Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[spiral]

Picked this up before Christmas.

It has a Bronze cast handle of women,goat,dagger & pan. {tormented faces with skullcaps on ends of crossgaurd, & cast scabbard of cathedral, crosses, alter candals etc.

It is just under 14 inches long. Both sides of scabbard are identical.

I have a few questians about it. Greatfull for any help.

1, Country of Origin? {I understand France & Germany are the commonest?}

2, Age of handle & scabbard?

3, origin, age & type of blade, a collector friend suggested its been cut & reshaped from the center section of 16th centry a Swiss Baslard blade or similar?


It would also be nice to see other exampls of these...


Both the blade & the reworking of it & the scabbard all seem very high quality.

The blade locks by friction in the scabbard in the last mm of movement. The scabbard is lined with what I think is solidified blue velvet.


Hopefully at least some of the questians about it even if not all can be answered here?

All veiws & thoughts welcome.


Thanks.
Spiral

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/d1.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/d13.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/d5.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/d2.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/d7.jpg

[spiral]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/d4.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/d3.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/d10.jpg


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/d16.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/d17.jpg




I actuly found this the hardest knife to photo I ever have had....

[RhysMichael]

This may be the first non-contemporary Arthame I have ever seen. It is a very interesting piece. I notice there seems to be an upside down cross on the scabbard ( whick would make sense), perhaps an upsidedown church steeple and as you said candles, are there other symbols that I missed or cannot be seen in these pictures. The faces are interesting but on woodcarvings on furniture at least some cherubs from tudor times had tormeted or monstrous faces

could the item in the figures left hand represent a caldron ?

[Rick]

The symbolism is terrific.
The animal seeks the knife stuck in her belt.
She is surely going to make a sacrifice; something to catch the blood in her left hand ?

[spiral]

Thanks Guys, it seems an outstanding piece to me.

Rhysmichael the scabbard is a 3 door church or cathedral with as you say altar candals & 3 crucifixes all of which is upside down when the dagger is hilt up.

I rather wonder if it was modeled on an actual church to a degree? There a lots of small crosses alsoon the shuttered windows.

I understand that as Rick says that a pan would be used to capture the blood of the sacrafice

One of the faces when stuided under a lens is also covered in boils. I presume the skull caps represent Catholic clergy? & they are beneath the ground the woman {Lilith perhaps?} stands on.

Seems hard to find much info on these daggers & I am sure thier may be symbolism involved that I am missing. I wonder about the necklace for instance?


Spiral

[Bill M]

This may be the first non-contemporary Arthame I have ever seen. It is a very interesting piece. I notice there seems to be an upside down cross on the scabbard ( whick would make sense), perhaps an upsidedown church steeple and as you said candles, are there other symbols that I missed or cannot be seen in these pictures. The faces are interesting but on woodcarvings on furniture at least some cherubs from tudor times had tormeted or monstrous faces

could the item in the figures left hand represent a caldron ?

Not an Atheme scabbard. Could the scabbard be a later addition?

An atheme would not have upside-down or rightside-up cross. Christian symbols are not part of Wicca. Probably not Pagan either. Most likely something else.

Maybe satanist or some anti-christian cult.

Cauldrons have three legs and are more spherical.

Blade does look like a reshaped sword blade. Particularly the way the fullers go up into the handle.

I like it.

[David]

Beautiful dagger. The scabbard does seem to be a representation of a church. I see nothing that would ID the woman as Lilith. I would assume she is more likely a high priestess. I would also stop short of referring to this as a "satanic" dagger, though it is most like to be for pagan purposes. Just because it may not be from a Judeo-Christian tradition doesn't necessarily make it "satanic". :)

[spiral]

Bill I am sure the scabbard & handle were crafted & chased by the same hand at the same time.

I would also say the blade was older than the scabbard & handle were then made for it for its new life for a well to do satanist.

From what i have read it was usual to use older blades.

I totaly agree Athame is not the term i would use.

Thankyou David!

I say Satanic because that is who would use upside down churches & crucifixes, and perhaps the tormented clergy also featured? My understanding of Pagan woudnt include that.

I agree it may not be Lillith & your supposition that its a high priestess could be correct.

It would be usefull if someone had more expierience of these daggers & old satanic symbolism.

Spiral

[wolviex]

I agree with David and it seems to be obvious that scabbard is a representation of a church.

But I DON'T AGREE with an upside down theory which is just a wishful thinking here, I suppose, and the result you would like to see it upside down.

First: if the scabbard represents a church why the upside down crosses, or - I'm not familiar with stanic symbolism - but do they ever picture churches upsidedown :confused:

Second, and most important, the image with hilt downside is the proper side! Take a look at the most of the European swords, and blades inscriptions, including crosses (i.e. Hungarian ones) - with your theory every one of them would be satanic, upside down!

Regards!

[Tim Simmons]

I am not at all sure this is "satanic" if you look very closely you will see that the crosses are not upside down. look at the arches and read from there and you will see the crosses are in the correct position. The lady has a tambourine in her hand and I think the goat has a far more philosophical meaning, as in scape goat? very hard to be sure. I cannot see any symbolism that is not of an ordinary Christian sect/brotherhood nature. Nice castings.

[David]

Agreed. The crosses are upside down because the church is, This is the natural position since the steeple shape follows the scabbard. I reject terms like "satanist" because they are very loaded and inaccurate. Satanism is a modern phenomenon, like the Church of Satan or the Temple of Set. Frankly i find it hard to take these guys too seriously. :rolleyes: In the old days anything non-Christian was considered to be of satan, but i think you would be hard pressed to find any actual satanic cults that were organized to the level that they would create such a work as this dagger for their uses. I have quite a bit of experience with old pagan symbols, but would not consider them to be "satanic" in nature...even the ones that feature horned gods and inverted pentagrams. This does appear to be a ritual dagger of some sort and i would image it might be late 19th to early 20th century.
The term athame really doesn'y come into any serious usage until the neo-pagan wicca movement of the 1950s, thougfh many have attempted to present some sort of old etymology. As for tormented figures, you can find such things in many old churches along with images of the green man and othet pagan signs. The church used to love to show torment to scare it's paritioners into being good. Go figure... :shrug: :)

[Yannis]

I agree with Wolviex totally. This is a normal cathedral with its crosses. It has nothing to do with satanic. What is it?

It looked familiar till… :cool:

Have you ever read/seen the “The Hunchback of Notre Dame”????

Esmeralda, was a beautiful gypsy woman and she had a goat, Djali, I think. So she plays with her tambourine to tease us :D :D :D

Victor Hugo wrote the story in 1831 and it was best seller soon after that. So why not a “fantasy” knife of mid 19th century?

[Rick]

Ding !
Could be we have a winner. :D

[katana]

Yannis, I too think you are 'bang on' with your suggestion. The sheath seems to have many similarities to architectural features of Notre Dame.
Is the knife / dagger in her waist band relavent to the story ?

[Jim McDougall]

Without going into more detail at this point, I am under the impression that artistic scabbard symbolism is intended to be 'viewed' with point upward, and as noted the cross is properly upright.
This is a fascinating knife and I don't believe any sinister connotations are employed in the motif, but it will be interesting to see what develops with further research. The architectural similarities do associate with Notre Dame in the sense that they seem 'Gothic' , which is of course the style, and think Yannis may be right on target. It does seem that daggers, from the time of the distinctive artistic examples that carried the work of Hans Holstein whose painting 'The Dance of Death' is found on early daggers (thus colloquially termed 'Holbein' daggers) may have inspired other 'artistic' theme type items.

Best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

Thanks for your opinions!

"wolviex quote" Second, and most important, the image with hilt downside is the proper side! Take a look at the most of the European swords, and blades inscriptions, including crosses (i.e. Hungarian ones) - with your theory every one of them would be satanic, upside down!"


Fascinating! I though the referance was which way things were on the scabbard , Ive always seen motifs the opposite way to those on the blade

Jim Can you elucidate why you think the scabbard should be studyed point up? i was thinking of the knife the forumites here would describe as "fantasy" in that it has an exotic cast handle, in the wallace collection that was a gift from Napolean III to the 4th Marques of of Hereford.

As its the nearest knife Ive seen to this design.

mmmm. Normal church representation & a happy maiden or a fantasy knife?

Intriuging opinions from such a learned bunch! Any one got any facts to add?

Perhaps some of you would be kind enough to show example of other such Christian brotherhood fantasy pieces?

& of course examples of real Satanic daggers or do such things not exist?

It would be nice to find an expert on such things.

Spiral

[RhysMichael]

I agree with David and it seems to be obvious that scabbard is a representation of a church.

But I DON'T AGREE with an upside down theory which is just a wishful thinking here, I suppose, and the result you would like to see it upside down.

First: if the scabbard represents a church why the upside down crosses, or - I'm not familiar with stanic symbolism - but do they ever picture churches upsidedown :confused:

Second, and most important, the image with hilt downside is the proper side! Take a look at the most of the European swords, and blades inscriptions, including crosses (i.e. Hungarian ones) - with your theory every one of them would be satanic, upside down!

Regards!

While I am no expert on the subject the upside down crosses were used in satanic rituals during the time when black masses were done. These were even at times done in an actual church with the crucifix turned upside down. There are historical references to the black mass going back into the 1600's, perhaps even before that. Some books on satanism say there is recorded the arrest of a French baron, Gilles de Rais, who was accused of conducting Black Masses in the cellar of his castle. The accusation claimed that he kidnapped, tortured, and murdered more than 140 children as sacrifices. He was executed in 1440. In 1500 some say the cathedral chapter of Cambrai held Black Masses in protest against their bishop. Some references speak of a priest in Orleans, Gentien le Clerc, tried around 1615, confessed to performing the "Devil's mass". In 1647 the nuns of Louviers claimed that they had been bewitched and possessed, and forced by chaplains to participate naked in masses, defiling the cross and trampling the host. It seems most of the accounts come from France. A good bit published on them in the 1800's ( again mostly from France) and a resurgence in published work around 1960. Catherine Monvoisin and the priest Etienne Guibourg were executed for preforming a black mass for the mistress of Louis XIV( Madame de Montespan). In 1891 Joris-Karl Huysmans wrote about French Satanism in a text called La-Bas. So it depends on what you consider modern as to whether satanism is a "a modern phenomenon" It is true La Vey's Church of Satan or Michael Aquino's Temple of Set are very modern and may not have more than a passing connection to the historical examples.

The cross on the blade may fit with what you say in your second point but are crosses on the scabbard upside down ? And if so did they seem to come from a steeple as these do ? I find what Jim says very interesting as I never thought sheaths were looked at tip up and that is something new I have learned.

I do agree that we all see what we expect or want to see sometimes so I may be doing that here


Not an Atheme scabbard. Could the scabbard be a later addition?

An atheme would not have upside-down or rightside-up cross. Christian symbols are not part of Wicca. Probably not Pagan either. Most likely something else.

Maybe satanist or some anti-christian cult.

Cauldrons have three legs and are more spherical.

Blade does look like a reshaped sword blade. Particularly the way the fullers go up into the handle.

I like it.

Bill I know arthames are used in wiccan and some celtic ritual now but was not the dagger used for satanic ritual also called an arthame, but I could be totally wrong on that, again I need to check LaVey or Aleister Crowley. and of course even if they used the term it does not mean they used it correctly.


Beautiful dagger. The scabbard does seem to be a representation of a church. I see nothing that would ID the woman as Lilith. I would assume she is more likely a high priestess. I would also stop short of referring to this as a "satanic" dagger, though it is most like to be for pagan purposes. Just because it may not be from a Judeo-Christian tradition doesn't necessarily make it "satanic". :)

David
I completly agree with you that all that is pagan is not satanic. And this may indeed be a dagger for some other use. Either way the symbolism on it facinates me and makes me want to know more. When I use the term "satanic" I use it in the historical context of above.


Lastly as to the "caldron" I do not believe older caldrons fit the image we think of today. And the caldron is a very old symbol. Here is a link to a picture from a shipwreck dating to 200 BC in the Mediterranean, the picture is identified as a cooking caldron among amphora

http://www.seaword.org/images/caldron.jpg

and a reproduction of a medieval "caldron"
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/images/cd-1301.jpg

Of course it could just as well be a tambourine as mentioned above

One thing we all agree on is the workmanship and attention to detail is excellent

[David]

Bill I know arthames are used in wiccan and some celtic ritual now but was not the dagger used for satanic ritual also called an arthame, but I could be totally wrong on that, again I need to check LaVey or Aleister Crowley

Despite relishing in being called the "Great Beast" there is nothing in the writings of Crowley which leads me to believe he was in any way a satanist. LaVey was a self-proclaimed modern satanist whose practice was pretty much a modern invention. I doubt you will find much useful info in his writings. His rituals were based on ritual lodge magick of the 19thC (the Golden Dawn) so it is likely you would find the use of a dagger in them, but it hardly points to any satanic origin. The stories of "black masses" mostly come from a Christian perspective, making the stories of these early "satanists" highly suspect. Any claim made by modern satanists to knowledge of practicing the "authentic" black mass is sketchy at best.
The use of a dagger as an item in ritual magick really came into vogue in 19thC lodge magick, where a specific magickal weapon is assigned to each of the 4 elements of fire, water, air and earth, the dagger/sword belonging to the element of air. The Golden Dawn magicians created a magickal philosophy, based on Christianity, Qabalistic thought, Rosicrusian writings from the 17thC and Eastern philosophies. Gerald Gardner (once a member of the G.D. and a student of Crowley), known as the father of modern Wicca (and interestingly the author of The Kris and other Malay Weapons) continued the elemental importance of the dagger when he invented modern Wicca, changing it's attribution to fire instead of air. In all probability his experiences with the keris in Indonesia was important in forming his theories on the athame's importance in the Wiccan religion. I have serious doubts that the dagger had the same kind of intellectual importance in early (pre-Golden Dawn) Western magickal societies. The dagger probably had a more practical purpose, to be used in animal sacrifice. Probably a special dagger was used, but because i don't think it was assigned the same intellectual importance the latter occultists gave it i wonder if anything as specifically designed as the dagger presented here would have been created back in the day for such a purpose. So if there are such things as "satanic" daggers i doubt they are much more than a century old.

[David]

Some books on satanism say there is recorded the arrest of a French baron, Gilles de Rais, who was accused of conducting Black Masses in the cellar of his castle. The accusation claimed that he kidnapped, tortured, and murdered more than 140 children as sacrifices. He was executed in 1440. In 1500 some say the cathedral chapter of Cambrai held Black Masses in protest against their bishop. Some references speak of a priest in Orleans, Gentien le Clerc, tried around 1615, confessed to performing the "Devil's mass". In 1647 the nuns of Louviers claimed that they had been bewitched and possessed, and forced by chaplains to participate naked in masses, defiling the cross and trampling the host. It seems most of the accounts come from France.

Keep in mind that these confessions were obtained by the inquistion through torture. I person might confess to just about anything under those circumstances. BTW, there is a wonderfully interesting film called "The Devils" that gives a very different perspective on the nuns "bewitched" by the priest in Louviers. Likewise it is doubtful that the church executed too many actual witches during the witch hunts. :)

[RhysMichael]

Thanks for the information on the term Arthame. I was mistaken to use that term then.

It is true the writings of the 1800's are said tell vitually nothing of the ritual of the black mass and are totally from the perpective of the church. And yes many of the confessions during this time should be considered suspect or fabrications, I personally however see satanism as a natural course that rebellion to the church could take and the more restrictive the church the more appealing satanism would be to some people.

My comment on the monstrous and tormented faces on cherubs above are also in line with your comment "The church used to love to show torment to scare it's paritioners into being good." There is a tudor home near here that was brought over from england and reassembled here. It has historical furniture and some of the beds have such features right where you would have to look at them as you sleep.

An interesting subject
Thanks

[David]

Then again, the tormented faces could refer to gargoyles of Notre Dame or to the Hunchback himself.
I dug these images up. sorry they are so small. :shrug:

[spiral]

Thanks David, Rhysmichael interesting points.

I just found this online passage which may be of intrest?

The first satanic cult which possibly existed was operated by Catherine La Voisin at the Court of the French monarch Louis XIV. Although some historians are skeptical, the documents of the inquiry by Nicholas de la Reynie, the Police Chief of the king -- who was not a particularly religious man but a rather cold and stubborn policeman -- published by the 19th century historian François Ravaisson-Mollien, make a persuasive case for the celebration of "Black Masses" (the term was coined by La Voisin herself) at the Court of Louis XIV. "Black Masses" were described as rituals mocking the Roman Catholic Mass, in which Catholic hosts were desecrated through sex rituals and children were occasionally sacrificed to the Devil in order to obtain power and love for the wealthy customers of La Voisin [2]. La Reynie's police effectively destroyed the cult, but the emerging press made the incident infamous for decades in Europe and copycat imitations surfaced during the 18th century and during the French Revolution. These episodes were connected by pious Catholic authors to the Revolution itself, which they believed had been masterminded by anti-Catholic Satanists.


The "gargoyle heads" as called under a lens are clearly not Gargoyles , but human faces one dejected & unhappy the other covered in boils, both wear Jewish or I would say more likely bishops skull caps.

I understand French & German satanist knives are well recorded from at least in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. But certanly many are later.

Intresting images David, scenes of goat sacrifice with dagger & pan from "the devil rides out" seem more in keeping with such a clearly potentialy lethal design of blade. :D

Spiral

[David]

[QUOTE=spiralI understand French & German satanist knives are well recorded from at least in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century. But certanly many are later.l[/QUOTE]

Spiral, why "certainly"? I am not sure what you are basing this assuption on. Have you seen or do you have any links to photos of "satanic" blades that pre-date the late 19thC. :confused:
I am well aware of the stories of Catherine La Voisin, but much of her legend is just that and beyond any definable fact. She apparently claimed to have sacrificed 2500 children, but there was hardly a rash of missing children in her area during her run in France. The 'black mass" is not necessarily a satanic thing, it is just a rebelious anti-Christian thing. It doesn't necessarily require the belief in Satan as one's god nor the evil doings such as child sacrifice that the stories of satanism would have one believe were common practice for these cults. As i stated earlier "satanic" is a loaded term that is probably best left behind.
This could still be meant as a ritual weapon i am leaning more towards the Hunchback attribution.

[Emanuel]

Hi Spiral, cool knife.

I think the "Huntchback of Notre-Dame" link is quite strong. The church is a stylized depiction of Notre-Dame itself if you compare with David's picture and others: Three portals on the first level, one rose window in the central bay flanked by twin towers each with a two-lancet window within a blind arch on the second. The third level features a ballustrade in the central bay and two thin rectangular windows in each adjacent tower. These towers once had peaked roofs if I recall correctly and the tall roof in the middle is actually the spire above the crossing the church as it would be seen from the front. And the figure is the spitting image of Esmeralda, down to the locket with her baby shoe. The figures on the ends of the guard could be the huntchback himself and Dom Frolo, the priest who covetted Esmeralda. I guess a real romantic put the dagger together.

Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

Yikes, I had no idea there was such knowledge on the 'black arts' here!!:)
Scary stuff!!
Actually we have had discussions on these esoteric knives termed 'athame' about seven years ago, and discussions got pretty interesting. The term athame is thought to possibly derive from 'attame' (Fr.=to cut or pierce) and it is noted that 'athe' (Gk.=Godless), however there is no agreed upon etymological reference as far as I know.
Interestingly the variant term 'arthame' seems to derive from the term used to refer to the knife in a 1930's horror movie "The Master of Crabs" !
(I'm still choking on dust from dragging out these old notes from those discussions years ago! :)

Apparantly the concept of the athame is ceremonial, and supposedly its use is much like that of the Tibetan phurbu in ethereal sense. It is theoretically an extension of self and used to direct the flow of energy or will, to invoke or banish. It is used to guide energy from self to the circle etc. and so on in the complexities of these wiccan ceremonies. Naturally in earlier times there is likely some sacrificial use implicated, but those situations are avoided in most explanatory information.

As mentioned, I had noted that I had thought these decorated scabbards were to be viewed point up, but must admit that although I had seen some reference somewhere with comments to that effect concerning looking at the sword, I honestly cannot relocate that item. Actually, I simply considered the structure of the church and obviously the doors had to be shown at the wider part of the scabbard, while the peak of the church would narrow toward the tip or point. It would seem silly to think that the doors would be seen upside down, on the roof ?(reminds me of the kids game with interlocked fingers about the church and steeple, of course I always got it wrong and my people were on the roof!!:)
Also, in discussions of the sword, the blade is often termed the 'root' of the blade, thus at the hand, and grows upward. In edged weapon esoterica, the Indian katar is often decorated with the 'kundalini' flame, which originates at the root of the blade, and burns upward, thus the blade would be viewed point upward. I believe these were the basis of my comment.

In finally looking at the Holbein daggers I mentioned, the decoration is shown in linear, that is viewed sideways ,so it would seem there is no set manner in viewing a scabbard as I had suggested. I apologize for my assumption and for the unsupported statement.

