Help with talismanic inscriptions?

[VVV]

Do you recognise or have any ideas on the meaning of the talismanic inlay on this Moro Kris?

Michael

[Bill M]

Could we see some overall pictures? The handle?

[VVV]

Could we see some overall pictures? The handle?

Sure,

Do you have any ideas of the meaning?

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael very nice handle does it have an scabbard


Ben

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

No, sometimes you can't get it all... ;)

Michael

[Tim Simmons]

Seeing the whole blade could it be a fire breathing mythical creature. At the handle there are what might be scales then a decorated snout? and what could be flames. Do Eastern dragons breath fire or is that just European dragons which are always terrible creatures?

[Dajak]

Hi Michael after a close look I don t think this is talisman inscription
It might be decoration they use like floral motifs

just a gues


Ben

[katana]

Hi VVV,
I am wondering whether the central 'column' of symbols... maybe some form of pictogram.....the bottom one does have a 'resemblance' to a human form.....a possibility if there are no 'definative answers'. :shrug:

PS I am assuming that it is read 'sword upright' .....bottom being 'closest to hilt'........nice example..by the way ;)

[VVV]

Thanks all for your input!

Ben, sorry but I disagree that floral motifs are decorative only.
It's one of the oldest, universal symbols of the cycle of birth/life and death.

Tim, maybe the scales are eggs (Naga eggs)?
I don't know but your dragon description gave me some ideas...

Katana, I haven't thought about it as a pictogram before.
Anyone knowledgeable about Moro culture who has seen pictograms used somewhere else within this culture?

Michael

[Tim Simmons]

Eggs. An interesting point. To me the egg shape is so distinctive you do not have to be much of a craftsmen to communicate the idea. Also the arcs that could be eggs, are placed in an ordered pattern that look very much like scales of either a reptile or fish. I am not at all sure but to me the art work on this blade is to be seen and easily understood. What may seem a jumble of simple marks to our eyes given our educated/channeled views of communicating may make it difficult to read a very simple message. Also there could be the tendancy to see far more than is actually there. I could also be talking out of my ///// :D .

Could fire breathing be from the relatively long European influence in the PI. ?

[Tim Simmons]

The swirly stuff does not have to be fire. It could be clouds and then we have a flying dragon? There is limited space to show all this information and I do not think we are looking at a weapon made for the court, so to speak.

[Tim Simmons]

Just thought if the arcs near the handle are scales then they face the wrong way tail to head. This may have been done for convenience of pleasing design?

[kai]

I don't think the egg/dragon ideas are going to fly... ;) :rolleyes:

There seem to be only few people left who can read the old Moro script. AFAIK it's not based on pictograms as, for example, Chinese script.

Considering the cultural setting, I wouldn't expect to find obvious graphic references. Repetitions are much more likely to be tied to some numerological symbolism IMVHO. I'd guess that the inlay of this kris is also mainly talismanic but getting even approximate/tentative guesstimates for just about any questions regarding these and their underlying symbolism seems to be very difficult. :(

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

... I'd guess that the inlay of this kris is also mainly talismanic but getting even approximate/tentative guesstimates for just about any questions regarding these and their underlying symbolism seems to be very difficult. :(

Regards,
Kai

I agree but even if it's difficult let's give it a try.
Maybe it will take a couple of years, maybe we will never find out?

Michael

[Pangeran Datu]

Hi,

Consider:

- krises are mainly attributed to the 'Bangsa Moro', inhabiting the Southern Philippines and mainly Muslim.
- up until and during the Spanish conquest the main script used by the peoples of the Southern Philippines was Jawi/Kawi/Arabic, which is not pictographic .
- the only other major script is Eskaya, which is also not pictographic.

IMVHO, anything produced after the Spanish conquest is very unlikely to have scrtpt other than those mentioned and of course, Latin. Thus, the inlay is most probably mere decoration.

Having said that, I must admit that I do not recognise the symbols, if that's what they are.

Cheers.

[VVV]

Pangeran Datu,

Thanks for your input on the possible scripts, maybe some more possible than others?
When looking at talismanic inscriptions and symbols I think we also have to consider the locally practised magic, in this case within "Folk Islam", where symbols from earlier religions, like Hinduism, has survived together with later symbols from Islam.
As well as local symbols that is difficult to trace to any religion.

That's one of the reasons why it's so interesting to study talismans on weapons where a lot of older beliefs quite often appears mixed together with the symbols of the present religion.

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael

........Ben, sorry but I disagree that floral motifs are decorative only.
It's one of the oldest, universal symbols of the cycle of birth/life and death.

Michael[/QUOTE]...........

I mean that they are not talismanic signs floral motifs


I mean something like this

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1995&highlight=peduang


To me talismanic signs are witchcraft signs to give you power protect you
in indonesian it is called goena goena in Suriname Winti in Jamaica or Haiti Voodoo it is mostly based on
The Use off white and black power

And I see nothing off that in the symbols off the keris
There are books that have those symbols.

