Rare Dayak Daggers - Sadop and Dohong

[VVV]

I can't find that these Dayak daggers has been discussed on the forum before?
On the Sadop there isn't much information in the litterature.

The Dohong is a ritual dagger that's mostly used in funeral ceremonies.
There are a lot of rumours about it, both because it's quite rare and because it has been mostly for ceremonial pusaka "magic" use as long as outsiders has visited the inner Dayak tribes.

I have gathered what I have found about them at this page and hope that maybe someone could share some additional info and comments?

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules.php?set_albumName=albur60&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

Michael

[VANDOO]

VERY INTERESTING AND BEAUTIFUL DAGGERS :D
THE SHAPE, CARVING AND DESIGNS ARE VERY DIFFERENT FROM THOSE USUALLY ASSOCIATED WITH DAYAK TRIBES IN BORNEO. THE MASK BEING THE CLOSEST TO A TYPICAL DAYAK STYLE. THE ONE WITH A TRIANGULAR BLADE AND USE AT FUNERALS ALSO MAKES ONE WONDER IF THERE IS SOMEHOW AN ASSOCIATION WITH THE PHURBA. I WOULD AGREE THAT THE MANDAU AND ITS COUSINS WERE THE ORIGINAL FORMS OF TOOL/WEAPONS BEFORE THIS TYPE OF DAGGER WAS BROUGHT IN FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE. PERHAPS THE FORM WAS DEVELOPED FROM SOME RELIGOUS VISITORS AND THE FORM, USES AND BELIEFS INCORPORATED INTO THE TRIBAL SYSTEM.
ITS ALWAYS COOL TO SEE SOMETHING NEW :cool: THANKS FOR SHAREING

[VVV]

Thanks Vandoo,

Interesting observation.
From what I understand there is a relationship with the Phurba in that the Dohong was used more for shamanistic rituals than as a tool.
I am not sure of the use of the Sadop?
Unfortunately I never saw either of them in use when I was in East Kalimantan 17 years ago. Even if I at one village was lucky to time the first night of a shamanistic rite when I and my guide slept over in a longhouse.
Probably because they are limited to tribes further south?

On the Mandau I am not that confident that they were the original weapons of the Dayak tribes.
Most probably spears and daggers were used before the Mandau?
In the really old myths, like the ones I have quoted from Schärer, spears and daggers are mentioned. But not the Mandau or any other kind of swords.

Michael


VERY INTERESTING AND BEAUTIFUL DAGGERS :D
THE SHAPE, CARVING AND DESIGNS ARE VERY DIFFERENT FROM THOSE USUALLY ASSOCIATED WITH DAYAK TRIBES IN BORNEO. THE MASK BEING THE CLOSEST TO A TYPICAL DAYAK STYLE. THE ONE WITH A TRIANGULAR BLADE AND USE AT FUNERALS ALSO MAKES ONE WONDER IF THERE IS SOMEHOW AN ASSOCIATION WITH THE PHURBA. I WOULD AGREE THAT THE MANDAU AND ITS COUSINS WERE THE ORIGINAL FORMS OF TOOL/WEAPONS BEFORE THIS TYPE OF DAGGER WAS BROUGHT IN FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE. PERHAPS THE FORM WAS DEVELOPED FROM SOME RELIGOUS VISITORS AND THE FORM, USES AND BELIEFS INCORPORATED INTO THE TRIBAL SYSTEM.
ITS ALWAYS COOL TO SEE SOMETHING NEW :cool: THANKS FOR SHAREING

[VANDOO]

I AGREE THAT THE DAYAKS PROBABLY USED WOOD, BONE AND STONE TOOLS AND WEAPONS IN THE EARLY TIMES. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF THERE ARE ANY ARTEFACTS FROM THAT TIME SURVIVING IN THE ARCHEOLOGICAL COLLECTIONS. THE BLOWGUN WAS PROBALY IN USE FROM EARLY TIMES ALSO THE OLD DAYAK SHIELDS I HAVE SEEN ARE LIGHT AND MANEUVERABLE AND WOULD BE GOOD FOR BLOCKING BLOWGUN DARTS BUT I WOULD THINK COULD BE EASILY SPLIT WITH A MANDAU OR SPEAR. I HAVE WONDERED WHAT PART THEY ACTUALLY PLAYED IN WARFARE OR IF THEY WERE LEFT AT HOME AND PLAYED A MORE CEREMONIAL ROLE AND WERE DECORATED TO SHOW A WARRIORS STORY AND PROWNESS?