Returning to the dagger, it seems that about mid 16th century, decorative sheath designs began to become popular, most notably the Holbein examples I have mentioned. Apparantly Hans Holbein (the younger) published his book "The Dance of Death" in Lyons c.1523, and created scabbards with macabre theme based on his drawings. Later other examples took scenes from Roman and Swiss history as well as Old Testament themes. It would seem that this decorative theme motif on daggers and sheaths extended through Europe, and this example, though certainly much later of course, is carrying out its theme from literary sources in the same manner.

Best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Jim, David and RhysMichael, fantastic posts! You got me reading all about Wiccans now :)
I wonder how much of the witch craze of the 16th-17th centuries was based on actual witch/satanic convents and how much on poor old women who knew a great deal of botany and medicine.
Regards,
Emanuel

[wolviex]

I'm not going to claim that we should always look at the scabbard point up, and the blade example was just an example. What we have here is just, let's call it, 'artistic programme' which is intended to be viewed point up. In other case it wouldn't make any sense and, as Jim pointed it out, because you couldn't make a church with doors at narrower point. If someone would like to make any "occultic" upside-down crosses he wouldn't make a case with a church what is a lot of work.
The artistic programme might be different. We can see horizontal ones just like in Holbeins daggers and aswell there are horizontal inscriptions on the blade. Some of scabbards decoration are made point down and are making a whole composition with a handle. So there is no rule but logicality.
In my museum there is similiar in style dagger when you can see Otello with knife killing Desdemona, and it's pure romantic, 19th c. creation and yours looks just like that. It would be interesting to find out more iconographic sources for this lady.

[spiral]

Spiral, why "certainly"? I am not sure what you are basing this assuption on. Have you seen or do you have any links to photos of "satanic" blades that pre-date the late 19thC. :confused:
As i stated earlier "satanic" is a loaded term that is probably best left behind.
This could still be meant as a ritual weapon i am leaning more towards the Hunchback attribution.


David, In Archaological, calander & historical terms "later" means more recently, not older. ;)

Spiral

[spiral]

Hi Spiral, cool knife.

I think the "Huntchback of Notre-Dame" link is quite strong. The church is a stylized depiction of Notre-Dame itself if you compare with David's picture and others: Three portals on the first level, one rose window in the central bay flanked by twin towers each with a two-lancet window within a blind arch on the second. The third level features a ballustrade in the central bay and two thin rectangular windows in each adjacent tower. These towers once had peaked roofs if I recall correctly and the tall roof in the middle is actually the spire above the crossing the church as it would be seen from the front. And the figure is the spitting image of Esmeralda, down to the locket with her baby shoe. The figures on the ends of the guard could be the huntchback himself and Dom Frolo, the priest who covetted Esmeralda. I guess a real romantic put the dagger together.

Emanuel

Thankyou Manolo, Having spent days looking at photos of European churches & cathedrals online & having prioviosly visited Notre Damne , I agree the scabbards appearance shows many similarities, but if you compare it to many French & some Scandanavien,German & Swiss churches you will see many other similarities.

For instance Some one spent many hours chasing a particilar tile or shingle shape on the roof of this scabbards, which obviously doesnt match Notre Damn.

When one looks for Similarities in Churches they are easy to find, to be objective one needs to look for the differences as well.

Spiral

[spiral]

Yikes, I had no idea there was such knowledge on the 'black arts' here!!:)
Scary stuff!!


As mentioned, I had noted that I had thought these decorated scabbards were to be viewed point up, but must admit that although I had seen some reference somewhere with comments to that effect concerning looking at the sword, I honestly cannot relocate that item. Actually, I simply considered the structure of the church and obviously the doors had to be shown at the wider part of the scabbard, while the peak of the church would narrow toward the tip or point. It would seem silly to think that the doors would be seen upside down, on the roof ?(reminds me of the kids game with interlocked fingers about the church and steeple, of course I always got it wrong and my people were on the roof!!:)
Also, in discussions of the sword, the blade is often termed the 'root' of the blade, thus at the hand, and grows upward. In edged weapon esoterica, the Indian katar is often decorated with the 'kundalini' flame, which originates at the root of the blade, and burns upward, thus the blade would be viewed point upward. I believe these were the basis of my comment.

In finally looking at the Holbein daggers I mentioned, the decoration is shown in linear, that is viewed sideways ,so it would seem there is no set manner in viewing a scabbard as I had suggested. I apologize for my assumption and for the unsupported statement.

Returning to the dagger, it seems that about mid 16th century, decorative sheath designs began to become popular, most notably the Holbein examples I have mentioned. Apparantly Hans Holbein (the younger) published his book "The Dance of Death" in Lyons c.1523, and created scabbards with macabre theme based on his drawings. Later other examples took scenes from Roman and Swiss history as well as Old Testament themes. It would seem that this decorative theme motif on daggers and sheaths extended through Europe, and this example, though certainly much later of course, is carrying out its theme from literary sources in the same manner.

Best regards,
Jim


Thankyou Jim, intresting stuff! Thankyou for taking the time.

Although the blade is liklely to be originaly from The Holbien period, i am sure the scabbord & handle are later.

The closet things I can find {as mentioned} in exotic cast handle pieces, is in the wallace collection that was a gift from Napolean III to the 4th Marques in 1860.

& the of course the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/dagger5.jpg



Which shows the satanic motifs on the scabbard the right way up when the figural handle is upright. {which after all seems the logical way to study a figural piece.} But the signs of Liberty upside down.

Both of which are clearly veiwed handle upright.


For Wolviex & others who clearly havent seen such similar things heres 2 other examples.

Another spiecimien,

http://www.antiqueswords.com/images/mw57-4.jpg

From Liongate Arms & armour. http://www.antiqueswords.com/mw57.htm

& a "later" example. {Which means more recently for those who were unaware. ;) }

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/dagger.jpg


Spiral

[David]

& a "later" example. {Which means more recently for those who were unaware. ;) }

Spiral, really no need for you to continue to rub this in. It was late when i responded and i simply misread you. One remark i can laugh with you, the second is unnecessary.
Thanks for the photos of these beautifully crafted daggers. I do question the assumption (not just on your part) that any dagger depicting the devil is necessarily a satanic ritual tool used in some dark rite. Sometimes art is just art. I think dealers are quick to put such a tag on these items because the concept of "evil" fascinates many and they think (correctly) that the items will command higher prices. Blades like the last one, IMO, have no distinct satanic symbolism. Skulls and snakes do not necessarily point to satanism. Skulls and skeletal forms have been used in art by many cultures over the centuries and are not necessarially negative images. Snakes aren't either for that matter and in many cases signify life and regeneration. The skull is a very common Mason symbol for one.
The inverted liberty torch is very interesting in your first example, but i wonder if it doesn't have more of a political reference than a spiritual one. It's placement between a winged caduseus legged demon and an owl, a symbol of wisdom is very intriguing. It would be nice to see some closer images of this. Doesn't look like it's seen much use though. ;)

[spiral]

Spiral, really no need for you to continue to rub this in. It was late when i responded and i simply misread you. One remark i can laugh with you, the second is unnecessary.
Thanks for the photos of these beautifully crafted daggers. I do question the assumption (not just on your part) that any dagger depicting the devil is necessarily a satanic ritual tool used in some dark rite. Sometimes art is just art. I think dealers are quick to put such a tag on these items because the concept of "evil" fascinates many and they think (correctly) that the items will command higher prices. Blades like the last one, IMO, have no distinct satanic symbolism. Skulls and snakes do not necessarily point to satanism. Skulls and skeletal forms have been used in art by many cultures over the centuries and are not necessarially negative images. Snakes aren't either for that matter and in many cases signify life and regeneration. The skull is a very common Mason symbol for one.
The inverted liberty torch is very interesting in your first example, but i wonder if it doesn't have more of a political reference than a spiritual one. It's placement between a winged caduseus legged demon and an owl, a symbol of wisdom is very intriguing. It would be nice to see some closer images of this. Doesn't look like it's seen much use though. ;)

Spiral, really no need for you to continue to rub this in. It was late when i responded and i simply misread you. One remark i can laugh with you, the second is unnecessary.
Thanks for the photos of these beautifully crafted daggers. I do question the assumption (not just on your part) that any dagger depicting the devil is necessarily a satanic ritual tool used in some dark rite. Sometimes art is just art. I think dealers are quick to put such a tag on these items because the concept of "evil" fascinates many and they think (correctly) that the items will command higher prices. Blades like the last one, IMO, have no distinct satanic symbolism. Skulls and snakes do not necessarily point to satanism. Skulls and skeletal forms have been used in art by many cultures over the centuries and are not necessarially negative images. Snakes aren't either for that matter and in many cases signify life and regeneration. The skull is a very common Mason symbol for one.
The inverted liberty torch is very interesting in your first example, but i wonder if it doesn't have more of a political reference than a spiritual one. It's placement between a winged caduseus legged demon and an owl, a symbol of wisdom is very intriguing. It would be nice to see some closer images of this. Doesn't look like it's seen much use though. ;)

Yes Indeed sorry you took offence David it was early in the morning when i replied.

The first mention was a factual correction for you, I didnt imagine that would make you laugh, the second was meant to be the humour. Sorry that it fell flat for you. Written humour can be hard to interprit sometimes.

Religion & politics are very closely aligned i think, they are both often used by some to control others. I was under the impresion that what helped found many aristocratic satanist groups as a way of retaining the power they had lost to Politicians & clergy.

I would percieve the torches upside down as turning liberty on its head.

An owl is also a common satanic symbol , often refered to as moloch to whom human sacrifices are made.

I have further pictures of these daggers & others but without gaining the permision of the currant owners I am not prepared to post them.

i agree dealers like to make money, but both those mentioned are well known for thier expertise & in BRLs case especialy with American & European knives.

I am visiting a curator who specialises in theology,old occult,pagan, satanist etc. artifacts,books & symbolism next week for his veiw.

Since posting this here & elswere I have had a couple of offers from people who collect such items {or who have a "friend" who does in one case, whom seem in no doubt about what it is.}

I think the nature of the beast sends up a lot of denial from people.

Ive been researching this for 6 weeks & hoped someone here might actualy be able to add to the facts that i have been accumilating about these re. date & origin. Or be able to illustrate thier points against with other examples of such pieces & thier "christian group or fantasy piece" evidence.

Although numerous comments generaly from people totaly outside thier fields of expieriance or expertise are intresting I have yet to see anything of factual substance or even an awarness that such things exist!

Seems rather like wishfull thinking to me.

Perhaps an ethnographic arms forum wasnt the right place to post this.

Spiral

[Emanuel]

Hi Spiral,
On the last dagger you posted, does the helm visor actually swivel open and shut over the skeleton or is it just my impression? Very fine craftsmanship on these items.

Here's a thought about the "gipsy woman" dagger: if holding the dagger so the figure is seen upright, the church is upside down. In this case, she could be seen as dancing over the reversed church and mocking the Church. Gipsies are an image of chaos and anarchy I think, so perhaps the dagger represents the overturning of the Church by chaotic liberalism. It would fit the troubled times of the early 19th century, and could arguably be disguised as an artistic object reflecting literary sources - Hugo maybe.

Emanuel

[David]

Well actually Spiral, i laughed the first time and sorta said "duh!" to myself, so the second time around it was getting old. No offense really. :)
I think you may have misunderstood my position. I am not denying that satanic groups have and do exist. I do, however, think some of these blades may have been misinterpreted. I actually think people are more likely to jump to the conclusion that things are satanic, often when they are not. The early church, and to some extent the present one, would consider anything non-Christian to have a satanic root. The owl can be seen as a representative of Moloch, but for me it is a stretch to connect old pre-Christian gods with satanism even if they were rumored to perform human sacrifices.
I think it is very important to realize the source of the stories of satanic cults before we buy any of the infomation they present without a large grain of salt. No, this doesn't mean that i am in denial that such cults have and do exist, but i do seriously downplay the conspiratorial hype surrounding these stories. Groups were often labelled satanic by the church simply because they had gained too much power for the comfort level of the church and local governments. See the story of the knights Templars for instance. It was also said of them that initiates had to spit on and trample the cross and that they prayed to a head in a box called Baphomet. What the church and the government really wanted were all their fertile lands in the south of France. They also started the European banking system and many powerful people owed them money. I guess they must be satanists, eh? ;) I have studied the occult and it's histories now for nearly 30 years, so perhaps i have a different perspective on it than most. I do know that things are not always what they seem nor what they would have us believe. :)

[Tim Simmons]

I cannot see anything scary or "satanic" in these knives. The images are just allegorical and mimic the late renaissance art styles and taste. They are just the Franklin Mint fantasy daggers of their day all be of very good quality. Similar quality of work can be found on late 19th century meat carving sets with rather more domestic imagery. IMHO.

[Tim Simmons]

Here are two late 16th century bronze pieces that show this late renaissance style. This style is in many ways a classical revival with some added vigor.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/F001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/F002.jpg

And finally a "satanic" candle stick made by Minton & Co 1859. A fine example of the 19th century renaissance revival. Put a black candle in it and we can all scream satanic abuse. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/F003.jpg

[spiral]

Hi Spiral,
On the last dagger you posted, does the helm visor actually swivel open and shut over the skeleton or is it just my impression? Very fine craftsmanship on these items.

Here's a thought about the "gipsy woman" dagger: if holding the dagger so the figure is seen upright, the church is upside down. In this case, she could be seen as dancing over the reversed church and mocking the Church. Gipsies are an image of chaos and anarchy I think, so perhaps the dagger represents the overturning of the Church by chaotic liberalism. It would fit the troubled times of the early 19th century, and could arguably be disguised as an artistic object reflecting literary sources - Hugo maybe.

Emanuel


Yes indeed it does Emanuel if you look at the photos again you will see some with visor open, some closed.

Spiral

[spiral]

Well actually Spiral, i laughed the first time and sorta said "duh!" to myself, so the second time around it was getting old. No offense really. :)
I think you may have misunderstood my position. I am not denying that satanic groups have and do exist. I do, however, think some of these blades may have been misinterpreted. I actually think people are more likely to jump to the conclusion that things are satanic, often when they are not. The early church, and to some extent the present one, would consider anything non-Christian to have a satanic root. The owl can be seen as a representative of Moloch, but for me it is a stretch to connect old pre-Christian gods with satanism even if they were rumored to perform human sacrifices.
I think it is very important to realize the source of the stories of satanic cults before we buy any of the infomation they present without a large grain of salt. No, this doesn't mean that i am in denial that such cults have and do exist, but i do seriously downplay the conspiratorial hype surrounding these stories. Groups were often labelled satanic by the church simply because they had gained too much power for the comfort level of the church and local governments. See the story of the knights Templars for instance. It was also said of them that initiates had to spit on and trample the cross and that they prayed to a head in a box called Baphomet. What the church and the government really wanted were all their fertile lands in the south of France. They also started the European banking system and many powerful people owed them money. I guess they must be satanists, eh? ;) I have studied the occult and it's histories now for nearly 30 years, so perhaps i have a different perspective on it than most. I do know that things are not always what they seem nor what they would have us believe. :)

I agree with much of what you say. Particularily "I do know that things are not always what they seem nor what they would have us believe. "

I was reading Colin Wilsons stuff 30 years ago muyself, & much sinse but I have only been researching this for 6 weeks.

Its intresting some satanists & collectors of these see the owl as Moloch & you saw it as the owl of wisdom.

Indeed so much is open to interpritation.

Spiral

[spiral]

I cannot see anything scary or "satanic" in these knives. The images are just allegorical and mimic the late renaissance art styles and taste. They are just the Franklin Mint fantasy daggers of their day all be of very good quality. Similar quality of work can be found on late 19th century meat carving sets with rather more domestic imagery. IMHO.

I always find your veiws & opinions on evry item I have ever posted Tim, highly entertaining. thankyou for that.

i would be very concerned if you thought it looked like anything i thought it was. :D

Spiral

[spiral]

Here are two late 16th century bronze pieces that show this late renaissance style. This style is in many ways a classical revival with some added vigor.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/F001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/F002.jpg

And finally a "satanic" candle stick made by Minton & Co 1859. A fine example of the 19th century renaissance revival. Put a black candle in it and we can all scream satanic abuse. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/F003.jpg

Your realy cluthching at straws now Tim! :D

Show me some figural knives from this period, with satanic, christian or any other symbolism on them so we can have a serious discusian.


Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

This is a 16th century knife which shows the origination of this style. I can illustrate the 19th century version with many other artifacts but you want knives so it may take a little longer. I do not intend to antagonise it is just that I make this sort of thing for a living. I have to know about art and art history. I would be happy to show examples.

[David]

Actually i am not much of a fan on Colin Wilson's take on occult history (although i find some of his science fiction entertaining).
I am curious how you imagine these "satanic" daggers were used. Were they merely for ceremonial dress or do you think they were actually used for blood sacrifice? Some of them, like the one with the owl motif, look pristine, as if they were hardly ever handled. Do you know whether this blade is edge sharp? What about yours? The example with the helmuted skeleton appears to use an old bayonet blade which doesn't seem edge sharp. Neither does the one from Liongate. It seems logical to me that for a blade to be a useful sacrifical tool it would need a very sharp edge.

[Tim Simmons]

This German glass chalice "for sacrificial blood" Bavaria 1855 has many of the elements seen in the knife that started the thread. It could be seen as a touch subversive which indeed may well have been the intentional edge to the piece, if one is to bring to mind the rather stifling muscular church influence on life.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/F005.jpg

[spiral]

This is a 16th century knife which shows the origination of this style. I can illustrate the 19th century version with many other artifacts but you want knives so it may take a little longer. I do not intend to antagonise it is just that I make this sort of thing for a living. I have to know about art and art history. I would be happy to show examples.


Thankyou Tim that is nearer the mark. More detail would be nice.

Can you tell me whether there was any differance in the style of the 19th century casters from Germany & France? or would thier work be identical?

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

I do not think I can post a better picture. What can be seen is the astrological figure aquarius. This is at the time people were burnt as witches or heretics or for just being bloody awkward. So this serving/table knife was in its day a bit racy. Perhaps that is why it survives.

[spiral]

Actually i am not much of a fan on Colin Wilson's take on occult history (although i find some of his science fiction entertaining).
I am curious how you imagine these "satanic" daggers were used. Were they merely for ceremonial dress or do you think they were actually used for blood sacrifice? Some of them, like the one with the owl motif, look pristine, as if they were hardly ever handled. Do you know whether this blade is edge sharp? What about yours? The example with the helmuted skeleton appears to use an old bayonet blade which doesn't seem edge sharp. Neither does the one from Liongate. It seems logical to me that for a blade to be a useful sacrifical tool it would need a very sharp edge.


Me niether I just recall it as the first book of that ilk I read. ;)

I am under the impresion that they were altar pieces also used in sacrifices & intiation cerimonys.

I thnk the BRL example is sharp, apparently many of these knives have the same blades as the daggers used by Napoleans mamelukes of the Imperial Guard.

cross section x Bayonets are only good for stabbing of course.

I presume the people who paid to have them made used them for any purpoise they wished?

Thats how humans usualy behave. IMHO

Spiral

[spiral]

I do not think I can post a better picture. What can be seen is the astrological figure aquarius. This is at the time people were burnt as witches or heretics or for just being bloody awkward. So this serving/table knife was in its day a bit racy. Perhaps that is why it survives.


Thankyou Tim,

Some says it was the Medical proffesion that helped perpetrate the last round of European witchburnigs to get rid of the herbal health/ complimentry medicene practioners as competition.

I have no idea whether that is plausible though?

Spiral

[katana]

Gentlemen......I think that to determine the daggers use ...we should investigate further, the possible associations with Hugo's 'Hunchback of Notre Dame', there are so many links to the story and possible symbolism with the 'true' context of the Authors work that this dagger pocesses.

The hilt form already has already been discussed to a degree. The knife in 'Esmorelda's' waistband is paramount to the story......she is (falsely) accused of atempted murder, by stabbing....later excecuted because of this.
In the story she is shown as opening carrying one....

"Mademoiselle Esmeralda," said the poet, "let us come to terms. I am not a clerk of the court, and I shall not go to law with you for thus carrying a dagger in Paris, in the teeth of the ordinances and prohibitions of M. the Provost. Nevertheless, you are not ignorant of the fact that Noel Lescrivain was condemned, a week ago, to pay ten Parisian sous, for having carried a cutlass."

The scabbard with all its archetectual design.....shows clearly 3 arched doorways........ this is a quote from a synopsis of Chapter 3...

As the narrator remarks: "Time is blind, man stupid." Nevertheless, he emphasizes the beautiful specimens of architecture that remain, especially the three porches with their pointed arches, leading up to a "vast symphony of stone."

The goat on the hilt was originally interpreted as 'satanic'...however..

"...., the symbol of the satanic goat, usually portrayed as a half human, half goat figure, or a goat head. It is often misinterpreted as a symbol of witch-craft in general. It is used by Satanists, but is not used by neo-pagan witches who do not worship the devil.
The origin of the Baphomet is unclear. It may be a corruption of Muhomet (Mohammed). The english witchcraft historian Montague Summers suggested that it was a combination of two greek words, baphe and metis, meaning "absorption of knowledge." Baphomet has also been called the Goat of Mendes, The Black Goat and the Judas Goat.

