Good news /bad news Tulwar.

[Pukka Bundook]

Well my Tulwar arrived today,
Very much good/bad news!
I'd purchased it privately after seeing photos
What Didn't show in the pics, and seller failed to tell me, was that a previous owner had for some reason run all over the blade with an angle-grinder, or grind- wheel!
I took some pics & will add them tomorrow.
The seller Did say it had ; "Been way over-cleaned and sharpened" but this is serious gouging with the grinder!
Blade is hard, and a file won't touch it (Wouldn't have tried the file if it wasn't alredy ruined!!)

Has about a 5" false edge at tip, this seems short?
In the grinding frenzy it May have lost an inch of tip, but by what remains of the scabbard, no more than an inch.
The grinding may have occured trying to remove some percussion damage 2/3 of the way up the blade, as some old damage still remains.

On the positive side, it has remains of silver coft-gari on the hilt ...not much, but some...
First thought was chuck it back at seller, but as he's in another country, this too is costly.
Second thought was ,.."OK this is a mess and ruined!!........Good challenge to put it right...Good opportunity to mess with a blade without de-valuing it!!"

Esteemed company, I seek your input!

[G. McCormack]

Sounds like a good project for you! Lets see some pictures. If its as bad as it sounds, I'd guess you'd be well served by removing the blade from the hilt and polishing it completely, starting with some pretty rough paper.

[Pukka Bundook]

Here are the pictures:

[Rick]

IMO the point has been reground; yelman seems too short.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I have a tulwar with a yelman of the same size, but i will write mort to morrow.

[katana]

A belt sander may be a good idea to remove most of the deep scratches, but used lightly....it is too easy to get 'carried away' and remove too much metal. Once the worse scratches are removed, I would recommend coarse 'wet and dry' abrasive paper used with light mineral oil or WD40, progressively using finer grades.
It may be a good idea to give the blade an 'etch' before you reach the final 'sanding ' to see if you have an interesting pattern in the blade :) From there you could decide whether to polish or smooth the blade a little more and then re-etch. my 0.02 cents worth.

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you for the input everyone, and advice of how to go about it.

There may be one or two areas where I can't remove the grind-marks properly, where the grinder did some open-cast mining whilst removing pits!

Correction;
A file will touch it, but only with plenty of pressure behind it, or it will skid.

I think this blade may have been in a seriouse conflict at some time,as about 9" of the blade in the 'sweet spot' is rather badly damaged with nicks, in fact the sharp edge is more-or-less missing in this area.

Q.;- If I'm smoothing out the blade, should I leave the damaged section as a 'flat spot' or should I recontour the blade a bit to make the damaged portion blend in somewhat??

It's good to have such a learned group as this to seek advice from!!
Thanks again,
R.

[katana]

Q.;- If I'm smoothing out the blade, should I leave the damaged section as a 'flat spot' or should I recontour the blade a bit to make the damaged portion blend in somewhat??


R.


I think, most would agree, that this is down to personal taste. The concern is that by 'removing' the damaged area you could change the blade profile and the curve will not be as uniform as it once was. If the re-profiling would not cause this problem...then I personally.. would do it ...leaving some of the damage (it is , afterall, part of its history).
If the sword was still in constant use, an armourer would have the blade reground with a 'new' edge......especially around a damaged 'sweet spot'....afterall it would lose its cutting abilities if this area was blunt. I think the compromise, you suggested ... re-contour the blade a bit....sounds good to me.

