Help to identify a sword

[Almonzo]

Hello all members,

I'm new here but I read a lot of the forum threads and like edged
weapons.

I have this strange sword to identify please.

For most of my friends it is just a fantasy sword but I think it is good.

[Lee]

Instructions as to how to attach photos to threads are provided here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13631

[Oriental Armament Collection]

Hello all members,

I'm new here but I read a lot of the forum threads and like edged
weapons.

I have this strange sword to identify please.

For most of my friends it is just a fantasy sword but I think it is good.

Welcome! I'm new here too, and I'm looking forward to seeing your sword.

[Almonzo]

Hello thank you,
I tried , now I hope it will be ok.

Sword is a mix of medieval pommel and hilt with a celtic ? ?
guard and blade

[Ian]

Your friends may be correct but I think you will get more responses in the European Armoury, so I'm transferring it there.

Regards,

Ian

[Almonzo]

Hello, OK thank you !

I put other pictures with more light,
The blade is really thin , sharp at edges and 3-4mm at the middle
With no visible central ridge

Thank you

[Lee]

I think that you are correct in your attribution of the styles of the various components. I do not recognize the whole, perhaps something along the lines of an militia infantry sword of the early 19th century, a hunting hanger or a particularly nicely made theatrical prop with some age. Hopefully someone will have more definitive ideas.

[werecow]

My guess would be a 19th century historicism piece, though I can't say I've ever seen another like it.

[Hotspur]

Possibly from the Hollywood sand &sandal era. I saw this one years ago, listed as a prop for the silent Ben Hur. B&W era stuff.

For some reason, my first impression was the type of stuff Kirby Wise may have made during the SCA years but this has real age showing.

[francantolin]

I'll be less harsh than my comrades.
The leather-covered guard is old, and the wide, flat, and sharp blade as you said , which shows clearly some age and is made of quality steel, reminds me of my 16th-century Italian sword/storta.
See my previous post: Strange blade on Italian(?) old sword

Is it a short sword or long sword?
The hilt, even though it looks like a Viking/Norman or Celtic type, reminds me of certain long cinquedeas from the same period, 1500-1600. Clearly, the leaf-shaped blade is anachronistic. Perhaps it was a special order with a beautiful medieval pommel. What is the sword's length and weight, by the way?

Kind regards

[werecow]

What are the measurements?

To me the hilt looks to be 1.5 hand sized but the sword as a whole looks like a one handed sword, so if that is the case the proportions are a bit off as compared to historical examples (but as it happens actually do match lots of movie swords). However it is hard to judge the real measurements from the picture.

[Almonzo]

Thank you all members for the messages,
I will look for old European Italian swords .

It is a large sword, I would have mentioned that.
The total length is 97,5cm/ 38,38 inches
Weight is 1,4 kg / 3.09 pounds
Balance of the blade is 16cm away from the guard.
Largest part of the blade is 6,5cm large/ 2,56 inches and really thin ,
a little larger in the middle as I already said
It don't look like a deco piece ,
the blade is really really sharp all around the sword ; except the 5-6 first centimeters near the guard.
For a movie, I don't think it will be the best .

[Victrix]

A movie prop would likely not be sharpened.

[Lee]

...the blade is really really sharp all around the sword ; except the 5-6 first centimeters near the guard...
That pretty much dismisses the possibility of a theatrical or film prop sword!

[werecow]

For the most part... although, I have two very sharp, very banged up Indonesian swords (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=278848&postcount=26) that were apparently used in a play about the Aceh wars. :eek:

But, those are originals, and it is admittedly unlikely that a sword made as a theater piece would be sharpened.

It could still be a historicism piece or a composite of some sort, though. That is where my money is.

[toaster5sqn]

It could still be a movie sword if it was for use in a scene where the wielder cuts through a object as a demonstration, then swapped for a blunt version for the fight scenes.

Honestly it's such a mishmash of parts that I can't think of anything except movie or historicism when I look at it.