One more 'snippet'.............the dagger is 'crucifix hilted' , why would a satanist use a 'symbol of Christ'.......Surely a true satanist dagger would not have....or even need a crossguard :shrug:

[spiral]

One more 'snippet'.............the dagger is 'crucifix hilted' , why would a satanist use a 'symbol of Christ'.......Surely a true satanist dagger would not have....or even need a crossguard :shrug:


Excelent points to ponder & illustration of possibilites Katana , thankyou. Good research! ;)

I would say if you google the various towns & city of europe for churches & cathedrals you will finf many such doorways though.

Linking a dagger to the story is excelent! I have seen lovely French figurine knives of the 1850 to 1870 period in my research, so they do exist. I was hoping some would post more pictures of them but they seeem rather rare.

But so do & are Satanist daggers, interpritation is the key.

Any input on the bishops or Jews with boils & faces of misery in the book?

But re you last point, I would say that if ever you are unfortuanate & unlucky enough to to stab someone or something & hit a bone you will see why most daggers have a crossgaurd. ;)


Heres another intresting point of construction.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/d21.jpg

The blade is drilled lengthwise & threaded into a steel bolt in the hilt.

Has anyone found a dagger of such construction before?



Spiral

[spiral]

Double post :rolleyes:

[RhysMichael]

The owl can be seen as a representative of Moloch, but for me it is a stretch to connect old pre-Christian gods with satanism even if they were rumored to perform human sacrifices. :)

You bring up a very good point here and that is that many of the symbols seen in modern religion ( Christian or Satanic ) and modern societal use pre-date Christianity. The fish used by christianity supposedly before the cross and still into today is also a very ancient symbol used by other religions, such as Buddhists and Pagans. At the risk of upsetting some ( and I am Roman Catholic so I understand how some could be upset by this I hope they will not ) there are parrallels between parts of the mass and the pagan rituals that the church often knowing adopted to help with getting conversions. Aristaeus , from Greek Mythology, son of the god Apollo and the nymph Cyrene, was often represented as a youthful shepherd carrying a lamb. The head of the fish forming a mitre above the head of a man, was used to represent the fish god Dagon, Some attribute the mitre which the Pope wears to beginning here. A dove, sometimes with an olive branch in its mouth, which is supposed to represent peace or the Holy Spirit today, and which supposedly was taken from either the story of when Noah sent the dove from the ark and it came back with the olive twig; or the Dove descending on Christ at His baptism, before that it represented Juno, the queen of heaven. Even the cross can be seen used in other religions. I believe there are crosses as Hindu symbolism, in Babylon they were used to represent the worship of sun gods and some say it was not until Emperor Constantine that they were used for christianity. The upside down cross often again associated with satanism is in some circles called Peter's cross as St. Peter is said to have been crucified upside down

So again to get to the point I was speaking of before rambling. All symbolism, including or perhaps particularly that on weapons can and will be interpreted differently by different groups based on their context. We may not be able to establish the context or the symbolism until we know why and when the knife was made and we may not be able to tell where and why it was made until we understand the symbolism. Indeed a problem




Groups were often labelled satanic by the church simply because they had gained too much power for the comfort level of the church and local governments.

There is also no question this is true. Such accusations were widely abused because the person was always guilty until proven innocent , which was difficult to do.


BTW to everyone here on all sides of this discussion ( Satanic, Pagan and Hunchback of Notre Dame) I must say a great job of debating the case is being done on all sides.


Spiral
IMHO the way the blade is attached would again point towards this being a ritual or decorative item and never really designed for much use.

[Emanuel]

Wouldn't that strange construction exclude use as a weapon - sacrificial or otherwise? The short fillet wouldn't hold the blade too well in a stab would it? In my mind this adds to the possibility of the dagger being an artistic/decorative object...or if intended for some cult ceremony then certainly only for show, not use? Do you know hoe the other daggers you posted were constructed?
I wonder why use such construction? The original blade would have had a tang no? I would surmise the creator of this piece took a broken blade he had at hand and gave it a new life as a romantic -or be it ceremonial/cult- object to be sold at greater value.

[spiral]

Well most satanic knives are made of recycled or older blades. perhaps they already carried the symbolism as a used weapon?

The threading into the blade is incredibly tight & would certanly not be weakend by a couple of ribs. it is a short tang but locks up incredibly solid.

sure it wouldnt last years of wood chopping but a direct stab, {as all daggers & bayonets are designed for} wouldnt be a problem.

its steel threaded into steel on a 6mm diameter bar. 8mm deep I think an engineer could point out that that is a fairly strong fixing for a dagger.


i am intrigued that considering satanists or whatever they may be called have been around by definition as long as christiantity that there is so much apparent rejection of there bieng types of knife used by them.

even boy scouts used to have thier own blades!



Spiral

[RhysMichael]

i am intrigued that considering satanists or whatever they may be called have been around by definition as long as christiantity that there is so much apparent rejection of there bieng types of knife used by them.
even boy scouts used to have thier own blades!
Spiral

I don't reject satanic daggers having been around and it makes sense to me since the dagger is used in so many different cultural rituals that it too would be used in satanic ones. I do think they would have been very covert items as simply being in the vicinity of one could be cause for execution as a heretic.

I said above I believe there is historical evidence of satanic cults. I agree with David that the accounts were probably exaggerated and the accusations were abused. Those actually involved may have been the ones seeming most pious to their neighbors. Think about when a criminal is caught today and the neighbors talk about how they were always quiet and never caused issues or problems.

I am however open to debate on what the true meaning of the symbols on this dagger are

[spiral]

Agreed!

So am I, but lets face it with 20 odd naysyers it wouldnt be much of a discusian if i didnt at least play devils advocate. ;) :D

Evidence is usefull , conjecture when informed is as well.

Opinions, based on upbringing whether mine or yours, are quite worthless as thats all they are. Especialy if faith becomes involved.


Spiral

[spiral]

I wonder why use such construction? The original blade would have had a tang no? I would surmise the creator of this piece took a broken blade he had at hand and gave it a new life as a romantic -or be it ceremonial/cult- object to be sold at greater value.


I would guess its original blade as a sword was nearer 18 inches? I think that would be right for a 16th century swiss Baselard?

Spiral

[David]

i am intrigued that considering satanists or whatever they may be called have been around by definition as long as christiantity that there is so much apparent rejection of there bieng types of knife used by them.l
Well this is the crux of the matter for me. You say "satanists or whatever they may be called". Once the church gained enough power to rule over large groups of people there most probably arose opposition to their power. The church certainly would consider these people satanist. But they also considered practitioners of any pagan religion satanists. Yet these people were not satanists, that is to say their god or gods were not satan. Certainly these people used knives, but there is not much evidence that they used them in any particular non-Christian rituals. As i mentioned earlier, the dagger as a ritual tool does not really come into mode until relatively recent times, that is, the 19thC. Sure, perhaps a knife would be used in an animal sacrifice, but if this were done in the context of some pagan rite it is unlikely that a knife would be created with such obvious pagan symbolism as to possibly bring down the wrath on the inquisition if such an item were found. Pagans of old were common people who used common tools in ritual ways when it was called for. I have serious doubts that there was much human sacrifice going in Christian Europe, unless, of course, you count the witch burnings and the Albigensian Crusade ("Kill them all...God will know his own"). So i think there is a reason why knives such as these don't seem to appear until the late 18th and early 19th centuries, the Age of Enlightenment. ;) :D At this time many sercet societies were forming. To the common god-fearing Christian they may have appeared "satanic", but i doubt many of them were. Some, perhaps. There is nothing on any of these knives that couldn't be used by some esorteric mystical lodge whose beliefs, in essence may have even been Christian. Skull and cross bones, snakes,owls images of Pan, none of these point to a satanic origin. ALL of them could be used by a satanist, but so could church regalia if used in a disrespectful manner.
I certainly believe many of these daggers have an occult origin and significance. My argument is that they should not be called "satanic". I suggest "occult dagger" instead. That being said, i would still vote for the "Hunchback" story in regards to your dagger Spiral.

[Jim McDougall]

I agree with David, perhaps the term 'occult' would be a much better 'working description' for studying these daggers employed ceremonially by certain groups, referring to the athame of course.
In the case of Spiral's dagger, I am inclined to agree that it is most likely a 19th century theme dagger that reflects the same literary inspiration seen in the early Swiss daggers referenced in my earlier post. The Victorian period is well known for heightened romanticism of this nature and the popularization of 'Gothic literature' . On that note, I very much like the literary detection done by Katana! :) I am quite convinced that Yannis' observation of the depiction of Esmeralda on this dagger is correct and extremely astute!

I also think that this thread has become extremely interesting, especially since much of the ritual and ceremonial use of the 'athame' corresponds with the metaphysical aspects of certain weapons of this type in numerous cultures, with the Tibetan 'phurbu' as an example. In this sense I think these daggers, despite somewhat sinister associations as interpreted may well be considered worthy of discussion in ethnographic perspective. I also think that the impressive posts that everyone has placed on this thread reveals the comprehensive knowledge of the membership here on even the most esoteric topics and begs to differ with the question of whether this dagger should have been posted on an ethnographic forum....and I am very glad that Spiral did post it here!
Excellent thread guys!! :)

All best regards,
Jim

[Yannis]

Since I wrote the “Huchback” opinion, there are 3 more evidences to agree with it.
1. The knife in the belt, as Katana wrote
2. The item she holds is a tambourine. Please notice the circles.
3. I asked about the dress code of this woman and they told me that only the lower part of society (like a gipsy) would dress like this on the streets of central Europe in early 19th century. Even Disney studios knows that. :rolleyes:

Also, the half man half goat figure is Pan, the ancient Greek god of shepherds and their flocks. He became “satanic” symbol when Christians took the political power. His sins were he enjoyed music, dance and making love in the woods. 2000 years later these are still crimes for some minds.
BTW the word “panic” comes from his name because he could inspire fear if he wished so. So he was a great ally for warriors. Athenians believed that with his help won the Marathon battle when Persians lost their guts.
:D

[Bill M]

My wife Anne just woke up and we read this post together. Having just seen the "Da Vinci Code" on DVD she decided :D ;) :D that the woman is Sophia (Goddess of Wisdom and therefore Owls) about to sacrifice the male goat (Pan) to continue her bloodline.

I suggested that the Pan she (Anne) should be studying is the one to fry / sacrifice the Aeytheric Egg, or universal Ovum over easy for breakfast! ;) :eek:

It is early in the morning here.

"Io Pan, Io Pan, Io Pan. Pan! Pan! Pan!" (Say it slowly, keep it Holy) -- A.Crowley :D :D

[spiral]

Great stuff chaps. A little more substance as we get further into the thread for sure!

I agree with Jim, Occult as a catch all term might be better than satanic.

We all seem to realise & agree this is a European figural knife. 19th century with an older blade.

The questian is whether the symbolism is occult or not.

The popular camp maintains & I agree one can potentialy align the Esmerelda, goat & tambourine to the image if one wishes. I certanly dont rule it out.

But it can also be percieved as A high priestess, goddess, whoever/whatever about to sacrifice the goat & catch the blood in the pan.


Sadley apart from the example Tim was good enough to share there has been littler of substance or fact about these cast Figural knives other than the photos Ive shared. So fan none with scabbards.

Here a further example of the French figural dagger i mentioned earlier that along with the preivios example clearly show the handle is held up right to percieve the scabbard.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s7.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s8.jpg

& the previos example for your convience.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/dagger5.jpg

The church cathedral is clearly not Notre damne, due to numerous features including, spire,roofing shingling, etc.


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s10.jpg

& Notre damn to compare.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y154/PaintUPurple/notre-dame.jpg

As Ive shown 19 th century figural knives are looked at hilt up scabbard down this clearly shows that the church, with it crosses & the added alter sticks are clearly turned upside down. Which clearly is turning the church on its head, which is quite symbolic of anti christian occult, black masses etc.

[spiral]

Here are a few more photos to illustrate some of the features in more detail.


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s6.jpg


http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s14.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s2.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/s3.jpg


It has been suggested to me a theaded bolt into the blade is known German construction of c.1850 to c.1875 period, but I have sadley not got other examples to share.Anyone else?

The tile/shingle appearance on the steeple could certanly have Germanic origins although it also reminds me of Scandanavion work .

So all in all as enjoyable & wide ranging as the "occult" discusian is it would be nice to find some hard evidence to refute my points that i have further illustrated for you. Regarding 19th century cast figural knives whether the occult type or just the custom gift work of wealthy powerfull europeans like the one Ive illustrated from the Wallace collection.


Spiral

[Yannis]

The church cathedral is clearly not Notre damne, due to numerous features including, spire,roofing shingling, etc.



Sorry to disagree but IMHO it is Notre Dame. All the features are there except the roof. Count arches and windows, circles and columns. But it is scabbard, you don’t expect it to be with cubistic double tip, do you?

[David]

"Io Pan, Io Pan, Io Pan. Pan! Pan! Pan!" (Say it slowly, keep it Holy) -- A.Crowley :D :D

;) :)

[spiral]

Sorry to disagree but IMHO it is Notre Dame. All the features are there except the roof. Count arches and windows, circles and columns. But it is scabbard, you don’t expect it to be with cubistic double tip, do you?


Dont be sorry, its ok with me. If I couldnt cope with opinions of others i wouldnt have ever joined this forum. We all have them after all.

I am sure you can write pages of opinions on many subjects, as I can, my previos post also layed out many factual points as well as my opinions. It would be nice if someone can do the same after all opinions are just that. whether mine or yours they are not any form of evidence in relation to this item.

It would be like asknig for my opnion abouts aboriginal weapons or swords of the congo, I would have an opinion , but because the reality is I have no expierience in those areas my opinion would be worthless for factual identification.


It appears so far no one here has any expierience of cast figural european daggers of the 19th century here ? whether occult or otherwise. .

Or any one ever owned such an example? got a book with photos in even?

Anyone? Anything of any substance? whatsoever? ;)


Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

This is a 19th century Italian ? dagger. Swiss guard? Surely some sort of dress dagger for a religious order of knights. The quality of the last few daggers does help put the thread starter in the 19th cent Franklin mint category.

[spiral]

This is a 19th century Italian ? dagger. Swiss guard? Surely some sort of dress dagger for a religious order of knights. The quality of the last few daggers does help put the thread starter in the 19th cent Franklin mint category.

Excelent Tim, I am relieved you regard my piece as "franklin mint" :D

I try not to comment on the quality of items you usualy show.

Thanks for the figural knife, photo as poor as it is it helps proove my point! :D the scabbard is viewed handle upright!

One can see that from the man figured on the scabbard.

excelent.

many thanks for supporting my case. ;)

Spiral

[katana]

If we stick with the idea this dagger is 'Esmeralda themed' I believe further symbolism can be infered.

Esmeralda, is a gypsy, considered a heathen and 'god less' by the Parisians.

Frollo, a principle character, is a priest at Notre Dame, whom because of his carnal desires for Esmeralda, which she ignores, ends up being instrumental in her demise. This member of the church is shown to be weak, an abuser of his position and acts in an 'un-christian' manner towards her.

When Esmeralda first escapes her captors she is taken to Notre Dame to seek 'sanctuary', (whilst in the grounds of the church, the 'law' cannot apprehend her). But later the 'sanctuary' is rescinded and she loses the protection of the church, and is re-captured.

In effect, Esmeralda, an innocent party, is rejected by the 'Church' in her 'hour of need'. The priest whom should protect her, will only help if she 'concedes' to his 'carnal desires' and she was shunned by society as a heathen.
This could be why the symbolism of the hilt being in 'opposition' to the 'church' scabbard is noticeable and significant.

In a way Hugo was, perhaps, against what the 'church' had become.....and that it had lost its way from the Christian teachings that it was 'born from'.

Ironically, her execution could have been avoided if she had relented her belief in honesty and goodness..........if she had been personified as a 'Christian' she could well have been made a Saint

[katana]

Found two images of 19th-century French Satanistic ritual dagger......I personally am not convinced about the description ie 'satanistic'.

Total length 13 1/4", hilt 3 1/3" long. The cast brass hilt depicts a winged entity. Tops of the wings form horns around its head. The triangular blade is most likely from a socket bayonet (widely used in the French army up to c.1850)

The third Image is a 19 century French hunting short sword, double edged...the fullers look very similar to your dagger, blade length 20 3/4". Dated to the “ Napoleonic era"

[spiral]

Found two images of 19th-century French Satanistic ritual dagger......I personally am not convinced about the description ie 'satanistic'.

Total length 13 1/4", hilt 3 1/3" long. The cast brass hilt depicts a winged entity. Tops of the wings form horns around its head. The triangular blade is most likely from a socket bayonet (widely used in the French army up to c.1850)

The third Image is a 19 century French hunting short sword, double edged...the fullers look very similar to your dagger, blade length 20 3/4". Dated to the “ Napoleonic era"


Thanks Katana,

The top one is one I illustrated earlier in the thread Katana. With links to the website its on. ;)

Apparently thats nearer the usual quality of satanic dagger if you speak the people who collect such things.

The French short sword has 2 fullers, there the reasemblace ends. They are very diffent from the cross sectional profile of the occult daggers that I started this thread with.

I have lots of kukri with fullers that to many people,all look the same, but there are many differences if one studys them.

Spiral

[katana]

Thanks Katana,

The top one is one I illustrated earlier in the thread Katana. With links to the website its on. ;)

Spiral

Ooops :o

[David]

I am sure you can write pages of opinions on many subjects, as I can, my previos post also layed out many factual points as well as my opinions. It would be nice if someone can do the same after all opinions are just that. whether mine or yours they are not any form of evidence in relation to this item.

Forgive me Spiral, but while you have posted pictures and related a bit of French history, i fail to see anything in you writing that provides anything but opinion on the original intent of your dagger or, for that matter, any other dagger that has been pictured here. Any of these daggers could have been made purely as a form of artistic expression or with actual ritual intent. So far i have seen no provenence either way, so really it is ALL just opinion. There has been some rather fine deductive reasoning however, mostly pointing in the direction that your dagger has other than occult intent.
:)

[spiral]

Forgive me Spiral, but while you have posted pictures and related a bit of French history, i fail to see anything in you writing that provides anything but opinion on the original intent of your dagger or, for that matter, any other dagger that has been pictured here. Any of these daggers could have been made purely as a form of artistic expression or with actual ritual intent. So far i have seen no provenence either way, so really it is ALL just opinion. There has been some rather fine deductive reasoning however, mostly pointing in the direction that your dagger has other than occult intent.
:)

As I said that my opinions have the same worth as others, that is the recognition of the truth. I can tell what is opinion & what isnt.Whether mine or others. Opinions are merly that, unless the come from a person familiar & expierinced with what is bieng discused. In this case a 19th century European cast Figural knife.

I was hoping that amongst the forumites there might be some one who could provide facts or evidence, about such as figural pieces in which the scabbard would be in the manner Jim first describded, before I questined him on it & offered further examples of Figural pieces, which so far all imply that the church is upside down. Just like the liberty torch on another exampale.

Your last sentance should earn you points with the eggy landlord but thats just gauranteed the kukri he wanted so much hell never get. :D {I can now see why the last seller made sure he never got it either ,even for 12,000 pans. a full 6 times as many as I got it for} excuse me, must be late at night or something. Must be thinking out loud. :D ;)

The factual point of greatest worth from the photos ive posted is all the figural examples with figural scabbards are clearly veiwed handle up.

An upside down, church, crucifxes & alter candels, are symbols of satanism as your 30 years of study will inform you. {Or do you say an upside down crucifix is how it should be?}

Deduction of opinion is still just opinion, intresting yes but unless it comes from someone with expierience it would be like getting a koto katana judged by an African weapons collector. Intresting but possibly wrong & would be tootaly worthless as an appraisel.Whearas if Rich Stein if he had an opinion about it , it would have a much greater weight as he is expierienced in the subject.

As I said in the Rhino thread I always appreciate people who have had lots of hans on expeirience & study there subject in depth. {As I am sure you do with krisses or whatever it is you are into.}


Spiral

Ps.

After the discusian of fullers Heres a couple of fellers with a kukri with a rather well done fuller. :D

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/nathan-bill-jp-sirmoor-666.jpg

It definatly a keeper, same as this figural knife.

Spiral

[katana]

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........


"Watson"
"Yes Holmes"
"The game is afoot..."

[RhysMichael]

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........


"Watson"
"Yes Holmes"
"The game is afoot..."

As I mentioned above the inverted cross can either be a satanic symbol or seen as St Peters Cross depending on context and interpretation. I do not know where the picture was taken but if it was somewhere like St Peters Basilica such a cross would make sense ( and I do not know if the church at the Mount of Beatitudes would have such an association to St Peter) . There is also a St Andrews cross which is like an X ( and this one has a very different interpretation, other than the catholic church one, also that is probably not a good subject for this forum) Both St Andrew and St Peter as the story goes requested to be crucified on a different cross than Christ because they did not feel worthy of dying in the exact same manner he did.

[spiral]

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........


"Watson"
"Yes Holmes"
"The game is afoot..."

