love,and to feed it regurarly.Don't forget that,like us human,they also have the need for food and good feelings.If you treat your keris with desrespect,and you don't feed it at all,the power will slowly vanished

Also it is rather rare to harm a keris his owner.We humans are above keris,because we have also an actual body,not just spirit as the keris have.It is very important.And don't confuse the metal around the spirit with the "body".In the scale of existance,humans are above spirits such as keris,which are "built" by humans.Just bare in mind that the majority of keris spirits are rather simple in their way of "acting" and "thinking".They had the original order by their empu to protect someone,for example,so they stick to that original order.It's just like the software of your computer.

I don't know if these helped anyone.If someone has an interesting story or information to share,he is more than welcome.

George

[NotoriousCal]

magic, genie, angel, god, flying keris, walking keris whatelse belive it or not or dummy or fool

loving god (magical power) and his propet is amazing faith ( I belive in god very much), is it dummy or fool?

according to me please respect the defference belive or faith. someone belive that keris can fly (respect it). malay, javanese and other southeast asia belive keris has magical power (respect it please). once US seller in Ebay said his keris has genie (please respect it). buy it if you belive, don't buy it if you don't. gitu saja kok repot ( please take it easy).

one day one said don't buy keris because of the magic or story (don't belive what he said as long as he is a javanese malay or other southeast asian) but you must respect it.

one day US seller on Ebay said that his keris has genie and other said " guinea or pig or hog" please don't condamed it but respect it

but one who said org , pig or guinea is hog itself. Respect it.

but the important is please respect each other so that keris can't killed human being but keris is loved by humanbeing. belive it.....

The man belive god as their savior and respect the keris as the masterpiece is not the pig or guinea (One said) but the wise man who belive there is other power exept our fool brain, please respect and belive it.









:)

I have to question your motives behind your statements.
There are always times in life where one has to cast judgment. Your approach seems to be motivated by a shared belief. I'm looking for an objective opinion when looking for truth. Beliefs don't concern me at all when facts and hard earned money is concerned. Beliefs are not tangible but money is. By your comments I don't expect you to understand this.
If there where such objects that can bestow blessings, why do sellers sell them for money? Seems very deceptive and I don't respect deception.

[NotoriousCal]

Lelang, your call for respect should be well heeded, however i do not see any lack of respect voiced in this thread. There are certainly many mysteries in the world and one would be foolish to scoff outright at the possibilities. I personal try to keep an open mind while still maintaining a touch of skepticim lest i become someone elses fool. Unfortunately the realm of magick and mysticism has become a tool for the unscrupulous and (in some cases) criminal. For me it is not a matter of whether or not the keris can hold a mystical or magickal current. The question for me is does THIS keris that someone is trying to sell to me hold any such energy or am i just being treated to a nonsense story to grab my interest and convince me that i should buy the keris. Unfortunately most often i fear this is the case when we read about "powerful" keris being sold at auction. Faith is a beautiful thing and i truly respect it and the rights of others to believe whatever they see fit. Blind faith, however, leads to gulibility, and many people have been taken in this way over the years. The story that Alan Maisey has revealled here is a true one. He knows the inside story on this particular deal and the fact remains that this buyer was fooled. If one wants to believe something someone will always find a way to prove it to them, even if it isn't so, if there is money to be made. Those who choose not to question are easily fooled. An open mind must flow both ways. This story does not teach us that we should not believe that a keris can fly, just that keris did not. :) I appreciate your comments and I strongly agree.

[zeus74]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb_3tpNii7k

:p

[David]

Zeus, should i read your use of the tongue-out emoticon to mean that you present this video as a joke or as serious proof of flying keris. :)

[Jean]

Nylon wires and puppeters?

[kronckew]

magnets

[zeus74]

Zeus, should i read your use of the tongue-out emoticon to mean that you present this video as a joke or as serious proof of flying keris. :)

this is nothing. maybe it's just a trick or somewhat.. there's story in java, when majapahit storming keraton giri gresik the kris of sunan giri which have dapur kalamunyeng flying attacking the invaders.

[David]

this is nothing. maybe it's just a trick or somewhat.. there's story in java, when majapahit storming keraton giri gresik the kris of sunan giri which have dapur kalamunyeng flying attacking the invaders.
Zeus, belief is a powerful thing and it certain drives a great deal of the mystical side of keris culture. That said, i can almost (for how can one be absolutely sure about anything) guarantee that what is shown on this video is indeed a trick. I know numerous stage magicians who could do this trick even better. There are indeed many legends surrounding keris, some of which deal with flying. It makes little sense to discuss these legends here, however, as they will never be proven as fact or be seen as anything beyond legend or speculation. Legend surrounds blades in many other cultures as well. There is the wonderful legend of King Arthur pulling the sword Excalibur from the stone for one. Here is a list of "magic" weapons from all around the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_magical_weapons
These are great stories to tell our children, but what do they actually teach us about keris, it's intention, purpose or place in society and culture?
I have deleted all of you other posts in the moderation queue Zeus. Your first one was a link to a commercial Facebook site where people seem to be trying to sell mostly poorly identified low quality keris. Please understand that we are NOT a commercial site and if you have read the rules of this forum you would know that posting links to commercial pages here is strictly forbidden.
I deleted you other posts with links to youtube videos that you marked a "entertainment" because some had absolutely nothing to do with keris while others were more unprovable mystical entries, such as the man supposedly using keris and magic to mysteriously locate a hidden keris blade buried under a rock. The most obvious possibility being that he buried it there himself to be "magically" discovered later, no?
Please understand that it is not that we outright dismiss the mystical side of keris culture and philosophy here, but videos like the ones you were attempting to share for "entertainment" value are not the kind of things that are of any value for serious study of the keris. And any commercial links are completely unacceptable on this page. Thanks for understanding. :)

[zeus74]

sure, you can find artsy keris in madura and middle java. about low quality keris, better explore names at group directly and find keris that qualified as art works. in this case, how the west and native people have value-judgement is completely different. keris is the highest culture in java and only can comprehend under holistic manner. i don't mean this as post-colonial perspective.

i guess it's my last post

[David]

sure, you can find artsy keris in madura and middle java. about low quality keris, better explore names at group directly and find keris that qualified as art works. in this case, how the west and native people have value-judgement is completely different. keris is the highest culture in java and only can comprehend under holistic manner. i don't mean this as post-colonial perspective.

i guess it's my last post
Zeus, whether this is your last post or not is completely up to you. But i will say that you seem to have misunderstood what my criticisms of you posts actually were. This is not a matter of differing cultural value judgements. We simply do not discuss or post commercial links on this forum and the purpose of the forum is purely for study and knowledge, not to sell keris or discuss where one might buy keris.
I completely agree that keris is a part of the highest cultural aspects of Jawa and that it most certainly cannot be understood in a vacuum. Holistic methods of comprehending keris is of the utmost importance. However, trick videos claiming to show keris flying are at best an entertaining distraction to our deeper understanding of the subject.