THE MANDAU PROBABLY ARRIVED IN THE FORM OF A LARGE JUNGLE KNIFE FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE AND BECAME A HOT TRADE ITEM AS KNIVES AND AXES HAVE ALWAYS DONE IN ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD THRU OUT HISTORY. YOU WOULD BE TOP DOG IN THE TRIBE IF YOU HAD THE FIRST STEEL BLADED TOOL/WEAPON AND EVERYONE WOULD WANT ONE. THE TRIBAL DECORATIONS, TRADITIONS AND BELIEFS WOULD HAVE DEVELOPED OVER TIME. FOR SOME REASON I SUSPECT THE TWO DAGGERS YOU POSTED ARRIVED LATER THAN THE LARGER JUNGLE CHOPPING PREDECESSOR OF THE MANDAU AND ITS KIN. I THINK THE PISO PODANG ALSO ARRIVED IN BORNEO LATER. THE LATOK I HAVE NO GUESSES :confused:

[VVV]

On the shields their purpose was for the opponents Mandau to get stuck in the wood.

Borneo has had documented contact with India as well as China for at least 1.500 years. They also of course had contact with f.i. Java so Keris and daggers has been around for quite some time.
In the 15th-16th C the Portugese arrived as the first Europeans to Brunei. That's the reason it's called Borneo (Burunei became Bruneo that became Borneo).
The, probably Portugese inspired, NW Borneo war sword Pedang (resembles the Batak Piso Podang) has probably been used for several centuries. First with imported Portugese blades and later locally produced in Brunei.

The oldest Borneo swords I have seen IRL are for some reason both Parang Pedang.
Ben has one and I have one, both estimated to the end of 18th C. Btw Parang Pedang is not the same sword as the Pedang.

According to Shelford f.i. the Jimpul was first used in the late 19th C by the Iban. Their original sword was the Niabor and the Langgai Tinggang.

Maybe Ben can share some additional info on when different swords showed up on Borneo?

Michael

[Dajak]

There are some drawings that show s Dajaks with blowgun and parang-ilang but never see one with Dohun or daggers that is in my opinion not so old on Borneo as the sword the dajaks Used
The daggers have Arabic moslim influence .

the name Maleiers was used by the dutch people for moslim people Arabic boeginezen (that is why we see a lot off krissen from them on Borneo) and Dayaks that became moslim that they see on Borneo in the first part off the 16 cnt
Maleiers where at the cost in mid 13 century not deep inside off Borneo in this time Broenei came in historie
and second some at Djohor te soekadama hindoe javanees people setteld on the Kapoeas (that is to explain why javanees influence swords has been found by Nieuwenhuis

The Dutch Compagnie people had their first contract between The Netherlands and the Sultan off Sambas in 1609.

So Sadap is in my opinnion no dayak weapon but an borneo weapon

There is an mandau form that never been on the forum I have to ask the ex owner if I may show the pics off this one

Other wise I picture the drawing

Ben

[VVV]

So Sadap is in my opinnion no dayak weapon but an borneo weapon

There is an mandau form that never been on the forum I have to ask the ex owner if I may show the pics off this one


On the Sadop the reason I have classified it as a Dayak weapon is because of Juynboll. In the Leiden catalogues, when they are attributed to a group, they all are attributed to different Dayak tribes.
I do agree however, as I have written in the description text, that they resemble an Arabic Jambiah, but straight instead of curved.
But I haven't seen any triangular dagger like that anywhere else in the Malay archipelago?
I also noticed just now that f.i. Sadop 761/69 is decribed as a Dayak women's dagger.
Maybe that's why you don't see them on the old pictures of Dayak warriors?
The same is true for the Dohong, you only see the blades mounted on spears.
Both daggers however are found on old drawings of Dayak weapons. Like on illustration 3219/76 at Tropen.
If both of them are ritual daggers probably there wouldn't be any pictures of them in use?
I have f.i. never seen a picture of a Keris Sajen or Majapahit in actual use?

