A Berber saber?

[FenrisWolf]

Just picked this up on ebay; listed as a Nimcha, I believe it's a Berber saber. It doesn't have the pierced pommel I've seen in some illustrations, but that could be a tribal difference. Is anyone familiar with this particular style of hilt? The blade is almost certainly European, though apparently has no markings (at least none were mentioned by the seller).

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151/1556826/14935634/229417275.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151/1556826/14935634/229417280.jpg

[Tim Simmons]

This could be SEA? shame there is no scabbard.

[FenrisWolf]

This could be SEA? shame there is no scabbard.
SEA? As in South East Asia? The wire wrap is reminiscent of a Bousaadi knife, but I know that's not unique, as many curltures use the same method...

[Tim Simmons]

I am probably wrong but this just struck me as South East Asian rather than North African. Something about the way the forte is ground with a curve and the whole curve of the weapon, handle decoration and shape. Just a feeling. A scabbard would help. :shrug:

[carlos]

I THINK IS FROM SOUTH ASIA TOO, WHEN I SAW THE SWORD IN EBAY WAS THE FIRST I THOUGT. THE BLADE SEEMS LIKE IT WAS PART OF A MILITARY SABER?
REGARDS
CARLOS

[Rick]

A Berber sabre; the blade looks ex military to me.
There is the feel of a Nimcha hilt there and the square and nail work doesn't quite strike me as S.E.A. :shrug:

[ariel]

Berber swords are classically characterised by 2 features:
1. pierced handle
2. reverse tip
Like that:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=91
Sometimes, one feature may be different, but when both are absent, I would look for the origin of this sword somewhere else.

[Tim Simmons]

Groovy pics. This is getting interesting. I still say the handle is not N African, the decoration is also far from N. African. Just look at how dramatic the curve is at the forte. I would also say that by N. African swords this has a rather primitive or even what could be seen as crude construction and decoration. I hope that does not upset anyone. The decoration looks like the far eastern islands of Indonesia to me.

[Joe]

Hmmm, does anybody know where checkerboard patterns were used as decorations on sword handles? That may provide a clue.

Btw, these two are owned by Adam Rose. One has a regular tip, and the other has a very slight concave tip.

[Rick]

I'm not saying that this is a Berber sabre.
I only point out that this is most likely a military blade remounted a la my example of a Berber sabre .
I also mention a passing resemblance to the Nimcha style hilt.
That does not mean that it is a relation; only food for thought .

Finally, I would like to see examples of this style of checkerboard and nail inlaid decoration in a Indo/Malay sword hilt if anyone has seen one; for I have not. :rolleyes:

[FenrisWolf]

No luck on the hilt yet, but I did stumble across this version of a nimcha on the Therion Arms page. The blade is listed as 'napoleonic', and at 24 1/2" is identical in length to the one I just bought. Due to the poor angle in the pictures posted by the seller it's impossible to be sure, but it looks awfully close to me. Not also the slight humpback profile to the hilt, peraps due to the profile of the tang? Anyway, more food for thought.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151/1556826/15164847/229605778.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151/1556826/15164847/229605776.jpg

PS -- I hope I didn't violate any rules by posting these pics. I did give credit for their source, and the item in question was already sold.

[Tim Simmons]

This hilt is from A. G.Van Zonnevelds, Traditional weapons of The Indonesian Archipelago. Okay it is not the same shape but does show the same decorative materials and technique. One could also argue that the shape is as similar as the Nimcha. In the aforementioned book swords from Timor like the hilt shown often had European blades. Also in this book pictures of other swords from Timor are all constructed in this more simple manner. I am sure I have some better pictures which I will add when I find then. I also want to add some pictures to the rust removal thread but can a find them :mad: Maybe if I stop look so hard i will find what I want right in front of my eyes.

[Flavio]

Hi all! me too i was looking at this beauty (congratulations Fenris!! :) ) and i was thinking that is a north african sword. Maybe i'm wrong but the decoration on the handle remember me some decorations on maroccan or north african matchlock guns.

My twoo cents...