[kronckew]

Z... There is the wonderful legend of King Arthur pulling the sword Excalibur from the stone for one. ...

...which makes more sense if you consider it a leftover from an earlier legend from the bronze age when they DID 'pull swords out of the stone' molds.

[Pusaka]

I dont believe keris can fly but I do believe they can rattle.

[David]

I dont believe keris can fly but I do believe they can rattle.
Well that settles that then... :)

[Pusaka]

Well that settles that then... :)

Did I mention that I have twice witnessed keris rattling ;)

[A. G. Maisey]

I've seen that myself, several times.

Usually associated with a keris in a poorly fitting wrongko that has been subjected to vibrations caused by an earth tremor or a strong wind, or a heavy truck driving past the house.

I witnessed all the examples I have given.

Or maybe the wrongko did not particularly like the intrusion of a strange keris. Wrongkos can be touchy little devils, being female as they are, and it is known that some wrongkos will only accept the keris for which they were intended, and reject all forced marriages.

[Pusaka]

The first time I seen a keris rattling was at a gurus place, actually it was unfortunate because the keris started rattling precisely as I walked into the room and approached him. I looked at the keris on the wall and I could see the guru also noticed it but his body language was strictly "I dont want to talk about it and dont ask me about it" so we both stood there ignoring the keris rattling on the wall. This guru thought I was somewhat demonic and lets just say we didnt have a long relationship :D


The second occasion,not really an occasion because it lasted over two years.
I lived with a keris that would rattle very often and it became very normal, even annoying at times. I had heard some teachings about the esoteric aspect of the keris and I managed to understand the ritual even though I was only told parts of it. So I tried it I had a friend make me a keris and to make it extra special I gave him a small meteorite that I wanted incorporated into the blade.

When I received the blade I began preforming the ritual every night with the keris with the idea of bringing the blade alive. After about a month of doing this every night before going to bed I placed the blade next to my bed on a bedside cabinet resting on a hardback book. I went to sleep and was woken in the middle of the night by the keris rattling next to my bed. It freaked me out at first but then I thought its what you wanted isn't it. Anyway I lived for a whole two years with this keris frequently rattling and got very used to it, actually for a while I thought of it like a pet. I would get very annoyed on occasion when it would wake me up late at night or early in the morning. I actually put it out in the hallway once I had enough of its behaviour.
After about two years of not "feeding it" it slowly stopped rattling but during that time it was entertaining at first and I made several experiments with it.

[satsujinken]

The first time I seen a keris rattling was at a gurus place, actually it was unfortunate because the keris started rattling precisely as I walked into the room and approached him. I looked at the keris on the wall and I could see the guru also noticed it but his body language was strictly "I dont want to talk about it and dont ask me about it" so we both stood there ignoring the keris rattling on the wall. This guru thought I was somewhat demonic and lets just say we didnt have a long relationship :D


The second occasion,not really an occasion because it lasted over two years.
I lived with a keris that would rattle very often and it became very normal, even annoying at times. I had heard some teachings about the esoteric aspect of the keris and I managed to understand the ritual even though I was only told parts of it. So I tried it I had a friend make me a keris and to make it extra special I gave him a small meteorite that I wanted incorporated into the blade.

When I received the blade I began preforming the ritual every night with the keris with the idea of bringing the blade alive. After about a month of doing this every night before going to bed I placed the blade next to my bed on a bedside cabinet resting on a hardback book. I went to sleep and was woken in the middle of the night by the keris rattling next to my bed. It freaked me out at first but then I thought its what you wanted isn't it. Anyway I lived for a whole two years with this keris frequently rattling and got very used to it, actually for a while I thought of it like a pet. I would get very annoyed on occasion when it would wake me up late at night or early in the morning. I actually put it out in the hallway once I had enough of its behaviour.
After about two years of not "feeding it" it slowly stopped rattling but during that time it was entertaining at first and I made several experiments with it.


you need to turn off the vibrate mode on the keris :P
just kidding, Pusaka

I am an Indonesian and used to hear such stories, but never witnessed one myself

the weirdest thing happened to me was to enter my grandmother's room and suddenly I felt the air is getting warmer and thicker to the point it was rather difficult to breathe

I asked my grandmother why and she simply said, it's the keris ... and pointing out to the keris behind her bedroom door, behind me

Donny

[David]

I lived with a keris that would rattle very often and it became very normal, even annoying at times. I had heard some teachings about the esoteric aspect of the keris and I managed to understand the ritual even though I was only told parts of it. So I tried it I had a friend make me a keris and to make it extra special I gave him a small meteorite that I wanted incorporated into the blade.

When I received the blade I began preforming the ritual every night with the keris with the idea of bringing the blade alive. After about a month of doing this every night before going to bed I placed the blade next to my bed on a bedside cabinet resting on a hardback book. I went to sleep and was woken in the middle of the night by the keris rattling next to my bed. It freaked me out at first but then I thought its what you wanted isn't it. Anyway I lived for a whole two years with this keris frequently rattling and got very used to it, actually for a while I thought of it like a pet. I would get very annoyed on occasion when it would wake me up late at night or early in the morning. I actually put it out in the hallway once I had enough of its behaviour.
After about two years of not "feeding it" it slowly stopped rattling but during that time it was entertaining at first and I made several experiments with it.
Have you ever read the novel Frankenstein? Your description here reminds me a lot of the relationship between the doctor and his creature. It was not a good relationship. ;)

[Pusaka]

you need to turn off the vibrate mode on the keris :P
just kidding, Pusaka

I am an Indonesian and used to hear such stories, but never witnessed one myself

the weirdest thing happened to me was to enter my grandmother's room and suddenly I felt the air is getting warmer and thicker to the point it was rather difficult to breathe

I asked my grandmother why and she simply said, it's the keris ... and pointing out to the keris behind her bedroom door, behind me

Donny

Methods that have been lost over time but everything that was will be again and again such things will become more common like the swing of a pendulum. As I said in my experience if you do not "feed" the keris it dies within two years thus it is no surprise to me that such things are not observed.

