ETHIOPIAN, ANYONE?

[roanoa]

Hi guys. As you must know by now, I am interested in Ethiopian weapons. I would like to know how many of you share this interest, even marginally, and how many of you actually have Ethiopian weapons. Hope I'll get some response. Cheers, RON

[CharlesS]

I'm in Ron...even love the food too...but you already knew that. :)

[Flavio]

Me too, as you know :)

[Lew]

Count me in!

Lew

[Tim Simmons]

How could you not be? :confused:

[ariel]

I like Gurades, but not food.... Sorry.
Read the most recent Flashman's adventure" Flashman on the March": British Magdala campain.

[Michael Blalock]

I like the women moslty but the weapons are nice too.

[katana]

Rich history......and some very nice weapons......

[Nagawarrior]

Definitely find the weapons interesting. Going to have to try the food.

[Jeff D]

Count me in Ron! I don't have any in my collection though, someone out here seems to be getting them all first ;) .

Jeff

[roanoa]

Hi, guys. I'm happy to see some interest. I am sure there still are some guys out there that will join the team. I plan to share with you some of my best pieces (maybe one a week). I would be glad to shatre some food as well .... (Derho Wat is my favourite. SUPER hot!). At least one of you has mentioned the women. They are as fascinating as their swords and as spicy as their food. Cheers, RON

[roanoa]

Here is the first "gem" from my collection. A great Amhara shield of heavy leather, velvet and gilded decorations. I have showed you mine: show me yours!! Selamta. Ron

[TVV]

Marginal interest in the weapons, especially saifs and gurades. Haven't tried the food, and maybe I should.

[Lew]

Here is the first "gem" from my collection. A great Amhara shield of heavy leather, velvet and gilded decorations. I have showed you mine: show me yours!! Selamta. Ron


roanoa

Here is one of mine a sword not a shield though.

Lew

[Bill M]

The the weapons and the religious artifacts are really neat. I have some swords with good german blades. One with a hilt that may be translucent rhino horn. Menelik period.

They even claim to have the Ark of the Covenant somewhere.

I really like the prayer scrolls / talismans.

Here is an Etiopean curiosity. About 4 inches long. Some kind of silver, probably low grade.

Any guesses? If you already know for sure, please hold off posting the answer. I think it would be fun to hear some guesses.

[spiral]

Coke spoon if modern or ear cleaner if old? :D

Spiral

[roanoa]

Hi Bill. SPIRAL nailed it! Post your swords, PLEASE.

[Bill M]

Coke spoon if modern or ear cleaner if old? :D

Spiral

Aww, Spiral, You gave it away! I was hoping for some off-the-wall guesses!

[Lew]

My guess is a snuff spoon I always see the African snuff containers on ebay.



Lew

[Tim Simmons]

The weapons I have are far from noteworthy but this is. I have not had confirmation that it is Ethiopian but i think it is. I also have a rather nice painting on vellum. I wander off subject. This might be the container for the coke.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/egg003.jpg

[Bill M]

The weapons I have are far from noteworthy but this is. I have not had confirmation that it is Ethiopian but i think it is. I also have a rather nice painting on vellum. I wander off subject. This might be the container for the coke.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/egg003.jpg


Looks like a one time use lunchbox!

[Bill M]

I made a mistake in posting. I mant to REPLY and somehow got NEW THREAD. submitted it and then found out that I was wrong, but there seemed no way to put in in your thread. So here is a link.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3282

I have more Ethiopian swords and stuff and will post them here in the right thread.

[spiral]

Its a coke spoon then Bill? :D

I thought an ear wax collector was quite of the wall! ;)

Spiral :rolleyes:

[Bill M]

Its a coke spoon then Bill? :D

I thought an ear wax collector was quite of the wall! ;)

Spiral :rolleyes:

It IS an ear wax collector! Did you just guess? That is really impressive!

[spiral]

Sorry Bill just teasing, :D

You see similar tools in some kukri pouches. ;) So semi-educated guess realy.