I hope that the Mandau you are referring to is what I guess it is. :)

Michael

[Dajak]

Triangel dagger we find as spear point in Indonesia the dohun is in the junboll off leiden not classified as an weapon

and about that mandau you are right you have the pic about the drawing
I don t now if I did show you the pics about it.

That is in the book De Bewooners der Vreemde Werelddeelen door
Dr H. Blink

kris madjapahit like the one I have was found under an stupa off the burubodur it has been placed there in the early 900 or 1000 so must be older than the majapahit time
This was used as an amulet and not an ritual weapon


regards Ben

[VVV]

Triangel dagger we find as spear point in Indonesia the dohun is in the junboll off leiden not classified as an weapon ....
kris madjapahit ... was used as an amulet and not an ritual weapon


It's correct that the Dohong is not listed as a weapon in Juynboll.
But the Sadop is.
I haven't seen any Javanese, or Sumatran, spear heads shaped as a Sadop blade (compact triangular with straight edges)?
And there is no Metuk on the Sadop [Thanks Alan M for teaching me this important spear detail ;)]?

On the Keris Majapahit there is a lot of discussion on its original use before it was used as an amulet only.
Maybe we should save that for another thread in the Keris forum?

Just in case I will also mail a collector friend to get his approval to show pictures of the rare Mandau you are referring to. His is the only one I have handled myself.

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael the sadap they discribe in junboll has an different handle than yours take a look also in zonnevelds book page 117

I will see if my friend still have his spear

And yes I like to see his mandau

It is always a problem to classify weapons but dayak weapons are just a few
The other ones was taken from the country they came and mixed up with dayak weapons but short daggars where never used by the Iban because
they have no use for it is is an maleier weapon not an dayak weapon
made and used in kalimantan

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

I haven't claimed those daggers as attributed to the Iban tribe?

Here is the rare mandau I think you wanted to discuss - the Bayu.
I received these pictures from Karsten Sejr Jensen together with his description intended for this forum of his Bayu (directly translated from Danish to English by me):

The blade is 40 cm and the complete mandau is 59,5 cm.
It originates from Central Borneo (the Kajan/Kenyah tribes).
The handle shows Hiraang Lejau Midaang, a deity from Apua Lagaan, that sends the rice spirits back to Earth so they can unite with the growing rice (attending the rice festivals in the form of a Hudoc mask).
The belt buckle is a temple lobe from a skull.

Kind regards,

Karsten

[Battara]

Freaky! :eek: Never seen a mandau blade like before, thank you for posting and clearing up the origin of the other daggers.

[Dajak]

Hi Michael this is an very nice mandau the blade is rare but Handle on these
are mostly different like this one,
but it is an very nice rare hard to get blade.

[Battara]

And more with the :eek:

[VVV]

Ben,

Thanks for sharing an additional example of this rare parang.
I agree that the handle of your example looks closer to the illustration in Blink.
It's a pity that the pictures in the Shelford article are so poor.

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael this one is from the time they have no pics That s why you see no picture off it .
But the mandau from your friend is great I only wanna say that the handle is maybe replaced or the weapon was later than the example from blink.
Having an mandau like this is very rare and your friend have something real special .
the pics in shelford very difficult to see but the classification is nice .
Don t forget the pakayun the type we both have that is in it that is also important for dating after 1900 the fork handle was in use (or the one we have was only for special people) .
I will have something special in an few weeks I will post it here
never see anything like it .

[Mytribalworld]

Hi Michael this one is from the time they have no pics That s why you see no picture off it .
But the mandau from your friend is great I only wanna say that the handle is maybe replaced or the weapon was later than the example from blink.
Having an mandau like this is very rare and your friend have something real special .
the pics in shelford very difficult to see but the classification is nice .
Don t forget the pakayun the type we both have that is in it that is also important for dating after 1900 the fork handle was in use (or the one we have was only for special people) .
I will have something special in an few weeks I will post it here
never see anything like it .

Hi Mikael,

does the blade fits good in the scabbard? its seems to me like a double edged blade but the scabbard look like a single edged. :confused:

[VVV]

Hi Arjan,

Welcome to the forum.
It's not my blade but I know that it fits the scabbard from visiting Karsten. It hangs on his Borneo wall in its scabbard.
But I agree that the scabbard looks like a regular mandau scabbard.