[Pusaka]

Have you ever read the novel Frankenstein? Your description here reminds me a lot of the relationship between the doctor and his creature. It was not a good relationship. ;)

After a while I began to understand that the reason it rattles has nothing to do with being alive or warning of danger. Basically the process makes the blade responsive to energy fields and then when there is a change to local energy fields such as changes in Earth energy, solar flairs, weather, biological energy's the keris rides these invisible waves making it rattle. So in the end I began to see it more like a magnet responding to changes in local magnetic fields and less like a living thing.

At first it was quite exciting like a new discovery but after a while it became quite normal. On several occasions it would be very early in the morning like 4am and the thing would start rattling in my bedroom so I started to get annoyed by it.

[A. G. Maisey]

This post has been removed from this thread.

I put it into the wrong thread.

It is my firm belief that I was santeted, by whom or by what Force I have no idea, but it demonstrates what can happen when one gets too close to the Truth in these arcane matters.

[David]

:D :D :D :rolleyes:

[Pusaka]

A. G. Maisey

My keris never flew however, just rattled, perhaps I lacked the magical potency to make a flying keris :D

[Bill M]

Fascinating posts.

For myself, I - maybe -, have a flying keris. I acquired the keris and it was in need of cleaning. I separated the blade from the handle and sheath. Cleaned the blade and put it on a top shelf in my workroom.

Carefully, I cleaned the handle, the sheath, the metal parts, let them dry as the finish materials set up. I had been working several days on this.

But when I looked for the blade and it was gone, missing. I searched the workroom from top to bottom. No result. Maybe, though I was certain that I had not moved it from the top shelf, I searched the entire house, our cars, everywhere, it was GONE. Could the blade being naked, it decided to fly away?

So I put it out of my mind. Put the handle and sheath on that top shelf - the blade was still gone. Two weeks later I happened to look on a different shelf and the blade was there! I had carefully looked at that same shelf myriad times. Mystifying! Did it fly away and return? Who knows?

I have studied the paranormal for 40 years. I have seen people seriously focussed on the "Phenomena". Working hard to see a ghost. To have poltergeists moving objects. Seeing "things".

To me, the study of phenomena is a distraction to my studies. I seriously the dead ghost of "Aunt Matilda." Could teach me any more than Aunt Matilda could have told me very much when she was alive.

I put the keris back together and put it with the others.

Do I believe in the connection with the "visible and invisible?" Sure. But I am more interested in "bridges" to the invisible. Can a keris be a 'bridge', and too many people think so. I think it can be a "point of focus" that can help me feel my way to higher levels, the inner planes. But IF is is true to me. I do not care if other people it does. Only if it helps me!

Take a keris and stick it in my shadow? I will walk away - with my shadow - and the keris can stay behind in the ground. If I see a group of people seeing a tiger flying around the room? And I do not? It is THEIR world, not mine. And they can have their world and I have mine.

To me "phenomena" is most likely to hold you to the material world. Think about this? Do you want to reach higher?

In a keris, I see Beauty. And Beauty comes from the inner planes. Simple enough. Get lost in the patterns, the shapes, see Beauty. You are going well, getting higher, reaching to God.

Anything can be a point of focus. A keris, a rock, a piece of wood, a smell, a delightful taste. A sunset. Nature. Beautiful woman.

See the "man" beyond the blade.

[Pusaka]

The thing about these type of keris is that if they are not maintained their energy fades over time. Some of those formally live old keris have faded due to neglect.

I dont think the modern keris makers know how to empower these blades any more. So you could say at least one aspect of keris making has died, at least thats what I think.

[Rick]

Most of my kerises are kemardikan; most, I believe, were made for purchase by unknown persons, many of them not of keris cultures.

So every time a pande makes a keris he somehow imbues with a spirit or 'soul' no matter if it's going to a Christian in New York city or a Muslim or Hindu villager in Jawa?
How does that work?

[Pusaka]

I dont think most (if any) modern keris makers imbue the keris they are making with anything. They just make it as fast as possible so that they can start the next one :D

[A. G. Maisey]

That is not quite so Pusaka.

It may appear to be so to somebody on the outside looking in, and yes, in many cases it is so, but there is at least one Balinese Pande who can still create a keris using the correct mantras and ceremonies.

During the 1980's there were two empus in Jawa who would accept commissions for a traditionally made keris.

If a keris is being made as an art work, or as an item of commerce, it would be totally inappropriate and commercially unviable to create it using the traditional offerings, mantras and prohibitions, so it cannot be expected that a keris that has been made as an item of commerce will have too much of the esoteric about it.

However, much of this business of a keris having some particular essence or power is rooted in the beliefs of its custodian, and there are those who believe that even an "empty" keris can have particular powers called into it.

There is something else that must be mentioned too, and that is that even for a keris that is believed to have some particular esoteric content, that content will only be accessible by a particular person, and it is usually not of the nature imagined by non-initiates. An example of this would be the true pusaka keris that acts as a binding agent that brings together all custodians of previous generations with all members of a kin group in the present generation.

There has probably been more uninformed rubbish written about the "magic" powers of The Keris than perhaps all other cultural artifacts.

We must never forget that The Keris has the nature of a meru and as such it is an empty place waiting the entry of a spiritual entity, thus care must be exercised to ensure that whatever entity might care to take up permanent or passing residence in the keris is not of a negative nature.

[Pusaka]

Maisey thanks for that, I think this guy in Bali is a rarity perhaps because he is a Hindu these mantras have survived there. These mantras as I understand it are all vedic and I question their survival in Islamic Indonesia. They are most likely to be replaced with Islamic prayer and if so the whole efficiency is lost.
Same with the making of cimande oil, it requires vedic mantras to be chanted over it as far as I understand, how will a strict Muslim chant vedic mantra, again the temptation is to replace it with verse from the Koran.