Ben

[VVV]

Ben,

Please compare with Dayak tattoos and mandau inlays.
Some meanings are lost, some are documented and most of the Dayak today don't know the meaning of them. And several of those who do doesn't want to reveal it to outsiders. But they all have, and originally had, a meaning except only being decorative.

I have experienced the same when travelling in other parts of SE Asia.
First there is no meaning or belief in the old traditions. But once you really get to know people, and they discover that you are seriously interested and don't belittle their beliefs, it's everywhere.
The same could of course be experienced in Sweden and Holland even if more is forgotten here.

The floral vine motif is quite often seen on Moro Kris blades.
Usually ending with a "tongue" or trisula.
For me that's quite obvious symbolism but maybe I am biased because of my interest in religions and old beliefs?

Michael

[katana]

Very interesting debate.... it is a shame that alot of tribal and indigenous symbolism has been lost.....it is a clear indication of the 'erosion' of culture, heritage and identity as they become ( pressured ??) to be 'more civilised' :(

[kai]

As Michael already pointed out: it's very, very difficult to assess how much really has been lost. While in most societies worldwide a considerable part of the population has lost intimate knowledge of the "old ways" this doesn't mean that there are not some who still hold it dear and pass it on. However, if it gets down to core beliefs/knowledge/skills in Asia, you basically have to marry into the (right) family to have a ... chance of becoming privy to it - in just about any other constellation one can consider oneself lucky if being considered worthy for some of the stuff you're looking for. Exaggerated? Not that much... :cool:

Regards,
Kai

[zelbone]

As Michael already pointed out: it's very, very difficult to assess how much really has been lost. While in most societies worldwide a considerable part of the population has lost intimate knowledge of the "old ways" this doesn't mean that there are not some who still hold it dear and pass it on. However, if it gets down to core beliefs/knowledge/skills in Asia, you basically have to marry into the (right) family to have a ... chance of becoming privy to it - in just about any other constellation one can consider oneself lucky if being considered worthy for some of the stuff you're looking for. Exaggerated? Not that much... :cool:

Regards,
Kai


You hit it right on the head...

[Dajak]

Hi Michael I did not now that you also Interested in old beliefs
next visit overhere I will show you very special book about the subject
WALI SANGA the javanese secret teaching contains also writings for the silence power and most off the javanese ghost and devils (try to learn Dutch I have a lot off books about the subject)

I now an grandson off an Iban headman (he is living in the Netherlands)
he went back there in the 80 to an special fest no white man invited
and did see there Iban s with fresh tattoo's so some old things never lost

But things that give you power have to be given by an doekoen or shaman

not by just someone that put old symbols on an weapon that is what I mean

( I also never heard or read that sudang moro krris are made whit the same intension as the javanese one if you know a book that says different let me now I like to read it )

like this you can make a kris a nice one but it have no power

But if an kris made by an special man that can put power in it you have an special keris

You now that some old krisses have still power

Like that madjapahid keris I have that have been proven by a few people also one guy that came 2 years ago from Indonesia to the Netherlands
He was invited by the orginisation TONG TONG I think it was on the PASAR MALAM IN DEN HAAG ( Ruud Greve was also there and a lot people did bring their stuff very interesthing)
that can feel if there is any magic or power in subjects from Indonesia
he did feel that there is still very strong power in the keris or chunderik

It does not always be a weapon that have power could be anything


Ben

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

Look forward to read the Wali Sanga book.
I have heard about it and even if I don't speak Dutch I can understand most of it by now with some deduction and imagination.
And I have participated, as the only outsider, in exorcistic rites in both East Kalimantan and Negros, Philippines.

Of course Filipino weapons are also believed to have metaphysical powers within them.
Actually I had some of my weapons "spirit-checked" around 9 years ago by a Filipino friend who has experience in those matters. He doesn't like that I collect old, and even worse - used, weapons for that reason. ;)

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael I will translate some for you if you want it is from old javanese

books

I had only some bad and some good expirience with my own krisses when I had a collection more than 300 krisses


Ben

[VVV]

Thanks Ben,

Michael

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Michael,

You may, or you may not, have noticed that we have had some kind of the same discussion about Indian weapons.

The subject is very interesting, and I believe that the decoration of weapons means far more that the decorative side. The problem is, that I can’t prove it at the moment. There is a very strong symbolic force in this – and it is very ancient. Although the meaning may be forgotten, the same signs seem to be used. The signs can/will be different, and when designs half forgotten, different artists starts their own interpretation – but it is still there.

It may interest you, that Dr. Ann Feuerberg, who joined the excavations at Marv, is studying the symbolic value of the decorations on hilts and blades. She is one of the first scientists, whom to my knowledge, has take a serious interest in this subject.

