Dagger ID & Verification Requested

[RobT]

Hi All,

I don’t recognize this type of dagger which is in very good condition. Both of these factors make me suspicious. On the other hand, save for some blade grind irregularities, the entire ensemble appears to be very well done and the blade is quite lethal.
The blade measures 9.5” (24.13 cm) long, 1.75” (4.445 cm) across the flat at the hilt, and .25” (6.35 mm) thick at the ricasso.
If the hilt and the sheath fittings aren’t silver, somebody did a very good job of making them look like it. Somehow, the work on the hilt and sheath reminds me of what is seen on kothimari khukris.

Sincerely,
RobT

[werecow]

The bird's head reminds me of some Indian swords. e.g. (https://www.liveauctioneers.com/price-result/important-18th-c-mughal-indian-shamshir-sword-with-exquisite-gold-damascened-mounts-bird-head/)

[not2sharp]

Hi All,

I don’t recognize this type of dagger which is in very good condition. Both of these factors make me suspicious. On the other hand, save for some blade grind irregularities, the entire ensemble appears to be very well done and the blade is quite lethal.
The blade measures 9.5” (24.13 cm) long, 1.75” (4.445 cm) across the flat at the hilt, and .25” (6.35 mm) thick at the ricasso.
If the hilt and the sheath fittings aren’t silver, somebody did a very good job of making them look like it. Somehow, the work on the hilt and sheath reminds me of what is seen on kothimari khukris.

Sincerely,
RobT

Kothimora khukuries are usually decorated in silver or gold. If the knife were intended for well-to-do patrons it would be dressed and finished accordingly. They would know what silver is, what gold is and what good workmanship looks like. This knife lacks that and was likely intended for the casual buyer who lacks experience and can be persuaded that this represents a quality heirloom. Btw, ignore the decorations and focus on the blade. It’s the most important component and the first thing that needs to be mastered on an upscale knife.

N2s

[RobT]

Not2sharp,

Well, you’re saying that the metalwork of the hilt and on the sheath of the item in question is second rate? All I can say in response is that you must be acquainted with kothimora of a far higher type than I have ever seen. This includes virtually every kothimora item that I have seen on this forum (and the ones on the now defunct khukri forum). Perhaps you could show us the kothimora items from your collection that markedly exceed the quality of the one I have presented?

Sincerely,
RobT

[Patterson25]

Hi,

I believe this is a good Indian dagger from around 1900–1920, likely from the colonial period. You might also try searching for “Indian Bowie knives” for comparison.

Best,

[RobT]

Hi All,

Just a little update. Since there was a slight amount of rust on the blade, I gave it a day long soak in Evaporust. A soak of that duration will reveal mechanical damascus but I don’t know for sure if it will show crucible damascus. The blade shows no mechanical damascus pattern. Sometime in the future, after thoroughly cleaning the blade, I will try a 3% nital solution which will bring out a crucible damascus pattern if present. Testing the sheath furniture with silver testing solution showed that the metal is a very low grade silver. Thus far, Patterson25’s hypothesis appears possible.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Patterson25]

Hi,
I found some stuff for you, described as
Lovely Quality 19th C. Anglo-Indian Hunting Dagger Knife for English Officer of Indian Colonial Regiments. sold in 2021
Blade looks similar to yours. with a central fuller.

[Ian]

Patterson25,

That's a nice Anglo-Indian knife. The hilt is definitely Indian of a style found in the 1890s through to about 1920, and made for sale of items to those who travel. The sheath is also Indian. The blade and guard, however, look European—perhaps German.

[RobT]

Patterson25,

As Ian said, a nice Anglo-Indian knife. Most of the ones of this type that I have seen have curved blades like the example shown below. I don’t know if they were made for those who travel per se. Every one I have seen is well made. I think they were made for upper echelon members of the British Raj. I am hoping that the dagger I presented to start this thread is another such example, just made at the very end of the British Raj.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Rick]

Maybe it's the lighting, but the blade looks very crude.
Almost uncompleted.

[Patterson25]

Hi,
I forgot to mention your pommel with parrot head and chased metalwork, it should be from Northern India or Kutch...

[RobT]

Patterson25,

The parrot’s head hilt you show is one of the two things that worry me. Your example is a recognizable type (see the thread recently started by Alex [When it comes to Indian arms - Indian Zoomorphic Daggers). My hilt doesn’t look enough like what you show (or what is shown in Alex’s thread) for me to really be comfortable. One very notable difference is the way the hilt sits in the sheath. Although the hilt and sheath of my dagger fit together snugly and very well, the seating process is different than what is seen on the classic examples. I intend to test for crucible damascus on the outside chance (slim to none) that the blade may be older than the rest of the ensemble, but I have a feeling that the earliest date for my dagger would be just prior to Indian independence (1947) and, given the very good condition of the entire piece), it may be considerably younger than that (which is the second thing that worries me).

Sincerely,
RobT

[Ian]

... Most of the ones of this type that I have seen have curved blades like the example shown below. I don’t know if they were made for those who travel per se. Every one I have seen is well made. I think they were made for upper echelon members of the British Raj. ... Rob,

See this thread https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23518

Ian.

[RobT]

Ian,

Thanks for the link. What caught my eye immediately was thinreadline’s comment about these knives being sold as midshipman’s dirks. I have seen the “Pure Steel/Victory” ones sold on this side of the pond with the same attribution but I have never seen the karud style versions sold as such. Sometimes the “Pure Steel/Victory” etching is ground off to make the allegation more plausible. Unless they are being sold as midshipman’s dirks, I have found the “Pure Steel/Victory” types typically go for under $50 (sometimes way under) but the karud types generally command prices over $50 and the larger they are, the more costly they get. I saw a humongous one (pristine condition, w/o sheath) being sold by a very knowledgeable dealer for $300. He has been in the game for a really long time and knows his stuff both as connoisseur and a dealer so he must have been pretty confident that he was going to get his price. Especially since he knew that I would have bought it on the spot had the price been more reasonable. I tend to agree with Kubur, Sajen, and Jon MB that the karud style knives are older (probably 19 century) and better made than the “Pure Steel/Victory” knives which I think are at best 20th century and most probably just post WWII.
Because it is unusual (the only double edge symmetrical straight blade version I have ever seen), I have added a “Pure Steel/Victory” variant to this thread. Like the “Pure Steel/Victory” knives, I suspect that the knife that started this thread was made anywhere from the beginning of the 20th century to just post WWII.

Sincerely,
RobT

[mariusgmioc]

While not a historical piece, the knife presented is a reasonably good quality 20th century knife made for the tourist market.

The blade is most likely not forged but simply ground down from a stock bar of low grade steel, hence the straight and rather bulky shape. Giving it the slender and recurved shape characteristic to the "mughal" daggers would have involved much more grinding and that was avoided by giving it the shape we see.