[ward]

leave the belt sander for the floor not the sword. you will end up with grooves in the metal

[Gt Obach]

Hi PB
- the blade still looks ok... but i'd stay away from the powertools..
-remove the blade from the hilt
- c-clamp it to a flat 4by4
- get abrasive Al/oxide papers from 120,220,320,400, 600 .. and not the cheep stuff
- get a very flat piece of flat stock steel... maybe 3/16 thick, by 2 inch wide by 6 to 8 inch long.... and use this as a sand block for the papers..

any deep divots... do it by hand .... if your fingers can't handle it.. then use a soft puffy rag between the Al/ox paper and your bar... it works aswell

take your time and maintain the original thought of the smith... concerning blade profile and such..

its a dirty, tedious, and repetitive task ... but i bet you'll have a good bond with this blade when your done ;)

Greg

[katana]

leave the belt sander for the floor not the sword. you will end up with grooves in the metal

Belt sanders are used by a number of cutlers after the rough shaping (using a grinder) . I suppose if you are familiar with the use of power tools ...then generally it would not be a problem. Belt sanders are available in different widths and can be used for 'finer' work. If you use the finer grades of abrasive paper gouging is not usually a problem....
The suggestion to use such a tool, was to remove the deepest scratches only.

The blade removal is a good idea, and has been discussed before...in case you missed it .....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3800

Pukka Bundook what ever you choose to do....please let us know how you get on....All the best

David

[Pukka Bundook]

Greg,
You're dead right there!.....about developing quite a bond by time it's done!!

Thanks for advice.

David,
I'll keep you posted on progress.

Started on it this morn, snow was wet yesterday, and my brakes were frozen up on my cow-feeding truck, so did a bit whilst day warmed up!

Took off hilt, clamped it down and got at it.

Wouldn't be so bad if "whoever" hadnt gouged in here and there with grinder, to remove pits....

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sorry, I promised to write about the back edge on my tulwar, but did not – here it comes. The back edge on one of my tulwars is 15 cm – roughly 6”.

I agree that the blade is in a bad shape, but ‘endless’ hours of hard handwork will pay off – and soon be forgotten:). The ‘before and after’ picture shows that it can be done, but I agree that you have a ‘blade’ in much worse shape to work on than I had. Good luck.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Richard,
I agree with the excellent advice given here so far, keep away from power tools and as Jens has said, some time and elbow grease will present its own rewards. As always, I think this old warrior deserves to be saved, and admire those who will take the time and effort to do so (beautifully done on your blade by the way Jens!!).

All the damage has been done to this poor sword, so here is an excellent opportunity to learn from some barbarians travesty of ignorance...good grief! Give a moron a grinding wheel !! Grrrr!!!

All best wishes for your project, please keep us posted OK :)

Best regards,
jim

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
you did a lovely job on your blade, Congratulations!

Jim,
Thanks for the encouragement!!.......I can come back and read it now and again when mi arms feel like they're falling off with sanding!!

It's looking a bit better already, with a few deep holes resisting my efforts up to now!

[Pukka Bundook]

This is the cleaned up blade so far.
On some pictures, you see there is still a 'flat' area, where percussion damage had occured.
Do you think I should take a little more off the good areas of the blade, to help the damaged portion blend in better?
Thank you for any input!

Richard.

[FenrisWolf]

I'd say there's a major difference between damage inflicted by Bubba with a power grinder and damage that may have been honorably earned in battle. True, the damage may have occured when Bubba hacked at a tree, but if you can't tell the difference I'd leave it alone.

About the only other thing it might need would be an etching bath to see if there's any layering visible in the blade. It would also help reduce that 'fresh polished' look that is the downside of repairing the damage caused by Bubba. :D

[Jens Nordlunde]

You have done a very, very good job - congratulation.

Jens

[katana]

Hi Richard,
I have to agree with the idea of an etch, good job :) you must NOW have arms like this :D :D :p ......

[Battara]

Very impressive work! :)

[Gt Obach]

very good
i'd leave it the way it is... in terms of shape...
- but.. i'd clean the fullers up..... get a wooden dowel.... shape it to fit the fuller.... ( sort of a push stick) then wrap some abrasive cloth around the tip and push it .... ... push it real good.. ;)
--
-like the chiseling on it

remember towards the end of the job to work on the edge... get it nice n sharp ... thats the tricky part when they like to bite

Greg

[Rick]

Unless this blade is wootz IMO don't etch it; the patterns of tulwars are seldom particularly impressive when etched and I don't believe that your average pattern welded tulwar within the culture was originally etched for aesthetics.