Spiral

[roanoa]

OK, guys. Here is a selection of some European gurade grips and a couple of local imitation. The plain pommel (seen lots of these) has the Lion of Judah and the initial of Menelik on the lanquettes. The "Lion head" (lots of these also) has plain lanquette. The second "lion head" has a more elaborate design and the Lion of Judah on one of the lanquettes, the other one is plain. (Only seen two of these). The fourth one (unique) was copied/imitated in German silver by a local smith. Both lanquettes have the Lion of Judah. Last (also unique) is a gilded, locally made high quality one. Blade is a very nice Wilkinson. Both lanquettes have angels. Can any of you add to this?

[Nagawarrior]

Didn't have a chance to show the examples I have of Ethiopian weapons in my earlier post. At least I'm pretty sure the shields are right.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/Nagawarrior/Ethiopian/IMG_0943.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/Nagawarrior/Ethiopian/img_0296.jpg

[roanoa]

I can see your interest spans from Morocco to Somalia.... Nice gurade and shuields. Even nicer billao.

[Bill M]

I saw Ron's posting of the Guades and though I might post this one.

Did a little blade cleanup with 600 grit and 1500 grit sandpaper.

Sure would like to have a translation. I am sure that I will post these upside down. Have no ida about which way is corrrect, but everytime I ask for a translation, its upside down.

Does the GG and thermometer on the blade mean some sword manufacturer like Solingen?

Anyway here it is.

[roanoa]

The first word on the blade is MENELIK (Emperor of Ethiopia before Haile Selassie) and you have it upside down. Ethiopian sentences (in this case it's just a word) end with 4 dots as in the second inscription which is SAINT GEORGE (protector of Ethiopia). The writing on the ricasso is a bit of a puzzle because it says NIKOLA SUPPLIER TO THE EMPEROR and I have no idea of who this NIKOLA was. Maybe one of the many Armenian traders that supplied European goods to Ethiopia. The GG has generated a flurry of interpretations. Someone has suggested GRENAL of GLASGOW (doubt it...) or GEBRUDER GRAH (doubt it...). Jeff Demetrick and I had a discussion about this and we agree that in all likelyhood is GESETZLICH GESCHUETZT (ofter referred to as GES GESH) which I believe means REGISTERD MARK. I actually documented a sword that under the Lion of Judah has the words GES GESH. Jeff also identified the thermometer, but I have to dig out that info. Jeff: help!!

[Jeff D]

Jeff: help!!

Hi Ron,

I thought the Bat signal looked like a thermometer tonight :) .

the thermometer was used by the Solingen firm of F.W. Holler 1866-1975.

Hope this helps
Jeff.

[Bill M]

The first word on the blade is MENELIK (Emperor of Ethiopia before Haile Selassie) and you have it upside down. Ethiopian sentences (in this case it's just a word) end with 4 dots as in the second inscription which is SAINT GEORGE (protector of Ethiopia). The writing on the ricasso is a bit of a puzzle because it says NIKOLA SUPPLIER TO THE EMPEROR and I have no idea of who this NIKOLA was. Maybe one of the many Armenian traders that supplied European goods to Ethiopia. The GG has generated a flurry of interpretations. Someone has suggested GRENAL of GLASGOW (doubt it...) or GEBRUDER GRAH (doubt it...). Jeff Demetrick and I had a discussion about this and we agree that in all likelyhood is GESETZLICH GESCHUETZT (ofter referred to as GES GESH) which I believe means REGISTERD MARK. I actually documented a sword that under the Lion of Judah has the words GES GESH. Jeff also identified the thermometer, but I have to dig out that info. Jeff: help!!

I gues this would have to be Menelik the second?

Does this help date the sword to the period of the early 1900s? Or could it be later and just refer to Menelik?

Did these guades often have blades like this with the words and floral designs?

What can you tell me about the sword?