I was reading another thread on here where you say that you like to drench your keris in WD40, and then paint them with Sandalwood oil mix. I was always told you must not put unnatural oils on a live keris as it will kill it, the smoke and the oil is its food. I dont think it would enjoy WD40 what do you think?

[Bill M]

That is not quite so Pusaka.

It may appear to be so to somebody on the outside looking in, and yes, in many cases it is so, but there is at least one Balinese Pande who can still create a keris using the correct mantras and ceremonies.

During the 1980's there were two empus in Jawa who would accept commissions for a traditionally made keris.

If a keris is being made as an art work, or as an item of commerce, it would be totally inappropriate and commercially unviable to create it using the traditional offerings, mantras and prohibitions, so it cannot be expected that a keris that has been made as an item of commerce will have too much of the esoteric about it.

However, much of this business of a keris having some particular essence or power is rooted in the beliefs of its custodian, and there are those who believe that even an "empty" keris can have particular powers called into it.

There is something else that must be mentioned too, and that is that even for a keris that is believed to have some particular esoteric content, that content will only be accessible by a particular person, and it is usually not of the nature imagined by non-initiates. An example of this would be the true pusaka keris that acts as a binding agent that brings together all custodians of previous generations with all members of a kin group in the present generation.

There has probably been more uninformed rubbish written about the "magic" powers of The Keris than perhaps all other cultural artifacts.

We must never forget that The Keris has the nature of a meru and as such it is an empty place waiting the entry of a spiritual entity, thus care must be exercised to ensure that whatever entity might care to take up permanent or passing residence in the keris is not of a negative nature.

WOW! Beautifully said! I am in alignment.

[Bill M]

Maisey thanks for that, I think this guy in Bali is a rarity perhaps because he is a Hindu these mantras have survived there. These mantras as I understand it are all vedic and I question their survival in Islamic Indonesia. They are most likely to be replaced with Islamic prayer and if so the whole efficiency is lost.
Same with the making of cimande oil, it requires vedic mantras to be chanted over it as far as I understand, how will a strict Muslim chant vedic mantra, again the temptation is to replace it with verse from the Koran.


I am curious about your comments. What are your sources? Or are you just espousing your personal opinions?

It was my understanding that Indonesian Islam is founded and intermixed with previous religions and varies that even though the majority of Indonesia is Islam, but syncretic with other religions.

Quite different from than the Middle East Islam.

So it could be, and possibly would be, Islamic prayer still be infused in the keris.

[Bill M]

We must never forget that The Keris has the nature of a meru and as such it is an empty place waiting the entry of a spiritual entity, thus care must be exercised to ensure that whatever entity might care to take up permanent or passing residence in the keris is not of a negative nature.

"there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

I suppose - I am open to questions - that most keris were made for an individual, perhaps factoring in the person's status, possibly a scholar or military. As well as the person's numerology and other factors such as auspicious astrological events.

The finer keris may have been made to greater exacting standards. The more Beauty, in terms of the original custodian and those that follow - and the Beauty is always personal.

The greater Beauty has power as with all artifacts.

But the original pande whom made the keris infused the nature of the original custodian. That "nature" could be very positive for a scholarly individual, but might be very negative to a warlike individual and vice versa.

So, by the nature of the keris could affect present custodian, and as Alan Maisey so well said, there is a line of past custodians who have connected with the keris over time.

Personally, my fascination with the keris is that most were handmade. Imagine a dark hellish forge where the blade was made. Fire, hammering, folding, quenched and carefully made. Likely it would have been dark, so the pande could judge the heat by the color of the metal.

The blade was birthed in fire, smoke, noise. Then, is a very different setting, the dress was made. Different craftsman. Light, beauty, incense, quietude, the keris was clothed.

All these could have been done on auspicious events. It could and possibly did take years. Making a keris "right" would take time.

At some point in the process, the blade was cleaned, stained and anointed. It was renewed in yearly ceremonies. Dress was changed by the custodians many times during their lifetimes. Could be events of birth, puberty, marriage, even the fortunes of the custodians.

The dress is really just a dress. In the blade, the heart and soul resides.

Respect the blade. "respect" and "fear" are the same root word.

Think about this.

[Pusaka]

I am curious about your comments. What are your sources? Or are you just espousing your personal opinions?

It was my understanding that Indonesian Islam is founded and intermixed with previous religions and varies that even though the majority of Indonesia is Islam, but syncretic with other religions.

Quite different from than the Middle East Islam.

So it could be, and possibly would be, Islamic prayer still be infused in the keris.

Well I used to practice Silat and so learnt a few things regarding Keris through that, plus reading, plus Indonesian friends who sell and deal with keris.

As to the harmony in Indonesia between Islam and other religions you speak of...Nope!

Just one example below but you can find many

"Borobudur, Islamists target Indonesia’s most important Buddhist temple
by Mathias HariyadiThe complex, a UNESCO World Heritage Site, risks being destroyed like the Buddhas of Bamiyan. Authorities strengthen security measures. Citizens invited to participate in the defense of "cultural heritage". President Yudhoyono declares jihadist violence "humiliating" for Islam....."

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Borobudur,-Islamists-target-Indonesia’s-most-important-Buddhist-temple-31946.html

You also suggest that a vedic mantra can be replaced by an Islamic prayer and the outcome will be the same, not so because it has everything to do with a knowledge of sound. The whole Science of mantra is based on sound, tone, melody and the effects these cause. You cannot replace these "formulas" (sonic compositions) with some Islamic prayer of your choosing and expect the same result.

[kronckew]

...

I was reading another thread on here where you say that you like to drench your keris in WD40, and then paint them with Sandalwood oil mix. I was always told you must not put unnatural oils on a live keris as it will kill it, the smoke and the oil is its food. I dont think it would enjoy WD40 what do you think?

Heck, I don't use WD40 on any weapon, it's OK for loosening nuts on other items, but isn't even a good rust preventative, mediocre at best. It dries eventually, leaving a residue.

I do use Ballistol, but not on my only kris...Smells nicer too, no known hazards to life.

[A. G. Maisey]

Well, I've just read through the posts that have been entered since my previous one.

It does seem that I need to set some time aside to respond to these posts, they are not the sort of thing that I can dash off a 3 minute response to, and I'll do that just as soon as I can arrange the time.