Jens

Kan du ha' en god dag:)

[VVV]

Hej Jens,

I wasn't aware of the Indian weapons discussion.
Could you please PM me the link?
Very interesting about the research of Dr Feuerberg.
On Indonesian weapons some research has already been done, mostly on Mandau and Keris. But there is of course a lot left to be researched.

Michael

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi, sorry i made a mistake about the name, it is Dr. Ann Feuerbach – sorry Ann.


Jens

[Dajak]

Michael do you have the Stone book ?

At the keris part is a story that tells how that the Dutch people could tell if an kris brings luck or brings bad luck

Ben

[Battara]

Sorry I've been away - 'puter problems.

I have been looking through research and can only take a guess at some of this. They could be moon symbols with some other meaning or a special plant motif.

That being said, I agree with Kai 100% (good job Kai).

[Jim McDougall]

This thread is fascinating!!! and although considerably outside my usual field or range of study, the topic is widely applied to virtually all forms of ethnographic weapons, as Jens has very aptly noted. As he suggests, material culture often survives and as we know is collected, with the motif and symbolic decoration losing the original meaning as the items leave thier original environment.
I think it is great to see the outstanding knowledge shared here working together to develop plausible and likely explanations concerning this example and the topic overall. It is exciting to learn more on this as it certainly is beneficial to incorporate the same perspective and theories in all aspects and theaters of ethnographic weapons study!

As an admittedly 'untrained' eye on Moro weapons, I would like to nonetheless suggest that to me the motif seems to overall follow the contour of the blade, and the outside or border motif does seem decorative in its linear and repetitive form. The figures within the border however do seem to reflect some symbolic possibility, with some possibility of anthromorphic forms as has been mentioned. It does seem to me that the semicircular motif in the 'border' may have, as suggested, nagan connotation.

I very much look forward to any response on these views, as well as the development of this discussion as I would like to learn more on the symbolism of these weapons. Its great to broaden horizons!! :)
Thanks very much guys!!

All the best,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

Looking in a few books on the art of regions surrounding and relevant to this sword. I think it may not be too far fetched to see the design as a stylisation of a Naga/Dragon which is indeed common to this part of the world. It may be so stylised to be inoffensive to a more strict Muslim environment. This dramatic stylisation of fantastic beasts and sky motiffs is common in other Islamic art forms. Most easily brought to mind is the carpet, incompassing much Islamic design. I will try and add more after my tea.

[Tim Simmons]

This design on the sword may be even more simple and obvious if you are a practicing Muslim or rather one familiar with the Islamic artistic cosmology. I am most certainly not. However one could see the design in two parts. The swirly part nearest the tip is a cloud which symbolises the sky, the portal to heaven. Heaven being one of several layers of gates in the celestial world. After heaven there is another portal the sun gate the divine light and leading to the throne of god.
The part nearest the hilt that I suggested was a dragon may still be so. But I now think it is most likely a representation of Eden. What I saw as scales though upside down, is the land/earth and from that the strange pattern is the garden of exotic flowers. These elements of Islamic iconography are not hard to find or I could have just lost my marbles :eek: :cool: .

post script.

The centre or field of a this Kashmir carpet/prayer rug illustrates this quite well but there is a lot more room for the designer to explain themselves. The clouds are cearly seen outside the dome {mirhab} the garden in this case a tree and known in the carpet world as the tree of life.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/ax008.jpg

[Battara]

Never thought of that......something to consider. :)

[Dajak]

Hi Tim It s nice the tree of life but is it talismanic does it brings you power in a battle .

That s what I don t think so I don t think it is talasmanic

but maybe I am wrong so I like to know



Ben

[Tim Simmons]

Battle and paradise have been linked by many people and cultures throughout history. To me this imagery on an Islamic weapon is pretty much the same as a sacred heart or other device/talisman on a European saber. The imagery fits the concept of cultural belief. I believe to be killed in battle, the warrior goes straight to paradise/heaven.

[VVV]

The tree of life/central pillar/axis mundi is a very important both archaic and universal symbol for comparing different religions according to the leading authority within this field - Mircea Eliade. In short it's the center of the world, the connection point between the heaven (where "the Sacred" reside), the earth (humans) and often the underworld. Compare Jacob's ladder, Gunungan etc.

Seeing the scales/eggs as clouds, symbolising heaven, is maybe a key to this riddle?
On the "figures" inbetween an interpretation could be that they somehow represents something dualistic, like + - + -.
To have an idea what it could be of course you have to know more about the local myths and beliefs than I do at the moment. Maybe if somebody knows something about local creation myths a theory could be developed? An example could be if f.i. at the time of creation some divine force created two men and two females from where all humans origin?

Not knowing if this is the case a hypothesis of this inlay as talismanic could be:

At the base of the Kris (heaven, the Sacred?) is something of a "battery/power source" that transmits some kind of energy (the + - + -). This energy is transformed into a (earth - vegetative, creative) force (birth-life-death) that is pointed at an enemy in battle to powercharge this Kris.