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Arjan can you look up for the Item numbers what date they came into the museum



Ben

[David]

Wow!!! Michael and Ben, excellent blades. I just want to thank both you guys for your continued efforts to shed light on the Dayak world. I only have one Dayak weapon but find these blades very interesting. Keep up the great work. :)

[Mytribalworld]

Hi Arjan can you look up for the Item numbers what date they came into the museum



Ben

Hi Ben,

will do in the next weeks I will visit the archives of leiden and will look for that.
between my articles I found this about a bayu wich was collected by Bier during the expedition with Nieuwenhuis.
the article if from Stingl " Schwerter aus Zentral Kalimantan.
jahrbuch des museums fur volkerkunde Leipzig 1969
its a very good study, also because Nieuwenhuis/Bier was almost the only one who gave good descriptions when they collected and mentioned ,place,name of the tribe etc.
sadly the pics are quite bad.

Arjan.

[VVV]

Thanks for posting another example of this rare sword.
I noticed that the scabbard of the Bier Bayu resembles the one of Karsten's (looks more like a regular mandau scabbard than having the profile of the Bayu blade).
Also the hilt looks more like a regular mandau hilt than the variation of Ben's example and the one in Blink (illustration below as a reference).
In the Leiden catalogues two Dayak tribes are referred to; "Kajahan" (Kayan?) for the one with regular mandau antler hilt and "Bejadju" for the one with a wooden hilt. The picture of the one with wooden hilt is unfortunately not that good so I am insecure if it's related to the Blink version?
In Shelford's article the Bayu is classified as a Sea-Dayak sword but I doubt that this is the case?However he describes his example as having a regular mandau hilt.
Do you think that the hilt form variations are tribal or maybe they are age indicators?
Or maybe all Bayu are Kayan and the note in the catalogue is wrong?

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael I think hilts are age indicators and that all Bayu are Kayan and the note in the catalogue is MAYBE wrong . (not for sure)

Look at these pis you see latok with this handle or mandau

Latok handle look like the mandua I put pic on could be same tribe so it is in my opinnion an not an seadayak one.( also blade not curved al sea dayak ones have it )

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

I see some similarities in style but still think there are more differences in the handle. Interesting comparison however.
On Shelfords mentioning of Bayu as a Seadayak sword I took a closer look at the reference picture. It's not a "proper" Bayu in his article but something closer to the blade of the parang we posted on the recent Sumatra Borneo thread. But with a mandau hilt and a long back edge.

Michael

[Mytribalworld]

Thanks for posting another example of this rare sword.
I noticed that the scabbard of the Bier Bayu resembles the one of Karsten's (looks more like a regular mandau scabbard than having the profile of the Bayu blade).
Also the hilt looks more like a regular mandau hilt than the variation of Ben's example and the one in Blink (illustration below as a reference).
In the Leiden catalogues two Dayak tribes are referred to; "Kajahan" (Kayan?) for the one with regular mandau antler hilt and "Bejadju" for the one with a wooden hilt. The picture of the one with wooden hilt is unfortunately not that good so I am insecure if it's related to the Blink version?
In Shelford's article the Bayu is classified as a Sea-Dayak sword but I doubt that this is the case?However he describes his example as having a regular mandau hilt.
Do you think that the hilt form variations are tribal or maybe they are age indicators?
Or maybe all Bayu are Kayan and the note in the catalogue is wrong?

Michael
Hi Michael,

Bier gives as tribe with this bayu the "Kantuk" tribe from upriver Kapuas.
It must be a tribe related to the kajan as you see on the style of the hilt.

what I think is that the bayu was in use by different tribes all over Borneo.
seen to the very different handles ( I also found two examples in the collection of the Leiden Museum wich had totally different styles)
one was mentioned as "South Borneo".

Arjan

[Dajak]

Hi Arjan what is the time they bring the weapons in


Ben

[Mytribalworld]

Hi Ben,

one ( 16-284 ) is a very early collected piece came in to the museum around 1860 but was from the journey of Salomon Muller who visited Borneo in 1836.
Salomon visited the south of Borneo the aria upriver Barito from Banjarmassin.
In his book there's one time that he mentioned " we bought some chickens and other food,some mats,weaponery and jewellery" in the village Lontontoer.So its possible that he obtained this Bayu there.

the other (781-04) I'm not for sure but the number is from just before 1900.
the handle looks almost chinese and the scabbard has a " never used patina".

Arjan.

