eBay "liquidated" my antique blade!

[adamb]

Hi all, it turns out I made a rookie error by allowing an item (antique keris) I purchased on eBay from the US to be sent to me in Australia using the ebay international shipping service. It didn't even make it out of the US; it was en route to me via DHL when it got to the Melrose Park facility in Illinois, after which the "Item [was] liquidated".

The seller was very helpful and did their best to liaise with eBay customer service, but to no avail; in the end we were both fully refunded, but from what I can gather, the whereabouts of the keris itself remain unknown to eBay.

According to eBay, the item may have been "liquidated" because US customs authority deemed it illegal to import weapons into Australia.

Does anyone have any advice/insight they can share?

What would have happened to the keris? Is there any chance of ever getting it? It is horrifying to think US customs would have actually destroyed it, as the term "liquidated" seems to imply.

Much appreciated

[Tim Simmons]

Sorry to hear this story. I would no longer import large blades into the UK these dsys just to risky with custom and the laws here. Gone are the days of free trade and customs union which we had in the EU. Life was so much richer and simple then.

.

[A. G. Maisey]

In Australia knife import laws depend on both Australian federal law and state law, in NSW there is no real problem at all, although individual uneducated officers can sometimes cause difficulty, but in some other states problems can legitimately occur. I do not know the Queensland state knife laws, but it is certain that some knives are restricted & some knives are outright banned. Keris do not fall into either category.

The first thing that needs to be done for safe import into Australia is to be able to satisfy the relevant state laws in respect of the police test --- genuine reason, hobby, collector, whatever --- then you need to obtain a B709B & a B709 --- forms that permit import & possession, usually from the Firearms Registry, these days available online.

Try searching "Queensland Knife Law:- importing knives into Queensland Australia". Betcha AI comes up with a pretty good response.

Its really just a process to be worked through, no big deal at all. But I'll bet the enlightened officials in Illinois do not have any idea that such a process even exists.

[Sajen]

This one was also confiscated by this weird Global-Shipping-Program: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17969&highlight=minasbad
When I am interested in something from ebay US sellers I always make sure that the seller don't use this system but in the meanwhile nearly all use this system, so ebay US is out of the game for me. Germany doesn't have any restrictions when it comes to swords, whether they are antique or not but these people seem to think differently. I have no clue what they are doing with the confiscicated blades!
I noticed that when the words "sword" or "dagger" is used in the description it's impossible to ship it with the GSP but when it is described as "knife" it is ok for them, for example I received this Thai knife: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=30908&highlight=Thai without any problems with the GSP.

[Ian]

This is now the fourth or fifth example I know of when edged weapons being shipped from the U.S. have (according to eBay) been confiscated by U.S. Customs. The legal basis for such confiscation has not been disclosed by Customs or eBay. This has never occurred for any other auction items that I have had shipped from the U.S., nor for any direct sales by individuals in the U.S. It is unique, as best I know, to eBay's Global Shipping Plan.

EBay has been remarkably unhelpful and uninformative about their Global Shipping Program's policies with regard to shipping edged weapons.

If thinking of buying an edged weapon on eBay I always contact the seller and ask them not to use the eBay Global Shipping option. This means revising their listing. Some are willing to do this, others will not. Some of those who will not say they trust eBay to protect their interests. Having dealt with eBay for more than 30 years, I can only say that trusting eBay is asking for trouble.

If you happen to be an eBay seller and want to sell edged weapons to customers overseas be very suspicious of using the Global Shipping Program the eBay wants you to use. For me, the cheapest and best option to ship overseas is to use Australia Post. From the U.S., the cheapest and best option to ship to Australia is via the US Postal Service. I've never had an issue with the USPS.

Ian.

[JeffS]

Keep your eye on Ebay, there are companies that sell these confiscated items on Ebay using the original photos and description and price structure - it may pop up again.

[Sajen]

Keep your eye on Ebay, there are companies that sell these confiscated items on Ebay using the original photos and description and price structure - it may pop up again.

Hi Jeff,

I never noticed this, I know that you can't post it here at the forum regarding the forum rules but can you show me examples by pm?

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

This is now the fourth or fifth example I know of when edged weapons being shipped from the U.S. have (according to eBay) been confiscated by U.S. Customs. The legal basis for such confiscation has not been disclosed by Customs or eBay. This has never occurred for any other auction items that I have had shipped from the U.S., nor for any direct sales by individuals in the U.S. It is unique, as best I know, to eBay's Global Shipping Plan.

EBay has been remarkably unhelpful and uninformative about their Global Shipping Program's policies with regard to shipping edged weapons.

If thinking of buying an edged weapon on eBay I always contact the seller and ask them not to use the eBay Global Shipping option. This means revising their listing. Some are willing to do this, others will not. Some of those who will not say they trust eBay to protect their interests. Having dealt with eBay for more than 30 years, I can only say that trusting eBay is asking for trouble.