[roanoa]

It's of course Menelik II. Menelik I, according to tradition, was the son of the Queen of Sheba and King Solomon. He fled Israel (with the Ark of the Covenant), followed the Nile to Abyssinia and founded the Solomonic Dinasty.
Your sword, made by Hoeller in Germany - according to Jeff - is often referred to as "officer" model. I have some reservation about that definition. Most likely it was purchased by some Ras and given to his entourage. It was certainly carried by men of status. I have seen quite a few of these (relatively speaking) and found out the blades, identical in scritps and decorations, came in at least three different curvatures. I'll post the pictures of the 3 ASAP. In the meantime, here is a picture of an important leader wearing one and the "page" that I produced of one of mine.

[roanoa]

Hi Bill. Me again. I snapped one quick picture just to show you the different curvatures. As I said, the blades are otherwise identical. I wonder if there was a straight blade as well... The hilt was plated. Grip was wood with a black plastic covering held in place by two strands of twisted copper wire.

[Bill M]

WOW! Beautiful swords!

I hate to say that I once turned down an exquisite shotel. Ivory and gold. Still regret it, but I just did not have the money at that time! Gone now.

Well, the past does not count so much as now. What do you think of this shield? I bought it some time ago and forgot what country it came from, but it looks so much like Nagawarriors' shield that I thought I'd dig it up and post it.

[roanoa]

Bill, I have made a couple of bad mistakes myself... But the shotel ivory/gold sounds like a biggie. Any ideas of where it ended up? Any pictures? Now, the shield: 100% Abyssinian. Great shape. Love it.

[Bill M]

Bill, I have made a couple of bad mistakes myself... But the shotel ivory/gold sounds like a biggie. Any ideas of where it ended up? Any pictures? Now, the shield: 100% Abyssinian. Great shape. Love it.


Don't know where the shotel ended up :( :( but it is gone. $1200 I think was the asking price.

Thanks for the info on the shield.

I also really like Ethiopian art, prayer scrolls and jewelry. It has a vitality that most Christian art lost in the Byzantine.

Will post a modern piece about Menelik I. Kind of fun, about Queen of Sheba and Soloman. I think that it is on goat skin.

I realize that this is a weapons forum, but I think it is important to know about the culture, art, religion, political structure, history. All these give a depth of underestanding that really enriches the weapon collecting.

[derek]

Been out of town all week, so here's my belated "count me in".

The shotel on top is one of my personal favorites, the 4th from the top is a Wilkinson:

http://www.ancient-east.com/collection/abyssinian/original_group.jpg

Roano should remember this one.... :)

http://www.ancient-east.com/collection/04gurade.jpg

That shotel closer up:

http://www.ancient-east.com/collection/2004_collection/shotels3.jpg

[ariel]

Here are mine.
The first one is straight, with absolutely superb blade: rings like a bell! It has Roanoa's beloved "GG" mark and the Lion of Judah on the other side.
The curved one has a Russian blade, "Zlatoust August 1853 year"
Both have rhino (I mean it!) handles. The German one has original scabbard, the Russian one's scabbard is an old replacement.

[Bill M]

Apologies for the reflection haze in the pictures. The original panel is on goat skin. I do believe it is modern, but interesting.

As I understand it the story depicted is:

When the Queen of Sheba ruled Ethiopia, a beautiful bird from the land of Israel flew over the Queen's palace. When the bird returned to Israel, he reported to King Solmon just what he had seen--a land ruled by a magnificent Queen, filled with endless mountains and unexplored wilderness. King Solomon ordered that the bird return to Ethiopia with an invitation for the Queen to visit the Land of Israel. When the Queen arrived, she showered the King with plentiful silver and gold, amber, spices, incense, and perfumes. King Solomon fell in love with the Queen of Sheba and that night, the two made love. Before returning to Ethiopia, the King offered Sheba a ring and asked that if she were to bare him a son, that she send their son and the ring back to him. When their son, Menelik, was old enough to travel, he was escorted to his father's kingdom in Israel. After being educated in Israel, Menelik requested to return home to Ethiopia. Solomon ordered that the counselor's first born sons accompany Menelik on his travels. The sons secretly carried the Ark of the Covenant from the Temple of Solomon into Ethiopia. Menelik became the Ethiopian King and the Falasha Jews claim descent from the sons of King Solomon's counselors. As the legend continues....