[Albert]

Some additional information that may be helpful: 781-104 (781-04 does not exist) is, according to Juynboll, called a pisau poelang banaga (sword with a hilt with a naga). It has been collected in South-East Borneo by Mr. W.E.M.S. Aernout and has come into the collection of the museum in 1890, from his legacy.

Albert

[VVV]

Thanks Albert and Arjan,

Why isn't 781-104 among the other Bayu in Juynboll but placed among the transition swords to Mandau? Doesn't the blade follow the regular Bayu shape?

There is one additional Bayu in the picture archive as well as Juynboll, 659-87. It's unfortunately hard to see the details of its wooden hilt (it's the one classified as Bejadju).
Also, in my version, the German one (I assume you have the Dutch version?), on page 238 (the last sword before Latok starts), there is referred to "E.C.V. 90" instead of a regular catalogue number.
Do you kow what that means and how to find the picture of this 4th Bayu?

Michael

[Dajak]

HI Albert and don t forget there is a lot off missing off the collection in Leiden
i heard from someone that has been there for his study that a lot off objects might been stolen or disappear .



THERE WAS AN INVESTIGATION BUT THEY STOPPED THIS BECAUSE TO MUCH MISSING .


Ben

[tom hyle]

These spearpoint (bayu?) madaus do not (except for the one in hte b&w pic) seem to be truly double edged, but to have a false edge bevelled more for thrusting than for cutting?
The wide triangular dagger bears an interesting resemblance to modern Moro gunongs/punals, as does the narrow dagger to tombaks and tombak daggers.

[Dajak]

Hi Tom these mandau s are no spearpoints and they are double edged
some have one side hollow flat other side same hollow flat like the normal
parang ihlang . they are very sharp both sides.

Ben

[tom hyle]

You misunderstand me. THe term spearpoint is used by N American cutlers (etc.) to designate a blade with a symetrically centralized point.

[asomotif]

A friend has this spear in his collection (well actually in a corner of his cellar, but he is sadly not considering to let it go :( )

take a look at the dohong in Zonneveld's, the decoration at the base, the way the sides are sharpened only from one side of the blade.
This blade seems very much a spearhead to me, but the dohong in Zonneveld is now a puzzle to me. is it a dagger or a spearhead hilted as a dagger :confused:

[VVV]

Hi Willem,

I also believe that some of the Dohong are remounted spearheads.
And then there seems to be another version which is more like a sword blade
(maybe ancestor of the Bayu?).
Probably Dohong is several, actually different, versions of old (pre 20th C) double-edged Dayak blades grouped together as one classification?

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael and Willem this is not an Dohun Michael you see also an very big
spearhead in Kopenhagen the Dayaks have very big spear heads but don t make them dohun s


Ben

[Dajak]

Here some pics

Ben

[VVV]

Hi Michael and Willem this is not an Dohun Michael you see also an very big
spearhead in Kopenhagen the Dayaks have very big spear heads but don t make them dohun s


Ben

Hi Ben,

No I don't think that Willem's example is a Dohong.
But I suspect that some of the Dohongs were made of old spear heads.
Like f.i. the version below that are both found as spear heads and mounted as a Dohong.
Or maybe it's the Dohong blades that are mounted as spears as well?

Michael

[Albert]

Hello Michael,

Interesting photo!
From which publication is it?

Albert

[Dajak]

Hi Michael I think you are right when you say that dohuns are made from spearheads .

They where only used at funurals as ceremonium knife s
never as weapons and we see a lot off spearheads in the Indonesian archipalo mounted as knife s .


Ben

[VVV]

Albert,

It's just one of the pictures I found on the Internet. I saved it because it's the only picture I have seen with that kind of early 19th C spearhead otherwise only seen on old drawings.
Please join the discussion and let us know your view on the Dohong?

Ben,

Please note that I don't think all(!) Dohong were made from spearheads.
I suspect that there are several variations where some are remounted spearheads. I don't think that f.i. the larger and more swordlike version, that usually has big ivory handles, originally were spearheads.

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael I am talking about the one in the picture this one is also pictured in Hornbill and dragon from Bernard sellato .
and the dohun you mean with the Ivory handle could be from an spearhead
I see a few but never so big like an bayu or mandau .
That could be why they use them for ceromonies and not for fighting because never intended to be an sword .
And you now how big and very old spearhead could be I never see an dohun
so big as that spearhead from the one in Kopenhagen.