The Catholic church does, have problems, The inverted cross you feature appears on many websites pointing that out. ;)

Spiral

[spiral]

Turning a cross upside down is also a common feature of the black mass.

Turning a church upside down doesnt appear represent a belief in christianity. ;)

Spiral

[David]

[QUOTE=spiral
Your last sentance should earn you points with the eggy landlord but thats just gauranteed the kukri he wanted so much hell never get. :D {I can now see why the last seller made sure he never got it either ,even for 12,000 pans. a full 6 times as many as I got it for} excuse me, must be late at night or something. Must be thinking out loud. :D ;)

The factual point of greatest worth from the photos ive posted is all the figural examples with figural scabbards are clearly veiwed handle up.

An upside down, church, crucifxes & alter candels, are symbols of satanism as your 30 years of study will inform you. {Or do you say an upside down crucifix is how it should be?}[/QUOTE]

Well it must be later indeed, since i haven't the foggiest notion what you are on about in this first paragrah. :D :confused: :shrug:
I am afraid that presenting 2 or 3 examples with the figural scabbards viewed handle up is hardly evidence that ALL figural scabbards are intended to be viewed this way. The only fact is that the few examples you have provided point this way. I still think that the church is oriented this way on your scabbard because it is the logical direction given the shape of the object depicted. It just makes sense that the steeple point should be the point of the scabbard. That is, however, merely opinion.
Since you harp on the years of my study, in my 30 yrs. of occult study i have never seen an upside down church used as a symbol of satanism. Certainly crosses have been used that way, but has already been pointed out, the inverse cross is also the cross of St. Peter, so it is merely a matter of perspective. The same can be said of the pentagram The owl is generally looked upon as a positive symbol in most western magical circles. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. Sigils and magickal or arcane alphabets and talismanic signs are more often used to empower ritual items. I see no such signs on any of these daggers.
If you look hard enough one can find 'satanists" everywhere. The church certain did a good job at it for centuries. :rolleyes:

[spiral]

[QUOTE=David]. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. QUOTE]


Rather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down. :rolleyes:

The innocents ones cant see... :D {or dont want to?}


Spiral

Dont mind about the eggy landlord, he knows, thats what matters. :eek: :D

[Yannis]

IF the inverted cross is truly a Satanic symbol......the Catholic Church has problems........

:D

[David]

[QUOTE=spiralRather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down. :rolleyes:

The innocents ones cant see... :D {or dont want to?}
[/QUOTE]

Actually no Spiral, more rather like this. This is, of course, a modern ritual dagger, but it is based on a 19thC design.
As for being an innocent, that's pretty funny. :D If you really knew me you would no doubt think me to be one of your "satanists". :rolleyes:

[katana]

Turning a church upside down doesnt appear represent a belief in christianity. ;)

Spiral

Spiral did you not read the post immediately preceding my post with the 3 pics :confused:

Quote from thread

In effect, Esmeralda, an innocent party, is rejected by the 'Church' in her 'hour of need'. The priest whom should protect her, will only help if she 'concedes' to his 'carnal desires' and she was shunned by society as a heathen.
This could be why the symbolism of the hilt being in 'opposition' to the 'church' scabbard is noticeable and significant.

In a way Hugo was, perhaps, against what the 'church' had become.....and that it had lost its way from the Christian teachings that it was 'born from'.

Ironically, her execution could have been avoided if she had relented her belief in honesty and goodness..........if she had been personified as a 'Christian' she could well have been made a Saint

[Jim McDougall]

Great discourse guys! Lots of excellent observations, uh, and opinions!:)
As much as I have resisted, I must note here that I disagree on Spiral's comments on opinions, especially the implication that they are worthless. Naturally, as he has noted, presentation of support lends considerably more credibility to such observations. However, in many cases even opinions expressed as perspective of individuals not necessarily familiar or studied on a specific topic may on occasion present a direction in investigation that may have been overlooked. We have all experienced the Occams Razor 'syndrome' and the familiar 'hoofbeats' axiom....upon hearing them, one does not instantly look for a zebra! :)

I think that Yannis' original observations, and his subsequent additions present excellent support for the 19th century theme dagger, and that the other posts have presented excellent support for the Esmeralda figure and Notre Dame theme. Katana has continued to present some outstanding literary and artistic detection in his observations that in my 'opinion' carry substantial plausibility.

In discussions on such arcane topics as occult esoterica, it must be realized that the degree of subjectivity in observations theorizing symbolism can only be described as exceptional. In the case of trying to determine any sort of standardization in the method of viewing scabbards or overall motif of edged weapons in order to contrive certain symbolism seems in 'my opinion' specious, as it would seem that no such order must exist. Naturally by stating that, I must recognize that my own comment suggesting certain viewing upright of scabbards was based on something read 'in passim' and must be regarded as a specious comment as well at this point. I actually believe my thought was prompted by a passage possibly during research on traditional or ceremonial use of swords but honestly cannot recall.

Obviously most of what has been discussed here concerns perception, and certainly as has been shown with observations on upside down crosses, churches, sacrificial goats etc. one can see the motif on this dagger as sinister or as has been described, 'classical'. During the 18th century there were a great deal of mystical, metaphysical, cabalistic, Masonic symbolisms that materialized on weapons markings and decorative elements. The development of secret orders and societies gained popularity along with occultism and other arcane pursuits, all leading to certain forms of regalia including most likely weapons as discussed and shown here, well into the 19th century and clearly into out own times. Since such secrecy in the meanings and symbolism of much of this has been essentially lost to the ages, and subsequent writings and detail have been often discredited, we can typically only speculate what may have been intended.

"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen
and thinking what nobody has thought."
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy

I think all of the opinions here are exceptionally valuable concerning this weapon, and well represent the comprehensive knowledge of those who post here on even the most esoteric of topics. I know I've learned a lot here!
Thanks guys :)

All best regards,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Spiral!

Some more opinions...followed by the start of some cold, hard facts..

Looking at your priestess/Esmeralda figure, she seems rather sensual and "nice" doesn't she? I mean a good person caressing her pet goat. She certainly doesn't bear the look of a crazed hooded priestess about to slaughter an animal...look at the paintings of the Sacrifice of Isaac (is it?) by Abraham, he is tied and unable to move the same for the lamb he slaughters instead, tied animal. Even the sacrifices of goats and bulls by Nepalis are tied and held so as not to move. This here goat is actually fawning all over her would be executioner. If the figure were grasping the dagger at her waist then I would agree she could be about to commit sacrifice but otherwise...

Now the facts are coming...just saw a pic of an early "gothic dagger" in the Reubell Collection (Bashford, Dean. The Reubell Collection of Court Swords and Early Daggers, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, Vol. 21, No. 10. (1926): 228-233) the scabbard is heavily carved and sculpted horizontally so the dagger is held horizontally in this case, obviously for display I think. Doesn't have the figural hilt, which in this case looks Swiss.
I've also found the index of a catalogue in my library with an illustrated ornamented early gothic dagger. Will get it in a few hours and scan pics, that should provide some eyecandy and facts.

That's John Powell behind you isn't it? The Nahan Sirmoor looks beautiful in hand, that's some niiice khukri :D
Emanuel

[fenlander]

I have quite a bit of experience with old pagan symbols, but would not consider them to be "satanic" in nature...even the ones that feature horned gods and inverted pentagrams. :)

Can you point me in the right direction for a good book on pagan symbols, please?
:)

[Yannis]

Nice observation Manolo!

Let’s talk about goats. For you that you are not familiar with them I have to say that goats are no pets. They are neurotic creatures who jump around and don’t like humans except their shepherds. This particular goat on the hilt looks quite happy to be in close touch with the lady. The body language is more of a dog! If it was a dog there what would you think? Not sacrifice of course!
:D

[wolviex]

I understand we all disagree with Spiral on the field of interpretation of the meaning of this dagger.

SCABBARD: is exceptional indeed beacuse most of the scabbards are oriented downside, indeed. There are some scabbards oriented also horizontally (few examples), and as Jim, I have also seen somewhere scabbards like yours. Like David I won't change my mind this is just like it should be, because:

- this is the only way you can make church in proper proportions
- I still think it is artistic project. Until the upturned churches aren't symbol of satanism or occultism, there is no point to search one here.
- CROSSES aren't upside down - when you look on the church everything looks fine. Turning scabbard doesn't change anything. Why? Because it is stupid idea. I'll return to crosses on the blades. You can turn the blade and say the cross is upside-down too :eek: . No sense!
- The idea with lady triumph under the church, or being a symbol under the collapse church doesn't work here. If it would, this scabbard would be very poor artistic project (I don't say it is unique and glamorous work either). Anyway, in the picture of the church there is nothing what would suggest it is turned, collapsed or anything wrong with it.
- You all made great work bringing the history with Esmeralda which just fit here. Iconography seems to be enough for the proof. Church on the scabbard doesn't have to looks like Notre Dame in all details to be Notre Dame. The work is rather scetchy in details. And hardly ever you can see something identical with archetype when you're moving around symbolism and known legends. For example, in my city of Krakow there is a tradition of making Christ sheds models on Christmas time, where the shed is always situated in main Krakow's church, which is St.Marys church. Well, hardly ever this is exact the imagination of this church, while it is very characteristical. You won't find two identical models, but everybody knows how this main church looks like!

On the other hand all the knives you presented here as 'satanistic' are full of evil images, but I can see non of such on this dagger. Nice lady with loving animal, and well, there are some grim faces on the hilt, but there are many such mascarons in the art through the centuries. I never thought about hussar armour with evil-looking like mascaron on it, as of a product of occultism!

For me, well it is my interpretation, this dagger is nothing but nice Romantic knife from 19th century - century where legends, neogothic, neorenaissance, horror literature which bloomed then, made people to think in other directions, and inspired also the weapons and other arts too. You could buy many strange souvenirs then.

The idea of using 'very special dagger', and non other but with images of evil by any occult group is under the discussion too. If I would like to sacrifice anything I would use butcher's knife instead of a toy, as more reliable. The idea of using highly decorated knives seems to be more Hollywood thinking, of course characteristical for some rich princes, barons or noblemen who wanted to make real show of their 'occultism' or just make real fun of it - sometimes with pseudo occultism manners anyway! Most stories about satanism murderes are mentioning (if i remember well) about simple kitchen knives used during the process.

Here is another figural knife, made in the same period - 2nd half of the 19th c. or maybe even at the end of the century. And no - it wasn't a knife made especially for killing wives or unfaithul lovers :D

[Tim Simmons]

Bravo wolviex, sense at last!! and a fine example post. It is always unpleasant to find you have bought something, lets say under a spell :D I have more times than a care to remember. If you want to laugh at my past flights of fantasy just ask.

[David]

Thanks Wolviex, that just about nails it for me. This last dagger you have presented shows tha tfigurative daggers were being made at the time that illustrated literary themes. probably the creator of Spirals dagger found the title "Hunchback of Notre Dame" a bit to long to place on the blade. :)
I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature. Death is a fact of life and i see nothing evil about images of skulls or skeletal forms. Snakes i have always seen as a postive symbol as they are in most cultures around the world. Owls we have discussed. Images of winged and/or horned demons can be seen in many different ways. The images of Pan and the Green Man were turned into images of the Devil by the church. Very early images of some angels are also horned. The horn is generally seen as a sign of power. Jews blow the shofar. Horn is highly prized by many cultures for a reason. My point is that evil is really in the eyes of the beholder here. Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere. It makes this dagger more valuable to him to think it was once owned by one. Frankly i find it to be very interesting regardless. :)
There are certainly other daggers shown in this thread that are much more obviously occult. But an assumption that they are therefore "satanic" in intent can only be made by those who lack a deeper understanding of occult matters. Occult matters are by their very nature hidden and often dark, in that they deal with a side of nature that is not usually embraced by the general public. People tend to fear what they don't understand. That doesn't necesarily make it evil.
Wolviex supports my thought that these occult daggers were most probably meant for show, or in some cases for the use of tracing sigils as a symbolic weapon of air in lodge style ceremonial magick. I seriously doubt they were ever employed as a means of sacrifice, animal or otherwise.

[David]

Can you point me in the right direction for a good book on pagan symbols, please?
:)

Give me a day or so to look through my library. :)

[wolviex]

I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature.

Thanks David.
Yes you maybe right and I won't dig deeper. My thought on images was just general. There are some images maybe not 'evil' but more fearsome like gargoyle/devil with great wings, skeleton in armour - well for me scary :). But it depends on culture where it was made. For Europeans black is sad, and in India happy colour.

Regards!

[spiral]

[QUOTE=David.
As for being an innocent, that's pretty funny. :D If you really knew me you would no doubt think me to be one of your "satanists". :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

My comment on Innocents were teasing. ;) :D

i doubt if many arms collecters & dealers or indeed that many human biengs in the western world are realy that innocent.

Religous upbringing can leave some recognisable traits & beliefs on occasion though, despite ones rebelion against them.

Spiral

[spiral]

Spiral did you not read the post immediately preceding my post with the 3 pics :confused:

Quote from thread

In effect, Esmeralda, an innocent party, is rejected by the 'Church' in her 'hour of need'. The priest whom should protect her, will only help if she 'concedes' to his 'carnal desires' and she was shunned by society as a heathen.
This could be why the symbolism of the hilt being in 'opposition' to the 'church' scabbard is noticeable and significant.

In a way Hugo was, perhaps, against what the 'church' had become.....and that it had lost its way from the Christian teachings that it was 'born from'.

Ironically, her execution could have been avoided if she had relented her belief in honesty and goodness..........if she had been personified as a 'Christian' she could well have been made a Saint

yes I did, its an excelent piece of research , I though I said that? or perhaps that was one of your other posts?

I took it as your could see how Esmeralda could be seen as a suitable subject for a occult knife.

But I know realise your full point.

Thankyou.

Spiral

[spiral]

Great discourse guys! Lots of excellent observations, uh, and opinions!:)
As much as I have resisted, I must note here that I disagree on Spiral's comments on opinions, especially the implication that they are worthless. Naturally, as he has noted, presentation of support lends considerably more credibility to such observations. However, in many cases even opinions expressed as perspective of individuals not necessarily familiar or studied on a specific topic may on occasion present a direction in investigation that may have been overlooked. We have all experienced the Occams Razor 'syndrome' and the familiar 'hoofbeats' axiom....upon hearing them, one does not instantly look for a zebra! :)

I think that Yannis' original observations, and his subsequent additions present excellent support for the 19th century theme dagger, and that the other posts have presented excellent support for the Esmeralda figure and Notre Dame theme. Katana has continued to present some outstanding literary and artistic detection in his observations that in my 'opinion' carry substantial plausibility.

In discussions on such arcane topics as occult esoterica, it must be realized that the degree of subjectivity in observations theorizing symbolism can only be described as exceptional. In the case of trying to determine any sort of standardization in the method of viewing scabbards or overall motif of edged weapons in order to contrive certain symbolism seems in 'my opinion' specious, as it would seem that no such order must exist. Naturally by stating that, I must recognize that my own comment suggesting certain viewing upright of scabbards was based on something read 'in passim' and must be regarded as a specious comment as well at this point. I actually believe my thought was prompted by a passage possibly during research on traditional or ceremonial use of swords but honestly cannot recall.

Obviously most of what has been discussed here concerns perception, and certainly as has been shown with observations on upside down crosses, churches, sacrificial goats etc. one can see the motif on this dagger as sinister or as has been described, 'classical'. During the 18th century there were a great deal of mystical, metaphysical, cabalistic, Masonic symbolisms that materialized on weapons markings and decorative elements. The development of secret orders and societies gained popularity along with occultism and other arcane pursuits, all leading to certain forms of regalia including most likely weapons as discussed and shown here, well into the 19th century and clearly into out own times. Since such secrecy in the meanings and symbolism of much of this has been essentially lost to the ages, and subsequent writings and detail have been often discredited, we can typically only speculate what may have been intended.

"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen
and thinking what nobody has thought."
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy

I think all of the opinions here are exceptionally valuable concerning this weapon, and well represent the comprehensive knowledge of those who post here on even the most esoteric of topics. I know I've learned a lot here!
Thanks guys :)

All best regards,
Jim


I agrre opinions are worthwhile in a discusian, I just recognise in science they are & law they are niether empirical evidence nor expert oppinion. {in US legal terms.}

I agree the point about Esmerelda could have some validity. As I stated to Katana earlier post.

Spiral

[spiral]

Spiral!

Some more opinions...followed by the start of some cold, hard facts..

Looking at your priestess/Esmeralda figure, she seems rather sensual and "nice" doesn't she? I mean a good person caressing her pet goat. She certainly doesn't bear the look of a crazed hooded priestess about to slaughter an animal...look at the paintings of the Sacrifice of Isaac (is it?) by Abraham, he is tied and unable to move the same for the lamb he slaughters instead, tied animal. Even the sacrifices of goats and bulls by Nepalis are tied and held so as not to move. This here goat is actually fawning all over her would be executioner. If the figure were grasping the dagger at her waist then I would agree she could be about to commit sacrifice but otherwise...

Now the facts are coming...just saw a pic of an early "gothic dagger" in the Reubell Collection (Bashford, Dean. The Reubell Collection of Court Swords and Early Daggers, The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin, Vol. 21, No. 10. (1926): 228-233) the scabbard is heavily carved and sculpted horizontally so the dagger is held horizontally in this case, obviously for display I think. Doesn't have the figural hilt, which in this case looks Swiss.
I've also found the index of a catalogue in my library with an illustrated ornamented early gothic dagger. Will get it in a few hours and scan pics, that should provide some eyecandy and facts.

That's John Powell behind you isn't it? The Nahan Sirmoor looks beautiful in hand, that's some niiice khukri :D
Emanuel

thankyou for trying Manolo, & the photo, as I said earlier the most valid points of evidence would come from 19th century cast figural handled pieces.

as intresting as the dagger you show is it clearly is not a cast figural handled 19th century piece. So even if i could make out the scabbard figures is still not the type of knife in questian. I realise you recognise & mentian that.

I have a figurative handled stassknive by Louen, Norways most estemed church carver & 19th century knife maker, but although , the scabbard would illustrate my point yet again , I havent shown it as evidence as the handle although figual is carved hollywood , not cast.

i look forward to your pictures of 19th century cast figural handles.

Not all the animals behead in Nepal are tied & held, some are certanly particularily bulls to allow the kukri or kora aim to fall between the vertabrae rather than a direct hit in the middle of the bone. {Ive been there & seen it done.}

But if you watch muslims slaughter animals for Halal meat they just do the animals throat , some can even do it while petting the animal to lull it into a sense of security & or treat it with respect ;) {Ive seen this done too, intrestingly enough in Sunny England by a Tunisean who has regard & respect for the animals he raises & kills to feed his family.}


The picture does show John Powell & an unamed forumite from here who JP wouldnt sell that kukri to for $12000, on principle because he thought it should come to an approriate home for such a piece for, a tiny fraction of that sum. {I do have written permision to post that forumites photo & the price discussed is already in the public domain on the internet.}

its just a private joke realy. :D


Spiral

[spiral]

I understand we all disagree with Spiral on the field of interpretation of the meaning of this dagger.

SCABBARD: is exceptional indeed beacuse most of the scabbards are oriented downside, indeed. There are some scabbards oriented also horizontally (few examples), and as Jim, I have also seen somewhere scabbards like yours. Like David I won't change my mind this is just like it should be, because:

- this is the only way you can make church in proper proportions
- I still think it is artistic project. Until the upturned churches aren't symbol of satanism or occultism, there is no point to search one here.
- CROSSES aren't upside down - when you look on the church everything looks fine. Turning scabbard doesn't change anything. Why? Because it is stupid idea. I'll return to crosses on the blades. You can turn the blade and say the cross is upside-down too :eek: . No sense!
- The idea with lady triumph under the church, or being a symbol under the collapse church doesn't work here. If it would, this scabbard would be very poor artistic project (I don't say it is unique and glamorous work either). Anyway, in the picture of the church there is nothing what would suggest it is turned, collapsed or anything wrong with it.
- You all made great work bringing the history with Esmeralda which just fit here. Iconography seems to be enough for the proof. Church on the scabbard doesn't have to looks like Notre Dame in all details to be Notre Dame. The work is rather scetchy in details. And hardly ever you can see something identical with archetype when you're moving around symbolism and known legends. For example, in my city of Krakow there is a tradition of making Christ sheds models on Christmas time, where the shed is always situated in main Krakow's church, which is St.Marys church. Well, hardly ever this is exact the imagination of this church, while it is very characteristical. You won't find two identical models, but everybody knows how this main church looks like!

On the other hand all the knives you presented here as 'satanistic' are full of evil images, but I can see non of such on this dagger. Nice lady with loving animal, and well, there are some grim faces on the hilt, but there are many such mascarons in the art through the centuries. I never thought about hussar armour with evil-looking like mascaron on it, as of a product of occultism!

For me, well it is my interpretation, this dagger is nothing but nice Romantic knife from 19th century - century where legends, neogothic, neorenaissance, horror literature which bloomed then, made people to think in other directions, and inspired also the weapons and other arts too. You could buy many strange souvenirs then.