If you happen to be an eBay seller and want to sell edged weapons to customers overseas be very suspicious of using the Global Shipping Program the eBay wants you to use. For me, the cheapest and best option to ship overseas is to use Australia Post. From the U.S., the cheapest and best option to ship to Australia is via the US Postal Service. I've never had an issue with the USPS.

I always ask myself from where they take their information! :rolleyes: For example there are only a few exceptions what's not allowed to import to Germany (for example balisongs and push daggers) but had this problem with this weird GSP several times, for example with this minasbad which got confiscated and a Luzon bolo I bought not long ago from an US seller, both items would have passed German customs without any problems. :eek:
They seem to be very uninformed!!

[Rafngard]

I never noticed this, I know that you can't post it here at the forum regarding the forum rules but can you show me examples by pm?


I am also curious about this.

Thanks,
Leif

[kahnjar1]

It has been quite some time since I imported anything from the US but I NEVER would use the Global Shipping offered by Ebay as I found it too expensive and also unreliable. I always used USPS which never gave me any trouble and was always cheaper. Some sellers who use Global will not send by any other means but it is always a good idea to ask if they will send USPS.
Stu

[werecow]

I am also curious about this.

Thanks,
Leif

Me three.

[tom22]

Ive sold two fijian clubs on ebay from the uk to the us , both through the global shipping program and both were seized , both me and the buyer were refunded , and then three weeks later they turned up on ebay again ,and still had my original photos and description , after reporting this numerous times to ebay nothing happened and eventually they sold ,
they were expensive clubs too ,one sold for £2400 ,
Ive never trusted ebay since ,
scandals

[Interested Party]

I had a Sumatran keris disappear on eBay 2 years ago. The blade was ok. The silver sleave on the sheath was beat up, but I really wanted the north Java hilt! I'm still sad and pissed! They sent me a WWII German bayonet instead and tried to claim ignorance. Scandals!

[Bryce]

G'day Adam,
I am a fellow Queenslander. I don't know how you were even able to complete the purchase on Ebay. Buying anything even vaguely related to edged weapons (even books) on Ebay is now a nightmare and requires lots of back and forth with the seller to remove any mention of the word knife/sword. It has been a few years now, but the last three times I bought swords from the US they never made it out of the country. I have given up buying anything from the US now.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Sajen]

Ive sold two fijian clubs on ebay from the uk to the us , both through the global shipping program and both were seized , both me and the buyer were refunded , and then three weeks later they turned up on ebay again ,and still had my original photos and description , after reporting this numerous times to ebay nothing happened and eventually they sold ,
they were expensive clubs too ,one sold for £2400 ,
Ive never trusted ebay since ,
scandals

Hello Tom,

Who was the seller when the confiscicated clubs turned up again? And was international shipping offered?

Regards,
Detlef

[werecow]

Do we have any indication that the sellers actually had the seized items? Or did they just copy the ad in an attempt to scam buyers?

[A. G. Maisey]

I've been a bit puzzled by the eBay use of the word "liquidated".

In financial & asset management terms it means converting an item into cash --- more to it than this, but we're not at a seminar here.

So I decided to ask AI what eBay means when they use the term "liquidated".

Here is the answer:-

When eBay’s Global Shipping Program (GSP) or International Shipping advises an item has been "liquidated," it means the item was deemed ineligible for international transport at their hub, and rather than being returned to you, it was seized and sent to a third party to be resold or destroyed. This typically occurs due to customs issues, unexpected restrictions, or logistics errors.
Key Aspects of "Liquidated" in GSP/International Shipping
• Item Disposal: Liquidated items are generally not returned to the seller. They are sold, recycled, or destroyed by the logistics provider (Pitney Bowes) that manages the hub.
• Failed Export/Import: Despite the item appearing legal to you, the hub may have identified a restriction, hazardous material designation (e.g., restricted materials, aerosols), or a logistical bottleneck, leading to rejection.
• Your Protection: If tracking confirms the item reached the Kentucky hub (or equivalent center), you are protected. eBay takes responsibility for the item from that point forward, often issuing a refund to the buyer without deducting the amount from you.
• Action Required: Monitor the case and keep the tracking proof showing the item was delivered to the hub. If the buyer contacts you, direct them to contact eBay Customer Support directly for a refund through the GSP program.
Essentially, the item was confiscated, and you should be covered for the sale amount if the tracking shows it arrived at the hub.


So it would seem that it is not a very good idea to trust eBay whether one is a buyer or a seller.

Personally, I never liked eBay much and never sold the type of things that this Forum is concerned with on eBay, nor did I buy from eBay. Ever.

[adamb]

I don't suppose any VS forumite here is an American lawyer or has a good understanding of US law around this sort of thing?