Just an opinion; YMMV*. :shrug:

*(your mileage may vary) ;)

[Andrew]

Well done! I wish I had the skill and patience to do the job. :o

[Pukka Bundook]

Well, I thank you all for your feedback! I greatly appreciate it.

By general consensus, it would appear I should leave blade shape as is.

Maybe try an etch, but if nothing startling shows up, leave it bright.

Gt Obach,
You mention cleaning up fullers.
I had left them at the moment, as i was unsure wether to do them or not, as they do show some age, and this is a sort of 'evidence' that the blade isn't a new one.
Thank you for the advice.
Re. sharpening, if so, Should I sharpen the damaged area, or leave the chips showing?
(I'd think leave the chips in the blade, but seek wiser feed-back!)

Thank you all again for your contributions!

All the best,
Richard.

PS, Can anyone tell me what the little circle of dots on the yelman mean??
Thanks!

[Gt Obach]

Hi Richard
Its up to you if you want to leave the fullers

if you bring it up to 600 grit... with fresh papers.. have a strong light shine down on the flat of the blade..... get your eyes close the the blade and you should be able to see if its patternweld or wootz blade... its very subtle but there.... unless you burnish the blade by overloading your sand paper with grindings..

for me.... i'd polish out the chips... as they could be starting points for cracks in the blade if you use it for cutting... but if you don't use it for cutting... then leave them

a truly sharp sword has a certain magic...

Greg

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Richard,

When I write that I am studying the decorations, then I mean, that I do 'scratch the stone' on and off, when nothing else distracts me. One of the problems, and that is a big one, is to make sure which flower shown on the hilts represents which flower – as the artistic touch can be rather big. With some of the flowers I only have a hunch, with others I know what they are, but I would like to know more about it.

Years ago I did not bother much with the bibliography in a book, but it is different now as I read the forward, the bibliography, skim the book – and decide if it is a book I would like to have. If you don't do it already, try it, and you will learn much about the book by reading the bibliography and skimming the book. I would really be surprised if you don't like Robert's book, and few books are written about south Indian weapons – so if you collect Indian arms, it is a must, and if you buy the book, don't skip the notes they are very valuable.

I find the decoration close to the hilt strange, but I find the decoration at the yelman even stranger, is it on both sides? Is it possible for you to take close ups of both decorations?

[Battara]

With all due respect I may add a different perspective to the etching question. I would look very closely at the blade to see if any pattern is there. Perhaps you could etch a small section, a "window" as they say in the Nihonto collecting terms. If there is a pattern, I would etch it. If not, don't bother with the rest of it.

[Pukka Bundook]

GT,
thank you again for direction re.fullers, etc!

Jens,
I will try and take pictures of both areas ASAP.
Yes, the marks on yelman are on both sides, little circle of dots with one roughly in the centre.
They look like they were punched in with a graver, as the marks are triangular.
The engraving on the ricasso end is filled with a red dye of some sort,
Is this usual?
Don't know what it is exactly, but it has stood the polishing down and is still present!

Battara,
You anticipated my thoughts!........try a bit with an etch & see what shows, if not much, don't bother!

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
Here are the close-ups of ricasso & yelman.
Hope this helps!

Richard

[ariel]

I have to admit: you did a much, much better job on it that I thought would be imaginable! My hat is off to you!
I have a crow to eat for today's supper :o :o :o :o

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for showing the details – excellent pictures.

The decoration at the top of the blade is strange, I can't recall to have seen one like it before, and can't offer any suggestions. The dotted circle with a dot in the middle is another puzzle. It reminds me of the flower on the kora blades, but I don't know if it represents the same, and if it does, one must really say that it is very stylized. I hope someone else on the forum can help with informations. On the weapons I have with dot markings most of the dots are triangle as well, which must be due to the form of the tool used.

[Pukka Bundook]

Ariel,
I'm pleased you think it looks better!
Up to now I haven't been intelligent enough to withstand a challenge like this,...May get smarter one day!

Jens,
Thank you for taking interest in the marks. Some idea of what they mean may come to light one day.
All very interesting!