Robert

[Almonzo]

I forgot to write that when I received the sword
It was very rusty and I cleaned it with a lot of baking soda.
I wanted it shiny but maybe it is too much and help to make it seems too "clean'/fake


I found , thank you ,
this 16th large cinquedea sword who don't looks older, guard is +/- look like
The pommel is as unusual as my wheel medieval pommel.
Maybe this one is recent too ?

I wonder if there are old steel leaf blades for comparison ,
The ones I found were all bronze made,
Sure iron/ steel avoid humidity and turn to rust then dust
but it is srange that since antiquity,, laTène period.
no celtics or just leaf blades steel models have been kept with care.

[Lee]

My understanding is that the "leaf-shaped" blade form reflects the properties of the bronze they were made from and that this form is not so relevant to steel blades. It is only rarely that any early European swords survive in better than excavated relic condition leading to much suspicion whenever there is no demonstrable provenance - but happy exceptions do exist.

[Tim Simmons]

As others have said the blade looks really very nice steel with good age as in truley antique. The leather also as mentioned is well aged. I cannot believe in the theatre movie prop. The thing is put together with real skill, look at the cut line in the guard ? nice , why do that for a prop. The pommel to me is what looks kind of out of place and obviously not right to our current knowledge leading to thoughts of medieval revival. However until proven I think it may be best to keep an open mind. You know truth can be stranger than fiction, something like that. Certainly looks like it could take your arm off with ease.

[ausjulius]

I would say this is a 19th century english made fantasy swords used of gaudy panoply displays where people wanted a curtain look and didn't nessicarily can't beat up old antiques. Spain and England were the main makers of these.
France also made some as did Solingen .
The English ones have a more a European mediaeval/iron age celtic and germanic style to them.
The Spanish more a Spanish 1500s-1600s style mostly ..
Germany mostly a 1500 continental.. lanskenechts and zweihanders and such.
And the french a mix with quite a few fantasy Persian, Turkish of arab and even Roman and greek weapons made.
It was whatever was in demand for displays.
I've seen quite a few old English fantasy swords with high quality blades.
A few weeks ago I saw an 1880s fantasy Norman sword with a nicely tempered sharp blade that was (not at all in line with norman swords) 13mm in the ricasso tapering to 3mm at the tip from good shear steel. I've seen others that are low grade steel or even case hardened "steeled". Some even have cast iron fittings.
Some of the German fantasy zweihanders are bearing swords for religious parades too and have no edge. Others were made to adorn castle walks as castle tourism took off.
Many... Ofe the zweihanders in circulation are these fantasy weapons.

[CutlassCollector]

Interesting sword and discussion.
What stands out for me is the grip. It does not look as though you could get a good hold on such a long and heavy sword with that slim tapered grip.

Unless of course parts of the grip are missing and the tang has been covered over.

[francantolin]

Ausjulius, have you 1-2 pictures of the 1880 Norman sword or similar exemple
for comparison and just for pleasure to see it,

Usually , 19th reproductions would look lîke original old models,
for make money or for revival this one is really different and as Tim Simmons
mentioned, the did a really good job just for a fantasy deco sword.


In the book "the history of chivalry and armor",
I found some interesting different types of medieval sword away from usual models
( like falchions...) ,
blades, are not so far away.
The sword was from John George I, Elector of Saxony

+ norman warriors drawings who match for hilt and pommel of the sword.
I think it was the principal influence for the bladesmith/ the owner- buyer
19th century or earlier ...
Almonzo,
The best thing is to show it in an history museum to an expert or curator ( ++ sure if they have medieval pieces and weapons )
In wich country do you live ?

[Tim Simmons]

A very good post. Makes me think that perhaps it may possibly be 16th century tounament display type of thing. A processional or state functional bearers sword of the 16th century and latter. There is a photo of one here which I will find latter. German 16th century a hand and half hilt sword with a sawfish bill as the blade. Something like this. Although the item in question appears smaller that might depend on the size or importance of the office.

[Tim Simmons]

I am going to change my mind and go for a real weapon. 16th century possibly 17th. Looking and at the item, just looks too well made, great steel, really nice patina and as said before good for taking off body parts. Take it too a proper museum.

ps

Is that a mark , funny looking scratch? on the pommel. Cannot see it being used against armour. Still going with real 17th century.