[adamb]

G'day Adam,
I am a fellow Queenslander. I don't know how you were even able to complete the purchase on Ebay. Buying anything even vaguely related to edged weapons (even books) on Ebay is now a nightmare and requires lots of back and forth with the seller to remove any mention of the word knife/sword. It has been a few years now, but the last three times I bought swords from the US they never made it out of the country. I have given up buying anything from the US now.
Cheers,
Bryce

G'day Bryce, now that you mention it, I remember one time I was unable to purchase or bid on another edged weapon (again, a keris) on eBay from a seller in New South Wales; as with you, eBay would not allow me to complete the purchase. From memory, however, there was no issue of this kind with actually purchasing the US keris on eBay. I can't explain why, but I did acquire a US address through a freight forwarding service and updated my ebay account accordingly, so maybe that helped (although I used my Australian address as shipping address in that instance).

[A. G. Maisey]

Adam, I have no knowledge of American law, in respect of this matter we are discussing, or in any other matter. However, I would put money on it that eBay is acting in accordance with agreed terms that give the shipper --- Pitney Bowes --- the legal right to dispose of any items that they consider to be unable to be imported into the destination country. It will be buried somewhere in the small print, you can bet on it. Effectively, when you signed up for the service you handed over all your rights to eBay/Pitney Bowes. Betcha.

[JeffS]

Hi Jeff,

I never noticed this, I know that you can't post it here at the forum regarding the forum rules but can you show me examples by pm?

Regards,
Detlef

Sorry, examples are old and gone but should be easy to pull this one if re-posted with a search string based on confiscated example.

[Tim Simmons]

Uk ebay will not let you bid on anything listed with the word weapon in it. Will not let bid on swords or some knives.

[Sajen]

Sorry, examples are old and gone but should be easy to pull this one if re-posted with a search string based on confiscated example.

Thank you Jeff! For this Adam need to post the keris with description and some pics. ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[adamb]

Thank you Jeff! For this Adam need to post the keris with description and some pics. ;)

Regards,
Detlef

G'day Detlef,

Here it is. Quite apart from the fact it is a wonderful old "Bugis/Malay" blade (Sumatran/Riau?) in excellent condition, it has an old paper label attached with the following inscription: "1809 Kriss Malais 490-".

Absolutely gutted to think US customs destroyed it, but I retain a (very) slim hope it might still be out there somewhere; in which case, I would greatly appreciate it if the VS forumites could keep an eye out for it.

With thanks, Adam

[A. G. Maisey]

Adam, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I very strongly suspect that we have ivory of one form or another as a component part of this keris?

If this is so, the decision to liquidate was probably based upon the ivory content rather than the weapon nature.

[adamb]

Adam, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I very strongly suspect that we have ivory of one form or another as a component part of this keris?

If this is so, the decision to liquidate was probably based upon the ivory content rather than the weapon nature.

Thanks Alan, in this case there was no mention of the hilt and buntut material in the seller's description on eBay; indeed the word 'ivory' did not appear in connection with the keris at all. I was of course hoping to be pleasantly surprised when it arrived, but from the seller's photos I could not be sure that the material was not bone or tridacna (although I believe the latter would also raise CITES issues), maybe even resin if very unluckly. It had occurred to me that US customs might seize it at the border if they inspected it and found it to be ivory, but I believed (no doubt naively) that the date of "1809" on the label would clearly show that the artefact long pre-dates the CITES agreement, and that I would be given the opportunity to make that case to US customs. Indeed, the keris was accompanied by a hard copy of paperwork proving that it had been acquired by the former owner in the early to mid 20th century.

Can anyone tell me what happens with CITES if a buyer acquires an antique from an overseas seller that they suspect/hope has an ivory component, when no mention of that is made by the seller in their description of the item?

[Sajen]

Dear Adam,

I have to say that you are either very naive and/or very uninformed! How could you possibly believe that you could import ivory (in this case, hippopotamus ivory) from one country (the USA) into another (Australia) without CITES papers?
If anyone can be held responsible for the possible destruction of this beautiful Malay Keris, then—unfortunately—it is you. Sorry!

Regards,
Detlef

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23029

[A. G. Maisey]

Adam, in the case of your keris, it was probably inspected by PitneyBowes, the ivory component was identified and that was that. End of story.

However, once Customs gets involved the outcome can vary a lot, depending on country & the Customs officers concerned.

To ship ivory legally, most especially into the USA you can be faced with high expense for verification, state laws that ban everything that even looks like ivory, immense disregard for actual law, & more or less general arrogant & "I am the law" attitude. Then there is the inbuilt Catch 22.

I've looked at this import/export of ivory over a number of years --- like about 35 years --- and I have come to the opinion I will only sell ivory within Australia, & I do have quite a lot of very valuable ivory.