If the + - + - represents male and female ancestors then we have a metaphysical "nuclear missile launcher"? :D

Michael

[Tim Simmons]

The scales/eggs are the garden of Eden/paradise and the clouds the sky and gateway to the divine light and throne of god.
I am turning into a carpet salesman :D . They do help explain Islamic iconography. With this Turkish example the same message is behind a much more formal arrangement. The garden/paradise is a single plant in a pedestal bowl. Kashmir to Turkey is nearly as far as Kashmir to PI echoing the spread of Islam. I bet if members look they will see more of this stylised motif on other weapons.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/ax009.jpg

[VVV]

Tim,

As you have noticed I got inspired by your tree of life interpretation of the inlay.
But I am more hesitant to the "backwards symbolism" of sending yourself to heaven from earth with the help of this sword.
I find it more probable that the owner wished to survive and the sword to send the opponent to hell instead. :D
From what little I have been exposed to Filipino culture I have seen more of positive thinking than negative thinking of the outcome of battles.
In the case of Juramentado I have the impression that the blades they used were not as expensive and high status like this?

Michael

[Tim Simmons]

I am sure it would be a positive thing. like all mottoes on weapons. God is always on your side. :p

[Tim Simmons]

Honest. I post this one from Afghanistan to show how stylised these can get. So the images on the blade are relatively conservative.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/bird.jpg

[katana]

I appreciate that sometimes I have some 'wacky' ideas....but if we all thought the same way....progress in knowledge would be greatly slowed. (well that's my excuse anyway :D :p ) but I'd like to throw this idea into the discussion.

The phallic symbolism of the sword has been shown to be relevant to many cultures and time periods.....
Could it be that the 'clouds' indeed symbolises 'heaven' , the repetative side motif symbolising 'life' (if it is a form of flora ) but, shaped in a phallic design (the 'bringer' of life? Male virility?). The 'rising' symbols perhaps representative of male, female (human seed? re-incarnated souls?). The Sword itself, is the 'bringer' of death, in combination with the 'life' symbolism, we end up with a depiction of the cycle of life........birth (re-birth?) , growth and death.

.........and afterall 'The pen_is mightier than the sword'... :D :rolleyes:

Interesting thread, iconography, symbolism etc is an important part in the study of ethnographic weaponary. If we could 'crack' the lost meanings ...we would get 'more of a feel' of how these items were viewed through the 'eyes' of their original owners.

[Tim Simmons]

The Mosque as an image is not unknown on carpets, sorry to labour this aspect but they do give a wonderful resource. I could see a column of people prone at prayer which would be very unorthodox and a fantastic example of a PI twist to an Islamic motif. The image carried on a blade as this is the tropics, sheep are not kept so the carpet tradition and artistic expession does not exist in PI.

[Tim Simmons]

I wonder if we see the same thing on this middle eastern knife. This knife is no longer mine. Although possibly a little more simple it is quite a formal pattern with some similarity to the Turkish design.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2116&highlight=balkan+knife

[VVV]

...The phallic symbolism of the sword has been shown to be relevant to many cultures and time periods.....
Could it be that the 'clouds' indeed symbolises 'heaven' , the repetative side motif symbolising 'life' (if it is a form of flora ) but, shaped in a phallic design (the 'bringer' of life? Male virility?). The 'rising' symbols perhaps representative of male, female (human seed? re-incarnated souls?). The Sword itself, is the 'bringer' of death, in combination with the 'life' symbolism, we end up with a depiction of the cycle of life........birth (re-birth?) , growth and death... we could 'crack' the lost meanings ...

The phallic symbolism for the Kris is quite probable.
At least one myth in Indonesia mentions this aspect as well as the old connection between Keris and Shivaism.

Michael

[Bill M]

Hmm, it seems that we are looking at symbols from a culture that was originally Negrito, animistic then with an Islamic veneer, over this older animistic culture.

We have two main avenues of possibilities. Interpret in terms of that particular society and interpret in terms of universal symbols.

Interpretations in terms of a societal arena posits certain questions. First, how many people in any culture truly understand in depth, the symbols of their OWN culture? And of those people, how many are willing to talk about those symbols? If they do talk, how much is intentional or accidental misinformation.

In "Shields of Melanesia" (2006) Ed Harry Beran and Barry Craig, the author remarks that he has often asked about a design on a new Guinea shield. Often he was told, “We merely follow what our ancestors have done.” When he asked about a certain symbol on a shield, they said, “the v-shape represents the beak of the hornbill.”

This could represent the way the hornbill beak looks from straight ahead as seen by the young hornbill when he is being fed through an opening in the tree trunk. Maybe this could be on the back of the shield to strengthen and protect the bearer.

This could fit in 'local legends' Melanesia or in Borneo. The Dayak believe that the hornbill is a divine messenger. Maybe the V could represent the hornbill telling a Dayak a message from the high kingdom. BUT unless you take the time to learn about a specific culture you will have an impossible time learning the symbolism that appears on weapons or other artifacts.