The idea of using 'very special dagger', and non other but with images of evil by any occult group is under the discussion too. If I would like to sacrifice anything I would use butcher's knife instead of a toy, as more reliable. The idea of using highly decorated knives seems to be more Hollywood thinking, of course characteristical for some rich princes, barons or noblemen who wanted to make real show of their 'occultism' or just make real fun of it - sometimes with pseudo occultism manners anyway! Most stories about satanism murderes are mentioning (if i remember well) about simple kitchen knives used during the process.

Here is another figural knife, made in the same period - 2nd half of the 19th c. or maybe even at the end of the century. And no - it wasn't a knife made especially for killing wives or unfaithul lovers :D


Thankyou for your opinions, the leaders of French,German & indeed English satanic groups in the 19th century were generaly from the aristocracy.

Excelent figural knife you show which despite your opinions yet again clearly shows & adds further empirical evidence to my stated point that the cast figural handel daggers of the 19th century are veiwed in the upright position to study the scabbard.

Thankyou for bieng unbiased enough to share the photos to support my case even if they fly in the face of your opinions.


Spiral

[Bill M]

Thanks David.
Yes you maybe right and I won't dig deeper. My thought on images was just general. There are some images maybe not 'evil' but more fearsome like gargoyle/devil with great wings, skeleton in armour - well for me scary :). But it depends on culture where it was made. For Europeans black is sad, and in India happy colour.

Regards!

Hi Wolviex,

In many cultures evil looking creatures are put up by the good guys to defend them from the real evil creatures OR to placate the evil creatures so they leave the good guys alone. I think that we see much more of this than we see people actually worshipping demonic spirits.

In Bali, for instance, offerings are made to demons that contain rotten foods because they think that is what the demons would like to have. Make the demons happy and they may leave you alone and also chase away other demons.

It is all in your perspective and frame of reference. For instance if you make friends with a vicious dog in your home, he will protect you. BUT to a person outside, your vicious dog may appear to be demonic.

Where black is a India color of happiness, white is their color for death.

It is very difficult to understand another culture's symbols without a deep study fo their culture, religion and history. Even then it can be terribly misunderstood. Even Margaret Mead made some mistakes.

Often, the actual natives themsleves don't understand time honored rituals and symbols. Reading a marvelous book, "Shields of Melanasia" where questions were asked about why certain devices and synbols are still being used. The natives don't know anymore. They say they use them because "they always have."

I am really enjoying this thread. I have learned a lot and am impressed (again) by the breadth, depth of knowledge and elucidation of the members here.

[spiral]

Bravo wolviex, sense at last!! and a fine example post. It is always unpleasant to find you have bought something, lets say under a spell :D I have more times than a care to remember. If you want to laugh at my past flights of fantasy just ask.


Tim I am sure as you say you have made many mistakes in your purchases, as you say I have seen you post some here & if you read "The art of Rhinocerous horn carving in China " by Jan Chapman you may possibly spot another couple you havent yet realised. ;)

I must have been much luckier to date or do more reserch on most things I collect. {The first year or two of my arms collecting I made varois errors due to lack of expierence , knowledge & research etc. that what taught me the value of research, evidence & expert oppinion rather than "joe bloggs" opinion.


If this ever turns out to be a typicle example of a non occult 19th centry piece, with its cast figural handle & scabbard, I will still be delighted to keep it. It is the piece itself I appreciate.

i doubt if I will ever see another such piece. This thread prooves its rarity.



& After all I picked it up for a mere 12 portions of fish & chips & curry sauce. ;) :D its amazing what one can find for peanuts sometimes.

I wonder if you could cast & chase a one piece scabbard like that? using 19th century technology? or is 19th century "fracklin mint" rather tricker if you put your proffesional head on?

I worked in casting as a youth, before deciding to move on to other feilds that I find more, spiritualy,intelectualy & indeed socialy rewarding.

But I did enjoy it at the time.


Spiral

[Emanuel]

Hmm the great fact I was going to shatter your argument with ain't no good Spiral. First of, what I now found is a true Gothic dagger as in Mediaeval. Secondly it's ivory not cast...third it actually supports your argument, the figures are seen upright...so much for that. anyway here's the pic for interest...all the text and captions are in German so I can't give any info about it. It shows dragons which is indeed a satanic symbol in mediaeval Christian iconography, and some sort of Cerberus too.

Will keep looking for an appropriate cast 19th c. example...

Emanuel

[spiral]

Thanks Wolviex, that just about nails it for me. This last dagger you have presented shows tha tfigurative daggers were being made at the time that illustrated literary themes. probably the creator of Spirals dagger found the title "Hunchback of Notre Dame" a bit to long to place on the blade. :)
I would only disagree with you that the images on all these other daggers are "evil" in nature. Death is a fact of life and i see nothing evil about images of skulls or skeletal forms. Snakes i have always seen as a postive symbol as they are in most cultures around the world. Owls we have discussed. Images of winged and/or horned demons can be seen in many different ways. The images of Pan and the Green Man were turned into images of the Devil by the church. Very early images of some angels are also horned. The horn is generally seen as a sign of power. Jews blow the shofar. Horn is highly prized by many cultures for a reason. My point is that evil is really in the eyes of the beholder here. Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere. It makes this dagger more valuable to him to think it was once owned by one. Frankly i find it to be very interesting regardless. :)
There are certainly other daggers shown in this thread that are much more obviously occult. But an assumption that they are therefore "satanic" in intent can only be made by those who lack a deeper understanding of occult matters. Occult matters are by their very nature hidden and often dark, in that they deal with a side of nature that is not usually embraced by the general public. People tend to fear what they don't understand. That doesn't necesarily make it evil.
Wolviex supports my thought that these occult daggers were most probably meant for show, or in some cases for the use of tracing sigils as a symbolic weapon of air in lodge style ceremonial magick. I seriously doubt they were ever employed as a means of sacrifice, animal or otherwise.


Re. "Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere."

That is tottaly & radicaly mistaken veiw of me, without foundation or substance. Although I realise judging someone so arbritarily from are limeted online encounters could easily allow for such errors.

I work in fields that fully understand human projection, transferance etc. & although Gestalt in nature apprecite that evidence is usefull when looking at peoples opinions especialy those that have roots to thier childhoods.

Spiral

[spiral]

Hi Wolviex,

In many cultures evil looking creatures are put up by the good guys to defend them from the real evil creatures OR to placate the evil creatures so they leave the good guys alone. I think that we see much more of this than we see people actually worshipping demonic spirits.

In Bali, for instance, offerings are made to demons that contain rotten foods because they think that is what the demons would like to have. Make the demons happy and they may leave you alone and also chase away other demons.

It is all in your perspective and frame of reference. For instance if you make friends with a viscious dog, he will protect you. BUT to a person outside, your viscious dog may appear to be demonic.

Where black is a India color of happiness, white is their color for death.

It is very difficult to understand another culture's symbols without a deep study fo their culture, religion and history. Even then it can be terribly misunderstood.

Often, the actual natives themsleves don't understand time honored rituals and symbols. Reading a marvelous book, "Shields of Melanasia" where questions were asked about why certain devices and synbols are still being used. The natives don't know anymore. They say they use them because "they always have."

I am really enjoying this thread. I have learned a lot and am impressed (again) by the breadth, depth of knowledge and elucidation of the members here.


Good & valid points Bill. ;)

Spiral

[spiral]

Hmm the great fact I was going to shatter your argument with ain't no good Spiral. First of, what I now found is a true Gothic dagger as in Mediaeval. Secondly it's ivory not cast...third it actually supports your argument, the figures are seen upright...so much for that. anyway here's the pic for interest...all the text and captions are in German so I can't give any info about it. It shows dragons which is indeed a satanic symbol in mediaeval Christian iconography, and some sort of Cerberus too.

Will keep looking for an appropriate cast 19th c. example...

Emanuel


An intresting piece Manolo, thankyou.

Spiral

[fenlander]

Give me a day or so to look through my library. :)

Thanks that is helpful of you.
This is becoming more and more interesting. I always thought inverted crosses were satanic. Like the inverted pentacle is for black magic. Never even heard of the cross of St Peter. Very interesting. I'm looking for more of an introductory book and from a respected author in the field. :)

[Bill M]

Re. "Spiral wants to see satanists everywhere."

That is tottaly & radicaly mistaken veiw of me, without foundation or substance. Although I realise judging someone so arbritarily from are limeted online encounters could easily allow for such errors.Spiral


Spiral,

I think that you are mistaking David's wry sense of humor (humour) here. In written communication we miss a great deal. Tempo, intonation, body language which are the major elements in communication.

Maybe we can cut each other a little slack?

[spiral]

Spiral,

I think that you are mistaking David's wry sense of humor (humour) here. In written communication we miss a great deal. Tempo, intonation, body language which are the major elements in communication.

Maybe we can cut each other a little slack?

Certanly Bill,

Your correct, I recognise that what I said about internet communication is a true for me as it is for others.

I must admit I was also partialy bieng rather tounge in cheek playing a debating card as well, as I took Davids comment as realy bieng in the same spirit.

Humour is good. ;) Dry humour is better! :D

Spiral

[katana]

[QUOTE=David]. I would also like to point out that occult magickal symbols are more often created in much less representational form to hide their true meanings from the uninitiated. QUOTE]


Rather like this dagger perhaps? It just esmerelda , a pet goat & a tambourine...

& why of course the church just has to be upside down. :rolleyes:

Spiral



Spiral, if subtle symbolism is important.....to hide the daggers true purpose from the uninitiated........WHY are the INVERTED CROSSES so OBVIOUS....????

As regards the Pope sitting beneath an inverted cross......yes, it is ALL over the Web........but there are only 2 interpretations written about it.......the most common are the Conspirousy Theorists who cite there is only 'one meaning' and that is it is a Satanic symbol and that the Pope could be the 'Anti-Christ'. They have failed to research the Inverted Cross, if they did they would discover there is also St Peter's Cross , which to Catholics is a sign of 'humility' and 'unworthiness'.....a case of seeing what you want to see ???

Quote Wikipedia

The Alexandrian scholar Origen is the first to report that St. Peter 'was crucified head downward, for he had asked that he might suffer in this way'. Some Catholics use this cross as a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ.
It is also often associated with Satanism. Aleister Crowley believed this cross to be a symbol of inverted grace, or falling away from Christ's grace. As a result, this symbol has become very popular within the heavy metal, black metal and death metal music scenes (notably, members of bands such as Danzig, Deicide, and Gorgoroth have adorned themselves with large inverted cross pendants)
During the late Pope John Paul II's visit to Israel, a picture of him with a backdrop of St. Peter's cross was widely circulated on the Internet, propagating the belief of some that the Catholic Church is associated with Satanism. In fact the photograph is related to the Catholic tradition that St. Peter was martyred in Rome (and as Catholic tradition views the Pope as the successor of Peter, it is a logical symbol for the Roman Pontiff). The inverted cross is also one of the traditional symbols used by Petrine Orthodox Sebomenoi

[Tim Simmons]

I feel compelled to show how these classical and occult images are still in use today on prestige artifacts. These two could collect sacrificial blood except they were made for the worshipful company of lightmongers. Casting, chasing tools and methods have not changed in millennium. As for a spirtual quest I find just picking my feet enough :cool: .
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/F008.jpg

[katana]

I believe that ‘Satanic’ daggers exist but I have a few observations….

Firstly, a dagger used in Black Magic Rites would surely be greatly revered by the practitioners. As the dagger is continually used wouldn’t the ‘believers’ feel that the dagger would increasingly become imbued with ‘evil power’ and its significance increase? If so, why would these daggers be available to collectors? These could be likened to ‘Religious Relics’ …..afterall Satanism IS a RELIGION in true context.

Secondly, many Occult sects evolved late 17th early 18th Century…..as has been pointed out …usually involving the richer sections of society. However, few were truly ‘Satanic’ , most involved themselves in drunkenness, drug taking and sexual orgies. Practices that were considered anti-Christian. Bearing in mind the power of the Church, its wealth and its involvement in politics…..these people were the ‘back-lash’ to the overwhelming control of the Church. A ‘Rock and Roll’ club for Gentlemen :D :rolleyes: . Their actions more ‘Animalistic’ (and Anti-establishmental) than ‘Satanic’ and , IMHO any daggers attributed to this type of ‘club’…..should be viewed in the same context of ‘Freemason Paraphernalia.'

Thirdly, I pointed out the symbolism of the crucifix hilt, and you (Spiral) feel the cross guard is a functional necessity. Why? If the dagger is more symbolic and used in a Ritual (i.e. like a Phurba) …the guard is unnecessary. If the dagger is used in sacrifice…..the ‘offering’ would be usually incapacitated (bound or drugged) the wielder of the dagger could ‘pick his spot’ avoiding bone etc . If the throat is cut….the more usual method of sacrifice , the cross guard of a dagger would ‘get in the way’ ….? Surely Satanists would avoid having such a prominent Christian Symbol involved with their Rituals ?



I think that your dagger is a lovely piece of work. The casting is clean and crisp, the blade looks great……I still maintain that this is a themed dagger , if endowed with symbolism…I believe that it is a ‘political statement’ about the Church /Society at that time. I am not a Religious person but I do consider myself ‘Spiritual’, I am not in denial about the possibilities of ‘true’ satanistic daggers. This is a case of Yin and Yang………..if there is a good God there must be an equally powerful ‘evil’ god….such is the belief systems of Man kind since humanity ‘found’ religion.

[katana]

....all the text and captions are in German so I can't give any info about it. Emanuel


Hi Emanuel,
try copying and pasting on this translation site :) ...


http://world.altavista.com/tr


Regards David

[wolviex]

Excelent figural knife you show which despite your opinions yet again clearly shows & adds further empirical evidence to my stated point that the cast figural handel daggers of the 19th century are veiwed in the upright position to study the scabbard.

Thankyou for bieng unbiased enough to share the photos to support my case even if they fly in the face of your opinions.

Quite the contrary
I think you should reread my post and you'll find that I admited your dagger is quite unique because of the scabbard, but aswell as Jim I have seen somewhere something like this before, so it's not the only one.

And again, IMHO, your turned scabbard means nothing here, as we all claim here.

[Emanuel]

What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like.

So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it.

I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way :D

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

I think that stylistically and thematically, the dagger and scabbard must be able to function separately. The hilt can tell its own story and in the cases so far, so can the scabbard. There is something happening on the scabbard that tells something. In the case of your dagger Spiral, there is only a perfectly normal church. On its own there is nothing wrong with it. Do any other cult daggers function this way?

The way you hold it is irrelevant, the satanaic symbol must be legible in the context of the other symbols occupying the same space as it. If the crosses on the church were upside down, then again a convincing case could be made. But as it stands, the church has nothing wrong...
Emanuel

[katana]

Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!!

For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link....

http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html

[Tim Simmons]

To my mind this thread stopped making any sense a while back. I for one will not be toyed with acerbic abnegation any further. :eek:

[spiral]

[QUOTE=spiral]

Spiral, if subtle symbolism is important.....to hide the daggers true purpose from the uninitiated........WHY are the INVERTED CROSSES so OBVIOUS....????

As regards the Pope sitting beneath an inverted cross......yes, it is ALL over the Web........but there are only 2 interpretations written about it.......the most common are the Conspirousy Theorists who cite there is only 'one meaning' and that is it is a Satanic symbol and that the Pope could be the 'Anti-Christ'. They have failed to research the Inverted Cross, if they did they would discover there is also St Peter's Cross , which to Catholics is a sign of 'humility' and 'unworthiness'.....a case of seeing what you want to see ???

Quote Wikipedia

The Alexandrian scholar Origen is the first to report that St. Peter 'was crucified head downward, for he had asked that he might suffer in this way'. Some Catholics use this cross as a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ.
It is also often associated with Satanism. Aleister Crowley believed this cross to be a symbol of inverted grace, or falling away from Christ's grace. As a result, this symbol has become very popular within the heavy metal, black metal and death metal music scenes (notably, members of bands such as Danzig, Deicide, and Gorgoroth have adorned themselves with large inverted cross pendants)
During the late Pope John Paul II's visit to Israel, a picture of him with a backdrop of St. Peter's cross was widely circulated on the Internet, propagating the belief of some that the Catholic Church is associated with Satanism. In fact the photograph is related to the Catholic tradition that St. Peter was martyred in Rome (and as Catholic tradition views the Pope as the successor of Peter, it is a logical symbol for the Roman Pontiff). The inverted cross is also one of the traditional symbols used by Petrine Orthodox Sebomenoi


Subtle enough that the brotherhood of ethnographic arms collectors can not see it. ;)


Wikpedia had all their satanist stuff rewritten as well. There all misunderstood nice boys realy! :D its posted on there by any one who wishes! & gets thier friends to agree its hardly a serious political resource.

& guess what the The original Alexandrian Origen reports can not be found, it is a mere reinterpritation of them recycled. The were lost centurys ago.

Spiral

[Andrew]

It must be a full moon...

Everyone take a breath and relax, please. There's nothing worth getting upset with each other over here. Let's also keep in mind that internet discussion boards are, at best, an imperfect communication medium.

Factor in cultural and language differences and, well, you know. :)

[spiral]

Quite the contrary
I think you should reread my post and you'll find that I admited your dagger is quite unique because of the scabbard, but aswell as Jim I have seen somewhere something like this before, so it's not the only one.

And again, IMHO, your turned scabbard means nothing here, as we all claim here.


I understood your post.

I have to ignore you "evidence" though whether yours or Jims as possibly incorrect.

After all niether of you can even remeber where you saw it. So that leaves room for error as perhaps you cant remeber quite exactly correctly what you have seen before.

If you ever remeber it please post here or PM me if its in a few years time. I always appreciate evidence.

Thankyou.

Spiral

[spiral]

What says that the right way to hold the dagger and scabbard is not the other way around so the church is right side up and the satanic priestess is upside down? In which case it would be the church triumphing over paganism, satanism and the like.

So far no one has presented an overturned church (spires, portals crosses and all) and this is the first time I see architectural features portrayed on a scabbard. Interesting it would be to find precedent for architectural depictions and see how they are done. If a castle were shown in the manner of this church, would the dagger indicate a political movement/rebellion? Architectural depiction usually has the problem of having to fit the shape of the space it occupies. A triangular building in a triangular shape will most times prescribe only one way to arrange it.

I think the "right way to hold the scabbard" is too ambiguous in some cases. If there were separate symbols following one alignment and one were overturned, then a case could be made. But when there is only one apparant symbol, what is there to indicate the "right side up"? Looking at examples from different places won't help either IMO. Maybe a German will look at it this way, a Frenchman that way, a Brit another and a Spaniard yet another...the Italian will laugh at them and show the right way :D

Emanuel

Empircal evidence shown by me , so far demonstrates that European figural knives of the 19th century are veiwed handle upright.

Satanic black masses are about inverting the Christian mass, even the words are recounted backwards. this is well recorded.

Spiral

[spiral]

Symbology.....is a very demanding subject, the meanings dependant on race, religion, time period. Many symbols often have several meanings.....some diametrically opposed !!!!

For Instance if you saw this symbol.....what would you think ?....what would you feel ? Once you have 'organised your thoughts' click on the link....

http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html


Well I thought of thice piece {the central one, {old photo I had handy ;) .}

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/regis.jpg

But then I am intrested in symbolism.

As its neither European, 19th century, nor has a cast handle the evidence of this piece in how to look at the scabbard is worthless in this discusian though.

It looks like your learning though if you apply the same concepts to the dagger featured , what conclusians do you then reach?


Spiral

[spiral]

To my mind this thread stopped making any sense a while back. I for one will not be toyed with acerbic abnegation any further. :eek:

I respect your descion.

In life I try to communicte & indeed deal with each individul in the manner or type of speach or attitiude shown to me.

This can assist some founding freindships & destroy jobs. {"supierors" dont always like it.}

Always tricker via internet as we already know. ;)

Easier in a pub with a pint.

Take care,

Spiral

[spiral]

It must be a full moon...

Everyone take a breath and relax, please. There's nothing worth getting upset with each other over here. Let's also keep in mind that internet discussion boards are, at best, an imperfect communication medium.

Factor in cultural and language differences and, well, you know. :)

Thankyou Andrew, I hope nobody takes any of this too deeply, it is just my quest to find someone with some actual expieriance or empirical evidence of these cast, 19th century european daggers.

I live in hope. or as satanists say.

"The devill made me do it" ;) :D

Spiral

[katana]

Well I thought of thice piece {the central one, {old photo I had handy ;) .}
But then I am intrested in symbolism.

As its neither European, 19th century, nor has a cast handle the evidence of this piece in how to look at the scabbard is worthless in this discusian though.

It looks like your learning though if you apply the same concepts to the dagger featured , what conclusians do you then reach?


Spiral


Hi Spiral,
the Swastika 'question' was aimed at the 'audience' .....to demonstrate how symbolism can be mis-interpreted .......not you specifically...I should have made that clearer.

[Bill M]

Hi Spiral,
the Swastika 'question' was aimed at the 'audience' .....to demonstrate how symbolism can be mis-interpreted .......not you specifically...I should have made that clearer.