[David]

Well, i'm going to let Alan respond to these comments first.
But in the meantime, please refrain from adding political/religious controversy to these pages. Thank you.

[A. G. Maisey]

A warning:- this post is long, and for anybody who does not have a solid interest in keris and Indonesia, it will be very boring, so just give it a miss and move on to a different thread.

David, I have noted your request, and I shall do my best to comply, however, it may prove to be quite difficult to discuss matters which are by their very nature, religious, without mentioning religion. Politics I can probably skirt around, but once again, in order to respond adequately to some of the matters raised, accurate, defensible responses must inevitably touch on political matters.

However, taking the meaning of "controversy" as given by Oxford, I can most certainly avoid controversy, because I will not engage in any debate in respect of what follows.

Kronckew & Oils
I do agree with you in that Ballistol, and probably most other oils designed for firearms are far superior as protectants and/or lubricants than is WD40 and the traditional oils used on items of tosan aji.
But the reason I use WD40 is not because I want it to act as either a lubricant or a protectant. I use it to remove moisture and dirt. I use it as a cleaning agent.
WD 40 displaces water (WD = water displacer), as a drench it also removes dirt and the residue left by brushing with mineral turpentine and the accumulation of maintenance failure.
The process of cleaning tosan aji involves the use of water, as does the staining of tosan aji, and as does also the staining of damascus steel --- of which I have made a more than a little. If we simply want to clean up a lightly rusted blade, a soak or repeated drenching with WD40 will assist in removal of the rust. We can then work at mechanical removal, wash down with turps, use the WD40 again to remove the turps.
After the solvents in the WD40 have evaporated a light residue will be left on the blade, it does no harm, and then a protectant oil can be applied. With tosan aji that protectant oil is a base oil + a fragrant oil. This is not a good protectant, but it is a traditional protectant. Ballistol is vastly superior as a protectant, but no traditionalist would ever use Ballistol or any other oil with such a smell on a piece of tosan aji.

After applying the fragrant oil I wrap the blade in a plastic sleeve. I have blades prepared for storage in this way that have gone without any need for attention for more than 20 years. I live 25 meters from a salt water lake.

Before WD40 became available, which was probably in the 1960's where I live, I used a penetrating oil in the same way that I now use WD40. I think WD40 was originally developed by the US military as a cleaning agent for missiles.

We need to understand why we use WD40.

Indonesia and Tolerance
In the 19th century a couple of British ethnologists first coined the name "Indonesia, or "Indunesia" for the string of islands that were variously known as the Dutch East Indies, the Indian Archipelago, the Malay Archipelago, Nusantara and maybe a few more names. In 1945 Sukarno used the name Indonesia when he read the Proclamation of Indonesian Independence. Since that time "Indonesia" has been used as the short title for the Republic of Indonesia.

As a country Indonesia is young, and it embraces many cultures, it is quite incorrect to think of Indonesia as a coherent entity with everybody going in the same direction. Prior to Dutch occupation and control the islands of Indonesia were under the control of a large number of minor rulers. Throughout history we find that one political entity in the Archipelago will dominate for a time, and then be replaced by another. Since at least the 14th century the dominant culture in Maritime South East Asia has been Java. Today Java is the dominant culture in Indonesia, something that the peoples of the other Indonesian societal groups find to be somewhat difficult to accept.

So, when we speak of any Indonesian characteristic, such as religious tolerance, we really need to qualify that with identification of the segment of the nation of which we speak:- just lumping all Indonesian people into one basket named "Tolerance" is not at all a wise way to go.

When the political philosophy of Indonesia was established, its foundational tenets were expressed in the Panca Sila:-
1 BELIEF IN THE ONE AND ONLY GOD
2 JUST AND CIVILIZED HUMANITY
3 THE UNITY OF INDONESIA
4 DEMOCRACY GUIDED BY THE INNER WISDOM IN THE UNANIMITY
ARISING OUT OF DELIBERATIONS AMONGST REPRESENTATIVES
5 SOCIAL JUSTICE FOR THE WHOLE OF THE PEOPLE OF INDONESIA

The idea of belief in one God guaranteed freedom of religion, provided that the religion held to the idea of "One God". The religions recognised by the new state of Indonesia were:-
Islam, Protestant Christianity, Roman-Catholic Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and Confucianism

This echoed the religious freedom that was present in the Golden Age of Majapahit, Majapahit accepted that a man had freedom to worship his God in his own way. So philosophically both the old Hindu-Buddhist kingdom of Majapahit, and the new state of Indonesia granted freedom of religion to all members of the community.

This restriction of the designated accepted religions created some difficulties. In Bali it generated the reshaping of Bali-Hindu into Agama Hindu Dharma, in Java it resulted in the vast numbers of rural people who still observed traditional indigenous beliefs, in nominating Islam as their religion. These people are popularly termed "Abangan", "bang" being Javanese for "red" in reference to the red soil from which they live. They are nominally Muslim, but in reality their beliefs are the beliefs of their ancestors, for more than 2000 years before them.

The Abangan people are thought of as "Islam Kartu Penduduk", that is "Identification Card Islamic" (in Indonesia everybody must carry an identification card). This is a major reason why Indonesia is the most populous Islamic nation on earth. Java is the most densely populated island in Indonesia, and one of the most densely populated places on earth. So, when we think of Indonesia as Islamic, we need to temper our ideas by taking account of just how many people identified in government statistics as Islamic are in fact followers of any strict Islamic code. As numerous authorities have commented:- Islam in Java is unlike Islam in any other part of the world.

In recent years Indonesia has seen the rise of radical Islam. We have seen a number of bombings and attacks on Churches and police stations, but it is very important to understand that these actions that have been taken by an infinitesimally small number of misguided people do not in any way represent the character of the Indonesian people, most especially do these actions not represent the character of either the Javanese people or the Balinese people. In fact, the common people of both these places are greatly grieved by the events that have taken place within their societies, but the general attitude is one of "acceptance".

There is good in the world as well as evil, in fact good cannot exist without evil, both must be present in order to achieve balance, further, good can be evil, and evil can be good.

So, yes, religious tolerance and religious freedom are inseparable from the guiding philosophy that founded the Indonesian state, and for at least the people of Java and Bali, this tolerance is an ingrained element of their societies, and of the character of individual people.