First picture shows something mystical happening. I can't figure it out.

[Bill M]

Second picture shows Sheba setting out to go to Solomon

[Bill M]

Third picture Queen on Sheba welcomed by Solomon, The she settles down beside him,

[Bill M]

Fourth Picture Solomon makes an offer to Sheba, she accepts (see upper left of picture on right).

[Bill M]

Fifth Picture Solomon gives his ring to Sheba and tells her if she bear a son, send him to Solomon with that ring to recognize his son. Name the son Menelik.


I don't have the next panel, but I think this is neat!

[ariel]

Apparently, there is another story of a meeting between the two: Solomon ordered to make a mirror floor in his Royal Hall. Sheba, thinking it was a water pool, lifted her skirt and everybody saw she had hairy legs.
She was the first example of a liberated and proud feministic womyn!
Betty Friedan aside, Ethiopian women are beautiful and Old Solly had a very good taste :)

[Bill M]

Here are mine.
The first one is straight, with absolutely superb blade: rings like a bell! It has Roanoa's beloved "GG" mark and the Lion of Judah on the other side.

Ariel,

My straight blade is identical to yours. Same marks. Lion of Judah on one side and GG on the other side. Same floral design in the double fullers. Everything! Must have been made by the same guy or at least same shop.

37" overall length, right?

Well, mine has a rhino grip -- no, cow -- no, it IS rhino -- wait - wait - cow -- a rhinocow . . . . . cowrhino -- more Ouzo, please. It is a cowino grip! Ah who cares?

Mine has a different grip but shaped like yours.

Posted in the other thread.

[Bill M]

Apparently, there is another story of a meeting between the two: Solomon ordered to make a mirror floor in his Royal Hall. Sheba, thinking it was a water pool, lifted her skirt and everybody saw she had hairy legs.
She was the first example of a liberated and proud feministic womyn!
Betty Friedan aside, Ethiopian women are beautiful and Old Solly had a very good taste :)

But wouldn't he see up her skirt? Like the guys in high school with the small mirrors on their shoes? :rolleyes: ;)

[roanoa]

Bill, I myself am into Ethiopian "stuff" big time. Have a colelction of crosses, jewels, paintings. The works. Of course, my prime interest is swords and shields... The straight bladed sword in question is a fairly common pattern (in my lingo it means I have seen more than a dozen). Of course they are identical as they were manufactured in quantity. Here is mine. Grip is, as you can PLAINLY see, COW... Not rhino (sob sob), just cow. I have another one in poor shape (cow again...). C'est la vie. The cow vs. rhino debate will rage on long after we are gone. Hurts me to envision that shotel with ivory grip. I have seen only one in Rome. And a gurade that was offered to me about 10 years ago from an Italian dealer. Too much money at the time. Reasonable to-day...

[derek]

These are excellent!

Here's another straight blade that managed to get a rehilt in Yemen.

http://www.ancient-east.com/collection/2004_collection/seif1-1.jpg

http://www.ancient-east.com/collection/2004_collection/seif-1.jpg

[derek]

This is from a rehilted straight blade as well. Although the blade has lost its temper and bends easily, it is rare in that it has Haille Selassie, The empress, and Menelik II on it.

http://www.ancient-east.com/collection/2004_collection/seif-faces.jpg

[roanoa]

Hi Derek. Great to hear from you. The first sword, though virtually identical, differs from the others as: 1) it has the crown; 2) it has an inscription; and 3) has the patented mark of S. TERZIAN's Lion of Judah.
The second one is quite nice. The faces are, as you said, those of Menelik, Empress Taitu, and ???? I really don't know. I think Haile' Selassie was too young at the time. But it is a good guess. MAYBE it's his father, Ras Tafari of Harar. Great sword, regardless. Here's mine.

[Tim Simmons]

Another Solomon and Sheba painting to go with Bills, this is behind glass and the flash is on.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/EP002.jpg
I do believe there has been a considerable clamp down on the export of these late 19th early 20th century paintings.

[Lew]

Bill

As per your request.