As I understand it the swastica was a Tibetan symbol, long before Adolph H. came on the scene. It typically depicts a wheel turning in a life enhancing clockwise direction with sparks flying off.

Hitler was accused of using this symbol turning in a counter-clockwise direction meaning anti-life. While this is possible, Tibetans used it both ways, though usual was clockwise.

There was some speculation that Hitler's power, and his charisma was VERY powerful, was enhanced by teachings by G. I. Gurdjieff who studied in Tibet and that the swastica was one of his power symbols.

Also red, black and white are the common three colors used in many animistic societies indicating the High Kingdom (White) the earth plane (red) and the lower world (black - sometimes blue, but usually black).

My point is again that symbolism both a cultural and personal. Depending on your point of view.

Still there is something that reaches a universal depth. Karl Jung had some interesting ideas there, but this is not the Forum for me to continue these musings........

Missed katana's link before. Good stuff there. [reason to edit]

[Jim McDougall]

I think the most interesting factor in this thread is that somewhat specious assessment or perception of an unusually decorated dagger from the original post evolved into some fascinating discussion and posts concerning some extremely esoteric material. Subsequent review and presentation of developing opinions and some very well supported ideas led to very plausible solutions to the meaning of the unusual motif. I also think that for the most part the members have maintained outstanding control despite some unfortunately barbed comments that were entirely unnecessary.

Many of these, however, in my 'opinion' were perhaps wry, misguided attempts at humor? that perhaps arose from either misinterpretation or perception of comments that appear to derive from flawed linguistic syntax or misspelled words. As has been noted, written communication typically lacks necessary sensitivity, and often transliteration completely inhibits delivery in the case of humor.

In the instance of Spiral reemphasizing my own faux pas in expressing an unsupported observation concerning the viewing of scabbards, despite the manner in which he expressed his comments, I presume that he did not intend to sound insulting. Actually it was a good reminder that one cannot be too careful in making statements in friendly discussion, even if you carefully qualify your comment. It is important to remember that the comments you make, regardless of how well qualified, are not necessarily well interpreted by those who read them.

This thread has been extremely informative, and I have very much enjoyed the posts and discussion, though of course, inconclusive. I think we have all learned quite a lot about these theme daggers as well as on the elusive daggers of occult regalia. The topic has proven, as may be expected, extremely difficult, as it does not lend itself well to the expectations of those who adhere closely to restrictive academic perameters regardless of the character of the discussion at hand.

In all, a very exhilerating thread! :)

All best regards,
Jim

[VANDOO]

I MUST ADMIT I AM A BIT SHY ABOUT GETTING INTO THIS AS I AM NOT AN EXPERT IN THIS TYPE OF ARTEFACT NOR HAVE I A LARGE COLLECTION OF THEM AND HAVE NOT CAREEFULLY RESEARCHED THE SUBJECT OF SATAN WORSHIP NOR PRACTICED IT. SO ANYTHING I SAY WILL BASED ON LOGIC AND MY PERSONEL OPINIONS SO I HOPE I DON'T WASTE ANYONES TIME , AND I HOPE I DON'T GET MY TAIL FEATHERS SCORCHED OFF :eek:

I HAVE SEEN AND HANDLED QUITE A FEW KNIVES OF THIS TYPE FROM THE EARLY 1960'S UNTIL THE LAST ONE IN THE 1990'S. THEY WERE AT GUN SHOWS AND WERE ALWAYS TOO HIGH PRICED FOR ME TO EVER OWN ONE BUT I ALWAYS ENJOYED LOOKING AT THE VARIETY AND EXCELLENT WORKMANSHIP. I DON'T REMBER EVER SEEING A EXAMPLE THAT SHOWED A LOT OF WEAR FROM USE ALTHOUGH THEY DID SHOW AGE AND A FEW HAD BEEN ABUSED BY SOME CHILD OR ADULT DOLT. I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE EXAMPLE MISSING ITS SCABBARD THIS WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT THE DAGGERS WERE USUALLY VERY WELL TAKEN CARE OF AND WERE VERY EXPENSIVE WHEN THEY WERE MADE AND DURING THE PERIOD OF THEIR USE. OFTEN THEY WERE DESCRIBED AS WITCHCRAFT DAGGERS OR ASSOCIATED WITH SECERET SOCIETYS.

I THINK THEY USUALLY WERE CUSTOM MADE OR TO SHOW OFF THE SKILL OF THE MAKERS AND REFLECTED THE CURRENT FASHONS OF THE SOCIETY AT THE TIME. I ALSO EXPECT THAT ONLY THE RICH OR WEALTHY PEOPLE BELONGING TO A SECERET SOCIETY COULD HAVE AFFORDED THEM. THERE WERE MANY SECRET SOCIETYS IN THE PAST IN MOST COUNTRYS SOME STILL EXHIST AND MANY DO NOT. THE SKULL SYMBOL IS OFTEN A REMINDER OF MANS MORTALITY AS WE ALL PONDER DEATH FROM TIME TO TIME. MOST OF THE OTHER SYMBOLS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED ALSO HAVE SEVERAL WAYS OF INTREPETING THEM.
MANY OF THE THINGS SAID TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH SATAN WORSHIP WERE RELATED TO THE OLD IDEAS OF NATURE WORSHIP WHICH IS NOT SATANISM OR WITCHCRAFT BUT A REVERENCE FOR NATURE AND THE FORCE OR FORCES THAT CREATED EVERYTHING. IN THE PROCESS OF ONE RELIGION DISPOSING OF A OLDER LOCAL RELIGION ALL SUCH BELIEFS AND THEIR SYMBOLS WERE SAID TO BE OF THE DEVIL AND FEARSOME EXAMPLES WERE MADE OF PEOPLE TO TRY AND STAMP OUT SUCH PRACTICES.
MANY SECRET SOCIETYS EVOLVED FROM THIS AND BEING SECRET I AM SURE THEY HAD SECRET SIGNS AND MEETINGS SO IF HISTORY NOTES THEM AT ALL IT WILL BE FROM THE VIEWS OF THOSE WHO FIND AND DESTROY THEM. IF THEY BELONGED TO SUCH A SOCIETY AND IT IS STILL IN EXHISTANCE I DOUBT THAT THE KNIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOLD UNLESS A THIEF TOOK IT.
PERHAPS THERE ARE THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN AND HOPE TO GAIN WEALTH AND POWER THRU IT BUT I WOULD THINK THEY WOULD BE FAR AND FEW IN BETWEEN THROUGHT HISTORY. MANY OF THE THINGS YOU READ ABOUT BLACK MASSES, HUMAN SACRIFICE, SUMMONING DEAMONS , VAMPIRES, DRAGONS AND ORGES ARE BASED ON OLD TALES, BOOKS, MOVIES AND SUCH. SOME CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN THESE STORYS AND TRY TO BECOME A MASTER OF THE BLACK ARTS OR A WICKED WITCH AND MAY DO SOME TERRIBLE SECRET THINGS AND BECOME FEARED AS A DEAMON IN HUMAN FORM. THIS IS THEIR DOING BUT I FEEL THEY DON'T GET ANY REAL POWER FROM IT AND IT IS A FORM OF ROLE PLAYING GAME. THE DEVIL WILL OF COURSE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS FOR HIS OWN ENDS BUT IS A FRIEND TO NO MAN.

FIGURES FROM GREEK, ROMAN, EGYPTIAN AND OTHER TIMES AND COUNTRYS HAVE BECOME THE FASHON IN ART THROUGHOUT HISTORY. PERHAPS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO BOUGHT OR ORDERED THE DAGGER MADE WOULD KNOW WHAT ALL THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR, PERHAPS NOT. A SECRET SOCIETY WOULD KNOW WHAT THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR AND THEY WOULD BE A PART OF THEIR CREDO.
I WOULD THINK THAT ONE WHO PRACTEDED THE BLACK ARTS WOULD HAVE SOME PROTECTIVE SPELLS AND DEADLY CURSES INCORPORATED INTO THE DESIGNS UNLESS CURSES AND SPELLS CAN ONLY BE SPOKEN.? BUT I DON'T SEE WHY THEY WOULD HAVE RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS OF THE CHURCH AND SUCH ON A IMPLEMENT THEY PLANNED TO USE TO DESICRATE THE CHURCH AND RELIGION. :confused:

SOME POSSIBILITYS FOR THE ORIGINAL DAGGER WOULD BE
1. ONE OR MORE EXAMPLES WERE MADE TO BE PRESENTED AS GIFTS TO SOME IMPORTANT PERSON. PERHAPS VICTOR HUGO HIMSELF? IF YOU COULD PROVE THAT IT WOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN A MERE SATANIC DAGGER :D

2. AN ARTIST LIKED THE BOOK AND WAS INSPIRED TO MAKE THE KNIFE OR SOMEONE ELSE COMMISIONED IT AS HE WAS A FAN OF VICTOR HUGO.

3. THE VICTOR HUGO FAN CLUB HAD THEM MADE IN THE THOUSANDS FOR ALL MEMBERS ;) OR NOT :p

I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OF THESE DAGGERS TAKEN APART BEFORE AND WONDER IF VERY MANY KNIVES WERE MADE WITH THE DETACHABLE BLADE AND IF IT MIGHT HAVE HAD MULTIPLE BLADES FOR DIFFERENT USES?

MY GUT FEELING ABOUT THIS TYPE OF KNIFE IS THAT IT WAS NOT MADE FOR USE BY THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN. BUT IN THE YEARS SINCE ITS CREATION WHO KNOWS WHO HAS HAD IT OR WHAT THEY HAVE USED IT FOR. AS THEY HAVE BEEN SOLD AS DAGGERS RELATED TO WITCHCRAFT, ECT. AT LEAST SINCE THE EARLY 1960'S.

SORRY I CAN'T LAY ALL THE INFORMATION OF THE TYPE AND THE HISTORY ON YOU . BUT REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT IS ITS A REAL SWEET DAGGER AND IT HAS BEEN A VERY INTERESTING DISCUSSION. :D

PS. THE SWASTKA IS ALSO AN ANCIANT SYMBOL USED BY SOME OF THE AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBES, A VERY OLD SYMBOL BUT NOTHING EVIL ABOUT IT.

[katana]

Intrigued by ‘Satanistic’ daggers I began investigating one of the daggers you have posted…..
i.e the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.


On Bernard’s site the knife is stated as marked “ Fait a Nancy en 1871 par Florian ROYAL” this translates to “ Made in Nancy in 1871 for Royal Florian’ .

Seems strange that a ‘covert’ dagger would have where its made and whom for…clearly marked on it……

Historically, in 1871 ….

The Franco-Prussian War (July 19, 1870 – May 10, 1871) was declared by France on Prussia, which was backed by the North German Confederation and the south German states of Baden, Württemberg and Bavaria. The conflict marked the culmination of tension between the two powers following Prussia's rise to dominance in Germany, which before 1866 was still a loose federation of quasi-independent territories.

More info here (yes Spiral, Wikipedia again… ;) :p …..there are many other references but this one is fairly concise )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War


This war caused political and social upheaval….


1871-1918:
At the time of the French defeat of 1871, the German-speaking parts of the département of Meurthe and of the département of Moselle were merged to build one of the 3 districts of the Alsace-Lorraine Reichsland:


France lost Alsace-Lorraine in 1871, Nancy lost the arrondissements of Sarrebourg and Château-Salins which, having become German, were united with the Diocese of Metz. Nancy however annexed the arrondissement of Briey which remained French, and was detached from the Diocese of Metz (consistorial decrees of 10 and 14 July, 1874).


The annexation of a part of the French territory increased the importance of Nancy. As an out- post, situated near the border, it was a city full of barracks but, at the same time, it was a place of safety for a great number of industrialists who refused to adopt German nationality. The drift from the land also benefited the city since much housing had to be built.


Now we have a historical context to which we can use to view this knife and its possible ‘symbology’. Yes it has, at first glance demonic conertations, but I feel there are other possible explainations to the dagger’s decoration.



1. The skull and crossbones…….death, mortality

2. The sacred heart (on hilt)…. The Sacred Heart of Jesus is today one of the most recognizable symbols of the Catholic faith. The image originated in France near the end of the seventeenth century. The bishop of Marseille, Monseigneur de Belsunce, consecrated his diocese to the Sacred Heart in an effort to spare the region from plague. The plague passed over Marseille, and the symbol became very popular, associated with acts of charity and piety and used as a charm against plague.
3.The cross of Lorraine (small on hilt) …… In the XIXth century, the cross of Lorraine was included among the iconographical attributes of Joan of Arc, who was from Lorraine. After the incorporation of a great part of Lorraine to Germany following the 1870 war, the cross of Lorraine became a symbol of memory and resistance.
The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen. In the Middle-Ages, the hill was a place of prayer for the Crusaders, and received the name of Zion (in French, Sion). It is said that René de Vaudémont defeated Charles le Téméraire under the banner of Notre-Dame de Sion.
4. The Owl…….(as already discussed) In many parts of the world, owls have been associated with death and misfortune, likely due to their nocturnal activity and common screeching call. However, owls have also been associated with wisdom and prosperity as a result of frequently being companion animals for goddesses.
5. The Torch…… A torch, like a candle, represents life. A torch seen ablaze represents immortality, the everlasting life, and wisdom (like the lamp--a symbol of knowledge). Conversely, an inverted torch symbolizes death--a life extinguished. However, the inverted torch in this case….is still ablaze…..flames rising upward. (If it was put right way up the flames would be travelling downward ?) I believe that this translates to ‘not quite dead’ as if ready to spring to life when the opportunity arises……..ie the French beaten but the flames of resistance is very much alive
6. The crossed swords…… as symbol of armed force……being crossed could have religious conertations or as an idiom means to have a grevance or disagreement with. Perhaps with the torch symbol means ‘we (the French) maybe down……but are ready and waiting to defeat German rule…..
7. The demon/devil…….winged examples are usually shown as having membraneous wings (like a bat) as feathers are associated with angels. This Demon has the ‘framework’ for such wings but no membrane visible…..this suggests to me the demon is unable to fly and is therefore….somehow ‘disabled’.
Its arms are crossed…….seems to be waiting,….. or showing defiance ??
Its legs are entwined , it seems immobile, trapped………
We could summise, with the political/social problems at the time…..that this could be symbolic of the ‘evil intent’ or feeling against the Germans that at present, is not at ‘full strength’ and that the ‘beast’ is waiting for the opportunity to gather its power.

There are other demon/devil decoration on the Hilt, which I think could be just…..decoration……
Carvers of the earlier Romanesque period, especially in France, had produced more monsters and demons than any others in the whole history of Christian art, occupying prominent positions such as door heads, corbels and porches. Indeed, they occasionally outnumbered the Christian images, and their use was condemned by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the twelfth century. During the Gothic period they very gradually assumed minor positions, sinking at last to the level of mere parody. It has been observed that such carvings are almost antipathetic to Romanesque and Gothic architecture, and represent survivals of earlier pagan beliefs still dear to the people. The prominent place given to the demon in the picture is symbolic, as is its pairing with another satanic creature, the bat, which (like the owl) was singled out for unfavourable mention in the Old Testament. The devilish position of bats in European folklore is usually explained by their demonic faces and inverted life-style. (They live by night, appear to 'see' in the dark and hang upside down when they sleep.)

In conclusion, there is a distinct possibility that this knife, although beautifully made, is a ‘commemorative’ inspired knife, sure it has, what many would describe as satanistic decoration. But the facts and views above, cast serious doubt on this definitely being a ‘Satanic’ dagger.


The other dagger, that Spiral and I both posted......has a simple, functional look about it, the figure on the hilt is indeed 'demonic' and seems more likely to be 'satanic' than the other two.......mind you....the figure looks familiar..............A Batman fantasy knife....afterall he did live in Gothic ....sorry, Gotham City :D :D :p


ADDED NOTE....the owl on the sheath is 'perched' on a 'cresent' or possibly a representation of The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen.

[Bill M]

Excellent post Katana! I am continually amazed by the depth of discussion here.

Glad that you are keeping it in the realm of ethnographic weapons, ie, the dagger(s).

Also that you examine in terms of historical and geographical context. Very important!

Good job!

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Katana!!!!:)
Outstanding and fascinating information and very well presented. You are really adding some great dimension to material associated to these daggers and I am very much enjoying the historical data you are sharing.

Vandoo, some excellent perceptive ideas and observations, that really set us to thinking more on these daggers and the symbolism. I like your note on the possibility of such daggers with threaded screw on blades having alternative motif for varying occasions, interesting idea that recalls a number of edged weapon forms with interchangeable components.

It is interesting that secret societies, occultism and paganism, regarded as sinister and with suspicion , are parallelled in varying degree in the animism, folk religion and secret societies of ethnographic cultures that are regarded as significant in a generally more positive sense it seems in most cases. In that sense, it seems almost that these very esoteric weapons are in a fashion the ethnographica of our own culture .

The thread keeps getting better and better!!
I keep wanting more of this intriguing data and the interesting arcane weapons being posted. Thank you!

All best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

I think the most interesting factor in this thread is that somewhat specious assessment or perception of an unusually decorated dagger from the original post evolved into some fascinating discussion and posts concerning some extremely esoteric material. Subsequent review and presentation of developing opinions and some very well supported ideas led to very plausible solutions to the meaning of the unusual motif. I also think that for the most part the members have maintained outstanding control despite some unfortunately barbed comments that were entirely unnecessary.

Many of these, however, in my 'opinion' were perhaps wry, misguided attempts at humor? that perhaps arose from either misinterpretation or perception of comments that appear to derive from flawed linguistic syntax or misspelled words. As has been noted, written communication typically lacks necessary sensitivity, and often transliteration completely inhibits delivery in the case of humor.

In the instance of Spiral reemphasizing my own faux pas in expressing an unsupported observation concerning the viewing of scabbards, despite the manner in which he expressed his comments, I presume that he did not intend to sound insulting. Actually it was a good reminder that one cannot be too careful in making statements in friendly discussion, even if you carefully qualify your comment. It is important to remember that the comments you make, regardless of how well qualified, are not necessarily well interpreted by those who read them.

This thread has been extremely informative, and I have very much enjoyed the posts and discussion, though of course, inconclusive. I think we have all learned quite a lot about these theme daggers as well as on the elusive daggers of occult regalia. The topic has proven, as may be expected, extremely difficult, as it does not lend itself well to the expectations of those who adhere closely to restrictive academic perameters regardless of the character of the discussion at hand.

In all, a very exhilerating thread! :)

All best regards,
Jim


Thankyou Jim,, My error perhaps but your statements & judgments in friendly discusians always sounds like prounocmemts of authority......

A great skill indeed.Many teachers have it.

I do need to point out though that I didnt reemphasise your "faux paus" Wolveix did... I just ansered his comment.

I did ask for actual evidence, sorry if that too academic a request, just to find someone on this forum with expierience of 19th century cast figural knives & or satanic gaggers doesnt strike me as particularily academic though.

Spiral

[spiral]

Intrigued by ‘Satanistic’ daggers I began investigating one of the daggers you have posted…..
i.e the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.


On Bernard’s site the knife is stated as marked “ Fait a Nancy en 1871 par Florian ROYAL” this translates to “ Made in Nancy in 1871 for Royal Florian’ .

Seems strange that a ‘covert’ dagger would have where its made and whom for…clearly marked on it……

Historically, in 1871 ….

The Franco-Prussian War (July 19, 1870 – May 10, 1871) was declared by France on Prussia, which was backed by the North German Confederation and the south German states of Baden, Württemberg and Bavaria. The conflict marked the culmination of tension between the two powers following Prussia's rise to dominance in Germany, which before 1866 was still a loose federation of quasi-independent territories.

More info here (yes Spiral, Wikipedia again… ;) :p …..there are many other references but this one is fairly concise )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War


This war caused political and social upheaval….


1871-1918:
At the time of the French defeat of 1871, the German-speaking parts of the département of Meurthe and of the département of Moselle were merged to build one of the 3 districts of the Alsace-Lorraine Reichsland:


France lost Alsace-Lorraine in 1871, Nancy lost the arrondissements of Sarrebourg and Château-Salins which, having become German, were united with the Diocese of Metz. Nancy however annexed the arrondissement of Briey which remained French, and was detached from the Diocese of Metz (consistorial decrees of 10 and 14 July, 1874).


The annexation of a part of the French territory increased the importance of Nancy. As an out- post, situated near the border, it was a city full of barracks but, at the same time, it was a place of safety for a great number of industrialists who refused to adopt German nationality. The drift from the land also benefited the city since much housing had to be built.


Now we have a historical context to which we can use to view this knife and its possible ‘symbology’. Yes it has, at first glance demonic conertations, but I feel there are other possible explainations to the dagger’s decoration.