Continuing in “Shields of Melanesia,” the author continues to ponder the problem of understanding a culture by observation and logic. He uses the metaphor of an Martian anthropologist lands lands on earth. He begins to quiz people on the street of a modern industrial society about the meaning of the overall design of an automobile.

He would be told, “it does not represent anything. It evolved from carts pulled by horses. It is merely designed to transport people and goods."

But the Martian might ask deeper questions. Why does it have two headlights? Do they represent eyes? Maybe a talisman that looks ahead for the protection and safety of the driver? The grill looks like a mouth. Is this to threaten other drivers that your vehicle might attack and eat them?

I have left the book a few sentences back and now forge ahead on my own.

The three pointed star on the hood ornament (Mercedes) does this represent the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit of the Christian religion? The Trimurti (Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma)? The high world, the middle world and the lower world, always keeping them in mind as you go forth?

Do the hubcaps represent shields? They have 12 divisions. Does that correspond to your Zodiac? They are removable, do you use them for personal defense? As thrown weapons?

The patterns in your upholstery. They look vegetative. Do they represent the eggs and flowers of Creation? Is your exhaust a dragon simile?

Now I would suspect it would get even more complicated and possibly if our Martian was using his own culture as a basis.

So where does that leave us in the study of a design on an artifact created as an Islamic overlay on an animistic folk magic culture? Can logic lead anywhere productive?

I think it does if you approach these symbols from a more universal standpoint. Let the logic lead to a visceral response. What do they mean to you? Shiva’s Trident? Neptune’s Trident? Naga eggs? Clouds? Flowers? Do they evoke a feeling in you, the viewer?

Then that is exactly what they mean. What did they mean to the guy who put them there? I sincerely doubt anyone, even his wife, will ever know.

I believe it was Jung who suggested that instead of analyzing the dream, analyze the dreamer. If this strikes a chord in someone here – other than just thinking this reply is the ramblings of a bemused dreamer, myself, we can take this further.

Where do symbols come from? Why do we use them? Why are we drawn to them? Why are the religious systems of EVERY culture riddled with paradoxes?

[Tim Simmons]

Interesting points Bill. I am inclined to feel that we can look at these not as an absolute alien. We do have some well known facts about the people thier religion and lives. I am dreaming too, but a local version linked to a pan Islamic influence is a viable area to investigate. Looking for a source is possibly a first step. Scholars managed to interpret ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics and much middle American writing systems. If other members had more to compere might be helpful.

[Bill M]

Interesting points Bill. I am inclined to feel that we can look at these not as an absolute alien. We do have some well known facts about the people thier religion and lives. I am dreaming too, but a local version linked to a pan Islamic influence is a viable area to investigate. Looking for a source is possibly a first step. Scholars managed to interpret ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics and much middle American writing systems. If other members had more to compere might be helpful.



Hi Tim,

I believe the hieroglyphics were basically untranslateable until someone discovered the Rosetta stone that had the royal and heavenly (Egyptian) languages along with the same information in classical Greek.

Even then it took about 20 years, after it was discovered, (early 1800s) for a translation to be availaible. Comparative translation of this artifact originally created in about 200 bc did then lead to the understanding of previously untranslatable heiroglyphic texts. The text of the Rosetta Stone is a decree from Ptolemy V, describing the repealing of various taxes and instructions to erect statues in temples.

I don't necessarily see a correlation here. Best I can tell the early animistic cultures, whether Philippines or elsewhere had no written language.

I would like to belive that I coulld look at these animistic cultures with a better understanding, but I have friends who have been there and studied primitive cultures and they have told me there is an alien-ness that they never felt they ever understood.

Even in the works of Margaret Mead, there is confusion.

Still we can glean information from their works and hopefully enjoy a glimmer of understanding. We do the best we can. For now, I can see agreement with every interpretation in this thread on Michael's exceptional kris. All have validity.

Personally it looks like a protective enclosure focusing some energy down the blade.

[VVV]

Bill,

Thanks for your interesting posts.
One thing that puzzles me is the Negrito connection?
As far as I understand the "Moros" are of Malay-Indonesian origin and not related to the original "Negritos" living before them on the islands?
Another influence, especially important related to Kris culture and Folk Islam, is the pre-Islamic Hindu beliefs in this area.

Also there exist some early documentation to be found on the beliefs in the area from the time before this Kris was produced.

On the two avenues it's a classical clash of two schools (f.i. within your field of comparative religion);
- all symbols are universal (Eliade, Jung), and
- all symbols are specific to the local culture (Evans-Pritchard, Geertz).
As usual with two extremes "the truth" is often found somewhere inbetween.

I really enjoyed your Martian example but if the Martian had read about the earthlings before his field work probably he had drawn less drastic conclusions?