[Jim McDougall]

I am in accord with Rick on this one, I also believe this to be most likely from Spanish regions in Morocco, and as he notes the blade is military. The blade appears to be a British M1796 light cavalry example as occur in use on the 'Berber' sabres also being shown in the posts here. Although these interesting sabres have generally been accepted as Berber and probably from Moroccan regions, there is some disagreement to that attribution. These typically occur with the M1796 blades, which are typically highly profiled at the tip, although other sabre blades have been seen and not all carry the dramatic profiling. I remain inclined to believe they are indeed from Spanish Morocco.

I think this interesting variant posted by Fenris reflects traditional Mudejar influence in the studded checkerboard motif, though as noted, this motif does seem atypical on weapons of these regions. It seems of course that I have seen something similar, but as yet have not located it. In "Southwestern Colonial Ironwork" (Simmons & Turley, N.M.1980, p.5), the authors note ornamental nail heads or bosses (=chatones) liberally applied to doors and chest, and that the "...Moorish distaste for empty space", "...led them to fill large door panels with symmetrical placings of decorative nail heads". Although this characteristic describes quite early application of this motif in medieval Andulusia, the style of course carried into the Spanish regions in Morocco and is reflected in degree in the material culture there.

The wire wrap on the grip of course reflects that practice on the sword hilts of Arabia and India, deriving from the same often applied on Persian shamshirs. The knives of Bou Saada adopted that characteristic in the same manner as appears on this sabre ( the term nimcha of course colloquially presumed), through trade influences as that was in important stop in Algeria on caravan routes.

The curved profile of the blade root to meet the ferrule of the grip is much the same as on the 'Berber' sabres.

The inclination that often brings the recollection of SEA probability in many of these weapons from North Africa I think derives from the fact that many of the influences on those weapons also derive from Arab trade, that of course carried in degree many Moorish features. That is of course even more prevalent in Philippine regions which were colonized by Spain, and those influences certainly diffused in the environs through trade, warfare and varied interaction.

I hope somebody can find an example of the 'checkerboard' mofif elsewhere, its drivin' me nuts trying to find the example I saw!!:)

All the best,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

So far it is 4-1 that are still a different shape and do not display decoration, construction and forte arrangement similar to the starting piece. To me we need pictures of other examples to be sure of any opinion.

[Jim McDougall]

Exactly right Tim, all we have thus far is opinions without corroborating examples of hilt form or motif form to firmly support any particular attribution. The material I presented simply is data used in basing my opinion, but the use of the British cavalry blade is quite compelling in corresponding this to the 'Berber' examples. The nail stud motif shown in the Indonesian example you have shown presents equally compelling data toward your suggestion.
Hopefully we will find that checkerboard motif someplace as that will be excellent for comparison! :)

Incidentally Fenris, that nimcha from Therion is indeed somewhat Napoleonic in that it is mounted with a French cavalry blade of Napoleonic period with its distinctly French Napoleonic scabbard. That, coupled with the persistant use of these French blades in the Sahara and the British cavalry blades on these sabres is typical of the instances we have discussed where the study of regulation military swords augments our study of ethnographic weapons.

Best regards,
Jim

[FenrisWolf]

Incidentally Fenris, that nimcha from Therion is indeed somewhat Napoleonic in that it is mounted with a French cavalry blade of Napoleonic period with its distinctly French Napoleonic scabbard. That, coupled with the persistant use of these French blades in the Sahara and the British cavalry blades on these sabres is typical of the instances we have discussed where the study of regulation military swords augments our study of ethnographic weapons.

Best regards,
JimThanks, Jim. As a relative newbie to being a serious collector (as opposed to just being a dabbler who bought whatever was "neat") I know I have a lot to learn. It's one of the reasons I've decided to focus on a much narrower geographic area for the majority of my attention.

As to the blending of European military and ethnic arms, well, weaponry doesn't develop in a vacuum, and seeing examples where native craftsmen have taken outsider's weapons (whether from an invader's hands or an importer's cart) and made them their own is just one more element to be considering in studying the evolution of weapons. For example, prior to joining this forum I was aware that wootz steel was prized, but had never heard that there were some European blades that were even moreso. It's kind of nice to be going back to school after all this time. :D

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fenris,
For being a relative 'newbie' to serious collecting, you have some excellent perspective on understanding weapon development! and you're very wise to focus on one area at a time. As far as 'going to school' , I don't really think one ever gets out of school as far as studying these weapons! :) Thats the fun, learning together.
Thank you for sharing your pieces for discussion, and giving us all the opportunity to learn from them, you're finding some really interesting examples.