The USA position on ivory is so disastrous that an extremely well known researcher & international authority on the Javanese keris gave me his collection of ivory hilts because he was concerned that if he had given those hilts along with the rest of his collection, to the museum of his university, that eventually they would be destroyed.

When thinking about USA and ivory bans, or for that matter, bans on anything & the USA, it is perhaps a good idea to remember that products sourced from kangaroos are banned in at least California, I was advised by one of the leaders of this push to ban kangaroo leather & etc, that these bans were very necessary because the Australian Kangaroo was an endangered species.

This is the sort of people we are dealing with:- ignorance coupled with a total absence of logic & good top dressing of arrogance.

[adamb]

Dear Adam,

I have to say that you are either very naive and/or very uninformed! How could you possibly believe that you could import ivory (in this case, hippopotamus ivory) from one country (the USA) into another (Australia) without CITES papers?
If anyone can be held responsible for the possible destruction of this beautiful Malay Keris, then—unfortunately—it is you. Sorry!

Regards,
Detlef

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23029

I am neither, Detlef, and you are not very polite; how can I arrange CITES papers for an object that, according to the seller's description, raises no issues CITES-wise.

[Tim Simmons]

This is just how things are, sad but we have to lump it. I would even be careful of importing items with bone handle are elements.

[adamb]

This is just how things are, sad but we have to lump it. I would even be careful of importing items with bone handle are elements.

Thanks Tim.

The eBay keris was not from a collector, it was from an estate sale. From the perspective of the seller, the keris was a random object they clearly knew very little about. The brief description the seller provided contained no information about the raw material(s) comprising the hilt and buntut. Hence, there was no mention of any of the materials or components of the keris being organic parts of animals that would fall under CITES prohibitions. I do not understand how I can apply for a CITES certificate under these circumstances based on a couple of photos of an unexplained whitish-looking material in the eBay listing. They could have been plastic/resin replacement parts for all I know.

[Sajen]

I am neither, Detlef, and you are not very polite; how can I arrange CITES papers for an object that, according to the seller's description, raises no issues CITES-wise.

Hello Adam,

I woke up at 4 a.m., took a look at this thread, and was deeply shocked when I saw the auction photos you posted. I am quite certain that you knew full well that both the hilt and the foot of the scabbard are made of some variety of ivory.
Even if the keris had somehow managed to leave the USA by some fluke, it would almost certainly have been confiscated by Australian customs. It wasn't for nothing that I posted the attached thread; you could have known that this was a gamble. Incidentally, the seller also violated eBay's rules.
I couldn't find any other words this morning—sorry. It wasn't meant to be rude! I am sorry that you perceived my words as rude, but I am a person who speaks plainly.

Best regards,
Detlef

[adamb]

Hello Adam,

I woke up at 4 a.m., took a look at this thread, and was deeply shocked when I saw the auction photos you posted. I am quite certain that you knew full well that both the hilt and the foot of the scabbard are made of some variety of ivory.
Even if the keris had somehow managed to leave the USA by some fluke, it would almost certainly have been confiscated by Australian customs. It wasn't for nothing that I posted the attached thread; you could have known that this was a gamble. Incidentally, the seller also violated eBay's rules.
I couldn't find any other words this morning—sorry. It wasn't meant to be rude! I am sorry that you perceived my words as rude, but I am a person who speaks plainly.

Best regards,
Detlef

I am not interested your sorry-not-sorry apology, just an explanation as to how one would go about applying for a CITES permit through the relevant authorities in both the US and Australia when the materials in question are unidentified.

"I am quite certain that you knew full well that both the hilt and the foot of the scabbard are made of some variety of ivory."

You are quite wrong: I have seen components that, based on the (usually poor) online images, look very much like ivory (these are Australian auctions I'm talking about) that turn out to be modern resin.

[Sajen]

You are quite wrong: I have seen components that, based on the (usually poor) online images, look very much like ivory (these are Australian auctions I'm talking about) that turn out to be modern resin.

Really?
Here what you write to Alan:

Thanks Alan, in this case there was no mention of the hilt and buntut material in the seller's description on eBay; indeed the word 'ivory' did not appear in connection with the keris at all. I was of course hoping to be pleasantly surprised when it arrived, but from the seller's photos I could not be sure that the material was not bone or tridacna (although I believe the latter would also raise CITES issues), maybe even resin if very unluckly. It had occurred to me that US customs might seize it at the border if they inspected it and found it to be ivory, but I believed (no doubt naively) that the date of "1809" on the label would clearly show that the artefact long pre-dates the CITES agreement, and that I would be given the opportunity to make that case to US customs. Indeed, the keris was accompanied by a hard copy of paperwork proving that it had been acquired by the former owner in the early to mid 20th century.