[ariel]

Ariel,
I'm pleased you think it looks better!
Up to now I haven't been intelligent enough to withstand a challenge like this,...May get smarter one day!

Jens,
Thank you for taking interest in the marks. Some idea of what they mean may come to light one day.
All very interesting!
I never thought it would look that good. it was a priceless experience for you and a lesson for me.
And, of course, the blade finally got what it deserved.
Again, my hat is off to you!

[Pukka Bundook]

Ariel,
I couldn't agree more, ....about it being a priceless experience!
After all, how often can we mess about with an old blade without damaging it??
Really was a wondeful opportunity.

When I get done with this, then there is the question of the scabbard!!
Half upper wood is missing, but midle carrier and long metal cover on lower half intact.
Will be asking for input on wether to fix, leave alone, make new one, or whatever,....but not under this heading!
Thank you again for your kind words,

Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

If the scabbard belongs to the blade, and you say it does, then I see no reason why you cant show it here.
When you cleaned the blade, you removed the hilt, was the reason that it would be easier to clean the blade, or someting else?
In your mail #3 second picture it is easy to see that there is a little square plate nailed to the square of the hilt. Usually, if there is anything, it is a little silver flower nailed to the square, what is your little plate made of - iron?
Did the nail go through the blade?

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
Yes, The scabbard goes with this sword.
I will take some pictures and post them here as you suggest.

Re. the hilt, I removed it so I could clamp the blade down easier for the serious filing it required.
The little squares nailed to the square were very thin pieces of silver, and yes, the nail did go through the tang.
When I put the hilt back I thought of putting a little silver flower there.
Would this be wrong?
One of the little pieces of badly cut silver split when I was removing the nail.
The hilt may have been removed before when the broken knuckle-guard had been repaired in its working life.
Hopefully, I'll be able to post scabbard pics very soon!

Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard,

I would put a silver flower where the plate was. It seems to me, that silver placed on the square of the hilt must have had a special meaning. If there is something, it is a silver flower with a diameter of 10-12 millimeters, and the fact that there was a silver square on yours could, like you write, mean that the hilt could have been taken off for some reason or other. They may have run out of silver flowers;), and used a little silver plate instead, but why a silver plate and not a little iron plate?

I know that someone on the forum has a tulwar with such a silver flower, but I don't remember where I have seen it – please show it and give the measures.

The blade seems to have a very long ricasso – how long is it?

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
Thank you for the suggestions re. the little silver flower.
It is a pity that we cannot find someone who remembers the reason for silver on the square!
Re. the ricasso, it is 3 3/4".......or about 96mm in length.

Best wishes,
R.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard,

That is quite a ricasso. On my tulwars the ricasso is 15-75 mm, and some of the blades does not have a ricasso, even the Indian made ones.

I will try to concentrate on the silver flower:), and see what I can find out.

Jens

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
I was unaware that the ricasso on this tulwar was unusually long.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

The fullers on the 'off side of the blade go right up to the hilt, yet on the right hand side end well back.
Was this to allow room for the owner to add his personal mark, or "doodlings"
Such as we see in this case?
(Obviously these 'scratchings are not professionaly done!)

Any information you could 'dig up' re. the flower would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks again,
R.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard,

The blade is Indian, not European, and what you write about the fullers is really interesting, as this means that the 'doodlings' were planed before the blade was made, or the fullers would, no doubt, have been of the same length. If you plan a decoration like that, before or when the blade is being made, this decoration must have been important to the owner.

Yes, I will let you know, when I know more about the floral decoration.

Jens

[Pukka Bundook]

Here are some pictures of the broken scabbard. Any suggestions regarding mending this, making new wood and a top fitting to match?
Any other suggestions?

Jens, would this little flower be OK?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hmm, well Richard, the scabbard seems a bit short for the tulwar, and I won't suggest that it was intended – like a faster draw, or something like that. I suggest that you find someone who can make a nice new scabbard. There are some in the US who does these things nicely, and I think there are one or two at least in Canada as well, but make sure that the red cloth under the mounts is kept as it is. Any problems finding someone try to yell on the forum, if it does not help let me know.