However in some parts of Indonesia there is a somewhat less tolerant attitude.

Those who have an interest in this subject of tolerance and intolerance in Indonesia will find plenty of information by asking Dr. Google a few pointed questions.

Here is a short list of relevant texts that will be useful in assisting understanding:-

Anderson Benedict R. O'G., "Mythology and the Tolerance of the Javanese", Cornell University, Ithaca,
New York, 1965

de Graaf H.J. , Pigeaud Th.G.Th., "Kerajaan-Kerajaaan Islam Pertama di Jawa", PT Pustaka Grafitipers,
Jakarta, 1986

Eisman Fred B. jr., "Sekala and Niskala", Periplus Editions, First Edition 1990,
ISBN 0-945971-03-6

Geertz Clifford, "The Religion of Java", The Free Press, Glencoe Illinois, (1960), Library of Congress
Catalogue Card No. 59-13863

Hadisutrisno Budiono, "Islam Kejawen", Eule Book, ISBN 978-602-95078-0-5

Koentjaraningrat, "Kebudayaan Jawa", PN Balai Pustaka, Jakarta, 1984
Mulder Niels, "Abangan Javanese Religious Thought and Practice", in Bijdragen Tot de Taal, Land- en
Volkenkunde # 139-2, 1983

Negoro Suryo S., "Kejawen, Javanese Spiritual Teaching", CV Buana Raya,
Surakarta, 2000

The Nature of the Keris

Contrary to popular belief the vast majority of Javanese keris that we find today were made as items of trade. Since about 1750 the keris in Jawa has had the nature of a requisite item of dress with the secondary nature of a weapon, a nature somewhat similar to the nature of the European small sword.

Where the keris differs from the small sword is that the people for whom the keris was intended have a very different view of the world to the view of the world that is usual for Europeans. Thus we find that in even the ordinary keris, made as an item of trade, there in usually an inherent talismanic value, that value is usually attached to the pamor motif, but can also be attached to the dhapur or form.

The way in which to understand dhapur is that the dhapur or form can be associated with particular stations in life or professions. For example, a keris with one of the kebo dhapurs can be understood as being favourable for a person who is in some way associated with agriculture or husbandry.

Popular belief has it that there are two possible esoteric attachments to a keris, the first is the tuah, the talismanic value of the keris. For example, pamor wos wutah (scattered rice grains) is an effective talisman against need, udan mas (golden rain) assists in the accumulation of wealth, and so on. It is important to understand that Javanese magic, like all Malay based magic, is sympathetic in nature.

The other esoteric attachment to a keris is the isi, literally, the content of the blade, that which dwells within the blade, and that isi can be either good or evil, and sometimes both.

The presence, and the effectiveness of both the tuah and the isi depends entirely upon the belief of the custodian of the keris, or upon the interaction between the keris and a person. The existence of both the isi and the effectiveness of the tuah is a product of human interaction with the keris, neither can exist without that interaction.

A very, very small number of Javanese keris were made as pusaka keris for a specific person. If a person wanted a pusaka keris he would first and foremost need to be a very wealthy person, and secondly the empu would need to agree to accept him as a client.

This second requirement could never be taken for granted, because if the empu could not read that potential client, he would usually reject the commission. The reason for the wealth requirement is that a pusaka keris requires observances, prohibitions, offerings, and slametans at specific points during manufacture. The empu is not making just another keris, he is making a shrine.

In Bali it seems that things were perhaps a little different. Much of Balinese traditional observance and belief was disrupted by the puputans, but it would appear that a greater proportion of Balinese keris were made on commission than was the case in Java, whilst the role of talismanic intent seems to have been far less. The Balinese keris was primarily a weapon, with a secondary role as an item of dress.

Indonesian Forge technology

Indonesian forge technology is primitive. At the present time in Jawa, most, if not all makers of keris have to greater or lesser degree copied European technology, but even so, most forges are not the dark, enclosed space that we associate with the European smith, the Javanese forge might be in a shed with perhaps only one side, and that one side will most likely be woven leaves.

If we look at the way in which many common smiths work, the smiths who make tools, reset springs, fit wheel rims and etc, those forges can be in the open air, under the shade of a tree, and the fire is most likely in a small depression in the ground, and blown by ububan, two tubes of bambu powered by big plungers that look like feather dusters, you can see this in the forge stele at Candi Sukuh:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/CANDISUKUHPHOTOSPAGE1.html

Understanding of the keris is not something that just sort of "happens". It requires continual dedication over a number of years and serious targeted study. If these things are not to one's liking it is perhaps better not to attempt understanding but simply to accumulate.

[Jean]

A long but very educative post Alan, thanks! :)
I am using either Ballistol or WD40 sprays for avoiding blade rusting and it works very well, contrary to the traditional scented oils. If I remember well I could not apply scented oil on a blade already treated with WD40 as it would not penetrate into the metal.
Regards

[Pusaka]

Rusting is the process of oxidisation or loss of electrons. Is it possible that those who do not want to add synthetic or petroleum based oils/preservers to their blades might find something in nature to provide some protection?

Some time ago 72 essential oils were evaluated for their antioxidant quality's, their ability to stop oxidisation. Clove oil was found to be the most potent so I guess the Japanese sword makers got it right. Unfortunately I do not like the smell of clove. Rose ranked 10th Ylang Ylang 14th, Wintergreen 18th. Of all the oils they tested Sandalwood had the lowest antioxidant value. Anise ranked 3rd...could be something to experiment with.

Wintergreen oil is traditionally added to coconut base keris oils to prevent the oil going rancid. This is perhaps what gives Ylang Ylang keris oil a kick that straight Ylang Ylang essential oil lacks.

I think in older times keris oils were not made from essential oils but be boiling all kinds of herb matter and flowers in coconut oil.

Jojoba Oil as a base although not commonly used as a keris oil is superior to coconut due to it being despite the name a wax that is liquid at room temperature.

Evaporation of these oils however needs to be prevented and placing the blade in a plastic sheath would be a good means to achieve this.


