An interesting .... what is it?

[DaveA]

Hello all,

I don't mean to lean on the community so much for ID. I'm pretty good at doing my own research. This one has me stuck. Any thoughts?

The scabbard and hilt are all bone. Three sections for the scabbard. They fit together seamlessly, including a hemispherical bone cap at the bottom of the scabbard.

The pommel is brass as are two rings, one around the scabbard with rings for carrying it, the other at the base of the hilt, nailed to the bone to secure it. The fit to the scabbard is excellent. The brass has an embossed floral design.

Overall length is 15 inches. The blade alone is 8 1/4 inches long. The dagger is 3/4 inch wide uniformly until it tapers symmetrically to a point. The is a small flat ricasso before the cutting portion of the blade, a straight dagger with no distal taper. It is sharpened on both sides. Until I clean and polish it, it is hard to say definitively whether there is a pattern to the steel or I am just seeing wear and tear.

The simple black and red floral pattern on the scabbard is very skillfully done. It is quite simple but I hope it is distinct enough that somebody recognizes it.

Dave A

[Rick]

The metal work reminds me strongly of this style.
North Africa? Also, the two ring mounting style.

[gp]

the floral decoration makes me think of an islamic nature / origin but for the Magreb the lines are a little too thin / refined.
Also its style and the blade does indicate another direction: Caucasus or even / rather one of the Central Asia countries...

[DaveA]

Thanks GP.

I was thinking Caucasian, perhaps near the border with Turkey. The bone material somewhat matches a bone hilt in a Georgian kindjal from that area in my collection. The decorative red and black floral is what is throwing me off that track.I have not seen it before.

Dave A.

[gp]

Thanks GP.

I was thinking Caucasian, perhaps near the border with Turkey. The bone material somewhat matches a bone hilt in a Georgian kindjal from that area in my collection. The decorative red and black floral is what is throwing me off that track.I have not seen it before.

Dave A.

Hi Dave,

the red ist often used in Ottoman influenced regions; carnelian or also called cornelian
Less expensive than coral ( which is often used for the more expensive ones) and also easier to use when a smaller size is required and still keep the good look.
Have a look at these examples:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=288190&postcount=12

The black could be used specially to create a more or better visual contrast against the white background of the bone; also oftern seen in calligraphic decorations of drawings at that time in Islamic regions.
It is very soft, yet pronounced present which does make it look good looking, elegant I dare say

best regards

Gunar

[DaveA]

On close inspection, The red dots are indeed crystals set into holes in the bone. The black lines are very delicate. I don't feel any surface texture difference to the lines, but they are in very good condition, unlike the blade and other accoutrements. Thanks for the lead.

Dave

[Tatyana Dianova]

I am with Rick thinking of Moroccan origin. The metalwork on the scabbard is clearly Moroccan - I have Moroccan jewelry with the same pattern. As well the two rings look pretty much like on Moroccan daggers. The double-sided ricasso on the blade and the blade finish is similar to later Koumiya blades as well.

[Rick]

I'll also add that we often see Koummyas dressed in Camel bone hilts and scabbards, for what that's worth.

[Ian]

I'm inclined to agree with Rick and TD. Southern Morocco has a strong Bedouin influence and camel bone would be readily available there. On the other hand, the motifs do not look particularly Moroccan to me.

[gp]

thank you all for your input but I am still not convinced 100%.

root cause:

indeed the "rude" metal decoration would imply a Berber / Tamazight origin in contrast with the more sophinsticated Arab and Sephardic ones in the Maghreb region.
FYI: this difference can also be found in the jewelry ( bracelets, pendants, chains, etc.) of Berbeber versus Arab and Sephardic,, but my doubts are based on the "red" decoration:

in the Magreb coral is used, one way or another but these little dots clearly show to me to be cornelain ( unless it would be colored glass of a more modern made weapon) as this chalcedonye mineral is not used in that region.
Than again I might be mistaken....
To be 100% sure I would need to see it and hoild it in my hand.
Also the "black" line is to thin to be Berber...I believe it to be either a black gemstone or a coloring by some kind of inkt,which "sophistication"one would see more often in the Arab and Ottoman world ( the latter stretching top the Caucasus and East).

Also the type I have not seen in that region, but again I am not an expert even having lived in Morocco and Egypt....

Looking forward to see more examples to prove the case of the above determination, neither offence nor disrespect intended ! Much obliged
Nevertheless it is a veryt nice weapon which would suite any collection ! ☺☼☺

best regards

Gunar

[Bob A]

The beads inset appear to be faceted, which makes me wonder if they are indeed carnelian. Faceting tiny stone beads would require considerable effort, or so it seems to me. Carnelian decoration would be the only indication for me of an Ottoman/Central Asian attribution.

Very interesting knife/puzzle.

[gp]

The beads inset appear to be faceted, which makes me wonder if they are indeed carnelian. Faceting tiny stone beads would require considerable effort, or so it seems to me..
Indeed faceted does raise some questions and could indicate glass cut....
Most interesting questions more and more...:)

[DaveA]

Here are two new pictures that may be helpful. The lighting is coming from the side. This gives some shadows and thus we can infer shape. What I see:

The red dots are pits, with both red coloring and bits of crystal-like red material
The black lines are metallic inlay that is slightly above the surface and casts a shadow


- Dave A.

[gp]

Here are two new pictures that may be helpful. The lighting is coming from the side. This gives some shadows and thus we can infer shape. What I see:

The red dots are pits, with both red coloring and bits of crystal-like red material
The black lines are metallic inlay that is slightly above the surface and casts a shadow


- Dave A.

excellent pics! which does raise more questionmarks; defenitly no cornelian but what it is, I can't say ; perhaps other forum members do recognize it..?

As for the black (metal?) inlays: it seems to me too "refined" for the Moroccan tribal ones but more into the Ottoman and or Arab Middle East worlds.
Nevertheless I have seen some Algerian ones with black inlay, although thicker...

Guess best somebody from those regions could perhaps give an indication?
as it still remains a mystery to me but also a beautiful little dagger

[Bob A]

I've seen delicate silver scrollwork inlays in an early (horn) Tuareg dagger hilt. Of course the black color is from oxidation.

[gp]

I've seen delicate silver scrollwork inlays in an early (horn) Tuareg dagger hilt. Of course the black color is from oxidation.

Thnx a lot for this insight. Might indeed be a good indication but would define it as not Moroccan as the Tuareg region is way more south or more east towards Algeria and Libyia...
Still remains the nature of the red stone open....:confused:
Back checking the stones used by the Tuaregs, I could only find cornelian, red agate, red glass beads and red crystal ( with further finding more details which crystal it is...)
but ....Tuareg daggers do have quite a lot a crosslike decoration at the bottom of the scabbard or top of the handle...which is lacking from this beautiful bone dagger

[kahnjar1]

My guess is a Moroccan or Algerian Genoui dagger. Certainly it has the traits of other daggers from that region. Nice piece!
Stu

[gp]

My guess is a Moroccan or Algerian Genoui dagger. Certainly it has the traits of other daggers from that region. Nice piece!
Stu

Indeed, this comes closest

Also interesting:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29752

Nevertheless first time ever I have seen DaveA’s very nice dagger!

[DaveA]

Thank you to all who have commented. The consensus on the origin of the knife is Morocco. Exactly what to call it is still up in the air. The decorative design is still is a mystery.

Now we wait for more evidence.

Dave A.