Yes I think a flower like that will do nicely – did you make it yourself?

[B.I]

Outstanding job, Richard. You seem to be pretty unstoppable!!
You can only admire/pity/envy someone who has no concept of how hard something is to do, and so just bowls in head first :)
This is the style of flower Jens mentioned, on a worn hilt. Yours is pretty damn close!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi B.I,
Thanks for showing the flower. Yes the flower chosen is close and will look nice on the hilt:).

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
NO no, the scabbard's the right lenth,...... On one side anyway!!........It's just that the 'outside' has been broken off level with the centre fitting.
If you think it needs new wood, I could make it, and fix it up with the old fittings, plus it needs an upper fitting making.
Didn't know wether I should just add new wood to the broken parts.

The red under the fittings is something like very thin copper sheet, The inside looks a copper colour, yet the outside seen through the holes in fittings, is a bright red. Not sure what it is.....Doesn't appear painted on.

Yes, I made the little flowers, I had a bit of silver sheet.

BI,
thank you for posting pictures of the wee flower, might alter mine a bit to look more like this one!

Does anyone have a photo of an upper fitting, to show me where it sits, etc?
Looks to me that it would have to be below the langets?

Thank you again!
R.

[B.I]

Hi Richard,
Attached is a top scabbard mount. I dont suppose its worth saying it would be very hard to make?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Greg, Jeff, or anyone else, can you give me an estimated of the amount of steel removed from Richard's blade?

If blades were sharpened, or cleaned through the time, as they must have been, why does some collectors pay so much attention to the POB (point of ballance)?

It seems to me, that the POB of any sword, can have changed quite a lot during the life of the sword, so why the big interest, not to say anything about the change of a hilt. Any comments would be apreasiated.

[Tim Simmons]

Not difficult to make just expensive :( . In Europe and America should I say.

[Jens Nordlunde]

What are you reffering to Tim?

[Tim Simmons]

I could make one but the cost would be pretty much the same as a good sword.

[Jens Nordlunde]

What do you mean Tim?

[Tim Simmons]

sorry Jens, I am talking about a scabbard top replacement and trying to match the old metalwork.

[Pukka Bundook]

Brian,
Thanks for the picture!
Yes, to me it looks a bit of a challenge!..........but there goes that word again,...Challenge!
Challenges have to be met,...Don'cha know?

The scabbard I have has a ring on the middle fitting, so suppose it would also have one on the upper?

Jens,
I believe Tim is referring to the cost of making the upper fitting for the scabbard.

Re. how much metal removed, don't know. More sweat than metal i think!

Tim,
I see what you mean, but in my book I equate difficult and expensive together!.......as in, if it's easy to make, any daft --- can make one, so it should be cheap! Whereas if it's a bit harder to make, then Hmmm,.......it's gonn'a cost you! :) :)

Sorry for answering Jen's question to you Tim, Your post came up while I was answering mine!

[Jim McDougall]

I have just caught up on this very interesting thread, and Richard, I can only say you have done an unbelievably remarkable job at saving this well worn and terribly maimed warrior. How lucky this sword was that you were the one who took it in!! :)
In looking at the later entries where you have included the scabbard, which you indicate is apparantly original to the sword, I wanted to include some important information. This scabbard form, with the long fluted chape piece in iron, as well as pierced iron mounts, is of the form associated with Afghan swords. I have seen examples of Afghan shashka with scabbards of this form and it seems that paluoars often have these type scabbards as well.

It is known of course that weapons such as the tulwar of course diffused from the Northwest Frontier into Afghan regions, and this may be one which followed that course. Many of the weapons in Afghan regions, just as in the Mughal sphere, reflected profound Persian influence. It is interesting to note that the tulwar hilt on this example has unusual flueret style quillon terminals that correspond somewhat to the hilt form shown in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour" p.115) and which the author has curiously labeled the 'purbi' or 'purbiya' hilt (=Eastern, as he claims these derive from Eastern India).
These sharply stylized fleuret type terminals seem distinctly Mughal as they are seen as well on some Mysori hilts, and it would be extremely difficult to assign them to a specific region, or to designate the hilt form with a term such as applied in Pant. It does seem key that the tulwar itself seems to carry Mughal associated form and appears to have been scabbarded by most probably armourers in Afghan regions.