Lew

[roanoa]

Nice Gile'. Yes, it's an AFAR/ISSA knife from the Danakil area. Judging from the style of the grip and the grooves on the blade, I would say it comes from an area close to or overlapping with Ethiopian border. Just a guess. The central portion of the grip looks like..... RHINO. Would have to take a very close look.

[Lew]

The central portion of the grip looks like..... RHINO. Would have to take a very close look.[/QUOTE]

Picture added up top.

[spiral]

Is it possible to get a photo of the end grain Louie? {on the pommel perhaps.?}

Even some cow & buffalo horn can be fiberous, the only 100% certen identification I know is a close up of the end grain. The fibre in matrix appearance is ummistakable.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/rhino.jpg

Whether translucent ,opaque, black,brown,green or orangey yellow the texture like orange skin remains the same.

Spiral

[Lew]

Spiral

The dagger is capped off with cow horn at either end so there is no way to tell.

[Tim Simmons]

My rhino horn does not have this orange peel surface. I shall try to show this latter. I know some African cattle can have horns 32" long but they are hollow.

[Lew]

Whether translucent ,opaque, black,brown,green or orangey yellow the texture like orange skin remains the same.

Spiral[/QUOTE]

Spiral

The orange peel is from a cross cut against the grain of the horn. So if you cut along the grain lengthwise yo will not see the orange peel effect.

Lew

[spiral]

Thanks Louie, I am not confident enough to offer opionion on its side grain.

But yes the orange peel is just visible on the end grain. {crosscut like firewood logs.}

I can only say Tim what I have learnt from people who spends thousands of pounds on individual antique rhino horn carvings & who are not intrested in cow or buffalo horn , fakes of which riddle the market.

I am always happy to learn more though.

Spiral

[Tim Simmons]

Sorry

[roanoa]

Hi guys. Trying to keep this thread going. There's so much stuff. So, here are three Ethiopian daggers with "fancy" scabbards. They are actually no scabbards at all... Two daggers have their original leather scabbards; one (Hi, Derek) does not. All three daggers have been inserted into the metal sheaths that originally decorated the terminal portion of SWORD scabbards. I have found another dagger like these three. So I have actually documented this practise in four cases. It is unclear, at least to me, how sword furniture was used like this. Two theories: 1) the daggers were produced in this configurations by scabbard makers who had a surplus of these sheaths; 2) they were made using broken swords picked up as throphies on a battlefield. Any other guesses?

[Tim Simmons]

Abyssinia a fascinating area. The array of poorly documented weapons. From your previous thread we saw those lovely examples from the south with a sickle knife influence, then in this thread the European influence. Where does the eastern influence begin from Somalia and the Arabian peninsular? possibly with these knives. Is the shotel solely Abyssinian? I know we have seen an ebay purchase post here by Ariel, one of those curved sabers having the tangent at the scabbard tip with an eared grip. Are there Kaskara with Abyssinian marks? not including the straight European blades. lots of questions.

[roanoa]

Hi, Tim. Yes, the diversity of weapons found in Abyssinia is amazing. Local blades, European blades, Ind-persian and Arabian blades. LOTS of Kaskara in Abyssinia, either used as such (Ethiopia shares a very long border with Sudan and there is lots of ethnical overlapping) or re-hilted to traditional Ethiopian SEIFs. The opposite is also true. I posted a Kaskara that I believe to be Eritrean and asked for help with the translation, which is in Arabic, but no luck so far (under KASKARA NEEDS TRANLATOR). I will keep on posting "stuff" for your enjoyment. Ron

[Bill M]

Ron,

Here is my shotel. Have a neat scabbard also, not in pictures.

I have read that the long curved blade was for getting around an opponent's shield. Guess that would have been a surprise! :eek: :eek:

I think that the handle is rhino horn -- no wait, it is cow horn....er..Rhino? cow! gotta be rhino. have a couple of Uzo drinks and it could have come from an authentic 1952 Studebaker Commander :D

Comments, please, i would like to know more about these interesting swords and the people who made and used them. :eek:

[roanoa]

Hi Bill. EXCELLENT example of shotel. Nice curve. Hilt: COW. Everybody says that the shotel is curved so that one could go around the enemy's shield. Personally, I believe it's one of those myths that have been perpetuated and become gospel. First: not all shotels are curved enough to do that job. Second: I have several shotels and I have tried to do that only to find out that you really lack the power to strike. So, I believe it's a nice theory and I can see how people would go for it. I, for one, do not.