1. The skull and crossbones…….death, mortality

2. The sacred heart (on hilt)…. The Sacred Heart of Jesus is today one of the most recognizable symbols of the Catholic faith. The image originated in France near the end of the seventeenth century. The bishop of Marseille, Monseigneur de Belsunce, consecrated his diocese to the Sacred Heart in an effort to spare the region from plague. The plague passed over Marseille, and the symbol became very popular, associated with acts of charity and piety and used as a charm against plague.
3.The cross of Lorraine (small on hilt) …… In the XIXth century, the cross of Lorraine was included among the iconographical attributes of Joan of Arc, who was from Lorraine. After the incorporation of a great part of Lorraine to Germany following the 1870 war, the cross of Lorraine became a symbol of memory and resistance.
The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen. In the Middle-Ages, the hill was a place of prayer for the Crusaders, and received the name of Zion (in French, Sion). It is said that René de Vaudémont defeated Charles le Téméraire under the banner of Notre-Dame de Sion.
4. The Owl…….(as already discussed) In many parts of the world, owls have been associated with death and misfortune, likely due to their nocturnal activity and common screeching call. However, owls have also been associated with wisdom and prosperity as a result of frequently being companion animals for goddesses.
5. The Torch…… A torch, like a candle, represents life. A torch seen ablaze represents immortality, the everlasting life, and wisdom (like the lamp--a symbol of knowledge). Conversely, an inverted torch symbolizes death--a life extinguished. However, the inverted torch in this case….is still ablaze…..flames rising upward. (If it was put right way up the flames would be travelling downward ?) I believe that this translates to ‘not quite dead’ as if ready to spring to life when the opportunity arises……..ie the French beaten but the flames of resistance is very much alive
6. The crossed swords…… as symbol of armed force……being crossed could have religious conertations or as an idiom means to have a grevance or disagreement with. Perhaps with the torch symbol means ‘we (the French) maybe down……but are ready and waiting to defeat German rule…..
7. The demon/devil…….winged examples are usually shown as having membraneous wings (like a bat) as feathers are associated with angels. This Demon has the ‘framework’ for such wings but no membrane visible…..this suggests to me the demon is unable to fly and is therefore….somehow ‘disabled’.
Its arms are crossed…….seems to be waiting,….. or showing defiance ??
Its legs are entwined , it seems immobile, trapped………
We could summise, with the political/social problems at the time…..that this could be symbolic of the ‘evil intent’ or feeling against the Germans that at present, is not at ‘full strength’ and that the ‘beast’ is waiting for the opportunity to gather its power.

There are other demon/devil decoration on the Hilt, which I think could be just…..decoration……
Carvers of the earlier Romanesque period, especially in France, had produced more monsters and demons than any others in the whole history of Christian art, occupying prominent positions such as door heads, corbels and porches. Indeed, they occasionally outnumbered the Christian images, and their use was condemned by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the twelfth century. During the Gothic period they very gradually assumed minor positions, sinking at last to the level of mere parody. It has been observed that such carvings are almost antipathetic to Romanesque and Gothic architecture, and represent survivals of earlier pagan beliefs still dear to the people. The prominent place given to the demon in the picture is symbolic, as is its pairing with another satanic creature, the bat, which (like the owl) was singled out for unfavourable mention in the Old Testament. The devilish position of bats in European folklore is usually explained by their demonic faces and inverted life-style. (They live by night, appear to 'see' in the dark and hang upside down when they sleep.)

In conclusion, there is a distinct possibility that this knife, although beautifully made, is a ‘commemorative’ inspired knife, sure it has, what many would describe as satanistic decoration. But the facts and views above, cast serious doubt on this definitely being a ‘Satanic’ dagger.


The other dagger, that Spiral and I both posted......has a simple, functional look about it, the figure on the hilt is indeed 'demonic' and seems more likely to be 'satanic' than the other two.......mind you....the figure looks familiar..............A Batman fantasy knife....afterall he did live in Gothic ....sorry, Gotham City :D :D :p


ADDED NOTE....the owl on the sheath is 'perched' on a 'cresent' or possibly a representation of The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen.


Thanks Katana!

Indeed theres is tons of information by Bernard Levine one of the worlds leading authoritys on these daggers as well as other American & European knives & daggers.

Sadley I am not allowed to share it though. {rules are rules.}


The comments on the BRL satanic dagger are valid from photo shown but if you search a little more you can find many closeups & breakdowns of the analisis of that dagger , many of which you cant see in that photo.

Spiral

[spiral]

I MUST ADMIT I AM A BIT SHY ABOUT GETTING INTO THIS AS I AM NOT AN EXPERT IN THIS TYPE OF ARTEFACT NOR HAVE I A LARGE COLLECTION OF THEM AND HAVE NOT CAREEFULLY RESEARCHED THE SUBJECT OF SATAN WORSHIP NOR PRACTICED IT. SO ANYTHING I SAY WILL BASED ON LOGIC AND MY PERSONEL OPINIONS SO I HOPE I DON'T WASTE ANYONES TIME , AND I HOPE I DON'T GET MY TAIL FEATHERS SCORCHED OFF :eek:

I HAVE SEEN AND HANDLED QUITE A FEW KNIVES OF THIS TYPE FROM THE EARLY 1960'S UNTIL THE LAST ONE IN THE 1990'S. THEY WERE AT GUN SHOWS AND WERE ALWAYS TOO HIGH PRICED FOR ME TO EVER OWN ONE BUT I ALWAYS ENJOYED LOOKING AT THE VARIETY AND EXCELLENT WORKMANSHIP. I DON'T REMBER EVER SEEING A EXAMPLE THAT SHOWED A LOT OF WEAR FROM USE ALTHOUGH THEY DID SHOW AGE AND A FEW HAD BEEN ABUSED BY SOME CHILD OR ADULT DOLT. I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE EXAMPLE MISSING ITS SCABBARD THIS WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT THE DAGGERS WERE USUALLY VERY WELL TAKEN CARE OF AND WERE VERY EXPENSIVE WHEN THEY WERE MADE AND DURING THE PERIOD OF THEIR USE. OFTEN THEY WERE DESCRIBED AS WITCHCRAFT DAGGERS OR ASSOCIATED WITH SECERET SOCIETYS.

I THINK THEY USUALLY WERE CUSTOM MADE OR TO SHOW OFF THE SKILL OF THE MAKERS AND REFLECTED THE CURRENT FASHONS OF THE SOCIETY AT THE TIME. I ALSO EXPECT THAT ONLY THE RICH OR WEALTHY PEOPLE BELONGING TO A SECERET SOCIETY COULD HAVE AFFORDED THEM. THERE WERE MANY SECRET SOCIETYS IN THE PAST IN MOST COUNTRYS SOME STILL EXHIST AND MANY DO NOT. THE SKULL SYMBOL IS OFTEN A REMINDER OF MANS MORTALITY AS WE ALL PONDER DEATH FROM TIME TO TIME. MOST OF THE OTHER SYMBOLS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED ALSO HAVE SEVERAL WAYS OF INTREPETING THEM.
MANY OF THE THINGS SAID TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH SATAN WORSHIP WERE RELATED TO THE OLD IDEAS OF NATURE WORSHIP WHICH IS NOT SATANISM OR WITCHCRAFT BUT A REVERENCE FOR NATURE AND THE FORCE OR FORCES THAT CREATED EVERYTHING. IN THE PROCESS OF ONE RELIGION DISPOSING OF A OLDER LOCAL RELIGION ALL SUCH BELIEFS AND THEIR SYMBOLS WERE SAID TO BE OF THE DEVIL AND FEARSOME EXAMPLES WERE MADE OF PEOPLE TO TRY AND STAMP OUT SUCH PRACTICES.
MANY SECRET SOCIETYS EVOLVED FROM THIS AND BEING SECRET I AM SURE THEY HAD SECRET SIGNS AND MEETINGS SO IF HISTORY NOTES THEM AT ALL IT WILL BE FROM THE VIEWS OF THOSE WHO FIND AND DESTROY THEM. IF THEY BELONGED TO SUCH A SOCIETY AND IT IS STILL IN EXHISTANCE I DOUBT THAT THE KNIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOLD UNLESS A THIEF TOOK IT.
PERHAPS THERE ARE THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN AND HOPE TO GAIN WEALTH AND POWER THRU IT BUT I WOULD THINK THEY WOULD BE FAR AND FEW IN BETWEEN THROUGHT HISTORY. MANY OF THE THINGS YOU READ ABOUT BLACK MASSES, HUMAN SACRIFICE, SUMMONING DEAMONS , VAMPIRES, DRAGONS AND ORGES ARE BASED ON OLD TALES, BOOKS, MOVIES AND SUCH. SOME CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN THESE STORYS AND TRY TO BECOME A MASTER OF THE BLACK ARTS OR A WICKED WITCH AND MAY DO SOME TERRIBLE SECRET THINGS AND BECOME FEARED AS A DEAMON IN HUMAN FORM. THIS IS THEIR DOING BUT I FEEL THEY DON'T GET ANY REAL POWER FROM IT AND IT IS A FORM OF ROLE PLAYING GAME. THE DEVIL WILL OF COURSE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS FOR HIS OWN ENDS BUT IS A FRIEND TO NO MAN.

FIGURES FROM GREEK, ROMAN, EGYPTIAN AND OTHER TIMES AND COUNTRYS HAVE BECOME THE FASHON IN ART THROUGHOUT HISTORY. PERHAPS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO BOUGHT OR ORDERED THE DAGGER MADE WOULD KNOW WHAT ALL THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR, PERHAPS NOT. A SECRET SOCIETY WOULD KNOW WHAT THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR AND THEY WOULD BE A PART OF THEIR CREDO.
I WOULD THINK THAT ONE WHO PRACTEDED THE BLACK ARTS WOULD HAVE SOME PROTECTIVE SPELLS AND DEADLY CURSES INCORPORATED INTO THE DESIGNS UNLESS CURSES AND SPELLS CAN ONLY BE SPOKEN.? BUT I DON'T SEE WHY THEY WOULD HAVE RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS OF THE CHURCH AND SUCH ON A IMPLEMENT THEY PLANNED TO USE TO DESICRATE THE CHURCH AND RELIGION. :confused:

SOME POSSIBILITYS FOR THE ORIGINAL DAGGER WOULD BE
1. ONE OR MORE EXAMPLES WERE MADE TO BE PRESENTED AS GIFTS TO SOME IMPORTANT PERSON. PERHAPS VICTOR HUGO HIMSELF? IF YOU COULD PROVE THAT IT WOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN A MERE SATANIC DAGGER :D

2. AN ARTIST LIKED THE BOOK AND WAS INSPIRED TO MAKE THE KNIFE OR SOMEONE ELSE COMMISIONED IT AS HE WAS A FAN OF VICTOR HUGO.

3. THE VICTOR HUGO FAN CLUB HAD THEM MADE IN THE THOUSANDS FOR ALL MEMBERS ;) OR NOT :p

I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OF THESE DAGGERS TAKEN APART BEFORE AND WONDER IF VERY MANY KNIVES WERE MADE WITH THE DETACHABLE BLADE AND IF IT MIGHT HAVE HAD MULTIPLE BLADES FOR DIFFERENT USES?

MY GUT FEELING ABOUT THIS TYPE OF KNIFE IS THAT IT WAS NOT MADE FOR USE BY THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN. BUT IN THE YEARS SINCE ITS CREATION WHO KNOWS WHO HAS HAD IT OR WHAT THEY HAVE USED IT FOR. AS THEY HAVE BEEN SOLD AS DAGGERS RELATED TO WITCHCRAFT, ECT. AT LEAST SINCE THE EARLY 1960'S.

SORRY I CAN'T LAY ALL THE INFORMATION OF THE TYPE AND THE HISTORY ON YOU . BUT REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT IS ITS A REAL SWEET DAGGER AND IT HAS BEEN A VERY INTERESTING DISCUSSION. :D

PS. THE SWASTKA IS ALSO AN ANCIANT SYMBOL USED BY SOME OF THE AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBES, A VERY OLD SYMBOL BUT NOTHING EVIL ABOUT IT.


Thankyou Vandoo for your thoughtfull & informitave input. Particularily regarding thier more recent history.

Spiral

[David]

Indeed theres is tons of information by Bernard Levine one of the worlds leading authoritys on these daggers as well as other American & European knives & daggers.
Sadley I am not allowed to share it though. {rules are rules.}


Spiral, i have followed the thread on Bernard Levine's forum discussion. At first he stated that he didn't think yours was one of what he calls "satanic daggers". He did finally come around to a "could be" after much discussion, but i saw nowhere where he difinitively stated he thought your knife was such a dagger. When someone tried to make a link to this forum's dicussion for a different perspective it was sqaushed. I am sorry that you are finding it difficult that people here don't agree with you.

"I did ask for actual evidence, sorry if that too academic a request, just to find someone on this forum with expierience of 19th century cast figural knives & or satanic gaggers doesnt strike me as particularily academic though."

Quite a bit of well researched factual evidence has been presented by various people in this thread. No, they do not have the distinction of being expert in the very specific field of 19th century figural cast & or satanic daggers, but that doesn't mean their answers hold no academic worth or that they can't be weighed against this case. Without actual provenence of the maker or original owner i am afraid we will never have a definitive answe as to theorigins of this knife. Even the one expert in this field whom you have named (but whose opinion you cannot speak) cannot and has not given you that definitive answer.

[spiral]

Spiral, i have followed the thread on Bernard Levine's forum discussion. At first he stated that he didn't think yours was one of what he calls "satanic daggers". He did finally come around to a "could be" after much discussion, but i saw nowhere where he difinitively stated he thought your knife was such a dagger. When someone tried to make a link to this forum's dicussion for a different perspective it was sqaushed. I am sorry that you are finding it difficult that people here don't agree with you.

"I did ask for actual evidence, sorry if that too academic a request, just to find someone on this forum with expierience of 19th century cast figural knives & or satanic gaggers doesnt strike me as particularily academic though."

Quite a bit of well researched factual evidence has been presented by various people in this thread. No, they do not have the distinction of being expert in the very specific field of 19th century figural cast & or satanic daggers, but that doesn't mean their answers hold no academic worth or that they can't be weighed against this case. Without actual provenence of the maker or original owner i am afraid we will never have a definitive answe as to theorigins of this knife. Even the one expert in this field whom you have named (but whose opinion you cannot speak) cannot and has not given you that definitive answer.

My referance was to The BRL dagger, katana refered to.

Any quashing was by me, no one else.

I dont find it difficult that people dont agree with me, thats fine, I was just hoping to find more facts about cast figural handles daggers of the 19th century.

Spiral

[David]

My referance was to The BRL dagger, katana refered to.

Any quashing was by me, no one else.

I dont find it difficult that people dont agree with me, thats fine, I was just hoping to find more facts about cast figural handles daggers of the 19th century.

Spiral

I never implied that anyone other than yourself did the quashing.
The daggers you are researching are no doubt a very specialized field. I wouldn't image there are too many other "experts" other than Levine. He could not definitively ID your dagger as one of these so-called "satanic" daggers, so i don't know who you think will.
Meanwhile the evidence presented here, while not definitive, has at least been academic, relative and deeply interesting and has presented an alternative to your theory through reasoning and critical analysis that is an extremely viable, and IMO likely answer to the origins of you dagger. What it seems you are really hoping for is only information that will verify your claims.

[VANDOO]

I JUST THOUGHT OF A POSSIBLE DIRECTION OF RESEARCH YOU MIGHT TRY ,I SAW QUITE A FEW OF THE HIGHLY DECORATIVE CAST HANDLES IN THE LARGE ARMS MUSEUM NEAR THE EIFEL TOWER IN PARIS. PERHAPS YOU COULD CONTACT THEM AND TAKE SOME PICTURES TO SEND THEM FOR AN OPINION, IF THERE IS A SPECIALIST IN THIS SORT OF WORK THEY SHOULD KNOW WHO IT IS AND HOW TO CONTACT THEM. MANY OF THE EXAMPLES I SAW CONSISTED OF SETS OF SWORD AND DAGGER AND THE MAKERS WERE KNOWN SO A GOOD ONCE OVER WITH A GOOD MAGNIFIENG GLASS LOOKING FOR MARKS OR SIGNATURES MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. OFTEN MARKINGS ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ON HIGHLY DECORATED ARTISTIC WORKS.

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY OF THIS TYPE OF DAGGER AT GUN SHOWS IN THE USA OVER THE YEARS I SUSPECT MANY CAME BACK AS WAR SOUVINEERS FROM THE 2 WORLD WARS. THE GERMANS WOULD CERTIANLY HAVE TAKEN THEM AND THE AMERICAN GI. WOULD THEN TAKE THEM FROM THE GERMANS. I WONDER IF MANY OF THESE HAVE TURNED UP IN RUSSIA AS WELL? SOME WOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN SOLD OR TRADED DURING THE HARD TIMES AFTER THE WARS AS WELL.

[spiral]

I never implied that anyone other than yourself did the quashing.
The daggers you are researching are no doubt a very specialized field. I wouldn't image there are too many other "experts" other than Levine. He could not definitively ID your dagger as one of these so-called "satanic" daggers, so i don't know who you think will.
Meanwhile the evidence presented here, while not definitive, has at least been academic, relative and deeply interesting and has presented an alternative to your theory through reasoning and critical analysis that is an extremely viable, and IMO likely answer to the origins of you dagger. What it seems you are really hoping for is only information that will verify your claims.

Certnley , I just pointed it out about the quashing to save anyone misunderstanding.

Of course I would like my Opinion verified! :D

But I would be happy to have verification of exactly what it is even if it is a suggested by some either 19th century Franklin Mint or indeed A notre Damn tourist dagger!

The TRUTH is what matters!

But this piece seems to have generated such intrest that I am rather shocked, but this thread has at least prooved the rarity of such pieces.

Sure I continue to point that out in the face of some of the comments & oppinions I have read throughout this thread.

The general discusian itself has been intresting, as well, & thankyou for your input & rest assured if I ever find Kriss your one of the expierienced peoples opinions I would first seek.

Spiral

[spiral]

I JUST THOUGHT OF A POSSIBLE DIRECTION OF RESEARCH YOU MIGHT TRY ,I SAW QUITE A FEW OF THE HIGHLY DECORATIVE CAST HANDLES IN THE LARGE ARMS MUSEUM NEAR THE EIFEL TOWER IN PARIS. PERHAPS YOU COULD CONTACT THEM AND TAKE SOME PICTURES TO SEND THEM FOR AN OPINION, IF THERE IS A SPECIALIST IN THIS SORT OF WORK THEY SHOULD KNOW WHO IT IS AND HOW TO CONTACT THEM. MANY OF THE EXAMPLES I SAW CONSISTED OF SETS OF SWORD AND DAGGER AND THE MAKERS WERE KNOWN SO A GOOD ONCE OVER WITH A GOOD MAGNIFIENG GLASS LOOKING FOR MARKS OR SIGNATURES MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. OFTEN MARKINGS ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ON HIGHLY DECORATED ARTISTIC WORKS.

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY OF THIS TYPE OF DAGGER AT GUN SHOWS IN THE USA OVER THE YEARS I SUSPECT MANY CAME BACK AS WAR SOUVINEERS FROM THE 2 WORLD WARS. THE GERMANS WOULD CERTIANLY HAVE TAKEN THEM AND THE AMERICAN GI. WOULD THEN TAKE THEM FROM THE GERMANS. I WONDER IF MANY OF THESE HAVE TURNED UP IN RUSSIA AS WELL? SOME WOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN SOLD OR TRADED DURING THE HARD TIMES AFTER THE WARS AS WELL.


Thankyou Vandoo that is a great suggestion. Someting solid at last!

By any chance do you have the name of the museam?


Spiral

[VANDOO]

THE MUSEUM IS CALLED ( LE INVALIDES) MUSEUM LE ARMY, IT IS JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE EFIL TOWER AND NAPOLEANS TOMB IS IN THE BACK OF IT. IT IS A VERY GOOD MUSEUM AND WELL WORTH A VISIT IF YOU EVER VISIT PARIS. I HAD TO LOOK IT UP IN MY LIST OF MUSEUMS VISITED TO BE SURE THERE ARE 267 LISTED BOY AM I A MUSEUM GEEK :D
GOOD LUCK

[spiral]

THE MUSEUM IS CALLED ( LE INVALIDES) MUSEUM LE ARMY, IT IS JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE EFIL TOWER AND NAPOLEANS TOMB IS IN THE BACK OF IT. IT IS A VERY GOOD MUSEUM AND WELL WORTH A VISIT IF YOU EVER VISIT PARIS. I HAD TO LOOK IT UP IN MY LIST OF MUSEUMS VISITED TO BE SURE THERE ARE 267 LISTED BOY AM I A MUSEUM GEEK :D
GOOD LUCK


Once again thankyou again Vandoo! Your constructive help is most appreciated.

I will visit this year indeed. It also gives me the excuse to visit a friend that is overdue.

Cheers,

Spiral

[katana]

Hi Spiral,
I have now gained the 'close up' pictures of the Bernard Lavine 'satanic' dagger and am currently researching the symbolism. At first glance the 'extra' designs do look satanic but early 'searches' seem to cast doubt on this.

However, I found this hunting sword, which has a figural hilt and ornate scabbard from France and of a similar period to your dagger. The scabbard re-inforces the fact that yours should be viewed as if the church/cathedral is upside down....but I firmly believe...as I stated before...that this symbolism is not 'satanic' but from the underlying theme of Hugo's story.