A classic example of a well worthy weapon with some apparantly fascinating history that was all but destined for the scrap heap due to the thoughtless vandalization of some misguided 'person' .....and wonderfully saved by the perseverence of an empassioned collector!! Well done Richard!!!! :)

Some very good points brought up by Jens as well on these extremely worked on blades, often reprofiled and excessively sharpened, and in this case where a good portion of the blade at the tip appears to be missing....that this may indeed affect the POB of the blade. Regardless of that, the appearance of the blade as it stands now is excellent!

All very best regards,
Jim

[Pukka Bundook]

Jim,
Thank you for the lengthy and detailed reply, and for all the information re. this sword and scabbard!
Thank you again!!

So it appears this sword has a Moghul style hilt, and was scabbarded in the Afghan region?, How fascinating!
I suppose it could have gone through a scabbard or two in its working life, each one possibly distinct according to where circumstance placed it at the time.
Re. the blade tip, It could have lost about an inch, but not much more, unless the present scabbard was made after it had lost the tip.

Interesting thing about the scabbard, it appears to have been made for a left-handed person, as the middle fitting had the longer decorative side on the 'wrong' side. The wood also shows that this is the way it has always been, as it has a pale area where the decoration sat.
Also, the material covering the scabbard is overlapped and glued down what would normally be the 'out' side.

Would it be possible to hazard a guess as to the age of this sword?

Would be most indebted if you could!!

Thanks again for all your help,
Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Richard,

You are very observant to notice that the owner seems to have been left handed, very good observation, as I am sure several missed it – like I did. The flower on the square looks very nice.

Jim's comments on the scabbard mounts are good, and give an indication of, from where the sword origins. I once had an Afghan pulouar and the scabbard mounts were like the ones on you scabbard, but they were not pierced.

Jens

[Gt Obach]

i think the steel removed from this blade was minimal... it was in good shape before sanding.. ... now a blade with deep pitts needing a total regrind..... may loose much more metal and may shift the balance point... ..

as for the importance of the balance point..... i'm not a swordsman... so take this with a grain of salt... i find a blade with a balance point closer to the hand is quicker and more gives good control.... this is why a decent fighting knife will have a nice distal taper.. it'll have a quick tip

G

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
I'll keep you up to date when I get to making the wood scabbard and top fitting, but it may take me a while to get at it!.....lots on my plate already.

Greg,
I agree that lightening the blade a bit moves POB back a bit and makes it faster, Only down-side could be it might not cut as strong. (less weight behind the stroke)........But then again, if it can be swung faster, this maybe compensates?

[Jens Nordlunde]

I just had a look in Damascening on Steel and Iron, as Practised in India, London 1892, by T. H. Hendley. In the book he shows a flower on top of the disc, looking very much like the one on your tulwar. He writes that the hilt is from Punjab, NW India at the time, and the scabbard mounts are NW Indian/Afghan – so it all seems to fit together.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Jens!!!:)
It really is amazing when all the pieces fit! Looks like this old warrior might have seen service in the Khyber. Now theres a piece of history, and very plausibly connected to the colorful times in those regions associated with the British Raj.
All the best,
Jim

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,
Thank you for the information!
It all seems to fit together now, and seems very logical.
Very interesting Re. the flower on the disc, wonderful to know, Thank you again!!

Re. the book on damascening you mention, I found a copy straight away, In Germany, but didn't buy it..........Seller wanted $5000 and odd dollars for it!

Jim,
Isn't it exciting when things all come together, and we at last can know with a fair degree of certainty where a piece came from?
.........and this one appears to come from an area with quite a bit of history!
Very fascinating!
Am glad now I didn't just dump it in disgust when I first saw it!
Will be happy when it can sit in its own restored scabbard. I think they both deserve a bit of peace.