Ben

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

I have to handle more Dohong first to be sure of this.
Like you have done because most of them are found in Dutch museums.

I have just added two additional, quite rare, Dayak knives to my collection site. It's the Piso Tongkeng of West Kalimantan and the Iban Lungat.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules.php?set_albumName=albur60&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael nice to see those rare knife s

here an picture off an big pisau rau



Ben

[VVV]

Interesting variation Ben!

I have to find a large one like that myself ;)

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael look how he is holding the little Knife

Ben

[VVV]

Interesting!

Thanks for the reference picture.

Michael

[Dajak]

About the dohun here on an soul boat pictured in Hornbill and dragon we see
that they are spears not intended too be swords


Ben

[VVV]

Seems to be the tree of life with a Dohun at the top.
Just like described in the Schärer book:

"The trunk of the Tree of Life consists of the sacred spear, its roots ends in spearpoints, and it is flanked by daggers."

Michael

[asomotif]

There was an interesting discussion on the swap forum on dohongs.

at a certain moment there was a claim that dohongs were pure ritual weapons, as there are no pictures of dayak fighting with dohongs.
But also other claims have been made :

quote-
The Dohong was most likely the traditional sword/knife before the mandau.
So most Dohongs are from before 1850 and there are not many in museum collections.-unquote

But previous in this same thread nov 9th 2006 :

quote-
[I]There are some drawings that show s Dajaks with blowgun and parang-ilang but never see one with Dohun or daggers that is in my opinion not so old on Borneo as the sword the dajaks Used
The daggers have Arabic moslim influence .[I]-unquote

so we have the opinion that the dohongs were there before the mandaus...
And than the opinion that the dohongs are not as old as dajak swords...
(strange enough by the same person)

I am hardly an expert and mostly atracted by form of waepons.
But what could / would be the thruth on dohongs / sadaps ?

Does anybody have pictures/drawings of these waepons being used at all ?

[Dajak]

Hi Willem as you can read it shows that dohung is not an weapon al this can be found in the books and that dohungs have only being used before 1850
is not true.

I have an pedang that was taken to England in 1820 , many weapons was taken to europe in that time so if they did fight a lot with dohungs there was
also taken dohungs from the battlefield never read about that.

There is no evidence for it .

That there is some arabic influence in Borneo is true read history books .

Ben

[Bill M]

Seems to be the tree of life with a Dohun at the top.

Michael

Kether?

[Mytribalworld]

Hi Willem as you can read it shows that dohung is not an weapon al this can be found in the books and that dohungs have only being used before 1850
is not true.

I have an pedang that was taken to England in 1820 , many weapons was taken to europe in that time so if they did fight a lot with dohungs there was
also taken dohungs from the battlefield never read about that.

There is no evidence for it .

That there is some arabic influence in Borneo is true read history books .

Ben

Hi Ben,

If you should have read the book that you bougth from me ( Schwaner ) you could clearly see on page 80 of the second part,that Schwaner give an excelent explanation about the use and History of the Dohong.
Schwaner was ther between 1843-1847.

here the translation of the text:

" The shield and mandau are imported on a later date but now very common.
In history the place of the mandau was taken by the Dohong and parang.
the Dohong must have been an ancesteral weapon.
It was a broad sword about one foot length, in the shape of a lance point and had a 8 inch long ,thick and round hilt, turned from ivory-so no doubt a outland creation-. from the dohong there are only a few examples left,which are kept as heirlooms from there ancestors.
nowadays they are only used to spread the blood of there victims on their bodies and to cut of the navel-string of the newborn kids."

So its quite clear we have here a very early evidence for the use of the dohong as well as a weapon in very early pre-mandau times, and after that being used indeed as a ritual dagger because of the heirloom status of the dagger.

There are also Dohongs in the collection of Bronbeek, a collection mainly built up by stuff from the battlefield.

About the arabic influence, I don't think that the arabs did their had their influence on the Dohong but the Malay.
The turned wooden hilt final is an detail that is used in many Malay objects and also daggers, see " Spirit of wood,the art of malay woodcarving".
Also I think that seen the large migrations in Borneo about 200 years ago, where the Kajans and Ibans where pushing from the north its good possible that the dagger (or the design) has been taken with tribes who did first live in the north put where pused to move to the south.The Dohong is mainly found among the Ngadjoe and Ot danum.
The ivory hilts could also be imorted by traders from Banjarmassin.