All the best,
Jim

[FenrisWolf]

Sword just arrived; even, dark grey patina over entire blade, no deep pitting. Rounded, blunt point, razor sharp edge. Definitely intended as a slashing weapon only, but the short length would preclude horse or camelback. Shipboard, corsair weapon perhaps? Hilt is slightly loose, as is the wire wrap. There are some faint letters by the hilt on the left side of the blade:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151/1556826/15164847/230503780.jpg

Too faint to read, perhaps someone recognizes them?

I'll post more pics in a while....

[Tim Simmons]

Could your short sword be along these lines, picture from the book I mentioned earlier. I could post a picture a sword from roughly the same geographic area with the same construction of wrapped brass wire but as the general shape and decoration is different, maybe it is better to stick to examples where there is some similarity in form and decoration.

[FenrisWolf]

Could your short sword be along these lines, picture from the book I mentioned earlier.I think the similarity here is a matter of form following function. For one thing, the blade on mine is attached to the hilt with one or more rivets/pins, as opposed to the resin method that is more common in SE Asia. The pistol-grip curve to the hilt is simple ergonomics, especially since the hilt on my sword doesn't flare open in both directions as is common on SE Asian blades.

Aside from the checkerboard pattern, which no one has identified yet, the greatest similarity I've seen as far as overall execution has been the Bou-Saadi knives; a slot cut for the tang half the length of the hilt, pinned and bound with wire.

[FenrisWolf]

As promised:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151/1556826/15164847/230571598.jpg

The overall patina is a dark grey, with a few worn patches. The way the inlaid squares are worn into the surrounding wood makes me feel that it's not a recent construction, sometime in the mid to late 1800s perhaps?

[TVV]

I am with Tim on this one. SEA appears more likely, just the hilt with its brass (not silver) wire feels that way. I will add more reasons why I am leaning towards SEA soon.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems that many times when identifying ethnographic weapons, especially with variations and hybrids, it is often the inclination to head toward ones predominate field of study and to rationalize classification in that category.

While my inclination initially was toward a North African, specifically Spanish Saharan attribution on this weapon, I had not considered the suggestions of SEA possibility as this was largely outside my field of study.

In reconsidering, especially after review of the reference used by Tim ("Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago", A.Van Zonneveld, Leiden, 2001), I must revise my views on this piece to agree that this does not appear to be North African.

The key to the likely attribution of this weapon should be focused primarily on the hilt shape, rather than superficial decorative motif, and in reviewing the Van Zonneveld reference, there are numerous hilts throughout Indonesia which reflect distinct similarities to this one. In addition to referencing this book, Tim brought up some good points in the importance of considering materials and construction in examining this weapon, as well as the fact that in Timor, the nail motif occurred and foreign blades were often used.

While viewing various hilts in this book, although there were many extremely similar forms shown, one of the closest profiles I could see was a 'kabeala' from Sumba (p.59, fig.171). The wire wrap, agreeably a superficial element, especially in the case of refurbished weapons which could be applied in virtually any regional instance, can be seen illustrated in Sumatran examples (p.53). As mentioned, the nail motif as well as the geometric application seen in the Timor weapons present compelling interest when considering the checkerboard motif, despite the lack of examples with which to compare.

It is worthy of note that another of these 'checkerboard' motif hilts has been discovered, with the hilt remarkably similar aside from two notches at the top.
Hopefully we can get photos of that one as well, and continue research for other comparisons with emphasis on the Indonesian sphere.

All best regards,
Jim

[VANDOO]

THE CHECKERBOARD PATTERN IS PART OF THE KERIS CULTURE I FORGET WHAT THE SYMBOLISM IS BUT CLOTH WITH BLACK AND WHITE CHECKERED PATTERN IS USED AND DOES HAVE SOME MEANING. PERHAPS SOMEONE WHO IS MORE KNOWLEGABLE ON THE KERIS WILL BE ABLE TO COMMENT. A NICE LOOKING INTERESTING SWORD.