I fully agree with you on:

"Still we can glean information from their works and hopefully enjoy a glimmer of understanding."

That's exactly the purpose of this thread. We can probably never find out for sure the exact meaning of this motif. But together maybe we can find some possible explanations of it?
The alternative is to dismiss it as all guess work, which in a way it of course is. But that doesn't increase the possibility of understanding on how to get closer to some of the more probable meanings of this riddle.

Michael

[Tim Simmons]

We also know that the people in question are indeed Muslims and as one of the worlds major faiths comes with its own iconography. Look at the array of styles of Christian crosses from region to region, all mean the same thing. Could the images on these two weapons be the same scenario? We know religious mottoes and talisman are used as protective and good fortune symbols. We could want or have a need to dig too deep and expect or hope for a strange occult outcome when it might be quite straight forward, perhaps even obvious once one is attuned? :shrug: Somebody must have another Islamic weapon with something similar on it?

[katana]

This thread is getting better and better..... Bill you 'martian' analogy is 'spot on' ...sometimes symbolism can be 'over anaylsised'. And you are correct the 'Rosetta' stone finally unlocked the hieroglyphics of Ancient Egypt. Tim interesting input and VVV thankyou for your comments. Keep up the good work :)

[ibeam]

Hello VVV,
Can you share some other examples of Moro swords from your collection that have talismanic inscriptions on their blades. Maybe there are some that maybe be related and may bring some more discussion.
Since talismanic beliefs tend to be more protective by nature, should these inscription also be seen on other Moro battle attire like Armors, helmets and shields as well??

[Dajak]

The same geometric signs can be seen on shields


Ben

[Spunjer]

lol, forgot to mention that on the other thread but yes other than the large ones there are small geometric designs and circles on that shield. first time i seen them on a moro shield. would be nice to see other examples.

[VVV]

Hello VVV,
Can you share some other examples of Moro swords from your collection that have talismanic inscriptions on their blades. Maybe there are some that maybe be related and may bring some more discussion.
Since talismanic beliefs tend to be more protective by nature, should these inscription also be seen on other Moro battle attire like Armors, helmets and shields as well??

Hello Jon,

I am travelling this week and will post some more examples when back home again.

Michael

[Spunjer]

...reviving an old thread.

michael, it would be very interesting to see more examples from your collection, or anyone else that has moro swords with talismanic symbols for that matter. meanwhile, here's a barung that has talismanic symbols:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/1782635b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/005e0ffb.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/2b2c5b69.jpg

[kino]

Spunjer, It looks like Zulfiqar, the sword of Ali. Nice Barung, give it to me for Pasko, Pare.

[Spunjer]

yup, it is the zulfiqar. actually first barung i have that has talismanic symbol. wanna trade with some of your A-list moro stuff, p're??? :D
here's another one; a kampilan with talismanic symbols (trisula) running 2/3s along the spine followed by discs, and ukkil at the base of the blade on both sides. another interesting aspect is the rayskin wrap on the handle, something i've never seen on any moro weapons.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/761f6497.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/89ccace6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/1e69a465.jpg

[VVV]

Interesting and unusual blades!

I haven't either seen these motifs on a kampilan or a ray skin at the handle.
That's strange as the sting-ray's tail, as I have been told, was quite common as a weapon all over Philippines?

Michael

[Spunjer]

the stingray's tail, or buntot-pagi, are indeed used as a weapon, but it is more towards supernatural application, michael.

another less unusual, but uncommon, is the utilization of horn as croc eyes. btw, michael, do you have any other moro stuff that has talismanic symbols you don't mind sharing?

[VVV]

Thanks for the explanation of the stingray whip.
Please develop the relationship between horn and croc's eyes as I didn't get it?
Here is a link to the seller's pictures of one of my bolos with talismanic motifs.

http://www.mytribalworld.com/pagina12.html

My guess is that it's Visayan.
Any other ideas on the origin and/or the meaning of the motifs on the blade?

Michael

[Spunjer]

sorry for the misunderstanding. i meant to say that regarding the croc's eyes on the kampilan, i haven't seen any that utilized horns for its eyes. normally it's some sort of metallic discs...

as far as your sword: wow, that's a beauty! it's an enigma as well since it has attributes from different sources. the blade has visayan flavor (beveled edge), and even the handle appears to be a bakunawa. the patterns on the blade is something i've never seen on any visayan blades tho. it appears lumad. michael, if there's anyone that could prolly help you on this, i would say manong leo gaje could. i'm sorry i couldn't be much of help.

[VVV]

Thanks,

On talismanic inlays, as well as other spiritual matters, in most cultures it's usually considered stronger if it's foreign.
So maybe this is the case? A visayan sword with Lumad (inspired or copied?) engravings?
Maybe someone else recognise something on this blade?
Do you think the blade motifs might be related to (evil) eyes or is it something else?