Can anyone tell me what happens with CITES if a buyer acquires an antique from an overseas seller that they suspect/hope has an ivory component, when no mention of that is made by the seller in their description of the item?

[adamb]

Really?
Here what you write to Alan:

Thanks Alan, in this case there was no mention of the hilt and buntut material in the seller's description on eBay; indeed the word 'ivory' did not appear in connection with the keris at all. I was of course hoping to be pleasantly surprised when it arrived, but from the seller's photos I could not be sure that the material was not bone or tridacna (although I believe the latter would also raise CITES issues), maybe even resin if very unluckly. It had occurred to me that US customs might seize it at the border if they inspected it and found it to be ivory, but I believed (no doubt naively) that the date of "1809" on the label would clearly show that the artefact long pre-dates the CITES agreement, and that I would be given the opportunity to make that case to US customs. Indeed, the keris was accompanied by a hard copy of paperwork proving that it had been acquired by the former owner in the early to mid 20th century.

Can anyone tell me what happens with CITES if a buyer acquires an antique from an overseas seller that they suspect/hope has an ivory component, when no mention of that is made by the seller in their description of the item?

Yes really. When the material is completely unidentified, in fact when the seller's extremely sparse description of the item does not even mention or allude to the whitish-coloured material at all, what is the procedure for applying for a CITES permit through both the US and my home country?

[Sajen]

I am not interested your sorry-not-sorry apology, just an explanation as to how one would go about applying for a CITES permit through the relevant authorities in both the US and Australia when the materials in question are unidentified.

Accept my apology or don't—that is entirely up to you. You state that, according to the label, the keris dates back to 1809; did plastic materials even exist back then?
Ivory of some sort always needed a CITES certificate, sadly. When you had been informed you should have known this.

And as a collector, I assume that you knew full well that it was, in all likelihood, ivory. In this case, it makes absolutely no difference whether the seller knew this or not. Ignorance plays absolutely no role in this instance.

[adamb]

Accept my apology or don't—that is entirely up to you. You state that, according to the label, the keris dates back to 1809; did plastic materials even exist back then?
Ivory of some sort always needed a CITES certificate, sadly. When you had been informed you should have known this.

And as a collector, I assume that you knew full well that it was, in all likelihood, ivory. In this case, it makes absolutely no difference whether the seller knew this or not. Ignorance plays absolutely no role in this instance.

It wasn't an apology, so there's nothing to accept.

I have a 19th century Moro kris with a replacement component made from plastic or resin of some kind - in any case, you read what I wrote before: for all I know, I thought the whitish-coloured material could be modern replacement parts.

If I had known what it was and I had all the information, I would have applied for the CITES permit(s).

You keep (plainly) asserting that I am ignorant, so explain to me (third time I've asked): What is the procedure for applying for a CITES permit, which requires specifying the listed species in question, when you do not know if the material in question is even of an organic nature?

[Lee]

The recriminations need to stop. Back to the topic!

[Sajen]

You keep (plainly) asserting that I am ignorant, so explain to me (third time I've asked): What is the procedure for applying for a CITES permit, which requires specifying the listed species in question, when you do not know if the material in question is even of an organic nature?

I had this issue years ago with a dagger I bought/auctioned by a Swiss auction house, you need an export CITES paper and an import CITES paper, at this time the auction house has been very helpful.
Here what AI stated:

CITES documentation consists of mandatory permits and certificates required for the international import, export, or re-export of endangered animals and plants, including parts or products. These documents, regulated by a treaty, ensure trade is legal, sustainable, and traceable. The required paperwork is verified at customs and depends on the species' protection level.Key Aspects of CITES DocumentationPermit Types: Export permits, import permits, re-export certificates, and certificates of origin are the main documents.Appendices I, II, & III: The type of permit depends on which CITES appendix the species is listed under, with Appendix I requiring the strictest control.Documentation Required:Export Document: Valid copy of the permit from the exporting country.Import Permit: Necessary for Appendix I species, often requiring evidence of legal acquisition.Scientific Documentation: Legal acquisition certificates for scientific purposes.Live Animal Transport: Specific documentation regarding the housing and care of live animals during transport is often needed.Key Information & ProceduresIssuing Authorities: Permits are issued by the designated Management Authority in each country.EU Requirements: Within the EU, strict documentation is required for Annex A species, and import/export permits are needed for trade outside the EU.Verification: Customs officials at border inspection posts verify the documentation upon import or export.In-Transit Requirements: Shipments moving through a country still require a valid CITES document from the country of origin to the destination.For official information regarding documentation in Germany, the Federal Agency for Nature Conservation (BfN) provides detailed guidelines and forms.