[katana]

Are the red 'squares' inlay ? It seems that (if they are) they are secured by the nails ??

Very nice, interesting sword.....I especially like the blade :)

[spiral]

Ive seen such geometric nailed inlay work on butts of Algerian /Morrocan rifles.

Usualy done in ivory sometimes bone.

Looking at picture the inlay looks like dyed bone?

Spiral

[spiral]

I Just noticed in another current sword ID thread,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4117

another fine example of the classic chequer booard pattern used in North Africa. {In this case amongst the leatherwork, on the lower wide piece.}

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=17912&stc=1


Spiral

[TVV]

A similar sword just ended on eBay. Note the leather sheath:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280081685620&rd=1&rd=1

[FenrisWolf]

A similar sword just ended on eBay. Note the leather sheath:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280081685620&rd=1&rd=1Yeah, I tried for the second one (it was sold by the same dealer as the first one; I asked, but they had no idea of the provenance on the swords.

What with the consensus leaning away from the Middle East and towards SE Asia, I couldn't bring myself to bid as heavily this time and someone else bought it. Hopefully someone who frequents this borad so we can see better pics.

[Tim Simmons]

Great stuff!! North African. The scabbard really states it without any question. Well done. I want one.

[Rick]

Now I shall perform the dance of vindication ..... :D
Thank you .... :p

[FenrisWolf]

Great stuff!! North African. The scabbard really states it without any question. Well done. I want one.
So, I let the one with the definitive evidence slip thru my fingers? @#$%$##@$%^@! :mad:

Just for my edification, what was it about the scabbard that convinced you as to its provenance? I didn't see anything that couldn't just as easily have been made in the Phillipines, or Mexico for that matter. :confused:

[Jim McDougall]

OK, Rick! "Land of a Thousand Dances"!! boogalooo!!! :)

Anyway, I'm way confused here. How is a loosely compared scabbard the key identifying factor in observing a weapon? While it is true that leather scabbards are key in North African weapons, we beg to ask what an Indonesian style hilt is doing in North Africa. Certainly we have always recognized the vast scope of trade and the diffusion of weapons via those routes, however within certain cultural spheres the locally preferred hilt forms prevail, and would not likely develop multipally.

I know that I was drawn initially to North Africa as well, but I had not yet considered Indonesia as the weapons in that sphere were basically outside my field of study.

The scabbard on the Manding sword is diagonally geometric rather than checkerboard, and such geometrics are clearly widely used in many cultural spheres, so this comparison while interesting, I would still consider inconclusive.

As always! More research to be done :)

All the best,
Jim

P.S. I wish these could turn out to be Berber! That would vindicate my original suggestion and prove this old radar of mine was still in working order, and I too would be dancin'!! :)

[Tim Simmons]

My praise might reflect that I had only been awake say 30mins. That is right that the scabbard does look as is it could well be from the PI or Mexico/South America. Perhaps it is not North African. I only know that many blades of several forms from North Africa come with this sort of scabbard with that flap bit. It is possible that the scabbard has been put with the sword it does look rather like a machete scabbard. Am I allowed to change my mind back to my original thoughts. An Iberian influence would not be out of place in Timor and there abouts :D .

[Rick]

Hi Jim, just funnin' :D .
I'm just pretty convinced these are not SEA. ;)

The scabbard does not look at all like SEA work or Philippine.
All the grommets used ?

[Jim McDougall]

Me too Rick!!! :)

That scabbard sure ain't SEA, but that hilt by the same token seems more and more Indonesian, and the hilt is the key here. We know the blade is probably British M1796, and the scabbard is ???? :confused: so we have to keep looking for a comparable hilt form, and most the examples that correspond seem to be in Van Zonneveld.

All the best,
Jim

[FenrisWolf]

In order to keep the reference handy (for when it drops out of ebay's system) here's the scabbard on the second sword, along with a closeup:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL151/1556826/15164847/231936055.jpg

Keep in mind this did NOT come with the sword that started this thread, but with a second example with a similar hilt.