Michael

[Spunjer]

hi michael,
i was looking at one of my binangons and i remember this unusual feature:

this binangon:
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/202-rz6.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/fd805cf6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/7644d1fe.jpg

at first glance, it could be assumed that a hugh rasp file (at least 20" by 2.5")was used as blank to make the blade. granted it was, but why not grind it until there's no sign that it was a rasp file? or was it left there on purpose? remember; bakunawa = dragon ;)

here's a motif from a recent kris that i haven't cleaned yet:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/76c40859.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/d3240464.jpg

[VVV]

Hi Ron,

Bakunawa and scales is an interesting idea that I haven't heard of before.
Here are some new pictures of the bolo I only had a link to before.

Michael

[Spunjer]

without a doubt, it is a bakunawa, more pronounced than the Ilonggo version. thanks for the close ups. the lean on the blade is something i find unusual. pretty cool, tho.

[VVV]

Here is a motif I haven't seen on kris blades before - the star cluster.
It was a pleasant surprise as the pictures on ebay was of a very low quality so it was impossible to see what the blade really looked like.
Also an unusual hanger attached to the scabbard on this Maranao kris.
The hilt and scabbard however aren't that exciting.
Any ideas or references for this motif?

Michael

[kai]

Congrats, Michael!

The blade looks Sulu to me - hilt possibly Maguindanao?

This "star" motif seems to be related to the smaller "stars"/"bird footprints" sometmes seen on older Moro blades. A thumbnail of a really nice example is published in vZ (sundang)...

The small peg for holding the scabbard in the sash seems to be quite common with these Maguindanao scabbards.

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

Maybe I was too fast with describing the blade as Maranao?
I went for the Cato classification but I agree that the rest looks more Sulu.
On the van Z thumb nail picture I can't really see if it's stars or the more common dots?
Do you have any other reference picture?

Michael

[Tim Simmons]

I do not know if this has any relevance but flowers-gardens-paradise, and stars-heaven, are all often elements in Islamic carpet design and other decoration.

[Spunjer]

hi michael,
thanks for posting that.
are the stars in any particular pattern going down the blade?
as per the scabbard; prolly not original to the blade...

[Battara]

I agree with Kai in that the blade looks Sulu but the rest is Maguindanao.

Also the "fingernail" symbols are an old okir motif, used in both Maranao/Maguindanao and Sulu pieces. These seemed to have migrated to the Lumad tribes as well who live near the Maguindanao and Maranao. The tool that makes this symbol is easy to make and common to chasing tools all over Indonesia and the PI.

[VVV]

Thanks all for comments,

On the "stars" they are single on the katik area and then along the fuller it's 5-formations with a single star inbetween (1+5+1+5+1 etc.).
On the scabbard and hilt I also suspect that they are later than the blade.

Michael

[Tim Simmons]

This link is interesting. There is a warning not to see what you want to see, {scroll down to sub title "The Paradise Show"} but this kind of imagery appears frequently on these weapons. We know the back ground and setting, also that the peoples are Muslim, that weapons, warriors, jihad, death and martyrdom often go hand in hand with faith and paradise. Mottos and talismans of a religous nature are common on edged weapons the world over. It is not unreasonable to consider exploring possible links to "higher?" depictions of paradise in Islamic art and architecture.

http://www.sonic.net/~tallen/palmtree/ip.html

[VVV]

Thanks Tim,

Some symbols, like Ali's sword, probably don't have that many probable interpretations?
But for a star, or a star formation of five, it's quite open.
Both the star in itself, that could maybe symbolise something celestial, and the number 5 have a lot of possible explanations:
- the 5 palaces of Malay metaphysics - heart, stomach, liver, lungs and the complete body?
- the 5 daily prayers?
- 5 fingers in your eye, against the evil eye?
- the old Hindu-Malay divination system of the 5 times of the day and the 5 days - Katika Lima?
- maybe Paradise somehow or maybe something else?
I am open and curious for suggestions.

Michael

[Spunjer]

Thanks all for comments,

On the "stars" they are single on the katik area and then along the fuller it's 5-formations with a single star inbetween (1+5+1+5+1 etc.).
On the scabbard and hilt I also suspect that they are later than the blade.

Michael

thank you!
another angle could be perhaps it's not not talismanic, rather just some patriotic decor.

[Mytribalworld]

Do you recognise or have any ideas on the meaning of the talismanic inlay on this Moro Kris?

Michael

Hi Michael,

I think its ( the motis on page 1 with cirlces and arrows) more or less related to a symbol what know in old works as " the headhunting symbol" .
It looks like a split of the whole symbol maybe course it has lost its original meaning.

The headhunting symbol is widespread and the most clear in the Ceram and Celebes culture where in the motif 4 birds flying away from the sun. ( the cirlce) The birds are in some cultures replaced by halfmoon motifs , half moon motifs are on their way connected with the horn motif a fertility symbol.
The sun wich is coming up and going down is the symbol of live and death.

combing these two symbols in one motif these kind of motifs are very old and used as symbols around headhunting.