It's an not easy procedure but I think that in your special case it's to late and you would need the help of the seller.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Forgot to mention what AI tells us under which regularmentations falling hippo ivory since I am pretty sure that the ivory components of the keris in question are made from:

Hippopotamus ivory (teeth and tusks) falls under CITES Appendix II.Listing: Included in Appendix II since 1995.Definition: Species in Appendix II are not necessarily threatened with extinction, but trade must be strictly regulated to avoid over-exploitation.Trade Rules: International trade is allowed, but it requires the issuance of export permits, ensuring that the specimens were legally obtained and that the trade is not detrimental to the survival of the species.Status: A proposal in 2022 to uplist Hippopotamuses to Appendix I (prohibiting commercial trade) was not approved.

[Sajen]

And another note: ebay doesn't allow to post ivory of any sort, so a business due ebay wouldn't be possible so I guess that the listing was illegal due ebay rules. This would have been different by a private deal but you would need the help of the seller with CITES export permission.

[adamb]

I had this issue years ago with a dagger I bought/auctioned by a Swiss auction house, you need an export CITES paper and an import CITES paper, at this time the auction house has been very helpful.
Here what AI stated:

CITES documentation consists of mandatory permits and certificates required for the international import, export, or re-export of endangered animals and plants, including parts or products. These documents, regulated by a treaty, ensure trade is legal, sustainable, and traceable. The required paperwork is verified at customs and depends on the species' protection level.Key Aspects of CITES DocumentationPermit Types: Export permits, import permits, re-export certificates, and certificates of origin are the main documents.Appendices I, II, & III: The type of permit depends on which CITES appendix the species is listed under, with Appendix I requiring the strictest control.Documentation Required:Export Document: Valid copy of the permit from the exporting country.Import Permit: Necessary for Appendix I species, often requiring evidence of legal acquisition.Scientific Documentation: Legal acquisition certificates for scientific purposes.Live Animal Transport: Specific documentation regarding the housing and care of live animals during transport is often needed.Key Information & ProceduresIssuing Authorities: Permits are issued by the designated Management Authority in each country.EU Requirements: Within the EU, strict documentation is required for Annex A species, and import/export permits are needed for trade outside the EU.Verification: Customs officials at border inspection posts verify the documentation upon import or export.In-Transit Requirements: Shipments moving through a country still require a valid CITES document from the country of origin to the destination.For official information regarding documentation in Germany, the Federal Agency for Nature Conservation (BfN) provides detailed guidelines and forms.

It's an not easy procedure but I think that in your special case it's to late and you would need the help of the seller.

Regards,
Detlef

This does not explain how a buyer is supposed to start this complicated process when the whitish material in question, which is not described in the eBay listing, might not even be ivory. And where to draw the line with this? Should buyers also insist that sellers (who barely know what they have their hands on in the first place) have all the wooden components of a Keris dress scientifically investigated on the off chance these elements are made from a species of Southeast Asian timber that is on the CITES list?

[adamb]

In any case, as I said to begin with, eBay customer service informed me that the keris was "liquidated" because the carrier/US customs deemed it to be a prohibited import in Australia (i.e., a weapon); they said nothing about it being seized because of ivory or anything to do with CITES regulations.

[Ian]

Gents,

I think the ivory issue is unlikely to be the reason for Adam's keris being seized. I have heard of other items being confiscated because there is a belief that anything labeled as a weapon will be problematic importing onto Australia. This takes staff time for the shipping company (in this case Pitney-Bowes) at the Australian end. I have formed the opinion that P-B has developed a policy that anything suggesting a weapon cannot be sent to Australia because it can cause them problems entering the country, eating up staff time, and losing them money.

The major shipping companies (UPS, DHL, FedEx, etc.) charge exorbitant fees for shipping from the US to Australia. This is because they are shipping companies, not a postal service. All shipments go through a formal Customs review coming into the country when using a shipping comapny. I have had no such problems when items have been sent via USPS (a postal service).

For auction items shipped via one of these shipping companies, I am plagued with requests for documentation. I must provide a copy of the purchase order prepared by the seller. The item descriptions often contain mistakes and use certain words that trigger a nasty response from Customs. For example, sellers should never use the word "dagger" in their description. The official Australian Customs" and Victoria Police Dept's definition of a dagger is a symmetrical, double-edged blade, where the edge extends the whole length (or nearly the whole length) of the blade. However, if the seller labels a knife as a dagger, Australian Customs will treat it as of it meets the legal definition. This can present a problem for importers of keris into Australia.

Recent laws in some (but not all) Australian States have been poorly written to address concerns about machetes, which have been used by juvenile gangs and others in street fighting and home invasions. These laws are so badly written that any large knife, bayonet, or sword can fit the definition of a machete. "Machete" is another term that should never be used to describe a knife entering this country.

Then we have laws and regulations covering edged weapons that might possibly be classified as concealed weapons. The cut off is an overall length of about 14 inches. Thus, everyday multi-purpose sheath knives, folding knives, and even box cutters are suspect and may require special permission to import. Strangely, kitchen knives and butchers' knives are not considered potential weapons.