Clove – 1,078,700
Myrrh – 379,800
Anise – 333,700
Citronella – 312,000
Coriander – 298,300
Fennel – 238,400
Clary Sage – 221,000
German Chamomile – 218,600
Cedarwood – 169,000
Rose – 158,100
Nutmeg – 158,100
Marjoram – 151,000
Melissa – 139,905
Ylang Ylang – 134,300
Palmarosa – 130,000
Rosewood – 113,200
Manuka – 106,200
Wintergreen – 101,800
Geranium – 101,000
Ginger – 99,300
Bay Laurel – 98,900
Eucalyptus Citriodora – 83,000
Cumin – 82,400
Black Pepper – 79,700
Vetiver – 74,300
Petitgrain – 73,600
Blue Cypress – 73,100
Citrus Hystrix/Combava/Kaffir Lime – 69,200
Douglas Fir – 69,000
Blue Tansy – 68,800
Goldenrod – 61,900
Melaleuca ericifolia/Rosalina – 61,100
Blue Yarrow – 55,900
Spikenard – 54,800
Basil – 54,000
Patchouli – 49,400
White Fir – 47,900
Tarragon – 37,900
Melaleuca Cajeputi/Cajeput – 37,600
Peppermint – 37,300
Cardamom – 36,500
Dill – 35,600
Celery Seed – 30,300
Fleabane, Canadian – 26,700
Mandarin – 26,500
Lime – 26,200
Galbanum – 26,200
Myrtle – 25,400
Cypress – 24,300
Grapefruit – 22,600
Hyssop – 20,900
Balsam Fir – 20,500
Melaleuca Quinquenervia/Niaouli – 18,600
Thyme – 15,960
Oregano – 15,300
Cassia – 15,170
Sage – 14,800
Mountain Savory – 11,300
Cinnamon Bark – 10,340
Tsuga – 7,100
Valerian – 6,200
Cistus – 3,860
Eucalyptus Globulus – 2,410
Orange – 1,890
Lemongrass – 1,780
Helichrysum – 1,740
Ravintsara – 890
Lemon – 660
Frankincense Carteri – 630
Spearmint – 540
Lavender – 360
Rosemary – 330
Juniper – 250
Roman Chamomile – 240
Sandalwood – 160

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, as I mentioned in my lengthy post above, I have used WD40 for a very long time.

If WD40 became publicly available in Australia in , say, 1965, it is certain that I have treated more than 2000 blades with WD40. I began treating all sorts of blades, keris included, with penetrating oil sometime between 1953 and 1960, as soon as WD40 became available I began to use that. Between 1953 and 1960 I would have treated perhaps a couple of hundred blades.

My keris collection began in 1953 with a gift of a collection from my grandfather, I still have some of those keris and other edged weapons, and they would have been treated several times with WD40 during the time I have had them.

I have never experienced any problem at all that is related to the inability of fragrant oils to penetrate WD40 or the penetrating oil I used to use. In fact several times prior to 1966 I used clove oil on my keris. I did this because at that time I was unaware of the oils used in Jawa for keris, but I had heard that Japanese blades were anointed with clove oil, so I jumped onto the clove oil cart.

I have not used clove oil on a blade in more than 50 years, however, some of blades that I anointed with clove oil more than 50 years ago still retain a very faint smell of clove oil that underlies the later applications of sandalwood and kenongo.

I do not know why your use of WD40 did not produce satisfactory results, and if you have no confidence in WD40 for whatever reason, it is best that you do not use it, but WD40 most certainly does work for me.



Pusaka, I greatly appreciate your detailed listing of the protective qualities of some natural oils, however, in the case of the oils that are traditionally used on keris in Jawa, this information is not really relevant. The oils that we use in Jawa are selected for social and cultural reasons, not really for efficacy as protectant barriers against corrosion. Of course whatever oil is used on a blade, there will be some protective effect, but in in Jawa, that effect is a side effect, not a primary objective.

Once a keris moves outside its Javanese, or other natural environment, it has been freed from the parameters that would apply in its place of origin, most particularly so where that keris is in the custody of a person whose objectives in having possession of the keris differ from the objectives of a person from the originating culture of the keris.

In other words once it has ceased to be a part of its originating culture and is being cared for by a person who does not understand that culture, any oil that gives some sort of protection is better than no oil at all.

As I just mentioned, I used clove oil myself many years ago, I used to buy it from a pharmacist. I do not find the smell particularly objectionable, but it used to go hard on the blades, even though I used it, I did not like it much for blade use.

Rose oil is an oil that is considered to be suitable for use on keris, it is not favoured by many people, but it is used.

Ylang ylang oil is definitely not used in Jawa as a traditional keris oil.

What happened with ylang ylang is this:- ylang ylang oil is produced from the same tree that provides kenanga (kenongo) oil, but kenanga oil is produced from the immature flower, ylang ylang is produced from the mature flower.

When minyak (oil) kenongo is used in keris oil, only a very small quantity is used, in the oil that I prepare that quantity is about 5%, its effect is to give a very sharp edge to the smell, and to reduce the sometimes overpowering sweetness of the minyak cendana (cendono - sandalwood).

Now, when keris interested people who live in countries other than Indonesia found out that minyak kenongo was a component of many traditional keris oils, they tried to buy it , but they found that they could not, however, a few of these people did the research and found that minyak kenongo came from the same flower as ylang ylang oil (the cananga odorata blossom). Because they had never smelt raw minyak kenongo they assumed that ylang ylang oil and minyak kenongo were the same. This was an incorrect assumption. Ylang ylang oil is vastly different to minyak kenongo.

In respect of wintergreen oil.
This oil is produced from a group of plants that are native to the Americas, it is most definitely not a component of any keris oil that follows a traditional Javanese combination of oils.
The traditional oils used in Jawa that use coconut oil as a base invariably go rancid and congeal on the blade, unless regularly replaced --- a requirement which is obviously quite beneficial for the people who sell ready to use keris oil.

[Bill M]

Fascinating! Not boring.

[David]

[B] David, I have noted your request, and I shall do my best to comply, however, it may prove to be quite difficult to discuss matters which are by their very nature, religious, without mentioning religion. Politics I can probably skirt around, but once again, in order to respond adequately to some of the matters raised, accurate, defensible responses must inevitably touch on political matters.