[spiral]

The scabbard on the Manding sword is diagonally geometric rather than checkerboard, and such geometrics are clearly widely used in many cultural spheres, so this comparison while interesting, I would still consider inconclusive.

As always! More research to be done :)

:)

Good point Jim, Id missed that, perhaps in that case, we should look at the Dogon for a possible North African insperation to such cheqerboard designs though? whether by diffusian to surronding tribes or not?



To quote from.. http://www.uiowa.edu/~africart/toc/people/Dogon.html


"The Dogon are best known for their extensive carving of masks and wooden figurative art. The primary colors used by the Dogon are usually red, black, and white, and popular patterns include spirals and checkerboard motifs, both of which can be traced to their origin stories."

I assume these handles were intialy dyed red & black? that how it appears, to my eye?

The origin of this pattern in the region is reputadly from one of the 4 anscersters of the tribe.{The Nomo.}...

"Often depicted is the blacksmith Nommo, usually with a horse. He was the first to descend to earth in an ark or by means of a rainbow, bearing seeds and he laid out the first fields for agriculture. The chequer board patterns are associated with him and those fields"

from.

http://artworld.uea.ac.uk/teaching_modules/africa/cultural_groups_by_country/tellem_dogon/welcome.html

So that combined with The grip shape could be an evolution or hybrid of North African grips, Nimcha, Berber Saber, Bou Saadi. Would perhaps mean North Africa shouldnt be ruled out?

It certanly visualy would sit comfterably in a North African weapons collection.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

I see that is a belt loop on the scabbard not a flap, The stitching and leather work does not seem to me to be native to N. Africa. I see a Spanish/Portuguese machete style. Spanish Morroco? I do not think the Iberian influence in SE Asia can be ruled out either. It does still not fit a nimcha just as much as something from SE Asia.

[ariel]

The two notches on the handle of this one make it look very much like Nimcha's.
The first one was nebulous.
This one clinched the deal.

[spiral]

Fascinating to my mind that the front of the scabbard seems to carry the belt, strap or tie, holder? rather than the presuamably seamed rear, , has anyone seen other examples of this front belt hanger before? I canrt recall any, myself.In european or indeed any other designs? {Althoughf of course it is a similar front affixing the loops & buttons serve on traditional kukri.. but I digress.}

Spiral

[ariel]

Fascinating to my mind that the front of the scabbard seems to carry the belt, strap or tie, holder? rather than the presuamably seamed rear, , has anyone seen other examples of this front belt hanger before? I canrt recall any, myself.In european or indeed any other designs? {Althoughf of course it is a similar front affixing the loops & buttons serve on traditional kukri.. but I digress.}

Spiral
Not necessarily: it could have been worn shashka-style: edge up. My Bedouin " shashkas", however, are : one with a baldrick arragement and another with a kind of leather ring around the scabbard ( wear it any way you choose...)
Artzi is the person whose brain should be picked. He forgot more about Middle Eastern weapons than all of us remember.

[spiral]

Not necessarily: it could have been worn shashka-style: edge up. .


My point was rather it was unlikely that the decoration was on the rear of the scabbard & the seam on the front?

That would remain the same whether worn edge up or down, I would imagine?

Spiral

[FenrisWolf]

My point was rather it was unlikely that the decoration was on the rear of the scabbard & the seam on the front?

That would remain the same whether worn edge up or down, I would imagine?

SpiralWorn edge up for right hand draw, with the belt passing over the scabbard and through the loop. That would match the stain/wear pattern that's visible. Having the scabbard held in place by the belt, rather than merely being supported by it, is actually quite common in the middle east, though I believe it's seen more often with daggers than swords.

[Valjhun]

Ehm... Here come its bigger twin with scabbard.
Sea? NO WAY. Just a beautiful example of a nimcha from maghrib, not typical without its guard, which in fact was never mounted on that sword.

Blade is heavy and locally made. The smith tried to make a copy of an european blade, I think.

FernisWolf, any chance you want a divorce from your sword?

[TVV]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but here is an eBay auction, which ended today for a similar item:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310100107978&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBUAA:US:1123

The question is - Central America or Northern Africa? I find myself leaning towards Central America.