To legally import edged weapons requires a permit from the State Police department where the applicant resides. In my State (Victoria), this requires a Form B709B, which is issued by the Police Commissioner's office. Application must be made for each individual item that is being imported using Form 1190. The process for each State differs, and the application process can take several weeks. Only individuals who have satisfied certain criteria are eligible to apply for such a permit to import. Achieving the status of "bona fide collector" is one way. This requires another layer of bureaucratic red tape that must be navigated every three years, and entitles that person to apply for an import permit.

Being a collector of edged weapons in my part of Australia is a marathon of bureaucratic hurdles put in place to make the public feel safer (notice I said feel safer).

End of rant! :(

[Sajen]

This does not explain how a buyer is supposed to start this complicated process when the whitish material in question, which is not described in the eBay listing, might not even be ivory. And where to draw the line with this? Should buyers also insist that sellers (who barely know what they have their hands on in the first place) have all the wooden components of a Keris dress scientifically investigated on the off chance these elements are made from a species of Southeast Asian timber that is on the CITES list?

Like I said before, ebay doesn't allow you to list any sort of ivory. I am pretty sure, from my experience, that the "white parts" of the keris in question are from hippo ivory. I can only provide what I know from my own experience and what AI provide, this I have posted.
Regarding tropical wood, I took yesterday a parcel from my local customs which coming from GB (I am located in Germany), the customer asked me about the used wood from one of the scabbards, I claimed that it's not a "forbidden" wood according to CITES, it was OK with him but I guessing that it don't will become more easy in future, it will be a challenge in future I guess. I don't make this rules! :D

[Sajen]

Should buyers also insist that sellers (who barely know what they have their hands on in the first place) have all the wooden components of a Keris dress scientifically investigated on the off chance these elements are made from a species of Southeast Asian timber that is on the CITES list?

I can tell you that ebay had in the past removed a listing of a knife with horn handle because I haven't stated which sort of horn it is! :eek: When I now list something with horn I state it's goat horn, water buffalo horn and so on.
Like I said before, it doesn't become simpler to sell or to buy internationally items which are in our interest in the future.
BTW, you should be happy that it was confiscated in the States and not by the Australian customs, the trouble and penalty you would have gotten I don't want to have.

[A. G. Maisey]

This thread has moved away a bit from the way in which it began. In this case I do not think that this is an undesirable thing, but rather we have moved into an area of discussion that in my opinion it is essential that all of us who move edged weapons across borders, & who might like to move ivory, & other regulated substances across borders, need to understand.

In so far as edged weapons & Australia are concerned, I do not find the Federal laws & regulations to be at all difficult to navigate. In the past, some of the people involved in administering these laws have been difficult, but that simply requires a re-education of those people, which can be achieved by working through the process. This can be time consuming and annoying, but really, not all that difficult.

The state laws & regulations are another matter, & entry of an item into Australia depends upon satisfying the requirements of State laws & regulations, as well as Federal. Ian lives in Victoria, which has had notoriously difficult legislation to navigate, for people with an interest in the type of things that are discussed here. I live in New South Wales, our legislation can be no less daunting than Victoria's legislation, but it can be worked through, it is just a matter of working through a process, and in all honesty it has never caused me any real difficulty at all. It has cost me time, it has never cost me money, & I have rather enjoyed the interactions with politicians & the bureaucracy.

However, when we need to address the ivory matter, that is an entirely different kettle of fish. Once you enter the ivory arena you are faced with hurdles that truly are impossible to jump, circumvent, or crawl under, and when you have paid out the not inconsiderable amounts of money required to obtain the necessary documentation, you then find that you are faced with a truly magnificent Catch 22.

To illustrate the idiocy & illegality that surrounds the ivory matter in America, & has done so even before the current administration, it is educational to be aware of the Harpsichord Incident that occurred in 2014. I had forgotten all the details of this abomination of American bureaucracy, so I asked AI to write the outline of it for me. Here is the short, sad story of the Persecuted Harpsichord:-

AI generated

In 2014, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) agents seized an 18th-century antique French harpsichord from a home in Connecticut because its keys were veneered with pre-Convention elephant ivory. The seizure was part of intensified enforcement of stricter ivory ban regulations under the Endangered Species Act, targeting ivory trade despite the instrument's age. [1, 2, 3]

Key Details of the Matter:

• The Instrument: A valuable 18th-century harpsichord featuring original ivory keyboard veneers.

• The Action: FWS officials seized the antique, highlighting the difficulty in transporting or selling historic instruments with ivory, regardless of their historical significance or pre-ban origin.

• Context: While owning ivory is legal, the sale, import, or interstate commerce of elephant ivory is highly regulated and often prohibited, catching many collectors and musicians off guard.