However, taking the meaning of "controversy" as given by Oxford, I can most certainly avoid controversy, because I will not engage in any debate in respect of what follows.
Alan, while i'm pretty sure you understood my meaning, the word "controversy" was key to that meaning. Nothing you have written is problematic and any way and i thank you for this detailed and informational response. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you David

[Pusaka]

Thanks for the classification Alan. With regards to the wintergreen oil there is also an Indian species of wintergreen Gaultheria fragrantissim (gandapura) I think it is also an ingredient used in the keris oils used in the royal palace collections.

[A. G. Maisey]

OK, got it.

Minyak gondopuro (or gandapura), I know that, it is used in massage oil and for relieving aches and pains. Never heard the botanical name until until you told me.

I've never heard of it as a component of keris oil, Karaton keris oil or otherwise, and my teacher and mentor, Empu Suparman was the ranking empu of the Karaton Surakarta prior to 1995.

The oil mix I use is the same as he used, except I use medicinal paraffin or sewing machine oil, he used cooking oil from coconuts.

But if it does stop coconut oil from becoming rancid, it could certainly be used in any number of oils, I guess.

EDIT

I just finished a conversation with a lady who has a background in traditional Javanese and Chinese medicine --- her family owns a traditional medicine shop and factory in East Jawa and she managed both for a number of years.

She was of the opinion that minyak gondopuro probably would stop coconut oil from becoming rancid. She had never tested this idea, but her experience with minyak gondopuro indicated that it could be likely that it would act as a preservative.

[Jean]

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]
I do not know why your use of WD40 did not produce satisfactory results, and if you have no confidence in WD40 for whatever reason, it is best that you do not use it, but WD40 most certainly does work for me.

Sorry Alan, I did not say that at all, on the contrary!
I just remember one case when I tried to apply a scented oil after treating the blade with WD 40 spray (and letting it to dry and wiping the excess with a cloth as usual) and the oil would not stick to the surface as if the WD40 had produced an impervious barrier. This was probably due to the scented oil composition and anyway I don't use them anymore.
Regards :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Please forgive my misunderstanding Jean.

I always allow the WD40 to dry at the very least overnight, then I apply more fragrant oil than is necessary with a varnish brush, I allow that fragrant oil to dry off over a couple of days, normally just stand it point down in the workshop, then I pat the blade down with a lint free cloth, work over the blade with an old tooth brush, and put it into a plastic sleeve.

Seems to last for as long as I wish it to.

[Pusaka]

Imperfect translation but found this:

"Coconut oil by the fermentation process will be broken down into acidic granules and other acids, prevention is to mix a little with Gandapura oil, the comparison: 100 cc of coconut oil can be used 10-15 cc of gandapura oil.
Besides sandalwood, kanthil, jasmine (jasmin) / kenanga can be used.

For the Yogya palace the ratio is 1: 1, meaning that 100 cc of coconut oil uses 100 cc of sandalwood oil.

For the solo method, comparison is 25 krengsengan oil: 10 parts of cananga oil: 3 parts of gandapura oil.

Weapon oil can also be used, but many keris esoteri experts say the use of mineral oil will greatly reduce the esoteri of the kris themselves, if not forced to use this type of oil is avoided. "

[Bill M]

I use Evapo-Rust for most items. It gently removes rust and cleans deeply. It is a water base, so I follow it up with a soak in WD 40 to removes any residual water.

Also electrolysis does a good job.

Important to soak the article completely for an even cleaning.

Still experimenting with staining solutions. Advice. I can get commercial only chemicals of any kind through a chemistry professor. So also advise. I am extremely careful with toxic chemicals.

[A. G. Maisey]

Your post #78 was interesting Pusaka, it is regrettable that David needed to remove the link to the original, but a link like that does break the rules.

However I used the link before it was removed, and I found that it linked to an arts & crafts shop in Jogja that I know quite well, it has been in operation for years. It is very nicely set up for tourists from outside Central Jawa. The info they have on the page you linked to is interesting and would possibly act as a nice little primer for a new comer to the keris.

I read the original text in Bahasa Indonesia, and your translation is near enough, at least it demonstrates that in spite of my statement in my post # 70 that wintergreen oil is :-

"--- most definitely not a component of any keris oil that follows a traditional Javanese combination of oils.---"

it can in fact be found in some mixtures of keris oil.

My statement was incorrect, I did not know that minyak gondopuro was wintergreen oil.

Minyak gondopuro is a common oil, but even so, it is not now an oil that I have heard of as a component of keris oils --- and I have heard of a lot of different mixtures, oils used on Karaton Surakarta tosanaji, and otherwise. Perhaps it should be used, if it prevents coconut oil going rancid.

The idea stated that unnatural oils can interfere with the "esoteri" qualities of a keris is not unusual. The word "esoteri" is a corruption of the relatively recent loan word from English to BI of "esoteric". In BI "esoteric" means exactly the same as it does in English, that is:-

" restricted to or intended for an enlightened or initiated minority",

and just as in English it is sometimes colloquially used to mean something that is associated with the hidden world.

When we read something like this, I believe most people would form the opinion that in the context of the keris, substances other than "natural" substances should not come into contact with a keris, and in the case of oil, mineral oil, being an "unnatural" oil, should not be used on a keris.

I have encountered this idea numerous times in Jawa, usually amongst the fringe dwellers of the Keris World, but respected authorities have also put forward this point of view. The people to whom I owe most of my knowledge did not subscribe to this point of view, and neither do I. Personally, I feel that such a point of view demonstrates a very poor understanding of the spiritual qualities of some keris.

However, that said, we must acknowledge that any spiritual or mystical qualities that a keris might perhaps possess are due entirely to the interaction between that keris and a human being, and if the human being is not at peace in his mind because he has not used the correct oil on his keris, then that interaction is subject to interference. The spiritual qualities that a keris might possess cannot exist in the absence of human input, if that human input is of a disturbed nature, then the reaction from the keris will be perceived to be similarly disrupted.

There are a number of keris belief systems, just as there are a number of religions, the beliefs of one person need not necessarily be the beliefs of another, we usually choose a belief system that we find agreeable to our own pre-existing ideas.

If this can be accepted, I suggest that those who find the idea of anointing a keris with other than a "natural" oil to be something that verges on Mortal Sin, then those people should immediately cease the use of any oil that might be able to be considered "unnatural".

We cannot be too careful with these matters of "esoteri".