Regards,

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely no need to apologize for follow up on an intriguing and ongoing investigation Teodor! and nicely done comparison. In the earliest years these 'Berber' sabres started turning up, I was satisfied with that identification. In later years, questions arose, some of these turned up in 19th century to early 20th c. Mexican sword groupings.
In review of the catalog of the collection of the late Charles Buttin (Rumilly,1933) which is intensely comprehensive, especially in weapons from Morocco, where he lived for many years, reveal no examples of this sword type. In other works by him, these are noticeably absent. In related discussions with other figures involved in study on the arms of Morocco and the Maghreb overall, the opinion that these curious sabres were not Moroccan seemed to prevail.
Other resources which include the weapons of the Maghreb and North Africa overall also have no examples of these sabres present, although later, the book by Anthony Tirri does show them as Moroccan ("Islamic Weapons: Maghreb to Moghul", 2003). In this book, these are shown as 19th century from southwestern Morocco in the Spanish Sahara (p.26) but no supporting data or reference is included.

I'm inclined to agree Teodor that these may well have Central American, or perhaps even Cuban or Philippines origins, and as with certain other instances, may have become souveniers from Spanish American War period.

All best regards,
Jim

P.S. one thing that always got my interest is the distinctly profiled blade tip on many of these (often British M1796 cavalry sabre blades) in my view reminds me of the blade tips on many kampilan. Admittedly free association, but curious just the same.

[FenrisWolf]

Absolutely no need to apologize for follow up on an intriguing and ongoing investigation Teodor! and nicely done comparison.
Other resources which include the weapons of the Maghreb and North Africa overall also have no examples of these sabres present, although later, the book by Anthony Tirri does show them as Moroccan ("Islamic Weapons: Maghreb to Moghul", 2003). In this book, these are shown as 19th century from southwestern Morocco in the Spanish Sahara (p.26) but no supporting data or reference is included.

I'm inclined to agree Teodor that these may well have Central American, or perhaps even Cuban or Philippines origins, and as with certain other instances, may have become souveniers from Spanish American War period.

P.S. one thing that always got my interest is the distinctly profiled blade tip on many of these (often British M1796 cavalry sabre blades) in my view reminds me of the blade tips on many kampilan. Admittedly free association, but curious just the same.

What I have looked at with these is not the blade or even the inlay on the hilt, but the manner in which the blade and hilt are joined.Tang fitted into notch cut 2/3 way thru hilt. secured with steel rivets followed with a wire binding. Apply those same parameters to knives coming out of the Sahara nd you get a match, one seen repeatedly on the Saharan version of a pocket knife. They are not Moroccan but I do believe they are of Saharan origin.

[TVV]

I am just uploading the auction pictures for future reference.

[Gonzalo G]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but here is an eBay auction, which ended today for a similar item:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310100107978&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBUAA:US:1123

The question is - Central America or Northern Africa? I find myself leaning towards Central America.

Regards,

Teodor

With all due respect, Teodor, there is not such that style of work in Central América.

I must say, also, that leather work from Mexico is easily distinguishable, so it can be discriminated from the leather work of other places.
Regards

Gonzalo

[TVV]

With all due respect, Teodor, there is not such that style of work in Central América.

I must say, also, that leather work from Mexico is easily distinguishable, so it can be discriminated from the leather work of other places.
Regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo, you know Central American weapons far better than I do and therefore I will take your word that the above examples are not Central American.
However, would that also include the Carribean islands? I have a so-called "berber" sabre with a characteristic P-shaped hilt and a motto on the blade saying "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos". Certainly not what one would expect on a Riffian sword, even if it used a trade blade. :shrug:

[Jim McDougall]

In reviewing examples and text in "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America" (Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain, 1972, p.78), I am increasingly convinced that these 'Berber sabres' are of a general form of 'machete' found in the Spanish Colonial sphere. These have been a mystery since they appeared well over a decade ago in collections, and classified as Berber, from Spanish Morocco.
I found it puzzling years later as more were found, and at times these were in Mexican collections. With the suggestion that they might be Philippine, we looked to surrounding regions as well.
These examples, as the one shown by Teodor, and earlier by Valjhun, have been considered possibly as far as Philippines for provenance, but it does seem that Caribbean, ports in Gulf of Mexico, and other areas of the 'Spanish Main', trade ports into Central and South America included may be possibilities. This may account also for the simple hilt form, to the more familiar type with lanyard type opening.

In Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain, one with similar hilt and a sabre blade, which appears cavalry sabre type with blade in spear point shape, is identified as of 19th century. It is shown with another that has the almost straight Collins & Co. (Hartford,Conn.) blade and similar hilt, who produced many machetes in latter 19th century (op.cit. p.78).

Many of the examples of these that I have seen have M1796 British light cavalry sabre blades, with the 'hatchet' tip curiously profiled into one with a point radiused down and around. This curious tip profile has always reminded me of the kampilan swords of the Philippines, and I have often wondered if there could be a connection. In considering the sphere we are considering for these weapons that of Spanish Colonial trade routes, it does seem plausible that the shape might reflect that influence, but this is simply an untested suggestion.

One of these I had was with the clearly recognized British M1796 blade, and near the forte stamped 'MANU..' probably a stamp from importer? and the scabbard of the style with perpandicular appendage, which seemed to be a hold for withdrawing the weapon. The hilt was profoundly decorated with inlay and seemed very decorative for a machete, which suggested a form that could have come from the Moroccan regions, also considered at outer perimiter of the Spanish sphere.

In earlier considerations, we often wondered why, if this was a Moroccan weapon of some presence, was it not included in weapons groupings of collections. Perhaps, this might have been a high grade example of the more pedestrian machete from colonial regions to the west? and as more of a 'tool' not included with familiar weaponry?

Just thoughts after rereading this interesting thread from some time ago, and really glad to keep the case open!

All the best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Gonzalo, you know Central American weapons far better than I do and therefore I will take your word that the above examples are not Central American.
However, would that also include the Carribean islands? I have a so-called "berber" sabre with a characteristic P-shaped hilt and a motto on the blade saying "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos". Certainly not what one would expect on a Riffian sword, even if it used a trade blade. :shrug:

No, Teodor, my statement does not include the Caribbean islands. I sometimes found very interesting african influences on the Caribbean weapons. The Guanabacoa machete, being a reglamentary weapon for the spanish army overseas, has very deep local influences over the form of the hilt, with a strong african flavour. The inscription on your saber´s blade suggests the possibility of a gift to the dominicanss. The Caribbean area of influence, of course, could include the coastal areas of Central América and Venezuela. But somehow, unless more research, I don´t feel personally this style of weapon as a continental american, but I can be wrong. Construction and decoration are the keys to ID this "Berber saber". How is your saber mounted on the hilt? Like this one? Do you have photos?
Regards

Gonzalo

[TVV]

How is your saber mounted on the hilt? Like this one? Do you have photos?
Regards

Gonzalo

Gonzalo,

Here is a link to the thread where my sword was discussed. I apologize for the poor quality of the pictures, but the motto is really faint and barely visible even when held in hand. If you look hard enough, you can discern part of it in one of the pictures:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4679&highlight=dominicanos

Best regards,
Teodor

[Gonzalo G]

I only recognize this form of hilt on your weapon, Teodor, but as berber. The construction is different from this other "berber" piece. It was intended as a full tang since the beginning, as a machete would be. This other blade seems to come from a sabre, and the original tang could be broken, intentionally or not, and mounted it as it is now. But this kind of contructive resource must be taken on account to ID this "berber". The motto on your blade, as I said, seems referred to the Dominican Republic, as a kind of gift, but also could be referred to the people of the colonial city of Santo Domingo, or even to the colonial soldiers born in this city. Haiti is another country, not spansh speaking, but french, though in some periods of their history they were temporarily a single country. Is the blade fullered? Does it have any kind of stamp or mark, apart from the motto? It is possible that this blade could travel as a machete to North Africa, on the hands of a soldier born in Santo Domingo but enlisted in the spanish army overseas, and there remounted in this way? It is not impossible, tough I do not know how much probable. An interesting piece, as many with uncommon features. Exceptions are the rule on the classification of some weapons.
Regards

Gonzalo