Finally, the use of the turned hilt final is a Budistic stupa symbol.

sources: Schwaner -beschrijving van het stroomgebied van den Barito
by C.A.L.M.Schwaner 1853

farisch A.Noor and Eddin Khoo Spirit of Wood

[Dajak]

Look at this part from the Museum leiden the Junboll


It says it was taken over from an other culture written by Sal Müller

and in my opinion it was in use by some local dayaks but not all .


the Malay did bring the arabic infulence in Borneo just read the books

Schwaner was in one erea in Borneo when he wrote this and he might be writing over the bayu instead over the dohung he did not pictured it so we don t now .



mandaukudi
Member


Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 49

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ben,

one ( 16-284 ) is a very early collected piece came in to the museum around 1860 but was from the journey of Salomon Muller who visited Borneo in 1836.
Salomon visited the south of Borneo the aria upriver Barito from Banjarmassin.
In his book there's one time that he mentioned " we bought some chickens and other food,some mats,weaponery and jewellery" in the village Lontontoer.So its possible that he obtained this Bayu there.

the other (781-04) I'm not for sure but the number is from just before 1900.
the handle looks almost chinese and the scabbard has a " never used patina".

Arjan.

Arjan read what Sal Müller say s about this in Jhunboll

You can t beat the facts Arjan

Ben

[Mytribalworld]

Look at this part from the Museum leiden the Junboll


It says it was taken over from an other culture written by Sal Müller

and in my opinion it was in use by some local dayaks but not all .


the Malay did bring the arabic infulence in Borneo just read the books

Schwaner was in one erea in Borneo when he wrote this and he might be writing over the bayu instead over the dohung he did not pictured it so we don t now .



mandaukudi
Member


Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 49

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ben,

one ( 16-284 ) is a very early collected piece came in to the museum around 1860 but was from the journey of Salomon Muller who visited Borneo in 1836.
Salomon visited the south of Borneo the aria upriver Barito from Banjarmassin.
In his book there's one time that he mentioned " we bought some chickens and other food,some mats,weaponery and jewellery" in the village Lontontoer.So its possible that he obtained this Bayu there.

the other (781-04) I'm not for sure but the number is from just before 1900.
the handle looks almost chinese and the scabbard has a " never used patina".

Arjan.

Arjan read what Sal Müller say s about this in Jhunboll

You can t beat the facts Arjan

Ben


dear Ben,

at first:

You wrote your answer between the lines I have written in my answer so it looks almost if I have written it, maybe you can edit that?

second: reading before you answer should provide a long and unessesary discussion.

thirth: Indeed Salomon Muller says in Juynboll that the Dohong is probably taken over from another culture because he says that it maybe is from the times that "Modjapit rules about the coasts of Borneo"
good possible because the blade of the Dohong looks like very old Modjapit daggers.So not Arababs did have their influence on the Dohong but the Hindu.
( however the Arabs did trade in this area)

fourth: (reading before you write) was Schwaner talking about a Bayu when he used the word "Dohong" and talked about a 8 inch turned ivory round and thick hilt? Of course not! You can't beat the facts Ben! ;)

five:I still stay with my opinion that the hilt is of malay origin, the hilts of the 18th and 19th Pattani parangs and Anak Wali's are almost of the same shape.
As Borneo is a mix of diverse tribal influences also its of course possible that the dohong is also a mix creation of Hindu influence with Malay details.

six: please stay reading as professional as your way of collecting,you are a marvelous collector! The treads in this forum are to help eachother with ideas,knowledge and study.But only by staying professional readers we can lift this forum to the high unique level it deserves!

best regards,

Arjan.

[Dajak]

Arjan trans late the page off schwaner in English


I said might be Arjan read please

here start it

mandaukudi
Member


Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 49

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ben,

one ( 16-284 ) is a very early collected piece came in to the museum around 1860 but was from the journey of Salomon Muller who visited Borneo in 1836.
Salomon visited the south of Borneo the aria upriver Barito from Banjarmassin.
In his book there's one time that he mentioned " we bought some chickens and other food,some mats,weaponery and jewellery" in the village Lontontoer.So its possible that he obtained this Bayu there.

the other (781-04) I'm not for sure but the number is from just before 1900.
the handle looks almost chinese and the scabbard has a " never used patina".