[Bill M]

Hi Bill. EXCELLENT example of shotel. Nice curve. Hilt: COW. Everybody says that the shotel is curved so that one could go around the enemy's shield. Personally, I believe it's one of those myths that have been perpetuated and become gospel. First: not all shotels are curved enough to do that job. Second: I have several shotels and I have tried to do that only to find out that you really lack the power to strike. So, I believe it's a nice theory and I can see how people would go for it. I, for one, do not.


Ron,

Thanks. I have always wondered about that "going around the shield" concept. The shotel seems to be an unwieldy sword with very strange balance. Niether a thrusting nor a slashing weapon. Any ideas about how it was used?

COW is fine with me. It is solid and has a nice color and seems well put together.

[roanoa]

Hi. The shotel is truly ans Abyssinian sword. It is designed to strike with the tip and it has enough force to "stab" through a shield. I believe it is native of the Tigray region. There even was a village in Eritrea called "shotel'". I found the photo of a painting about the battle of Adwa (1896). It is a huge painting that is VERY accurate in details of weapons used by the Abyssinians and the Italians. I cropped this portion. It shows how the shotel was used!!

[roanoa]

Hi guys. Here something for you, Abyssinian swords lovers!! This is a selection of traditional design hilts using different materials. They are all in scale. A) Wood; B) Bakelite; C) Plastic; D) German silver; E) 3 piece Buffalo horn; F) 1 piece Rhino horn; G) 2 piece Rhino horn with joining silver band.
Brass and Ivory were also used. Reports of SOLID Gold leave me skeptical because of the weight; gold plated metal or hollow cast gold seem more likely. Please, note that when Buffalo horn was used, BY NECESSITY, construction was ALWAYS of two or three pieces; I have one with FOUR pieces, but that's very unusual. Also, when Buffalo horn was used, the top cross piece was quite thin. When Rhino horn was used, the top piece usually extended to, and beyond, half of the total length of the grip. Comments?

[Flavio]

Hi Roano, please write a reference book on Ethiopian weapons!!!!! :)

Flavio

[Jeff D]

Hi Ron,

Just a note to say i really appreciate what you are doing here. Just wish I could contribute.

All the Best
Jeff

P.S. Can I preorder your book :)

[roanoa]

This time I want to share with you four of my best pieces. Best because they are complete with thier decorated scabbards. Scabbards are usually found in terrible shape, when they are not missing altogether. Ethiopian scabbards for shotels, gurades and seifs were made of tough raw hide covered with very thin leather, usually red in color, or velvet. The leather was poorly tanned and did not last very long. It became brittle and simply fell apart. Velvet had a better chance of survival.... Some scabbards were decorated with furniture in brass or silver. As pointed before in this thread, some of these furnitures were used as knives scabbards. The seif in the picture has a leather covered scabbard. The 3 gurades have velvet covered scabbards. If you have an Ethiopian sword with decorated scabbard, PLEASE post it.

[Bill M]

WOW!

have nothing like this!

I would like to contribute and keep this thread bumped up, but am running out of Ethiopian weapons. The culture fascinates me.

Is there enough interest in creating a sub-forum on Ethiopian and other North African weapons and artifacts?

I nominate Ron to moderate it! Maybe Tim and Freddy also?

[derek]

Someone, a LONG time ago, posted a comment about an old piece of film that showed two Abyssinian warriors sparring with shotels. It was described as a lot of jumping and attempting to pierce the opponent --- over the shield.

Jim McD, was it you that posted that comment? Did you actually see that film?

-d

[roanoa]

I sure would like to see that clip. In any case, my point is that, since shotels vary so much in curvature, I doubt that most of them could do any damage when used that way.