Source: Toovertekens en symbolen van Indonesie - G.L.Tichelman.
Arjan.

[VVV]

Thanks both Ron and Arjan for sharing your knowledge.
As well as giving me new ideas on the meaning of the motifs of both the last and the first kris of this thread.

Michael

[Tim Simmons]

There are so many stars I cannot see the 5 star thing. I am not an expert acedemic but what I can see is a floral motif capped by a pattern of stars done in a most sensitive and economical manner in a confined space, so clever -beautiful in fact. If it does not represent paradise under the celestial sky? it is indeed very simple to read it so, one might think it was almost deliberate.

[VVV]

Tim,

The floral motif is quite common on Sulu kris.
Bill has earlier posted a very nice kris with this motif.
It seems to be a symbol for the sultanate?
The 5 stars are lower on the blade, inside and along the fuller.

Michael

[Tim Simmons]

There are still lots more stars? is the Sultan a Muslim? is the Sultanate Islamic? Perhaps the inclusion of the Sultan stars is some suggetion to ideas of an Islamic paradise/state on earth? is the 5 star configuration just a help with the overall decorative affect? No answers, but I think this is far from just random pretty sword decoration, it is purposeful. I think the artist would want other people to very quickly understand the imagery?

[Battara]

The 5 star pattern could represent the Sulu Sultanate, which uses 5 stars on the flag to represent the 5 territories under it's control at the time.

[Tim Simmons]

It is possible to see a pattern of 7 stars. One either side of the tighter group of 5. If the 5 stars patterns are to represent the Sultanate I see no conflict in a depiction of paradise. I just think it is very cleverly done such a lot of information in such a small space and still beatiful.

[Tim Simmons]

Scroll down to Paradise, lots of high art pictures in this site but does include Islam east of India? :shrug:
http://www.patterninislamicart.com/background-notes/the-religious-dimension/

[Pusaka]

I think this inscription is not for decoration ( its hardly visually beautiful).

The inscription is also not talismanic I think i.e. its not magic

The inscription is also not an encoded message.

In my opinion the inscription is purely symbolic and is not designed for others to understand but rather it was to remind the original owner of a concept or knowledge which was important to them personally.

[Tim Simmons]

It is the the simple graphics fitting the form that is the beauty for me, perhaps a reminder of a passionate nocturnal outdoors encounter :D

http://science.jrank.org/pages/10606/Paradise-on-Earth-Islamic-Art-Literature.html

[Spunjer]

here's a barung that has some neat squiggly lines inlaid in brass on both sides. i like this one since it's almost as if she's telling me a story. well, than and one of the most intricate handle carvings i've seen. which matches the squiggly lines on the blade.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/P5131669.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/P5131664.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/PC102404.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/PC102405.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/PB282353.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/Spunjer/PB282355.jpg


...and to answer your question, tim; yes, the moros are muslims

[Battara]

I see a stylized okir naga on the blade - nice. :)

[hideyoshi]

are this naga? or dragons supposedly? thnks.
bad photo, sorry.

[kino]

WOW! 2 beautiful Barung's. Love those blades.

Spunjer that pommel looks huge.
Hideyoshi, can you post a photo of the whole Barung.

Here is one of mine that I had posted earlier. The inlay of mine looks like a centipede. What happened to the Moro tenet that images of animals were prohibited. :shrug:

[Battara]

are this naga? or dragons supposedly? thnks.
bad photo, sorry.
Yes those are naga, and what a wonderful blade at that! :D

Would you post pictures of the whole think (including hilt)?

Kino, nice one too - pommel looks Samal, though need a better picture of it to tell for sure.

[hideyoshi]

hi battara, thnk you soo much for the info. i do not have any new photos of the barung but i hope this old photo from the previous owner will serve it's purpose. it was sold with a matching kris. i will post both blades on a separate thread as soon a i get new photos.

[Battara]

Very nice. I look forward to the pictures and new thread.

[VVV]

Great dragons and centipedes!
Here is one of mine we discussed in an earlier thread.
Seems like centipedes are attracted to shandigans?

Michael

[Spunjer]

nice barungs, gentlemen!
anymore inlaid barungs???

[zambotreas]

I have this lovely 19th century kris with talismatic incriptions. I'd like to post some pics of the kris and ask for some opinions. but I do not know how.

This is my first post. Hope you can assist.

Thanks

Rey

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

As a complete outsider on these weapons I will take a guess and since I was looking at war canoes it does appear that what could be a "from that region" craft with the curved bows marked and of catamaran form with warriors down each flank and the central planking or walkway with the chief navigator and captain/leader …. the concept needs a seascape and I think a few inches down the blade you have just that.. but out of frame... at the stern more warriors shown . a fully armed and manned war canoe is my suggestion... :shrug:

The war canoe best fitting that description is shown below and may be Maori but it gets across my point.