Arjan.

here it s end

looks like you talk 2 things Arjan


ben

[Mytribalworld]

Arjan trans late the page off schwaner in English


I said might be Arjan read please

here start it

mandaukudi
Member


Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 49

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ben,

one ( 16-284 ) is a very early collected piece came in to the museum around 1860 but was from the journey of Salomon Muller who visited Borneo in 1836.
Salomon visited the south of Borneo the aria upriver Barito from Banjarmassin.
In his book there's one time that he mentioned " we bought some chickens and other food,some mats,weaponery and jewellery" in the village Lontontoer.So its possible that he obtained this Bayu there.

the other (781-04) I'm not for sure but the number is from just before 1900.
the handle looks almost chinese and the scabbard has a " never used patina".

Arjan.

here it s end

looks like you talk 2 things Arjan


ben


Hi Ben,

are you not exchancing Muller and Schwaner with eachother?

or do you think that I exclude the bayu from beiing used as weapon?

however the exact text in Schwaner says: The Dohong must be ,according to what they say have been the ancesteral weapon.

included a pic of item no 16-284 taken by myself in de depot, from the very nice bayu collected by Muller.

arjan.

[Dajak]

YOUR TRANSLATION IS NOT RIGHT ABOUT WHAT SCHWANER SAYS

That is what I mean the whole time read it like it is .

Muller has taken some weapons and is writing about that the dohung is not an dayak weapon tells you in Juynboll that these are story s .

What weapon did Schwaner take to the museum for weapons ?

Schwaner talks about the parang as an Weapon that was before the mandau this is could be true . but dohung is no proof.

sometimes people wanna believe something and has nothing to do if one is an
outstanding collector or not who make rules if one is an good or bad collector.

Translation is

that in that ....part of borneo .....the shield and mandau came in later (that part and not counting for whole Borneo) but now in that time common the dohung must be after what they tell him a weapon from there ancestors (but they don t now for sure)
also tells that the dohung is from an other culture .

If we believe Stone the pandat is the weapon off the seadayaks IBANS
is this true because he says it . proof did bring us that it must be an land dayak weapon

Ben

[Mytribalworld]

YOUR TRANSLATION IS NOT RIGHT ABOUT WHAT SCHWANER SAYS

That is what I mean the whole time read it like it is .

Muller has taken some weapons and is writing about that the dohung is not an dayak weapon tells you in Juynboll that these are story s .

What weapon did Schwaner take to the museum for weapons ?

Schwaner talks about the parang as an Weapon that was before the mandau this is could be true . but dohung is no proof.

sometimes people wanna believe something and has nothing to do if one is an
outstanding collector or not who make rules if one is an good or bad collector.

Translation is

that in that ....part of borneo .....the shield and mandau came in later (that part and not counting for whole Borneo) but now in that time common the dohung must be after what they tell him a weapon from there ancestors (but they don t now for sure)
also tells that the dohung is from an other culture .

If we believe Stone the pandat is the weapon off the seadayaks IBANS
is this true because he says it . proof did bring us that it must be an land dayak weapon

Ben

HI Ben,

I never told anywhere that the Pandat isn't the weapon of the Iban.
But the Iban settled later on Borneo than the Ngadjoe and Ot Danum.
I also didn't tell that the Dohung was in use by all Dayaks.
As you have read you see that wrote that the Dohung was in use among the Ngadjoe and the Ot Danum.
Of course the Dohunghilts did come from another country course they used Ivory for it and you can't find that on Borneo.
But not all Dohongs have Ivory hilts and not all Dohungs have the same shape.

Arjan.

Arjan.

[Dajak]

Arjan the pandat is not the weapon off the Iban
I only try to say that what someone put up in an books does not have to be right it could be his interpetation .

what proof do you have that the Iban setteld later on Borneo

Ben

[Mytribalworld]

Arjan the pandat is not the weapon off the Iban
I only try to say that what someone put up in an books does not have to be right it could be his interpetation .

what proof do you have that the Iban setteld later on Borneo

Ben

Hi Ben,

getting a little tired I totally agree with your words "sometimes people wanna believe something".


regards,

Arjan.