[Bill M]

Maybe they were used as giant ice picks or sugar hammers?

[derek]

I use mine as a back scratcher. Works great.

http://www.ancient-east.com/collection/2004_collection/shotels3.jpg

[roanoa]

Here's something different. The sword is Ethiopian, as per Menelik's portrait, Lion of Judah, Amharic writing, the works, (thanks, Gennady), SO what the heck is this supposed to be???? The blade is very nice and clean, hetched and plated. I believe it is British. Don't ask me why; just a feeling. On one side, it has this scene, instead of the usual quotation from the Bible in Ge'ez. What do you see??? I see two scenarios: 1) some Amhara horsemen involved in a punishing party against an unruly tribe. 2) Arabic slavetraders raiding a village. I LOVE this puzzle. I did not know this was there when I bought the sword.... Have any of you guys seen anything like this?

[derek]

Roano,

That is fantastic. Like the shotels made in Europe, this was certainly conceptualized locally and executed in Europe. I would guess something like this would be to commemorate an event. It's too deliberate and would have been even more expensive to produce than the usual imported blades. Those don't look like Italians, so what battle would it be?

-d

[Luc LEFEBVRE]

The the weapons and the religious artifacts are really neat. I have some swords with good german blades. One with a hilt that may be translucent rhino horn. Menelik period.

They even claim to have the Ark of the Covenant somewhere.

I really like the prayer scrolls / talismans.

Here is an Etiopean curiosity. About 4 inches long. Some kind of silver, probably low grade.

Any guesses? If you already know for sure, please hold off posting the answer. I think it would be fun to hear some guesses.

I have a similar, funny jewelry.
Luc

[roanoa]

Well, guys, it's been a while. Happy 2007 to all. In an attempt to revitalize this thread I am posting a couple of pictures and thoughts about rhino horn hilts used in Ethiopian swords. Having closely observed several dozens, here's my conclusion. The "core" of Rhino horn is dark gray, almost charcoal black. The "dark" part will of course vary in diameter depending on the size of the horn. From the "core" the horn will get lighter in colour and turn into an amber-yellow shade. My first picture clearly illustrates what I mean. So where do the reddish/brown hilts come from? The gorgeous hilt in the second and third pictures gives the answer. The hilt had been dyed... As one can see from the breakage, the inside of the horn is still amber yellow and the surface shows an minimal amount of penetration of the dye. I hope this gives an answer to those who believe that rhino horn comes in different colours.... Cheers.

[Bill M]

Well, guys, it's been a while. Happy 2007 to all. In an attempt to revitalize this thread I am posting a couple of pictures and thoughts about rhino horn hilts used in Ethiopian swords. Having closely observed several dozens, here's my conclusion. The "core" of Rhino horn is dark gray, almost charcoal black. The "dark" part will of course vary in diameter depending on the size of the horn. From the "core" the horn will get lighter in colour and turn into an amber-yellow shade. My first picture clearly illustrates what I mean. So where do the reddish/brown hilts come from? The gorgeous hilt in the second and third pictures gives the answer. The hilt had been dyed... As one can see from the breakage, the inside of the horn is still amber yellow and the surface shows an minimal amount of penetration of the dye. I hope this gives an answer to those who believe that rhino horn comes in different colours.... Cheers.


Hi Ron,

So you are saying that rhino horn is dyed dark, but is normally amber yellow?

I have an article quoted from "Science Daily" (November 2006) that addresses the dark places at the center.

The horns of most animals have a bony core covered by a thin sheath of keratin, the same substance as hair and nails. Rhino horns are unique, however, because they are composed entirely of keratin. Scientists had been puzzled by the difference, but the Ohio University study now has revealed an interesting clue: dark patches running through the center of the horns.

The team examined the heads of rhinos that died of natural causes and were donated by The Wilds in Cumberland, Ohio, and the Phoenix Zoo. Researchers conducted CT scans on the horns at O’Bleness Memorial Hospital in Athens and found dense mineral deposits made of calcium and melanin in the middle.