• Significance: The case emphasized that even antique ivory (from before 1975) is subject to strict regulations, prompting many to use alternatives like wood, bone, or mammoth ivory in restorations. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
This incident created significant concern among musicians and collectors regarding the legal standing of historical pianos, harpsichords, and organs with ivory keys. [1, 2]

• Ivory on organ keys - MusicaSacra Church Music Forum


The moral of this story might be that where ivory is concerned one does not even mention "ivory" & "America", in the same breath.

I am not certain of the truth of what I am about to write, but this has been mentioned to me by a couple of American citizens, so it might have some substance. It would seem that some states in the USA are considering making it a Capital Offence to pronounce the word "ivory" in a public place.

[Oriental Armament Collection]

eBay's forwarding service is really terrible. I bought two full-length fourteen-centimeter Chinese KaiXin knives on eBay. The seller chose eBay's forwarding service, and as a result, both knives were confiscated, said to be prohibited items. In reality, they were only fourteen centimeters. Not long after, I surprisingly found one of them being sold on eBay, so I had to buy it again. As long as you don’t choose the forwarding service, the items will not be confiscated.

[Lee]

I have no significant negative personal experience with eBay/Pitney-Bowes Global Shipping Program, but when I was selling Lew's collection I regularly read eBay's own shipping forum and other forums and I encountered many horror stories. Apparently, the GSP would repackage the items, so an original packer's care could become irrelevant for the onward journey. As I remember, one buyer of computer equipment was outraged at the seller because the item was thrown loose into a box and received broken. The seller claimed he had packed with care and a change in weight corroborated this claim. So, in the present case, a determination that there was a CITES issue likely was made when the item was opened for inspection at the GSP.

Lew had a nice collection of Sudanese arm daggers. eBay would reject them based on US government sanctions. They even provided a link to a government website that laid out detailed well targeted and reasonable restrictions that clearly did not apply to my listing. Fortunately, 'East African' substituted for 'Sudanese' reliably fixed my problem then. A friend has similar problems currently on Etsy.

I suspect that these marketplaces will move on from simple trigger words to using an AI process that can 'evaluate full text and images in a listing. I wonder if this will work any better.

[Rick]

As I read this, I'm pretty much convinced that as I lighten up my collection because I'm approaching 80 years. It will never be through eBay, more likely through this site, and I will not send anything to addresses outside of the US.

Then there's tariffs, another bucket of worms.....:rolleyes:

Alan,
this country is a very weird place, but I wouldn't wager a red cent on the death sentence for the word you mentioned. Notice how I dodge it here.;)
Auction houses here move a lot of antiques containing forbidden natural material/s.
Federal laws often conflict with State laws and often never get straightened out.
I'll leave off politics now...

[Ian]

As I read this, I'm pretty much convinced that as I lighten up my collection because I'm approaching 80 years. It will never be through eBay, more likely through this site, and I will not send anything to addresses outside of the US...Rick,

I understand exactly why you may feel this way. I'm also approaching 80 and am disposing of many of my edged weapons. For many years I have had a list of countries that I don't export to. Recently, I have added the U.S. to that list because the process of sending items to the U.S. has become overly onerous, especially in relation to tariffs. When exporting to the U.S., the U.S. Customs requires that the exporter pays all import duties before allowing the item into the country--typically, the importer pays the import fees. I don't know of another country that does that.

Conversely, the country that is easiest to export from is presently the U.S. Rather than confining yourself to the U.S., I think you are in the best position to export your items to overseas buyers. Just not through eBay.

Regards, Ian

[DaveA]

Hi all, it turns out I made a rookie error by allowing an item (antique keris) I purchased on eBay … the "Item [was] liquidated".


I definitely feel your pain, not only for losing the keris but not knowing what happened to it. Several years ago, I lost three valuable and rare swords shipped to me by a reputable dealer in Europe. They were recorded as going into US customs. They never came out. That is where the story ends. Tracing from both Europe and the US, pleas for information from customs gathered no more info. Gone. I don’t know if they were sold or destroyed (maybe some questionable materials?). I think I bought one more item from another collector in Germany afterwards, but since then I have not taken any more chances with buying outside the US. It is a sad situation.

Dave A.

[DaveA]

…
I noticed that when the words "sword" or "dagger" is used in the description ….

I always advise sellers to describe items (when they must) as “antique collectible metallic art”

It is true enough!

Dave A.

[DaveA]

G'day Detlef,

Here it is. …
Absolutely gutted to think US customs destroyed it, …

Adam, I have little doubt that the hilt, if inspected, would have triggered suspicions regarding CITES. That’s all they need to confiscate and destroy something…unless you have a “certificate of antiquity.” So sorry for this!

https://www.fws.gov/international-affairs/cites