Hunting sword, ca. 1851
French (Paris)
Silver, cast, chased, partly gilt; gilt copper; steel; L. (overall, sword in scabbard) 24 3/4 in. (63 cm)

hunting sword is a masterpiece of the Gothic Revival style and a virtuoso demonstration of mid-nineteenth-century design and craftsmanship, which were greatly stimulated by the series held of international exhibitions in London and Paris in the 1840s–60s.
The grip is fashioned as a deep architectural niche formed of pierced strapwork and foliage, partly gilt, into which is set a figure, cast and chased in the round, of Saint Hubert, patron of the hunt. The cross-shaped guard is inhabited by three dogs, modeled with naturalistic detail, in pursuit of a fox, which cowers at the front of the quillon block; on the end of one quillon an eagle seizes its prey, a crane.

From the mid-sixteenth century, the French were unrivaled in the field of highly decorated, deluxe arms. This sword demonstrates that this tradition had not diminished 300 years later.

[spiral]

Hi Katana,

Thanks for the further the photographic example, showing scabbard orientation.

Thats a very fancy piece!

Good luck with your research & developing suppositions. ;)

Spiral

[katana]

Close-up photos of the Florian Satanic dagger reveal further symbolism not previously noticeable.

The pommel end of the hilt shows a bat with the ‘body’ in a heart shape.
The sacred heart (if winged) usually has ‘birds’ wings. Could suggest satanic meaning or that the heart of an individual/ Nation has been taken or ‘captured’ by an 'evil' / malignant force

The ‘winged hour glass’ signifies the ‘fleetness’ of time…mortality or time running/run out. Again the wings are very bat like, bats are seen as dwellers of the underworld, the abode of the dead.

On the cross guard is a face…which has been suggested ( B.L. Forum) as the ‘green man’... a pagan symbol. However I think the features are more Lion –esque, it could be a lioness or young male lion due to the lack of a full main. Alternatively, it could be, the lack of main may be symbolic that the lion has lost its prestige and power. The Lion symbolises strength, loyalty, courage, royalty; power; guardian or fallen hero

On the cross guard are coiled Ram’s horns

The ram has come to represent male fertility, aggression, and courage. A ram's horn is part of a cornucopia, the "horn of plenty", symbolizing abundance. In history, rams were often symbols of leadership. It is also associated with sacrifice both physical and spiritual.

In English, the word trumpet appears many in scripture and many times it is referring to the ram's horn as opposed to the Chatzotzrah, a long, straight trumpet made usually of silver or gold. At Mount Sinai when the Jewish people received the law of Moses, it was accompanied by several miraculous signs (Exodus 19:16) among which was the shrill sound of a shofar that emanated from the sacred mountain. Later on when Joshua led the siege of Jericho, it was the blasts of the shofars (Joshua 6:20) that triggered the collapse of those impregnable walls. Still later, in the time of Gideon, it was a band of only 300 men (Judges 7:15-23) which at God's command scattered the mighty Midianites by smashing pitchers and blowing the shofar. A shofar is a curved horn taken straight from a male sheep commemorating the sacrifice of Isaac when at the last moment God provided a ram that had its horn caught in the thicket. Horns of cows were rejected because these animals were associated with the worship of the Golden Calf by the Children of Israel in the desert, a sin vigorously condemned by Moses.

In classical mythology……
In China and India, rams were the steeds of the gods. There and in other countries, rams were associated with unicorns. The nations around Israel portrayed Baal and Rashap with ram's horns. Ea, the pagan god of Destiny and the Ocean was represented by a ram's head set on top of a column. In Egypt, rams were sacred to Amun, Khnum, Osiris, and the cult sites of Elephantine and Mendes. Each year, Amun, the ram-headed creator of the universe, was sacrificed in the form of a ram which was mourned and buried with great honour in a sacred tomb at Thebes. The Celtic fertility god, Cernunnos, had a ram-headed serpent as one of his attributes. The bleating of the ram and the spiral shape of its horns made it a universal symbol of thunder and thunder-gods such as Shango, Thor, and Benin.


Interestly there is also this …

The golden ratio is present in the horns of the Ram
It has also been known for a long time that the Golden Ratio (Golden Section, Golden Mean or Divine Proportion) enables to build a logarithmic spiral easily.

Some of the greatest mathematical minds of all ages, from Pythagoras and Euclid in ancient Greece, through the medieval Italian mathematician Leonardo of Pisa and the Renaissance astronomer Johannes Kepler, to present-day scientific figures such as Oxford physicist Roger Penrose, have spent endless hours over this simple ratio and its properties. But the fascination with the Golden Ratio is not confined just to mathematicians. Biologists, artists, musicians, historians, architects, psychologists, and even mystics have pondered and debated the basis of its ubiquity and appeal. In fact, it is probably fair to say that the Golden Ratio has inspired thinkers of all disciplines like no other number in the history of mathematics.
More info here. Or Google ‘Golden Ratio’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio
The Freemasons also hold the ‘Golden Ratio’ in high esteem, also here is shown the ‘pentagram’ and its relation to the ‘GR’..
http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:-2N23WrSq70J:freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/pentagram.html+the+golden+ratio,+masons&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=3

The Crossed Swords. And Inverted Torch.

As can be seen the two swords are of differing styles…..symbolic of conflict, also posted an American emblem dispaying this configuration with the torch ‘right way’ up (The French were beaten) and therefore, in this case, it means victory.
As stated before…..the inverted torch usually means death….a life extinguished. However, if you compare the Tomb symbol with the torch on the scabbard you will notice the flames are rising upward, and as I mentioned before, feel that this symbolises that the life is still ‘smouldering’…not extinguished.

The demonic / Satan figure

It is mentioned on the B.L. forum that the face is a Fleur de Lys a French National symbol. The three petals of the heraldic design reflect a widespread association with the Holy Trinity, a tradition going back to 14th century France.
IMHO I’m not so sure. I am wondering whether it is ‘demonisation’ of the enemy (German stereotype or of an individual) I found an image of a statue of Helmuth von Moltke the Elder, Tiergarten, Berlin. He organised and directed the attack on France in the Franco-Prussian war. I cannot date the statue…..but notice the unusual pose……strange for a Military leader…..crossed arms and legs…(also an unusual pose for Satan) ..facially similar too. Or also quite likely a demonisation of Napoleon III , the ruler that had let his people down, notice the ‘long’ nose and very similar beard/moustache with the ‘Satan’ decoration.

To me there are no definitive interpretation of the symbolism that associates this with Satan or that of the turmoil of the Franco-Prussian conflict. The fact that it is dated and was made in Nancy, a city heavily affected by the conflict suggests to me that the Satanic angle is less likely…..but that is only my opinion.

Bernard Levine actually states that this ‘satanic’ dagger is the first and only one he has seen that is ‘signed’. He also states that these daggers seem to increase in number after major conflicts that the French have lost i.e. the Napoleonic wars, the Franco-Prussian war, WW1, WW2 etc. Could this be a traditional attitude… to produce a sort of ‘revenge’ dagger full of evil intent to her enemies ???

The last two images are a German Busby, Braunschweig’s Hussar Regiment Nr 17. Whose honors covered both the Napoleonic Wars and the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871. The sight of the 'skull and crossbones' would be fresh in the minds of the people of Nancy...

[spiral]

mmmmm I am speechless, {nearly.}

I thought you would realy look into this, dont know why but I thought you would.

Instead To me it looks more like a rather ugly self inflicted gunshot wound.

The danger of a few quick google searches strung together, With the preconcieved intent of showing its not satanist.

I thought you would just expouse your veiws on the daggers symbolism but instead you try & dismantle BRLs case here ,rather than to his face if thats what you realy wished to do, seems rather unsporting or in bad taste to me.

Having seen how BRL looks at knives etc. over many years of reading every post he does & having learnt a lot from amongst that. I think he presents a much more coherant case than yourself on this or any other piece I have ever seen him or you discuss..

Evry classic artist , Archictect & indeed even myself use various computations of the Golden mean in evrything we construct. I am glad you have discovered it, now you will see evrything you look at in a different light.

Good luck with the letter opener you recently bought, actualy I havent a clue what it is other than it appears probably homemade & I am sure any cutler would be ashamed of that blade. Actualy I would recomend you ask Bernard. ;)

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

More excellent research Katana!!! Nicely presented and referenced! :)
I have found the depth of your research outstanding in detailing the esoteric data on this very unusual topic and find your writing most interesting. I am very much enjoying your well stated observations and especially much of the literary and historical detection you have done.

Spiral,
It seems we both have similar goals in our writing here, to promote the study of edged weapons and encourage others to share thier often specialized knowledge and material concerning the weapons being discussed. Thereby we all gain by sharing our observations, ideas and as you have emphasized, supported evidence. I would note here that in my original note on the orientation in viewing decorated scabbards, I made it a point to clarify that my suggestion was indeed unsupported, despite the fact that there had been supporting documentation seen, though presently irretrievable. When Wolviex added that he too had seen similar material, in a subsequent post you made what was, in my opinion, a derisive comment suggesting that if we "ever remember it please post it here or PM me if in a few years time", as "neither of you can remember where you saw it". This to me sounds unnecessarily compromising as a comment to any serious weapons researcher.

Myself, and as been shown, many others here, are very serious in researching edged weapons. I think the many detailed and well thought out posts here should show that to be a profound fact, which you should find pleasing. Many of us who have been writing here for some time have learned that unfortunately there are many 'snipers' who lurk in our midst, and we make every effort to properly qualify our comments. Despite this, even in 'friendly' discussions, mistakes can be made, and none of us are infallible.

I was disappointed with your note that my "...statements and judgement in friendly discussions always sound like pronouncements of authority", which again I would presume to be meant rather derisively. Whenever I write on a topic here, before I write I spend considerable time researching and checking resources so that I can properly reference the material I present. This is simply to consolidate data available on the weapon being discussed, and is done in hopes that others with resources not included might join in by adding the material they have access to. Frankly, I always look forward to new or unknown material being presented! This way, not only me, but the members and readership all gain the benefit of comprehensive material as well as the observations and opinions of all participating.
This is a distinct advantage I think, to all, and I rather resent my work being termed any such 'pronouncements of authority'.

Having said that, once again I must emphasize that I am glad that you posted your knife and have promoted an extremely fascinating thread. You have noted that you yourself have considerable experience concerning these occult topics, including spending some 6 weeks in current research. Perhaps you might utilize the method noted of sharing some of your research results in order to build on existing material. I think this is considerably more effective than impatience or unkind and unnecessary comments, that I think have resulted from tension that seemingly often occurs in discussions on many very esoteric subjects.

I hope we can set aside these unfortunate misunderstandings, and simply return to 'friendly' (and I mean that sincerely !:) discussion on edged weapons, which as noted, I think has provided us here with one the most comprehensive threads on these occult and unusual theme daggers that has been compiled in years.

All best regards,
Jim

[katana]

mmmmm I am speechless, {nearly.}

I thought you would realy look into this, dont know why but I thought you would.

Instead To me it looks more like a rather ugly self inflicted gunshot wound.

The danger of a few quick google searches strung together, With the preconcieved intent of showing its not satanist.

I thought you would just expouse your veiws on the daggers symbolism but instead you try & dismantle BRLs case here ,rather than to his face if thats what you realy wished to do, seems rather unsporting or in bad taste to me.

Having seen how BRL looks at knives etc. over many years of reading every post he does & having learnt a lot from amongst that. I think he presents a much more coherant case than yourself on this or any other piece I have ever seen him or you discuss..

Evry classic artist , Archictect & indeed even myself use various computations of the Golden mean in evrything we construct. I am glad you have discovered it, now you will see evrything you look at in a different light.

Good luck with the letter opener you recently bought, actualy I havent a clue what it is other than it appears probably homemade & I am sure any cutler would be ashamed of that blade. Actualy I would recomend you ask Bernard. ;)
Spiral

Hi Spiral,
very disappointed that you did not read my post carefully....surely if anyone states that a FACT is a FACT ... if it should be attacked by differing views the FACTS should 'stand up' ???? I posted MY opinion.....in fact IT is easier to say that this is a Satanic Dagger.....any layman seeing the 'devil' and a few bats will look at this and say 'it must be something to do with the devil'.......Why? because in the 20th century...with Hammer Horror, Dennis Wheatly etc. we are all experts in the iconography of 'Devil worship', every school kid at Halloween knows about bats, devils, inverted crosses, black alter candles, etc. .....are they experts ....no......nor am I....but, the symbolism of the 19c is slightly different....a fact, you perhaps have missed. Like the Swastika, pre WW2 it didn't have the symbolism it has now. Our ancestors had a greater affinity to death itself, life expectancy was less, famine, plague, war and conflict more prevalent. They were more in touch with the notion of death and was more readily discussed than in todays Industrial societies. I never stated that Bernard was wrong, I am saying that this is open to interpretation and I am not totally convinced. If more information became available that further proved that this is indeed a 'satanistic' dagger, then I am 'OPEN' to the facts. You on the otherhand have already decided that this dagger, and your own... is Satanic.I am sorry that your themed dagger is not what you expected, its still a nice piece with some historical kudos. But to attack me with my 'letter opener' seems alittle sad, it is not applicable to this thread and has little to do with my opinion on this dagger. You previously stated that you wanted the truth.......if I am so wrong (which I concede I might be) why act so aggresively....surely my opinion is not so 'dangerous' to cause you upset.
Basically, I wanted to see if the symbology of the dagger could be interpreted in a 'different' light..... and I feel that it could be.....whats so wrong with that.....I have used factual interpretations....not fantasy...to support this view. It seems that you have a 'closed' mind on this subject....which would be a shame....knowledge is not 'blind', if a fact is not supported then is it still a FACT????

Oh, by the way I haven't 'just' discovered the Golden Ratio (mean) and nature has been using it a damn sight longer than you or I, or artists or architects..... The point was that the Rams horn could be a reference to a creator or divine plan.....its a possibility.

[Andrew]

Let's move on, please, gentlemen.

[David]

Good luck with the letter opener you recently bought, actualy I havent a clue what it is other than it appears probably homemade & I am sure any cutler would be ashamed of that blade. Actualy I would recomend you ask Bernard. ;) Spiral

Spiteful and ridiculously uncalled for Spiral! Try to focus and stay on topic. And if all you got out of Katana's recent post was his acknowledgement of the golden ratio you did some pretty sketchy skimming on his words. As for Bernard Levine"s case, any theory presented in the public spaces of the internet is open to examination and debate. His postion on the Florian dagger being a "satanic" dagger has been presented here by you on this forum. I see nothing unsporting or in bad taste about debating that opinion here. Mr. Levine is welcome to appear here if he wishes to defend or support his opinions himself. There is nothing in Katana's critique that shows any malice towards Mr. Levine. And untimately this is ALL opinion, even Mr. Levine's theories.
Nicely researched material Katana. But even more important than the references you uncovered is the simple understanding (so simple we so often miss it) that the signs and symbols that we identify with one thing today may have once had very different purpose and meaning 100 or more years ago. Real life is not a Hammer horror film starring Christopher Lee. Sometimes it's much worse. ;)

[spiral]

Come on chaps.

Cheer up, no need to take oneselfs so seriously.

A lot of defensivess some of which was based within your owns needs & internal veiws of the world perhaps?

It only an old dagger after all, even if the quantity of posts generated in such a short time do show it tpo be rather rather powerfull as well as rare & possiblyunique one.

& lets face it we have flogged this horse to death, resurected it , nailed it upside down & you still wish to thrash it again.

You percieve my comments in the way you do, I do the same with yours.

I have never read so much pompus bluster before that is clearly just to do with faith & belief.

sorry I am used to more in depth research reports & concepts from proffesionals & indeed my younger students. I apologise that my expectations were to high.

But thankyou to evryone who has helped in whatever way, particularily those who provided sources for further research or photographs of further examples of the correct way ;) :D to veiw these 19th century figural pieces in relation to scabbard orientation.

If any one ever finds anything concrete as a source about these figurals please email, even if its in 5 years time. I will always be intrested.

It would have been intresting to have had a piece where each person put there childhood religious belief system next to there repleys.{whether they accepted it or later rebeled.}

If I ever find out anything more concrete I will repost it, my research has only just begun.

Glad you all injoyed the band wagon! That so many clearly felt the need to join. Always intresting studying that effect.

Many thanks for the emails & offers.

But it is a keeper.

Spiral

[Andrew]

This is my final request: stop the bickering and move on, please.

[David]

If I ever find out anything more concrete I will repost it, my research has only just begun.

I would be interested if you could point out one single piece of
concrete evidence that you presented in this discussion that supports your case for your dagger. You seem to expect more from us then you do from yourself.
I believe it would also be helpful for this conversation if you could accurately define what you actually mean when you use the word "satanic". :)

[spiral]

I would be interested if you could point out one single piece of
concrete evidence that you presented in this discussion that supports your case for your dagger. You seem to expect more from us then you do from yourself.
:)

Expect more from you than myself? Surely not sir, you are mistaken. I am a hard taskmaster to myself as well.

Well the empirical evidence shown by me & confirmed by pictures supplied throughout this thread by the naysayers {despite thier earlier statements.} is that the cathedral on the featured dagger has been inverted, eg. turned on its head.

My point was made by my examples, but prooved more conclusivly by 4 other other examples the antis could find of a cast figurative handle of a 19th century European dagger added to the 3 examples i had shown early in the thread.

This dagger is what it is, opinion whether mine or yours will never alter that.

If ever I find evidence or expert eg.expierienced opinion that supports or dismisses my statement that the upside down, cathedral, cross & alter sticks shows satanic or anti Christian derivation when combined with ugly bishps below the feet of a dagger armed women taking hold of a goat standing between her legs. I will share it.

For me that would not be a problem.

Anyone else is welcome to do the same in years to come.


Spiral

[David]

I believe it would also be helpful for this conversation if you could accurately define what you actually mean when you use the word "satanic". :)

I still believe it would be helpful to our understanding of your position if you were able to answer the above question so that we can avoid any semantical inaccuracies. Obviously you haven't really given the question all that much thought.
Yes, this dagger IS what it IS, regardless of opinions on EITHER side of the river. :)
What you have shown is not "empirical evidence", it is merely opinionated theory. Though valuable it is not the same thing.
You have been presented with a great deal of evidence that reversed crosses do not necessarily imply satanism or even anti-church sentiment (cross of St. Peter?). I have never heard of nor have you provided ANY record where an upside down CHURCH is used as a sign of satanism.Skull and cross bones, owls, greenmen, ALL have very different and non'satanic meanings in 19th, 18th, 17th century Europe. EVERY element of your dagger though, fits VERY neatly into the story of the Hunchback of Notre Dame. This is not empirical evidence, merely observation and reason. Yet still it is well researched and valuable. However, you continue to respond to the combined researches of certain forum membership here with condescension, distain and disrespect. You continue to dismiss any thought that does not fit neatly into you own preconcieved ideas of what your dagger is. If we disagree with you we are merely a bunch of uninformed idiots blowing a lot of hot air. Therefore i don't see why we should continue with this thread as nothing we come up with short of agreement that yours is a true and bonfide "satanic dagger" will suffice. I therefore suggest we lock this thread and move on before someone says what they really feel. ;)
Let's move on, there is nothing to see here. :)

[Jim McDougall]

I recall years ago researching a tulwar that had been labeled a Sikh weapon, and I had been inquiring numerous sources to find exactly what indicators or markings would define a weapon as Sikh. I eventually contacted the author of a book on the Sikh Faith with the history of their warriors. When I inquired and asked that question the author replied, "if a weapon was used by a Sikh, then it is Sikh", and suggested that they used many weapons, not necessarily marked or of specific form.

With that I realized a key factor in studying weapons in general, that often what identifies a weapon historically with any group may not be distinguishable by its appearance or origin.

Perhaps what is sinister here is not the dagger itself ;)

[spiral]

I therefore suggest we lock this thread and move on before someone says what they really feel. ;)
:)

I have consistently said what I feel throughout this thread. :D Cant you see that?

Thankyou for confirming that your approach towards both this dagger & I throughout this thread were false.

I wonder what you are realy so hurt ,defensive & upset about?

Pity you didnt feel able to share it. But then I suppose it wasnt suitable for public consumption.

But your agenda was visible in the background throughout the thread.

Thankyou for finaly acknowledging you were wearing a mask.

Spiral

[spiral]

Perhaps what is sinister here is not the dagger itself ;)


An incorrect rude & ignorant comment, truly reavealing of you & your deeper nature Jim. :eek:

Its fascinating to see people look into a mirror & then object to what they see.

Its worth looking into & working on. ;)


Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Spiral, I had hoped you would see the 'humor' and was trying to enlist your 'style' :) recalling your earlier comment "the devil made me do it" .

[spiral]

I did Jim. ;)

It cracked me up. :D

& replied in kind. ;)

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

OK Spiral, touche'!!! :)
Now can we get this thing back on track? :D

[Andrew]

This one is done.

Feel free to start another thread if anyone cares to continue discussing the subject knife.