The calcium deposits make the horn core harder and stronger, and the melanin protects the core from breakdown by the sun’s UV rays, the scientists report. The softer outer portion of the horn weakens with sun exposure and is worn into its distinctive shape through horn clashing and by being rubbed on the ground and vegetation. The structure of the rhino horns is similar to a pencil’s tough lead core and weaker wood periphery, which allows the horns to be honed to a sharp point.

The study also ends speculation that the horn was simply a clump of modified hair.

“The horns most closely resemble the structure of horses’ hoofs, turtle beaks and cockatoo bills. This might be related to the strength of these materials, although more research is needed in this area,” said Tobin Hieronymus, a doctoral student in biological sciences and lead author on the study.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061106144951.htm

[spiral]

Rhino horn occurs naturaly in many colours, But sure its also easy to dye.

Spiral

[roanoa]

Hi, Bill. What I am saying is that "core" (I call it core for lack of a better term) is dark gray. It is also more compact and much harder that the rest of the horn that tend to turn amber/yellow and is certainly softer. It appears to be dusty gray in nature but polishes out to the above mentioned colour.
Hi, Spiral. You are telling me something new. I have CLOSELY examined well in excess of 60 sword. Some are more "yellow" that others. However, in all cases of reddish/brown handles, I can assure you that the horn had been dyed. Are there some naturally red/brown horns? I really don't know. I haven't seen any so far. So, please, tell me which other natural colours are there. I can also say that the horn, being made up of organic matter, is subject to deterioration and decay with noticible changes in its apperance. By the way, you guys won't probably like this (.....) but I have started treating my Ethiopian swords' handles with lanolin......

[spiral]

Sure Roanna it was a helpfull post of yours a year or so back that got me into researching Rhino horn in depth. But you didnt answear my request for further info in it so i took my own steps to find out more. {as I do with many subjects.}.

I have great respect for your hands on expierience. You have examined 5x as much rhino horn as I.

Some rhino horn can be green I have a Georgian riding crop that the head of it is translucent amber ,then greeny brown with the centre core from close to the rhinos skin alternating creamy & black. with the shaft very green & tiny cream flecks.

There are 5 types of rhino in the world, 3 of them dont live in africa I think? I dont know if that can account for some variations?

I find the Pachyderm group who publish biyearly has some material in thier past works I am sure you would find fascinating.


You can download them here.

http://www.iucn.org/themes/ssc/sgs/afesg/pachy/

I recomend volumes 30 & 34 in particular, which have many articles about rhino horn, jambiyas & the rhino horn trade.

One of my favorite referance works is "the art of rhinocerous horn carving in china" by Jan chapman who was allowed to examine siezed rhino horns in thier naturel state plus many of the words museams collection of rhino horn art.

She does agrre with you that red brown means fake or dyed rhino horn as I recall.

But the book which has some fantastic pictures in tit shows that the dark core can be present, as a core, in randoms areas or inded the whole horn can be grey black. Its not always a central core.

The book also illustrates the many colour tones present.

Apparently The yemani & Saudi arabs rate Rhino horn handles by colour, grain & of course translucency.

The yellow translucent bieng the most expensive & highly prized & indeed my Jambiya with such a handle glows like a bulb in bright sunlight, so i can see its attraction.

Apparently in yemen sesame oil is used to restore old handles, but lanolin sounds good to me.

ive used baby oil but will experiment with sessame & lanolin in futre.

Spiral

[roanoa]

Spiral. This is really great. You confirm some of my observations and give new info at the same time. I have never seen a green (or is it "greenish"?) horn. Would like to examine one, though. You are right when you say that the "dark core" does not have a precise position. I have noticed that too. Keep in touch. Black, White, Indian and Javanese. Who's the fifth? I guess I could google it...

[spiral]

thanks Roanoa, glad it was of help to you. ;)

Rhino horn is fascinating. To me & others who have seen the crop the reaction is always that its green or in some light, grey green with light flecks in the grain.

the 5th rhino type is the Sumatran, it has 2 horns but those left today the horn is only vistigal. I guess allthoughts with larger horns have been hunted out over the years so have been removed from the breeding stock.

take care ,
spiral